←2020-12-15 2020-12-16 2020-12-17→ ↑2020 ↑all
00:01:06 <nakilon> there should be a competitive website about optimizing funge solutions
00:03:30 <nakilon> for example, measuring path length
00:04:27 <nakilon> would make for RASEL if I had another life to spare
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00:14:45 <fizzie> Back when I used to golf Befunge with friends, bounding box area was our standard metric.
00:15:06 <fizzie> There's just something very pleasing about a compact square of Befunge code with no appreciable gaps.
00:15:59 <fizzie> (I've not written anything large that I'd've applied that style to, though.)
00:22:47 <nakilon> that's actually an interesting aspect I didn't think about earlier -- the branch we are on has a 1 bit of information in itself
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00:23:51 <nakilon> it can be short but useful to get deeper into stack
00:25:13 <nakilon> fizzie I use as a metric a bytesize of the file when you save it and editor trims trailing spaces
00:26:14 <nakilon> you could use the metric of width+height to promote more squared solutions )
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00:26:48 <fizzie> Or the circumference, for round.
00:27:35 <fizzie> Well, some approximation of length of convex hull or whatever.
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00:35:47 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79446&oldid=76245 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+59) /* Input/output capabilities */ Was this discussed?
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00:45:33 <fizzie> Hmm. I was hoping day 5 part 1 would've turned out to be real short, but http://ix.io/2Ier is what I got for it.
00:51:09 <fizzie> Heh, at least I can use the same bucket sort for part 2: http://ix.io/2Iet -- also moderately happy that only took 5 minutes, and worked the first try. Somehow it's so easy to make mistakes with Befunge code.
00:51:39 <fizzie> Whoops, it's even got some dead code left over from part 1. :)
00:52:35 <b_jonas> fizzie: wouldn't bounding box area usually end up with a very narrow rectangle?
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00:53:47 <fizzie> Hmm, maybe in an actual competitive setting it might.
00:54:20 <b_jonas> fizzie: especially in variants of befunge that have long jumps
00:54:58 <b_jonas> I admit when we wrote obfuscated code in perl, a lot of them ended up as compact rectangles, but it's sort of an uninspired formatting
00:55:35 <b_jonas> so much that I gave two variants in https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=863110 , and I think the one that's not an unformatted blob is nicer
00:55:47 <b_jonas> but then befunge is different, because of its 2d control flow
01:15:30 <nakilon> oh finally I made day 2 part 2
01:16:26 <nakilon> fizzie https://dpaste.org/Crmx/slim
01:17:11 <nakilon> it's basically Befunge-like solution, those "j" are accepting just 1 and 0 and so similar to _ and |
01:17:50 <nakilon> almost in the middle there is branching that does a little of action and storing the 0 or 1
01:18:17 <nakilon> and at the end another branch uses that saved bit to chose the branch
01:18:58 <nakilon> I mean and at the end that bit is reused to branch again
01:20:59 <nakilon> *Befunge-like and no random access
01:25:34 <nakilon> "j" pointing from opposite sides are effectively the same as XORing the memorized bit
01:28:28 <nakilon> hmmmm, what if I make "?" not "go forward or reverse" but "go 1 cell forward or 2"?..
01:29:19 <nakilon> would look the same as I do with ":/j" to test for zero
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03:35:23 <nakilon> oh, fizzie, after I made it in two lines like you did https://dpaste.org/Qpzh/slim
03:35:38 <nakilon> I see that you did the same thing about storing 0 and 1 in two branches I guess
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03:37:11 <nakilon> it's almost identical, lol
05:51:50 <int-e> So, first interesting AoC day today?
05:52:02 <shachaf> What is it, Zorn's lemma?
05:52:18 <int-e> `? mapole
05:52:23 <HackEso> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6’ by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
05:52:56 * int-e thwacks shachaf with a 5.5' by 13 kg non-regulation mapole.
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08:05:53 <zzo38> Implementing the Move() function in Free Hero Mesh would be more complicated to do. Use what it says in the Hero Mesh documentation as the basic hypothesis. Figure out an experiment to distinguish it from other cases. Revise the hypothesis and make up a new experiment, etc. Some things in the Hero Mesh documentation are incomplete or unclear anyways, and I have already figured out some things difference from what it says.
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12:13:49 <esowiki> [[HTPF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79447&oldid=77971 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+0)
12:14:43 <esowiki> [[HTPF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79448&oldid=79447 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+9)
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12:17:02 <esowiki> [[HTPF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79449&oldid=79448 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+3)
12:17:34 <esowiki> [[HTPF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79450&oldid=79449 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+14)
12:17:47 <int-e> . o O ( The password of the month is solarwinds123. (too late, I know) )
12:20:04 <esowiki> [[HTPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79451&oldid=78389 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+44)
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12:43:32 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Wrongpassword1 * New user account
12:48:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79452&oldid=79378 * Wrongpassword1 * (+165)
12:48:47 <esowiki> [[User:Wrongpassword1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79453 * Wrongpassword1 * (+114) Created page with "{{retired}} This was a test. How do I delete an account on this wiki?? My pw is the username with a 2 at the end."
