< 1608163432 8178 :LKoen!~LKoen@29.248.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1608164921 127334 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie that game was black and white < 1608164953 407485 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :searched both places where screenshots of mine are archived for years but could not find it ( I'm sire I had the screenshot < 1608165134 424539 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's now only deep in my Google Plus Takeout archive < 1608165314 14556 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:7285:c2ff:fe0b:917f QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1608166515 832629 :delta23!~deltaepsi@d179-68-39-184.evv.wideopenwest.com QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1608166781 299936 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:50:12 does that make sense? < 1608166782 354928 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1608168291 74516 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :*.net *.split < 1608168291 412204 :sparr!~sparr@pdpc/supporter/active/sparr QUIT :*.net *.split < 1608168291 848016 :dnm!sid401311@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ycmkpokcfwvctlqo QUIT :*.net *.split < 1608168359 935816 :sparr!~sparr@2604:a880:800:10::103:f001 JOIN :#esoteric < 1608168610 248244 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric < 1608168610 308517 :dnm!sid401311@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ycmkpokcfwvctlqo JOIN :#esoteric < 1608169398 384442 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, is this a cfunge bug, or am I just misinterpreting something. < 1608169444 680462 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless I'm mistaken, its & instruction is, given the input "0\n", also consuming the newline from the input, which I think it shouldn't do. < 1608169603 860936 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/VorpalBlade/cfunge/blob/master/src/input.c#L167 I guess that's an intentional choice, but I don't think that's how it should work. < 1608169626 105685 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Decimal input reads and discards characters until it encounters decimal digit characters, at which point it reads a decimal number from those digits, up until (but not including) the point at which input characters stop being digits, or the point where the next digit would cause a cell overflow, whichever comes first." No special rules about newlines. < 1608169780 578336 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1608169865 147387 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1608169865 208612 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1608170624 916951 :stux|RC-only!stux2@grid9.quadspeedi.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1608170729 907053 :stux|RC-only!stux2@grid9.quadspeedi.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1608171043 895470 :Arcorann_!~awych@159-196-65-46.9fc441.mel.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1608171889 133149 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric < 1608172355 337570 :oren!~oren@ec2-34-239-129-109.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://paste.ee/p/4nJ0t < 1608172365 565593 :oren!~oren@ec2-34-239-129-109.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCC is so wacky < 1608172414 202339 :oren!~oren@ec2-34-239-129-109.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand how it gets the correct value for y, but not x < 1608172433 112175 :oren!~oren@ec2-34-239-129-109.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or why it doesn't give any error < 1608172764 129876 :oren!~oren@ec2-34-239-129-109.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :did GCC implement closures, but only one level of nesting or some shit? < 1608173094 788298 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is this bizarro code tdnh < 1608173149 712391 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The C syntax for this thing is so hard to read when you don't use typedefs. < 1608173208 857381 :oren!~oren@ec2-34-239-129-109.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a uhh (int) -> (int) -> (int) -> struct rectprism < 1608173290 167705 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. < 1608173838 779061 :oren!~oren@ec2-34-239-129-109.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :tcc and clang reject this < 1608173856 627305 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, nested functions are a GNU extension. < 1608173881 392766 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I'm looking at the code now and I certainly wouldn't expect this to work. < 1608173892 654574 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :f is only valid inside some_func. < 1608173913 300747 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't just return it and have the closure work anywhere. < 1608173946 429186 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The closure has a pointer into some_func's stack frame. < 1608174113 3107 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think about making ~ and & also "work as trampoline or not" on EOF instead of reversing < 1608175012 268991 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie btw my unfinished befunge-98 implementation has a bug around that -- it eats one char after integer < 1608175083 765659 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fixed it in RASEL -- good thing Ruby provides ungetbyte method to push bytes back to the stream ..D < 1608175174 30486 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/Nakilon/rasel/blob/fa758b9944e8ebd942c00b61be0c7476fe4aac4f/lib/rasel.rb#L77 > 1608176210 111614 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07List of ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79473&oldid=79222 5* 03Razetime 5* (+44) 10/* Looks Like */ > 1608176232 124881 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07List of ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79474&oldid=79473 5* 03Razetime 5* (+0) 10/* Looks Like */ < 1608178680 896053 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: I like the idea that ? now jumps forward one or two cells. this way you can write arbitrary control flow in one dimensional code by like pushing a number then ?j < 1608178749 593729 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, more like pushing a distance, then pushing the tested number, then ?j < 1608179818 395517 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reversing ? kind of allowed that too, but yeah, it's good to keep the pointer going the same direction < 1608180638 823799 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: hmm, that's true, though then you basically need a trampoline < 1608180683 653710 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I guess I should say ?j$ so it discards the jump length if the branch isn't taken < 1608181241 160417 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I think RASEL can indeed simulate an arbitrary finite control machine with single queue of finite alphabet. represent the alphabet with small natural numbers. if a symbol is on the top of the stack, you can do a big case distinction on it like >:?v1-:?v1-:?v1-:?v1-?v> . between states of the original machine, the stack shall contain the queue and then the length of the queue plus one over it. to < 1608181247 169090 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :push a symbol A, you can just >A\1+> . to shift a symbol and test it, you do like >:a :?v1-:?v1-:?v1-:?v1-?v> < 1608181255 120157 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and to initialize an empty queue, just >1> < 1608181264 713046 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you don't in fact need bigints < 1608181380 129187 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this still works in single-line code, you just have to you just do L\?j$ to put the jump distance L under the number tested < 1608181517 546565 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's still not clear to me if you can do an arbitrary computation in RASEL without leaving junk on the stack forever < 1608181593 564029 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the constructions I mentioned, both this one with a queue, and the one with integer registers (and, as a special case, blindfolded artithmetic, or state machine with a fixed number of stacks of finite alphabets) do leave junk on the stack. < 1608181831 222702 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you added a second memory (outside the stack) with random access load, store, and sbrk instructions, that would of course solve all the problems and make this something to which you can compile normal programs with a random-access memory. < 1608181875 561572 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could use the bottom of that extra memory as registers that you can load and store conveniently, which lets you rearrange the top of the stack < 1608181884 633157 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you could use the rest as just read-writable memory < 1608181924 598011 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that perhaps would be a different or less esoteric language. < 1608181969 414986 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :one that's more suitable for golfing at least though < 1608182455 799049 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :KISS++ < 1608182496 279502 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kissat++ < 1608182509 334507 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :猫++ < 1608182818 281951 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I'm back at it and immediately not sure what to do on the island with the broom. < 1608182861 137836 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, the oar. < 1608182863 259668 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The big spoon. < 1608182871 274353 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...there are too many landmarks... was there a broom? or an oar? < 1608182912 86752 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Apparently I've seen 139 landmarks) < 1608182937 866371 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's at 314,214. < 1608183002 41103 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish the map when traveling had coordinates < 1608183096 534523 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, there < 1608183143 915082 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: does pressing F3 reveal your coordinates perhaps? :) < 1608183297 406726 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why f3 < 1608183341 310865 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: may require some thought :P < 1608183347 288961 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :minecraft. < 1608183352 113108 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Oh, I already went elsewhere. < 1608183362 528664 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I realized there was a footprint area nearby that I didn't finish. < 1608183447 42238 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it is solvable from just that island, it sounds like. < 1608183484 266809 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: ah one of the games that I will never play because there's only two outcomes, both bad < 1608183508 635355 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: 1) I hate it. 2) I get addicted and spend the next half year solely on minecraft < 1608183552 475237 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you play Factorio? < 1608183558 802575 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1608183745 154036 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1608183922 523853 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: press F3 for that in Minecraft < 1608183929 838299 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, imode already told you < 1608183968 424411 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I guess that makes sense, int-e < 1608185570 818737 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh man, this is definitely a glitch in how it displays this interaction. < 1608185694 351179 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey maybe you've found something I don't know... I don't remember glitches < 1608185721 317521 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it just snaps the tree from one place to another instead of moving continuously. < 1608185722 646973 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even animation glitches < 1608185736 360926 