< 1608251449 12157 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:7285:c2ff:fe0b:917f QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1608252819 925799 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07RASEL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79488&oldid=79482 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+14) 10/* Hello, World! */ rm redirect < 1608253203 767562 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric > 1608253565 982611 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Geo14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79489&oldid=53330 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-8) 10Unpipe > 1608253638 509489 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Scan14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79490&oldid=53334 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+5) 10unpipe ; hd > 1608254036 954067 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SON-OF-UNBABTIZED14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79491&oldid=38964 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+5545) 10Obligatory sample code < 1608254242 36669 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does the dark mode work for web pages without any CSS specified, or with CSS specified but no colours specified? > 1608254313 531071 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07PUSH14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79492&oldid=78838 5* 03Expliked 5* (+4) 10 < 1608254811 879063 :LegionMammal978!181e4e3e@c-24-30-78-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1608254891 71499 :LegionMammal978!181e4e3e@c-24-30-78-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: In Flipfractal, what happens when you hit an entry-point character from something other than its opposing direction? < 1608254948 978505 :LegionMammal978!181e4e3e@c-24-30-78-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :E.g., if I enter a V going right, do I exit the + in the parent program going right or going up? < 1608254984 512580 :V!v@anomalous.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would not recommend that < 1608255011 943906 :V!v@anomalous.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems needlessly painful > 1608255190 668592 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Clementine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79493&oldid=72568 5* 03CatIsFluffy 5* (+23) 10done < 1608255305 285296 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the less painful way of entering a V? < 1608255322 173837 :V!v@anomalous.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shikhin: from the back < 1608255330 662163 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin PRIVMSG #esoteric :I-I see. < 1608255332 616089 :V!v@anomalous.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or the front, depending on taste < 1608255359 30639 :LegionMammal978!181e4e3e@c-24-30-78-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait a second, that page was only saying you were the one who created Memfractal, it was worded confusingly < 1608255376 402787 :V!v@anomalous.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shikhin: look, I chose not to say it, but you chose to ask < 1608255381 111804 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haha. < 1608255387 614742 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is my fault. < 1608255390 316444 :LegionMammal978!181e4e3e@c-24-30-78-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1608255402 425303 :V!v@anomalous.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear < 1608255406 489336 :V!v@anomalous.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like we've scared them off < 1608255474 463470 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh dear. < 1608256018 912459 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :LegionMammal978: I did not invent Flipfractal, and yes I agree it is worded confusingly. < 1608256201 350826 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1608256221 616500 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: zzo38: there is apparently an unofficial standard for gopher over TLS < 1608256233 189788 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1608256245 552466 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is very simple, too: you just make a TLS connection on port 70 < 1608256267 124154 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a gophers server distinguishes between gopher-over-TLS and regular gopher by checking to see whether the first thing the client sends is a TLS handshake) < 1608256270 575196 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1608256312 916842 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the thing with TLS where the server must identify all the domain names it possibly knows about and then the client checks whether it matches? < 1608256314 267023 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1608256322 158472 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather than the cient saying what domain name it thinks it's accessing. < 1608256327 871187 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems bizarre to me. < 1608256363 356368 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like one of the many variants of SNI < 1608256373 108120 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :TCP is presumably just a dead end if you want efficient networking protocols. < 1608256383 914063 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the basic problem is that in most TLS connections, the server name indication is sent in the clear, so anyone listening in knows what site you're connecting < 1608256390 410432 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there have been various proposals to remedy that < 1608256412 933204 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :With TLS being one of the reasons. < 1608256428 673133 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I see, so eavesdroppers know whether I'm connecting to youtube.com vs. google.com or something. < 1608256439 69838 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the basic problem is that it's hard to deploy anything like this at a small scale, because with a small hosting company, you can normally figure out which site is being connected to simply from the IP < 1608256449 258018 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you might want to keep that information secret, especially with DNS becoming encrypted these days. < 1608256460 323378 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in order to really keep it private, you need a wide range of different sites that are all hosted from the same IP so people aren't sure which is which < 1608256482 813508 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cloudflare apparently added some sort of encrypted SNI recently, because they have the right sort of infrastructure for that < 1608256542 602743 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a little surprised that gopher is still being developed nowadays (at least, within the last couple of years) < 1608256561 124936 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but apparently some people like it due to the lack of things like JavaScript-based adverts because the protocol can't handle them < 1608256601 80867 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gophers are OK but kitty cats are where it's at, if you ask me. < 1608256631 667757 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that the web browser is the wrong place to implement encrypted DNS, since DNS is something that you will want many programs to use, not only the web browser. < 1608256635 244892 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, cat has even fewer features than gopher < 1608256670 42430 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is QUIC a good alternative to TCP? < 1608256763 44192 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one issue I've discovered with TCP is that in practice, you seem to need to duplicate a lot of TCP functionality to get reliable connections even when you're using TCP < 1608256772 995976 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in real life, TCP connections have a tendency to break for no reason < 1608256777 169743 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this somehow even happens on localhost < 1608256820 835792 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :using TLS over TCP increases the frequency at which this happens, but probably just because more data is sent < 1608256887 871531 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, an idea I had recently: an equivalent of HTTP headers but for files on a filesystem (e.g. in the directory entry for a file) < 1608256901 754219 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it struck me that HTTP headers are already a widely used standard for file metadata < 1608256962 644279 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, my "httpdirlist" format is similar, using the same format of HTTP headers to make a directory listing format for use with HTTP, with blank lines separating directory entries. < 1608257022 431883 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it strikes me as something of a security hole that I can't just put a file in a directory that a web browser serves, and know for certain that it won't get misinterpreted in a format I don't expect and that happens to do something malicious < 1608257027 382511 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps having a file in that format might also be helpful for loading "file:" URLs in a web browser, so that it can know the MIME type of each file. < 1608257046 695065 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(e.g. there was an incident on #esoteric a while ago where someone managed a successful XSS attacks against the raw log files, even though they're plaintext) < 1608257191 285219 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but you should fix the HTTP server to specify the correct MIME type, presumably always text/plain for the raw log files < 1608257219 304768 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but some browsers will override the MIME type if it appears to be wrong < 1608257282 118752 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nowadays there is «X-Content-Type-Options: nosniff» which tells the browser that the MIME type is correct and should not be changed < 1608257353 272426 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use that, then, although I should think that the web browser should never override the MIME type specified by the server unless the user explicitly specifies a different MIME type < 1608257484 156784 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently this option is not respected by IE < 8 < 1608257496 204701 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there would still be a potential for XSS attacks against plaintext files on IE7 and earlier < 1608257498 908172 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(does anyone still use those?) < 1608257673 777800 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1608257794 261031 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: What about HFS forks? < 1608257885 504391 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Mac filesystems have something similar to the HTTP idea I had < 1608257900 174402 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, I think they used something proprietary to specify file types, not MIME < 1608257905 609196 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :back when I last looked < 1608257908 921219 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe they're using MIME nowadays < 1608258048 352166 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wow, now I'm reading about CORB < 1608258052 873898 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is kind-of eso < 1608258096 14648 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the basic idea is that there are only a few types of thing that can be included into a web page via a cross-origin request, such as scripts and images < 1608258138 572789 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if a web page tries to make a cross-origin request using or