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13:13:32 <esowiki> [[HTPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79454&oldid=79451 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-19) Wikipedia link
13:15:05 <esowiki> [[HTPF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79455&oldid=79450 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+76) Cat, seeAlso
13:26:02 <esowiki> [[User talk:Wrongpassword1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79456 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+813) /* Account deletion appears to be impossible */ new section
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14:01:09 <b_jonas> hey look, they stopped including the normal sized frame for the default mobile phone SIM card package. the one I bought two years ago still had one. this one only has mini, micro, and Apple sizes (called standard, micro, and nano on the packaging)
14:01:38 <aaaaaa> yeah
14:04:10 <b_jonas> I guess I should call the normal one "credit card size"
14:06:07 <aaaaaa> b_jonas: we are old enough to remember these SIMs
14:06:35 <aaaaaa> But I bought my first mobile in 2000, already has "mini-SIM"
14:09:44 <aaaaaa> I even remeber the times when you had a phonebook in SIM-card
14:16:38 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> A rot or a 2swap/2dup would certainly make stack-only Befunge solutions much more plausible." => even with that, Rasel would still have the same problem: you can't erase entries from the stack if there are more than a few entries above it that you have to preserve, unless you encode a list to a bigum, which gets ugly and may be hard. so if you want to, say, merge two lists or reverse or sort a
14:16:44 <b_jonas> list, you can do it fast because of random reads but you have to keep the inputs forever, you can't discard old data.
14:17:28 <b_jonas> it's sort of like Underload without !
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14:17:42 <b_jonas> only not quite that restricted
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14:24:10 <nakilon> I don't even get the point why to change the SIM card size at all
14:29:56 <esowiki> [[Rasel]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79457 * B jonas * (+856) Created page with "'''RASEL (Random Access Stack Esoteric Language)''' is a [[fungeoid]] esoteric programming language. RASEL code is layed out as a planar array of instructions, with each inst..."
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14:33:14 <b_jonas> nakilon: changing from credit-card sized to mini makes sense, because the credit-card sized card wouldn't fit properly into current phones, at least not without it making the phone thicker. changing from mini to micro might perhaps make sense, it helps you make thin phones with two sim card slots and one SD card slots, popular and useful in Europe these days, although there do exist phones with two mini
14:33:20 <b_jonas> sized SIM card slots. I don't understand the Apple size, but Apple has its own third incompatible standards of a lot of things when two other choices are already available.
14:36:04 <b_jonas> "<nakilon> there should be a competitive website about optimizing funge solutions" => there are some golf sites that accept many languages, including Code Golf Stack Exchange, you can try to use RASEL for newly posted problems there.
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15:18:52 <nakilon> wtf, new cards are of the same thicknaess
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15:39:10 <b_jonas> nakilon: no, the Apple format is thinner
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15:40:41 * VaMpIrU Earn your BitCoin Now! https://cryptotabbrowser.com/16879401
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15:42:39 <b_jonas> which, by the way, means either that the tolerances in the curved pins in the phone are supposed to be such that the difference in thickness doesn't matter and Apple changed it for no good reason, or that Apple has deliberately made all SIM cards in normal phones work worse because their center have to be made thinner and so it's easier to get a contact error in a phone that expects a mini or micro SIM
15:42:45 <b_jonas> card
15:44:23 <b_jonas> (the truth is somewhere in between those)
15:51:55 <fizzie> One sorta-point about the nano being thinner is that you can make a more robust nano-to-micro or nano-to-mini adapter, because it can have something behind the card.
15:52:25 <b_jonas> fizzie: no it can't, because the difference is too thin for you to put anything there
15:52:44 <fizzie> That's what ETSI says is the reason, and I've seen adapters for it.
15:52:54 <b_jonas> what you have between plus the gap that will be between the back and the Apple sized card because of imperfections together will be too thick
15:53:01 <b_jonas> there are such adapters? hmm
15:53:12 <fizzie> https://docbox.etsi.org/workshop/2012/201201_SECURITYWORKSHOP/3_INTERNATIONAL_STANDARDIZATION/UICC_ETSISCP_Vedder.pdf "Thinner to allow adapters so that the 4FF can be 'clicked' into adapters for use as a 3FF SIM giving a kind of backward usability".
15:53:22 <fizzie> (4FF = nano, 3FF = micro.)
15:53:27 <fizzie> Yes, there definitely are adapters.
15:54:11 <b_jonas> I mean adapters with a back, not just adapters around the four edges in the plane
15:55:06 <fizzie> Yes, I'm pretty sure I've seen an adapter with a thin plate supporting the card.
15:55:11 <b_jonas> btw in 2018 I was using a very old SIM card, one that was only in mini size without an adapter, so I had to get a new one (for free) when I bought a new phone
15:55:13 <fizzie> Which really just makes it easier to insert.