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, whoa, I'm 278 islands in and only now I realize that you can stop onto short rocks? < 1608185760 908406 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes that was a surprise to me as well < 1608185789 250893 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the "non-spoiler" review of the game, it distinguished between short rocks and tall rocks. < 1608185796 589547 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1608185797 663638 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I've been wondering why. I guess this it why. < 1608185879 878343 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's a great twist because it gives you a pretty different flavor of puzzles < 1608185900 193608 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This puzzle didn't even use it. < 1608185937 97570 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, they are doing a good job of introduces the mechanic first as an accident, then make use of it in later puzzles < 1608185943 903608 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: do you mean "step onto" or "stop on"? < 1608185956 256825 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the former < 1608186361 491085 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.228.48 JOIN :#esoteric < 1608186529 670088 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what distinction you're making. < 1608186552 677831 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Short rocks are elevated, and if you're also elevated, you can step onto them. < 1608186876 120278 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you made a typo < 1608186892 759188 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, now I see it. < 1608188430 986644 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I'm puzzled by 303,102 < 1608188606 563886 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me guess, it's another puzzle < 1608188762 591614 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a tall tree, a short tree, and a short rock, if that clears it up. < 1608188900 958860 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like every 6th island :) < 1608188950 104126 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'd have to start up the game and I'm refusing this time) < 1608188989 610718 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh no, I didn't mean to make you start up the game. < 1608188999 781508 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you had it up already before, since you said 139 landmarks. < 1608189040 582958 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then I quit < 1608189070 587988 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main issue I have is that they made finding islands really inconvenient < 1608189094 960774 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :even navigating by coordinates is a process of trial and error < 1608189120 542950 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's https://slbkbs.org/tmp/2020-12-16-231107_3840x2160.png if you're curious < 1608189196 75334 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, yeah, that one looks fun < 1608189358 598813 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :50 moves or so :) < 1608189488 839421 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait, this was so easy. < 1608189492 732772 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was so close the whole time. < 1608189519 307713 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should set up a proxy for myself that resizes images < 1608189592 578589 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could presize them. < 1608189603 117147 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do you want them smaller? < 1608189622 298763 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the 3MB download takes noticable time for me < 1608189650 440207 :MDude!~MDude@71.50.47.112 QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com) < 1608189652 208485 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha. < 1608189678 475931 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too bad every web page has 3MB of JavaScript these days. < 1608189679 356522 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all the information is still perfectly visible at 25% of the size < 1608189688 640248 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also disable JS. < 1608189694 626506 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost everywhere. < 1608189695 566968 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's being upscaled from 1920x1080 anyway. < 1608189720 11287 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you know that in JavaScript, "for (let i = 0; i < n; i++) { BODY }" is different from "{ let i; for (i = 0; i < n; i++) { BODY } }"? < 1608189727 27339 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not all web pages have 3MB of JavaScript; some have less, and a few have none at all. < 1608189825 296843 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: oh really I didn't know < 1608189844 661221 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Some also have more. < 1608189877 654506 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, some have more. I don't know how much is the average < 1608189978 304204 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would try to avoid it by promoting the use of plain text, simple HTML (when plain text won't do), NNTP, Gopher, simpler VMs in case you need one anyways, etc < 1608190079 486007 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: But I want my traffic to be encryptd. I don't think Gopher supports that. < 1608190165 20004 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could use Gopher or any other protocol with TLS, I suppose, but I don't know which implementations will do that. Gemini supports encryption, though. < 1608190207 335349 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course HTTP is still useful too, but there are too many complicated things and stupid things that should be avoided hopefully even when doing so < 1608190433 759464 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :Quit: brb < 1608190581 93105 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN :#esoteric < 1608191737 815763 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:7285:c2ff:fe0b:917f JOIN :#esoteric < 1608192117 962270 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I'm puzzled by 347,95 < 1608192177 246881 :Arcorann_!~awych@159-196-65-46.9fc441.mel.nbn.aussiebb.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1608192280 158845 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm wondering whether there's some inter-island thing going on. < 1608192329 729386 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not unheard of < 1608192370 681090 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, maybe I need to get to the other place first... < 1608192388 318587 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that doesn't seem possible, and the footprints are on this island. < 1608192396 896451 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's in the mushroom area. < 1608192402 851157 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I did not check where that is, I'm speaking in general) < 1608192415 828616 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Of course) < 1608192929 394315 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( Sometimes there's a remote chance of making progress. ) < 1608192950 144242 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1608193111 154691 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1608193199 45242 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen almost nothing use the mechanic that trees with leaves are different from trees without leaves. < 1608193204 54874 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe a couple of puzzles early on. < 1608193331 774620 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So far I'm at 302 islands and 0 friends. < 1608194211 130299 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've only seen very few uses of that mechanic as well. < 1608194235 823840 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98aa4.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1608194238 270456 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :possible as few as one < 1608194245 197844 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :*possibly < 1608194263 41967 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's another mechanic I've only seen once < 1608194397 345567 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, now I'm in a snowy area that has you walking on rocks. < 1608194607 873746 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what an uplifting experience < 1608194700 503405 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One problem is that it's approximately impossible for me to figure out the "parity" of a log a few moves ahead. < 1608194707 667139 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm so bad at that kind of thing. < 1608194747 686637 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if in doubt try it out < 1608195706 51203 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, that's enough for tonight. < 1608195707 854993 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :330 islands. < 1608195737 241533 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :getting there < 1608198382 864742 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:7285:c2ff:fe0b:917f QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1608198732 500119 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1608198803 926686 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:20:22 because the 3MB download takes noticable time for me < 1608198814 568459 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that screemshot just had to be in jpeg somehow < 1608198844 464422 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:21:18 Too bad every web page has 3MB of JavaScript these days. < 1608198850 608918 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :not every, only Youtube, and it gets cached < 1608198871 774649 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: it's a 3840x2160.png < 1608198922 509439 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is that game at all? < 1608198965 594048 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Monster's Expedition < 1608199043 942348 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like sokoban < 1608199045 587188 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: Nothing gets cached because I use new private browsing sessions all the time. < 1608199054 218815 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's loosely based on Sokoban < 1608199061 476402 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah, not only that could be in JPEG, the game state is actually 5x5 cells < 1608199065 496979 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you know over trees to travel from island to island < 1608199084 302162 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just a screenshot, not a hyperoptimized transfer of state. < 1608199107 635013 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1608199109 933313 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :screenshots don't have to be in png < 1608199113 706183 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :know over -> knock over < 1608199147 151317 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: what else could they be; PCX doesn't have enough colors < 1608199154 342356 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :BMP is to micro-softy < 1608199166 316197 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you make private youtube browsing sessions? < 1608199172 621202 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is nothing illegal on youtube < 1608199221 558190 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is BMP Microsofty? < 1608199322 761301 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure it first appeared in Windows 3.x < 1608199361 976751 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or even Windows 2.0 but who ever even used that... < 1608199366 401790 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, that's the origin of the format, but the format itself? < 1608199376 948408 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was used heavily in OS/2 as well. < 1608199388 361462 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/BMPfileFormat.png < 1608199403 143704 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still only see BMP files in Windows. < 1608199473 695735 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :In practice most of the pictures I have are PNG and JPEG anyway. < 1608199496 518154 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it makes very much sense for screenshots to default to PNG. < 1608199550 173952 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably people could do way better than JPEG nowadays for lossy image compression? < 1608199566 158338 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :They can. < 1608199656 242385 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's JPEG2000 which is burdened by patents... I suppose webp is the latest attempt to overcome JPEG? < 1608199690 944508 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does not make sense to screenshot games in png < 1608199733 417185 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of the games use jpeg by default in their built-in screenshoting feature < 1608199742 344439 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they realise this thing < 1608199868 673066 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately unlike jpeg the webp is being changed everyday -- they patch the format and the CLI webp converter tools become incompatible even with Google Chrome < 1608200238 181276 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't use a built-in screenshotting feature. < 1608200257 86270 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just have one screenshot button, and it shoots the exact pixels that are on screen. < 1608200261 280111 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would I have more than that? < 1608200285 512981 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :jpeg does not mean it takes another number of pixels < 1608200354 133388 :TheLie!