15:55:34 <fizzie> (Without the card falling off, I mean.)
15:55:39 <b_jonas> a new phone with mini slot that is
15:55:41 <b_jonas> no
15:55:45 <b_jonas> a new phone with micro slot
15:56:51 <fizzie> I think all the current phones of this household are now 4FF, but only for the last few months.
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16:30:12 <arseniiv> int-e: do you know where lambdabot is?
16:30:29 <arseniiv> oops it’s here
16:30:33 <int-e> @bot
16:30:41 <int-e> huh
16:30:52 <arseniiv> > 2 + 3
16:31:07 <arseniiv> yep doesn’t respond in PM and here too
16:31:33 <int-e> it's sitting prettily, not consuming much memory or CPU, hrm.
16:32:27 <int-e> I'll kick it in a couple of minutes, let me see if I can get a glimpse of what it's doing first.
16:34:42 <int-e> hmm just sleeping?
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16:38:02 <int-e> arseniiv: I have no clue what happened there. I killed it and that didn't immediately disconnect it here so it may have been some semi-open TCP connection thing.
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16:40:15 <int-e> arseniiv: anyway, thanks... I wonder how often this happens
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16:48:01 <arseniiv> int-e: for the statistics, I used to ask @messages from it on a daily basis and all was more or less well. But these times I often forget to open an IRC window; though a couple of times on this and other week it responded kindly
16:49:57 <int-e> Hmm. Okay, let's hope it was a rare fluke then.
16:51:19 <int-e> Because I really don't have a clue where to start debugging this.
16:52:26 <arseniiv> intriguing! :D
16:53:23 <int-e> Back when I took over lambdabot it used to disappear for hours at a time until it was manually kicked... the reason for that were semi-open TCP connections; the Freenode server would lose/close the connection, but no RST package was ever received by the server (I infer, never looked at package captures), and lambdabot never sent anything on its own back in those days.
16:53:58 <int-e> Now it's sending regular pings so it recovers from that within minutes, usually.
16:54:20 <int-e> But, apparently, not this time.
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17:01:50 <arseniiv> unluckily I decided to check on IRC before going to sleep, so gtg bye have a nice afternorninghtevening
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17:58:05 <nakilon> the only real effect of smaller SIM card I see is that it's easier to lose
18:01:22 <int-e> these things have become so fiddly
18:02:26 <int-e> I had not heard about the flatter microsims though, somehow
18:02:56 <int-e> (thinner)
18:05:56 <int-e> But wait, Wikipedia says the 4FF (nano-SIM) are thinner because it's meant to be put into adapters for 2FF (mini-SIM) and 3FF (micro-SIM) formats, rather than as a subversion of the standard.
18:06:11 <fizzie> That's where I got that from, yes.
18:06:14 <fizzie> (We discussed it.)
18:06:26 <int-e> Yeah sorry, I'm bad at catching up on context.
18:06:53 <fizzie> I did follow [25] to check though. ;)
18:09:08 <fizzie> Didn't realize it's (nominally) thinner though. All the recent SIM's I've gotten have been those three-in-one dealies where you pop off the size you need (well, except if you need the 1FF size, but realistically...), wonder if those actually have the middle bit thinner.
18:09:21 <fizzie> Guess 0.1mm isn't exactly that noticeable.
18:09:56 <int-e> > 0.76/0.67
18:09:59 <lambdabot> 1.1343283582089552
18:10:19 <fizzie> It's all relative, of course.
18:11:53 <int-e> yeah, no clue how big the tolerances of the sim card slots are in practice, which is the real question here.
18:13:25 <nakilon> so the update to SIM card size makes the phone 0.1 mm thinner? who needs that?
18:13:54 <nakilon> it's around 1% of phone's thickness
18:14:50 <int-e> well they've shrunk the other dimensions too which presumably matters more.
18:18:38 <kmc> bring back credit card size SIMs
18:18:54 <fizzie> They do seem to "advertise" sub-millimeter thickness changes in reviews and such though. But yeah, presumably it's the reduction in area that matters more.
18:19:12 <fizzie> I haven't seen a four-in-one SIM. :/
18:20:35 <fizzie> I think I've had [12], [23] and [234], but no other combinations.
18:20:53 <kmc> I guess if they want to make them any smaller they'll need to change the standard, because 4FF is about the same size as the connector itself
18:21:05 <kmc> femto-SIM is just a dust you sprinkle into the headphone jack
18:21:11 <kmc> (except they're getting rid of those too...)
18:21:14 <fizzie> There's that eSIM thing.
18:21:45 <kmc> but that one is permanently soldered, right?
18:21:47 <int-e> ...sprinkle electrons into floating gates...
18:21:57 <fizzie> Yes, physically speaking.
18:22:09 <fizzie> Logically speaking I think you can "change" what's programmed into it?
18:22:09 <int-e> isn't it a flash ROM thingy?
18:23:01 <kmc> but I thought part of the point of SIMs is that they are like smart cards (and share some common ancestor?) and don't let you reprogram them willy-nilly
18:23:26 <fizzie> Yeah, I don't know how exactly the eSIM provisioning works.
18:23:38 <fizzie> But you're definitely supposed to be able to change providers.
18:24:49 <fizzie> "The surface mount format provides the same electrical interface as the full size, 2FF, 3FF and 4FF SIM cards, but is soldered to a circuit board as part of the manufacturing process. The eSIM format is commonly designated as MFF2."
18:25:03 <int-e> A SIM has writable memory anyway, I have a hard time imagining that they make a write only part just to keep things complicated. And there's already the immutable IMEI on the phone anyway.
18:25:53 <kmc> I suppose the idea of SIMs as carrier-trusted hardware is probably doomed anyway, since they have to be cheap to manufacture
18:25:56 <int-e> But at the same time I can imagine all sorts of deliberate barriers for the purpose of vendor lockins. So who knows.
18:26:10 <fizzie> https://www.hologram.io/blog/clearing-up-the-term-esim didn't really clear it up for me.
18:26:32 <fizzie> But at least there's a size comparison.
18:27:18 <int-e> "eSIM form factor", what the fuck are they talking about?
18:28:31 <fizzie> I think some of my Pixels have eSIM support, but my main operator (Three) doesn't bother with it.
18:28:32 <int-e> (It does make sense though... MFF2 is a standard for SMD devices that act like a SIM card)
18:28:58 <int-e> One link further: https://developer.gemalto.com/documentation/mff2-sim-cards-specs-mim-quad
18:29:21 <int-e> But AIUI, the idea was that it could also be implemented at a much smaller scale, even part of a SoC.
18:29:45 <int-e> And then "eSIM form factor" begins to lose all its meaning.
18:29:47 <fizzie> O2 does, though, so maybe I could get my secondary "I need to have this because apparently international text messages are a mess" SIM card into the same phone as the main one.
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18:33:41 <int-e> Anyway, since gemalto is a SIM card manufacturer who wants to stay in business I can understand why they would not even mention alternatives to having a SIM chip on your device for implementing eSIMs.
18:38:06 <nakilon> I believe you can open any modern phone and find space for 10 more SIM cards
18:44:03 <int-e> are you sure... they pack things pretty densely and fill up as much space as they can with the battery
18:44:27 <b_jonas> "<int-e> it's sitting prettily, not consuming much memory or CPU, hrm. <int-e> I killed it and that didn't immediately disconnect it here" => ah great, this reminds me of when I was hosting the bot cbstream.
18:44:35 <nakilon> Tagged v0.0.0. Pushed rasel 0.0.0 to rubygems.org
18:45:16 <b_jonas> the symptoms weren't the same, and I think it's a different bug, but it was just about as annyoing. it just hang without realizing it should do anything, even die from not having a connection to the IRC server.
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18:45:46 <int-e> nakilon: there are sites doing teardowns of mobile devices, that might change your opinion
18:45:55 <b_jonas> and now fizzie has problems when the logs web service hangs.
18:47:56 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, that's what the SIMs that I buy are like, three parts, and the middle part *is* thinner, though you may only notice that if you look at it from the back side, where the front side is the one with the connectors towards the phone.
18:49:40 <b_jonas> "<kmc> I guess if they want to make them any smaller they'll need to change the standard, because 4FF is about the same size as the connector itself" => yes, there was already a version with a different connector, but I think it went out of use
18:50:42 <b_jonas> "<kmc> but that one is permanently soldered, right?" => I dunno, I assume that only happens in small devices. in large enough devices you put a socket under any fiddly thing that you solder with more than two legs.
18:53:20 <b_jonas> "<kmc> I suppose the idea of SIMs as carrier-trusted hardware is probably doomed anyway, since they have to be cheap to manufacture" => I don't think that argument works, because credit cards also have to be cheap too, but they're similarly supposed to be not copiable and only the credit card provider should be able to make one.
18:53:59 <kmc> true
18:59:04 <nakilon> "Pages about specific languages should be added both to Category:Languages (as above) and to the Language_list"
18:59:09 <nakilon> why is there two places?
18:59:28 <nakilon> to split from "joke language list"?