~TheLie@business-24-134-17-157.pool2.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1608200391 306560 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :jpeg is not a good default for screenshots < 1608200418 42470 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is < 1608200496 103246 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why Steam makes screenshots in jpeg too < 1608200501 709263 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :screenshots should be lossless by default, to preserve small details and text < 1608200505 678155 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess < 1608200531 742276 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :games don't have small details and text < 1608200538 134977 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are games < 1608200544 114727 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDNywILJMGg < 1608200545 59876 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, sure they do? < 1608200548 512689 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :depending on the game < 1608200549 716118 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( somebody has never playeed TIS-100 ) < 1608200550 684424 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Silicon Zeroes < 1608200553 164271 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric : game < 1608200561 4918 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this makes no sense < 1608200578 661577 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe a fairly large fraction of games contain dialogue < 1608200584 650913 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are many games that feature lots of text < 1608200602 351063 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:08:10 it does not make sense to screenshot games in png < 1608200618 537914 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :where did I say here that it makes no sense to screenshot small details and text in png? < 1608200620 970108 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :games != irc < 1608200628 343769 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :games != websites < 1608200631 412202 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :now if the only games you play are fast-paced games rendered with a 3D engine you're probably right < 1608200632 189372 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Games often have small details and text < 1608200633 246098 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :games != terminal logs < 1608200645 171353 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :many games have small details and text < 1608200659 512834 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you probably want crisp screenshots :p < 1608200674 719078 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't really matter though < 1608200681 925313 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A lot of games also have large regions of flat colours, which I believe is very suitable for PNG < 1608200685 64955 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :would make sense to have it be a setting I guess < 1608200690 167856 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"there are many games that" does not negate the fact that most of the games don't have it < 1608200693 553498 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no logic < 1608200695 678013 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, even for 3D games I'd prefer lossless screenshots; I can always compress them myself later. < 1608200697 424217 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of the games I play do < 1608200724 681691 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do you care what other people use to take screenshots of things to show to still other people? < 1608200728 623246 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :guys, I guess you just were never really making screenshots < 1608200759 39682 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and don't realise that even if the game has 75% of screen scape of one flat color it still does not make png screenshot smaller < 1608200771 320357 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :*75% of screen space < 1608200796 812340 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Quit: Batsharks are people too! < 1608200806 304121 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Again, why do you care < 1608200829 916836 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because in fact the screenshots you were sharing today were not from TIS, they were from the average game < 1608200831 187250 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :hum < 1608200835 47040 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Regardless, we were discussing a default of builtin OS functionality, and there's simply no argument to be made for using JPEG in that context. < 1608200838 112364 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it was 3mb while could be 300kb < 1608200854 432785 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :this also depends on the lossiness of the jpeg, no? < 1608200870 218161 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :default OS functionality has nothing to do with png, it takes shots in bmp < 1608200888 13274 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I'm missing some context here, idk < 1608200905 781930 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: that depends on which OS you're using. Many of us do not use Windows < 1608200907 143578 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who said anything about the number of pixels? I care about the content of the pixels. < 1608200920 139167 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the job of additional software to convert the clipboard to png or jpeg and you usually have a choice that you may want to do carefully < 1608200921 271621 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only have one screenshot button. I don't really want a different kind of screenshot for games. < 1608200932 821000 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Screenshots on my computer take PNG by default < 1608200955 21106 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb pretty sure every OS stores clipboard as bitmap < 1608200986 160016 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I press my print screen button, it saves a PNG in my Pictures directory. < 1608200992 939687 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have done no configuration to set this up < 1608200993 968893 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :guys, you confuse all the things with each other < 1608201003 793062 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :computer, keyboard, software, clipboard < 1608201011 822445 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the default on my OS and desktop environment < 1608201034 330179 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't know why you care so much about this < 1608201040 582638 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're the one bringing all these things up. I have no clipboard. Screenshots get saved into the screenshot directory. < 1608201043 299405 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :looking at the screenshots I've apparently taken in steam, I think I'm happier with all four as png's than jpg's :p < 1608201044 662830 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.9 < 1608201054 443064 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I set up my own screenshot thing which is better than the system I've seen in any OS by default. < 1608201083 951325 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You press Print Screen, and it shows a little modal menu at the top of the screen, and then you press w to screenshot a window, r to screenshot the whole screen, or s to select a region. < 1608201103 625498 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead of memorizing Alt+PrtScr or Cmd+Shift+5 or some nonsense like that. < 1608201149 462680 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :neat < 1608201152 515226 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the thing is that you just don't care how your tools are configured < 1608201162 648993 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf clearly cares < 1608201170 894467 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why you care about how I take screenshots < 1608201187 459705 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in result you throw screenshots that weight 3mb and have only 25 bytes of meaningfull data in it < 1608201189 122950 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps the thing you care about is starting arguments? < 1608201198 137447 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a question... what's a clipboard :P < 1608201209 239272 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know about active selections < 1608201217 454226 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there was no problem in it there would be no message in this chat: "hey, why your screenshot is 3mb" -- it was not me who said that < 1608201231 420316 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: It's one of the X11 selections. < 1608201235 687007 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you are suffering from your own unwilling to learn about image formats < 1608201240 918351 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :PRIMARY and CLIPBOARD are the two standard ones. < 1608201251 734427 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sadly X11 *does* have a clipboard mechanism, and I always have to jump through hoops to work with software that uses it) < 1608201263 789351 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is it about image formats that I haven't learned that you're saying I need to learn? < 1608201290 788405 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the real problem is that my screenshot was only 3 millibits, and that's not nearly enough information. < 1608201356 853354 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I uploaded a 3 MB screenshot because the thing I want by default -- when I don't think about it -- is a lossless reproduction of my screen. When I think about it I can switch to something else. < 1608201363 856440 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why am I getting into this again? < 1608201371 839635 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: I may have complained about the size, but I still consider that to be *my* problem, not shachaf's. < 1608201386 258502 :aloril!~aloril@mobile-access-b0480e-37.