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19:02:12 <kmc> b_jonas: it's very uncommon to find IC sockets in consumer devices, regardless of size, and most ICs these days use surface-mount packages which don't really lend themselves to sockets
19:03:30 <kmc> even setting aside size constraints (which are certainly present on a smartphone) a socket adds expense, both in terms of the part itself and the extra time/effort during assembly
19:04:21 <kmc> surface mount ICs can be placed ridiculously fast by machines and then reflow-soldered all at once
19:06:00 <kmc> most consumer devices are not meant to be repaired at the level of individual chips, maybe a whole board / subassembly but more likely you throw out the whole thing if it breaks
19:06:13 <kmc> and we're well past the point of physically swapping out ROM ICs as a way of updating firmware
19:10:07 <b_jonas> although I admit that credit cards, especially embossed ones, may in fact be much more expensive to manufacture than SIM cards, and I have no idea about their manufacturing costs, because banks and mobile phone service providers give them to you only in conjunction with a service, so they can charge you much more than it costs to make, or much less to incentivize people to always report stolen credit
19:10:13 <b_jonas> cards and SIM cards
19:11:08 <Hooloovo0> SIM cards in bulk can be pretty cheap
19:11:09 <kmc> mm
19:11:28 <b_jonas> nakilon: ah yes, I should add it to [[Language list]]. and I don't know why, there's no point to maintain both, it's just going by momentum and the two are probably significantly desynced by now.
19:11:37 <Hooloovo0> I know a couple people who used them for shadytel stuff at toorcamp - bring a burner phone and you have phone service for the weekend
19:12:08 <Hooloovo0> well, duration of the con, which is >weekend
19:12:30 <b_jonas> nakilon: while we're there, is this language called RASEL or Rasel? I suspect it's RASEL and I just created the page with the wrong name.
19:12:42 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79458&oldid=79413 * B jonas * (+12)
19:13:14 <b_jonas> kmc: true about consumer device repair
19:13:30 <nakilon> b_jonas I was about to create pages for the language and for myself
19:13:32 <Hooloovo0> kmc, there's still a lot of devices that have easily swappable ROMs, but they're SPI/i2c flash
19:13:41 <nakilon> I'm registering an account, solving befunge captcha, lol
19:13:49 <kmc> what kind of devices?
19:13:50 <nakilon> I've just read all the rules from Help page
19:14:21 <Hooloovo0> calculators, other small embedded stuff
19:14:24 <b_jonas> nakilon: ok, but I already created a stub at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Rasel . If it's called RASEL then I'll ask the wiki guys to rename it.
19:14:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nakilon * New user account
19:14:40 <b_jonas> hmm, in fact I might be able to rename it myself.
19:14:48 <Hooloovo0> maybe less so now than 5 years ago, but an eeprom programmer is still a very useful tool
19:14:49 <kmc> what's the point of doing that instead of having a header or test points to reprogram the chip in situ?
19:15:21 <nakilon> lol, I used my own befunge interpreter -- feels like I've cracked my first captcha
19:15:36 <Hooloovo0> multi-chip-modules are expensive, so if you can have one chip for CPU/RAM/other logic and another for flash, it's cheaper in the long run
19:15:49 <nakilon> b_jonas yeah should be all caps
19:16:00 <Hooloovo0> (weird stuff often doesn't support internal flash. which is also changing)
19:16:03 <b_jonas> ok, I'll move it to [[RASEL]]
19:16:07 <nakilon> thank you
19:16:08 <kmc> i don't see what that has to do with using a socket or not
19:16:13 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * B jonas * moved [[Rasel]] to [[RASEL]]: I created with wrong name, sorry
19:16:22 <kmc> you can have an external SPI flash chip without socketing it
19:16:24 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79461&oldid=79458 * B jonas * (+0)
19:18:02 <nakilon> Esolang email confirmation email got spammed by gmail
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19:21:03 <Hooloovo0> oh, not socketed, but at least replaceable by the end-user
19:21:18 <Hooloovo0> also some machines do socket it
19:27:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79462&oldid=79452 * Nakilon * (+167) machine asked me to prove I'm human
19:30:00 <b_jonas> what I don't understand is why SIM cards still have to stay in the phone these days. it perhaps made sense in the 90s, and we have to make SIM cards and phones compatible with the old protocol for a while. but we could phase them to where you can insert the SIM card to a phone once, the SIM card generates a cryptographically signed statement that you put this SIM card to this phone, with a serial number
19:30:01 <nakilon> b_jonas the wiki says there are User pages and Profile pages
19:30:06 <b_jonas> that increases for the same SIM card, then the phone just sends that data to the provider, and the provider only accepts the statement with the latest serial number that they've seen for each SIM card. then you could have just one SIM slot even in dual-SIM phones, or a SIM slot that overlaps with the memory card slot, or have the SIM reader be a cheap external accessory that you don't carry with the
19:30:12 <b_jonas> phone, like the charger, as the phone manufacturer chooses.
19:30:14 <nakilon> I feel like your User page contains what is supposed to be on Profile page
19:31:43 <int-e> but the SIM card is an active device in negotiations with the mobile phone network
19:31:54 <int-e> not just a serial number
19:33:25 <b_jonas> int-e: why does it have to be an active device? I mean, I could understand if it had to negotiate with the network *once*, and you couldn't bind it to a phone without that.
19:33:36 <b_jonas> but why does it have to stay that way?