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1608201402 866689 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Speaking of images, I wrote a sonnet and got cat pictures! < 1608201408 380282 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@188.163.100.177 JOIN :#esoteric < 1608201410 763150 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I saw on Twitter! It was a good sonnet < 1608201415 306112 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cats are the cutest, huh? < 1608201417 199143 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e you can barely control how you obtain the data < 1608201427 361822 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a problem of data provider to provide good api, good formats < 1608201428 752550 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They sure are < 1608201435 157409 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: But I can. < 1608201444 53258 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :我喜欢猫 < 1608201458 516651 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :he could use some better website integration, something that asks what format to use for sharing or convert automatically < 1608201489 397952 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anche mi piacciono i gatti < 1608201492 436269 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: But it's bad style to expect others to solve your problems for you, unless you're paying for it. < 1608201515 948482 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in >99% of cases there would be nothing bad if his screenshot was converted on the website to jpeg for sharing < 1608201530 95109 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll solve your problems for you! < 1608201537 70447 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you express them as 2SAT instances. < 1608201563 865313 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e he gave you the problem, it's his problem < 1608201589 502867 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :/help ignore < 1608201596 463150 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :he pressed the printscreen < 1608201652 771456 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Remind me, are you into SAT solvers? < 1608201659 227859 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems like everyone is these days. < 1608201664 122703 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is insane < 1608201668 514199 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: 2SAT is so limited... < 1608201687 418907 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.228.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :send me all the pngs < 1608201698 914328 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.228.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will look at them and devise < 1608201738 182401 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Hmm, OK, I'll let you use arbitrary Horn clauses. < 1608201769 919864 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, I have used Horn clauses. < 1608201771 308377 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of you is sharing a screenshot in not suitable format, another one highlights the problem and when I come to help solving it I get "stop arguing" themed responses < 1608201789 323537 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.228.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I too am confused what’s clipboard to do with all that. I have a little program which doesn’t leave anything in clipboard when it takes a shot < 1608201796 308061 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I was for a while but I haven't been thinking about them for a while < 1608201929 484329 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: I think you're missing something about, I don't know, magnitude or weight or something. < 1608201957 606691 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv that program calls API of your OS that returns it in BMP or specified format, that program might be configurable or improved < 1608201971 803795 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone mentioned that 3MB was kind of big (and said they themselves wanted to take care of it for themselves, not even requested that anyone else do anything). < 1608201998 361356 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.228.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: yep it’s configurable and spews me out a png to a folder < 1608202010 383846 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.228.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no clipboard mess < 1608202012 508738 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw that, took it into account, and slightly adjusted my weights in the future. Maybe next time I'll resize or convert the image, or maybe I'll just think about it. < 1608202024 873672 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the size of content in internet isn't what the read requestor should care -- he can't compress it on the source < 1608202063 130590 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's all that needed to happen here, for either party. It's not a binary thing that is either broken or solved, just a continuum of preferences and things that you can adjust a bit. < 1608202085 288918 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.228.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for now I personally have a pretty good internet access so I would be glad to download maybe even a bmp < 1608202086 654668 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So insisting that people adjust all sorts of things immediately with a particular solution you have in mind doesn't really help. < 1608202102 298785 :aloril!~aloril@mobile-access-5d6ae6-35.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1608202127 529008 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.228.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and many people, I think, will be not against downloading bmp :) < 1608202141 672481 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know whether you read what int-e said, but it was an idea about having a proxy that resizes images. Which is in the requester's control. < 1608202152 475521 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :switching to using non optimal data formats just because you've got faster internet is the same wrong thing as starting making worse software with worse algorithms just because you've got faster computers < 1608202189 326288 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 3840*2160*3 / 1024^2 < 1608202190 641977 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"optimal" only makes sense in the context of optimizing something. What are you optimizing? < 1608202191 790274 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 23.73046875 < 1608202250 353624 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar koak < 1608202251 18180 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :KOAK 171041Z 16009KT 3SM -RA BR SCT006 BKN010 OVC024 13/11 A2998 RMK AO2 P0007 T01330106 < 1608202275 668914 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: one thing I've been thinking about is a SAT solver that aims to create as human-understandable proofs as possible < 1608202302 861676 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's interesting. What would those look like? < 1608202320 662821 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you realise the price you pay for internet would be several times smaller if people were not playing 4k videos on their broken glass 720p phones turned on behind their backs while they are cooking? < 1608202329 812674 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( brain saturation ) < 1608202350 985237 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: that's likely false < 1608202375 906083 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think all the clauses would have to be named, and the solver would report things like "By clause xyz, we know that variable t must be false" < 1608202402 530308 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the internet is overpolluted by data that isn't used and we pay for all the infrastructure for it < 1608202405 340991 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: the technology you're talking about is only being deployed because people actually use the bandwidth. < 1608202437 496756 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :effective data barely gets larger but the price stays the same let's say $20 per months no matter how better the hardware gets < 1608202447 834272 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because people think "hey I've got so much room, lets trash it" < 1608202450 760867 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd need to try and find a shallow proof when it needs to speculate, but I'm not sure which dimension it'd need to be shallow < 1608202476 120722 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even knowing that when they buy the "100mbit internet" it's only measured in peak < 1608202481 448127 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :In an alternative history where nobody ever dared to use bandwidth you might be spending $20 a months plus a fixed rate per minute on dual ISDN lines. < 1608202495 403656 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or more, $20 seems rather low < 1608202597 915268 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I pay $8 < 1608202605 908060 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in not the most technologically developed country < 1608202612 483210 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: What sorts of proofs are you thinking of applying this to? < 1608202616 724463 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can realise how much you overpay < 1608202626 466225 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder whether you'd rather have something higher-level than SAT for expressing things. < 1608202626 781168 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of people watching 4k with their backs < 1608202629 200098 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: mostly little puzzle games like what's in sgtpuzzles < 1608202639 27014 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least, that's what inspired me down this line of thought < 1608202643 840288 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha. < 1608202655 232921 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Human solutions to these puzzles often look pretty different from computer solutions. < 1608202674 385597 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: that's way too simplistic. the rates are in a large part arbitrary and determined by available income of the people < 1608202683 950403 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a free market, by and large < 1608202697 489917 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since humans are bad at backtracking, so they try to minimize it and find very short paths to contradictions. < 1608202708 801258 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :people will spend all their income without need getting anything for that < 1608202731 70723 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: humans will often prove lemmas that aren't expressed in a couple of clauses (which DPLL might learn) < 1608202772 432408 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think some puzzles are just not particularly human-solvable, even if they're in NP. < 1608202787 485829 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since "having a human solution path" is a stronger constraint than "having a solution". < 1608202812 39272 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another thing is that a human doesn't just want to satisfy the puzzle, they want to satisfy it uniquely, right? < 1608202842 802013 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: well, it depends on the human :) < 1608202870 509733 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, I'm proposing some model of what it means to be human-solvable, or human-fun. < 1608202882 374905 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A lot of these puzzles have a unique solution by design (and I have taken that as an assumption in solving puzzles in the past) < 1608202882 756916 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking for myself, yes, I'm happier knowing that a solution is unique < 1608202902 139028 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looking at some advanced Sudoku solving patterns... not all people care. < 1608202926 219129 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I posted another sudoku: https://logic-masters.de/Raetselportal/Benutzer/eingestellt.php?name=shachaf < 1608202935 642513 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh no. < 1608202937 472125 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's that interesting. < 1608202939 694560 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :What did I do. < 1608202962 281498 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In some sense it's just an easier version of the 6-12 sudoku that int-e already solved. < 1608202981 229652 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: somehow, today's AoC task doesn't look very twisty :P < 1608202986 263055 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you care about how the puzzle is solved, any solution will do, we have cool intel cpus in 2020 < 1608202998 482056 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :just bruteforce it < 1608203008 653102 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I *just* regenerated the plot, like, five minutes ago. < 1608203010 719304 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: it's called an intellectual challenge < 1608203015 837263 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of the four sudoku puzzles I posted, one of them can be solved entirely with unit propagation. < 1608203036 484190 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which maybe counts as extremely boring? < 1608203042 11523 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no, it's not very twisty. < 1608203069 202294 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just press the button "download the solution" and it downloads and I have it < 1608203070 397086 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :People seem to struggle with it though. < 1608203127 971464 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, now I've got an actual wrapper script to do the "fetch any new leaderboards, if there were any update the dataframe and redraw the plots"; http://ix.io/2Ip8 < 1608203143 67570 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't scp the results or run with cron yet, though. < 1608203164 283799 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it makes the assumption that if it's more than 2 hours after midnight Eastern time, it's okay to download the day's leaderboard. < 1608203186 210658 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if they do a trickier puzzle that takes more than 2 hours for the 100th person to solve, that might fail. < 1608203199 231376 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that assumption has worked out fine so far. < 1608203340 332211 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a historically pretty sound assumption, violated by 6 days out of 142. < 1608203362 145779 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many of those were in 2015? < 1608203389 335119 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :2015 days 1, 19 and 22; 2016 day 11; 2018 day 15; and 2019 day 22. < 1608203450 19638 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :On which days the 100th person took approximately 186, 232, 183, 164, 143 and 124 minutes to get two stars, respectively. < 1608203547 803192 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yeah, I remember wondering on day 22 last year why it was so hard :P < 1608203572 850296 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you may do again those messages that I assume to be rude, such as "you are looking for arguing" or "/help ignore" but I'm still amazed by how bad the idea is to make an end consumer of IRC screenshot links to setup and configure some proxy for his personal internet browsing instead of storing the content in a proper format in the first place, < 1608203573 25719 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because he won't know he wants that piece of data compressed until he click the link and see that "oh it's that game screenshot" so he'll have to switch all his way of browsing the internet to a proxy solution and then switch to uncompressed format and redownload the link again if he sees "ah, this has details I should now turn the proxy off" just < 1608203573 25765 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because some people are lazy to find a better way of sharing screenshots < 1608203603 813681 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: nobody is making me do anything here < 1608203605 106912 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(tell me if the message didn't fit the irc limit if you care) < 1608203988 823328 :LKoen!~LKoen@29.248.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1608204628 511386 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I am not very good at these fancy sudokus < 1608204638 255268 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not too great at regular sudokus, come to that < 1608204677 183602 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The middle two are easier than the other two. < 1608204679 192928 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: the fancy ones may be easier than the regular ones because they rely less on obscure patterns that only sudoku experts have internalized < 1608204706 427240 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's also plausible. < 1608204711 285485 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And I'm not a Sudoku expert.) < 1608204714 221310 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The constraints for all of these puzzles are very strong. < 1608204726 923501 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :With no clues, I think the most recent one has 288 solutions. < 1608204735 164435 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the others were also in the range of hundreds. < 1608204889 176130 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1608205365 545046 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@188.163.100.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't a true Sudoku puzzle must have only one solution? < 1608205424 985691 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaaaa: yes, but (to me) it still feels awkward to rely on that information without verification < 1608205758 238123 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1608205803 530971 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a pen and paper puzzle should have a unique solution that can be reached through deduction alone < 1608205840 399724 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there is debate about whether or not the solver should exploit uniqueness to make deductions < 1608205980 547041 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"deduction" means you find a satisfying assignment, and then you rule that one out, and then it's UNSAT, right? < 1608206030 709541 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: assuming X, you can show that there is not exactly one solution. Can you conclude not X? < 1608206057 818615 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, I know the uniqueness thing you mean. < 1608206080 441224 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In some puzzles it's very blatant and happens all the time. < 1608206094 196374 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :With sudoku it's kind of rare but still happens. < 1608206414 445051 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1608207033 163528 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1608207536 365617 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's very interesting imo < 1608207579 302757 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw a sudoku variant that said: Solve this sudoku such that the highlighted cells, taken on their own, are enough for a unique solution. < 1608207619 362214 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooph < 1608207637 594391 :TheLie!~TheLie@business-24-134-17-157.pool2.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1608207701 52010 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :feed it to a QBF solver :/ < 1608207761 694812 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many quantifiers do you need? Just two, right? < 1608207777 744869 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :exists ... forall, one alternation < 1608207788 921893 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think all the SMT solvers do exists-forall nowadays. < 1608207817 584015 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is stretching the meaning of SMT a bit. < 1608208702 211919 :Arcorann_!~awych@159-196-65-46.9fc441.mel.nbn.aussiebb.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/irrationalconcepts/oops-all-edges <-- don't know if this is relevant, but it is amusing (maybe not for the solver) < 1608210689 696090 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is your RAM shielded... https://www.zdnet.com/article/academics-turn-ram-into-wifi-cards-to-steal-data-from-air-gapped-systems/ :-/ < 1608210848 855085 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh there's a list of more techniquess like it at the bottom, some of which I didn't know about. < 1608210855 418561 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@188.163.100.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: but the PC must be trojaned before? < 1608210865 717113 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaaaa: for this, yep < 1608210900 602982 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@188.163.100.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is what is called 'side-channel attack' < 1608210908 2399 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@188.163.100.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cool, though < 1608211018 767755 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"play sound from power supply" < 1608211063 702953 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@188.163.100.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: didn't get it too < 1608211115 998549 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@188.163.100.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have anybody using Tarski's world? < 1608211124 861703 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@188.163.100.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it worth it? < 1608211137 694192 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaaaa: you can modulate the power consumption of a processor or GPU and that will affect electromagnetic transformers and potentially other elements on a PSU < 1608211167 910258 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaaaa: so I imagine that's the kind of thing they're doing < 1608211826 871077 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: what should I do? < 1608211827 334293 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: madam president, the fnord of older civilisations, allow me to make a strong commitment to the aim and objectives of the lisbon target, that is of course a large number of juvenile fish caught. if this money is however coming entirely from national sources and include statistics from greece for the last time i take the view that little or nothing can be paid out or which biometric risks need to be discussed and that a co < 1608211876 704451 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was pretty good < 1608211890 739711 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm almost sorry that it got cut off < 1608211938 170888 :delta23!~deltaepsi@d179-68-39-184.evv.wideopenwest.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1608212051 950200 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, the famous Lisbon target of catching a lotta fish. < 1608212167 585134 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@188.163.100.177 QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1608212168 21518 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.9 < 1608214291 429429 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1608214311 722003 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric < 1608214441 531971 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1608214674 307660 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" I should set up a proxy for myself that resizes images" => set it up with three backends, one for each continents, so it only has to transmit the smaller image under the ocean. :-) < 1608214748 742091 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...right < 1608214972 529663 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" I didn't use a built-in screenshotting feature. / I just have one screenshot button, and it shoots the exact pixels that are on screen. / Why would I have more than that?" => well, sometimes the screenshot feature built into a game could save an image that is a larger part of the level than fits to the screen and that you would scroll on the screen in-game and when viewing later < 1608215075 663217 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( isn't shooting screens rather expensive in the long run ) < 1608215431 106864 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't use any sort of OS built-in screnshot functionality. I make screenshots with the screenshot features built into GIMP or Irfanview, because if I take a screenshot, I always want to post-process it, like decide whether to keep or discard it, crop, possibly color reduce, possibly censor parts, occasionally stitch multiple screenshots, decide how to encode, decide the filename. You need a graphics < 1608215437 93710 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :editor for some of that, and they can already do all the steps that come up, so there's no point to use anything else. < 1608215485 560511 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :OS functionality made sense when all it did was read the characters from the video memory and send them to the line printer, and you didn't have the hardware to load a graphics editor program for that. < 1608215549 28344 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" send me all the pngs" => sorry, I refuse because I take most of them for work, and they may contain trade secrets < 1608215567 387397 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even our trade secrets, but secrets of our customers and partners. < 1608215637 606290 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can tell when [REDACTED INTERNAL TOOL] added a dark mode at a glance by looking at the overall luminance of my screenshot history. < 1608215647 563832 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, when I turned it on, not exactly when they added it. < 1608215705 212992 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a standard web 3.11 API for detecting if the user prefers a dark theme or a light one? I imagine there must be. < 1608215732 807243 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently it's a CSS media selector. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/@media/prefers-color-scheme < 1608215768 357002 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If you have set privacy.resistFingerprinting to true, prefers-color-scheme preference is overridden to light." Tradeoffs, tradeoffs. > 1608215894 947094 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07MiniStringFuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79475&oldid=60958 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+18) 10/* See also */ m < 1608215907 247499 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" It'd need to try and find a shallow proof when it needs to speculate, but I'm not sure which dimension it'd need to be shallow" => maximum stack depth of when you try multiple values of a variable backtrackingly, after tail call optimization, I think. > 1608215923 589536 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07PlusOrMinus14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79476&oldid=78344 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+6) 10/* Original version */ m > 1608216087 628039 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07MangularJS14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79477&oldid=78014 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+4) 10/* Stack class */ link < 1608216130 637321 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I missed that... depth is not necessarily a problem when it's all unit propagation or very shallow subproofs that fall into a pattern > 1608216147 599514 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Javagony Turing-completeness proof14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79478&oldid=79116 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+0) 10Update < 1608216157 302594 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I guess is similar to TCO < 1608216218 91357 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a related problem where you try to assess the difficulty of a puzzle to a human. < 1608216240 999476 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is probably harder because you have to account for experience somehow. < 1608216262 315883 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But maybe not significantly harder. < 1608216350 667788 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, while we're at puzzles, I'll just mention something I was idly wondering about < 1608216427 111442 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider the following single-player game. the level is a maze that's a graph with rooms for vertices and (undirected) corridors for edges. one vertex is marked as the player's location, and one as the goal. < 1608216451 529236 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98aa4.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1608216468 792567 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( Not quite Hunt the Wumpus ) < 1608216617 107443 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :each edge has a door. doors come in triples: each door is marked with a pair of a name and a state, where the state is one of open, ajar, closed, and each pair can only occur at most once. you can't walk through a closed door, and you can walk through an open door without any side effect. but when you walk through an ajar door, then it changes to open, the open door with the same name shuts to closed, < 1608216623 108607 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the closed door with the same name changes to ajar, simultaneously. states of the doors with different name don't change during that, and the names of doors never change. < 1608216712 158134 :Arcorann_!~awych@159-196-65-46.9fc441.mel.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1608216722 987064 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... for each name, there are always three door, in a permutation of those three states? < 1608216731 938490 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :three door*s* < 1608216773 229781 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :solving this puzzle is clearly in PSPACE, but I'd like to know what computational complexity it has more preciesly. with doors I can simulate one-way corridors, and level crossings (in case you want a planar graph). I can also make a level that takes exponential number of steps to solve, using a simple binary counter. but I don't know if you can simulate general binary storage. < 1608216779 252619 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yes < 1608216838 350579 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: and the three have a cyclic order, you can only pass through them in that order and not backwards, though you can pass through the same door multiple times without affecting that cyclic order, even if you pass through other doors between. and the cyclic order isn't quite enough, because the starting state has to be observed. < 1608216856 279610 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course you can put all the open doors in an unreachable area if you like < 1608216863 192987 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yes. < 1608216876 815462 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the toggle mechanic is the most relevant < 1608216892 31176 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other question that I'd like to know, besides computational complexity, is whether it's possible to make interesting puzzle levels from this, that is, ones that have only few doors and yet aren't trivial to solve. < 1608216920 169346 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: no < 1608216927 331424 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1608216930 662689 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: it's not a toggle mechanic, it's always a cyclic permutation of three < 1608216947 107126 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a cyclic shift, never mind < 1608216983 891916 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can simulate a toggle where you have to pass two *directed* corridor-paths alternatingly, using multiple doors, if you wish < 1608217000 971886 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(A O C) < 1608217005 308108 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that intentional? > 1608217005 323494 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Terse14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79479&oldid=37471 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-71) 10Introduction, proper == < 1608217009 617810 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: no < 1608217020 154752 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a fun coincidence then < 1608217022 683384 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1608217043 857007 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a low entropy one though < 1608217044 989354 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes it easier to remember < 1608217095 60646 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1608217159 226101 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, I'd also like to know if you can make interesting puzzle levels from some extensions of this; and references for where something like this game is already known < 1608217167 85754 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :.-A-.-C-.-O-. all with the same name is a directed edge (with some irrelevant extra state in the first door) :) < 1608217306 202330 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well, something to ponder... these kinds of things tend to take some time < 1608217313 152798 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I imagine it drawn more nethack-like: .#\#.#+#.#-#. where \ is an ajar door, + a closed door, - or | an open door in a horizontal or vertical corridor resp, and there's a letter close to each door next to the corridor that shows the names, plus there's color < 1608217378 172417 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if those states really only have just two edges, then optionally draw them on one corridor without a room, like .#\##+##-#. > 1608217386 410065 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:DGCK81LNN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79480&oldid=77358 5* 03DGCK81LNN 5* (+640) 10 < 1608217411 66049 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still allow the player to stand in those virtual rooms, because in the general case you may want to stop and turn in any of those places < 1608217419 346111 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :general case as in the names of the doors can differ < 1608217754 518428 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` unidecode $'\u26c4' < 1608217755 539450 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW] < 1608217759 304687 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that almost a contradiction? And why did I only know learn that exists, when http://unicodesnowmanforyou.com/ has been a thing for years. < 1608217828 706182 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode ⛄☃ < 1608217829 556725 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW] [U+2603 SNOWMAN] < 1608217855 228623 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's plastic or chocolate < 1608217872 149473 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no snowwoman < 1608217926 699084 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode 🌨🏔 < 1608217928 912875 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+1F328 CLOUD WITH SNOW] [U+1F3D4 SNOW CAPPED MOUNTAIN] < 1608217960 492180 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I skipped the snowflakes and some kanji) < 1608217994 88424 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I don't know what a snowman without snow is, but I feel repulsion towards the concept. I learned to ski as a small child, and a few times I had the terrible occasion to try these dry (i.e. without snow) ski pistes, where you ski on plastic tennis court floor with lubricants, and they're a really bad experience. I do admit that it's much cheaper than traveling to real ski pistes, so it's not just < 1608218000 94404 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pointless torture for children, but it's still torture. The dry piste is entirely flat with none of the interesting texture variations that a