19:33:40 <int-e> So if you go down that path facing mobile phone providers who like that shit becuse it's convenient for them... you'll likely end up with something resembling eSIM very very closely
19:34:08 <int-e> it is that way because it has always been that way and the parties in power don't want to change it
19:34:30 <b_jonas> ok...
19:35:25 <b_jonas> so they're sort of like banks, to a lesser degree
19:35:44 <Hooloovo0> oh, phone providers are exactly like banks
19:36:09 <Hooloovo0> also: it's convenient to be able to move my SIM between phones if one breaks
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19:36:48 <int-e> Hooloovo0: in a different world that could be as simple as scanning a QR code
19:36:59 <int-e> but we're not living in that fantasy world
19:37:09 <nakilon> I guess I meant not Profiles but People: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:People
19:38:06 <Hooloovo0> I'm not sure. I feel like a hardware token is easier to manage, in the long run
19:38:21 <int-e> (of course a QR code can be replicated very easily while a SIM card cannot (not easily))
19:39:09 <Hooloovo0> right ^
19:42:11 <b_jonas> Hooloovo0: yes, I do understand that, especially that SIM cards and memory cards are more resistant to water and shock than the phone or camera around them, that's why I suggested that the SIM card should still exist as a discrete resilient piece of hardware and be rebindable to a different phone by the consumer. int-e: well... I'd sort of prefer if, after I insert my SIM to a malicious phone then to
19:42:17 <b_jonas> another phone, the former phone can't lie that I've reinserted the SIM to it as long as the latter phone has registered to the provider,
19:44:17 <b_jonas> int-e: also I don't want every phone (including cheap ones and home alarms) to be required to have a good enough camera to read a QR code, but perhaps you mean that only as an alternative
19:46:08 <int-e> b_jonas: yes it was supposed to be one of several ways that evolved over time
19:46:47 <int-e> it could've started by requiring users to enter a 30 digit code into their phone the first time they use it.
19:47:13 <b_jonas> right, makes more sense. I don't insist either that there can't be cheap phones that require the SIM card to be present all the time
19:53:38 <nakilon> and why there are User: pages in the Category:People?
19:54:12 <nakilon> maybe User pages were categorized as People to avoid duplication?
19:57:25 <int-e> nah it's just users adding themselves to that category presumably because they feel they are people
19:58:32 <int-e> the question is, do we care...
19:59:14 <fizzie> Users are people too? Sounds like some radical product design ideology to me.
20:00:03 <int-e> I'm feeling lenient today... I'd say if the user page actually says what they did (languages designed or programs written) it can be in that category.
20:00:46 <nakilon> yeah, probably, also might have to be written in the "he is", not "I am" narrative
20:00:55 <int-e> but I'm mostly indifferent; what I said is lazy
20:00:58 <nakilon> if classified as such
20:01:02 <nakilon> *categorized
20:01:48 <int-e> The one that doesn't belong is User:Language
20:02:37 <nakilon> wtf
20:02:50 <b_jonas> nakilon: no. User: pages are for users of the wiki; [[Category:People]] has main namespace pages, not user namespace pages, about people, mostly famous ones, who may or may not be wiki users.
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20:04:24 <b_jonas> just look at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:People for examples, there are only 67 pages in there, whereas there are about 1000 user pages
20:04:37 <int-e> oh I was looking at a cached version apparently
20:05:28 <b_jonas> in particular, ais523 and cpressey have both a user page and a main namespace page
20:05:36 <int-e> b_jonas: so do you care enough to remove the category from the user pages that are in it?
20:05:54 <b_jonas> int-e: no
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20:06:51 <int-e> hrm, can I see anywhere how old a cached version of a page is?
20:07:03 <b_jonas> int-e: I just propagate this info because I once started to edit ais's user page, and then he asked me nicely to put that information to a main namespace People page instead
20:07:15 <int-e> Cached time: 20191229022652 Cache expiry: 86400
20:07:23 <int-e> that looks bogus, somehow
20:07:42 <int-e> (from view-source:https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:People when not logged in)
20:08:06 <b_jonas> int-e: you can always just try to go to ?action=purge of the page and then click on the button to regenerate the cache if you feel like it might be old
20:08:26 <int-e> But I'd rather understand why it is so old.
20:08:46 <int-e> I probably won't, but I can wish :P
20:12:20 <nakilon> b_jonas what is "planar array"? what would be a non-planar array?
20:12:28 <int-e> Wow, kerning...
20:14:09 <int-e> Taneb: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/doom.png
20:14:50 <int-e> (I genuinely misread this when I saw it on the wiki.)
20:15:26 <nakilon> keming?
20:15:34 <int-e> nakilon: exactly
20:16:02 <b_jonas> nakilon: its domain is a square grid on the plane. I admit it's not a good phrasing that I added.
20:16:07 <int-e> I like "Dr. Doom".
20:16:51 <nakilon> b_jonas, okay, I'll be editing it now, not sure if concurrent edits are possible
20:17:00 <b_jonas> nakilon: the source code of unefunge or trefunge wouldn't be planar
20:17:12 <int-e> Oooh
20:17:25 <int-e> I just realized that it's deliberate.
20:17:38 <nakilon> I only knew the term "planar graph"
20:17:41 <b_jonas> and most languages just take the source code as a linear string of characters, not as a planar array
20:17:46 <int-e> <span style="letter-spacing: -0.08em;"> is evil
20:17:58 <b_jonas> yes, it's not a good terminology, feel free to edit it to something cleaner
20:18:05 <int-e> and here I was trying to figure out how I misconfigured my browser
20:18:08 <nakilon> but what's the difference from "two-dimensional"?
20:18:12 <b_jonas> I hope I have cleaner phrasing for my suggestion to make Befunge a featured language.
20:18:41 <nakilon> int-e lol
20:18:45 <int-e> oerjan is evil.
20:19:10 <int-e> (Or was? I hope "is" is still applicable. But we haven't seen him in a long time.)
20:20:59 <nakilon> Befunge's page says: Code is layed out on a two-dimensional grid of instructions
20:21:21 <int-e> . o O ( "laid" )
20:21:56 <kmc> i still mix those two up
20:22:34 <nakilon> and why are there two space symbols between sentences?
20:23:03 <int-e> "However, the difference is that while they once meant the same thing, one is no longer used as a word."
20:23:11 <int-e> (about "laid" and "layed")
20:24:21 <int-e> hehe https://www.npr.org/2020/04/28/846919788/typing-debate-do-you-type-2-spaces-between-sentences-or-1
20:25:12 <b_jonas> ah yes, for Befunge I write "where code is stored in a two-dimensional grid of instructions, each encoded by an ASCII character"
20:25:20 <int-e> https://grammarist.com/style/spaces-between-sentences/ blames it on typewriters and says it should be laid to rest.
20:25:29 <b_jonas> looks a bit better
20:25:53 <b_jonas> int-e: that opinion is disputed. I like double-spacing.
20:26:35 <int-e> Emacs's auto fill agrees with having 2 spaces. I should configure it to not do that.
20:26:47 <int-e> b_jonas: ITYM "that opinion is disputed. I like double-spacing."
20:27:20 <b_jonas> int-e: nah, on IRC I often use a less formal style, where I don't bother with consistent capitalization or punctuation
20:27:30 <int-e> I dislike it; the . is narrow enough to give the space following it a wider appearance.
20:28:03 <b_jonas> admittedly I'm also not consistent in double-spacing sentences in places where I wrote somewhat more properly
20:28:05 <int-e> But as with so many things this is a matter of habit and (implied, really) taste, not one of right or wrong.
20:28:34 <b_jonas> in case of Mediawiki, those spaces will be collapsed by HTML rules anyway, so the distinction doesn't matter all that much
20:28:37 <esowiki> [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79463&oldid=79459 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) Stbu
20:29:05 <b_jonas> my source code comments have both single-spaced and double-spaced style
20:32:58 <nakilon> I suppose it's the job of OS font rendering to put enough space between . and letter when there is space char in between
20:33:54 <nakilon> oh no, someone has edited the page _--
20:34:34 <nakilon> ah, it's fine
20:46:28 <nakilon> wow the number of new languages each year is growing https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Categories
20:48:39 <Hooloovo0> I'm surprised, kind of
20:49:02 <Hooloovo0> I mean it's easy to make a derivative language, but... huh
20:49:10 <b_jonas> nakilon: they're only growing if you count every page that calls itself a language. the number of *interesting* and novel languages isn't really growing.
20:49:19 <b_jonas> I mean their rate of creation isn't growing.
20:49:25 <Hooloovo0> right
20:51:39 <nakilon> I wonder if it's possible to track them making a list of "innovative languages" that would have to introduce new feature not seen in languages before them
20:52:33 <b_jonas> nakilon: I recommend the approximation to take https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ais523 and multiply it by a factor of between 2 to 6.
20:53:12 <b_jonas> admittedly that is not a good approximation
20:53:22 <b_jonas> because how many ideas ais has varies a bit
20:56:12 <nakilon> btw, Russian Wikipedia has a category Users Who Use IRC
20:56:47 <nakilon> there are several dozens of users there that is supposed to match those who can be contacted in the IRC channel here on Freenode
20:57:00 <nakilon> you could have the same
20:58:00 <nakilon> to be precise: "Категория:Википедия:Участники IRC-канала wikipedia-ru"
21:03:00 <esowiki> [[Arrows]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79464&oldid=65721 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-23) wip
21:13:09 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79465&oldid=79303 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-24) More aggressive shortening
21:20:48 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79466&oldid=79465 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-212) hm
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21:28:34 <nakilon> the most interesting stuff I've read today on the wiki
21:28:38 <nakilon> "Using a stapler, the fork is multiplied by the sauce and the result assigned to the fork using a drinking glass. "
21:29:02 <b_jonas> nakilon: that's about https://esolangs.org/wiki/Efghij I think
21:29:07 <nakilon> yep
21:29:19 <nakilon> how do you remember its name
21:29:35 <b_jonas> nakilon: it's linked from my user page
21:29:39 <nakilon> oh, it's the alphabet order
21:29:54 <b_jonas> well yes, but which part of the alphabet?
21:30:00 <nakilon> I found it from the category of languages that have no code
21:37:11 <b_jonas> is there a convenient representation of integers for intercal if you want to use those integers as indexes that you use to index arrays with, but you only increase or decrease them one at a time, and equality compare them, never subtract or add or less-than compare them?
21:39:32 <zzo38> I don't know.
21:40:01 <b_jonas> this would have to be unambiguous, unlike that other interesting representation where you represent an integer as the difference of two ordinary integers (or the difference of an ordinary integer from twice another ordinary integer), so that you always access the same element of the array for the same integer index
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22:01:57 <esowiki> [[Depend]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79467 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1363) Add Depend
22:02:54 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79468&oldid=79461 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* D */ +[[Depend]]
22:03:36 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79469&oldid=79414 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) /* Languages */ +[[Depend]]
22:05:37 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79470&oldid=79466 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Ini */ m
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23:07:46 <esowiki> [[User:Nakilon]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79471 * Nakilon * (+94) Created page with "Hello, I made [[RASEL]]. You can find me with the same nickname in IRC:Freenode and Telegram."
23:08:48 <nakilon> is RASEL Turing complete? I don't have a clue in these terms
23:16:01 <esowiki> [[RASEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79472&oldid=79463 * Nakilon * (+2154) removed things that are already described in the article 'fungeoid'; added infobox proglang, instructions table, two basic examples
23:16:26 <nakilon> also maybe it applies to https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Push-down_automata as Befunge does
23:17:47 <nakilon> I'll add some neat examples of using the 'a' instruction later
23:21:50 <nakilon> the 0.0.0 gem version had a bug of not having executable in it ) I've pushed the 0.0.1 version so now usage examples from README should work
23:36:33 <nakilon> btw, guys, there was a website with a game on Flash where you had to program a robot, and I can't find it
23:37:24 <nakilon> the language was short and you could pass functions into functions
23:39:59 <fizzie> We (as in, the channel collectively) played that one game slightly like that (which a HTML version too), but I don't think you could "pass functions into functions" in it, it was much simpler than that.
23:40:03 <b_jonas> apparently the game for https://adventofcode.com/2020/day/15 is http://oeis.org/A181391
23:40:40 <nakilon> it was like a Lightbot in that thing that there is a field and you have to write instructions to only get out of this exact wield with walls, avoiding them and reach the exit
23:41:16 <nakilon> and solutions were ranked by the length of the code that as I said could be recursive
23:41:25 <fizzie> Yeah, that seems to be a common theme. This one had stars you needed to collect, and stay on a certain-colored square.
23:42:10 <b_jonas> nakilon: it is Turing-complete, yes, because you can simulate any of these darned finite state control machines with a single cyclic queue of a fixed alphabet in it
23:42:34 <b_jonas> or... wait
23:42:38 <fizzie> RoboZZle, that's what we played a bunch.
23:42:41 <b_jonas> I'm not so sure now
23:44:11 <b_jonas> ok, different attempt of proof. you can implement any [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] program in it
23:47:01 <b_jonas> whenever the simulated machine stores something into a register, you push it onto the stack and keep it there forever (or push the whole register set if you prefer). you can make a loop with the directional instructions, you can load the value of any register because you know how deep it is in the stack, so you push a constant then use the a instruction to get it from the stack. then we just have to
23:47:07 <b_jonas> verify that you can do addition, subtraction, multiplication, and integer division, if the two arguments are on the stack.
23:48:12 <b_jonas> or let's say, you can do those operations if you know how to push each argument to the stack
23:49:28 <b_jonas> so say >x> pushes the left argument and >y> pushes the right argument, then subtraction is >xy->, addition is >x0y-->, multiplication is >x1y//>,
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23:50:04 <b_jonas> and integer division is >xy/:1%-> if I understand correctly how Rasel works
23:50:12 <b_jonas> does that make sense?
23:50:34 <b_jonas> this uses the fact that Rasel can store arbitrary precision integers on the stack of course
23:54:41 <b_jonas> if you use the fungeoid control flow too, I think it can even implement a machine with arbitrary finite state control and arithmetic and comparisons on several bigint registers: this time you do push the full register file to the top of the Razel stack after each simulated instruction, and use like >xy-?v> to branch down if x is lessequal to y
23:56:03 <b_jonas> you may still ask if Rasel is still turing-complete without using arbitrary size integers (or rationals, whatever), and I don't know the answer, but if it's not, then it would be with a bunch of extra registers, or with instructions that rearrange values in a top window of the stack
23:56:42 <b_jonas> I suspect it's already Turing-complete but don't want to bother proving it
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