real snow terrain causes, and even besides that it feels bad. < 1608218066 909060 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` unidecode $'\u26c7' # you also skipped < 1608218067 874748 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+26C7 BLACK SNOWMAN] < 1608218080 503000 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which could just be a soot-covered one in the city. < 1608218156 877115 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ah yes, and I assume you combine any of these basic snowman code points with gender symbols, skin tone modifiers, hairstyle modifiers, eyelash style modifiers, eye color modifiers, height modifiers, chin shape modifiers, nose shape modifiers, headgear modifiers, etc, to get more complex characters < 1608218168 365854 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The shapes my browser's choice of fonts have for SNOWMAN, SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW and BLACK SNOWMAN are all completely different. SNOWMAN is this outline, BLACK SNOWMAN is filled but still just a (different) black-and-white shape, and SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW is this coloured monstrosity. < 1608218187 475302 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and perhaps with some vegetable emoji code points too to get snowman with particular vegetables used as their nose < 1608218270 384853 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: perhaps the plain snowman is from smaller fonts and the others from huge fallback fonts, and perhaps one is rendered as an emoji by default and the others aren't. you could try to force the font and the emojiness if you wish. < 1608218283 255709 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :emojis in unicode should be uninvented < 1608218307 453840 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :unintroduced, unimplemented, burnt with fire < 1608218316 618666 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :outroduced? < 1608218402 827379 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie did you solve day 3 part 2? < 1608218459 136353 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't touch day 3 yet (in Befunge-98). I've done days 1, 2, 5, 6 and first half of day 8. < 1608218459 826013 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it needs rereading the stdin and so storing it < 1608218571 121061 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine you *could* evaluate all five slopes at once as you go through it, though then you'd need to keep five counters at once (in addition to the current location). < 1608218605 801043 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think for day 3 I couldn't decide whether it would be okay to use the `i` instruction or not. < 1608218630 4787 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does the debugger you use look like? I see different images in google image search < 1608218651 372926 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just do ...........A,@ in random places and run until it hits and halts < 1608218651 618196 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing is, I'd kind of like all the solutions to keep the same structure of just reading puzzle input from stdin, but `i` needs a file name. I could use /dev/stdin maybe. < 1608218783 727492 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe '-'? < 1608218798 50303 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that'd work in the implementations I've got. < 1608218803 935596 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's some standard for naming the stdin, didn't know about /dev/stdin < 1608218837 201207 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's pretty common, yes, but it needs the program to interpret it. /dev/stdin has some chance of working even when not explicitly supported. < 1608218897 653624 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just skip until the next line, then skip number of chars calculated with modulo, but the case of "down 2" would need something else < 1608218934 75244 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like passing the how many times you skip until newline < 1608218937 932044 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I don't really have a "debugger" as such. I've been making do with `cfunge -t 10` (which just prints a trace like http://ix.io/2Ia8 out), plus that JS debugger (which has okay single-stepping and visualization, but can't do input, so it can only be used on fragments). I have a lot of ideas I'd like to see in my dream Befunge development tool (like per-cell annotations that'd be automatically shown on < 1608218943 938411 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :a multi-line status line), but it'd take effort to implement that. < 1608218965 560149 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's a bunch of Befunge-93 browser things, but for '98 the implementation situation seems a bit more bare. < 1608218998 106774 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately Ruby isn't tuned for GUI apps < 1608219007 857879 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean it has no cool libraries < 1608219038 298191 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :only some monstrous bindings, and when someone tried to make it as simple as possible that resulted in something limited < 1608219059 664683 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, a TUI is what I'd like anyway. I've been eyeing tcell (in Go) if I do start making it. < 1608219062 314814 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and wxwidgets were segfaulting and then abandoned AFAIK < 1608219205 155475 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :curses would do the job but it would also have to intercept the stdout < 1608219248 764023 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't be a problem though < 1608219340 919596 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn, I've got so much things to do and now I want to implement the debugger, oh no... < 1608219356 384676 :jess!jess@freenode/staff/jess QUIT :Quit: updates < 1608219474 591242 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want the playfield grid view to show cell values 32-126 as their printable ASCII counterparts, values 1-31 using the braille patterns as binary, value 0 maybe as WHITE DIAMOND and values <0 and >=127 as BLACK DIAMOND (of course showing the actual value on the status line). < 1608219479 817993 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I want two rows reserved for the cell annotations shown permanently, and I'd use the top line by convention for stack annotations, and I want the enter key to switch focus between the grid and the annotation window. < 1608219484 749690 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I want arrow keys to also as a side effect change the direction into which the cursor moves when you insert a character, but I also want to allow specifying a vector directly. < 1608219490 463701 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I want mod-space to set a mark that can be used to define a highlighted rectangular region, which can also have other rectangles or individual cells added to or removed from, so that the arbitrarily shaped region can then be moved around or copied. Possibly rotated with automatic treatment of <>v^ too (I know some Befunge IDEs do that), though I'm a bit ambivalent about that. < 1608219631 195619 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And obviously I also want a single-stepping debugger that defaults the grid to a view mode, but also allows switching the grid to edit mode to tweaks, and also shows (and allows changing) the stack. < 1608219670 538685 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and I want the grid view section to be arbitrarily splittable to frames which each have their own origin, though can also be set to track a specific IP. < 1608219692 491018 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :rasel would not need to display program space values since you don't write to it < 1608219725 154330 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :BefungeSharp might be closest already existing thing to what I want, and if it wasn't Windows-only, I might even consider using it. < 1608219737 889054 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead would need to display more stack values I guess < 1608219767 329338 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe, C# < 1608219788 998295 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine you might want something like different stack value display options, in case you often have complex data in a single value. < 1608219854 733831 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :rationals need more space than integers, yeah < 1608219915 732491 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't use numbers with fractional parts a lot but they exist at least temporary, when you emulate multiplication < 1608219930 35939 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other thing that exists is Bequnge, but I think it goes a little too far into the >2D stuff, visualizations, and sound effects. https://hatstand.github.io/Bequnge/screenshots.html < 1608219973 593215 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then again, as the author of GLfunge98, which was supposed to do exactly those similar things (except I abandoned it ages ago) I shouldn't probably be allowed to criticize. < 1608220002 13835 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, 3d, needs VR < 1608220063 595193 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's an HP-UX port of GLfunge98, which I find pleasantly odd. < 1608220104 515768 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Huh, has it really been 20 years since I did that? Feels like just yesterday.) < 1608220647 169347 :LKoen!~LKoen@29.248.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1608221288 387574 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kmbmcltopzjbaekd JOIN :#esoteric < 1608221579 513474 :TheLie!~TheLie@business-24-134-17-157.pool2.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1608221823 657064 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmm < 1608221833 411633 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :does Cat program have to exit with 0? < 1608221870 120864 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1608221880 637383 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat /foo exits with 1 < 1608221929 116598 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :my BSD one exits with 0 < 1608221940 766362 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1608221955 5361 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, it exists with 1 < 1608221965 634527 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but should it exit with 0 on success? < 1608222443 695068 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably. most programs should exit with 0 exit code on success, with the exception of a few programs that are specifically useful to test some condition, like test and grep < 1608222492 914644 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the answer is yes. we can fit it into the framework of https://arxiv.org/abs/1203.1895 using a door gadget like https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/aoc.png (which makes liberal use of directed edges as explained earlier) < 1608222541 613786 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the most relevant door is the blue door at the bottom (I should have highlighted it somehow); the diagram shows the open state at the top and the closed state below < 1608222665 857640 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(updated with a bit of emphasis for the relevant door) < 1608222719 722571 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ah, I didn't recall the exact conditions of that article. I'll have to re-read some of it. so apparently it's enough to have one door, one open button, and one close button linked together, rather than, say, multiple open buttons or multiple doors linked? < 1608222755 895185 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yep, one path is enough. furthermore, it's okay if the open path doesn't always work < 1608222767 944989 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so just adding a bypass like I did is okay < 1608222825 144450 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that part is from the earlier Sokoban article, not this one < 1608222835 386006 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1608223005 978240 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I lost track of the articles. The requirements of the door gadget can be found there anyway. < 1608223237 218691 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and crossover isn't needed as long as the graph is not required to be planar) < 1608223273 961970 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: sure, but for this game we can create a crossover gadget (though it's not cheap, so in a real puzzle version you might add that and one-way doors as primitives) < 1608223287 155847 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but in fact we can make one with the same principle shown by the green and red doors, without the blue one) < 1608223308 424295 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I did say above that I can make a crossover < 1608223324 247101 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, I didn't read, I was busy making my own gadget. < 1608223345 732968 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense, since I didn't say how to create a crossover < 1608223487 781883 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: oh wait. I should've seen it, but I skipped the middle part and focussed on the binary counter... < 1608223538 293583 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you even mentioned directed edges there < 1608223548 846905 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(one-way corridors) < 1608223798 475087 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: for puzzles though I guess you have to work actively against the fact that 2/3 of all edges are passable at any given time < 1608223800 528740 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, those are bisimulable with one-way gadgets < 1608223851 161825 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :to make a one-way corridor, you can just add a one-way gadget before and a one-way gadget after; to make a one-way gadget, make a one-way edge with an irrelevant open door < 1608223852 936186 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(So naively, I'd expect random puzzles to be very easy.) < 1608223893 852756 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: that would depend on how you sample random, but yes, I also figured it's not easy to just generate good puzzles randomly < 1608223929 153527 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are too many graphs and possiblel levels to brute force search all of them for potentially interesting ones < 1608224030 214000 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and adding one-ways and/or crossovers (or teleporters) as primitives doesn't change any of that < 1608224055 810762 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean it makes making puzzles slightly easier, but it still seems hard that way < 1608224142 133830 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just defined the base game without them for simplicity and elegance < 1608224191 809205 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would add such convenience things to a real puzzle implementation, because they make the puzzle easier to understand by humans. crossovers and one-ways are natural to understand, they make the puzzle easier to learn and navigate than the corresponding constructions. < 1608224203 954928 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, one more update to the png... lighter gray and I got rid of the spikes at the bottom of the ajar doors < 1608224244 739654 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the gadget is unchanged, I think it's pretty neat as it is. < 1608224292 772718 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :your graphical representation is very different from what I imagine. I use a top-view map of the maze, with doors drawn as short lines (as short as a corridor) from the same top view, and with letters (and optional colors) to mark matching ones < 1608224316 641886 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than side view doors < 1608224330 584692 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not a nethack player < 1608224346 596587 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that has a huge influence :) < 1608224403 209671 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(nor roguelikes in general, even graphical ones) < 1608224412 105665 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and also uppercasing the letter for currently ajar doors. the sequence of names of ajar doors you go through is enough to represent your solution in an easy way.) < 1608224553 16867 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I'm sure you can figure out your own preferred representation :-P < 1608225621 127754 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :caught another bug in '&' -- since it was working as reading the byte, then checking if it's a digit and then pushing it back when not, it failed if the file ends with integer instead of non-digit, such as newline < 1608225699 866800 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean not caught but found it while changing how ~ and & work; with working as trampoline instead of reversing the Cat program now does not need '#' and so is one char shorter < 1608225703 357415 :LKoen!~LKoen@29.248.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1608225711 200829 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :just ~@, < 1608226960 792208 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1608227064 436063 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Client Quit > 1608228184 217892 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07RASEL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79481&oldid=79472 5* 03Nakilon 5* (+69) 10~ and & now work as # unless EOF > 1608228304 733591 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07RASEL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79482&oldid=79481 5* 03Nakilon 5* (-1) 10cat program is 1 char shorter with the last specification update > 1608228734 766826 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07MyScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79483&oldid=70772 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+27) 10/* Simple class */ cat < 1608229064 375722 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kmbmcltopzjbaekd QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1608229512 866026 :TheLie!~TheLie@business-24-134-17-157.pool2.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1608231463 619290 :user24!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:c1f8:f74f:cb92:31a8 JOIN :#esoteric < 1608232540 713796 :delta23!~deltaepsi@d179-68-39-184.evv.wideopenwest.com QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1608234143 741480 :oren!~oren@ec2-34-239-129-109.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://corp.unicode.org/pipermail/unicode/2020-December/thread.html < 1608234165 614243 :oren!~oren@ec2-34-239-129-109.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unicode mailing list debates having italics... again < 1608234236 781909 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :please no italics < 1608234253 323323 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think they should also add bold, underline, subscript, superscript, strikethrough and blink < 1608234274 4898 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :and every combination of those < 1608234285 278145 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :blink, yes < 1608234290 208779 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :remember twhe they added emoji < 1608234291 669909 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when* < 1608234340 957047 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, blame japan for that < 1608234578 570734 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like emoji < 1608234578 640944 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i like that i can compatibly use them across multiple platforms < 1608234660 83210 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone near me has the vanity license plate "U1F47E" on their car < 1608234847 777263 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they could have no problem of compatibility at all < 1608234866 360376 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they didn't use it in the first place < 1608234939 74549 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :why no Putin emoji? < 1608235141 211304 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :feel free to submit a proposal for one < 1608235170 37039 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't propose bad ideas < 1608235180 806083 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a good policy < 1608235195 895110 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :emojis was a bad ide < 1608235197 145761 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :a < 1608235269 241064 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if they implement a bad idea, I just ask why don't they implement all other bad ideas < 1608235282 816188 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Get Things Done you know < 1608235286 589145 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol > 1608235943 402610 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:UClang*14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79484&oldid=79259 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+218) 10 > 1608236180 396909 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brain:D14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79485&oldid=79293 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+2) 10fix cat < 1608237311 121161 :jess!jess@freenode/staff/jess JOIN :#esoteric < 1608237680 279214 :delta23!~deltaepsi@d179-68-39-184.evv.wideopenwest.com JOIN :#esoteric > 1608238862 668305 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish "self-interpreter"14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79486&oldid=73108 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+75) 10/* See also */ cats < 1608239542 895256 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.228.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric : but if they implement a bad idea, I just ask why don't they implement all other bad ideas => well, nobody has infinite resources, obviously < 1608239623 100142 :LKoen!~LKoen@29.248.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1608239929 489714 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.228.48 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1608240146 285513 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that Unicode is messy < 1608240492 986670 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1608240587 825048 :user24!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:c1f8:f74f:cb92:31a8 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds > 1608241745 636684 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:UClang*14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79487&oldid=79484 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+204) 10/* A4 and A5 */ new section < 1608243004 346295 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.9 < 1608245475 70099 :Arcorann_!~awych@159-196-65-46.9fc441.mel.nbn.aussiebb.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1608247296 792730 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I turned on "force dark" in Chrome as a test, and our very own Wiki renders badly. :/ https://zem.fi/tmp/esodark.png < 1608247386 719423 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then again, so does Wikipedia, and arguably it's even a little worse. So maybe it's Not Our Fault. < 1608247699 311948 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm not sure what all exactly the flag does. I guess I'd just like the "prefer dark if the website has it" setting, but AFAICT maybe Chrome on Linux doesn't have that setting, since there's no standard system-wide thing. At least https://support.google.com/chrome/answer/9275525?co=GENIE.Platform%3DDesktop&oco=1 just lists Mac OS and Windows.) < 1608247820 276556 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:7285:c2ff:fe0b:917f JOIN :#esoteric < 1608248064 234802 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently it's even got a setting for that as part of Developer Tools ("Emulate CSS media feature prefers-color-scheme" → dark), but not something you could just turn on. < 1608248336 102073 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, turns out there's a command-line flag. Well, better than nothing. < 1608249052 131271 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu