2020-12-01: 00:13:01 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 01:08:35 `? device 01:08:37 A device is a browser session. Please verify your device. 01:11:18 `? password 01:11:20 The password of the month is Florida Recount 2.0 01:15:05 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:17:22 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined. 01:17:40 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23. 01:40:37 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 01:40:45 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:45:24 -!- none30 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:50:08 -!- none30 has joined. 02:21:09 yeah. someone grab that password in the morning or I'll change it tomorrow evening. 02:23:36 With the randomly sprinkled capital letters, some parts of the US constitution sound like extracts from a fantasy RPG. 02:23:40 "The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted." 02:23:46 I'm thinking specifically of that "Corruption of Blood" part. 02:24:28 -!- earend1 has joined. 02:46:58 is it random or is it all nouns, German style? 02:49:04 it looks like most nouns, but I notice that "defence" is not capitalized in the preamble 02:58:21 Sure, it's not random. But I don't think it's quite all nouns either. Not all the instances of "time" are capitalized, but some are. "No Senator or Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected -- shall have been encreased during such time --". 02:59:23 So I guess it's about how the word is used in the sentence. It does look pretty German. 03:04:37 interesting 03:20:02 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 03:27:06 okay, Hiding Spot is cute. 03:30:26 shachaf: I got Pipe Push as well. That one feels a bit more Sokoban-like, but has a (literal) twist. 03:31:32 and it has the advantage of working under Linux 03:32:16 Anyway, made it up to 609 in the former... that one will require some more thought. 03:32:22 The other one worked fine for me. 03:32:33 I guess I used Steam and it used some sort of Wine thing to run it. 03:32:55 Is 609 the level with the long corridor and the three or four stools? 03:37:13 sounds accurate 03:37:36 https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/609.png 03:37:47 (I made a screenshot before booting to Linux ;) 03:37:55 Oh and I didn't try it in steam 03:40:13 Yes, that's the one I stopped on too. 03:40:14 I think of them as (small) tables. They're cute. 03:40:40 Yes, they're more table-like. 03:43:28 I tried the itch download in plain wine and it didn't work there, but who cares. All it means is I won't play it on a whim. 03:47:43 Oh level 101 was hard too :P 03:56:28 101? 03:56:54 the very first one? which drops you into the game with no objective? 03:58:18 Oh, maybe I got a clue from the name. 03:58:24 Or from my own inclinations in life. 03:59:54 it took me a while to realize that the game name may be relevant 04:00:48 not ages, 5 minutes maybe? but long enough to feel a little bit stuck 04:31:10 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:32:48 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 04:35:41 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 04:39:34 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 04:58:39 -!- arseniiv has joined. 05:31:35 oh I guess AoC is live 05:31:36 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:37:32 -!- arseniiv has joined. 05:56:38 -!- kkd has changed nick to memxor. 05:56:55 -!- memxor has changed nick to kkd. 06:19:20 Oh no. 06:19:29 Does every vector space finally have a basis? 06:20:05 yes 06:20:23 `? aoc 06:20:25 Advent of Code (AoC) is a series of programming puzzles that some regulars enjoy, found at "https://adventofcode.com/2019/about". 06:21:09 `slwd aoc//s/2019/2020/ 06:21:11 aoc//Advent of Code (AoC) is a series of programming puzzles that some regulars enjoy, found at "https://adventofcode.com/2020/about". 06:21:33 Art of Confusion 06:31:42 `? member 06:31:44 I'm sorry, #esoteric has regulars, not members. Who told you about members? There are definitely no members here, and you wouldn't be allowed to know about them, anyway. 06:33:20 sounds suspect 06:41:48 `grwp suspect|suspicious 06:41:50 No output. 06:41:58 `grwp suspect\|suspicious 06:41:59 esoterra:Esoterra is the planet of Esoterrans, also known as Esolangers. The proof of its existence is non-constructive, although some suspect that it is in fact Earth. \ örjan:Örjan is the diæresed twin. He will punctuate your vöẅëls, and maybe a few other unsuspecting letters. \ snow:Snow is Jesus's dandruffs, and some suspect that he is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen. It turns the sidewalks to white as if someone broke a lot of styrofo 06:42:30 `2 grwp suspect\|suspicious 06:42:32 2/0: 06:42:35 no? 06:42:58 `2 grwp suspect\\\|suspicious 06:42:59 2/2:rofoam on it. \ the usual suspect:There are 3.99 usual suspects in #esoteric, but they're usually rounded up. \ usual suspect:There are 3.99 usual suspects in #esoteric, but they're usually rounded up. 06:47:08 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:47:31 -!- xelxebar has joined. 06:55:13 `grwp war|warfare 06:55:14 No output. 06:55:20 `grwp crazy 06:55:21 No output. 06:55:42 `grwp a 06:55:43 ​𝕈:𝕈 would be the set of rational numbers, if the Unicode Consortium weren't idiots who put it as ℚ. \ :The final frontier. \ !:! is a syntax used in Haskell and Prolog for solving evaluation order problems. \ *:Twinkle, twinkle, little star! \ @:@ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour. \ \:\ was initially popular as a replacement for the solidus, but inevitably there was a backslash. \ ^:^ (also notated by ⊕ or ⊻) is the 07:00:21 huh. 'Because of an outage during the day 1 puzzle unlock, day 1 is worth no points.' 07:03:14 “With the randomly sprinkled capital letters, some parts of the US constitution sound like extracts from a fantasy RPG. […] Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted. […] I used Steam and it used some sort of Wine thing to run it.” 07:05:02 * delta23 screams vapourwaves on an irc client running on an OS made out of only the finest vapour 07:05:36 delta23: you sound esoteric 07:12:21 -!- kkd has changed nick to agsdyugau. 07:12:28 -!- tromp has joined. 07:12:39 -!- agsdyugau has changed nick to kkd. 07:59:50 -!- TheLie has joined. 08:26:05 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:45:31 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:45:56 -!- xelxebar has joined. 08:57:13 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:23:47 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:24:00 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:24:06 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 09:24:56 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 09:24:56 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 09:39:56 I think that joke languages that don't work should not belong in the "Languages" category, although someone added both categories for "NOT A PROGRAM" and I think that is wrong. Maybe it might be appropriate for some things, but for most it is not appropriate to put both. (Even a joke language that does work might not belong in both, but then it can be more debated, I suppose.) 09:44:58 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:17:21 https://www.research.ibm.com/haifa/ponderthis/challenges/November2020.html the didn't give me a * but I did answer the * part too 10:41:19 rain1: try sending them another mail... worked for me 10:42:39 * int-e is still trying to figure out how to pack two solutions into a single mail and have the new Ponder manager notice 10:44:03 Probably the solution is to put both solutions right at the top of the mail and only then write an explanation (which I suspect isn't read anyway). 10:44:35 (but I'm usually happy to write an explanation up for my own benefit) 10:54:26 ah 10:54:32 i thought maybe I got it wrong 10:54:58 I /think/ they reply if they find a mistake. 11:00:01 I'm still wondering what their intended solutions for the bonus part looked like... it can easily be done in less than 20 steps. 11:02:14 I wondered that as well 11:05:23 Btw I found the December problem quite difficult to parse. 11:23:13 -!- TheLie has joined. 11:24:12 -!- LKoen has joined. 11:33:53 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 11:45:41 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:30:18 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:41:39 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:11:31 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:14:13 -!- earend1 has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 13:15:41 -!- TheLie has joined. 13:25:55 [[Simpler Subskin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79061&oldid=58681 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* Complexity class */ ln 14:25:56 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:52:55 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:09:56 -!- rain1 has joined. 15:52:45 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:46:58 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:59:16 -!- TheLie has joined. 18:11:13 nobody set the new password? 18:11:17 I'll have to set one then 18:12:02 `learn The password of the month is wake these token brings 18:12:07 Relearned 'password': The password of the month is wake these token brings 18:12:12 `? password 18:12:13 The password of the month is wake these token brings 18:25:52 -!- arseniiv has joined. 18:45:23 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 19:08:01 now I'm curious what last month's password was 19:16:08 `before 19:16:13 ​/hackenv/wisdom/password//The password of the month is Florida Recount 2.0 19:25:31 -!- sprocklem has joined. 19:26:42 -!- imode has joined. 19:38:11 `password 19:38:12 mmtzyqijzhukink 19:53:32 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:14:51 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:15:32 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 20:15:32 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 20:15:32 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 20:59:28 -!- aaaaaa has joined. 21:16:19 -!- MDude has joined. 21:19:58 [[Template:ItalicTitle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79062&oldid=78247 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) n 21:40:46 int-e: It's AoC time of the year again. 21:44:35 I have a idea of Magic: the Gathering which is: {?} World Enchantment ;; When ~ enters the battlefield or dies, target player draws a card. ;; Creatures attacking players with no cards in their hand have -1/-1. 22:10:15 -!- Arcorann has joined. 22:11:16 -!- Arcorann has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:11:40 -!- Arcorann has joined. 22:28:02 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:42:36 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:44:43 -!- aaaaaa has joined. 22:58:26 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined. 22:58:26 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23. 23:32:48 -!- tromp_ has joined. 23:34:45 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 2020-12-02: 00:32:42 Do you like this? Do you suggest a name and mana cost? 00:32:48 (Or other changes?) 00:38:19 [[BAM128]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79063&oldid=79030 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20) /* Print Numbers from 0 to 127 */ knit 00:39:15 Isn't World Enchantment deprecated? 00:41:41 fizzie: https://esolangs.org/logs/2020-12-01.html#lY 00:42:02 It is still fully supported, and I will still use it in custom cards. 00:42:37 int-e: Oh, I missed that. 00:43:40 I'm half-expecting day 2 to have some sort of vaguely esolang-y recurring theme again. 00:43:42 `? password 00:43:43 The password of the month is wake these token brings 00:47:03 * int-e is wondering how the payment for the first day problem is supposed to work 00:47:38 "look at this poor guy doing his own expenses, he must be completely out of luck, here, have a gold starfish" 00:48:07 and then there's the matter of researching your destination when traveling... 00:48:19 I feel that the story is kind of weak this year :P 00:48:33 Well, maybe it'll have a twist. 00:48:35 s/when/before/ 00:49:19 Or maybe this is the travel preparation? Hmm. Maybe. 00:50:29 Hmm. I was pretty sure I had been using my GitHub account to log in to this thing, but now that I did, I can only see the two stars from 2020, and 4 from 2017 somehow. (Not sure if I just abandoned it in 2017.) 00:50:39 Maybe I used the Google account instead, after all. 00:51:54 Yeah, that one has 50 stars from 2019. Hmm. Can't decide which one to stick with. 00:53:04 alternate! 00:53:22 Maybe I'll stick with the Google account, it's got some actual points from day 10 of 2019 when I was accidentally awake at 5am and did it real-time. 00:53:36 I totally overengineered the first day solutions. 00:54:28 (I wrote the first program before downloading the input and seeing that it was only 200 lines.) 00:54:33 I didn't, but I spent time refactoring my 2019 Go repository to better fit multiple years in the same repo. 00:55:07 2019 didn't have a repo. 00:55:31 2020 does, if I keep up committing 00:55:41 I had three for 2019. ;) 00:55:58 two commits so far: 2 stars/add .gitignore 00:56:05 three, hmm 00:56:25 I copied a lot of code around in 2019, that is a form of versioning, right? 00:57:50 I had one with super-scrappy Python solutions but with ridiculously extensive (Markdown) notes about the problems and solutions; the Go one, which did a little bit of software-engineering-y stuff like unit tests for everything (well, almost); and the third one for that Processing.js thing, but I only did two days there. 00:57:57 https://paste.debian.net/1175185/ 00:59:04 (before day 7, the interpreter was not even a separate module) 01:00:25 http://ix.io/2Gd8 -- kinda equivalent 01:00:49 [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79064&oldid=63412 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* External links */ unimplemented (please correct if wrong) 01:01:19 -!- shinh has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:01:25 And the day 25 version is different because I added some ad-hoc tracing... I don't even remember why :) 01:01:40 (log1 = log --oneline --decorate=full --graph) 01:02:34 My day 25 change seems to have been to add an `ascii` IO mode so I could play the adventure game "manually". 01:02:43 https://paste.debian.net/1175186/ 01:03:13 I could do that without modifying the compiler... thanks to lazy evaluation I think 01:03:48 http://ix.io/2Gd9 -- in the best Python style of "just stick some string in there instead of the expected type of object". 01:03:56 And I had abbreviations for n,e,s,w,t=take,d=drop. 01:04:20 The queue.Queue in there was for running those multithreaded intcode things actually multithreaded, I think. :) 01:05:09 hah 01:05:56 (map (fromIntegral . ord) (unlines ts)) <-- "ASCII mode" 01:07:25 Someone's starred the fungot repo 21 days ago. :) 01:07:25 fizzie: he knew they had galloped into ephebe. he should be killed. there's something honest about slaves and whips. well... i'm just going out,' said agnes. 01:07:37 fungot: That's a little harsh, don't you think? 01:07:37 fizzie: " inadvisably, sir." vimes relaxed a bit,' it said. " you know you said it would help if you think of me 01:07:38 Ah! 01:07:47 The tracing was for the weight comparisons. 01:08:54 So I could see which numbers were compared, and determine individual weights and target weight 01:09:01 My day 25 solution just brute-forces the door by doing itertools.combinations(items, size) and spamming drop/take as required. 01:09:49 Yeah I never did that :) 01:10:52 But I don't recall how I found the relevant locations... quite possibly I traced *all* SLT instructions at some point 01:10:53 "Great repository names are short and memorable. Need inspiration? How about ideal-disco?" 01:11:08 ?! 01:11:08 Maybe you meant: v @ ? . 01:11:16 (I'm considering pushing the 2019 solutions online now that 2020 has rolled around.) 01:11:35 I'm not sure what github was thinking when they added those suggestions. 01:12:10 Probably just to show they're not so stodgy and serious. 01:12:52 Imagine just taking that suggestion whenever you create a new repo... 01:13:29 I guess it's not my kind of humor. 01:13:41 memorability is important, brevity is not 01:14:01 (you can always check the thing out under a shorter name) 01:14:08 Huh. I've got uncommitted changes in the Python repo. 01:14:36 They seem to be all just going from 'foo {} bar'.format(baz) to f'foo {baz} bar' though. 01:20:56 https://github.com/fis/aoc-py/blob/main/readme.md -- no idea why I wrote all of that, there's nothing particularly clever about any of the solutions. 01:22:18 [[Brainstuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79065&oldid=34524 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+41) /* External resources */ ctatt 01:22:43 [[Brainstuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79066&oldid=79065 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* Examples */ cat 01:25:46 "These puzzles are getting to be Intcode-related in name only." 01:28:10 oh right, I remember comparing maps for day 25 01:28:31 (the mazes were random) 01:29:42 -!- shinh has joined. 01:31:49 so nobody did write an intcode interpreter in intcode yet? 01:32:09 I think interest in Intcode kind of petered out post-AoC. 01:32:55 yeah it's not that interesting 01:32:56 I remember I was writing annotated disassembly of the puzzle Intcode programs, with the intent of maybe adding them to the article (at least as links), but probably gave up. 01:32:57 Same here. 01:33:05 easier subleq 01:33:33 fizzie: Oh I actually finished a disassembly of mine (the day 25 one). 01:33:49 I'm sure I shared it back then 01:34:13 Probably. I think we also argued a bit about the best conventions for Intcode assembly, but I didn't finish (or even really start) the assembler. 01:34:49 I think in the end it's too normal. 01:36:34 Looks like I've actually finished commenting the disassembled versions of days 5, 7 and 13, but did not commit them. 01:36:54 Day 13 was that breakout clone. 01:37:26 http://ix.io/2Gdh 01:37:50 Oh I actually automated that one it seems. 01:38:40 which is probably the only sane thing to do seeing that the panel has size 1. 01:38:57 Did you see the creator's compiler? 01:39:10 no 01:39:18 https://github.com/topaz/aoc2019-intcode 01:39:27 Uploaded a couple of days ago 01:40:16 I did figure out the calling convention though, and that it supports function pointers 01:40:55 I remember reverse-engineering the square-in-the-beam code 01:41:07 (see notes in https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/dis.txt near the top) 01:42:28 Looks like the only instructions my proposed syntax has matching are add/mul/in/out; I used jnz/jz/setlt/seteq/setb/halt where they have jt/jf/lt/eq/rbo/hlt. 01:42:34 'rbo' is a curious choice. 01:42:42 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:42:46 "Reset Base Offset"? I'unno. 01:43:05 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 01:43:52 I had INCB 01:44:14 the register was called "relative base", right 01:44:18 Right, it had some logic like that. 01:44:23 so that's "relative base offset" 01:44:39 (that's my guess at least) 01:45:08 they don't seem to be a fan of adding verbs like "set" to the mnemonic 01:45:36 Aw, the Arecibo telescope collapsed completely now. 01:45:50 I had add/mul/inp/out/jnz/jez/clt/ceq/srb in the comments of my debugger 01:46:00 I guess I wanted everything to be 3 characters 01:46:36 Arcorann: my choices are in https://esolangs.org/wiki/Intcode, because I wrote the "Proposed Assembly Syntax" section 01:48:04 I was planning to implement the syntax http://ix.io/25xa but didn't. 01:48:27 It used `*x` for mode 0, a naked `x` for mode 1 and the same `@x` for mode 2. 01:48:27 hmm, actually that's a surprisingly low level language 01:48:43 Somehow @ makes a lot of sense for the relative addressing mode. 01:49:16 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:54:04 Oh apparently I used STOP for HALT when preparing that disassembly... oh well. 01:54:55 fizzie: I left the mode 0 unadorned because it came first, and also because AT&T assembly does something similar... 01:55:21 And that's also where the # comes from. 01:55:51 Your choice makes about the same amount of sense, to me. 01:57:15 So what else is there... having labels on operands is kind of cute. 01:57:45 Oh, right, forgot I did that. 01:59:01 I didn't. The author did. He also used * the way you're using it. 01:59:58 (but not when using a label as an operand... in that case, the * is implicit) 03:30:58 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:46:05 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:46:58 -!- xelxebar has joined. 04:50:54 [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript: Unlimited recursion and TCO]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79067 * Hakerh400 * (+6414) Unlimited recursion and TCO 04:50:59 [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79068&oldid=79018 * Hakerh400 * (+101) /* Articles */ 04:52:22 [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript: Unlimited recursion and TCO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79069&oldid=79067 * Hakerh400 * (-5) 04:54:34 [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript: Unlimited recursion and TCO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79070&oldid=79069 * Hakerh400 * (+43) 04:55:11 [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript: Unlimited recursion and TCO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79071&oldid=79070 * Hakerh400 * (+2) /* Example 1 */ 05:00:23 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined. 05:00:43 -!- deltaepsilon23 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:01:18 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined. 05:02:27 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23. 05:48:29 [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript: Unlimited recursion and TCO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79072&oldid=79071 * Hakerh400 * (+423) Added minified version 05:53:10 [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript: Unlimited recursion and TCO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79073&oldid=79072 * Hakerh400 * (-1) 06:44:03 shinh: I found snow. 06:51:15 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Quit: leaving). 06:57:34 hmm 06:57:38 shachaf: ^^ 06:58:58 @metar lowi 06:58:59 LOWI 020650Z VRB01KT 8000 SCT010 BKN013 M00/M02 Q1014 NOSIG 07:03:57 Seems difficult to find snow in those conditions, but perhaps not impossible. 07:06:59 "Slack is where work happens." 07:07:14 shachaf: Ah, not in real life (yet). 07:07:36 Yes, I figured. 07:07:36 @metar koak 07:07:36 KOAK 020653Z 00000KT 10SM FEW200 09/04 A3015 RMK AO2 SLP209 T00890044 07:07:38 Unless I look at mountain peaks nearby... I bet there's snow there. 07:08:18 https://vcdn.bergfex.at/webcams/archive.new/downsized/7/1587/2020/12/02/1587_2020-12-02_0745_688d47e0ed941b8b.jpg 07:08:44 (And now I'm wondering how long that link will work) 07:14:18 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 07:22:15 Which other instruction sets define shift amounts out of range in the same way that Glulx does? 07:42:48 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine). 07:45:11 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 08:35:56 -!- manjaro has joined. 08:37:25 -!- manjaro has quit (Client Quit). 08:50:57 -!- arseniiv has joined. 08:53:16 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 09:09:44 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:18:31 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 09:18:31 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 09:46:55 -!- TheLie has joined. 09:56:20 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 10:16:09 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 10:26:37 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 10:46:16 [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79074&oldid=78745 * Aspwil * (+108) /* Instructions */ 10:50:20 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:20:40 -!- rain1 has joined. 11:23:35 -!- rain1 has quit (Client Quit). 11:38:39 -!- sebbu has quit (Quit: reboot). 11:41:59 -!- rain1 has joined. 11:42:54 173 islands[1~mmm 11:49:22 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 11:56:28 -!- sebbu has joined. 11:57:26 -!- rain1 has joined. 12:03:57 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:06:25 -!- rain1 has joined. 12:08:16 -!- rain1 has quit (Client Quit). 12:11:44 Oh no。 12:11:48 I'd better get back to it. 12:16:52 -!- LKoen has joined. 12:26:54 -!- rain1 has joined. 12:28:19 -!- rain1 has quit (Client Quit). 12:30:28 -!- rain1 has joined. 12:35:20 -!- LKoen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:35:50 -!- LKoen has joined. 12:46:04 They promised some snow in London later in the week, but now I think they've taken that back, it's going to be just rain. 12:48:28 [[Markup anguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79075&oldid=44797 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+54) cats 13:16:41 [[Mark C. Chu-Carroll]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79076&oldid=30725 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+47) fix blog link 13:27:18 [[Unlambda]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79077&oldid=75302 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* Palindromes */ Waybcak 13:39:50 [[Talk:Tag]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79078&oldid=20018 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) Unsigned 13:45:38 -!- Arcorann has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:47:45 -!- Arcorann has joined. 13:50:51 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 13:55:39 -!- b_jonas has joined. 14:02:22 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined. 14:02:46 -!- delta23 has quit (Disconnected by services). 14:02:50 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23. 14:10:50 `? aoc 14:10:51 Advent of Code (AoC) is a series of programming puzzles that some regulars enjoy, found at "https://adventofcode.com/2020/about". 14:32:38 Hmm, nothing on day 2 that could play a similar role as Intcode last year (as in, something shared across multiple days). Well, maybe later. 14:33:53 day 2 seems boring 14:54:59 The first few problems are relatively easy, it'll ramp up as we go 14:55:13 (you can look at previous years if you want) 15:00:09 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:14:09 -!- FreeFull has joined. 15:15:28 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:18:03 [[User:Moon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79079&oldid=66766 * Moon * (+0) fix to use new username 15:21:10 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:42:25 Yeah, it's just that day 2 last year did introduce Intcode. 15:44:05 fizzie: which was odd in that it was an even numbered day 15:44:28 shachaf: 301 islands now 15:45:28 Does this game ever end? (I've seen a likely ending spot though. In fact I guessed that through the clouds because it looks like the start. But now I've been close and seen a boat waiting there.) 15:46:08 (However, there were some rocks blocking it off... and then the float I came in on took me far, far away again.) 15:47:51 half of the islands are (or seem to be, for now) fillers anyway, serving as bridges between more interesting ones 15:56:31 int-e: where are you with so many islands? (what game are you playing?) 15:59:19 A Monster's Expedition 16:31:11 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 16:59:32 -!- rain1 has joined. 17:08:53 [[$ $]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79080&oldid=78753 * LegionMammal978 * (+12) Undo revision 78753 by [[Special:Contributions/3s0!an9 b0y|3s0!an9 b0y]] ([[User talk:3s0!an9 b0y|talk]]); there's already an implementation 17:15:05 [[Talk:Structure]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79081 * LegionMammal978 * (+292) Created page with "Does this language have any input or output? Also, you never really define how "pointer information" vs. "direct information" is supposed to work, especially with <&g..." 17:33:49 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:37:22 [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[SimpIe progranning Ianguage]] to [[SimpIe progranning language]]: fix title 17:39:30 [[SimpIe progranning language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79084&oldid=79082 * LegionMammal978 * (+5) fixed name 17:42:39 [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[.Oneline]] to [[OneLine]]: fix title 17:44:39 [[OneLine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79087&oldid=79085 * LegionMammal978 * (-18) fixed name 17:44:55 [[Oneline]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79088&oldid=74518 * LegionMammal978 * (+34) 17:45:46 [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79089&oldid=79033 * LegionMammal978 * (-1) 17:46:14 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79090&oldid=79055 * LegionMammal978 * (-1) 17:46:40 [[Expensive]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79091 * Hakerh400 * (+1265) +[[Expensive]] 17:46:44 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79092&oldid=79017 * Hakerh400 * (+16) +[[Expensive]] 17:46:47 [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79093&oldid=79068 * Hakerh400 * (+16) +[[Expensive]] 17:46:53 [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79094&oldid=79056 * LegionMammal978 * (-1) 17:47:08 [[User:Zenenbee]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79095&oldid=78959 * LegionMammal978 * (-1) 17:47:19 [[Multiline]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79096&oldid=78973 * LegionMammal978 * (-1) 18:24:45 [[Talk:SHAat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79097&oldid=79037 * LegionMammal978 * (+483) 18:30:08 -!- aaaaaa has joined. 18:55:16 -!- imode has joined. 19:15:53 -!- diverger has joined. 19:25:54 -!- NeverBorn has joined. 19:26:24 -!- NeverBorn has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:47:08 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:57:24 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined. 19:57:31 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23. 20:13:25 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 20:28:35 [[Talk:Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79098&oldid=63540 * LegionMammal978 * (+25) you forgot to define c 21:10:48 [[Expensive]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79099&oldid=79091 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+43) sknil + tac 21:12:45 [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript: Unlimited recursion and TCO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79100&oldid=79073 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Example 1 */ spl 21:15:26 int-e: Yeah, it's the oddest prime. 21:39:04 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 21:40:12 -!- MDude has joined. 21:46:54 [[Structure]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79101&oldid=78755 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) Give Structure some structure (ha-ha) and rm/add cat (not pattern-based, is it?) 21:47:53 [[Structure]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79102&oldid=79101 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* Syntax */ link 22:00:57 -!- sprocklem has joined. 22:05:47 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined. 22:06:08 -!- delta23 has quit (Disconnected by services). 22:06:12 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23. 22:11:49 -!- Arcorann has joined. 22:12:54 -!- Arcorann has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:13:19 -!- Arcorann has joined. 23:14:27 -!- FreeFull has quit. 23:49:02 [[05AB1E]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79103&oldid=77813 * Ais523 * (-27) I don't think 05AB1E is pattern-based; what a command means depends on what byte it is, not on what bytes surround it 2020-12-03: 00:18:47 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 00:20:56 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:55:27 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:58:56 [[05AB1E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79104&oldid=79103 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) link 01:06:38 . o O ( Plan for today... do not play AME, let's see how well that goes. ) 01:10:19 -!- tromp has joined. 01:14:45 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:19:15 My bridge-building stalled off for some reason, even though I've still got 14/16 of the levels of the last world (out of 5) unfinished, plus almost all (16/16 of 3/5, and 13/16 of one more) of the challenge mode levels that are the same as the originals but with an extra twist. 01:20:07 I also have plenty of bridges left to build in the other franchise. 01:20:33 I heard my wife's brother's playing a medieval bridge-building game, is that part of your franchise? 01:20:59 This one? https://www.gog.com/game/bridge_constructor_medieval 01:21:18 That one I actually finished. It has a cute twist. 01:21:18 Probably. How many medieval bridge construction games could there be? 01:21:33 fizzie: I know of one. But there can easily be more... 01:21:57 there are three active franchises I think, though I forgot what the third one is. 01:23:07 (The twist I mean is that you get to build bridges that are designed to break. I think I've talked about this here, actually.) 01:24:10 Oh, I see. 01:24:59 (finished = played all the bridges, with challenges. there'll always be room for optimization.) 01:41:38 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:41:51 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 01:48:54 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined. 01:49:02 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23. 01:58:01 int-e: I haven't played it since we last talked about it. 01:58:15 So now you're way ahead. 01:58:43 I played 6 hours yesterday, it was too much. 01:59:20 (total time is approaching 8 hours, plus 1 hour for the first test run; I started over two days ago) 01:59:59 I can't tell whether you mean you started more than two days ago or restarted from scratch two days ago. 02:00:02 And don't ask me why... I don't really have a good reason. I guess I wanted to see how much I'd learned. 02:00:06 Aha. 02:00:26 I think I started three days ago. 02:01:02 Oh it's been longer actually, hmm. 02:01:12 Time is tricky 02:01:26 That's definitely over two days ago. 02:02:06 I guess I tried it out on the 29th, then gave it a rest on the 30th, then started from scratch the 1st, played 6 hours the 2nd, and now it's the 3rd. 02:02:26 So 4 days by that measure. 02:26:49 -!- tromp has joined. 02:31:40 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 02:43:51 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 02:46:37 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined. 02:46:44 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23. 03:32:48 -!- arseniiv has joined. 03:46:05 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:44:40 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 07:11:54 -!- tromp has joined. 07:14:40 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:06:20 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 08:10:18 -!- tromp has joined. 08:13:07 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:00:04 -!- wmww has quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days). 09:03:04 -!- delta23 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:03:41 -!- delta23 has joined. 09:11:47 -!- aaaaaa has joined. 09:15:54 -!- sprocklem has joined. 09:48:44 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 09:48:44 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 09:55:51 -!- LKoen has joined. 09:56:27 [[Expensive]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79105&oldid=79099 * Hakerh400 * (+38) /* Truth-machine */ 10:26:49 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 10:36:18 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 10:44:40 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:11:37 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:26:26 -!- tromp_ has joined. 11:26:28 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:46:16 -!- rain1 has joined. 12:22:13 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:25:26 Kind of a slow start. But at least we're back to the '#'s and the '.'s. 12:25:27 -!- j-bot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:25:40 -!- j-bot has joined. 12:25:55 Is there an #esoteric leaderboard for AoC? 12:26:34 Not that I know of. But I think the timed challenge thing kind of doesn't work cross timezones so much, anyway. 12:27:10 And/or with people who aren't going to commit to work on these in a timely manner. :) 12:28:34 Fair enough 12:29:04 I've been naturally waking up at 5AM anyway for a week or so for reasons I can't figure out, which is awful except for the fact it lets me get an early start on AoC 12:29:05 Full disclosure: I'm doing my Go "let's pretend to write this like I'm doing actual software development" thing again, with the "turn all examples into unit tests" stuff and so on, and that's not very optimized for time. 12:29:30 The only time I got points in 2019 was when I forgot to go to bed and it was suddenly 5am. 12:32:20 btw there is a secret intcode reference in today's 12:32:30 there was? 12:32:37 In some hovertext 12:32:57 the task is boring but there are secret references? 12:33:17 Oh, right, it had those hovertext things, completely forgot about them. 12:34:28 And then post-the-25th, they got highlighted or something. 12:34:43 is day 3 worth doing 12:35:06 Taneb seems to be taking this seriously. 12:35:15 if i don't do them will i stop seeing them eventually? 12:35:44 I'm taking completion % seriously, even if I'm not taking the leaderboards. :) 12:35:56 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79106&oldid=79092 * Mantita223 * (+12) /* Non-alphabetic */ 12:36:34 today I overtook 2200 people between part 1 and part 2 :-P 12:36:51 (based on https://adventofcode.com/2020/leaderboard/self ) 12:37:12 > 29342 {- part 1 rank -} - 27087 {- part 2 rank -} 12:37:14 2255 12:37:18 I'm not waking up before 06:00 just for aoc :p 12:37:27 > 32928 - 30496 12:37:29 2432 12:38:19 I was awake but I was trying to build somebody else's Haskell project which seemed more interesting. 12:38:54 I only got around to AoC 6 (minus 5 minutes) hours into their day. 12:40:59 I think I'm mostly surprised about the lack of difference between part 1s and part 2s so far. 12:41:03 As in, not surprised that the grey-to-gold ratio is smaller in https://adventofcode.com/2020/stats than in https://adventofcode.com/2019/stats 12:41:34 yeah I had a similar thought 12:43:13 [[Yo!nk]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79107 * Mantita223 * (+732) Created page with "==Yo!ink== Yo!ink is a esoteric programming language made by the user [[mantita223]] The language has very simple syntax, and with a bit of programming knowledge, anyone can u..." 12:45:31 maybe it'll get better 12:45:41 there's still hope 12:46:24 but it should really ramp up the difficulty soon or I'll stop checking for updates and do everything on the 25th :P 12:49:10 it probably will. they need a few easy problems as bait. 12:49:51 I'll have to look at this advent of code thing if it's so popular here 12:50:19 A few, so 4 wasn't enough? Also the real trick is to make part 1 easy and part 2 difficult. 12:50:39 Then ramp those up slowly. 12:52:27 Easy to say, of course. 12:53:00 I guess 2019 day 4 isn't really much different than what we've seen so far of 2020, so maybe this is just general 2020 negativity going on. 12:54:29 maybe 12:54:47 The alternating theme in 2019 was fun. 12:55:23 (even though later on the intcode only served as obfuscation for the puzzle input) 12:55:46 except for day 25! 13:02:13 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 13:13:36 -!- LKoen has joined. 13:46:49 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 13:50:15 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 13:52:48 [[Yo!nk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79108&oldid=79107 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+362) wikitext, cats, links, rm redundant header 14:02:29 starting to look at Advent of Code 2020 => I'm on an island and I have to collect star coins? what's this, a Mario game? 14:04:19 you're not even there yet 14:04:24 it's just a mundane job 14:04:28 earn money for code 14:04:49 it's small amounts of code so you get small amounts of money 14:04:55 maybe that's why the problems are so trivial 14:20:40 how many times or how fast can I retry these problems? because this problem looks like there are only a thousand different possible outputs, so I might just retry submitting random outputs instead of solving it properly 14:23:41 you're not supposed to do that 14:26:26 it's against the christmas spirit 14:28:42 b_jonas: I think there's a 1 minute timeout but I could be mixed up 14:34:43 Taneb: hmm. I've definitely taken more than a minute on the second half of this task, and I got the star. 14:34:50 but we'll see 14:35:42 Not that kind of a timeout, a timeout on how quickly you can repeatedly submit. 14:35:47 I seem to recall it was a minute, too. 14:35:54 ah thanks 14:36:27 Because the one time I was doing it live, I made a typo when copying the answer when submitting, and had to wait for that, and it was frustrating. 14:36:29 so the 1000 possibilities are just about possible to brute force 14:36:41 Yeah. FWIW, usually there's a lot more possible answers than that. 14:37:38 anyway, I got the two yellow star coins for day 1. on to day 2. I haven't seen any red star coins yet. 14:42:21 fizzie: https://adventofcode.com/2020/day/2 first task asks how many passwords are valid from a list of 1000 passwords. the answer must be between 0 and 1000 inclusive, that's 1001 possibilities. day 1 first task also has about 1000 possibilities if all prices in the input are non-negative integers. 14:42:28 -!- LKoen has joined. 14:44:02 Yeah, but that's from a sample size of N=2, I was talking more out from 2019 experiences. 14:44:27 brute forcing the answer seems more effort than computing it 14:44:27 sample size 3, because day 1 second task has more possibilities I think 14:44:32 in both these cases 14:44:38 int-e: in these cases, yes 14:46:04 Also I'd say the 2020 days 1-3 (hopefully) aren't terribly representative of AoC as a whole. From 2019, I think days 16, 18, 20 and 22 were among the interesting ones, along with the Intcode stuff in general. Days 16 and 22 both have a nice "part 1 can be very straightfoward, but won't generalize to part 2" thing going on. 14:46:30 let me solve this day 2 first task then 14:47:18 I don't think it's a spoiler to say that so far the part 2's have been pretty much the same as part 1's, which is a little unfortunate. 14:48:34 Incidentally, this year's day 3's part 1 is definitely brute-forceable too, with an even smaller solution space. Though again there's not really any reason to. 14:49:30 the intcode stuff was a real bummer for people who had planned to do each task in a different language for funs 14:49:31 so these get updated in the European morning? 14:50:29 ah, you mean people probably get points for just bruteforcing? 14:50:36 FireFly: why? intcode is easy enough to implement anew, or if you want to use an older implementation, you can learn how to bridge or combine languages 14:52:04 b_jonas: well I mean, it seemed to get a bit old to reimplement the same VM from what I could tell last year, I saw some noise on twitter wrt it 14:52:27 I didn't really do aoc last year, and in general I've never been good at following through :p 14:52:36 so we'll see how I fare this year 14:53:45 do we have info for how fast you have to be to get leaderboard points? 14:53:57 like when the 50th and 100th solutions arrived? 14:54:09 b_jonas: They get updated American east coast midnight, which translates into European quite-early morning. 14:55:28 b_jonas: Yes, you can see them in the per-day leaderboards. 14:55:35 https://adventofcode.com/2020/leaderboard/day/2 and so on. 14:55:44 ah thanks 14:57:39 looks like you have to be a few minutes after publication for these first days... though later days may be much harder of course 14:59:06 So, I was 4 minutes and 18 seconds too slow to get onto the leaderboards for part 2 this morning :( 15:00:10 don't try 15:04:13 -!- LKoen_ has joined. 15:07:08 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:08:55 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:25:52 int-e: Do, or do not? 15:30:17 `? try 15:30:20 There is no try. 15:48:13 -!- MDude has joined. 15:51:36 does this AoC site give some way to prove how many gold stars I have? it shows the count to me, but I have to be logged in for that 15:52:28 Hmm, it does to someone with whom you share a private leaderboard 15:52:47 ah, so do we have an #esoteric leaderboard? 15:52:56 `? aoc 15:52:58 Advent of Code (AoC) is a series of programming puzzles that some regulars enjoy, found at "https://adventofcode.com/2020/about". 15:53:44 We do not 16:00:03 should we have one? 16:00:35 I guess we can wait for more difficult tasks 16:00:45 I am in favour of having one 16:01:34 int-e, fizzie: ^ 16:12:18 I'm lukewarm, but would have a non-negligible chance of joining if one was created. I don't care about the points thing (and I think it might be kind of pointless for as small a group as this), but the gold star thing is different. 16:12:37 Taneb: You would be, because if you're consistently awake at puzzle publication time, you'll end up having a perfect score on it. 16:18:07 fizzie: that is a fair point but not the whole reason (I like being part of things) 16:20:03 Taneb: so would a private leaderboard tell how many gold stars we have? 16:20:11 and red stars if they exist? 16:20:29 or dragon coins if they call it that 16:21:27 Hang on, I'll get a screenshot of the #haskell leaderboard 16:21:50 https://i.imgur.com/AGbbaIT.png 16:22:18 Note that AIUI you can only have one private leaderboard. 16:22:22 There it shows that a lot of people have done the first three days (it would be a silver star if they had only done part day) 16:22:27 fizzie: you can be a member of many however 16:22:43 Oh, I didn't realize that's what it meant by "you can only have one". 16:22:57 I'm currently in five 16:23:19 But they're each associated with a user (#haskell is glguy for example) 16:23:38 That makes sense. I just misinterpreted the page. 16:37:36 Out of curiosity, with a private leaderboard, do you also get just a top 100, or just however many people are on it? 16:37:36 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:38:27 (Not that I imagine there'd be a difference for #esoteric.) 16:38:40 I think however many people are in it 16:38:55 Yeah 16:40:50 Taneb: thanks, that looks like it shows the gold and double gold stars for each task, ideal 16:42:55 And one more thing, are these private leaderboards per-year, or global across the events? 16:43:03 The latter 16:43:10 But you only view one year at a time 17:17:44 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 17:33:13 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Starwort * New user account 17:36:10 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79109&oldid=79039 * Starwort * (+167) /* Introductions */ 17:38:01 [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79110&oldid=74826 * Starwort * (+123) Add my Intcode interpreter to the list of interpreters 17:48:06 Heh, looks like the channel isn't the only one getting into AoC mood. 18:04:12 -!- arseniiv has joined. 18:25:47 -!- LKoen_ has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 18:30:28 fizzie: yes, freenode has programmers elsewhere too 18:37:22 fungot, you speak British, right? what does "a niggle" mean? 18:37:22 b_jonas: oh, well,' said susan. ' that's croaking territory over there. 18:47:38 -!- borrowed has joined. 18:55:51 -!- aaaaaa has joined. 19:17:04 [[NoComment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79111&oldid=78722 * CaptainFoxtrot * (+223) Clarification: Jumps outside of the code space are considered errors 19:22:28 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 19:22:28 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 19:22:28 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 19:54:44 -!- rain1 has joined. 20:24:15 -!- sprocklem has joined. 21:03:04 [[Intcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79112&oldid=79110 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+39) /* Program Structure */ link 21:04:16 [[Intcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79113&oldid=79112 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-18) /* Proposed Assembly Syntax */ wikipedia link 21:51:50 [[Decision shrub]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79114&oldid=78608 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* Example of a decision shrub */ I meant FIX before 21:53:23 [[Befreak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79115&oldid=79058 * CatIsFluffy * (-8) smaller program based on the example on the page 21:56:51 [[Javagony Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79116&oldid=74959 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+89) /* The proof */ link to bf 22:08:47 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 22:11:01 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:11:48 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 22:45:43 -!- imode has joined. 23:08:46 Firefox loads EPUB files fine, but in order to load them, you have to add "jar:" at the beginning of the URL (before "file:") and add "!/" at the end of the URL, and then it will work. 23:27:56 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 2020-12-04: 00:50:11 `? hth 00:50:17 hth ([ʰtʰh̩]) is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous. 00:54:49 `? hackeso 00:54:50 HackEso is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike HackEgo. 00:54:55 `? hackego 00:54:56 HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in all Mexico! 00:55:47 Regarding an AoC #esoteric leaderboard... I try hard not to be competetive about this. So I'm rather disinclined. 00:57:48 Not that that should stop anybody. But it won't be large enough for lurking anonymously (in contrast to the #haskell one which I did actually join) 01:08:01 [[Befreak]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79117&oldid=79115 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) link 01:13:03 (I don't know how common it is to load EPUB files in Firefox in this way.) 01:18:45 -!- bcasiello has joined. 01:43:54 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 01:44:18 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:45:44 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 02:39:46 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:50:37 -!- sebbu has joined. 03:31:25 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined. 03:35:25 [[Flipfractal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79118 * Delta23 * (+719) Created page with "Flipfractal is an experimental variant of [[Memfractal]], which was created by [[User:Zzo38]]. It takes ideas from [[BackFlip]] and the Memfractal specifications by User:Cam..." 03:36:27 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79119&oldid=79106 * Delta23 * (+18) add flipfractal 03:39:52 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23. 03:45:08 [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79120&oldid=79118 * Delta23 * (+88) Add truth machine example 03:52:41 [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79121&oldid=79120 * Delta23 * (+172) Minor details 04:32:12 -!- Arcorann has joined. 04:44:49 [[Expensive]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79122&oldid=79105 * Hakerh400 * (+84) /* Hello, world! */ 04:45:39 What camera settings should be used to take pictures of Christmas lights? 04:47:57 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79123&oldid=79090 * Hakerh400 * (+66) +[[Expensive]] 04:50:36 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79124&oldid=79123 * Hakerh400 * (+48) +[[Flipfractal]] 06:14:35 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 06:26:10 -!- MDude has joined. 06:30:41 -!- MDude has quit (Client Quit). 06:39:28 okay I can't complain that the second AoC part wasn't harder today 06:39:41 the new complaint is that it's so mundane 07:22:36 I can run Hero Mesh on DOSBOX, but it is slow. 07:23:36 (I would like to have more testers for Free Hero Mesh) 07:24:29 zzo38: Do you like A Monster's Expedition? 07:25:18 I don't know. 07:25:51 (I don't know what it is, either, and I did not find it on Wikipedia, either) 07:32:19 Oh, it's a puzzle computer game. 07:33:53 OK 07:39:08 `? this 07:39:10 This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though. Nobody likes this. 07:39:32 i,i `learn This month, this is A Monster's Expedition. Do you like this? 07:53:21 In Hero Mesh (and also in Free Hero Mesh once it is completed), you can rewind as much as you want, and you can also edit the move list to insert or delete moves. So far, I think most FOSS puzzle games don't do this. 07:53:59 xsok did it ages ago :P 07:54:17 (though "editing" is maybe a bit of a stretch) 07:54:30 Yes, maybe some do, but it would seem that most don't (although most proprietary puzzle games also don't) 07:54:40 (but the binary save file format isn't hard to read and write) 07:56:58 Sokoban is strictly turn based and deterministic, like Hero Mesh is, though. 07:57:35 AME is also strictly turn based 07:58:09 And borrows the basic push-only Sokoban mechanic... and then goes surprisingly wild with it. 07:58:35 Yes, and some other games too 08:00:44 I found the documentation for xsok now. 08:03:00 xsok was an addiction for me... I've patched it (adding more level sets, fixing a couple of bugs, modifying the pixmaps, most notably to make boxes translucent so that you can distinguish whether they're on a target or not)... 08:06:25 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 08:06:25 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 08:09:30 and I've spent 100s of hours optimizing solutions by hand 08:12:45 -!- LKoen has joined. 08:14:36 There are some of the features like Hero Mesh in xsok, although xsok isn't as versatile (although it does allow customizing the scoring definition). That includes the attributes Strength (called Power in xsok) and Weight, and a few other things. 08:15:31 Maybe it also might be possible later converting xsok levels into Free Hero Mesh, too. 08:17:16 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:22:21 Automatically testing it also it seem to be possible (also for conversions from Hero Mesh to Free Hero Mesh, too); if you have a recording of the moves of the solution, it can check that it is a valid solution. 08:23:00 translucent boxes in action: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/xbox.png 08:23:33 (the actor is so ugly...) 08:24:35 Yes, that is good that the boxes is translucent now. 08:25:30 these are my own private changes though :P 08:25:53 Yes, the actor isn't so good, and I don't like the floor graphics so much either 08:26:44 though I suppose replacing an installed xpm file is a no-brainer 08:28:46 so if you care: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/objects.xpm.gz 08:28:49 Most programs that deal with XPM do not support all of its features (although my own implementation implements more than most do, still it doesn't implement the Lisp format) 08:30:27 Oh right, xsok had a box you can step into... a bit like a fully turned over table in Hiding Place 08:30:44 (including the possibility to push it around with another box) 08:35:50 Unlike xsok (and maybe some others), Free Hero Mesh is using that the definitions for classes of objects can contain program codes to be executed, when it receives a message. 08:38:03 (Some of the ideas in xsok are things I had thought of too independently to implement in Free Hero Mesh, such as the bookmark. I had also thought of custom scoring, but I am not sure if I will implement that.) 09:46:16 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 10:02:30 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sertdfyguhi * New user account 10:10:18 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 10:17:15 -!- borrowed has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:47:21 [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79125&oldid=79074 * Aspwil * (+159) /* Instructions */ 10:47:35 [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79126&oldid=79125 * Aspwil * (+3) /* Instructions */ 11:06:44 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 11:11:51 -!- rain1 has joined. 11:12:46 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined. 11:13:13 -!- delta23 has quit (Disconnected by services). 11:13:17 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23. 11:26:00 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:32:11 ooof day 4 would be a hassle in C 11:41:18 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 11:42:59 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 11:43:22 I wonder how many people are doing AoC in esolangs this year 11:55:50 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 12:04:36 I'm aware of someone doing it in Nix and someone doing it in APL but neither of them are quite esolangs 12:07:26 Taneb: Haneb 12:07:45 Invent anything lately? 12:08:59 I think there's a couple people on the TI channels that are attempting it in TI-Basic 12:11:33 Is that the language used on the TI-83? 12:11:41 I think I wrote some programs in that to draw semifancy pictures. 12:13:33 I saw someone put up a BBC Basic editor online --> https://bbcmic.ro/ 12:15:02 yeah, basically. as TI has moved to color it's changed a bit but not really that much 12:15:25 shachaf: I might have invented enriched categories this morning 12:15:26 for most of the AoC stuff it's not that different I think? 12:15:52 Taneb: Niceo McMiceo, enriched over what? 12:16:42 I started with the (R, +, <=) as an ordered monoid as a monoidal poset and worked up from there 12:16:55 (I was thinking about metric spaces) 12:19:05 (and in particular, why they use the real numbers) 12:21:22 I think I wrote something semifancy in the TI-86 dialect of TI-Basic too. 12:21:58 And our maths teacher was incredibly enthusiastic about it. He had one of those slide projector attachments for his TI-85-or-86. 12:22:58 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/T-I-ViewScreen-85-Graphing-Calculator-Projector/181006275400 12:23:01 That kind of thing. 12:24:22 Also don't buy that one, there's a much cheaper listing for one as well. But maybe you're not in the market for it anyway. 12:28:34 [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79127&oldid=79121 * Delta23 * (+168) add smaller Truth Machine variant with differing design 12:32:25 What happened was: My classmate showed me a program he'd written on his calculator that drew fractals or something, and I was impressed, and made my own version of the idea with some tweaks. 12:32:43 Later it turned out that the program, line for line, was in the calculator manual, which I'd never seen. 12:33:50 Taneb: Did you figure out why metric spaces use el número real? 12:34:42 shachaf: not yet, but I think it's something to do with analysis 12:34:51 Ah, that seems likely. 12:35:41 Taneb: Maybe you saw https://www.facebook.com/slbkbs/posts/1540808232616365 from a while ago. 12:35:48 Which that website is really not the best place for. 12:36:13 The reals are p. fundamental in all sorts of ways I didn't (and probably still don't) appreciate properly. 12:38:20 -!- LKoen has joined. 12:39:30 I remember in high school optimising the Factor12 and that probability-related program that got passed around the class 12:49:22 fizzie I've already got a viewscreen 86 :) 12:49:45 been a while since I've done any 85/86 programming, I should get back into it but you know how projects go 12:51:35 (I really should get an overhead projector so I can display them properly) 12:51:48 s/them/my viewscreens) 13:10:58 [[Flipfractal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79128&oldid=79127 * Delta23 * (+273) Add computational class ideas (tree stack automata?) 13:13:10 [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79129&oldid=79128 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) kl 13:15:45 [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79130&oldid=79129 * Delta23 * (+330) add more information 13:19:12 [[State and Main]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79131&oldid=74324 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* Truth-machine */ add notice 13:21:25 [[Livefish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79132&oldid=74002 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+46) cats 13:25:10 [[Flipfractal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79133&oldid=79130 * Delta23 * (+253) Change it to Torus program space and add multithreaded variant 13:25:55 [[Gregorovich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79134&oldid=67742 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) /* Implementation */ c 13:30:25 [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79135&oldid=79133 * Delta23 * (+85) add blackhole instruction 13:38:03 [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79136&oldid=79135 * Delta23 * (+244) blackhole is optional + reasoning 13:39:49 [[Gregorovich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79137&oldid=79134 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+198) Add a [[truth-machine]] 13:41:21 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79138&oldid=79124 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+112) /* Grawlix */ [[Gregorovich]] 13:43:46 [[Grawlix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79139&oldid=71278 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) /* Examples */ hm 13:53:02 [[Lamfunc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79140&oldid=72672 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+83) /* Builtins */ clarify 13:54:09 [[Uack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79141&oldid=71604 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Examples */ cat 14:05:11 shachaf: Taneb: I thought any ordered field (and adding ±∞ for ∞-metric spaces) would do, and reals are just one very useful celebrity. But if I’m not mistaken, you can use “ℚ-metric spaces” to define ℝ itself as a legit (ℚ-)metric completion (of ℚ). Then as ℚ is minimal, you can’t get any simpler, but you also probably don’t want things like ℚ[√5, √71]. There *could* be sense to use algebraic numbers, though (in computa 14:05:11 tional stuff?). There also may be reason to use something finer than ℝ but that will be non-Archimedean, as you know, and maybe that bars many possile applications, compared with ℝ, algebraics or ℚ 14:06:21 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 14:07:20 also please tell if I shouldn’t use ℝ and ℚ characters if they display poorly (they do for me) 14:07:36 (I think not many fonts have them) 14:10:05 but I think I doesn’t know much more about why there is ℝ. Hopefully these reasons (barring historical ones) are convincing enough. They convince me maybe 4/5 through 14:10:33 but I think I doesn’t know => wow how did I write that 14:14:08 what's this about? 14:17:24 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 14:24:21 `olist 1221 14:24:22 olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1221.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 14:25:34 zzo38: are the Christmas lights steady or flashing? 14:33:02 rain1: (I was thinking about metric spaces) (and in particular, why they use the real numbers) Taneb: Did you figure out why metric spaces use el número real? shachaf: not yet, but I think it's something to do with analysis 14:33:35 hm I should have linked to logs but I’m lazy :D 14:34:28 -!- FreeFull has joined. 14:40:36 hmm 14:41:02 it's a good question 14:41:26 I think it is because the real numbers are a unique ordered field with limits 14:48:18 rain1: non-archimedean ordered fields necessary have non-unique limits? 14:48:42 arseniiv: the definition of metric space seems to only require an ordered monoid, none of the laws refer to multiplication, division, or even subtraction 14:52:26 Taneb: yeah, though surely there will be some reason why just monoid is too weak for many occasions. Though right now I don’t have an argument even why it would be good for it to be a semiring 14:54:17 I'm not even convinced the ordering needs to be total 14:55:28 I know some puzzle games that at least let you undo steps for free: Baba is you, and tom7's Escape 14:56:18 int-e: "make boxes translucent so that you can distinguish whether they're on a target or not" => some sokoban games use a custom tile for a box on a target 14:57:56 arseniiv: possibly for any ordered monoid M, an M-metric space is equivalent to some R-metric space? 14:58:53 b_jonas: Snakebird too 14:59:29 "enriched categories" => with savory spices? 14:59:36 Taneb: if that monoid comes to be hyperreals, it should be impossible but I’m not totally sure 15:00:36 arseniiv: that seems correct 15:02:08 "The reals are p. fundamental in all sorts of ways I didn't (and probably still don't) appreciate properly." => yep. long ago I asked why homotopy was defined in a way that depended on the real numbers. I got partial answers. 15:04:42 Taneb: then we may try to characterise which ordered monoids sit inside reals and which don’t, maybe it can still be expressed in a useful way 15:05:20 or maybe we should take extended reals R ∪ {±∞} already 15:06:15 they are necessary to make (undirected) graphs into so-called ∞-metric spaces. I’d rather define usual metric spaces as these from the start, though 15:07:07 as infinite distance is frequently necessary in practical applications (it seems for me) 15:07:46 well at least [weighted] graphs would take a big chunk by themselves 15:10:53 -!- bcasiello_ has joined. 15:11:25 I'm not even convinced the ordering needs to be total => BTW several months ago I tried to formalize cyclical and total orders as two kinds of the general thing, though that ended up too useless 15:13:24 it was based on that you can inject some total order as a kind of a segment/interval in that space. The definition tried to capture all the intervals in that space 15:13:36 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:13:39 maybe the idea would be interesting to somebody 15:14:01 -!- bcasiello has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:16:35 actually, not just intervals but “paths which don’t skip elements”, as you can walk circles on, well, a circle 15:18:06 -!- user24 has joined. 15:20:13 ...what do you mean by cyclical order? 15:22:45 Taneb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_order 15:22:54 (also there is a partial one too) 15:22:59 Ah, I'd not encountered that before 15:25:16 Z/nZ are ubiquitous examples of this but I hadn’t seen the general notion until recently too 15:26:23 Z/nZ-the-rings 16:14:02 shachaf: 385 and still no end. also I'm now on an island with no clue what to do. 16:18:45 (well I do have an objective in mind... it wouldn't be the first time that that objective is wrong. open world effect...) 16:22:34 -!- MDude has joined. 17:06:53 eye color and *hair color* are required fields? and name and issuer and passport types aren't? funny 17:06:57 also height 17:19:09 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Joman522 * New user account 17:25:34 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79142&oldid=79109 * Joman522 * (+207) /* Introductions */ 17:27:09 hmm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaning_Tower_of_Pisa says that the Leaning Tower of Pisa was declared "stabled for at least another 300 years" in 2001-12, and later declared "stable for at least 200 years" in 2008-05. a naive linear interpolation suggests that we should visit the tower soon, because it will be declared potentially unsafe during next year. 17:41:06 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 18:27:01 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:41:46 [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79143&oldid=79136 * Delta23 * (+68) add tree stack access program example 18:45:24 [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79144&oldid=79143 * Delta23 * (+28) make important note of behavior, could be used for TC proof 18:52:28 [[IsThatAMotherFrickingSpecificAnimeReferenceLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79145 * SoicBR * (+6780) Created page with "Creating IsThatAMotherFrickingSpecificAnimeReferenceLang (can be shortened to ITAMFSARL) is an esoteric programming language created december 12, 2020 by [[User:SoicBR]] which..." 18:56:39 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 18:59:22 BTW en.wikipedia states: “If the distance function takes values in some (suitable) ordered set (and the triangle inequality is adjusted accordingly), then we arrive at the notion of generalized ultrametric.” 19:00:46 [[IsThatAMotherFrickingSpecificAnimeReferenceLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79146&oldid=79145 * SoicBR * (+98) 19:06:53 [[Flipfractal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79147&oldid=79144 * Delta23 * (+385) Add abstract machine within flipfractal 19:11:31 [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79148&oldid=79147 * Delta23 * (+122) note 19:23:58 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:06:43 -!- rain1 has joined. 20:09:41 b_jonas: Some Christmas lights are flashy and some aren't, including the ones together 20:12:19 so they are flashy. that's more difficult because it's hard to show the flashing pattern on a static photo. but christmas lights can be hard in first place because they're dark and so visible only when the rest of the scene is dark 20:13:58 but I don't think they have any really special tricks besides the usual low light photos. use a tripod if you can't hold the camera steady enough, hold the camera steady with two hands under and stick to 0.5 seconds exposure if you don't have a tripod 20:14:49 if you do have a tripod, you might try to take two pictures, one for the lights and one for the background, and compose them later. 20:15:23 They are incandescent lights 20:17:18 The lights appear too bright compared with the rest of the picture 20:21:48 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:55:07 -!- NeverBorn has joined. 20:56:06 -!- aaaaaa has joined. 21:00:55 int-e: I like this mundane data validation. it's the sort of thing that I do at work every day. it's rewarding. I keep finding problems in things that are in production and that other people have supposedly "tested" and signed off as working. sometimes it never worked, more often it's about new features that got added after those supposed "tests", but added in a half-assed way that doesn't really make 21:01:01 them work. 21:01:47 except of course I don't get this nice specification about what counts as valid, that's the part that I have to write. coding it is the easy part. 21:02:08 and usuall there are much more complicated relations that have to be held, involving joins, instead of just single field values. 21:02:17 but still, it's just about this mundane 21:02:19 -!- bcasiello_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:02:53 -!- bcasiello has joined. 21:21:26 -!- NeverBorn has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:25:25 [[Ackermann function]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79149&oldid=57452 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-50) wikipedia link 21:29:41 [[Factorial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79150&oldid=62923 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+76) definition, stub, cat 21:35:51 [[ASCII art/mandelbrot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79151&oldid=67600 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-27) This isn't very well a program form 21:38:39 -!- imode has joined. 21:38:51 [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79152&oldid=71479 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Spreading */ 21:39:31 [[Ruby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79153&oldid=73008 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) hm... 21:42:21 [[KEMURI]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79154&oldid=70216 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) /* Computational class */ example + links 21:44:19 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 21:48:35 [[KEMURI]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79155&oldid=79154 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* External resources */ cat, waybacks 21:50:10 [[Transfinite program]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79156&oldid=66884 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) /* Unbounded programs */ I hardly see how this is a stub 21:56:07 [[Binary lambda calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79157&oldid=70655 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+80) code, link 21:59:15 [[Quadratic sync problem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79158&oldid=62891 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) /* Computational class */ cat 22:00:02 [[Got a match?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79159&oldid=68215 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* Examples */ cat (please correct if wrong) 22:00:25 [[Efghij]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79160&oldid=75841 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+16) cat link 22:03:19 [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79161&oldid=79148 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+61) clean up a bit 22:04:18 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Quit: leaving). 22:25:24 [[Spice]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79162 * Slord * (+2396) Created page with "== Summary == A programming language for 'Golfing' in an assembly-like/lite environment. - Spice is an interpreted assembly-like language with a handful of operators: ADD, `S..." 22:26:26 -!- sprocklem has joined. 22:41:10 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79163&oldid=79119 * Slord * (+12) 23:13:47 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:18:46 -!- bcasiello has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:19:20 -!- tromp has joined. 23:29:45 -!- Arcorann has joined. 2020-12-05: 00:28:41 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 00:31:44 -!- sprocklem has joined. 00:33:43 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79164&oldid=79142 * Sertdfyguhi * (+138) 00:33:54 [[Plts]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79165 * Sertdfyguhi * (+912) Created page with "

plts(programming language that sucks) is a stack-based programming language invented in 2020 by me.

Commands

  • ?[letter]: push letter to..." 00:35:53 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79166&oldid=79163 * Sertdfyguhi * (+11) 00:46:35 [[Plts]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79167&oldid=79165 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+43) wikitext, cats 01:38:32 [[A0A0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79168&oldid=56988 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-12) /* Implementations */ eso policy 01:42:00 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 01:44:44 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:59:14 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 03:00:55 -!- FreeFull has quit. 03:07:20 [[User:Expliked]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79169&oldid=78694 * Expliked * (-13) 03:13:21 -!- Discordian[m] has quit (*.net *.split). 03:13:22 -!- sparr has quit (*.net *.split). 03:14:16 -!- sparr has joined. 03:15:46 -!- sparr has quit (Client Quit). 03:16:14 -!- sparr has joined. 03:18:42 -!- Discordian[m] has joined. 03:20:58 -!- sparr has quit (Changing host). 03:20:58 -!- sparr has joined. 04:02:21 [[Flipfractal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79170&oldid=79161 * Delta23 * (-7) fix typo 04:03:11 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined. 04:03:11 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23. 04:19:22 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:30:51 -!- sebbu has quit (Quit: cycling). 04:31:05 -!- sebbu has joined. 04:31:17 -!- arseniiv has joined. 04:32:00 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 04:32:00 -!- sebbu has joined. 04:43:59 -!- sebbu has quit (Quit: cycling). 04:44:14 -!- sebbu has joined. 04:45:19 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 04:45:19 -!- sebbu has joined. 05:09:52 [[Ewpl]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79171 * Sertdfyguhi * (+1013) Created page with "{{Lowercase}} '''ewpl'''(even worse programming language) is a programming language invented by me in 2020. ==Language Overview== This language uses a single cell to store as..." 05:10:08 [[Plts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79172&oldid=79167 * Sertdfyguhi * (+1) 05:11:34 [[Ewpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79173&oldid=79171 * Sertdfyguhi * (+109) 05:12:24 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79174&oldid=79166 * Sertdfyguhi * (+11) 05:16:57 . o O ( getting worse. no code for today. ) 05:17:33 [[User:Sertdfyguhi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79175 * Sertdfyguhi * (+233) Created page with "{{Lowercase}} I'm a programmer with more than half a year of experience. My most favourite languages are JavaScript and Python. ==esolangs I made== [[plts]]
    [[ewpl]] ==..." 05:22:25 shachaf: Never mind about being stuck, I just missed a corner case. I've reached the end now, though obviously there are some lose ends yet to discover... 05:22:58 Hopefully you reached the win end rather than a lose end. 05:23:03 Currently 450 islands, 3 friends... missing at least 2 more friends (I've seen them, but not managed to get there) 05:23:09 there's a lose end? 05:23:16 That's what you said. 05:23:24 loose, oops 05:23:27 thanks 05:24:16 (actually the final island is all one land mass but counts as several islands) 05:25:50 I didn't mean to do an obnoxious correction. I was instead trying to make an obnoxious opportunistic pun. 05:26:01 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 05:27:21 it's okay, I just hadn't noticed my typo 05:55:09 oh... winning removes the global clouds, leaving only the ones over islands you have not yet visited 05:55:22 that seems useful for eventual completion 05:55:42 and I made another friend 05:57:44 What else is interesting... I've reached the 13 hours mark. 06:02:27 That's a lot more than my hours. 06:02:40 I should catch up in islands or at least in hours. 07:50:02 -!- rain1 has joined. 08:16:17 -!- earend1 has joined. 08:21:40 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 08:41:24 day 5 is much simpler than day 4, but perhaps only because I'm familiar with this sort of problem 08:50:54 so I'm on another channel where people are doing AoC, #cemetech on efnet 08:51:35 hi Hooloovo0 08:51:52 they also have a "write something in a bunch of languages" challenge... which seems like exactly the kind of thing yall would be interested in 08:51:56 what's up? 08:56:45 b_jonas: it's worse, the input generator sucks 08:58:02 (as mentioned earlier I didn't write any special code) 08:58:09 int-e: the input generator for what? 08:58:20 for AoC today 08:58:51 int-e: how so? doesn't it just generate an interval less one and shuffle it? 08:59:24 b_jonas: try sort < input | sed s=.........== and see if you can see a pattern 09:00:03 no, it has plenty of gaps 09:00:24 hmm 09:00:27 hmm 09:00:29 you're right 09:01:07 int-e: what pattern? if you sort it you'll get them all in order, so they have to be consecutive numbers in binary. 09:01:27 it has to be LRLRLRL... with one stumble in it 09:01:47 but it's probably shuffled 09:02:05 as for the gaps, the spec asks you to give the gap as a solution, and the one I got has exactly one gap, I verified that when solving 09:02:16 no free seats on this airplane 09:02:38 I didn't think the plane would be fully occupied 09:03:20 okay now I'm even more disappointed 09:03:28 int-e: the spec says "It's a completely full flight, so your seat should be the only missing boarding pass in your list." 09:04:11 how do you even get on the plane without a boarding pass 09:04:54 anyway, you're right, it's boring by specification, not by accident 09:05:32 And I solved it by hand. 09:05:52 (and sort and dc for conversion from binary) 09:06:57 int-e: the story may have happened before 2001 09:07:38 int-e: but even now, everyone knows how imperfect the security is in airports 09:07:45 you can find stories about it on the internet 09:08:06 Yeah it's largely security theater 09:08:47 or commercial interest (the liquid restrictions make food vendors in the transit zone quite happy I'm sure) 09:09:30 int-e: but to be precise, I think the protagonist lost their boarding pass in the long queuing corridor between the electronic boarding pass check and the airplane. an attendent at the airplane entrance looks at some of the boarding passes, but mostly to direct you to the right seat if you want, and at that point I think they let on anyone without a boarding pass 09:09:47 true 09:10:24 or this is still in one of the foreign lands that Mario visits, with star coins and red star/dragon coins, and it works quite different from our world 09:10:49 ok give me a second, Irregular is about to update 09:10:59 I want to catch it in the first second 09:11:14 yup, late by a few seconds as usual so I had to keep refreshing 09:12:07 well, not really late, but a few seconds after the nominal update time which is given to a minute precision only 09:14:17 and actually not even that anymore, because the FAQ no longer mentions the update time, only the forum and a news entry about moving it one hour earlier does 09:14:59 that change really felt strange at first by the way, changing the reliable schedule that has been there for a decade and only broken a few times by accident and once deliberately during that 09:17:20 Irregular is like 17 years old, it's crazy 09:17:49 well, a bit less since it had years of hiatus 09:17:51 but sttill 09:18:17 the time of day when it and the other comics were published was unchanged for a very long time, even through the hiatus 09:24:38 -!- tromp_ has joined. 09:24:38 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:59:56 -!- TheLie has joined. 10:03:57 -!- LKoen has joined. 10:09:41 `grwp gray 10:09:44 No output. 10:09:45 `grwp grey 10:09:46 gray:Gray is e common misspalling of grey. 10:10:20 How about "græy" 10:23:56 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:27:08 `? græy 10:27:10 græy? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 10:36:00 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 10:38:12 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:39:03 [[Finite State Brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79176 * Delta23 * (+697) finite state brainfuck idea 10:40:52 [[Finite State Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79177&oldid=79176 * Delta23 * (+154) idea for infinite looping, would it change something? 10:42:05 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79178&oldid=79174 * Delta23 * (+29) add finite state brainfuck to lang list 10:43:29 -!- delta23 has joined. 10:52:00 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 11:04:56 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:27:18 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:32:36 fungot, are you friends with any of the Ancient ones? 11:32:36 b_jonas: the man spat on the ground and, after they've done it, though, complaining like badly oiled pumps and smelling like a thousand damp carpets. men in djeliba moved among them and occasionally hit them with the other scrap. keep ‘em separate. keep a pot special for it, and all you needed to boil an egg," said 11:45:13 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:56:28 -!- dingwat_ has joined. 11:57:24 -!- dingwat has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 11:57:25 -!- dingwat_ has changed nick to dingwat. 11:57:31 -!- izabera has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 11:58:34 -!- izabera has joined. 12:31:06 b_jonas: Yeah, so about that "usually the solution space is larger" comment, I was basing that on 2019, when it was true even for early days. This year is shaping to be somewhat different. 12:31:13 Also wrote my day 5 expecting there to be something about rows and columns separately in part 2, but there wasn't. Now I'm wondering whether to streamline that from `pass -> (row, col) -> ID` to `pass -> ID`. But I've got unit tests for the steps separately already. 12:32:44 there is 12:33:08 convert F and L to 0 and B and R to 1, parse as binary 12:37:32 fizzie: heh, yeah, this one was so easy I didn't even consider brute forcing the solution space without looking at the boarding slips, but I guess it would have been thematically appropriate, just trying to sit in every seat and see if I'm kicked out 12:38:55 the first part was so quick that I didn't have time to wonder what the second part would have, plus the first part already basically gave away that you're looking at the boarding passes to find your seat that's missing from them, so it wasn't much of a surprise 12:39:37 but admittedly I didn't know before that that it would be a single interval, with like all eight seats existing in all rows (except first and last), unlike on a real airplane 12:39:46 this is like a one-dimensional airplane 12:41:18 or a 21st century one: a discount airline with no first class section with fewer seats per row, because that's not their business model, if someone has money for first class they will buy it from an airline whose service is not so bad as theirs 12:41:20 i don't think it's more one-dimensional than a real airplane 12:45:13 I still don't understand part of their business model: there are people who pay for the supposed privilage of boarding the airplane earlier. why? isn't that a hindrance? even the worst waiting room is more comfortable than an airplane, so I always try to get on the plane as late as possible, to spend the least time on it. 12:46:52 at least that was the situation before 2020; I haven't exprienced airplane flight since then 12:49:15 even selling the supposed privilage of choosing your seat seems weird to me. that one at least isn't a clear drawback, but I'm not paying for that, and typically get the good seats: the ones that are close to the aisle so I can get up easily, and not in the extra legroom rows, which means I can keep some of my luggage close, under the seat in front of me. this doesn't always work, I have been seated at 12:49:21 the extra legroom emergency exit row once, but usually it does. 12:49:40 but admittedly some people have very long legs, and for them the extra legroom rows may be an advantage 12:51:19 i am working in a software company for the aviation industry and never sat in a plane :D 12:51:58 I'm not sure how "there is" was an answer to what I said. 12:53:08 I think I took an intra-US flight on a plane that was kind of like that, except with 6 columns rather than 8. 12:53:31 Although it couldn't have been that one, because they had no seat reservations either. 12:54:55 (You get a boarding number based on how early you checked in and whether you paid extra to get a lower number, and then they just sort you in a queue based on that number and board in that order, and seats are first-come-first-served.) 12:55:53 myname: and I'm working in a software company for the chemical industry, but never used the things that those chemical plants produce. 12:56:32 fizzie: yes, American flights work somewhat differently from European ones 12:56:38 in multiple ways 12:58:12 myname: and I sat on airplanes too many times 12:58:27 and probably will, because these days it's too cheap 12:58:50 go so so, you may as well secure my job :S 12:58:52 :D 12:59:37 well, probably not during the pandemic 12:59:59 but my mother will arrive home soon (next weekend), on airplane 13:18:13 [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79179&oldid=71468 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Resources */ deadlink 13:35:06 Actually this airplane is really big - I can't think of any commercial plane that seats over 900 people 13:37:11 [[Ewpl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79180&oldid=79173 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) /* Hello, world! program */ implemented 13:37:40 [[Ewpl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79181&oldid=79180 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* Hello, world! program */ total 13:40:44 Arcorann: true 13:40:59 that part is a bit futuristic 13:41:42 although I prefer a future where that won't be necessary because the vacuum train network that Elon Musk builds takes the bulk of the passenger traffic 13:43:01 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79182&oldid=79013 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-22633) rm some things 13:44:05 Wikipedia says you can in theory stick 853 passengers on an A380, which is pretty close. 13:44:48 "Other proposed variants included an A380-900 stretch – seating -- up to 960 passengers in an all-economy configuration --" 13:45:20 [[Finite State Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79183&oldid=79177 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+119) Headers, links, cats 13:54:56 [[Niblet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79184&oldid=68876 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+41) /* Hello World */ cat 13:55:05 -!- TheLie has joined. 13:57:11 [[Procedure]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79185&oldid=74613 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) m 14:01:24 -!- LKoen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:02:55 -!- LKoen has joined. 14:13:15 [[Insanity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79186&oldid=73314 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+36) /* Program structure */ at least partially sane 14:36:44 -!- j`ey has joined. 15:03:33 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:09:13 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:12:08 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:14:28 [[Talk:Insanity]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79187 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+227) /* Order of operations? */ new section 15:19:51 fungot, what does the "S" in "SQL" stand for? suffering? or several, for how many different dialects there are? 15:19:51 b_jonas: in the sudden silence. ' i really must be off, then. maybe you could... help us?" 15:20:51 "sudden silence"? ok. 15:33:17 [[Finite State Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79188&oldid=79183 * Delta23 * (+41) confirmed finite with inputs 15:39:16 -!- j`ey has left. 15:40:46 -!- MDude has joined. 15:49:24 b_jonas: It's not actually an "S", it's the Kryptonian symbol of hope, which just coincidentally happens to resemble the letter S of the Latin alphabet, and is therefore usually rendered using that for technical reasons. 15:52:43 fizzie: I see 15:53:34 so it's "ЅQL"? 15:55:25 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79189&oldid=78998 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+262) /* Other things */ [[Bfos]], [[Decision shrub]], [[Insanity]], [[Voxvy]], [[Javagony Turing-completeness proof]] 16:00:07 `unidecode Ѕ 16:00:10 ​[U+0405 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER DZE] 16:00:21 I'm not an expert, maybe that's closer. 16:33:57 [[Insanity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79190&oldid=79186 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) /* Fibonacci sequence */ cats (Interpreter coming soon if User:A responds) 16:37:38 [[DINAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79191&oldid=75640 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) /* Variables */ of 16:42:05 [[Chafa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79192&oldid=66154 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+165) cats/notice/stub 16:45:08 [[User talk:Yasser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79193&oldid=20830 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+128) see.also 16:45:23 [[User talk:Yasser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79194&oldid=79193 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-128) Undo revision 79193 by [[Special:Contributions/PythonshellDebugwindow|PythonshellDebugwindow]] ([[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow|talk]])m 16:49:19 [[ClearBF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79195&oldid=27131 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+220) /* External resources */ waybacks 16:50:14 [[ClearBF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79196&oldid=79195 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* External resources */ seeAlso() 16:51:40 [[Tbf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79197&oldid=71006 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+95) headers, cat 16:56:12 [[Multiply]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79198&oldid=75214 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Implementation */ catfix 17:13:17 -!- bcasiello has joined. 17:36:54 -!- arseniiv has joined. 17:42:18 int-e: b_jonas: . o O ( Græy is an uncommon spelling of both. ) 17:42:32 `? both 17:42:34 both? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:06:51 -!- tromp_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:07:23 -!- tromp has joined. 18:15:14 -!- delta23 has joined. 18:26:58 -!- bcasiello has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:49:31 -!- TheLie has joined. 19:02:09 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 19:15:50 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined. 19:17:05 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:23:32 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23. 19:35:59 -!- earend1 has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 19:52:26 [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79199&oldid=79094 * Tetrapyronia * (+0) 20:17:46 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:36:53 -!- none30 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:40:35 -!- Discordian[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:05:14 -!- none30 has joined. 21:06:25 -!- Discordian[m] has joined. 21:27:08 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:37:42 -!- sprocklem has joined. 21:40:51 -!- aaaaaa has joined. 21:48:46 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:14:48 [[IsThatAMotherFrickingSpecificAnimeReferenceLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79200&oldid=79146 * SoicBR * (-14) 22:59:07 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:07:18 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 23:41:14 -!- Arcorann has joined. 2020-12-06: 00:39:03 [[A0A0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79201&oldid=79168 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) /* Implementations */ wayback, list 00:51:39 [[Noodle Soup]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79202&oldid=71057 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* Hello World */ lk 01:08:39 this will be the first Christmas that I won't be celebrating while being in person together with my brother. it's a bit sad. 01:09:02 we'll still have some internet stuff of course 01:28:53 Oddly enough, we've spent the last five Christmases here in the UK without meeting any family, but now we're planning on doing the video call thing, even though we could've done that any of the past years. 01:37:07 it's been mixed for us, there were two non-consecutive years where we spent christmas at my brothers' in Sweden, which has the drawback of not being able to spend one day around christmas with my grandma 01:39:38 Someone who wishes to help for testing with Free Hero Mesh can compare with the behaviour of the EKS Hero Mesh; you will need the 16-bit Windows shareware version of Hero Defiant or Falling Hero (I think the 32-bit versions disable the class editor if you do not register, but the 16-bit versions still allow it to be used). 01:43:08 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 01:45:25 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:45:30 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 01:49:26 -!- imode has joined. 01:51:37 -!- imode has quit (Client Quit). 01:51:54 -!- imode has joined. 01:52:14 -!- imode has quit (Client Quit). 01:52:30 -!- imode has joined. 01:53:05 -!- imode has quit (Client Quit). 01:53:20 -!- imode has joined. 01:53:25 -!- imode has quit (Client Quit). 01:55:51 What exactly is "VCC+GIGICAR 1989 !!"? Some Amiga music files contain this as the title, and they are not all the same music. 01:56:32 -!- imode has joined. 01:57:27 (They do not all identify the same composers either) 02:03:09 The database says there are two Frenchpeople with those names, http://janeway.exotica.org.uk/author.php?id=3895 and http://janeway.exotica.org.uk/author.php?id=36020 -- so perhaps that's related somehow. 02:09:29 Yes, maybe it is related. 05:05:40 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 05:32:46 -!- adu has joined. 06:13:20 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 06:55:51 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:56:39 -!- xelxebar has joined. 07:53:04 -!- iovoid has quit (Quit: iovoid has quit!). 07:53:27 -!- iovoid has joined. 08:08:27 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:13:28 -!- aaaaaa has joined. 08:31:08 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cybertelx * New user account 08:34:10 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79203&oldid=79164 * Cybertelx * (+238) 08:35:23 [[User:Cybertelx]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79204 * Cybertelx * (+106) Created page with "Hi guys! I'm Cybertelx, the creator of a programming language known as Dick, published on npm as Dicklang." 09:07:57 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:16:16 [[Dick]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79205 * Cybertelx * (+1757) dick 09:17:20 [[Dick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79206&oldid=79205 * Cybertelx * (+63) added some clarification 09:21:27 [[Dick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79207&oldid=79206 * Cybertelx * (+106) added categories 09:22:21 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79208&oldid=79178 * Cybertelx * (+11) 09:23:02 [[Dick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79209&oldid=79207 * Cybertelx * (-28) remove joke lang 09:29:37 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 09:29:37 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 09:42:46 -!- delta23 has joined. 10:23:52 -!- NeverBorn has joined. 10:34:51 -!- LKoen has joined. 11:11:36 -!- Discordian[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:12:38 -!- none30 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 11:18:32 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:25:38 wtf is up with all those languages without any form of control flow 11:26:19 which ones. 11:27:19 imode: are you ignoring esowiki? The latest addition is https://esolangs.org/wiki/Dick which is about as terrible as it sounds, maybe more so. 11:27:23 -!- rain1 has joined. 11:27:30 yeah.. 11:27:49 imode: I'm not blaming you, but in this case you lost relevant context :) 11:28:18 -!- Discordian[m] has joined. 11:28:22 it's less of a hard ignore, more "I just don't see it anymore". 11:28:25 my eyes glaze over it. 11:28:37 why is that language in the TC category? 11:29:02 why did someone think that was a worthy addition. 11:29:07 presumably cluelessness on part of the author 11:29:30 and that may answer both questions, actually 11:31:01 lots of low effort joke esolangs on the wiki 11:33:56 [[Pointless]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79210&oldid=75241 * Int-e * (+0) speling of category 11:34:25 "speling" :) 11:35:43 [[*]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79211&oldid=75203 * Int-e * (+0) category spilling 11:37:19 [[Cheems]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79212&oldid=77575 * Int-e * (-1) catypogory 11:38:29 [[QTTRPG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79213&oldid=77578 * Int-e * (-20) remove unpopulated category 11:39:17 [[Complack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79214&oldid=77804 * Int-e * (-20) remove non-category 11:39:49 [[Categorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79215&oldid=77006 * Int-e * (-66) remove non-category 11:40:54 [[5D 5D Brainfuck With Multiverse Time Travel With Multiverse Time Travel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79216&oldid=76511 * Int-e * (-66) remove non-category 11:42:42 [[Absurd Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79217&oldid=68937 * Int-e * (-38) remove non-category 11:43:07 I guess that's the worst offenders from https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Categories&offset=&limit=500 11:43:35 -!- NeverBorn has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:44:39 -!- none30 has joined. 11:44:47 Not sure how I feel about graph-based... it could be viable actually if it were to encompass the graph rewriting ones 11:47:08 [[Dick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79218&oldid=79209 * Int-e * (-10) not TC 12:24:19 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 12:26:04 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Quit: leaving). 12:30:28 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RSG4908 * New user account 12:33:24 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79219&oldid=79203 * RSG4908 * (+295) 12:35:21 [[User:RSG4908]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79220 * RSG4908 * (+141) Created page with "Hello. I'm RSG4908. I currently do not have my own esolang yet, but I am currently at this hour, trying to come up with an esoteric language." 12:41:19 int-e: yes, the wiki is full of those. both ones with penis jokes https://esolangs.org/wiki/PenisScript https://esolangs.org/wiki/La_We%C3%A1 and stuff without control flow 12:41:19 I might do last years aoc 12:41:23 i keep hearing about the intcode 12:47:51 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Skyespr * New user account 12:49:59 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79221&oldid=79219 * Skyespr * (+167) added Skyespr's introduction 12:51:40 [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79222&oldid=77766 * Skyespr * (-190) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */ removed MLA idea after making it 12:52:21 -!- TheLie has joined. 12:53:53 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79223&oldid=79208 * Skyespr * (+12) added MLang 12:56:32 [[MLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79224 * Skyespr * (+9024) Created page, added readme from github because I didn't feel like typing the whole thing again 13:00:53 [[MLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79225&oldid=79224 * Skyespr * (+31) formatting 13:02:32 [[MLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79226&oldid=79225 * Skyespr * (+2) 13:04:34 [[MLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79227&oldid=79226 * Skyespr * (+47) 13:11:34 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 13:13:50 -!- rain1 has joined. 13:22:24 [[UClang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79228 * RSG4908 * (+1411) Create UClang language page 13:24:16 [[UClang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79229&oldid=79228 * RSG4908 * (-74) 13:24:19 [[MLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79230&oldid=79227 * Skyespr * (+86) added output 13:24:42 -!- dionys has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1). 13:24:55 day 6 of Aoc 2020 is easy enough too. but then, it could get more difficult any day. 13:24:56 -!- dionys has joined. 13:26:12 [[MLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79231&oldid=79230 * Skyespr * (+8) formatting 13:26:22 [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79232&oldid=79089 * RSG4908 * (+13) 13:28:04 [[UClang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79233&oldid=79229 * RSG4908 * (+10) 13:29:19 [[MLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79234&oldid=79231 * Skyespr * (-8) 13:31:43 [[UClang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79235&oldid=79233 * RSG4908 * (+1) 13:32:24 [[Talk:UClang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79236 * RSG4908 * (+130) Created page with "can we rename this page to UClang*? okthxbyte --~~~~" 13:33:32 [[UClang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79237&oldid=79235 * RSG4908 * (+31) 13:33:43 -!- arseniiv has joined. 13:37:18 -!- earend1 has joined. 13:47:04 [[UClang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79238&oldid=79237 * RSG4908 * (+25) 13:47:14 -!- delta23 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:47:50 -!- delta23 has joined. 13:50:15 I think I'm mostly unsatisfied by all the part twos being pretty much the same as the corresponding part ones so far. 13:52:42 yeah 13:53:10 though I foolishly did today's union by concatenating strings 13:53:30 so the difference is a tiny bit larger than it could be 13:58:50 fizzie: I don't think they're the same. they sound similat but are always a bit harder to atually solve. 13:59:39 int-e: I don't think that's foolish 14:00:44 and I still wonder what happens if a traveler answers no to all questions. 14:03:18 ...oh, they specified the set of all questions... that corner case didn't come up. 14:08:18 th e problem today did not excite me 14:08:27 The way I did today, literally the only difference between parts 1 and 2 was the choice of a boolean operator and initial value. And on day 3, part 2 was just "run part 1 five times". And on day 2, part 2 was arguably easier. 14:10:08 I liked most those puzzles last year where part 1 was solvable by just implementing the spec given in the calendar in the most straightforward way, but in part 2 that was obviously computationally infeasible, so you had to come up with something else. Unless you had overengineered part 1 already, of course. 14:12:39 https://adventofcode.com/2019/day/16 and https://adventofcode.com/2019/day/22 being prime examples (though non-prime numbers) of that kind of thing, except of course you presumably can't see part 2 if you didn't do last year. 14:13:50 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 14:14:36 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:15:05 fizzie: maybe you're better at guessing what the twist (second part) will be. I don't try to guess or make my first solution more complicated than it needs to be. today, I used one dictionary for the original, adding each letter, without bothering to do anything special between lines; for the twist I needed to use two dictionaries, the first collecting the letters of a line, the second intersecting the 14:15:11 lines. 14:15:53 I agree, there haven't been any really challenging part 2s so far this year (day 4 was just tedious) -- I think we're all waiting for the difficulty to pick up 14:16:37 FWIW, I realized that I only started AoC in the 10th day last year... so maybe that's why this year feels trivial so far 14:16:44 s/in/on/ 14:17:09 fizzie: day 3 was the closest, though I personally converted for a one-pass read-compute to a two-pass read then compute solution, that wasn't really necessary. the first day needed to change from one loop with a dictionary to a nested loop with a dictionary, so definitely more complicated. 14:17:22 day 2 indeed also barely changed. 14:18:19 day 5 had identical code (none) :P 14:19:31 int-e: Mmmaybe. 2019 had the Intcode thing going on pretty early on, which was interesting in a different way, but it's true that e.g. day 4 2019 was very similar to this year so far. 14:20:21 And https://adventofcode.com/2019/day/6 was pretty simple though I generally like the graph-y ones more. 14:20:51 int-e: for day 5, I had one line of code for the original (to convert from binary to decimal), but like ten lines of code for the twist 14:21:40 b_jonas: I just inspected the sorted list manually 14:22:13 and I'm not sure I'd have been faster writing code... probably not 14:22:24 I was going to say, it's quite possible the shell oneliner "solution" would've been the one for the leaderboards. 14:22:26 int-e: yes, but then how do you get from a binary number to a decimal number that you enter in the field? 14:22:39 int-e: inspecting the sorted list would work, sure 14:22:49 dc <<<2i1010101101p 14:23:01 I didn't do that because I wanted to know that there's only one number missing 14:23:12 I didn't care 14:23:34 I generally want to test and verify that the data is like what I expect. it doesn't matter for AoC, but for things I do at work it *does* help. 14:23:44 because the data is very often not what it's supposed to be 14:23:45 I picked the first gap in the list and submitted 14:23:53 yes, I guess that makes sense for AoC 14:24:42 in retrospect I should've converted to decimal, sorted, and then looked for the gap... might have saved half a minute because scanning decimals is easier 14:25:02 (for no better reason than familiarity) 14:25:21 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 14:25:33 int-e: nah, it might be easier to find the gap in the last column of binary than in decimal 14:25:41 since it's just two digits alternating 14:27:21 Today somebody did both parts in 1m27s... I wonder what kind of automation they have 14:27:27 and what sort of templates 14:28:11 I didn't sort for the original btw, because the letters don't sort naturally. F=0 B=1 sorts backwards, L=0 R=1 sorts forwards. I just grepped for ^BBB and a few more greps later I found the last one. 14:28:30 a sort could work if you tr first. 14:28:46 I imagine something like a Python repl with a few utilities like "read blank-line-separated paragraphs" would make a competitive AoC environment, at least for the simple ones. 14:29:00 int-e: I guess you could at least automatically download the input from the webpage 14:29:22 plus you could do way less verification than I do and submit the first attempt at an answer without checking 14:29:50 but that only helps for a speed competition, which I don't care much about, for the real world work guessing wouldn't work well 14:34:16 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 14:34:21 -!- rain1 has joined. 14:39:22 by the way, in task 4 twist, several people have passports where the issue year or expiry year or both are many years before their birth year, but all those passports are denied in the twist for other reasons 14:39:45 but nobody brought a passport that expired before it was issued 14:40:40 this mostly happens in passports with the birth year in the future, but there's one with byr:1983 iyr:1958 eyr:1979 14:41:21 the people who bring that sort of fake document should probably get arrested and questioned, not merely denied their entry to the airplane 14:45:29 many people also have nonexistant country codes, but the spec explicitly says to ignore that, so that's fine 14:45:48 in fact actual country codes seem to be rare 14:59:17 fizzie: you're definitely right though that Intcode made last year's AoC more likely to appeal to esolangers. And we did discuss the power of Intcode quite a bit back then. 15:03:15 -!- NeverBorn has joined. 15:16:45 `random-pizza 15:16:47 random-pizza? No such file or directory 15:18:22 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:19:49 -!- NeverBorn has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:20:07 -!- NeverBorn has joined. 15:23:51 -!- user24 has joined. 15:24:49 -!- NeverBorn has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:27:22 fungot, does Horn Drill bypass normal damage calculation rules? 15:27:22 b_jonas: ' i still don't like it," said ridcully. he scratched his chin with his free hand into a grinder? this place deserves vorbis! sheep deserve to be caught. 15:43:16 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:45:38 -!- delta23 has joined. 15:47:12 -!- MDude has joined. 15:47:20 int-e: b_jonas: Just to put some numbers on this, here's the median time in seconds to get one/two stars for the top 100s: http://ix.io/2GRX 15:47:23 The big numbers on 2020 day 1 are I think a problem when releasing the puzzle (that's why it awarded no points), and I think there's been some of those in the past too. 16:02:22 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:08:33 [[UClang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79239&oldid=79238 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) wikilink, cat, / 16:09:53 [[Talk:UClang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79240&oldid=79236 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+258) reply 16:15:13 fizzie: wow, that's a big table 16:15:28 nice 16:23:23 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79241&oldid=79182 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-219) Minification 16:23:42 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79242&oldid=79241 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+134) /* weivrevo egaugnaL */ min 16:24:13 [[UClang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79243&oldid=79239 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Instructions */ tb 16:25:52 [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79244&oldid=79126 * Aspwil * (+853) /* Code examples */ 16:26:05 [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79245&oldid=79244 * Aspwil * (-1) /* Add 2 numbers */ 16:30:01 [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Aspwil * uploaded "[[File:NDBALL.jpg]]" 16:30:10 [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79247&oldid=79245 * Aspwil * (+130) /* Add 2 numbers */ 16:30:38 [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79248&oldid=79247 * Aspwil * (+1) /* Add 2 numbers */ 16:32:50 [[Dick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79249&oldid=79218 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+71) headers, cat, 69, not TC 16:33:21 [[MLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79250&oldid=79234 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* design parameters: */ list 16:34:06 Along those lines, here's also the twistiness rating for each day: http://ix.io/2GSu 16:34:12 Defined as the ratio between total think-time spent by the first 100 people to get two stars vs. to get one star. 16:34:18 [[Yo!nk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79251&oldid=79108 * Mantita223 * (+136) /* Syntax */ 16:34:36 [[MLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79252&oldid=79250 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+8) /* Hello world */ code 16:34:49 So I guess it's not really that different from previous years, and in fact day 4 of 2020 was above-average twisty. 16:34:49 [[Yo!nk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79253&oldid=79251 * Mantita223 * (+12) /* Hello World */ 16:35:09 [[MLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79254&oldid=79252 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-8) Undo revision 79252 by [[Special:Contributions/PythonshellDebugwindow|PythonshellDebugwindow]] ([[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow|talk]]) (was this literal?) 16:35:33 What was day 4 again? Oh, right, the passport verification, with the strict rules for part 2. Makes sense, I guess. 16:36:03 [[MLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79255&oldid=79254 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+90) /* output */ CATS 16:38:12 The numbers also suggest year 2019 was unusually twisty (median twistiness of 2.14, compared to 1.23, 1.53, 1.70 and 1.81 for 2015-2018 and 1.76 for 2020 so far), which might be why my expectations are amiss. 16:38:59 Can't argue with science. (Having some numbers equals science. (I learned that from some recent election lawsuits.)) 16:41:37 fizzie: nice 16:42:31 fizzie: I wonder if we could guess from these numbers that day 7 will have the first harder task 16:44:17 That does look a little like a trend, from eyeballing the numbers. (Should've probably plotted these instead, because eyeballs are more compatible with pixels than numbers.) 16:45:26 Also, I didn't include today because I thought "I couldn't possibly, the day is still ongoing", but it's not like the leaderboard is going to change. 16:46:11 -!- Guest26718 has joined. 16:46:53 -!- Guest26718 has left. 16:50:45 http://ix.io/2GSF with day 6 included. 16:57:42 fizzie: thanks 16:58:49 so still in normal range, high variance. 16:59:23 (the first couple of days in 2015 don't count, they mostly indicate a certain lack of popularity) 17:00:01 shachaf: I finished Hiding Spot 17:00:41 shachaf: 609 is one of the hardest puzzles in all the game, though there are one or two more of comparable difficulty, to me. 17:01:24 shachaf: And there is one final puzzle after the 54 you can access at any time. 17:06:29 (Oh ambiguity. There are 54 levels that you can access from the beginning. The final one unlocks when you've completed the other ones.) 17:06:40 fizzie: is day 1 always on --12-01 of the year given? 17:10:41 I find it a bit strange that there are 25 days, not 25, from --12-01 to --12-24 inclusive. is there an ISO standard advent calendar or something? 17:12:02 cultural difference 17:14:12 Or maybe just a matter of taste... 'Many Advent calendars take the form of a large rectangular card with "windows",[5] one for each day of December leading up to and including Christmas Eve (December 24) or Christmas Day (December 25).' 17:14:38 yes, probably 17:15:43 Meanwhile, in Germany: "Nach 1945 setzte sich endgültig der Kalender beginnend vom 1. Dezember mit 24 Türchen durch." 17:16:02 Always trust the Germans to standardize all the important things. 17:16:03 interesting 17:16:27 int-e: well, but more often than not, there are german and international rules for something 17:16:37 yep 17:16:40 like jugger or quidditch 17:16:51 or chess 17:16:58 there are german chess rules? 17:16:58 myname: Yeah I wasn't sure whether US advent calendars were universally 25 days long. 17:18:07 One point in favor is that they tend to celebrate the 25th. One point against is that 6x4 is an aesthetically more pleasing rectangle compared to a 5x5 square. I mean, in the interest of overthinking it. 17:18:30 probably. chess had a lot of variant rules, some of their differences are just phrasing and bookkeeping, some were bugs that got patched away when a player first used them in a tournament (like the bug when you used to be able to promote a pawn to an opponent's piece), some are just stupid rules that aren't used in practice (like the dead game rules) 17:18:30 as a german, 24 is obviously the right way to go 17:19:00 int-e: it's not 6x4 because the last day gets a larger door 17:19:01 why would i ever change my figure to an opponent one? 17:19:08 b_jonas: not always 17:19:39 myname: because in some very rare cases that lets you win an endgame 17:19:40 myname: because then the opponent can't capture it 17:19:50 ah 17:19:55 give a check with very few pieces remaining 17:20:08 and there's less likelyhood of stalemate, right 17:20:15 likelihood 17:20:24 the internet probably has an example 17:20:28 a historical one that is 17:20:38 of those rule gaps, 0-0-0-0 is my favorite 17:20:50 what's that 17:22:27 castling extra long. the rule phrasing it's based on stipulates that if the king hasn't moved and the rook hasn't moved, the king may castle by making two steps towards the rook while the rook moves to the crossed square... provided all intermediate squares are empty and the king is not in check before, after, or on the square it crossed. 17:22:28 int-e: what's that? 17:22:28 oh, there was also castling forwards 17:22:30 :D 17:22:46 so... you promote the king pawn to a rook... has the rook moved? 17:22:55 obviously not 17:23:00 int-e: oh heck 17:23:28 can that lead the king to a point that's not aligned to a square if the rook isn't lined up nicely? 17:23:39 nah 17:23:42 because it would be hard to check it then 17:23:56 also I've made that text up, trying to capture the important points 17:24:07 -!- TheLie has joined. 17:24:50 It's been a while since I learned about this. IIRC this rule interpretation was cooked up for a chess problem; it never happened in an actual game. 17:26:26 yeah, those rules are found more often by puzzle makers than by players 17:27:34 some rulesets also have silly bugs where it says that once the game ends, you can't change the result if an illegal move is later discovered, so you can just quickly make an illegal move that gives a checkmate, and unless the opponent is fast enough to call an umpire during your move, you've won 17:27:40 you can do that right as your first move 17:27:52 Oh I think I need more zeros. 17:28:52 0-0-0-0-0-0-0 (if the number of zeros represents how many squares the rook moves, which is the case for 0-0 and 0-0-0) 17:28:57 int-e: I don't like the zeros at all, they're remains from old forms of notation. just denote castling by the logical Kb1, Kf1, Kb8, or Kf8 17:29:28 I... like them, mostly 17:29:46 to the extent that I care at all, which isn't very much 17:29:48 int-e: plus if it represents how many squares the rook moves, you may have to use 0 zeroes and -1 hyphens in Fischer random chess 17:30:26 that would be fun. 17:31:15 Anyway, I like that castling stands out in a game record. 17:31:29 also the moves are Kc1, Kg1, Kc8, Kg8 because I'm stupid 17:32:25 Right. Which I would've noticed if I was familiar with chess notation :P 17:32:48 but yeah, the notation with the king also doesn't work in Fischer random chess, because it may be ambigious with a normal king move 17:32:51 s/familiar/fluent/ 17:33:21 maybe you should write both? K0-0-0c1 or something 17:33:28 ow 17:34:39 or just K0c1 or something 17:34:59 the 0 takes the place of an x that indicates capture 17:52:30 Why was castling notation written as "0-0" and "0-0-0" anyways? 17:57:45 Also, Advent starts on Sunday, so why do they call it that even though it does not start on Sunday? 18:06:43 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:40:02 "like the bug when you used to be able to promote a pawn to an opponent's piece" <-- lmao 18:40:12 is there a situation where this is advantageous? 18:40:57 oh, I see there is some discussion of this 18:42:57 0-0-0 ought to be a type of steam engine 18:43:00 but probably not a very useful one 18:47:57 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:50:24 Finnish advent calendars definitely have 24 doors. 18:50:35 But we do the presents thing on the 24th as well. 18:51:25 The last day tends to get double doors. 18:52:08 And often it's not a regular pattern, since part of the fun is trying to find the next number, and that gets trickier when they're not in a grid but instead hidden away in natural edges of the picture. 18:57:57 -!- LKoen has joined. 19:14:58 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 19:16:10 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 19:16:10 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 19:16:42 [[Finvara]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79256&oldid=78715 * Tetrapyronia * (-8) 19:21:52 that's cute 19:22:04 you do regular xmas presents on the 24th? or something else? 19:23:53 Yes there are situations where it is an advantage to promote to opponent's piece, such as to prevent another opponent's piece from occupying it, and possibly also to avoid stalemate in some situations. I think some even older versions of the rules said that promotion is optional, and did not say that you are not allowed to promote to a king. 19:24:53 i was wondering about that too 19:25:08 having multiple kings seems disadvantageous 19:25:21 because you'd be obliged to respond if either is in check, and you'd lose if either is in checkmate? 19:25:24 but maybe that's not how it works 19:25:46 maybe these things would only apply to your last king 19:27:53 Apparently once (I don't know if it is true) someone who did not know that promotion to king is disallowed did so, and opponent's next move was to checkmate both kings simultaneously. 19:32:44 lol 19:57:30 Regular presents, yes. Whatever that means. 19:58:33 in my family we did regular christmas presents on the morning of the 25th, as is typical in the US, but each kid also got a book for a present on the evening of the 24th 19:58:45 which I think was just a tradition of our family and not a particularly common thing 19:59:14 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:59:15 That all reminded me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIj8NphrAFI 20:01:22 "0-0-0 ought to be a type of steam engine" or a football strategy when all players except one got the red card 20:01:44 also not a very useful one 20:02:06 we also did trick-or-treating on October 30th, not 31st 20:02:16 "Beggar's Night" 20:02:20 that's a thing in certain parts of the Midwest 20:03:07 We do trick-or-treating on Palm Sunday around Easter, curiously enough. 20:03:12 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virvonta 20:04:10 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38). 20:05:17 (Maybe not exactly the same, but closest we used to have, really. Although maybe these days they do a more Halloweeny thing too.) 20:34:22 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:53:43 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:01:34 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 21:02:33 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 21:02:33 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 21:02:56 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:07:00 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:11:22 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 21:26:26 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:33:13 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:54:18 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 22:01:48 Mostly as an excuse to use Altair outside the context of Google Colab: https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/ 22:02:11 -!- TheLie has joined. 22:09:15 -!- Arcorann has joined. 22:10:09 -!- Arcorann has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:10:35 -!- Arcorann has joined. 22:19:39 -!- zzo38 has joined. 22:33:51 -!- sprocklem has joined. 22:37:18 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:01:49 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 23:27:56 -!- earend1 has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 2020-12-07: 00:00:26 -!- zzo38 has joined. 00:01:06 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:10:56 -!- delta23 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:11:14 -!- delta23 has joined. 00:43:31 hmm, apparently Erich Friedman's periodic table of mathematicians https://erich-friedman.github.io/periodic/ suffered some link rot between its state in 2011 "http://www2.stetson.edu/~efriedma/periodictable/ and when it got moved to github in 2020-08 00:43:35 https://github.com/erich-friedman/erich-friedman.github.io/commit/b317aa1ecbf9cf43ad8dee9c1a4c81db29ecfb2d#diff-a8f9b083bb67e1d94f586b59296004debb997e79367a4d182d31487f157c543d 00:44:11 in the sense that some of the HTML pages have been renamed, and the old name points to a different bibliography now 00:44:39 so it's not easy to find a bibliography even if you know the old url and the name of the mathematicians whose bibliography it is 00:47:11 (also he has .DS_Store committed to the github -- apparently this file is the equivalent of windows's desktop.ini , the file in which file explorer stores folder-specific settings) 01:10:48 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 01:41:47 -!- earend1 has joined. 01:44:18 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:44:36 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 01:54:28 [[Special:Log/move]] move * RSG4908 * moved [[UClang]] to [[UClang*]]: Add star to make sure someone doesn't confuse it with https://github.com/izuzanak/uclang 01:54:29 [[Special:Log/move]] move * RSG4908 * moved [[Talk:UClang]] to [[Talk:UClang*]]: Add star to make sure someone doesn't confuse it with https://github.com/izuzanak/uclang 02:02:03 [[UClang*]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79261&oldid=79257 * RSG4908 * (+7) Add table of contents 02:06:56 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79262&oldid=79003 * RSG4908 * (+132) Add UClang* example 02:29:53 [[UClang*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79263&oldid=79261 * RSG4908 * (+157) 02:30:13 [[UClang*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79264&oldid=79263 * RSG4908 * (+0) /* Instructions */ 02:39:05 [[UClang*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79265&oldid=79264 * RSG4908 * (+76) 02:39:32 [[UClang*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79266&oldid=79265 * RSG4908 * (+1) /* Implementations */ 02:58:20 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:37:49 -!- arseniiv has joined. 03:48:54 -!- aaaaaa has joined. 05:21:37 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:22:24 fizzie: ah, the graph based one is back 05:35:46 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 06:08:51 -!- Cale has joined. 06:45:46 [[Sadako]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79267 * Tetrapyronia * (+1649) a new language i guess 06:47:00 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79268&oldid=79138 * Tetrapyronia * (+65) Added Sadako 06:48:02 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79269&oldid=79268 * Tetrapyronia * (+1) Fixed alphabetization 06:48:35 [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79270&oldid=79199 * Tetrapyronia * (+26) 06:49:03 [[Sadako]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79271&oldid=79267 * Tetrapyronia * (+2) 06:51:12 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:55:32 -!- lambdabot has joined. 06:56:22 Hmm, Sadako... cute concept, but sadly, there's no way to refer to new points. 06:57:42 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:02:32 -!- tromp has joined. 07:04:38 int-e: Back to Hiding Spot. 07:04:57 I was hoping I'd get back to 609 and just immediately figure it out in a few minutes, but no, it's still tricky. 07:05:04 shachaf: beware of the monsters 07:05:27 Uh oh. 07:06:13 https://slbkbs.org/tmp/2020-12-06-230533_3840x2160.png -- not the solution. :-( 07:06:45 that looks cute 07:07:21 It also triggers a bug (?) when you stand up. The chairs rises with you, so it's floating. 07:07:53 Hmm I didn't encounter any bugs here... 07:08:31 but I don't think that I've even tested that particular case 07:08:33 I mean, not a game-breaking bug. 07:08:47 I also had a bug several times where you get embedded into furniture. 07:08:54 (sitting below an upright table) 07:09:05 https://slbkbs.org/tmp/2020-11-30-012225_3840x2160.png 07:09:25 what 07:09:48 You never ran into that? 07:10:02 It happened at least three times to me with various furniture in various places. 07:10:25 I never ran into anything like it. 07:10:40 We may be playing different versions of the game though; I downloaded it from itch.io 07:11:08 I'm using the Steam version. 07:11:24 v1.0.8 07:11:25 I was also running it under Windows, but it's hard to imagine that wine would make it fail in this way. 07:11:43 v1.0.6 here, fun. 07:11:54 So maybe a new bug :P 07:12:00 I guess that's two extra bugs. 07:12:55 well the other one might still be there 07:13:04 or s/still/already/ 07:14:58 I thought that 8 was the bug count. 07:15:13 oh 07:19:04 Anyway if you were never even standing under a table like, then presumably I'm not on the right track at all. 07:19:39 I guess as long as I'm getting into situations I haven't been in before, at least I'm making some sort of forward progress. 07:19:48 I managed to stack a table on top of another table. 07:24:05 https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/609a.png ... looks fine 07:24:46 If you crouch and stand back up, it doesn't float? 07:25:06 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 07:25:09 shachaf: yep, tried that 07:27:24 and I've definitely crouched inder a table and stood up, lifting it, so the second screenshot looks terrible 07:27:46 Yes, that doesn't happen reproducibly. 07:27:53 Or, I mean, I haven't figured out what causes it. 07:28:01 -!- sprocklem has joined. 07:28:09 And I *think* when I pressed undo and took the same action it didn't happen a second time, though I'm not confident. 07:29:07 hmm, there doesn't seem to be a changelog :-/ 07:29:25 (well, I haven't found any) 07:30:28 It's probably a subtle difference in the implementation of the Win32 API that WINE gets wrong. 07:31:06 but... shouldn't this part be purely handled by game logic without Win32 API interference... 07:31:47 that's the part that irritates me 07:32:05 I mean, I was saying a clearly false thing there. 07:32:27 I don't even know if it's using WINE. Linux is listed as an official platform in Steam. 07:33:14 https://coreymartin.itch.io/hiding-spot-ld-jam-version says it's implemented with Unity. I don't know whether the full game is. 07:33:43 oh. 07:34:07 it could be something mundane then, like C/C++ code that relies on undefined behavior in one place. 07:34:37 Just now: https://slbkbs.org/tmp/2020-12-06-233408_3840x2160.png 07:34:46 I wonder why there isn't a Linux version on itch.io then. 07:35:12 shachaf: after pulling it in from the right? 07:35:23 I *think* the last key I pressed was right. 07:35:25 But I'm not sure. 07:35:30 No, I guess I am sure. 07:35:32 shift-left? 07:35:35 Because undo brought me to the corner. 07:35:43 right? you walked into the box? 07:35:46 Yes. 07:35:48 wow 07:36:06 I've definitely not experienced any glitches like that. 07:36:41 I'm vaguely remembering that's how the table screenshot from above happened too, actually, just walking into it. 07:36:49 and it would be rather annoying... and game-breaking because it'll allow weird solutions to puzzles 07:37:24 Well, game-breaking in that it allows you to cheat. 07:37:40 sure, you can call it a cheat 07:37:44 Which I don't mind in general. But it's certainly a bug. 07:37:52 wait are those lack racks? 07:39:05 This is the floating I was talking about, by the way: https://slbkbs.org/tmp/2020-12-06-233839_3840x2160.png 07:39:25 shachaf: Okay, so I pictured it correctly. 07:39:34 shachaf: Man that must be annoying to play. 07:39:48 I don't think this breaks any solutions, though. 07:40:07 yeah the floating table is *probably* harmless. 07:40:22 But walking through boxes without pushing them isn't, of course. 07:40:56 Yes, but it only happens rarely. 07:41:01 Well, harmless for solutions. It messes with building an internal model for the puzzle mechanics. 07:41:20 So it doesn't excuse me not solving this puzzle by now. 07:41:32 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 07:41:32 I think I have the correct model for how everything behaves at this point. 07:41:56 I think what makes 609 hard is that basically every floor square could be a hiding spot 07:42:12 so the usual approach of figuring out where to go and then working towards that goal doesn't work 07:42:56 And, of course, the tables are kind of hard to visualize properly. 07:52:20 -!- tromp has joined. 07:52:39 shachaf: Hmm, turntables, or turning tables... there must be a GOOD pun in this. 07:53:20 int-e is making puns now? 07:53:22 The tables have turned. 07:53:25 I guess technically it's more tipping and pushing tables. 07:53:28 Shocking, I know. 07:54:08 `? pun 07:54:12 Puns are fun. Ask shachaf about them. But beware of Muphry adding misspellings. 07:54:33 Oh an inside joke. 07:55:39 Oh, it's set up not to hilight me. Very considerate. 07:56:17 OK, I just walked through furniture again. 07:56:30 This time it was a table that was on its side, so I could have gotten to that state anyway. 08:02:19 708 is making me question my model, on the other hand, hmm. 08:07:24 no clue which one that is 08:10:32 Golly. 08:10:35 Are there monsters? 08:10:44 I don't want to be spookled. 08:11:42 shachaf: don't worry, the monsters are just in your head 08:12:26 (How is that supposed to be reassuring? :-P) 08:14:29 `grWp mock 08:14:30 identity function:The identity function is a mockingbird. \ mockingbird:mockingbird is watching you.. closely! Is it mocking you? Probably. \ patent:Patent is an adjective which means that something is painfully obvious. Often used to rightfully mock people that do not see it. 09:13:10 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * 0xFF * New user account 09:22:41 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79272&oldid=79221 * 0xFF * (+479) /* Introductions */ 09:23:25 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:24:28 [[User:0xFF]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79273 * 0xFF * (+477) Created page with "uw:1,1;wm:1;am:2;am:4;at;uw:1,0;uw:2:0;uw:4,0;uw:1,1;uw:2,1;uw:5,1;uw:7,1;at;uw:1,0;uw:2,0;uw:5,0;uw:7,0;uw:1,1;uw:2,1;uw:4,1;uw:5,1;at;at;uw:6,1;uw:7,1;at;uw:0,0;uw:1,0;uw:2,..." 09:33:31 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79274&oldid=79242 * 0xFF * (-28346) 09:35:32 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 09:35:32 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 09:44:42 -!- LKoen has joined. 09:44:58 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:02:33 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 10:04:56 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:22:53 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:23:13 -!- xelxebar has joined. 10:33:07 [[MLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79275&oldid=79255 * Skyespr * (+4) 10:39:42 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bog'riquet De FerChef * New user account 10:49:05 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79276&oldid=79272 * Bog'riquet De FerChef * (+335) /* Introductions */ 10:53:18 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79277&oldid=79276 * Bog'riquet De FerChef * (+137) /* Introductions */ forgot signature 10:57:07 [[Talk:Braincopter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79278 * Bog'riquet De FerChef * (+116) /* About pixel extraction (65536 * R + 256 * G + B) */ new section 11:11:56 [[UClang*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79279&oldid=79266 * RSG4908 * (+124) 11:29:32 hey guys, how old is progressive JPEG? en.Wikipedia only says "When progressive JPEGs are received by programs that do not support them (such as versions of Internet Explorer before Windows 7)[47] the software displays the image only after it has been completely downloaded." but I know the grandmaphone that I first bought a few years ago for my grandma doesn't display them at all. 11:31:01 It's just that I was wondering about image formats, and how JPEG is really old, and how after the failure of jpeg2000, and how we really need a new one, and how google's webp might finally be able to break the deadlock, 11:31:40 and then I realized that "JPEG is so old" is not entirely fair when I really rely on progressive JPEGs and how they can compress much better than baseline JPEGs because they can use different Huffman tables for different progressive steps. 11:32:27 I don't really use them for being "progressive" in the sense that you can decode them in lower quality from a prefix of the file, but I am using them for better compression. 11:33:09 hmm, apparently progressive encoding is supposed to be part of "baseline jpeg". then I don't know why that phone doesn't support it 11:33:21 There was also an issue with embedding such jpegs into pdf I think 11:33:28 so the grandmaphone is not the only broken case 11:35:15 apparently I can't find out if it's specified in the original 1992 JPEG spec, because it's an ISO standard and "https://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-T.81" says "This text was produced through a joint activity with ISO and IEC. According to the agreement with our partners, this document is only available through payment." 11:35:25 wow, standards that you have to pay for are so useful 11:38:31 mind you, the standard isn't even really necessary, in the sense of https://xkcd.com/971/ , because you can do all the same things without a standard (sell something for much more money by stating it conforms to standars without the customer being able to verify that easily) by just referring to "current industry best practice" or the euphemism "current industry standard" which means the same. 11:39:39 btw apparently each AoC day has an alliterating name 11:42:33 wait wait, are banks actually allowed to advertise loans as targeted to businesses in trouble, as opposed to targeted to individuals in trouble or businesses trying to grow? 11:43:47 or are they not allowed but doing it anyway when the current government happens to be on their side of politics? 11:54:09 [[Talk:Pistons & Pistons]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79280&oldid=64263 * Bog'riquet De FerChef * (+221) /* Language origin */ new section 12:06:22 it doesn't looks like webp took hold yet 12:10:07 Wikimedia Commons has 160 TB of jpeg, 69 TB of tiff (wow), 4 TB of png, but less than a gigabyte of webp. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MediaStatistics 12:17:07 [[Talk:Brain:D]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79281 * Bog'riquet De FerChef * (+500) /* Token identification */ new section 12:19:51 int-e: Yeah. Was surprised at how rudimentary the graph utilities my Go solutions from last year had. I guess the problems were just never quite exactly the same, and Go isn't such a great language for abstraction, so didn't end up with general DFS/BFS/shortest-path utilities. 12:20:43 -!- spruit11 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:20:53 https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/time.two.html suggests day 7 *was* a bump up in difficulty, but not as much of a one than in previous years. Or else the contest has just gotten more popular and/or the people on the leaderboards have improved their tools. 12:20:58 -!- spruit11 has joined. 12:22:07 fizzie: and I used KISS and just used a iteration until a fixed point is reached 12:22:25 no! darn it, don't spoil it yet 12:22:32 I haven't solved day 7 yet 12:22:36 I won't read 12:22:45 fungot: spam? 12:22:45 int-e: the breath of god. ' it all begins to make sense of the presence, for some strange reason and in any case. 12:22:54 ^style europarl 12:22:54 Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006) 12:23:00 fungot: Some proper long-form spam? 12:23:00 fizzie: mr president, i will use this important time to help end the spiral of violence which algeria is experiencing political crisis, as you describe it, i quite understand that the criteria for adjusting to the market throughout the union. 12:23:06 Shorter than I expected. 12:28:42 -!- rain1 has joined. 12:29:06 fungot: lovely spam! 12:29:07 int-e: mr president, we would all love to see: a shorter working week, correctly carried out, and the proposed limit value of 0.1 ppm would be too many control centres is nonsense. last year 390 000 people applied for asylum in a member state and we have to acknowledge that undoubtedly we will also continue to be permitted for several years now. i would also like to emphasise once again how much the european union 12:29:13 that's more like it 12:29:40 https://github.com/oskarsve/ms-teams-rce ... sigh ... Electron, what a grand idea. 12:33:20 We would all love to see a shorter working week, but 0.1 ppm is just too short. 12:33:57 I take it that means you work for... about 60 milliseconds a week. 12:39:47 that'll raise a lot of complaints about the daily commute 12:40:32 > 86400*7 12:40:34 604800 12:40:48 that number doesn't look familiar at all :) 12:41:31 > 86400 * 14 12:41:34 1209600 12:45:01 [[Talk:Shorten your Brainfuck code]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79282 * Bog'riquet De FerChef * (+168) Created page with "What the brainf*er are those. --~~~~" 12:46:28 hmm... driving at 1 nanoparsec per fortnight 12:47:06 `` units 'nanoparsec per fortnight' 'mph' 12:47:08 ​* 57.064023 \ / 0.017524176 12:48:14 -!- MDude has joined. 12:50:15 I also have a hard time spelling "fortnight" correctly. 12:50:53 Because of that stupid video game (that I've never played but watched a bit on youtube.) 12:52:57 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 13:20:04 [[DDuuaall]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79283&oldid=76121 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-7) m 13:23:16 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:31:46 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79284&oldid=69175 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) link 13:32:06 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79285&oldid=79284 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* External Links */ h 13:42:01 -!- Arcorann has joined. 13:44:23 -!- LKoen_ has joined. 13:47:09 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:48:23 -!- xelxebar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:50:48 -!- xelxebar has joined. 13:54:40 oh jesus. yesterday we mentioned the bugs in former specifications in chess. and now I'm reading back a forum discussion about how in D&D 3.5 the rules don't seem to clearly claim that an object animated with the "Animate object" spell is a creature, even though the rules are seemingly written as if they wanted to make it a creature. 13:55:26 but then it turns out that there is a rule that claims that, we just didn't find it at first 13:55:52 that was a bit silly 13:59:45 and then that other potential bug that an epic sorcerer can research epic spells that are very much underpowered so they're never worth to actually cast, but that have a negative XP cost to research, so they can just research it without ever casting them and gain unlimited XP for free. (the hard part is of course becoming an epic spellcaster in first place, for which you need 21 XLs and 19 Cha.) 14:00:53 and then you can spend that XP to research and cast overpowered epic spells of course. 14:04:25 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:10:46 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:24:07 -!- Melvar has joined. 14:35:47 [[Sadako]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79286&oldid=79271 * Tetrapyronia * (+9) 14:39:25 -!- rain1 has joined. 14:57:28 -!- bilal has joined. 14:57:36 ear 14:59:02 * bilal is happy to join this channel 15:02:15 -!- bilal has left ("Leaving"). 15:05:27 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:06:09 hmm 15:23:13 eye! 15:23:17 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 15:25:40 (what else is usually there in twos, chopsticks?) 15:28:22 "that'll raise a lot of complaints about the daily commute" => what, do you mean like all the color-coded bags that you have to buy? 15:28:34 arseniiv: hands 15:29:52 Taneb: hm indeed 15:30:04 arseniiv: twins 15:30:22 int-e: are they chiral though? 15:30:25 arseniiv: cherries, shoes 15:30:43 arseniiv: I think that depends on the twins 15:30:44 I thought cherries may be in threes or ones?.. 15:31:39 they may be, they're only *usually* in twos 15:32:06 Bongos 15:32:59 now I wonder if there is some name for all non-thumb digits as a whole 15:33:10 they they will be in a pair with a thumb 15:33:16 arseniiv: some call it "fingers" 15:33:17 arseniiv: I want to say dancers, but that requires two twos: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tutu_(clothing) 15:33:38 but I just suggest "second to fifth digits inclusive" 15:34:19 well, it depends on whether you count your first toe as a thumb 15:34:33 b_jonas: I mean, not each of them by itself, but all at once. This even has a crumb of merit to go with mittens 15:34:47 arseniiv: dunno then 15:35:01 `grWp tutu 15:35:06 hm cat : kitten = mat : mitten?.. 15:35:07 No output. 15:35:41 int-e: lol :D 15:37:38 `? lirpa 15:37:40 lirpa? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 15:39:53 `? numpy 15:39:54 numpy? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 15:46:43 `? hem 15:46:44 hem? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 15:51:13 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:55:28 [[Nopfunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79287&oldid=44808 * Bog'riquet De FerChef * (+2) /* Language overview */ 17:41:10 [[Sadako]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79288&oldid=79286 * Tetrapyronia * (+56) Added command 17:47:58 -!- spruit11 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:59:35 -!- spruit11 has joined. 18:51:35 [[File talk:PureFolders HelloWorld.png]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79289 * Bog'riquet De FerChef * (+228) /* Column parent matching */ new section 18:53:52 arseniiv: I think it's more like bat : bitten 18:55:32 -!- LKoen_ has changed nick to LKoen. 19:05:43 -!- xelxebar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:06:42 -!- xelxebar has joined. 19:12:18 -!- xelxebar_ has joined. 19:15:03 -!- xelxebar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:28:57 I wrote that on my input line, but then decided it didn't make enough sense to press enter. 19:30:28 stupid notebook and Windows, there's a power button, please don't wake up from sleep on a keypress 19:33:16 I solved https://adventofcode.com/2020/day/7 rather slowly because I put at least two stupid bugs in my code and had to debug them, but at least I had a reasonable idea about what the twist would be and so wrote the code in a way that would support that 19:35:06 -!- sprocklem has joined. 19:37:13 I was sort of sure that at least the numbers would be important eventually. 19:38:37 fizzie: yes, the numerals, which were unused in the first part, gave it away 19:43:54 or maybe it's animals like rat : written 19:44:46 Continuing my "if it's got graphs in it, convert it to dot" thing I was already doing last year, I've rendered the two examples as https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/day07-ex1.png and https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/day07-ex2.png with the colors denoting shiny gold ancestors/descendants. 19:45:38 fizzie: heh 19:45:45 Unfortunately GraphViz just can't really cope with the 594-node actual puzzle input in any meaningful fashion: https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/day07-small.png 19:46:14 Tried a few of the other layout engines as well, but it really wasn't any better. 19:53:23 fizzie: does it become nicer if you put shorter labels into the nodes instead of the full color name? "mirrored chartreuse" is so long. admittedly there are short ones like "dim red" 19:56:51 apparently they're using all combinations of 18*38 color names, the 18 prefixes go like "dim, dark, rdab, dull, ..., dotted, striped, vibrant, mirrored" with mostly 4 and 5 letters, the suffixes like "red, tan, aqua, blue, ..., fuchsia, magenta, lavender, turquoise, chartreuse" with mostly 4 and 5 and 6 long names 19:57:33 It's a little bit better, but not really that much. The non-resized image went from 32242x3003 pixels to 25557x3003 when I used consecutive integers from 0 as the names. 19:58:02 I see 20:00:38 My input has 18 prefixes as well, but only 33 color names. 20:01:59 I'm also not 100% on what exactly the color "clear tomato" looks like. 20:03:55 yeah, 33, not 38 20:06:18 probably looks like diluated tomato juice 20:18:39 -!- earend1 has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 20:21:03 -!- sebbu has quit (Quit: Quitte). 20:59:08 [[Talk:Braincopter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79290&oldid=79278 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+62) unsigned 21:02:50 [[Pistons & Pistons]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79291&oldid=67996 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) /* Implementations */ cls 21:03:09 [[Pistons & Pistons]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79292&oldid=79291 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-20) unpipe 21:06:01 [[Brain:D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79293&oldid=65351 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) Unimplemented & Uncomputable 21:08:04 [[Sadako]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79294&oldid=79288 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+118) /* Example program: Truth Machine */ cats 21:10:10 [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79295&oldid=79232 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* General languages */ fix link 21:11:36 [[Vague]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79296&oldid=59900 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+92) chates 21:11:50 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jemhunter * New user account 21:12:12 [[Spice]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79297&oldid=79162 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* External resources */ tac 21:13:04 [[LINR]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79298&oldid=51977 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* External resources */ cat 21:13:37 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79299&oldid=79223 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* S */ [[Sadako]] 21:17:32 [[Categorial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79300&oldid=79215 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) /* Language overview */ This likely is language 21:17:51 [[Sally]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79301&oldid=19305 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) cat 21:18:44 [[Sally]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79302&oldid=79301 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+74) The Languages.md file says 2000 ;;; cats 21:20:17 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79303&oldid=79274 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28380) Undo revision 79274 by [[Special:Contributions/0xFF|0xFF]] ([[User talk:0xFF|talk]]) (not a chance) 21:50:01 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 22:00:20 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 22:01:53 -!- zzo38 has joined. 22:02:47 -!- izabera has quit (*.net *.split). 22:02:47 -!- Taneb has quit (*.net *.split). 22:04:16 -!- zzo38 has quit (Disconnected by services). 22:04:26 -!- zzo38 has joined. 22:30:06 -!- Taneb has joined. 22:30:30 -!- izabera has joined. 22:30:37 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:45:18 -!- nfd9001 has changed nick to nfd. 22:49:57 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 23:13:56 [[User:Hakerh400/Random JavaScript snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79304&oldid=78602 * Hakerh400 * (-470) Quizzes will be moved to a new article 23:23:05 [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript Quiz]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79305 * Hakerh400 * (+777) Move snippets to a new article 23:23:28 [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79306&oldid=79093 * Hakerh400 * (+53) /* Misc */ 23:26:39 [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript Quiz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79307&oldid=79305 * Hakerh400 * (+1) 23:33:14 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:35:33 [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript Quiz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79308&oldid=79307 * Hakerh400 * (+166) 2020-12-08: 00:11:32 -!- TheLie has joined. 00:22:33 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 00:23:20 -!- sprocklem has joined. 00:47:05 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:50:41 [[1.1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79309&oldid=73305 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) /* Implementations */ list,cat 01:20:24 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:28:34 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:28:58 `? pushmi-pullyu 01:29:00 pushmi-pullyu? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 01:29:07 `? deque 01:29:09 deque? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 01:32:01 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 01:45:20 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:46:05 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 02:10:05 -!- paul2520 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:22:18 -!- paul2520 has joined. 02:43:14 -!- Arcorann has joined. 02:44:10 -!- Arcorann has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:44:37 -!- Arcorann has joined. 02:50:27 -!- zzo38 has joined. 02:52:10 [[Sadako]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79310&oldid=79294 * Tetrapyronia * (-6) 02:54:47 -!- earend1 has joined. 03:35:26 -!- xelxebar_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:35:54 -!- xelxebar has joined. 03:44:09 -!- delta23 has joined. 03:55:42 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 04:05:47 -!- Melvar has joined. 04:13:07 -!- arseniiv has joined. 04:23:32 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:37:01 -!- Melvar has joined. 04:56:13 shachaf: so many islands... 509 now, still missing a few dozen I think 04:56:42 That's a lotta islands. 04:59:28 and they're getting harder to reach too 04:59:52 and there's still a couple of mechanical surprises 05:07:30 -!- LegionMammal978 has joined. 05:08:04 This AoC was pretty fun (somehow, I managed to get #14 on the first leaderboard) 05:09:59 Writing interpreters for BF-like languages (i.e., one character per instruction + simple memory model) was definitely good practice 05:10:32 -!- LegionMammal978 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:47:22 So what shall we call the new virtual machine... HGC for Handheld Game Controller? 05:48:03 . o O ( It should have a 720x348 monochrome display. ) 05:53:33 I would say that this AoC is quite well-ordered so far. It definitely has a basis. 05:55:42 -!- imode has joined. 06:06:54 shachaf: I was looking for a particular island I was playing around on yesterday. I didn't find it :-/ 06:07:29 (though I got sidetracked a bit because I found other ideas while looking) 06:31:28 -!- Arcorann_ has joined. 06:32:43 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:04:05 -!- earend1 has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 07:53:51 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined. 07:54:28 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: ...). 07:54:40 -!- zzo38 has quit (Disconnected by services). 07:54:44 -!- zzo38 has joined. 07:55:56 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:56:02 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23. 08:12:56 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:19:27 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined. 08:19:27 -!- delta23 has quit (Disconnected by services). 08:19:38 -!- LKoen has joined. 08:19:39 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23. 08:36:44 `grWp economics 08:36:46 economics:Economics is just applied numerology. 08:37:30 `learn Economics is the science of winning at zero-sum games. It used to be applied numerology. 08:37:33 Learned 'economic': Economics is the science of winning at zero-sum games. It used to be applied numerology. 08:44:54 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:46:03 -!- delta23 has joined. 08:51:29 -!- zzo38 has joined. 08:52:47 -!- rain1 has joined. 08:54:48 Is there a term in Magic: the Gathering that can refer to both players and objects, in general? They have some things in common, such as counters, possibility to be damaged (although only some objects can be damaged), possibility to be a target, and possibility for permanents to be attached to it. 09:02:46 [[Firstreplace]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79311 * Abyxlrz * (+1163) Created page with "'''Firstreplace''' is an accidental1 [[esoteric programming language]] made by [[User:Abyxlrz|Abyxlrz]]. (1) It is accidental because i was trying to make a interp..." 09:04:12 [[Firstreplace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79312&oldid=79311 * Abyxlrz * (+82) 09:04:28 Huh, they changed the phrasing. 09:04:57 E.g. Shock used to say "target creature or player", and now it says "to any target". 09:05:42 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:06:34 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79313&oldid=79299 * Abyxlrz * (+19) 09:07:26 shachaf: '115.4. Some spells and abilities that refer to damage require “any target,” “another target,” “two targets,” or similar rather than “target [something].” These targets may be creatures, players, or planeswalkers. Other game objects, such as noncreature artifacts or spells, can’t be chosen.' 09:07:56 So the change allows planeswalkers to be targeted as well. 09:08:08 I'm pretty sure planeswalkers could already be targeted. 09:08:22 Hmm, or maybe not. 09:08:26 If you say "creature or player" then planeswalkers are excluded. 09:08:32 Maybe you targeted the player and redirected the damage or something? 09:08:38 There was definitely a way to damage planeswalkers. 09:09:01 [[User:Abyxlrz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79314&oldid=78053 * Abyxlrz * (+17) 09:09:10 Yes: https://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2018/03/goodbye-planeswalker-redirection-rule-mtg-dominaria/ 09:09:15 [[User:Abyxlrz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79315&oldid=79314 * Abyxlrz * (+4) 09:09:32 "The Planeswalker redirection rule was implemented in Lorwyn with the introduction of the first Planeswalker cards. The rule states that you cannot directly target a Planeswalker with damage dealing spells—instead, you must target a player and then redirect the damage from that player to a Planeswalker they control." 09:10:02 Ow, that sounds awkware. 09:10:13 It meant you could decide at resolution time instead of targeting time. 09:10:24 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:10:24 "awkware" is an akward spelling of "awkward". 09:10:37 And also that the spell wouldn't fizzle if the planeswalker was gone at resolution time, I suppose. 09:10:41 yeah apparently they got rid of that 09:10:49 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined. 09:10:58 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 09:10:58 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 09:11:04 So it is a functional change, maybe slightly for the worse, but surely better for the game overall. 09:11:12 I heard they even deprecated regenerate! 09:11:50 Maybe one day you'll be able to play Standard and not have to know a zillion obscure rules to play correctly. 09:13:47 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:16:52 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23. 09:23:13 [[Firstreplace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79316&oldid=79312 * Abyxlrz * (+39) 09:40:29 [[Firstreplace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79317&oldid=79316 * Abyxlrz * (+93) 09:42:28 [[Firstreplace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79318&oldid=79317 * Abyxlrz * (+42) 10:07:40 [[Firstreplace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79319&oldid=79318 * Abyxlrz * (+35) 10:21:52 -!- TheLie has joined. 10:23:12 [[Talk:Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79320&oldid=74940 * Bog'riquet De FerChef * (+205) /* Input\Output format */ new section 10:38:30 [[Dotter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79321 * Sertdfyguhi * (+1342) Created page with "'''Dotter''' is a stack-based esoteric language created by me in 2020. ==Commands== * ..............[ascii]: pushes ascii as a character to the end of the stack...." 10:39:12 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79322&oldid=79313 * Sertdfyguhi * (+13) 10:44:01 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:13:25 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:17:35 -!- delta23 has joined. 11:24:43 Does it mean something that there's a gap between 8 and 9 on the calendar page? I don't think that was there before. 11:25:21 It might just mean that the pretty picture just didn't fit well to 25 lines, I guess. 11:30:07 But it *could* mean there's going to be 3 somehow distinct stages (3*8 = 24), plus a special 25th day thing as usual. 11:33:29 Also, first instance of panic for my solutions this year. Last year had a bunch: http://ix.io/2H8M (theoretically contains a really minor spoiler about what the task of part 2 will be, in case you haven't done it yet) 11:54:36 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 11:58:12 -!- rain1 has joined. 11:59:15 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:19:17 fizzie: maybe we're speeding up as things go downhill 12:25:49 Also did another GraphViz graph for today's example, can't help myself: https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/day08-ex.png (again, one aspect of that could be considered a bit spoilery for what part 2's question is) 12:42:53 downhill -> south 12:54:10 Arcorann_: we don't know where that island is yet 12:55:00 oh 12:55:31 I think I see what you mean. My bad 12:55:43 I saw a hill, never considered that the blue would be water. 12:56:22 I agree. South it is, then. 12:57:55 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:58:13 Unfortunately that deprives me of the reason why we would speed up. 13:07:56 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 13:21:43 I guess it'd be because we got on a bigger plane 13:25:26 -!- user24 has joined. 13:30:21 Oh I skipped the fluff today. "interrupted by the kid sitting next to you" ... I hate it when they do that. 13:31:09 Arcorann_: I wondered about that on day 6. "As your flight approaches the regional airport where you'll switch to a much larger plane --". The previous plane already had 1024 seats, and this one's "much larger"... 13:31:12 (I don't recall it ever happened to me, actually.) 13:31:55 -!- LKoen has joined. 13:32:09 fizzie: fun 13:32:33 But do we know what species we are? I imagine a lot of elves would fit on an A380. 13:33:16 The passports had heights, I don't remember what my input's distribution was. 13:33:36 Oh right. 13:33:44 Heights were basically normal human heights 13:34:02 fizzie: Well, we know the bounds for validity which were human-sized. 13:34:13 So there goes that theory. 13:34:23 Weights too, unfortunately. 13:34:34 So much for that theory. 13:35:10 All the titles have so far been Alliterative Assortments too. 13:35:18 Maybe the new plane is just a large, flat surface. 13:35:19 (Couldn't come up with a synonym for "pair" starting with a.) 13:36:10 I missed the titles too. 13:36:43 alternate... alternation... not quite, but it feels like there should be something 13:37:19 well, alliterative alternation does not sound completely wrong to me 13:39:14 (only mostly wrong) 13:41:50 . o O ( rote repetition ) 14:01:14 -!- Aiso has joined. 14:12:19 -!- delta23 has joined. 14:15:58 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:20:41 " […] The previous plane already had 1024 seats" => no, day 5 twist spec is quite clear that it has somewhat less than 1024 seats, but it indeed turns out to have about 900, so that's only a technical difference 14:21:25 "The passports had heights, I don't remember what my input's distribution was." => doesn't matter we have seen much less than the 900 passports, so there could be 300 humans and 600 kobolds on the plane 14:21:56 the kobolds may be gated to a different security control area, with kobold-sized x-ray machine and kobold-height conveyor belt for the luggage 14:23:12 int-e: I think the phrase you want is "Added Alliterative Appeal", see TVTROPES WARNING https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AddedAlliterativeAppeal 14:23:56 or is it? I guess it's not, that's for a lot of alliteration in the text, it maybe be just https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlliterativeTitle 14:24:05 b_jonas: That's cute, but we wanted a pair. 14:24:27 Using something that *means* "pair" 14:24:40 And that seems to be out of reach, in English at least. 14:25:00 "Alliterative Appeal" is good though. 14:26:22 int-e: Consonance Csomething? 14:26:37 Couple? 14:27:53 Though I'd really want an adjective there, which would be "Consonant Couple" which makes it look like a noun. Oops. 14:30:17 Coding contest consonance, or AOC alliteration 14:31:38 Hmm, I got no reaction to https://esolangs.org/logs/2020-12-08.html#lM *sniff* 14:32:23 also some of you wanted an intcode 14:32:31 you may have the first part of one 14:32:48 Yeah, I know. 14:33:19 Next up: memory and IO. 14:33:23 I hope. 14:33:57 maybe just a stack 14:34:16 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:34:35 A PDA should be powerful enough for AoC. And it even looks similar to a HGC. 14:34:50 err, an HGC 14:36:06 or Abuse of Alliteration 14:36:18 or just Added Alliteration 14:36:56 int-e: a PDA, sure. a stack plus just one numeric register? no. 14:37:11 not unless you get extra registers or access the stack deep enough. 14:38:33 ok wait, I should solve the task first 14:39:46 A stack gives you PDA power... a bit more if the register is an unbounded integer. In fact if you have division with remainder you can maybe even simulate a stack in the register, completing a tape and making it TC? Depends on the details, I guess. 14:40:40 I also imagine there's a conditional jump around... otherwise things will be tricky. 14:41:09 (so enough to implement any desired amount of finite control) 14:44:51 I guess this TC idea hinges on being able to inspect the top stack element without modifying the accumulator, which can either be achieved by adding an additional register, or by adding an swapping operation for the two two stack elements 14:45:32 or by specialized instructions that work on the top stack element instead of the accumulator... but that really feels like an extra register. 15:15:37 Oh I may be wrong about needing a swap, it's really a question of the order of operands of `mod`. Consider `PUSH; PUSH; IMM 2; RMOD` which extracts the bottom bit of the accumulator if `RMOD` divides the top of the stack by the accumulator. So we can branch based on that value and then `POP` the accumulator. 15:16:17 -!- MDude has joined. 15:17:00 `RDIV` can pop a bit off the accumulator-based stack. And `PUSH; ADD; ADD` can shift a bit from the stack into the accumulator. 15:17:00 RDIV`? No such file or directory 15:17:14 Ah. 15:17:28 (Another thing to be wary of.) 15:21:02 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:26:23 -!- nfd has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:27:28 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:54:43 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined. 15:55:16 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:56:10 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:03:47 -!- TheLie has joined. 16:22:57 ok, I admit I totally mispredicted what the thist would be for https://adventofcode.com/2020/day/8 , and my program suffered from that; it also suffered from a stupid unrelated bug though 16:25:14 ok, so what do we call the interpreted language featured in this task? the task doesn't give a name like "Intcode" this time. do we just call it "Handheld halting" from the title of the task until they give a better name? 16:25:58 or just "Handheld" because "halting" is the task, not the language? 16:38:31 does it need a language? 16:38:40 erm, a name 16:40:21 -!- deltaepsilon23 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:40:52 myname: it will, after a few more tasks, yes 16:41:05 it perhaps doesn't need a short name yet, we could wait until the next task 16:41:34 currently it looks like a crappy assembler 16:42:27 of course it's possible that they'll throw this language away and a next task will instead be running programs in an unrelated language 16:43:00 i propose aocembly 17:18:44 -!- earend1 has joined. 17:22:38 I have a feeling they'd've provided a hint if this was to become a running theme this year. 17:26:23 (They did in day 2 part 2, 2019.) 17:28:13 -!- Aiso has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:30:54 I'm also wondering whether everyone just did the obvious O(n^2) part 2, that's basically just n times part 1, because it's definitely not asymptotically optimal, but on the other hand it's perfectly reasonable. 17:48:09 -!- arseniiv has joined. 17:51:18 Oh, this points out some cards actually get worse in a way that can matter, due to not having their text changed: https://www.reddit.com/r/PonzaMTG/comments/83502o/psa_new_planeswalker_redirection_rule_nerfs_some/ 17:51:32 fizzie: yes, I did the obvious quadratic, because there are only 617 instructions in the ROM 17:51:38 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 17:52:00 So did I, though I'm tempted to add an alternative solution as well. 17:53:19 For example, treating black edges as weight 0 and red edges as weight 1, finding the shortest path in the https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/day08-ex.png representation should give the solution in O(n log n) time. 17:53:54 I did skip rerunning the program for the 338 acc instrs though 17:54:18 -!- sftp has joined. 17:57:41 fizzie: I know there's a fast solution, yes. 18:07:25 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:07:47 -!- delta23 has joined. 18:12:46 There are some regular languages that are very easy to express as NFAs but incredibly complicated as regular expressions. What's that about? 18:17:54 -!- sftp has joined. 18:21:56 shachaf: yes, we talked about them recently. search for http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2011-04-25.1871.html in the logs to find it. fizzie: I can't load the https://esolangs.org/logs , is it just me? 504 Gateway Time-out 18:23:35 I got that too. 18:23:36 I can load the wiki 18:23:54 ok, good to know 18:24:20 There's something in the websocket support of the (C++) embedded web server serving the logs; either I'm using it wrong, or it has a bug. 18:24:45 Every now and then it goes into this mode where it just stops responding, and some gdb'ing suggested it's related to the stalker mode websocket stuff. 18:25:05 hmm 18:25:50 I can just restart it, that usually fixes it. 18:26:06 Yep, should be back. 18:26:50 The problem is, it never breaks when I wouldn't have anything better to do than debug it. (Also, I'd need to build a binary with symbols, because "something with websockets" was the closest I could get to by attaching gdb to the binary without them.) 18:31:50 sad 18:41:12 played Heaven’s Vault a bit, looks interesting 18:41:44 and also I played Snake Pass and my fingers are now broken (at least in my imagination) 18:57:41 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 19:02:09 kspalaiologos: hi, what’s new with that hyper-Malbolge of yours? 19:08:05 -!- Aiso has joined. 19:09:57 -!- sftp has quit (Quit: leaving). 19:10:13 -!- sftp has joined. 19:13:05 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:14:10 -!- delta23 has joined. 19:35:17 Snake Pass is awesome 19:38:29 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:44:29 rain1: did you use keyboard or a controller? 19:44:34 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:46:16 I totally liked how even in the first level there are coins to grab and I completely missed where they even are. I’ll probably try to find them the next time. On the second level, I grabbed one or two coins, I think, but missed one blobby thing though 19:46:35 and the sighs Noodle makes are the best 19:48:32 Can't be missing blobby things. 19:49:13 also I wonder if there is any help from a bought gecko in Heaven’s Vault. Would it come with Aliya and find something in some wall cracks or is it just a decoration now 19:49:57 we traded two historical artifacts for it, that would be unfair 19:50:22 xbox 19:51:44 rain1: ah, I’m on a keyboard (and mouse, it uses the left button to go and the right to grip), it’s probably harder though I hope I’ll train my hands after the several next playings 19:54:38 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:55:07 i think you need an analog controller 19:55:21 or at least it makes it better 20:26:55 -!- nfd has joined. 20:41:08 -!- Aiso has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:48:49 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 20:56:07 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:05:49 rain1: yeah it should be more appropriate for that kind of a game 21:06:48 looks cute but too hard 21:48:14 -!- FreeFull has joined. 21:50:53 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:53:42 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 21:55:23 -!- delta23 has joined. 21:59:33 -!- delta23 has quit (Client Quit). 22:19:27 -!- zzo38 has joined. 22:24:05 I don't like the planeswalker redirection rule so I think is good they changed that. However, I don't like the wording "any target" because it uses different phrasing than other targets and makes it not sufficiently general. In my own custom cards I am using "target damageable"; such things as "enchant damageable" are also allowed, and for the purpose of text changing effects (such as overload), "any target" used in that way is treated 22:25:59 It is not quite an answer to my original question, though. 22:26:33 -!- TheLie has joined. 22:26:53 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:27:12 -!- xelxebar has joined. 22:32:02 -!- Aiso has joined. 22:43:34 -!- Aiso has left. 22:47:12 -!- sprocklem has joined. 23:14:46 -!- Arcorann_ has joined. 23:19:36 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:31:38 -!- zzo38 has joined. 23:31:48 I am having some trouble with internet recently 2020-12-09: 00:07:57 -!- FreeFull has quit. 00:28:08 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:37:16 -!- Aiso has joined. 00:42:50 [[Dotter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79323&oldid=79321 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* Hello world! program */ le chat 00:44:04 [[Modulous]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79324&oldid=77819 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) /* 99 bottles of beer */ cats 00:51:53 -!- HackEso has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:51:59 -!- HackEso has joined. 00:53:38 [[Firstreplace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79325&oldid=79319 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+131) /* Interpreter */ Les chats apparatent! 01:03:40 [[LITHP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79326&oldid=35424 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32) stub,,cats,, 01:08:48 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:09:33 -!- Aiso has left. 01:25:34 -!- Arcorann has joined. 01:45:29 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 01:46:25 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:07:49 [[Talk:Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79327&oldid=79320 * Rdebath * (+339) /* Input\Output format */ 02:53:39 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Unl256 * New user account 03:15:56 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:19:45 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: lol rip). 04:42:01 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:55:14 -!- arseniiv has joined. 04:58:41 -!- shinh has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:12:28 [[Finvara]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79328&oldid=79256 * Tetrapyronia * (+0) 05:27:11 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:29:22 -!- pikhq has joined. 05:51:01 hmm, addition [of] chains 05:52:29 more islands trickling in, 512. and another friend that I had not even seen yet 06:00:36 Oh no. 06:00:45 I gotta get back to it. 06:07:58 It's getting hard though... some solutions span more than one island, and I never know whether there's a potential raft from another distant island involved in making progress. 06:09:12 And obviously there's a selection process going on... survival of the fittest puzzles. 06:11:02 I was not expecting this game to have that many islands. 06:11:14 I was going to say "that many puzzles" but many islands aren't really puzzles. 06:11:24 Or at least if they are it's in a very sophisticated way I haven't figured out. 06:11:48 right, there are quite a few islands that basically serve as bridges 06:12:13 or where the puzzle is in reaching the island, not in getting off it 06:13:00 and of course, in some way, the whole world is just one big puzzle. 06:13:35 (though that view makes it hard to explain the precise logic of the 'reset' action. 06:13:38 ) 06:22:53 That action is already hard to explain exactly. 06:23:05 Or, I mean, the behavior is trickier than it seems at first. 06:23:57 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 06:25:36 yeah it really is 06:26:08 Presumably this is an important mechanic in later puzzles. 06:26:09 even locally I'm not 100% sure how it determines the position you end up after a reset. 06:26:24 s/up/up in/ 06:26:27 or at 06:27:22 ugh, that gave me an idea... 06:27:47 ...but I won't say what it is. 06:28:03 just that it is something that I have not tried out 06:40:09 -!- Lymee has joined. 06:40:14 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:40:17 -!- Lymee has changed nick to Lymia. 07:24:42 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:26:21 -!- int-e has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:27:07 -!- int-e has joined. 07:27:32 -!- lambdabot has joined. 07:55:01 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 08:09:48 -!- Arcorann has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:22:12 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:30:36 -!- Arcorann has joined. 09:56:25 -!- NeverBorn has joined. 10:02:21 -!- delta23 has joined. 10:04:08 -!- Arcorann_ has joined. 10:07:18 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 10:07:43 -!- NeverBorn has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:33:16 some ideas sleep quite furiously 10:46:51 Okay, I don't think the gap in the calendar meant anything, it was just a visual thing. Judging from the placement of the 10. 11:08:04 -!- LKoen has joined. 11:31:47 -!- TheLie has joined. 12:27:54 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined. 12:28:03 -!- delta23 has quit (Disconnected by services). 12:28:09 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23. 12:43:30 fizzie: so... this won't be a straightforward journey then? 12:46:27 I sort of have a feeling fiddling with an "open data port" in a plane you're currently flying in may not be the best of ideas. Especially if it involves paperclips and breaking some encryption. (Can you even call that "open"?) 12:48:51 All the other years' calendars have been going in reverse order, with day 1 at the bottom and day 25 at the top. Guess 2020 is a little different. 12:52:52 Looking at https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/time.two.html today was the fastest day 9 by far. 12:56:35 -!- NeverBorn has joined. 13:02:59 Oh I skipped all flavor text today. 13:03:47 And for once, I missed out... paper clips! 13:19:23 [[Brain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79329&oldid=74131 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-250) /* Install */ wikitext 13:20:20 -!- rain1 has joined. 13:24:32 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:26:50 [[Brain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79330&oldid=79329 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+305) /* External Resources */ Add links, give meaningful titles 13:29:39 -!- shikhin has quit (Quit: Quittin'.). 13:31:06 -!- shikhin has joined. 13:35:00 [[Minsky Swap]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79331&oldid=76222 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) /* Syntax and Semantics */ m 13:43:33 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined. 13:45:13 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 13:45:37 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23. 13:53:21 https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/hydra would be better if OOTS hadn't used the exact same joke better 13:54:49 -!- NeverBorn has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:55:59 -!- NeverBorn has joined. 14:42:01 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:48:10 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 14:55:11 -!- NeverBorn has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:29:58 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined. 15:30:09 -!- delta23 has quit (Disconnected by services). 15:30:13 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23. 15:49:56 -!- TheLie has joined. 16:23:37 -!- MDude has joined. 16:49:00 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 17:00:50 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:51:20 -!- user24 has joined. 17:56:00 -!- TheLie has joined. 18:23:02 -!- user24 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:29:01 -!- user24 has joined. 18:43:43 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined. 18:45:09 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 18:57:14 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23. 19:05:34 -!- sprocklem has joined. 19:09:03 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:31:44 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:05:15 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:25:46 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:29:29 [[Stalactite]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79332&oldid=19965 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+88) cats 21:34:13 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:35:31 [[Subskin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79333&oldid=58678 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Examples */ links 21:38:34 [[MISC Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79334&oldid=30476 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) back 21:43:20 [[MISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79335&oldid=64791 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+34) practically oisc 21:54:22 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:56:02 fizzie: actually the task in https://adventofcode.com/2020/day/1 is similar to the task in https://adventofcode.com/2020/day/9 , so at this point I weakly conjecture that there's something of a period of 8 days in the tasks, with empty lines between every 8 lines to enforce that. 21:56:47 interesting 21:57:23 these two tasks are also a bit similar to that optimization task about approximating a large number with a product of small prime factors, though of course these are much easier 21:57:41 I've probably just imagining things though 21:58:08 b_jonas: A period of 8 is what I speculated about too, but the placement of 10 kind of ruins that. 21:58:17 but there is a break between 9 and 10, too 21:58:26 :D 21:58:38 oh yeah... there's a taller gap between 9 and 10. that breaks that idea 21:58:48 you're right 21:59:53 oh, I think the graphics on https://adventofcode.com/2020 is supposed to show your travel itinery on a globe. there are gaps because we're now on a long distance airplane. and you can see tracks drawn for both the short airplane ride and the long one. 22:06:39 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:29:11 -!- TheLie has joined. 22:42:26 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 22:44:06 -!- Arcorann_ has joined. 22:47:33 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 22:58:16 fizzie: I submitted a wrong answer to https://adventofcode.com/2015/day/8 twist and it says "your answer is too high". does this mean I can binary search the answer even for very large problems? 22:59:37 someone tells me that probably no, because you get increasingly larger timeouts 23:00:05 Hmm, I don't know. I don't remember it saying that. 23:00:57 Could be it gives those hints if it's off by an order of magnitude, too. 23:03:19 fizzie: this is for 2015, maybe 2020 doesn't do that 23:32:00 -!- posseidoun has joined. 23:35:52 -!- posseidoun has left. 23:44:58 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 2020-12-10: 00:35:29 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 00:43:22 I don't understand C 00:43:36 Hitting my head on LINK : error LNK2001: unresolved external symbol _DllMainCRTStartup while trying to use MS Detours 00:43:51 Wait no I fixed that 00:44:03 But I can't get /I to work properly so I have this as an #include 00:44:10 #include "vcpkg\\installed\\x64-windows\\include\\detours\\detours.h" 00:47:27 ....how am I magically linking to opengl32.lib? 00:47:34 I didn't install it into this copy of vcpkg 00:47:35 I think 01:45:36 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 01:47:58 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 01:53:56 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:26:39 -!- tromp has joined. 02:35:01 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:36:23 -!- arseniiv has joined. 02:38:47 -!- sebbu has joined. 02:42:13 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:05:18 -!- tromp has joined. 03:19:25 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:53:17 -!- tromp has joined. 04:54:41 -!- zzo38 has joined. 05:09:13 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:25:20 -!- zzo38 has joined. 05:28:37 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:29:38 -!- user3456 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:31:18 -!- user3456 has joined. 05:35:39 -!- heroux has joined. 05:39:18 Once I implemented one feature in Free Hero Mesh to list the menu for examining objects (although it is not yet complete), reveals another thing wrong in the conversion (or the loader, but probably the conversion) that sometimes it duplicates objects when it isn't supposed to do, although some of the duplicated objects actually are in the original, some of them aren't. 05:42:03 -!- zzo38 has quit (Disconnected by services). 05:42:08 -!- zzo38 has joined. 05:45:57 Recently (for the past few days), I have had some trouble with internet. Sometimes it will stop after a while (the time it takes for that to happen varies), but restarting the router helps (although often it will work after a while even if the router is not restarted, but it tends to take longer in that case). Do you know what is the problems? 05:53:07 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:11:06 -!- mich181189 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:11:22 -!- glowcoil has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 06:11:42 -!- glowcoil has joined. 06:11:53 -!- mich181189 has joined. 06:23:01 -!- zzo38 has joined. 06:54:07 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:54:56 -!- Arcorann__ has joined. 06:58:19 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:02:21 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 07:10:32 -!- MDude has joined. 07:25:54 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:35:36 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 07:37:36 -!- head_case has joined. 07:38:33 -!- head_case has left. 08:39:16 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:19:13 -!- user24 has joined. 09:25:24 -!- TheLie has joined. 09:42:05 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 09:42:05 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 09:50:56 -!- LKoen has joined. 10:18:03 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:18:35 -!- tromp has joined. 10:35:44 DNS works? 10:36:14 what problems? bandwith? no connection? 10:36:21 link? 10:36:53 i have problems as well. but its HSDPA, or so i believed 10:38:07 -!- Arcorann has joined. 10:40:26 -!- Arcorann__ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:11:23 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:33:55 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:19:25 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:22:55 -!- Arcorann has joined. 12:53:00 -!- rain1 has joined. 13:27:49 [[Simplified Emmental]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79336&oldid=56009 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+235) interpreter & cats 13:37:57 [[Apple3.14/implementation.ijs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79337&oldid=49025 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20) m 13:38:23 [[Apple3.14]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79338&oldid=66155 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) /* Implementation */ stac 13:51:26 [[ArnoldC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79339&oldid=76885 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17) refimpl 14:38:18 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tubs * New user account 14:43:53 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79340&oldid=79277 * Tubs * (+138) 14:44:16 [[Jot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79341&oldid=72850 * Tubs * (+104) /* External resources */ Barker's website is temporarily unavailable 14:45:07 [[Iota]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79342&oldid=63800 * Tubs * (+104) /* External resources */ Barker's website is temporarily unavailable 14:46:39 [[Zot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79343&oldid=63798 * Tubs * (+112) /* External resources */ Barker's webpage is temporarily unavailable 14:49:07 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:53:53 -!- nakilon has joined. 14:54:16 hello guys, it's good to see there is a chat on this topic 14:56:04 can anyone tell me if there is a language as similar as possible to befunge-93/98 but with the feature of reading and/or popping the value deep inside a stack, not just top 1-2 values? 14:57:06 `welcome nakilon 14:57:11 nakilon: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 14:57:18 [[User:Tubs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79344 * Tubs * (+218) in case you didn't think i was a human 14:57:43 [[User:Tubs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79345&oldid=79344 * Tubs * (+4) 14:58:45 nakilon: Funge-98 famously does have that feature, as a side effect of the y instruction. 14:59:07 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 14:59:15 Oh, and via the stack stack manipulations too, of course. 15:01:53 Specifically, via using N{ first to move the top N values to a new stack, then the u instruction to read/write from the stack stack under the top of the stack stack, and then N} to restore the original top N elements. 15:04:02 98 is complex ( I can't finish my interpreneter implementation 15:04:16 *interpreter 15:07:22 https://github.com/Nakilon/befunge98 15:10:15 I feel like I want a language with most of the 93 (but without self-modification), just few operators from 98 and easier stack addressing; also with removing the 'g' and 'p' it would limit program space to pi/2 sector and there should be long arbitrary-precision arithmetic or using Rational type by default 15:49:46 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 16:06:36 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:14:43 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:54:25 -!- user24 has joined. 18:22:05 `? bombchu 18:22:07 bombchu? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:34:04 -!- MDude has joined. 19:08:11 indeed doesn't seem periodic by 8 days 19:08:52 -!- sprocklem has joined. 19:19:22 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:22:27 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:35:20 -!- LKoen has joined. 19:36:32 -!- tromp has joined. 19:38:46 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:39:11 -!- tromp has joined. 21:02:00 [[EGSHEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79346&oldid=75938 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Syntax & Grammar */ Shouldn't this be 'B'? 21:03:44 [[EGSHEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79347&oldid=79346 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+68) /* 99 Bottles of Beer */ github 21:04:24 [[EGSHEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79348&oldid=79347 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* External resources */ cat 21:05:32 [[Keta]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79349&oldid=75937 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Chain Rules */ m 21:07:45 [[Keta]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79350&oldid=79349 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) This is what GitHub says it stands for 21:10:35 [[StaPLe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79351&oldid=41493 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+327) /* Example Programs */ Add the actual codes 21:15:16 -!- nfd has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:16:42 [[Pizza]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79352&oldid=56231 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) m 21:17:52 [[PythonshellDebugwindow/Vandevelo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79353&oldid=73973 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+205) please delete 21:49:29 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 21:52:53 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:47:37 -!- zzo38 has joined. 22:51:56 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:06:42 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:08:27 -!- Melvar has joined. 23:11:56 -!- Arcorann has joined. 23:16:34 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 2020-12-11: 00:04:27 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 00:12:09 -!- tromp has joined. 00:15:03 -!- xelxebar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:22:56 -!- xelxebar has joined. 00:40:16 [[Bub]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79354&oldid=30822 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) Here be stubs 00:47:11 [[Alphabet letters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79355&oldid=78854 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+94) t 01:47:16 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:47:30 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 02:05:16 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79356&oldid=79269 * Tetrapyronia * (+207) Added Zeno 02:05:47 [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79357&oldid=79270 * Tetrapyronia * (+11) 03:16:28 [[Cerberus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79358 * Tetrapyronia * (+1248) new language :) 03:17:12 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79359&oldid=79356 * Tetrapyronia * (+98) Added Cerberus 03:17:45 [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79360&oldid=79357 * Tetrapyronia * (+30) 03:35:37 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:39:25 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:41:44 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:44:29 -!- arseniiv has joined. 04:48:51 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 04:58:14 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 05:06:10 -!- aaaaaa has joined. 05:06:26 -!- nfd has joined. 05:26:15 Hi all. What ongoing zoom.us CS-confs are interesting? With a bias to esoteric PLs. 05:30:49 -!- imode has joined. 05:34:15 https://sat-smt.in/ started about half an hour ago. 05:36:07 shachaf: yeah 05:36:54 I guess it's not really a conference. 05:37:12 It's very arguably related to #esoterica. 05:37:13 Anyway, what zoom confs do you attend? Wondering 05:37:13 Are you attending? 05:37:49 shachaf: waiting for Armin Biere :) 05:38:00 Aha. 05:38:06 shachaf: I do, this is why I'm asking, maybe there is something interesting as well as this 05:38:36 I'm watching the introductory talk but so far it's all basics. 05:38:37 virtual uni, so to say 05:38:44 shachaf: yes, basics 05:39:33 I don't know that I want to stay awake until 4 watching these talks. 05:40:00 It all seems a bit silly. If you're just watching a video being streamed, it's a worse experience than watching a recording, which you could watch at 2x speed or pause. 05:40:26 Maybe it's all will be uploaded here https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm6e0ZSQt-C6iEhBV6TaEdA 05:40:56 Yes, that's what I expect. 05:41:01 Yeah, but you can ask a question in zoom 05:41:03 I guess the benefit is asking questions in real time or something. 05:41:05 Right. 05:41:25 So maybe that'd be a better format. I guess some conferences do it that way. 05:42:13 Maybe I should read kissat code to have good questions to ask. 05:43:12 Modern SAT solvers are not an easy piece of cake 05:43:29 I read some kissat code before. 05:43:43 I also wrote my own CDCL solver. 05:43:55 shachaf: if so, you can probably dive into kissat... 05:44:05 But maybe not in the next hour. 05:45:24 I guess this channel is just full of people who are into satisfiability? 05:45:44 shachaf: dunno. I like this channel because like both CS and some eso-PLs 05:45:50 satisfied with satisfiability. 05:45:53 it's less formal than other CS channels 05:46:39 What are the neato CS channels? 05:46:57 shachaf: #cs, #algorithms, whatever on reddit 05:47:15 like full of too-seriuous professors 07:05:18 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 07:05:18 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 07:17:05 -!- user24 has joined. 07:39:21 [[Cerberus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79361&oldid=79358 * Tetrapyronia * (-4) 07:59:15 shachaf: Armin Biere starts his presentation on zoom 07:59:20 starting 07:59:47 I see it. 08:00:08 Hmm, what's your native language, if you have one? 08:00:29 huh 08:07:26 . o O ( aren't they all artificial ) 08:08:45 It's only the pattern of saying "X Ys" instead of "X is Ying" that I'm curious about. 08:09:10 shachaf: Russian is. Yes, my English is still horrible... 08:09:32 No, I'm not complaining. 08:10:28 Man, kissat is just really good, huh. 08:11:07 shachaf: sure, Armin is one of the leading experts 08:12:13 It's too bad it doesn't support incremental solving. 08:12:24 Maybe it will in the future, I think it might've said. 08:13:02 MUS is also not supported, AFAIR. 08:13:28 The problem is that scientists' goal is to write solvers for competitions, not for real-world projects :( 08:13:45 So all they lack something 08:14:58 but they source the competition problems from "industrial" sources, which supposedly have real-life relevance? 08:15:10 hmm, sourcing from sources, brilliant 08:15:22 int-e: you're right indeed 08:15:37 hint-e 08:15:40 Are you attending the session? 08:17:32 I have no sense whether SAT/SMT solvers have actual relevance in industry. 08:18:08 -!- rain1 has joined. 08:18:59 shachaf: they do. If you dig into SAT/SMT benchmarks, there are indeed loads of files from real projects... 08:21:21 aaaaaa: Hmm, is MUS important? 08:22:08 shachaf: dunno... 08:22:18 shachaf: but it has some use 08:22:25 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:24:12 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:39:24 Why does this take it to NEXPTIME? 08:39:52 `? mus 08:39:53 mus? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 08:42:15 I think it stands for "Minimally Unsatisfiable Subformulas". 08:42:34 Oh, a refinement of unsatisfiable cores. 08:44:00 They're directly connected to minimal counterexamples, e.g. for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadwiger%E2%80%93Nelson_problem 08:46:05 one of the citations there is: 'Heule, Marijn J.H. (2018), Computing Small Unit-Distance Graphs with Chromatic Number 5'... who is another big name in SAT solving. 08:47:00 And that effort was all about taking a small-ish counterexample and minimizing it through SAT solving and extraction of unsatisfiable cores, iteratively. 08:47:34 (That's without reading the paper, just from what I saw in the corresponding Polymath forum threads.) 08:49:01 But also in practice you may benefit a lot from narrowing down contradictions (which may be programming errors) to a smaller set of constraints. 08:50:13 -!- sprocklem has joined. 09:06:31 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:40:28 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:56:43 -!- LKoen has joined. 12:35:37 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Quit: leaving). 13:07:46 [[Bet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79362&oldid=76786 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) m 13:10:07 [[Zeno]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79363&oldid=58231 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) /* See Also */ cats 13:18:00 shachaf: I don't think the difference here is video stream vs in person. the same is basically true for all the first-year basic theoretical classes that CS students got. as there were too many students, the professors didn't want to stop for any particular student's questions, so the classes were effectively non-interactive. we mathematicians fared much better even in first year with the small group: 13:18:06 back then there were 50 of us as first year together, about 25 active as third year, 13:19:11 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 13:19:14 and about 25 for the later specialized MsC classes which were attended by half of the students in weighted average (that is, there are more than twice as many classes as students take, but you generally take the more popular ones) but also taught in a period of two years instead of one year like the basic classes. 13:19:27 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25381325 13:21:18 the lower record was a logic class about model theory where only two of us plus a professor were in the classroom every week. a few years later the mathematicians grew to about twice that size, which is qualitatively worse because then in the first year median professors started to have a difficulty remembering each student individually. but even then it's much better than the CS students with their 600 13:21:24 first years and the electric engineers with their 300 first years. 13:23:19 [[DIVCON]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79364&oldid=75904 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3) /* Instruction list */ m 13:23:36 [[DIVCON]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79365&oldid=79364 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Official implementation */ Deadlink 13:23:49 I do admit that remote communication still makes everything worse, I'm glad I didn't have to go to university during something like this, 13:24:06 [[Cerberus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79366&oldid=79361 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+154) catsh 13:25:07 and the way I have to work from home now sucks exactly because the communications at this job sucks, there was a lot of information that I could only get in person as corridor rumors. 13:26:22 " I guess this channel is just full of people who are into satisfiability?" => yes, somehow. at least if three or four regulars count as "full of" 13:26:56 -!- delta23 has joined. 13:27:31 It's only the pattern of saying "X Ys" instead of "X is Ying" that I'm curious about.” interesting, I don't remember you ever complained about how I use English tenses, despite that I often use them at random 13:27:48 I still don't really understand how they're supposed to work 13:28:04 fungot: tell us something random 13:28:05 int-e: the great merit of doing this is to be given to structural measures for fleets that needed to be registered on a register on a friday morning, with mr linkohr' s report is very supportive indeed and this is the normalisation process! if we want to use my three minutes' speaking time in this extremely important work of promoting equality of rights and the destruction took place just yesterday in luxembourg constitute a st 13:35:11 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Quit: quit). 13:46:14 fungot: What is a fire and why does it – how do you say – burn? 13:46:15 b_jonas: mr president, the safi report was on the eu side because we believe that the committee responsible was able to have olaf's report so that there can only be obtained once the objectives of the common position also takes into consideration the fact that, even from these references, that the intergovernmental conference is quite intolerable, particularly for women. 13:48:04 fungot: Open up your eyes, see the world from where I stand: me among the mighty, you caged at my command. 13:48:04 b_jonas: given that we have not been matched by action. the european council launched two action plans. i should like to illustrate this alleged change that leon brittan went to present a communication on development policy, to quote the text itself, putting it into franchising and other things. 13:52:38 -!- LKoen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:53:15 -!- LKoen has joined. 14:19:07 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:28:40 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:34:25 `? fire 14:34:27 Fire, fire, everywhere, nor any drop to drink. 14:42:49 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:49:18 -!- LKoen has joined. 15:01:40 > In Funge-98 stringmode, spaces are treated "SGML-style"; that is, when any contiguous series of spaces is processed, it only takes one tick and pushes one space onto the stack. 15:01:43 :1:23: error: :1:23: error: parse error on input ‘,’ 15:01:51 where can I read what the "SGML" is? 15:04:10 Have you tried https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SGML 15:07:27 I don't see anything about collapsing space character there ( 15:12:59 nakilon: wait, why would befunge do that? 15:13:50 I mean in string mode, which is for embedding literals efficienctly 15:14:17 for normal code it's ok to do that 15:14:28 /shrug 15:40:09 -!- delta23 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:47:27 so I've put my ideas together here: https://github.com/Nakilon/rasel -- not decided yet is if there should be still one stack or maybe two; gonna figure that out in practice 15:51:06 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 16:00:22 -!- zzo38 has joined. 16:10:40 b_jonas: It's to make wrapping in stringmode well-defined. 16:11:04 In Befunge-93, you just got as many spaces as there were, because the playfield was a 80x25 bounded rectangle. 16:12:19 At least that's what I've always assumed was the primary reason. 16:12:46 fizzie: I see 16:13:17 that might make some sense 16:18:36 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:40:39 there's actually a 2d language (with only 2d code, no 2d data or self-modifying code, sort of like Piet) that I sort of might want to make, but I couldn't figure out how it should work yet 16:50:20 fungot, when have most of the Queen's Guards in London been replaced by robots? 16:50:20 b_jonas: madam president, i voted for this report, but also of our work to provide an incentive for member states to eliminate the current legal position and removes the option of being sentenced in countries that have also been discovered in addition to guaranteeing a high standard. moreover, we should like to remind you that the european union 16:58:16 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:01:23 -!- MDude has joined. 17:13:26 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:17:45 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:18:05 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:27:51 -!- myname has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 17:29:34 -!- myname has joined. 17:33:05 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:44:22 this looks like it could be solved by a modification of my https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=1008395 game of life ran by unpack function, but that would be more difficult than a straightforward solution, so I won't try. 17:45:43 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:55:07 That reminded me, updated https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/time.two.html -- looks like today was in line with previous years, unlike the previous two days. Maybe the audience is less familiar with cellular automatatatons than they are with other things. 18:00:21 also, at least from these days, it looks like they aren't trying to give interesting algorithmic problems, instead they give you coding programs you don't have to think about how to solve because you can just implement them as described. the APL and other array programmer guys probably like it. 18:05:12 what about float numbers in Befunge? 18:05:31 are they not supported? 18:10:24 There's a fingerprint for that. 18:10:38 Or two, actually: FPSP and FPDP. 18:11:15 http://rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#FPSP & http://rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#FPDP -- they're identical except for single vs. double precision. 18:12:27 thanks 18:13:00 looks like I had no clue about fingerprints 18:13:13 -!- adu has joined. 18:13:22 fungot: Which fingerprints do you use? 18:13:22 fizzie: mr celli, with regard to its future neighbours. this is what everyone wants. 18:14:03 The answer is STRN, FILE, FING, SOCK, REXP, TOYS and SUBR, though some only very marginally. 18:14:09 (fungot is written in Funge-98.) 18:14:10 fizzie: mr president, poor compliance with environmental legislation. the commission and others, on the issue of taxation referred to by lord bethell and the repression of the mountain people of vietnam. these extremely secret documents give us a way out. at the last minute and trying to guide us through the media, lays the foundations for a stable euro. i believe that the definition of a safe roll-over into the new objective 2 18:37:29 what? IRC bot in funge?! 18:38:00 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:39:01 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:42:57 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 18:43:36 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 18:44:51 nakilon: yes, fungot is written in befunge. 18:44:51 b_jonas: mr president, all of which are controlled by multinationals and that politics is a job for the large countries. this takes the form of development. i sincerely hope that this clarifies the issue. 18:45:30 cool 18:46:06 fungot: face it, your majesty. odds are, your curious offspring will befriend an surface dweller or mortal or outsider from the nation you consider your enemy, no matter how much you forbid them. you'd better prepare for it, rather than delude yourself that your authority can avoid it. 18:46:06 b_jonas: mr president-in-office, i do personally feel that the distribution of seats in the european commission supports parliament' s secretary-general and the deputy secretary-general of the council says, with dry eyes, on fisheries, but concerns above all the council, commissioner, i represent the italian pensioners' party membership card in order to reduce the democratic deficit, but constitution stripping of this kind must 18:47:14 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:56:52 -!- user24 has joined. 18:58:07 this one took a lot of time to solve. the point to take away for me is this: either stick to nice medium-long identifiers like I use in programs that I want others to see, or work on figuring out how to use short identifiers in a way that I don't end up confusing myself, using the same name for multiple things, using different names for the same thing, referring to the wrong variable, etc. 18:58:46 I used to write programs with short identifiers, but that was ages ago, and I apparently forgot the trick, so for programs that use a lot of different variables I mess up 19:10:57 You can add comments if that can help to explain what a variable is for 19:13:11 zzo38: that only helps in long programs. short variable names are for short programs that I write once then forget about them, like for AoC and all the short programs I write for one-off tasks 19:13:25 the problem here is that I confuse the variables even as I write those short programs 19:13:47 I don't remember them half an hour after I write the code 19:14:03 can't predict them or understand them, unlike the medium-long ones that I'm used to 19:14:24 perhaps it's just lack of practice, perhaps I should just not use a short variable name scheme at all 19:14:50 -!- TheLie has joined. 19:49:21 -!- imode has joined. 20:13:31 -!- earend1 has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 20:30:11 I have asked about rule 305.9 on rec.games.trading-cards.misc.rules, and have gotten a few replies, but they only say that rule 305.9 is meant to clarify that a land cannot be cast even if it has another type. However, I have failed to find any rule that specifically says that a land cannot be cast if some effect says to cast that card. 20:49:29 zzo38: ah, this is about the double-faced land things again. I'll have to check the rules if they patched the oversight with them. 20:49:55 when the next rules version comes out, or is it already out? 20:55:22 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 20:56:43 b_jonas: I'm not complaining! 20:59:28 [[Nors]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79367&oldid=50976 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+111) links +++ cats 21:01:21 [[Nors]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79368&oldid=79367 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) 2007 21:01:29 [[Nors]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79369&oldid=79368 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) dammit 21:02:03 I don't know. I they are, I will download it. However, they do write about them before the new rules are published, usually 21:02:41 [[Implieses]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79370&oldid=50995 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+123) Append docile ocelots to the page 21:06:12 ^source 21:06:12 https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98 21:06:14 nakilon: ^ 21:09:45 omg 21:10:54 -!- earend1 has joined. 21:15:37 fizzie is author here? 21:26:31 have a pull request https://github.com/fis/fungot/pull/1 21:26:31 nakilon: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, one thing must be clear: we cannot blow the case out of all proportion to the fishing opportunities and the fight for windmills is one where a german would have faced prosecution. so the combined efforts of the member states, of which i have just heard the commissioner speak. a fine, resolute speech after the speech by the commissioner. 21:38:40 Clicked the button. 21:40:01 oh it's you ..D 21:40:03 thanks 21:48:40 b_jonas I use such rules: 1) one char long variable name should only be used when it's standard, like i, j, k for indexes, n for "number of somethings", etc. 2) if I append "s" to it (like is, js, ks, ns) it means an array of them 3) the "_" variable name for one time usage 21:49:01 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 21:49:26 *indices 21:51:14 also could be "t" instead of "_" 21:55:27 -!- adu has joined. 21:56:18 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:57:06 very haskelly 21:57:21 except the haskellers use single letter names for everything because it makes them feel like they're doing math 21:59:02 Go-ers use a lot of single-letter names too, though I'm not sure why. It's a cultural thing. 22:11:39 fizzie I feel like now that source code is highlighted 22:12:11 no very correct though, since it's hard to see that p and g between " are text, not instructions 22:14:17 Mm, well, it's a hard problem. It doesn't seem to have highlighted the main source file, either. 22:15:33 Funnily enough, fungot does not use very much self-modifying code. If memory serves, I successfully ran it on an AOT compiler once. 22:15:34 fizzie: mr president, you mentioned the hague convention of 1996 which, thankfully, was taken up with the arrogance of the world. the death penalty and the affirmation of the european institutions to put the extension of the mandate of the auto/ oil package which includes a visit to central america at the wto. 22:17:10 one "g" can easily be a part of horizontal string and an instruction from some vertical direction 22:17:32 same for "v" 22:17:55 Oh, I guess that was a caching issue, fungot.b98 is highlighted now that I reloaded it. 22:17:56 fizzie: mr president, i too had not intended the interpretation which has been followed here since the santini report. or if we have agreed at community level in the commission, mrs de palacio, of the type involved, specialized agriculture using a labour force which is in danger and that it will also provide a guarantee of industrial feasibility, respecting the financial interests of the consumer in this modern age demands. in 22:18:18 It doesn't understand a-f as numeric either, guess it's optimized for '93. 22:19:02 Well, at least it looks festive, which is appropriate for the season. 22:35:07 is Chris Pressey in this channel? 22:36:01 Sometimes, but not since September this year. 22:36:51 s/September/October/ 22:36:57 (What's wrong with my log-rsync?) 22:40:24 (Oh, the remote command it uses had changed from `rsync --server --sender -vlogDtpre.iLsfxC` to `rsync --server --sender -vlogDtpre.iLsfxCIvu` and I had made the key very picky in what can be done with it.) 22:42:37 -!- user24 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:20:56 -!- Arcorann has joined. 23:25:35 -!- sprocklem has joined. 23:27:10 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 23:31:56 nakilon: yes, the one time usage variables starting with underscore are easy, because I only have to write them once so it doesn't really matter what I name them. but already with an s suffix there's a problem: does s stand for sequence/array or string? how do I call the other? if I use v for arrays, then how do I abbreviate value? I just keep getting myself confused. 23:32:20 I should probably just stick to longer names, it doesn't hurt that much to use them 23:32:49 when I mean string I add "str" 23:33:38 k, v for key and value when iterating over associating arrays, so I'll never call an array v 23:33:51 *associative 23:33:57 if I try to use one-two-three letter variable names, there are just too many words that abbreviate to the common letters like s n d whatever, and oddly v too 23:35:03 if I mean array sometimes "array" is exactly how I name that var ) 23:35:15 fizzie: I don't find that too strange. befunge doesn't force you to use self-modifying code for anything, it's not like you have to write indexes or anything into character cells, in fact it doesn't even provide good tools to write numbers to code, at most you can write booleans easily. not using self-modifying code is just the easiest way to write befunge. 23:36:13 Well, true. But it's sort of a signature move for the language. 23:36:17 also sometimes I run into conflicts with the short keywords: in particular, I know I must not call an input file handle `if`, because that's a keyword 23:36:44 (The admin ^reload and ^code commands of course do self-modify, but that's kind of special.) 23:37:30 You can write numbers to code very easily in Funge-98, you just prepend the number with ' 23:37:58 fizzie: oh, there is such a primitive? let me see 23:39:10 It's called the "one-shot stringmode". 23:39:33 nice 23:39:44 are the cells single bytes? 23:39:49 in Ruby 1.8 you could write ?a and that was a number corresponding to ascii a code 23:39:59 No, they're arbitrary integers, usually 32-bit signed ones. 23:40:02 then it changed so it's "a" 23:40:05 oh nice 23:40:10 so they're the same type as on the stack 23:40:12 (1 char long string) 23:40:30 yes, that sounds like you can write self-modifying code (unless of course you want multi-threaded or otherwise reentrant code) 23:40:42 it could be hard to optimize of course 23:42:04 you'd need something like qemu that tracks which cells are compiled and what it has to recompile at every store, but qemu can do that efficiently because programs optimized for normal cpus already know that they shouldn't write and execute from the same page too much, because it can be very slow 23:42:29 doing it at a granularity smaller than pages would be rather inefficient 23:42:35 I think gForth has that character literal syntax too. 23:42:38 `forth 'a . 23:42:39 97 23:42:56 I think it's sort of uncommon though. 23:42:57 fizzie: and so do some lisps, though I think the prefix is two characters there 23:43:22 Scheme has #\x. 23:43:57 (In line with various other things beginning with #, like #t and #f for the booleans.) 23:45:10 fizzie: yes. I would actually like to see a convention where the octotrophe serves as eitehr a comment marker if there's a space before it, or a rare token suffix if there's no space before it, but it looks like the only language that does that is K the apl-like 23:45:38 it would work because it's already a convention that there's always whitespace (or the beginning of the file) before a comment marker 23:46:14 so this would effectively save one of the precious 33 ascii punctuation 23:50:44 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 2020-12-12: 00:03:31 -!- earend1 has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 00:38:36 [[Mineso]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79371&oldid=72565 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-11) eso style 00:40:17 [[Mineso]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79372&oldid=79371 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* External resources */ deadlink, style 00:41:54 [[Template talk:Cn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79373&oldid=62043 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+163) /* Why does the template link to xkcd's comic Wikipedian Protester? */ reply 00:46:42 -!- MDude has joined. 01:03:11 -!- adu has joined. 01:46:58 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 01:47:34 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:49:48 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79374&oldid=79340 * Unl256 * (+208) /* Introductions */ 01:55:16 [[Tiangou]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79375 * Tetrapyronia * (+1084) Created page with "'''Tiangou''' is a derivative and wimpmode of [[Cerberus]]. It only has 1 line, which is a list of commands separated by spaces. All the commands correspond to one in Cerberus..." 01:57:09 [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79376&oldid=79360 * Tetrapyronia * (+28) 01:58:47 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79377&oldid=79359 * Tetrapyronia * (+34) Added Tiangou 01:59:50 Bluh. VS Code's git integration certainly isn't philosophically aligned with good commit messages: it's a single-line textbox with no support for the recommendations about line widths and such. 02:00:41 https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/85721 "Most people don't really want a full editor taking away workbench space. They just want to type a message and move on." 02:30:50 -!- aaaaaa has joined. 03:16:41 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 03:17:21 -!- adu has joined. 04:12:08 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Scientificworld * New user account 04:39:46 shachaf: sleepy? :) 04:40:11 aaaaaa: I stayed up until 5 last night. 04:40:22 I'm not sure I should actually be attending. 04:40:36 It might make more sense to watch videos. 04:41:17 yeah, this is sensible 04:50:02 -!- arseniiv has joined. 04:54:15 I don't like videos at all. What is the sense to watch how someone download something, installs, etc. 04:55:18 Surely, video is the right format for cook or guitar lessons 04:55:43 But not for CS or math or programming 04:57:31 Actually even for cooking and guitar lessons it seems more like a supplementary thing... you get to see how it's done, but there's still a lot of information that can be condensed into text and a few selected images. 04:59:31 I absolutely agree with the sentiment, of course. Videos are hard to bookmark and hard to skim for relevant information. 05:17:27 Oh and they're hard to annotate, too. 05:18:35 math videos may be useful too, but I agree with int-e on for what extent 05:20:15 like, showing low-dimensional geometric or topologic things and visualizations of many more concepts and something like that 05:20:16 I suppose you can treat them as lectures. 05:20:48 Meaning, something that makes it easier to hold your attention compared to reading a bunch of notes. 05:21:00 yeah 05:21:58 but notes usually don’t have animation so in several cases you need to know how to animate in your head, and some don’t seem to be lucky to pick that automatically 05:22:00 Maybe even take notes along the way so you have a reference. This is all theory though... 05:22:28 notes are essential too, I think the same 05:23:25 I note how I forget books for which I didn’t practice on paper for some extent 05:23:26 shachaf: how's your hiding spot? 05:23:39 No more hiding since last time. 05:24:02 no more island hopping either I guess 05:24:44 Hmm, the AoC solvers are slowing down. 05:25:33 almost 11 minutes for the 100th to reach the second part 05:26:41 What is AoC? 05:26:46 Advent of Code. 05:28:15 Axiom of Choice. 05:28:51 Area of Concern. 05:29:32 Anarchy of Confusion 05:29:53 Appearance of Competence 05:30:20 Absence of Confidence 05:30:38 https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/AOC 05:34:05 `coins 05:34:07 ​goldbuntucoin barandcoin zetalitzcoin waicoin cakenemonkecoin maticoin ble-2dcoin xsamcoin burrocoin raczcoin sepaitcoin pingcoin sqrcoin stecoin eyecoin spaceapiflemargfallercoin ozocoin unlcoin wilson-texcoin zadicoin 05:35:08 "eyecoin" will attract Apple's ire for sure. 05:35:40 aaaaaa: http://adventofrealizingicantread.com 05:36:20 did you just 05:36:32 who owns that lmao. 05:36:55 hmm Creation Date: 2019-12-12T15:19:41Z 05:37:32 and why does it forward to day 8 05:37:52 where the hell did it come from. 05:38:04 Don't know, it was posted in another channel a while back 05:38:18 ##adventofcode, actually 05:38:28 baahahahahahaha. 05:38:32 I produced so many bugs yesterday it was embarrassing 05:38:42 today went way more smoothly 05:39:20 (yesterday I also had a nice list based solution for part 1, which really didn't generalize nicely for part 2) 05:39:31 (which really annoyed me quite a bit) 05:39:40 I registered play.contact the other day. 05:39:51 why? 05:40:01 To play Contact. 05:40:19 The current implementation is a very rough proof of concept I wrote years ago. 05:40:33 And no one plays it anymore. 05:41:09 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_(video_game) <-- not this then I suppose 05:41:28 No, it's http://mrwright.name/stuff/contact.txt 05:41:41 Except with a program instead of IRC. 05:42:07 I should write up rules for my variant. 05:43:40 I wonder who this human is. 05:44:10 "destabilize"... OW. 06:20:50 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 06:23:53 Finally, now I managed to get level 45 of the SANDY1 puzzle set to be initialized correctly. (Level 21 doesn't work; it results in a "type mismatch" error, due to a mistake in the level data itself. I am unlikely to fix this; the level designer should fix this. This is because many of the Switches have a Misc1 value of $Hero, and it is supposed to be a number.) 06:30:57 Do you like this? 07:04:32 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 07:21:47 -!- user24 has joined. 07:32:52 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79378&oldid=79374 * Scientificworld * (+160) 07:33:15 [[Md5sha1fuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79379 * Scientificworld * (+921) Created page with "'''Md5sha1fuck''' is an esolang invented by [[User:Scientificworld]]. ==Theory== Connect the md5 value and the sha1 value of the string together, detect all the characters o..." 07:35:48 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79380&oldid=79322 * Scientificworld * (+18) /* M */ 07:41:03 -!- user24 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:41:14 [[User:Scientificworld]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79381 * Scientificworld * (+28) Meow~~ 07:42:22 -!- user24 has joined. 07:43:27 [[User talk:Scientificworld]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79382 * Scientificworld * (+35) Meow~~ 07:57:57 Why does Hero Mesh have both Busy and UserSignal, even though they do the same thing? 08:22:15 -!- rain1 has joined. 08:44:46 hell 08:44:49 hello* 08:52:42 -!- delta23 has joined. 09:05:06 hello 09:30:10 [[SCAB computer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79383&oldid=68721 * Mscibett * (-3) 09:31:54 [[TOGA computer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79384&oldid=68884 * Mscibett * (-4) 10:14:39 -!- LKoen has joined. 10:32:31 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:39:52 -!- atslash has joined. 10:50:51 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 11:33:36 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:54:34 -!- delta23 has joined. 12:15:14 I do like turtle graphics, but there isn't really anything particularly *puzzling* about it, is there? 12:15:56 Is that how you perceive today's AoC? Hmm. 12:16:06 Actually I was annoyed by the nomenclature in part 2. 12:16:18 You don't think waypoints should move? 12:16:25 As in, be relative. 12:16:29 I don't think it should be called a waypoint then. 12:16:51 so yes. 12:20:39 I tried out VS Code's Go extension for the first time for today's puzzle, and it's insisting that the `day12` package I added doesn't exist in the squiggly-line diagnostics of the file where all the days get imported, but from the terminal it works just fine, so something's off there. 12:21:31 -!- earend1 has joined. 12:23:22 It's bound to be some common but unnecessary convention. 12:24:10 Restarting the silly thing fixed it, which I kind of expected. 12:24:23 So I think some sort of a cache, but couldn't find any explicit action to refresh it. 12:26:16 Also still can't get over that git commit message thing. But the parts that do work just somehow feel more modern than Emacsing it (plus I just couldn't bear figuring out how to set up gopls and Emacs lsp-mode). 12:26:24 vs code annoys me, it's too popular for something build on quicksand, I mean, Electron 12:26:33 *built 12:27:15 It does seem to be very popular, yes. 12:27:22 I also have to think of 100% CPU usage for a blinking cursor, though I understand they fixed that fairly quickly. 12:28:19 Oh, another positive: the diff view in the source control integration is nicer than Magit's. 12:30:09 But I'm still doing commit from the integrated terminal, which starts up Emacs for editing the commit message, which feels fairly silly. Saw on the Internet that people did have settings where you could get a new VS Code tab as the commit message editor, but I'd only want that when inside VS Code, and I don't think I can easily get that. 12:31:06 Well, maybe with some alias specific to the shell in that terminal, which passes the settings with -c. 12:50:59 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:54:09 emacs inside a shell inside another IDE... sounds fun 12:55:13 I use vim for commit messages, somehow. Mostly because I don't expect to use any advanced editing capabilities and vim still starts up more quickly. 12:55:50 Though maybe by now hardware is fast enough that it doesn't really matter. 10 years ago it still mattered. 12:56:28 But I'm a creature of habits. 12:58:19 I used to use Vim for that too, for a long time. 12:58:49 Then as part of setting up emacsclient and $EDITOR and whatnot, that accidentally got changed too, and I just let it be. 13:15:39 [[Tiangou]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79385&oldid=79375 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+153) cats, hdr, link 13:17:40 [[Cerberus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79386&oldid=79366 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Example Program: Truth-machine */ shtack 13:27:01 -!- arseniiv has quit (Quit: gone too far). 13:48:11 [[Md5sha1fuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79387&oldid=79379 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+88) cats 13:48:48 "but notes usually don’t have animation" => these days we have HTML (and all those computer algebra software worksheet software too), you can embed anything, even animation if it's helpful, or hyperlinks to other resources. such a useful invention. 13:49:10 I don't see why "animate in hour head" is useful 13:50:15 `? aoc 13:50:19 Advent of Code (AoC) is a series of programming puzzles that some regulars enjoy, found at "https://adventofcode.com/2020/about". 13:50:25 aaaaaa: ^ 13:56:12 The HGC has not returned... I'm beginning to think that there just isn't a thematic virtual machine this time. 13:59:17 We're almost halfway through, I think that's getting quite likely. 13:59:35 -!- dionys has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:04:48 Maybe there were complaints about tasks reusing code from previous days instead of starting from scratch. 14:05:05 * int-e is speculating. 14:05:10 * int-e likes speculating. 14:05:31 shachaf: ^^this may interest you, I've found something I like. 14:11:06 -!- dionys has joined. 14:16:07 Here's a great VS Code + gopls behavior: I get "could not import" errors for (new-ish) packages inside the current module, but if I either open or close an editor window that has the `go.mod` file open, the problems go away. Keeping it open doesn't help: I have to either open or close an editor tab with the file. 14:16:12 Too much magic, that's what I say. 14:29:38 "could not import io (no package for import io)" this is getting ridiculous. 14:30:33 Don't know whether to blame gopls (it's in alpha) or VS Code (you called it quicksand). 14:49:06 -!- TheLie has joined. 15:08:24 coming up with docs and tests is hard _-- at least while I'm just starting 15:08:49 spent the whole day on one instruction with a single test 15:09:00 complex test though 15:09:19 that discovered I had a bug 15:18:04 -!- MDude has joined. 15:31:25 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:35:29 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined. 15:36:05 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:36:13 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23. 15:46:07 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:53:39 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79388&oldid=79380 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) [[Cerberus]], [[Tiangou]] 16:08:29 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:51:15 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:47:32 [[ASCII]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79389&oldid=75641 * Lebster * (+783) added hex column 17:48:39 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 17:50:53 [[Rogex]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79390&oldid=70976 * Lebster * (-4) lowercase (doh!) 18:00:39 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:52:47 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:56:56 -!- catern has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:58:16 -!- ornxka has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:59:05 -!- catern has joined. 18:59:10 -!- ornxka has joined. 19:02:10 [[Th]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79391&oldid=32447 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+16) /* Addition */ cates 19:04:43 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Quit: leaving). 19:07:53 -!- imode has joined. 19:21:18 -!- earend1 has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 19:58:54 int-e: I thought you liked many things, and only this was an exception. 20:05:59 this is awful 20:21:55 -!- sprocklem has joined. 22:12:54 -!- NeverBorn has joined. 22:20:25 -!- NeverBorn has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:45:45 -!- TheLie has joined. 22:45:51 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:54:44 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 23:28:28 -!- Arcorann has joined. 23:49:38 -!- nfd has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 2020-12-13: 00:37:29 -!- nfd has joined. 00:37:45 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:42:47 -!- nfd has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:49:22 Did days 1-9 of 2018 to get a little bit more context. Honestly they're not that dissimilar from this year, so I'm thinking 2019 was just very #esoteric-audience-appropriate year. 01:00:59 I could not continue 2019 in Befunge https://github.com/Nakilon/adventofcode-befunge 01:01:19 because the next task demanded dances with 'g' and 'p' 01:02:14 that's why I finally started making my language and I'll continue solving 2019 in it 01:02:57 I think we discussed how all those people who do the "every day a new language" challenge might've been a bit miffed about the whole Intcode thing. 01:24:59 -!- nfd has joined. 01:30:05 -!- nfd has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:42:43 oh nice! https://adventofcode.com/2020 so the ship is now moving east and slightly north so day 13 will be above day 12 on the world map 01:45:54 Yeah, could be we're filling all the gaps. 01:48:53 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 01:49:16 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:49:19 also I managed to implement day 12 original the right way, so it was trival to add the twist for once 01:50:10 As another random observation, there's been no non-numeric answers so far. 01:51:15 Hmm, wonder what the error message is for non-numeric wrong answers. Presumably not higher/lower, at least. 02:19:54 AoC answer is always numeric 02:20:05 *almost always 02:20:39 Something like 2018 day 7 is alphabetical 02:21:43 And there've been a couple of times where we had to read out ASCII-art text 02:22:39 -!- nfd has joined. 02:25:09 [[User:UltimateProGrammer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79392&oldid=72591 * UltimateProGrammer * (-183) Update to not be dumb 02:25:50 Days 8 and 11 of 2019, and days 2, 7 and 10 of the ten first days of 2018 involved non-numeric answers. 02:26:42 I'd count ascii-art numbers as numeric, but ascii-art text is clearly alphabetical. 02:38:22 -!- nfd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:59:39 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 05:14:44 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 05:18:33 `? ꙮ 05:18:36 ​ꙮ is the official Unicode character of #esoteric. 05:18:39 -!- aaaaaa has joined. 05:18:45 `? limerick 05:18:47 A limerick is a verse with two left metrical feet and three right metrical feet. 05:19:08 `' ꙮ 05:19:08 No output. 05:20:42 `' 1130 05:20:42 1130) A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ê™®s, / But my poetry's alphanumeric." 05:20:50 uh-oh, what happened there 05:21:02 `hurl quotes 05:21:03 File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository. 05:21:08 `hurl ../quotes 05:21:10 https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/quotes 05:25:42 `` cd ..; hg revert -r d3ee6de4b493 quotes 05:25:43 abort: could not lock working directory of /hackenv: Read-only file system 05:26:05 `? revert 05:26:07 ​`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See . It is a builtin command so cannot be called from other commands. 05:26:18 well, that's too coarse 05:27:38 anyway, somebody used `fetch off channel in an attempt to (apparently) restore some old quote they missed and remove some others, but also completely destroyed the utf-8 in there 05:28:29 `' 1248 05:28:30 1247) I was watching a pair of otters, and somehow the name "Harry P. Otter" hasn't left my brain since. 05:28:50 `' 1240 05:28:51 1239) hppavilion1: there's not much point in `addquoting an `addquote unless the person who added it was somehow significant, or there's interesting context because you can tell it was added from the fact that it's there 05:29:40 -!- adu has joined. 05:30:47 `fetch ../quotes https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/raw-file/d3ee6de4b493/quotes 05:30:48 2020-12-13 05:30:47 URL:https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/raw-file/d3ee6de4b493/quotes [161313/161313] -> "/hackenv/quotes" [1] 05:32:02 `' ꙮ 05:32:04 1125) A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric." 05:32:13 `' 1240 05:32:14 1240) I was watching a pair of otters, and somehow the name "Harry P. Otter" hasn't left my brain since. 05:33:02 fizzie: the offending commit is https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/rev/369cb8f8fd16 is this what using the web editor looks like? 05:36:33 ...and it went unnoticed for over 2 months... 05:37:47 user3456: See above... I don't know what your intentions were in that change, but the result was really messed up. 05:38:12 `? remember 05:38:13 remember? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 05:38:29 `? addquote 05:38:30 addquote? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 05:39:05 No entry, hmm. 05:40:06 `le/rn addquote//The 'addquote' command is for adding quotes. Please use it on channel, we like knowing what's in there. 05:40:13 Learned 'addquote': The 'addquote' command is for adding quotes. Please use it on channel, we like knowing what's in there. 05:40:54 `? quotes 05:40:56 Quotes are just elements of the quantum dilapidated bogosphere. See qdb. 05:42:30 And... I still wonder how to revert a file to an old revision... the `fetch thing works but it's breaking my heart. 06:16:17 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:17:58 Wasn't there a command for it? 06:18:27 Well, probably. But it wasn't `revert 06:18:30 `help 06:18:30 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch [] " downloads files. Files saved to $HACKENV are persistent, and $HACKENV/bin is in $PATH. $HACKENV is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert, https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/ to browse. $PWD ($HACKENV/tmp) is persistent but unversioned, /tmp is ephemeral. 06:18:52 and it's not mentined here either 06:19:36 `scold HackEso 06:19:37 BAD! BAD HACKESO! 06:20:02 `` ls ../bin | wc -l 06:20:06 478 06:23:06 `` ls .. 06:23:07 bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ f \ factor \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom 06:25:52 Let's see, there was `undo, but that's not the same. 06:26:24 Maybe it was `hg cat -r`. 06:26:39 `` doag | grep 'hg cat' 06:26:44 12018:2019-11-14 `` hg cat -r 9075 bin/random-card > bin/random-card \ 11974:2019-10-21 `` hg cat -r 11938 share/whatis > share/whatis \ 11762:2019-03-27 ` hg cat -r 8425 wisdom/\\` >wisdom/\\` \ 11560:2018-05-15 ` hg cat -r 11537 share/UnicodeData.txt >share/UnicodeData.txt \ 11504:2018-04-13 ` hg cat -r 4569 share/8ballreplies > share/ballreplies \ 11495:2018-04-12 ` hg ca 06:28:35 ah 06:28:46 yeah, that makes sense. thanks 06:29:51 actually it's kind of lucky that hg revert doesn't work, because otherwise there'd now be a backup file to clean up 06:30:26 `` doag | grep raw-file 06:30:30 12357:2020-12-13 fetch ../quotes https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/raw-file/d3ee6de4b493/quotes \ 10317:2017-02-18 ` sed -e \'s,index.cgi/file,index.cgi/raw-file,\' < bin/url > bin/raw-url # this one didn\'t even support tmp/ \ 4249:2013-12-30 learn fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the king of #esoteric, see http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/src/fizziecoin.jpg \ 2671:2013-04-14 seems I was... creative 06:58:03 int-e: Oh, I just went back to expediting and right away found a new mechanic. 06:58:13 Unfortunately it prevents me from solving a puzzle, rather than allowing me to solve it. 06:59:16 Ah, solved it. 06:59:23 It was a dead end anyway. 06:59:33 did it have a landmark 06:59:51 or a friend? or was it just 100% disappointment? 07:01:02 It had a house of cards. 07:01:16 In retrospect that island should have been relatively easy but I had a surprising amount of trouble with it. 07:04:21 Oh no, am I stuck? 07:04:50 Ah, no, I can get back through the rubber duck. 07:05:41 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 07:17:49 hmm there's more to do there 07:19:50 Yes, I was just wondering about the footprints in the map there. 07:20:16 Oh, of course. Man. 07:20:37 Got it. 07:20:52 I was wondering whether that island was solvable on its own. 07:23:41 Hmm, a snowman. 07:24:50 yeah 07:24:57 so close yet so far 07:25:09 Just like friends in real life. :-( 07:25:39 I haven't reached that one yet 07:27:54 -!- earend1 has joined. 07:37:29 I haven't touched the game much either though. 513 islands now (+1 from last report)... that one had a friend though, remarkably. 07:37:56 Which I hadn't seen before. So there are at least 10 friends to find. 07:43:16 -!- user24 has joined. 07:46:05 I think I'm at 192 or so. 07:46:09 197 07:46:44 513 sounds like way too many. 07:49:49 I think you'll need 300 or 350 to reach the end 07:50:07 but there's a lot of area to the sides 07:51:02 And it's worth reaching the end first... it lifts the global fog so you can assess the area where islands are 07:51:26 I hope that isn't a huge spoiler. 07:52:11 You've mentioned it already, anyway. 07:52:44 (To my mind the fog is mainly fluff for flavor and guidance (see where you've been), not an essential part of the puzzles.) 07:53:55 I think "there's more to do there" was more arguably a spoiler. 07:54:05 Though I was just thinking along those lines myself anyway, seeing the footprints. 07:54:21 Yeah I thought of that as a spoiler. 07:54:40 Not a tremendously big one, but still. 07:57:25 Hmm, I like the puzzle at 264,237 07:57:34 Even if it's kind of simple 07:57:44 (The one right before the human bicycle.) 08:01:56 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 08:02:05 And it leads to a fun series of (easy) puzzles, too. 08:04:20 Or maybe they stop being easy, who knows. 08:07:49 I forgot already 08:08:02 I can probably step on an island, reset it, and solve it again 08:08:21 but I don't even know what puzzle theme is beyond the windmill 08:08:30 (they are quite thematic) 08:08:42 (which *is* nice) 08:09:56 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:13:12 Probably, the level compression of Free Hero Mesh should be improved. It is better than Hero Mesh (which doesn't compress and also is inefficient in its coding in other ways), but perhaps improvement could be made. I tried a few things that didn't work. (Maybe, if I try again 100 times then maybe it will eventually work, I don't know.) 08:13:52 The series I was talking about seems to have the theme "push off of a non-rock". 08:14:15 zzo38: how many GB of data are you talking about 08:14:45 shachaf: ah, littering 08:15:12 int-e: Less than one. 08:15:39 zzo38: so maybe it's not worth improving the compression for 08:16:12 (But if a collection of many puzzle sets is made later, then there will be more.) 08:16:47 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_aren't_gonna_need_it 08:17:56 int-e: Perhaps you are correct. Perhaps it can even be simplified from what it is now (although it can still be made more efficient than the EKS format, which uses 16-bit fields even though only 8-bits are needed). 08:18:04 OK, enough for today. 08:18:08 I'm at 224 islands. 08:18:32 progress 08:18:46 -!- arseniiv has joined. 08:18:47 @time shachaf 08:18:48 Local time for shachaf is Sun Dec 13 00:18:47 2020 08:19:15 I'm sort of supposed to be attending the SAT thing, too. 08:19:21 But I'll just watch the videos instead. 08:19:32 zoom! 08:19:48 I guess you miss the discussions 08:20:13 (that is, the opportunity to participate in them) 08:20:36 (which is intimidating and hard) 08:24:38 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 08:24:38 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 08:24:51 The main problem is that the talks themselves are recorded, and I don't want my voice in them. 08:25:11 I did type a few questions that the speaker answered, before. 08:25:25 Did I mention the surprising fact the speaker said? 08:25:54 The fact is: For UNSAT instances, you should restart very frequently, and for SAT instances, you should restart infrequently. 08:26:04 If you'd asked me to guess, I would've predicted the exact opposite. 08:27:14 hmm, yeah that feels counterintuitive. 08:28:03 I will still need to fix the level compression anyways, since in one converted level, it results three Field objects at (7,1) even though there is supposed to be only two (although all but one is redundant anyways, but that is what it is in the original; it isn't my fault!) 08:29:43 I can rationalize the former a bit, I guess: maybe for UNSAT the idea is that when you take a fresh look at the problem you gain insights (learn clauses) that are unrelated to what you did before... and hence maybe more useful 08:30:24 rathet than comprehensively exploring a corner of the problem based on the first couple of choices you made. 08:30:33 *rather 08:31:12 And SAT might actually need a distinction between problems with few models and problems with plenty of them. 08:33:48 What does UNSAT mean? 08:34:33 unsatisfactory... sorry, kidding. unsatisfiable 08:35:13 int-e: My original intuition for restarting was, maybe you get stuck in some difficult and fruitless subtree for a long time, and if you'd just started with a slightly different guess you'd've found a solution immediately. 08:35:24 But that seems more applicable to SAT than to UNSAT. 08:35:37 SAT and UNSAT are names for the yes and no answer of a (here: propositional) satisfiability problem. 08:35:44 Yes. 08:36:00 I mean, if there is a solution, it seems like maybe you can jump around and hope to find it. 08:36:11 But if there isn't one then it seems like you'd need to be more exhaustive. 08:36:15 shachaf: Right, but one of the lessons here, I think, is that you really have to think in terms of learning. 08:36:17 O, OK. 08:36:19 Certainly for regular DPLL it seems like that's how it'd work. 08:36:32 Right, I was about to say. It must be about clause learning things that I don't have a good feel for here. 08:37:02 I meant "more applicable to SAT instances than to UNSAT instances". 08:37:17 Yeah I've been there :) 08:38:16 As you probably know there are randomized solvers that are only good for SAT instances... random walks are kind of continuous restarts 08:39:03 I don't know whether they're still better than CDCL solvers for SAT instances. They used to be. 08:41:57 int-e: WalkSAT. But only good for underconstrained problems. I.e., that can have many solutions. AFAIR! 08:42:15 Like $n$ queens 08:44:28 Randomized solvers as in local search? 08:45:28 https://arxiv.org/abs/1402.4413 makes the argument that CDCL solvers with very frequent restarts are very similar to local search. 08:50:46 That resonates... I may have seen or heard that idea before somewhere. 08:51:09 Can't place it though. 08:57:04 Have you seen this? https://github.com/marijnheule/microsat 08:57:22 Nice code, but a possible contender for IOCCC title 09:00:24 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine). 09:00:48 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 09:01:35 I've seen it and even worked through most of the code, I think. 09:01:47 shachaf: cool 09:02:03 I should fix up my solver. 09:02:19 I was thinking the big thing I need to do was VSIDS. 09:02:32 shachaf: have you seen more SAT solvers like that to study? I already saw TAOCP 7.2.2.2 solvers... 09:02:42 2017, hmm. Yeah I've probably seen it, glanced at it, balked at the coding style, and gone away. Oh, actually I seem to recall shachaf mentioning it here around the time they started on their own solver. 09:02:46 But the talk the other day said that modern solvers can do as well as VSIDS with a relatively simple move-to-front heuristic. 09:03:16 aaaaaa: Nothing that short. 09:03:34 shachaf: maybe a bit longer :) 09:03:38 I read some of the TAOCP solver code too. 09:03:42 SAT13.pdf, I think. 09:03:56 Of course I looked at minisat. 09:04:09 Just think of prefixes that mean "small", add "sat" at the end, and see if you find something. 09:04:19 picosat exists but I don't know much about it. 09:04:35 http://bach.istc.kobe-u.ac.jp/lect/taocp-sat/knuth/pdf/sat13.pdf is the literate PDF. 09:06:25 BTW, is there any good reason to use Knuth's literate style over commented code? 09:07:34 . o O ( Maybe if you like explaining your code more than writing it... ) 09:08:09 int-e: yes, for textbooks, for example. Like TAOCP itself. 09:08:14 aaaaaa: Sometimes, I think. If the purpose is to describe the algorithms or the rules or something like that, I think that it can help; trying to describe it without the code is often not working as well, and just an ordinary program code is not so suitable for describing it. 09:09:12 Can't a tool like Doxygen help it? 09:09:42 I like the property of 2SAT that, if you make an incorrect guess, you'll always find that out through unit propagation. 09:09:55 So you only need a stack of size 1. 09:09:58 My understanding of literate programming is that you're writing a text document from which a program can be extracted. 09:10:26 String glob matching -- foo*bar*vaz -- also has that property, that you only need to backtrack to the most recent * 09:10:38 Does it happen elsewhere? 09:10:44 Doxygen is for making the documentation of each function and stuff in the program, not for explaining the algorithms, I think. 09:10:58 And the emphasis is on the text. I suppose you can use web as a fancier macro language. I haven't seen anybody do it, except Knuth. 09:11:25 I don't like Doxygen-style documentation very much. 09:11:36 int-e: yes, somehow, it's not popular at all. Knuth got it wrong? 09:11:38 I'd rather read the source code comments directly in most cases. 09:11:59 I don't like Doxygen much either, actually. 09:12:03 shachaf: it's a theme in some classic dynamic programming tasks, like finding the longest increasing subsequence 09:12:25 aaaaaa: I don't think he got it wrong. 09:12:38 aaaaaa: It seems to have worked brilliantly for himself. 09:12:52 But most people aren't Knuth. 09:12:53 Knuth says that thanks to literate programming he's able to write more complicated programs than he would otherwise. 09:13:06 int-e: another his tool is TeX, which has immense popularity 09:14:21 Well, LaTeX more than plain TeX. 09:14:48 Yes, LaTeX is used much more, although a few people (including myself, and also Knuth) use Plain TeX. 09:15:11 Because LaTeX liberates you from having to think about string processing and stuff like catcodes. 09:15:19 zzo38: is there any good reason to try plain TeX over LaTeX? 09:15:36 Can you teach me any kittycatcodes? 09:15:58 `? procrastination 09:16:00 The Procrastination is destined to rule the world... right after watching this final funny cat clip on youtube. 09:16:26 I suppose kissat has kittycatcodes. 09:16:36 aaaaaa: Well, I find it less confusing, at least. I think also it is more likely to work in future because it is not going to be changed so much 09:16:39 well that one is a literal cat 09:16:57 not to be confused with a literate cat 09:17:07 or a littering cat 09:17:13 or a cat litter 09:17:14 zzo38: OK. Any TeX sources to learn from, except from Knuth's website? 09:17:24 (too silly?) 09:17:29 You could read the TeXbook presumably. 09:17:37 shachaf: yeah, forgot about it 09:18:15 Yes, that is my idea too, is to read the TeXbook. 09:19:51 there are also some attempts of reconstruction like https://doi.org/10.1017/S0956796897002840 09:20:32 or maybe this copy https://www.rw.cdl.uni-saarland.de/people/heckmann/private/abstracts/neuform.html 09:21:19 Though that is on the typesetting end, not on the esolang end of TeX. 09:22:12 My "Scientific Role Playing System" is written with Plain TeX. I also added macros to make cross-references, table of contents, etc. You could look at it to use as the example for your own use, if you want to do, I suppose. 09:22:40 (I also included fonts with unslanted Greek alphabets, in case you need that.) 09:25:30 zzo38: URL? 09:26:32 The Fossil repository is at: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/scirps.ui You can clone with Fossil or view it in a web browser; select "Files" to view the files. 09:27:25 If a table spans multiple pages, you can write "(Continued on next page)" at the bottom of each page, and repeat the table heading at the top of each page. 09:28:06 zzo38: thanks! 09:28:47 zzo38: You should enable TLS for your HTTP server, so that I can see it easily. 09:29:44 Some uses of TeX that have cross references require you to run TeX multiple times, but that is actually unnecessary. While a non-immediate \write in a page will not work unless the page is shipped out, you can use insertions containing marks. 09:31:09 shachaf: I did intend to enable TLS, and may do so later, but right now it isn't. 09:31:35 i,i translation lookaside suffer 09:33:06 I also wrote a style guide for SciRPS; if you like to review and know how to review such a thing, then you might do so to write a complaint of it. 09:33:13 three letter supplement 09:34:41 totally lousy security 09:39:11 -!- Arcorann has joined. 09:53:22 The list of skills in SciRPS is incomplete, and maybe you might have some more idea what skills to add, too. 10:14:31 int-e: yes, sadly the web editor only works with ascii files, as I learned back when I tried to edit the whatis database. that's when I added an addwhatis command. 10:17:08 `help addwhatis 10:17:10 ​`addwhatis? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 10:17:17 `cbt addwhatis 10:17:17 ​#!/usr/bin/python3 \ import sys, os, re, getopt \ # allow options for future compatibility \ opts, args = getopt.getopt(sys.argv[1:], "") \ newd = dict() \ def procnew(arg): \ match = re.fullmatch(r"([^\x00\r\n()]+\([0-9A-Z_a-z]+\))" \ r"(?: ?| - ([^\x00\r\n]*?))\r?\n?", arg) \ if match: \ key, val = match.group(1), match.group(2) \ if key in newd: \ print("addwhatis: duplicate key in input: %r" % 10:17:22 `help edit 10:17:23 ​`edit gives you a url, then in your browser: (1) Press Sync (unless making a new file) (2) Make your changes (3) Press Save (4) Paste the command line at the top into the channel. 10:18:05 shachaf: I think hg revert is to revert uncommitted changes, and you revert an earlier committed change with ... dunno. apparently not svn merge, not git revert, so no idea how 10:24:06 " The main problem is that the talks themselves are recorded, and I don't want my voice in them." => can you ask typed questions even during? 10:28:29 " Just think of prefixes that mean "small", add "sat" at the end, and see if you find something." => suffixes too, like there's probably a "sat'lite" 10:40:40 -!- rain1 has joined. 10:48:39 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:54:20 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 11:59:59 " i,i translation lookaside suffer" lol 12:05:19 (even though I think "translation lookaside buffer" is such a stupid name, it should just be called "page table cache" or "paging cache". though admittedly Knuth calls it the "translation cache".) 12:06:41 Tinkerbell's Lip Service 13:52:43 int-e: Right, there was something along those lines wrong with the web thing, but it's using a framework(tm), and I think I couldn't figure out why exactly it was behaving like that. It's Python/Flask, and the part that's my code *looks* like it should be just UTF-8 everywhere, but of course HTTP has its own thing about encoding negotiation, and none of that seemed to be exposed. 13:53:40 Maybe I should just put a big bold warning up saying "please don't use this interface for files containing non-ASCII text". Or reimplement it. 13:56:39 The "maintains a separate copy, needs manual sync with the repo" model is I think also a little hard to (a) explain (b) grok. Maybe there's something better. 14:27:26 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 14:41:20 [[EsoKit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79393&oldid=46251 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) /* Licensing */ cat 14:49:54 -!- earend1 has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 14:50:05 [[Omnifuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79394&oldid=70942 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+8) Missing links in this page's evolution 14:58:26 [[End]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79395&oldid=68366 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+121) Give some structure 14:58:46 [[End]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79396&oldid=79395 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Truth-machine */ m 15:00:00 [[Category:Joke, kinda]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79397&oldid=69477 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+46) Please use 15:08:46 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79398&oldid=79189 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) Male 15:09:36 [[MLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79399&oldid=79275 * Skyespr * (+184) updated since changes to the language (v0.9) 15:14:59 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:20:37 Heh, not surprised day 13 scored pretty high on the old twistiness. Though not as high as last year: https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/twist.html 15:22:44 [[Printscript 9]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79400&oldid=68195 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* See also */ list 15:23:07 i like that chart! 15:24:39 [[Printscript 5]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79401&oldid=68194 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+46) /* See also */ others 15:24:47 [[Printscript 5]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79402&oldid=79401 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-20) /* See also */ rm self link 15:25:09 [[Printscript 13]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79403&oldid=68197 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+7) /* See Also */ links 15:25:22 [[Printscript 9]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79404&oldid=79400 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* See also */ link 15:25:44 what is this chart? 15:25:45 [[Printscript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79405&oldid=68192 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* See Also */ lInks 15:27:04 The twistiness metric is \frac{\sum_{i=1}^{100} T_2^i}{\sum_{i=1}^{100} T_1^i}. 15:27:15 [[Printscript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79406&oldid=79405 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20) /* Syntax */ 51 15:27:44 Or in other words, the total amount of time used by the first 100 people to get two stars, divided by the total amount of time used by the (likely different) first 100 people to get one star. 15:27:49 -!- imode has joined. 15:28:51 So more informally, it's a number >= 1 that measures how much harder part 2 was compared to part 1. 15:30:58 I've also plotted https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/time.one.html and https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/time.two.html that just show the leaderboard times (with the thick bar showing the 25..75 range, and the thin rule showing the 1..100 range). 15:31:41 fizzie: the thing that troubled me most today was sign errors. 15:31:59 t = i (mod m) instead of t = -i (mod m) 15:32:02 twice. 15:32:20 I did the "% isn't actually modulo" thing. 15:33:13 Oh I did not implement (or reuse) egcd. 15:33:20 (In Go, as in C, it's the remainder from the truncated-towards-zero division.) 15:34:20 I don't know if my solution is as elegant as it could be, but it runs in no appreciable amount of time, so it's fine. Just feel like it's missing a trick somewhere. 15:34:22 and I trusted the system to be solvable 15:35:08 I do that as well. 15:37:18 http://paste.debian.net/1176718/ is the heart of my solution (with comments added right now) 15:37:49 Bezout meets KISS. 15:38:51 Oh and I flipped a sign; for the description to be correct the x + s should be x - s. 15:39:24 -!- LegionMammal978 has joined. 15:39:30 I've got something quite similar except iterative, and I've replaced `lcm a b` with a*b, because all the initial numbers are prime, so all the pairs are coprime. 15:40:16 I'm actually rather surprised that today scored so high on twistyness. I just recognized it as a Chinese Remainder problem and downloaded a preexisting library for it. 15:40:17 I didn't look at the input that closely 15:40:23 but it makes sense that the ids are prime 15:40:35 LegionMammal978: people don't know what that is 15:40:48 LegionMammal978: you could see yesterday that people struggle with basic linear algebra 15:41:04 Go doesn't have a gcd/lcm built-in, so. 15:41:25 fizzie: sure I might look more closely at the list then and do the same 15:42:56 I will admit, though, that when I saw the second part of day 11 I just threw my hands up in defeat due to the silly CA neighborhood rules. 15:44:51 Couldn't find a library to do that?-) 15:45:14 fizzie: the proper solution involves a modular inverse. When a and b are coprime, then r (mod a) and s (mod b) combine into r + a*(s-r)*(a^-1 (mod b)) (mod ab), noting that thanks to the multiplication by a, the (mod b) gets lifted to something (mod ab). 15:45:49 It was a bit wonky, but so was the CA for 2019 day 24 part 2. 15:46:11 fizzie: In fact, I did use a library for the first part, but it ended up being very slow due to the library's poor documentation. 15:46:36 but since all ids were small the simple (though not quite naive) approach won the day 15:47:04 modular inverses can be computed using the extended euclidean algorithm, of course. 15:47:32 And indeed there must be libraries for this. 15:50:07 GP/PARI has this: chinese(Mod(1,5), Mod(6,21)) = Mod(6, 105) 15:50:18 int-e: Right, makes sense. I do in fact have a Go `func modinv(a, m int64) int64` in 2019 day 22 solutions. 15:50:52 (And `func egcd(a, b int64) (g, x, y int64)` as well.) 15:52:05 -!- LegionMammal978 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:52:33 my personal 'part 1 rank' / 'part 2 rank' is 8.05 15:52:37 today 15:54:06 (that's a really weird metric) 15:57:53 [[MLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79407&oldid=79399 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* output */ Fix a cat 15:58:45 why not heat map 15:59:00 would be one chart instead of 20 16:03:23 Instead of 25. 16:04:12 And I think it's easier to see values from a bar chart than judge shades in a heat map. 16:05:01 Especially for the other one that shows four values per day. 16:06:01 with 25 charts where values are grouped you are limited to compare years within a task number and can't easily compare tasks within a year 16:06:27 Well, that's what I plotted it for, really. 16:06:58 you would easily see both views in case of heat map 16:07:34 color adds the third dimension 16:08:34 Like I said, I think it's easier to read values from an axis than from a shade. 16:09:03 in case of 25 charts there is tautology because you are already able to see which of 5 bars is 1st and which is 2nd, etc. and colors have no function so it's effectively black and white 16:09:25 ...and not to repeat myself, but the other chart needs to show four values per day. 16:09:37 Well, not "needs to", but "wants to". 16:10:13 (Maybe that other chart should be one of those violin plots, though, those are so fancy.) 16:10:55 -!- earend1 has joined. 16:11:44 I hate fireworks 16:12:01 they happen every evening now but when I get up and come to the window they end already 16:12:23 they should work in such way that there are 1-2 shots and then pause to let people come to windows 16:12:31 -!- delta23 has joined. 16:19:03 no they should just go off continuously for 48 hours 16:19:06 then there's no missing them 16:20:11 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:21:37 https://i.redd.it/l6qsnijz7w461.png 16:23:07 Heh. It's even rather more clear by now. 16:23:15 https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=now%201-d&geo=US&q=chinese%20remainder%20theorem 16:24:03 Or https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=now%201-d&q=chinese%20remainder%20theorem worldwide, where it hasn't flattened down so much, presumably thanks to timezones. 16:24:07 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 16:24:23 you're saying AoC has an impact? 16:24:33 cute 16:24:36 "Related queries": advent of code, advent of code day 13, advent of code 2020 day 13, wolfram alpha. 16:25:55 `? crt 16:25:57 crt? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 16:26:08 The cathode ray theorem. 16:26:32 Or the Chinese remainder tube. 16:44:19 they happen every evening now but when I get up and come to the window they end already => oh they do! (when they are) 16:45:40 also they tend to appear hidden by trees or in places where you can’t see from your windows 16:49:09 By popular demand (N=1): https://zem.fi/tmp/aoc/twist.heat.html 16:50:01 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:00:28 -!- TheLie has joined. 17:06:10 I'm almost done with my lang (done with a part of implementing, testing and documeting the Befunge's part) -- now the main instruction left and I can start coding in it 17:07:16 fizzie yay! 17:09:28 didn't know about Vega -- I'll try it next time I chart anything 17:10:38 I used Chart.js 17:42:40 I learned of Altair (basically, the Python API for Vega/Vega-Lite) from fiddling with Google Colab things, and it seemed okay. 17:48:36 -!- adu has joined. 18:04:24 -!- sprocklem has joined. 18:10:11 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Quit: leaving). 18:41:55 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 18:53:56 nakilon: this is the new fungeoid that's like befunge but without self-modifying code? 19:02:45 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 19:10:34 emmmm 19:11:09 -!- b_jonas has joined. 19:11:54 b_jonas it will be with random read access to the stack instead of reading/writing to the program space 19:12:23 I guess I'll need to clarify the "read" word everywhere, forgot about that 19:12:42 and with Rational data type instead of byte or 32bit 19:13:35 so you can put any number to the stack 19:34:55 nakilon: I see. will you add random access from the bottom so that the coder doesn't have to count stack elements and adjust addresses? or some storage other than the stack, for even more convenience? 19:51:06 bottom is kind of ephemeral in funge 19:51:11 it's an eternal source of zeros 19:51:57 in my opinion coder should not think there is a bottom 19:53:26 nakilon: ok, how about some other place of storage besides the stack then? 19:53:30 specification is now done 19:53:45 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 19:53:59 b_jonas I'll see if it's needed, I don't reject the idea of the second stack yet 19:54:10 I'll see on practice if I feel that I need it 19:54:24 is the specification online? linked from https://esolangs.org/wiki/ or something? 19:54:44 it's here https://github.com/Nakilon/rasel 19:55:10 I'll move to wiki later in somewhat different form, with examples, etc. 19:55:24 ok 19:55:25 *copy to wiki 19:56:42 "Lines with no non-space characters at the end of the source file are trimmed." => ooh, that will be a fun corner case when you try to jump over that line with a trampoline 19:57:36 "exit with code taken from the stack 19:57:39 If the value isn't integer and isn't within 0..255 the error is raised" => hmm.... 19:58:19 I don't usually like silencing errors, but for exit converting the exit status silently is one of the few cases that I would support. not that it matters much since the program will exit either way. 20:00:00 nakilon: um, what kind of arithmetic exactly do the / and % operations do, if these are rational numbers? 20:01:59 nakilon: um, can this only do reads from deep in the stack, not writes? 20:02:59 I do understand that it's technically Turing-complete with just deep reads, but it's much harder to write programs for it that way, especially efficient practical ones 20:04:02 because you can't discard information from the stack, ever, if there's more than a few bits above it that you have to keep 20:04:49 or... maybe you can somehow with arbitrary precision integers. is there a way to swap the top two elements with these instructions, like with - or something? 20:05:30 there's a backslash instruction. so maybe you can encode a full stack to just the top element, but it's definitely not a practical way to write programs, it's more like the kind of torture that ais523 likes. 20:12:37 # that will be a fun corner case when you try to jump over that line with a trampoline 20:12:39 -!- MDude has joined. 20:12:48 thanks, I'll cover it here probably https://github.com/Nakilon/rasel/blob/3bbc664a04e8267e7a4780b0aff0bd483a0cf0ec/test.rb#L68 20:14:58 b_jonas the trouble will be for those who got used to Befunge if they don't push 0 before exit and if they care about the exit code 20:15:38 but if they don't care it's just an exit code, no "error message" or "backtrace" is designed 20:15:57 nor it is for Befunge I guess 20:17:03 the / % arithmetics are like in Ruby 20:17:06 irb(main):001:0> 2r / 3 20:17:06 => (2/3) 20:17:06 irb(main):002:0> 2r / 3 * 6 20:17:06 => (4/1) 20:17:33 irb(main):003:0> 2r/3 + 4r/5 20:17:33 => (22/15) 20:18:42 in case of Befunge with the integer math by default the division for negative numbers had to clarify in which side to round 20:18:53 in case of Rational there is no rounding, nothing to worry about 20:22:53 b_jonas I guess I understood your point, the inability to push deeper of from the other side may suck 20:23:11 I'm thinking now about positional swap, lol 20:23:26 "swap top value with Nth" 20:24:32 either something like that or at least defining the bottom of the stack and push to the bottom 20:37:17 nakilon: what does % do then? or how do you compute the floor of a number? 20:37:37 no wait, make that easier. how do you compute the floor of a positive number? 20:40:03 actually I guess the trimming corner case was already covered in '"' test but I'll make there too to be sure 20:41:40 irb(main):001:0> (5r/3) % 1 20:41:40 => (2/3) 20:41:40 you mean this? 20:43:06 $ echo "53/1%.@" | ./bin/rasel 20:43:06 0.6666666666666666 20:44:08 n$ echo "83/:1%-.@" | ./bin/rasel 20:44:09 2 20:47:05 ok, so the % computes one of the many remainder or modulus operations, and you can use that to compute the floor. good. 20:47:12 then at least the arithmetic works 20:47:21 ..D 20:55:06 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:01:45 [[Regular expression]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79408&oldid=8029 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) Add alternate names 21:01:48 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:08:45 [[Voxvy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79409&oldid=78134 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+175) Add more langs (from original document) 21:09:20 [[Voxvy IDE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79410 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) redirect 21:27:02 "Of course, your expense report is much larger." 21:27:12 adventofcode makes me asd 21:27:16 *sad 21:29:53 [[Stu]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79411 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2844) Add Stu 21:30:28 [[Stu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79412&oldid=79411 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) /* Truth-machine */ Cats 21:31:52 b_jonas: I agree, it's a silly name. 21:33:12 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79413&oldid=79388 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) /* S */ +[[Stu]] 21:34:16 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79414&oldid=79398 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) /* Languages */ +[[Stu]] 21:36:29 [[Stue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79415&oldid=9180 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+145) cats 21:38:40 [[Voxvy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79416&oldid=79409 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Languages included */ Add link to [[Stu]] (HZOP/RFN/etc. all exist, but they are off-wiki) 21:38:44 -!- delta23 has joined. 21:41:10 I'm thinking if _ and | are really needed as two instructions 21:41:44 it can be one instruction that works as nop() if true and as reverse() if false 21:48:22 nakilon: but isn't a conditional reversing direction inconvenient in befunge because you need a trampoline to really use it? 21:48:49 a befunge trampoline 21:49:19 funge languages are inconvinient by nature ..D 21:49:46 i think you misspelled awesome 21:50:21 I can't tell it's always a free spot on both sides of | or _ -- you often need to insert a line and place <>v^ right on the exit from this instruction 21:51:43 s/can't tell/won't say 21:51:56 IME, | and _ are quite convenient because often you need to $ a number, and you know for sure whether it's zero or non-zero, so you often get to use _ or | to both change direction and discard a number with one instruction. 21:52:22 (I call that a "discard-if".) 21:53:17 fizzie: yes, but in this language they distinguish between negative and nonnegative, or something like that, not zero and nonzero 21:53:40 I haven't been following that. 21:54:11 positive vs nonpositive apparently 21:54:32 north or west for positive 21:54:36 south or east for nonpositive 22:09:10 yep, to deprecate the "greater than" conditional instruction I made these non-symmetrical around zero 22:10:40 to convert "if > 0" to "if >= 0" just add 1 (won't work for float I guess though) 22:12:57 and if you do "0\-1+" it will work like "!" before conditions 22:13:11 maybe there are shorter replacements 22:13:39 these optimizations would depend on the exact algorithm you need 22:17:30 int-e: re modular inverse: yes, but the numbers are so small that you don't need any of the fast ways to compute it. the largest bus period I have in the live example file is 509, in the examples it's 1889, and there's an easy way to compute the modular inverse in a loop with as many iterations as the modulus 22:18:54 and the moduluses are relative primes too, though I guess you needn't know that in advance 22:19:58 mind you, there's also an easy way to compute the gcd in a loop with as many steps as one of the moduluses 22:21:32 also all the calculation easily fits in 64-bit integers 22:28:46 I'm pretty sure it's intentional that all integer-y AoC problems fit in 56-bit integers. 22:29:01 For those poor saps on languages with just a double-precision float. 22:30:36 ah, in doubles, not only in 64-bit ints? possible 22:32:52 The largest answer I've got in 2019 results is in the order of 2^48, though of course that doesn't mean no intermediate quantities were larger. 22:54:18 hmmmm, adapting 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:#,_@' to a single conditional '?' is tricky 23:15:40 [[SCREAMCODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79417&oldid=78304 * Baguette * (+4) Made the script call the Ruby env with /usr/bin/env, rather than an absolute path 23:21:48 -!- Arcorann has joined. 23:28:39 -!- TheLie has joined. 23:34:07 -!- joast has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 23:39:39 -!- joast has joined. 23:54:27 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: Reconnecting). 23:54:43 -!- b_jonas has joined. 23:54:49 -!- b_jonas has quit (Client Quit). 2020-12-14: 00:01:50 -!- b_jonas has joined. 00:23:32 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 00:44:14 [[Stu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79418&oldid=79412 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* Infinite cat program */ Until EOF 00:45:22 [[SCREAMCODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79419&oldid=79417 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) /* Trivial brainfuck substitution interpreter */ Cat 00:57:27 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:09:54 -!- earend1 has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 01:16:44 [[Subleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79420&oldid=74492 * Unl256 * (+97) /* External resources */ 01:48:06 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 01:48:42 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:49:26 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 02:13:47 That's the right answer! You are one gold star closer to saving your vacation. [Continue to Part Two] 02:14:46 https://dpaste.org/n7bd/slim 02:15:02 2020 day 1 is solved in RASEL ..) 02:15:37 nakilon: ok, although technically it only counts as solving in a new language if the language is older than the task specification 02:15:58 but it's a good start 02:18:49 the lack of '+' and '*' obviously result in more instructions used 02:19:28 but it's interesting how non-trivial it becomes, there are different approaches to the same thing instead of one straight forward 02:20:51 for example, to compare the number with 2020, in Befunge I would build 2020 first as 59*:*5-, then -, then I already can call _ or | 02:22:43 but here I had to find another approach, and I'm not if it's optimal but I added 5 (05--), then divided by 45 twice (5/5/9/9/) -- after that if the number was 2020 the result should be exactly 1 02:23:16 how do I check if it's 1? I subtract 1 check if it's positive, then negate and check if it's positive again 02:23:38 that's far more complex than in Befunge but a good playground for golfing ..D 02:24:19 I should write up my favorite programming practice tasks somewhere so I can just link to them. I know I've told them in chat often, but that's chat. 02:26:10 of course you probably already know some of the stock ones, like print hello world, print the first 100 prime numbers, fizzbuzz, etc 02:27:06 does anyone have the first task solution in Befunge? I would like to compare the size 02:28:32 that's quite specific. if fizzie doesn't have it then probably nobody does. 02:30:59 I haven't been doing Befunge. I kind of thought about it, though. Maybe I should. 03:01:06 Here's a quickly thrown together Befunge-98 version of 2020 day 1 part 1. It's not necessarily going to be *good* Befunge-98, mind you: http://ix.io/2HXh 03:01:50 Very much in the "use playfield cells as variables" style. 03:10:50 [[$ $]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79421&oldid=79080 * Pppery * (-2) /* Implementations */ "An interpreter has been implemented in perl " 03:16:20 [[$ $]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79422&oldid=79421 * Pppery * (-94) /* Examples */ 03:29:34 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 03:32:10 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:52:00 fizzie where is 2020? 03:54:48 ah I see, '-:*5- 03:55:57 Yep. 03:56:21 you wrote it several times faster than I would do that 03:56:33 in just 30 minutes 03:57:26 I spent at least half of that trying to find a browser-friendly Befunge-98 debugger, because I'm very lacking of a locally installed Befunge development environment at the moment. 03:58:38 How do we add input 03:58:55 For the record, landed on https://misc.purkka.codes/jsfunge-98/befunge98.html which doesn't do input, so I had to debug it with a 2a*a*a*1fp2a*2fp3 in place of the input loop to preload 2000, 20 as my expense report. 03:59:19 Then ran it on cfunge locally on my AoC puzzle input; but cfunge isn't that great for debugging. 04:00:01 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: I seem to have stopped.). 04:00:54 I did in fact get it almost right on the first try without the debugger, just had 00g where I needed a fg00gfg, i.e., it was printing the product of the *indices* of the matching values, not the product of the matching values. 04:01:38 -!- Taneb has joined. 04:05:04 -!- adu has joined. 04:24:33 b_jonas: I knew that and in fact I didn't implement or use modular inverses in my solution... but we meandered to the question of how to do it efficiently 04:24:47 for big numbers 05:39:18 -!- arseniiv has joined. 06:08:28 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 06:40:27 also it looks from the world map like we'll have to leave this island in a few days for some reason, even though the flavor text suggested that this is our destination island 06:40:52 We were diverted to another island due to the storm, remember? 06:51:58 totally blown off course 06:52:10 oh 06:52:27 then I didn't follow the flavor enough 07:11:04 maybe in the end the path will crisscross all around the map and spell out an obscenity 07:11:19 or look like a penis 07:12:10 https://dailyhive.com/mapped/penis-flight-russia 07:31:57 Have you made implementations with bug for bug compatibility of complex programs? 07:34:26 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:34:40 Intel famously did with the A20 line. 07:35:01 . o O ( best abuse of keyboard controller ) 07:36:40 Yes, I know that there are many that did, but I mean to ask how many people on here have done. 07:38:25 Oh actually I contributed a patch to npiet once that emulates an implementation bug in the (a?) perl interpreter, because one of the programs (towers of hanoi) that I had relied on that. 07:38:31 So... I suppose the answer is yes. 07:39:19 OK. What specific bug is that? 07:40:54 I forgot. Something with positioning after sliding through white areas. 07:41:36 This was over 14 years ago. 07:57:48 zzo38: I'm not sure if I have a good example for that. I've reintroduced bugs to my own code to be able to easily compare the outputs to see if other changes have broken something. And I've worked around bugs in third-party software a lot of times. But I don't think I deliberately tried to add an interesting bug to my code to reproduce a bug in a third-party code. Copied typos in names to match 07:57:54 identifiers or filenames, sure, but not for interesting logic bugs. 08:00:17 Man, everything I hear about the new Apple CPUs sounds unreasonably good. 08:00:20 Too bad it's Apple. 08:07:44 shachaf: Do they have their own instruction set or implement an existing instruction set? 08:07:51 It's ARM. 08:10:13 One of my project is working on bug for bug compatibility, by testing various strange things in the original software to see what happens, and then implementing the program to do the same thing. (This also means that the new program can also serve as documentation for the original program too, I suppose, although that isn't quite the intention.) Some people who write emulators have probably done similar things too. 08:13:58 a can of worms 08:14:58 There is thing also when changing existing programs though, to try to maintain compatibility (such as the "cannot #PUT on bottom row" bug in ZZT; some variants maintain that bug, while some variants remove that bug; I have maintained it but added a per-board option in the extended world format which can remove that bug) 08:16:54 -!- int-e has quit (*.net *.split). 08:16:54 -!- ineiros has quit (*.net *.split). 08:16:54 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (*.net *.split). 08:16:54 -!- APic has quit (*.net *.split). 08:16:54 -!- fungot has quit (*.net *.split). 08:19:01 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:22:19 -!- int-e has joined. 08:22:19 -!- ineiros has joined. 08:22:19 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 08:22:19 -!- APic has joined. 08:22:19 -!- fungot has joined. 08:56:48 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:11:56 The documentation for the "goto" statement in Hero Mesh says "Very structured, very object oriented. If you don't like it, don't use it." However, it is needed for any kind of loops (except ForEachObjAt loops); there is no "while" command. 09:17:24 Perhaps you could use a macro library or similar that implements while loops in terms of goto, and not use goto directly? 09:17:42 I'm not familiar with Hero Mesh 09:19:25 Hero Mesh doesn't have macros. (However, Free Hero Mesh does have macros, and it also has while loops) 09:20:28 (Although, anything converted from Hero Mesh will not use the macros or while loops, of course.) 09:45:29 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 10:17:15 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:24:57 -!- TheLie has joined. 11:00:01 -!- LKoen has joined. 12:03:53 -!- rain1 has joined. 12:07:28 I woke up and realised that 12:07:57 to check if the value is zero you don't have to check if it's positive, negate and then check again 12:08:24 you can square it and then check 12:08:38 -!- FastestCoderOnEa has joined. 12:08:51 Hi 12:09:48 Is this the correct place to ask for feedback on new esolang ideas? 12:10:13 yes 12:10:22 you can use the wiki too to write it up 12:10:30 Cool, 12:11:00 I think about creating a pointer based language, where the syntax would look like this. 12:11:12 # average ####### l 0 0 ## ↑ len ##↺ ↑ ↑ <= ## ↑ ↑ at ## ↑ ↑ += ##\ ↑ ↑ / ################# 12:11:27 # average ####### l 0 0 ## ↑ len ##↺ ↑ ↑ <= ## ↑ ↑ at ## ↑ ↑ += ##\ ↑ ↑ / ################# 12:11:43 Sorry formatting is bad. 12:11:52 How can I format like code? 12:13:01 use any pastebin service 12:14:15 Ok thanks, here it is https://privatebin.net/?4751c7dd2a0ea64d#8fyAkGLhRBqxenXHVv2DU1FsHms65PKgmicjjXZBawxN 12:15:01 That is a function to calculate the average of a list. Do you think this is a good idea for an esolang, if i work on expanding the functionality? 12:16:21 -!- adu has joined. 12:27:36 The # box is a function and arrows are used to reference a value, then it would have different High Order Functions like ↺ loop and \ change scope. 12:34:19 -!- delta23 has joined. 12:36:05 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:40:30 Does it make sense? 12:45:58 Does it make sense 12:46:06 -!- FastestCoderOnEa has left. 13:03:42 and with "j" the zero check is even simplier: :/jvv 13:12:38 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:15:05 -!- delta23 has joined. 13:39:20 [[$ $]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79423&oldid=79422 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-71) /* Constants */ Remove empty rows 14:23:37 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:28:06 fizzie I wanna add your Befunge solution to README to show that non-golfed code in both languages have about the same size -- 1) may I do it? 2) may I credit your github username? 14:41:25 -!- LKoen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:43:17 -!- LKoen has joined. 14:53:54 I wonder if you didn't check that you don't sum two numbers from the same index too 14:56:50 -!- user24 has joined. 15:18:14 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 15:20:39 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:35:07 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:35:44 -!- delta23 has joined. 16:13:49 baba is you have a level editor now 16:15:53 baba is done 16:17:26 Right, I even deleted my savegame so that I wouldn't go back. 16:20:20 levels can be shared 16:21:07 lalala I'm not listening 16:22:41 -!- MDude has joined. 16:26:53 *****p++ 16:28:12 5 star programmer challenge should be a thing 16:31:44 (never mind about the "check that you don't sum two numbers from the same index") 16:33:16 I never managed to finish baba is you :( 16:33:39 I did manage to do a puzzle I was struggling with last week 16:35:36 baba did get impressively complicated 16:36:53 Though as I recall it, it did a good job of introducing the mechanics and tricks you need. 16:37:39 i like that game 16:39:14 int-e: I think I'm just bad at puzzles 16:41:36 The way I do it it's a weird process of exploring (looking at the outcome of certain moves, trying to figure out how objects interact, because I can't visualize everything) and trying to find attractive intermediate goals 16:42:45 some levels were very intersting in that i could not solve them at all and they only had a couple things going on and i thought i had explored all options 16:42:56 i remember the lava and ice level being like that 16:43:04 Right, I even deleted my savegame so that I wouldn't go back. => ow 16:44:42 baba is you have a level editor now => am I guessing right it requires you to solve all the levels first? Or to get a specific amount of those flowery flowers? 16:46:00 some levels were very intersting in that i could not solve them at all and they only had a couple things going on and i thought i had explored all options => yep. I remember int-e trying to explain me how to solve one without spoiling it 16:47:53 there was one level in Snakebird which I solved on PC but then couldn’t solve on the phone for tens of tries, and then suddenly I saw what I was missing again. And by now I probably won’t remember that move if I’ll retry again 16:48:02 https://babaiswiki.fandom.com/wiki/Level_Editor says it has to be enabled manually 16:48:41 Snakebird ... I was so happy when I finished that one. 16:49:30 oh! by the way have somebody seen Jelly no puzzle by qrostar (IIRC)? I think there should be a clone of it, the ideas are pretty interesting 16:51:11 Hmm. Maybe I'll declare Infinifactory finished without even trying the last level set. I can't see myself ever sit down and try it seriously. 16:51:22 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:54:54 (I've talked about this before... There's dozens of levels in Infinifactory that I actually found fun, but the last set just seems to be about making things *big*. And that's not really interesting to me, it's just tedious and complicated. 16:55:03 ) 16:56:07 found a clone playable in a browser: https://jackkutilek.com/puzzlescript/jelly-no-puzzle.html 16:56:22 but having your own custom levels is the goal 16:56:55 I don’t like tedious too 16:57:14 One of the levels has you put pieces on a kind of PCB. So the way the game works, you have to weld them onto the board. But you can only weld stuff together from the side. So what I think you'll have to do is take two boards, cut them into complementary strips, attach the parts to the strips, and then reassemble the strips to a complete board 16:57:50 and the board is maybe 15 blocks in both dimensions. (1 block in the third). 16:58:41 ("cutting" is lossy, you have to destroy a whole row of blocks) 16:59:03 (so that why you'll need two boards to make one) 16:59:10 anyway, uninstalled. 17:11:45 in Opus Magnum there is a level where you need to upgrade lead atoms five times to make gold, but you need to upgrade them in two ways simultaneously, both using mercury and no mercury, as that level doesn’t provide you with the atom recycle bin thing (of course, otherwise it will be very simple to solve). That makes a grandiose machinery which is very unwieldy to optimize or even lay out in the first place. But there are levels far more tedious to s 17:11:45 olve 17:13:45 btw do you like Lua? 17:14:30 haven't touched it, haven't heard anything about it that's remarkable either, other than being designed as an embedded language that can easily be extended 17:14:50 --> no opinion, really 17:16:24 I used to know it with its basic library almost entirely, once, though I barely wrote in it at all, just a bit of playing in repl 17:19:01 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 17:24:41 -!- rain1 has joined. 17:34:46 adventofcode day 1 part 2 is computationally hard; takes my interpreter 6 seconds for a line 17:36:06 pyramid's volume is cube's volume / 6, right? then it will take 6 * 2 * 200 / 6 = 400 seconds to run through all the data 17:36:46 not that I want to implement sort() for day 1 part 2 _-- 17:50:38 nakilon: 1) yes 2) yes NaN) yeah, I thought it's not going to have 2020/2 on the list anyway 17:53:14 I've got fish in my code: >$$$> 17:53:33 -!- TheLie has joined. 17:57:52 fizzie since I store the array on stack to iterate the first index I just pop the top and the first half of the sum is always the top value 17:58:19 then I start the second index from 2 so it does does not collide 17:58:39 so the fix is trivial, does not need any conditionals 18:00:53 The fix for the Befunge-98 solution is equally trivial, just an extra 1- to the index kept on stack right before the inner loop. I just didn't want to add "extra" characters. 18:02:38 that fish is actually the piece of code that pops the top 18:09:42 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:43:25 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:48:10 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 19:15:50 hmmm, stack being of Rational type gives me an ability to divide every number pushed to it by 2020, so instead of checking if sum is 2020 I can check if sum is 1, that will be simpler 19:26:48 -!- rain1 has joined. 19:59:34 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 20:21:13 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:39:46 [[PRSCNT]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79424 * Someone else * (+2384) Created page 20:41:04 -!- imode has joined. 21:55:42 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 22:03:43 -!- grumble has quit (Quit: Well, would you look at the time. I've almost missed my ambiguous, non-existent appointment that I have scheduled just when I start to lose interest in my current conversation.). 22:04:03 -!- someone_else98 has joined. 22:05:08 hello 22:05:46 -!- someone_else98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:06:43 nice talk 22:12:05 -!- grumble has joined. 22:19:20 -!- esolang has joined. 22:19:29 -!- esolang has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:38:15 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:39:51 nakilon: You might be interested, did part 2 of day 1 in Befunge-98 as well, though it's a bit of a cheat: http://ix.io/2I57 23:24:15 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 23:29:08 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 23:31:48 And for the same low price of none, here's also a stack-only day 2 part 1, but I really need a better Befunge development environment, debugging these is far too slow: http://ix.io/2I5r 23:43:45 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 23:46:50 -!- sprocklem has joined. 23:54:22 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 2020-12-15: 00:26:27 -!- MDude has joined. 01:10:47 -!- atslash has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:11:35 -!- atslash has joined. 01:15:10 -!- imode has joined. 01:26:20 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 01:38:40 -!- MDude has joined. 01:43:15 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:48:57 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 01:49:56 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:50:18 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 01:57:42 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:58:36 -!- MDude has joined. 02:16:11 [[C-trice]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79425&oldid=78911 * RocketRace * (-1596) Replaced content with "Candidate for deletion" 03:56:29 [[OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79426&oldid=74877 * Unl256 * (+96) /* List of OISCs */ 04:18:17 -!- arseniiv has joined. 04:21:24 -!- adu has joined. 04:52:37 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:54:16 -!- rodgort has joined. 04:55:22 -!- haavard has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:56:33 -!- haavard has joined. 05:08:08 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Goodbye). 05:09:45 -!- FireFly has joined. 05:47:33 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 06:37:08 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 06:58:54 unsurprisingly, today's task doesn't look very twisty 06:59:00 emphasis on very 07:00:08 and yesterday's is not nearly as twisted as it might have been 07:14:09 actually today is the first time I spent effort on optimising the code after getting both stars 07:14:30 I was not happy with my code taking more than a minute for the second part. 08:12:12 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:35:29 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:46:19 int-e: mine still takes over 30 seconds and I'm not happy with that 08:47:59 Taneb: I bit the bullet and used ST and unboxed arrays. 08:48:27 well, array, singular. 08:49:12 I'm just using IntMap but I'm surprised there's that much of a speedup from arrays 08:50:08 well you do get millions of entries, so a tree of depth 20 or so, and traversing that is a lot of random memory accesses 08:50:44 Hmm, good point 08:53:08 oh and GC cost may be nontrivial too... hmm. 08:55:25 "Productivity 49.4% of total user, 49.3% of total elapsed" 08:56:34 Just passing +RTS -A2G is a nice 150% speedup 08:56:52 bringing productivity up to 85%. 08:56:58 (ymmv) 09:00:06 But the array version has 99.5% productivity (unsurprisingly; the big array isn't scanned and the rest of the heap is really small) 09:00:48 > 29.717 / 0.562 09:00:51 52.87722419928825 09:04:39 Taneb: what happened to yesterday's second star? 09:05:02 (looking at the #haskell list) 09:06:32 int-e: critical motivation error 09:09:21 it just looks out of place among all the gold :) 09:09:31 I'll get round to it 09:10:13 ...eventually 09:10:25 (Seeing as I've done some of the 2015 tasks this month, it may be a while) 09:38:35 -!- rain1 has joined. 10:06:04 -!- Arcorann has joined. 10:20:46 -!- delta23 has joined. 10:49:56 int-e: I'm unsure what to do at this island that has two tall trees and two rocks. 10:50:31 shachaf: if you make a screenshot I might have an idea 10:50:57 Ah, I was trying to be deliberately vague. But I guess I can do that. 10:51:24 https://slbkbs.org/tmp/2020-12-15-025059_3840x2160.png 10:51:30 Not that I've been stuck here for that long or anything. 10:54:01 Yeah I know what you can do there and it doesn't seem terribly difficult. 10:54:17 I'll figure it out. 11:00:57 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: Leaving). 11:05:04 -!- LKoen has joined. 11:06:23 int-e: Oh, wow, I can't believe I missed that. 11:06:38 Especially since it was the theme of this whole area. 11:07:01 I spent a little time trying to get to the rock but most of the time I was thinking I needed to get to the (barely visible) island in the southeast. 11:08:48 Oh, and it just brought me here. 11:14:26 sometimes all it needs is a small leap of faith 11:20:54 [[Category:Graphical Output]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79427 * Sinthorion * (+69) Created page with "Languages with primarily graphical IO (to screen or to an image file)" 11:21:39 [[PixelCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79428&oldid=78088 * Sinthorion * (+114) categories 11:22:03 [[Graphical Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79429&oldid=50990 * Sinthorion * (+30) category 11:26:08 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:27:14 [[Image]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79430&oldid=62030 * Razetime * (+30) 11:28:36 [[Drawfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79431&oldid=47307 * Razetime * (-5) 11:30:45 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 11:30:53 [[MATL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79432&oldid=76648 * Razetime * (+30) 11:31:37 [[Rebmu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79433&oldid=68159 * Razetime * (+30) 11:34:01 [[Rebmu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79434&oldid=79433 * Razetime * (+0) 11:39:47 did we just get another new category without discussion :-( 11:41:56 though the current state spells out "gimp" in the middle which is a funny accident https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Graphical_Output (may need to be logged in to see the latest version) 11:42:03 -!- Arcorann_ has joined. 11:45:22 -!- Arcorann has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:13:43 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 12:14:07 -!- sftp has joined. 12:32:49 02:31:48 And for the same low price of none, here's also a stack-only day 2 part 1 12:32:51 wow how 12:36:35 my day 1 part 2 is https://dpaste.org/0rDS/slim 12:42:51 somehow your part 2 is different from part 1 only by a little 12:43:31 but it has to be a whole one more loop around 12:54:26 -!- TheLie has joined. 13:02:37 [[Rui]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79435&oldid=78269 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) /* Turing-Completeness */ rm redirect 13:03:08 It doesn't, though. 13:04:10 What it does is essentially: for i { for j { k = 2020 - (i+j); if exists[k]: return i*j*k } } 13:06:07 It uses one of the playfield rows as a bitmap, basically. The input-reading loop collects all the input numbers to consecutive cells of row f as with part 1, but for every number i, it also sets the i'th column of row e to 0 for that "check if we have this number" test. 13:07:34 oh cool, you kind of use the program space for implicit sorting 13:07:40 by that exists[] 13:08:29 [[Rebmu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79436&oldid=79434 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) External link 13:08:31 can't be done in rasel since it currently isn't supposed for random writing 13:08:56 Yeah, that's why I said "it's a bit of a cheat". 13:09:21 ultimate bucket sort 13:09:48 I did part 2 of day 2 as well, but had to use one cell on the playfield for it: http://ix.io/2I9P 13:10:20 I went sleep yesterday on doing day 2 part 2, have to finish it yet 13:10:43 unlike day 1 the part 2 here is changing the program a lot 13:10:57 A rot or a 2swap/2dup would certainly make stack-only Befunge solutions much more plausible. 13:11:19 what's that? 13:11:28 swap 3 top items? 13:11:48 Yeah, [a b c] -> [b c a]. Or the other way around, I can never remember. 13:12:19 It's a Forth term. 2swap and 2dup do [a b c d] -> [c d a b] and [a b] -> [a b a b] respectively. 13:12:21 yeah, each step deeper is a huge help 13:12:36 the number is problems become easily solvable grows exponentially 13:13:38 *of problems 13:14:11 The "algorithms" (if you can call them that) in my Befunge solutions are: for part 1, it just reads characters and compares them to the reference character, possibly incrementing a count stored below the reference. After it's done, it compares the result to the low/high bounds. The input transforms the (low, high) pair to (high-low+1, low) to make it possible with just swap. 13:17:38 And for part 2 it just uses two read-and-discard loops to skip over characters before the first important one, and between the first and second ones, and then calculates essentially (a == c) + (b == c) == 1. But I had to p/g the c value. :/ 13:19:55 int-e: The problem with modern computers are, they're just too fast. I did the "just play the game" solution for part 1, fully assuming they'd ask for some ridiculously large number for part 2 that'd need some clever trick, but then they asked for a relatively modest number, which comes out of the simple solution in less than two seconds. So now I'm not motivated to think about shortcuts. 13:21:43 to see if X is within A and B I stored it like A B B X, then subtract-compare the last two, then restore X by subtracting the (B-X) from B, then compare with A 13:25:10 Hmm, makes sense. What I did was (modulo some +1s) to store B-A A X, turn it into B-A X-A, then do the comparisons X-A > 0 (aka X > A) and X-A < B-A (aka X < B). 13:31:53 fizzie: well as indicated earlier, the Data.Map based Haskell solution made me bite my nails for a minute 13:33:25 I also followed my usual pattern of producing a list of numbers and then taking the N-th element. Turns out that list alone accounted for half of the time. 13:33:42 [[PRSCNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79437&oldid=79424 * Someone else * (+828) 13:35:39 [[PRSCNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79438&oldid=79437 * Someone else * (+33) 13:50:48 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:51:04 -!- LKoen has joined. 13:52:16 FWIW, here's also a stack-only day 2 part 2, with just a little code duplication (to maintain state in the IP rather than on the stack): http://ix.io/2Ia7 13:53:36 Probably that could be fixed too, with some similar system for restoring the value, just don't have time now. 14:01:15 [[PRSCNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79439&oldid=79438 * Someone else * (+1266) Added examples 14:01:37 Eh, actually, it's much simpler than that, I can just http://ix.io/2Iab -- though that's got a larger bounding box after all. Not sure what's better. 14:04:28 [[PRSCNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79440&oldid=79439 * Someone else * (+9) 14:19:01 -!- adu has joined. 14:21:42 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:48:57 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:54:19 [[PRSCNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79441&oldid=79440 * Someone else * (+1268) Added examples 14:55:21 [[PRSCNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79442&oldid=79441 * Someone else * (+6) Formatting 14:56:52 -!- rain1 has joined. 15:15:36 -!- deltaepsilon23 has joined. 15:15:55 -!- delta23 has quit (Disconnected by services). 15:15:59 -!- deltaepsilon23 has changed nick to delta23. 15:17:14 [[PRSCNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79443&oldid=79442 * Someone else * (-680) 15:28:54 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:47:56 [[PRSCNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79444&oldid=79443 * Someone else * (+7) 16:53:24 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 16:58:45 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 17:03:22 -!- sprocklem has joined. 17:05:21 -!- adu has joined. 17:05:26 -!- TheLie has joined. 17:45:54 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 17:56:45 -!- MDude has joined. 18:27:49 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:57:11 fungot, is "four-legged feline" a tautology? 18:57:11 b_jonas: the planned liberalization of telecommunications on 1 january 2001, brought a case before the appeal court of the hague convention. 19:02:40 Why would it be a tautology? 19:45:00 -!- pr0gr3sR has joined. 19:45:30 -!- imode has joined. 19:51:43 -!- FreeFull has joined. 19:57:40 I think all felines have four legs. even tigers, who can swim well, have four legs, not fins, just like crocodiles. catfish aren't actually related that closely, they just have one of these unfortunate aristotelian names like seahorses. 20:13:01 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 20:13:24 I've seen some videos of three-legged and two-legged cats. 20:37:34 there was a song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JSIrfHNJCI 20:38:16 my father often quoted this line but I never knew where it's from, just googled, the last result on the first google's page 20:38:24 it says "cat has 4 legs" 20:38:33 "and behind it there is a tail" 20:38:35 ..D 20:55:25 -!- bitkiller has joined. 20:55:38 -!- bitkiller has left. 21:19:19 -!- Apache has joined. 21:19:26 https://cryptotabbrowser.com/16879401 21:34:45 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:36:57 -!- Arcorann_ has joined. 21:45:49 -!- jess has joined. 21:49:36 -!- Apache has quit (K-Lined). 21:50:38 [[AmBored]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79445&oldid=78301 * Tetrapyronia * (+30) ~ c ~ a ~ t ~ 21:52:10 -!- Apache has joined. 21:54:00 -!- Apache has quit (K-Lined). 21:54:49 -!- Apache has joined. 21:56:18 -!- Apache has quit (K-Lined). 22:07:08 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 23:08:30 > (a == c) + (b == c) == 1. But I had to p/g the c value. :/ 23:08:32 :1:57: error: :1:57: error: parse error on input ‘:/’ 23:08:40 yeah I've got a problem too 23:10:01 I have to store 1. the second skip length 2. the char 3. and the result of the first comparison 23:11:00 and I can't just push the (2) behind (1), I needed it here on top because I duped it for the first comparison 23:12:12 fizzie so you just made copypaste for two branches? 23:12:31 That's the first non-g/p solution I did, yes. 23:15:05 I have a feeling that there is a solution 23:15:42 The other one I have just does a branch followed by either \0\ or \1\ to basically go from stack [skip char result] to [result char skip]. 23:16:34 Er, I don't think that was quite right. 23:16:46 It works, anyway. 23:19:18 Right, from [skip char result] to [char result skip], is what I was supposed to say. By temporarily discarding the result, since the only thing that matters is whether it was 0 or not, so that state can be kept by which branch it's in while it swaps skip and char. 23:20:26 -!- TheLie has joined. 23:21:37 So it's quite similar except that instead of duplicating the whole "discard the middle bit" code it only duplicates the "swap the order of (1) and (2) and then put (3) back" code, to use your numbers. 23:32:50 if only there was a way for first char check part to has an effect on the second part so it reversed its mind 23:35:02 maybe read both chars, compare them with each other and only then compare to the X? 23:35:54 meh, won't work, still need plenty of space 23:43:29 -!- mla has joined. 2020-12-16: 00:01:06 there should be a competitive website about optimizing funge solutions 00:03:30 for example, measuring path length 00:04:27 would make for RASEL if I had another life to spare 00:05:03 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:14:45 Back when I used to golf Befunge with friends, bounding box area was our standard metric. 00:15:06 There's just something very pleasing about a compact square of Befunge code with no appreciable gaps. 00:15:59 (I've not written anything large that I'd've applied that style to, though.) 00:22:47 that's actually an interesting aspect I didn't think about earlier -- the branch we are on has a 1 bit of information in itself 00:22:50 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:23:51 it can be short but useful to get deeper into stack 00:25:13 fizzie I use as a metric a bytesize of the file when you save it and editor trims trailing spaces 00:26:14 you could use the metric of width+height to promote more squared solutions ) 00:26:43 -!- Melvar has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8). 00:26:48 Or the circumference, for round. 00:27:35 Well, some approximation of length of convex hull or whatever. 00:34:11 -!- Melvar has joined. 00:35:47 [[Esolang:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79446&oldid=76245 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+59) /* Input/output capabilities */ Was this discussed? 00:41:45 -!- zeroed has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:45:33 Hmm. I was hoping day 5 part 1 would've turned out to be real short, but http://ix.io/2Ier is what I got for it. 00:51:09 Heh, at least I can use the same bucket sort for part 2: http://ix.io/2Iet -- also moderately happy that only took 5 minutes, and worked the first try. Somehow it's so easy to make mistakes with Befunge code. 00:51:39 Whoops, it's even got some dead code left over from part 1. :) 00:52:35 fizzie: wouldn't bounding box area usually end up with a very narrow rectangle? 00:53:17 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 00:53:47 Hmm, maybe in an actual competitive setting it might. 00:54:20 fizzie: especially in variants of befunge that have long jumps 00:54:58 I admit when we wrote obfuscated code in perl, a lot of them ended up as compact rectangles, but it's sort of an uninspired formatting 00:55:35 so much that I gave two variants in https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=863110 , and I think the one that's not an unformatted blob is nicer 00:55:47 but then befunge is different, because of its 2d control flow 01:15:30 oh finally I made day 2 part 2 01:16:26 fizzie https://dpaste.org/Crmx/slim 01:17:11 it's basically Befunge-like solution, those "j" are accepting just 1 and 0 and so similar to _ and | 01:17:50 almost in the middle there is branching that does a little of action and storing the 0 or 1 01:18:17 and at the end another branch uses that saved bit to chose the branch 01:18:58 I mean and at the end that bit is reused to branch again 01:20:59 *Befunge-like and no random access 01:25:34 "j" pointing from opposite sides are effectively the same as XORing the memorized bit 01:28:28 hmmmm, what if I make "?" not "go forward or reverse" but "go 1 cell forward or 2"?.. 01:29:19 would look the same as I do with ":/j" to test for zero 01:46:57 -!- adminv has joined. 01:50:26 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 01:50:38 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:51:47 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 02:52:34 -!- FreeFull has quit. 02:54:45 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:35:23 oh, fizzie, after I made it in two lines like you did https://dpaste.org/Qpzh/slim 03:35:38 I see that you did the same thing about storing 0 and 1 in two branches I guess 03:36:14 -!- Melvar has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8). 03:37:11 it's almost identical, lol 05:51:50 So, first interesting AoC day today? 05:52:02 What is it, Zorn's lemma? 05:52:18 `? mapole 05:52:23 A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6’ by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg. 05:52:56 * int-e thwacks shachaf with a 5.5' by 13 kg non-regulation mapole. 05:57:21 -!- arseniiv has joined. 07:31:13 -!- Melvar has joined. 07:46:43 -!- user24 has joined. 07:57:08 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 08:02:00 -!- imode has quit (Quit: Bats are people too!). 08:05:17 -!- Arcorann_ has joined. 08:05:53 Implementing the Move() function in Free Hero Mesh would be more complicated to do. Use what it says in the Hero Mesh documentation as the basic hypothesis. Figure out an experiment to distinguish it from other cases. Revise the hypothesis and make up a new experiment, etc. Some things in the Hero Mesh documentation are incomplete or unclear anyways, and I have already figured out some things difference from what it says. 08:09:54 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 08:17:36 -!- rain1 has joined. 08:26:10 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:20:36 -!- arseniiv has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:21:05 -!- arseniiv has joined. 09:23:02 -!- TheLie has joined. 09:38:38 -!- LKoen has joined. 10:17:33 -!- aaaaaa has joined. 11:19:38 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 11:50:06 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:51:16 -!- LKoen has joined. 12:13:49 [[HTPF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79447&oldid=77971 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+0) 12:14:43 [[HTPF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79448&oldid=79447 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+9) 12:15:40 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:17:02 [[HTPF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79449&oldid=79448 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+3) 12:17:34 [[HTPF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79450&oldid=79449 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+14) 12:17:47 . o O ( The password of the month is solarwinds123. (too late, I know) ) 12:20:04 [[HTPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79451&oldid=78389 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+44) 12:33:57 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:43:32 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Wrongpassword1 * New user account 12:48:17 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79452&oldid=79378 * Wrongpassword1 * (+165) 12:48:47 [[User:Wrongpassword1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79453 * Wrongpassword1 * (+114) Created page with "{{retired}} This was a test. How do I delete an account on this wiki?? My pw is the username with a 2 at the end." 12:49:58 -!- theFoxe has joined. 13:00:06 -!- rain1 has joined. 13:13:32 [[HTPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79454&oldid=79451 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-19) Wikipedia link 13:15:05 [[HTPF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79455&oldid=79450 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+76) Cat, seeAlso 13:26:02 [[User talk:Wrongpassword1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79456 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+813) /* Account deletion appears to be impossible */ new section 13:48:43 -!- b_jonas has joined. 14:01:09 hey look, they stopped including the normal sized frame for the default mobile phone SIM card package. the one I bought two years ago still had one. this one only has mini, micro, and Apple sizes (called standard, micro, and nano on the packaging) 14:01:38 yeah 14:04:10 I guess I should call the normal one "credit card size" 14:06:07 b_jonas: we are old enough to remember these SIMs 14:06:35 But I bought my first mobile in 2000, already has "mini-SIM" 14:09:44 I even remeber the times when you had a phonebook in SIM-card 14:16:38 " A rot or a 2swap/2dup would certainly make stack-only Befunge solutions much more plausible." => even with that, Rasel would still have the same problem: you can't erase entries from the stack if there are more than a few entries above it that you have to preserve, unless you encode a list to a bigum, which gets ugly and may be hard. so if you want to, say, merge two lists or reverse or sort a 14:16:44 list, you can do it fast because of random reads but you have to keep the inputs forever, you can't discard old data. 14:17:28 it's sort of like Underload without ! 14:17:34 -!- delta23 has joined. 14:17:42 only not quite that restricted 14:17:59 -!- theFoxe has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 14:24:10 I don't even get the point why to change the SIM card size at all 14:29:56 [[Rasel]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79457 * B jonas * (+856) Created page with "'''RASEL (Random Access Stack Esoteric Language)''' is a [[fungeoid]] esoteric programming language. RASEL code is layed out as a planar array of instructions, with each inst..." 14:32:17 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 14:33:14 nakilon: changing from credit-card sized to mini makes sense, because the credit-card sized card wouldn't fit properly into current phones, at least not without it making the phone thicker. changing from mini to micro might perhaps make sense, it helps you make thin phones with two sim card slots and one SD card slots, popular and useful in Europe these days, although there do exist phones with two mini 14:33:20 sized SIM card slots. I don't understand the Apple size, but Apple has its own third incompatible standards of a lot of things when two other choices are already available. 14:36:04 " there should be a competitive website about optimizing funge solutions" => there are some golf sites that accept many languages, including Code Golf Stack Exchange, you can try to use RASEL for newly posted problems there. 15:01:49 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 15:06:37 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:08:20 -!- delta23 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:08:38 -!- delta23 has joined. 15:18:52 wtf, new cards are of the same thicknaess 15:34:14 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 15:36:39 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:39:10 nakilon: no, the Apple format is thinner 15:40:39 -!- VaMpIrU has joined. 15:40:41 * VaMpIrU Earn your BitCoin Now! https://cryptotabbrowser.com/16879401 15:40:51 -!- VaMpIrU has left. 15:42:39 which, by the way, means either that the tolerances in the curved pins in the phone are supposed to be such that the difference in thickness doesn't matter and Apple changed it for no good reason, or that Apple has deliberately made all SIM cards in normal phones work worse because their center have to be made thinner and so it's easier to get a contact error in a phone that expects a mini or micro SIM 15:42:45 card 15:44:23 (the truth is somewhere in between those) 15:51:55 One sorta-point about the nano being thinner is that you can make a more robust nano-to-micro or nano-to-mini adapter, because it can have something behind the card. 15:52:25 fizzie: no it can't, because the difference is too thin for you to put anything there 15:52:44 That's what ETSI says is the reason, and I've seen adapters for it. 15:52:54 what you have between plus the gap that will be between the back and the Apple sized card because of imperfections together will be too thick 15:53:01 there are such adapters? hmm 15:53:12 https://docbox.etsi.org/workshop/2012/201201_SECURITYWORKSHOP/3_INTERNATIONAL_STANDARDIZATION/UICC_ETSISCP_Vedder.pdf "Thinner to allow adapters so that the 4FF can be 'clicked' into adapters for use as a 3FF SIM giving a kind of backward usability". 15:53:22 (4FF = nano, 3FF = micro.) 15:53:27 Yes, there definitely are adapters. 15:54:11 I mean adapters with a back, not just adapters around the four edges in the plane 15:55:06 Yes, I'm pretty sure I've seen an adapter with a thin plate supporting the card. 15:55:11 btw in 2018 I was using a very old SIM card, one that was only in mini size without an adapter, so I had to get a new one (for free) when I bought a new phone 15:55:13 Which really just makes it easier to insert. 15:55:34 (Without the card falling off, I mean.) 15:55:39 a new phone with mini slot that is 15:55:41 no 15:55:45 a new phone with micro slot 15:56:51 I think all the current phones of this household are now 4FF, but only for the last few months. 16:13:58 -!- thefoxe has joined. 16:30:12 int-e: do you know where lambdabot is? 16:30:29 oops it’s here 16:30:33 @bot 16:30:41 huh 16:30:52 > 2 + 3 16:31:07 yep doesn’t respond in PM and here too 16:31:33 it's sitting prettily, not consuming much memory or CPU, hrm. 16:32:27 I'll kick it in a couple of minutes, let me see if I can get a glimpse of what it's doing first. 16:34:42 hmm just sleeping? 16:36:12 -!- lambdabot has quit (Disconnected by services). 16:38:02 arseniiv: I have no clue what happened there. I killed it and that didn't immediately disconnect it here so it may have been some semi-open TCP connection thing. 16:39:19 -!- lambdabot has joined. 16:40:15 arseniiv: anyway, thanks... I wonder how often this happens 16:44:38 -!- rain1 has joined. 16:48:01 int-e: for the statistics, I used to ask @messages from it on a daily basis and all was more or less well. But these times I often forget to open an IRC window; though a couple of times on this and other week it responded kindly 16:49:57 Hmm. Okay, let's hope it was a rare fluke then. 16:51:19 Because I really don't have a clue where to start debugging this. 16:52:26 intriguing! :D 16:53:23 Back when I took over lambdabot it used to disappear for hours at a time until it was manually kicked... the reason for that were semi-open TCP connections; the Freenode server would lose/close the connection, but no RST package was ever received by the server (I infer, never looked at package captures), and lambdabot never sent anything on its own back in those days. 16:53:58 Now it's sending regular pings so it recovers from that within minutes, usually. 16:54:20 But, apparently, not this time. 17:01:43 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 17:01:50 unluckily I decided to check on IRC before going to sleep, so gtg bye have a nice afternorninghtevening 17:06:10 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:14:12 -!- ice303 has joined. 17:53:02 -!- TheLie has joined. 17:58:05 the only real effect of smaller SIM card I see is that it's easier to lose 18:01:22 these things have become so fiddly 18:02:26 I had not heard about the flatter microsims though, somehow 18:02:56 (thinner) 18:05:56 But wait, Wikipedia says the 4FF (nano-SIM) are thinner because it's meant to be put into adapters for 2FF (mini-SIM) and 3FF (micro-SIM) formats, rather than as a subversion of the standard. 18:06:11 That's where I got that from, yes. 18:06:14 (We discussed it.) 18:06:26 Yeah sorry, I'm bad at catching up on context. 18:06:53 I did follow [25] to check though. ;) 18:09:08 Didn't realize it's (nominally) thinner though. All the recent SIM's I've gotten have been those three-in-one dealies where you pop off the size you need (well, except if you need the 1FF size, but realistically...), wonder if those actually have the middle bit thinner. 18:09:21 Guess 0.1mm isn't exactly that noticeable. 18:09:56 > 0.76/0.67 18:09:59 1.1343283582089552 18:10:19 It's all relative, of course. 18:11:53 yeah, no clue how big the tolerances of the sim card slots are in practice, which is the real question here. 18:13:25 so the update to SIM card size makes the phone 0.1 mm thinner? who needs that? 18:13:54 it's around 1% of phone's thickness 18:14:50 well they've shrunk the other dimensions too which presumably matters more. 18:18:38 bring back credit card size SIMs 18:18:54 They do seem to "advertise" sub-millimeter thickness changes in reviews and such though. But yeah, presumably it's the reduction in area that matters more. 18:19:12 I haven't seen a four-in-one SIM. :/ 18:20:35 I think I've had [12], [23] and [234], but no other combinations. 18:20:53 I guess if they want to make them any smaller they'll need to change the standard, because 4FF is about the same size as the connector itself 18:21:05 femto-SIM is just a dust you sprinkle into the headphone jack 18:21:11 (except they're getting rid of those too...) 18:21:14 There's that eSIM thing. 18:21:45 but that one is permanently soldered, right? 18:21:47 ...sprinkle electrons into floating gates... 18:21:57 Yes, physically speaking. 18:22:09 Logically speaking I think you can "change" what's programmed into it? 18:22:09 isn't it a flash ROM thingy? 18:23:01 but I thought part of the point of SIMs is that they are like smart cards (and share some common ancestor?) and don't let you reprogram them willy-nilly 18:23:26 Yeah, I don't know how exactly the eSIM provisioning works. 18:23:38 But you're definitely supposed to be able to change providers. 18:24:49 "The surface mount format provides the same electrical interface as the full size, 2FF, 3FF and 4FF SIM cards, but is soldered to a circuit board as part of the manufacturing process. The eSIM format is commonly designated as MFF2." 18:25:03 A SIM has writable memory anyway, I have a hard time imagining that they make a write only part just to keep things complicated. And there's already the immutable IMEI on the phone anyway. 18:25:53 I suppose the idea of SIMs as carrier-trusted hardware is probably doomed anyway, since they have to be cheap to manufacture 18:25:56 But at the same time I can imagine all sorts of deliberate barriers for the purpose of vendor lockins. So who knows. 18:26:10 https://www.hologram.io/blog/clearing-up-the-term-esim didn't really clear it up for me. 18:26:32 But at least there's a size comparison. 18:27:18 "eSIM form factor", what the fuck are they talking about? 18:28:31 I think some of my Pixels have eSIM support, but my main operator (Three) doesn't bother with it. 18:28:32 (It does make sense though... MFF2 is a standard for SMD devices that act like a SIM card) 18:28:58 One link further: https://developer.gemalto.com/documentation/mff2-sim-cards-specs-mim-quad 18:29:21 But AIUI, the idea was that it could also be implemented at a much smaller scale, even part of a SoC. 18:29:45 And then "eSIM form factor" begins to lose all its meaning. 18:29:47 O2 does, though, so maybe I could get my secondary "I need to have this because apparently international text messages are a mess" SIM card into the same phone as the main one. 18:30:05 -!- kkd has left ("WeeChat 2.9"). 18:33:41 Anyway, since gemalto is a SIM card manufacturer who wants to stay in business I can understand why they would not even mention alternatives to having a SIM chip on your device for implementing eSIMs. 18:38:06 I believe you can open any modern phone and find space for 10 more SIM cards 18:44:03 are you sure... they pack things pretty densely and fill up as much space as they can with the battery 18:44:27 " it's sitting prettily, not consuming much memory or CPU, hrm. I killed it and that didn't immediately disconnect it here" => ah great, this reminds me of when I was hosting the bot cbstream. 18:44:35 Tagged v0.0.0. Pushed rasel 0.0.0 to rubygems.org 18:45:16 the symptoms weren't the same, and I think it's a different bug, but it was just about as annyoing. it just hang without realizing it should do anything, even die from not having a connection to the IRC server. 18:45:19 -!- acedic[m] has joined. 18:45:46 nakilon: there are sites doing teardowns of mobile devices, that might change your opinion 18:45:55 and now fizzie has problems when the logs web service hangs. 18:47:56 fizzie: yes, that's what the SIMs that I buy are like, three parts, and the middle part *is* thinner, though you may only notice that if you look at it from the back side, where the front side is the one with the connectors towards the phone. 18:49:40 " I guess if they want to make them any smaller they'll need to change the standard, because 4FF is about the same size as the connector itself" => yes, there was already a version with a different connector, but I think it went out of use 18:50:42 " but that one is permanently soldered, right?" => I dunno, I assume that only happens in small devices. in large enough devices you put a socket under any fiddly thing that you solder with more than two legs. 18:53:20 " I suppose the idea of SIMs as carrier-trusted hardware is probably doomed anyway, since they have to be cheap to manufacture" => I don't think that argument works, because credit cards also have to be cheap too, but they're similarly supposed to be not copiable and only the credit card provider should be able to make one. 18:53:59 true 18:59:04 "Pages about specific languages should be added both to Category:Languages (as above) and to the Language_list" 18:59:09 why is there two places? 18:59:28 to split from "joke language list"? 19:00:29 -!- thefoxe has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:02:12 b_jonas: it's very uncommon to find IC sockets in consumer devices, regardless of size, and most ICs these days use surface-mount packages which don't really lend themselves to sockets 19:03:30 even setting aside size constraints (which are certainly present on a smartphone) a socket adds expense, both in terms of the part itself and the extra time/effort during assembly 19:04:21 surface mount ICs can be placed ridiculously fast by machines and then reflow-soldered all at once 19:06:00 most consumer devices are not meant to be repaired at the level of individual chips, maybe a whole board / subassembly but more likely you throw out the whole thing if it breaks 19:06:13 and we're well past the point of physically swapping out ROM ICs as a way of updating firmware 19:10:07 although I admit that credit cards, especially embossed ones, may in fact be much more expensive to manufacture than SIM cards, and I have no idea about their manufacturing costs, because banks and mobile phone service providers give them to you only in conjunction with a service, so they can charge you much more than it costs to make, or much less to incentivize people to always report stolen credit 19:10:13 cards and SIM cards 19:11:08 SIM cards in bulk can be pretty cheap 19:11:09 mm 19:11:28 nakilon: ah yes, I should add it to [[Language list]]. and I don't know why, there's no point to maintain both, it's just going by momentum and the two are probably significantly desynced by now. 19:11:37 I know a couple people who used them for shadytel stuff at toorcamp - bring a burner phone and you have phone service for the weekend 19:12:08 well, duration of the con, which is >weekend 19:12:30 nakilon: while we're there, is this language called RASEL or Rasel? I suspect it's RASEL and I just created the page with the wrong name. 19:12:42 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79458&oldid=79413 * B jonas * (+12) 19:13:14 kmc: true about consumer device repair 19:13:30 b_jonas I was about to create pages for the language and for myself 19:13:32 kmc, there's still a lot of devices that have easily swappable ROMs, but they're SPI/i2c flash 19:13:41 I'm registering an account, solving befunge captcha, lol 19:13:49 what kind of devices? 19:13:50 I've just read all the rules from Help page 19:14:21 calculators, other small embedded stuff 19:14:24 nakilon: ok, but I already created a stub at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Rasel . If it's called RASEL then I'll ask the wiki guys to rename it. 19:14:31 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nakilon * New user account 19:14:40 hmm, in fact I might be able to rename it myself. 19:14:48 maybe less so now than 5 years ago, but an eeprom programmer is still a very useful tool 19:14:49 what's the point of doing that instead of having a header or test points to reprogram the chip in situ? 19:15:21 lol, I used my own befunge interpreter -- feels like I've cracked my first captcha 19:15:36 multi-chip-modules are expensive, so if you can have one chip for CPU/RAM/other logic and another for flash, it's cheaper in the long run 19:15:49 b_jonas yeah should be all caps 19:16:00 (weird stuff often doesn't support internal flash. which is also changing) 19:16:03 ok, I'll move it to [[RASEL]] 19:16:07 thank you 19:16:08 i don't see what that has to do with using a socket or not 19:16:13 [[Special:Log/move]] move * B jonas * moved [[Rasel]] to [[RASEL]]: I created with wrong name, sorry 19:16:22 you can have an external SPI flash chip without socketing it 19:16:24 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79461&oldid=79458 * B jonas * (+0) 19:18:02 Esolang email confirmation email got spammed by gmail 19:18:05 -!- harha_ has joined. 19:21:03 oh, not socketed, but at least replaceable by the end-user 19:21:18 also some machines do socket it 19:27:28 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79462&oldid=79452 * Nakilon * (+167) machine asked me to prove I'm human 19:30:00 what I don't understand is why SIM cards still have to stay in the phone these days. it perhaps made sense in the 90s, and we have to make SIM cards and phones compatible with the old protocol for a while. but we could phase them to where you can insert the SIM card to a phone once, the SIM card generates a cryptographically signed statement that you put this SIM card to this phone, with a serial number 19:30:01 b_jonas the wiki says there are User pages and Profile pages 19:30:06 that increases for the same SIM card, then the phone just sends that data to the provider, and the provider only accepts the statement with the latest serial number that they've seen for each SIM card. then you could have just one SIM slot even in dual-SIM phones, or a SIM slot that overlaps with the memory card slot, or have the SIM reader be a cheap external accessory that you don't carry with the 19:30:12 phone, like the charger, as the phone manufacturer chooses. 19:30:14 I feel like your User page contains what is supposed to be on Profile page 19:31:43 but the SIM card is an active device in negotiations with the mobile phone network 19:31:54 not just a serial number 19:33:25 int-e: why does it have to be an active device? I mean, I could understand if it had to negotiate with the network *once*, and you couldn't bind it to a phone without that. 19:33:36 but why does it have to stay that way? 19:33:40 So if you go down that path facing mobile phone providers who like that shit becuse it's convenient for them... you'll likely end up with something resembling eSIM very very closely 19:34:08 it is that way because it has always been that way and the parties in power don't want to change it 19:34:30 ok... 19:35:25 so they're sort of like banks, to a lesser degree 19:35:44 oh, phone providers are exactly like banks 19:36:09 also: it's convenient to be able to move my SIM between phones if one breaks 19:36:36 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Quit: leaving). 19:36:48 Hooloovo0: in a different world that could be as simple as scanning a QR code 19:36:59 but we're not living in that fantasy world 19:37:09 I guess I meant not Profiles but People: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:People 19:38:06 I'm not sure. I feel like a hardware token is easier to manage, in the long run 19:38:21 (of course a QR code can be replicated very easily while a SIM card cannot (not easily)) 19:39:09 right ^ 19:42:11 Hooloovo0: yes, I do understand that, especially that SIM cards and memory cards are more resistant to water and shock than the phone or camera around them, that's why I suggested that the SIM card should still exist as a discrete resilient piece of hardware and be rebindable to a different phone by the consumer. int-e: well... I'd sort of prefer if, after I insert my SIM to a malicious phone then to 19:42:17 another phone, the former phone can't lie that I've reinserted the SIM to it as long as the latter phone has registered to the provider, 19:44:17 int-e: also I don't want every phone (including cheap ones and home alarms) to be required to have a good enough camera to read a QR code, but perhaps you mean that only as an alternative 19:46:08 b_jonas: yes it was supposed to be one of several ways that evolved over time 19:46:47 it could've started by requiring users to enter a 30 digit code into their phone the first time they use it. 19:47:13 right, makes more sense. I don't insist either that there can't be cheap phones that require the SIM card to be present all the time 19:53:38 and why there are User: pages in the Category:People? 19:54:12 maybe User pages were categorized as People to avoid duplication? 19:57:25 nah it's just users adding themselves to that category presumably because they feel they are people 19:58:32 the question is, do we care... 19:59:14 Users are people too? Sounds like some radical product design ideology to me. 20:00:03 I'm feeling lenient today... I'd say if the user page actually says what they did (languages designed or programs written) it can be in that category. 20:00:46 yeah, probably, also might have to be written in the "he is", not "I am" narrative 20:00:55 but I'm mostly indifferent; what I said is lazy 20:00:58 if classified as such 20:01:02 *categorized 20:01:48 The one that doesn't belong is User:Language 20:02:37 wtf 20:02:50 nakilon: no. User: pages are for users of the wiki; [[Category:People]] has main namespace pages, not user namespace pages, about people, mostly famous ones, who may or may not be wiki users. 20:03:58 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 20:04:24 just look at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:People for examples, there are only 67 pages in there, whereas there are about 1000 user pages 20:04:37 oh I was looking at a cached version apparently 20:05:28 in particular, ais523 and cpressey have both a user page and a main namespace page 20:05:36 b_jonas: so do you care enough to remove the category from the user pages that are in it? 20:05:54 int-e: no 20:06:00 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:06:51 hrm, can I see anywhere how old a cached version of a page is? 20:07:03 int-e: I just propagate this info because I once started to edit ais's user page, and then he asked me nicely to put that information to a main namespace People page instead 20:07:15 Cached time: 20191229022652 Cache expiry: 86400 20:07:23 that looks bogus, somehow 20:07:42 (from view-source:https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:People when not logged in) 20:08:06 int-e: you can always just try to go to ?action=purge of the page and then click on the button to regenerate the cache if you feel like it might be old 20:08:26 But I'd rather understand why it is so old. 20:08:46 I probably won't, but I can wish :P 20:12:20 b_jonas what is "planar array"? what would be a non-planar array? 20:12:28 Wow, kerning... 20:14:09 Taneb: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/doom.png 20:14:50 (I genuinely misread this when I saw it on the wiki.) 20:15:26 keming? 20:15:34 nakilon: exactly 20:16:02 nakilon: its domain is a square grid on the plane. I admit it's not a good phrasing that I added. 20:16:07 I like "Dr. Doom". 20:16:51 b_jonas, okay, I'll be editing it now, not sure if concurrent edits are possible 20:17:00 nakilon: the source code of unefunge or trefunge wouldn't be planar 20:17:12 Oooh 20:17:25 I just realized that it's deliberate. 20:17:38 I only knew the term "planar graph" 20:17:41 and most languages just take the source code as a linear string of characters, not as a planar array 20:17:46 is evil 20:17:58 yes, it's not a good terminology, feel free to edit it to something cleaner 20:18:05 and here I was trying to figure out how I misconfigured my browser 20:18:08 but what's the difference from "two-dimensional"? 20:18:12 I hope I have cleaner phrasing for my suggestion to make Befunge a featured language. 20:18:41 int-e lol 20:18:45 oerjan is evil. 20:19:10 (Or was? I hope "is" is still applicable. But we haven't seen him in a long time.) 20:20:59 Befunge's page says: Code is layed out on a two-dimensional grid of instructions 20:21:21 . o O ( "laid" ) 20:21:56 i still mix those two up 20:22:34 and why are there two space symbols between sentences? 20:23:03 "However, the difference is that while they once meant the same thing, one is no longer used as a word." 20:23:11 (about "laid" and "layed") 20:24:21 hehe https://www.npr.org/2020/04/28/846919788/typing-debate-do-you-type-2-spaces-between-sentences-or-1 20:25:12 ah yes, for Befunge I write "where code is stored in a two-dimensional grid of instructions, each encoded by an ASCII character" 20:25:20 https://grammarist.com/style/spaces-between-sentences/ blames it on typewriters and says it should be laid to rest. 20:25:29 looks a bit better 20:25:53 int-e: that opinion is disputed. I like double-spacing. 20:26:35 Emacs's auto fill agrees with having 2 spaces. I should configure it to not do that. 20:26:47 b_jonas: ITYM "that opinion is disputed. I like double-spacing." 20:27:20 int-e: nah, on IRC I often use a less formal style, where I don't bother with consistent capitalization or punctuation 20:27:30 I dislike it; the . is narrow enough to give the space following it a wider appearance. 20:28:03 admittedly I'm also not consistent in double-spacing sentences in places where I wrote somewhat more properly 20:28:05 But as with so many things this is a matter of habit and (implied, really) taste, not one of right or wrong. 20:28:34 in case of Mediawiki, those spaces will be collapsed by HTML rules anyway, so the distinction doesn't matter all that much 20:28:37 [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79463&oldid=79459 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) Stbu 20:29:05 my source code comments have both single-spaced and double-spaced style 20:32:58 I suppose it's the job of OS font rendering to put enough space between . and letter when there is space char in between 20:33:54 oh no, someone has edited the page _-- 20:34:34 ah, it's fine 20:46:28 wow the number of new languages each year is growing https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Categories 20:48:39 I'm surprised, kind of 20:49:02 I mean it's easy to make a derivative language, but... huh 20:49:10 nakilon: they're only growing if you count every page that calls itself a language. the number of *interesting* and novel languages isn't really growing. 20:49:19 I mean their rate of creation isn't growing. 20:49:25 right 20:51:39 I wonder if it's possible to track them making a list of "innovative languages" that would have to introduce new feature not seen in languages before them 20:52:33 nakilon: I recommend the approximation to take https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ais523 and multiply it by a factor of between 2 to 6. 20:53:12 admittedly that is not a good approximation 20:53:22 because how many ideas ais has varies a bit 20:56:12 btw, Russian Wikipedia has a category Users Who Use IRC 20:56:47 there are several dozens of users there that is supposed to match those who can be contacted in the IRC channel here on Freenode 20:57:00 you could have the same 20:58:00 to be precise: "Категория:Википедия:Участники IRC-канала wikipedia-ru" 21:03:00 [[Arrows]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79464&oldid=65721 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-23) wip 21:13:09 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79465&oldid=79303 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-24) More aggressive shortening 21:20:48 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79466&oldid=79465 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-212) hm 21:23:58 -!- adminv has changed nick to zeroed. 21:28:34 the most interesting stuff I've read today on the wiki 21:28:38 "Using a stapler, the fork is multiplied by the sauce and the result assigned to the fork using a drinking glass. " 21:29:02 nakilon: that's about https://esolangs.org/wiki/Efghij I think 21:29:07 yep 21:29:19 how do you remember its name 21:29:35 nakilon: it's linked from my user page 21:29:39 oh, it's the alphabet order 21:29:54 well yes, but which part of the alphabet? 21:30:00 I found it from the category of languages that have no code 21:37:11 is there a convenient representation of integers for intercal if you want to use those integers as indexes that you use to index arrays with, but you only increase or decrease them one at a time, and equality compare them, never subtract or add or less-than compare them? 21:39:32 I don't know. 21:40:01 this would have to be unambiguous, unlike that other interesting representation where you represent an integer as the difference of two ordinary integers (or the difference of an ordinary integer from twice another ordinary integer), so that you always access the same element of the array for the same integer index 21:44:13 -!- sprocklem has joined. 21:50:38 -!- imode has joined. 22:01:57 [[Depend]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79467 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1363) Add Depend 22:02:54 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79468&oldid=79461 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* D */ +[[Depend]] 22:03:36 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79469&oldid=79414 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) /* Languages */ +[[Depend]] 22:05:37 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79470&oldid=79466 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Ini */ m 22:08:54 -!- TheLie has joined. 22:10:04 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:14:52 -!- TheLie has joined. 22:39:45 -!- Arcorann_ has joined. 22:53:32 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 23:07:46 [[User:Nakilon]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79471 * Nakilon * (+94) Created page with "Hello, I made [[RASEL]]. You can find me with the same nickname in IRC:Freenode and Telegram." 23:08:48 is RASEL Turing complete? I don't have a clue in these terms 23:16:01 [[RASEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79472&oldid=79463 * Nakilon * (+2154) removed things that are already described in the article 'fungeoid'; added infobox proglang, instructions table, two basic examples 23:16:26 also maybe it applies to https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Push-down_automata as Befunge does 23:17:47 I'll add some neat examples of using the 'a' instruction later 23:21:50 the 0.0.0 gem version had a bug of not having executable in it ) I've pushed the 0.0.1 version so now usage examples from README should work 23:36:33 btw, guys, there was a website with a game on Flash where you had to program a robot, and I can't find it 23:37:24 the language was short and you could pass functions into functions 23:39:59 We (as in, the channel collectively) played that one game slightly like that (which a HTML version too), but I don't think you could "pass functions into functions" in it, it was much simpler than that. 23:40:03 apparently the game for https://adventofcode.com/2020/day/15 is http://oeis.org/A181391 23:40:40 it was like a Lightbot in that thing that there is a field and you have to write instructions to only get out of this exact wield with walls, avoiding them and reach the exit 23:41:16 and solutions were ranked by the length of the code that as I said could be recursive 23:41:25 Yeah, that seems to be a common theme. This one had stars you needed to collect, and stay on a certain-colored square. 23:42:10 nakilon: it is Turing-complete, yes, because you can simulate any of these darned finite state control machines with a single cyclic queue of a fixed alphabet in it 23:42:34 or... wait 23:42:38 RoboZZle, that's what we played a bunch. 23:42:41 I'm not so sure now 23:44:11 ok, different attempt of proof. you can implement any [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] program in it 23:47:01 whenever the simulated machine stores something into a register, you push it onto the stack and keep it there forever (or push the whole register set if you prefer). you can make a loop with the directional instructions, you can load the value of any register because you know how deep it is in the stack, so you push a constant then use the a instruction to get it from the stack. then we just have to 23:47:07 verify that you can do addition, subtraction, multiplication, and integer division, if the two arguments are on the stack. 23:48:12 or let's say, you can do those operations if you know how to push each argument to the stack 23:49:28 so say >x> pushes the left argument and >y> pushes the right argument, then subtraction is >xy->, addition is >x0y-->, multiplication is >x1y//>, 23:49:28 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 23:50:04 and integer division is >xy/:1%-> if I understand correctly how Rasel works 23:50:12 does that make sense? 23:50:34 this uses the fact that Rasel can store arbitrary precision integers on the stack of course 23:54:41 if you use the fungeoid control flow too, I think it can even implement a machine with arbitrary finite state control and arithmetic and comparisons on several bigint registers: this time you do push the full register file to the top of the Razel stack after each simulated instruction, and use like >xy-?v> to branch down if x is lessequal to y 23:56:03 you may still ask if Rasel is still turing-complete without using arbitrary size integers (or rationals, whatever), and I don't know the answer, but if it's not, then it would be with a bunch of extra registers, or with instructions that rearrange values in a top window of the stack 23:56:42 I suspect it's already Turing-complete but don't want to bother proving it 2020-12-17: 00:03:52 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 00:28:41 fizzie that game was black and white 00:29:13 searched both places where screenshots of mine are archived for years but could not find it ( I'm sire I had the screenshot 00:32:14 I guess it's now only deep in my Google Plus Takeout archive 00:35:14 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:55:15 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:59:41 02:50:12 does that make sense? 00:59:42 yes 01:24:51 -!- sftp has quit (*.net *.split). 01:24:51 -!- sparr has quit (*.net *.split). 01:24:51 -!- dnm has quit (*.net *.split). 01:25:59 -!- sparr has joined. 01:30:10 -!- sftp has joined. 01:30:10 -!- dnm has joined. 01:43:18 Hmm, is this a cfunge bug, or am I just misinterpreting something. 01:44:04 Unless I'm mistaken, its & instruction is, given the input "0\n", also consuming the newline from the input, which I think it shouldn't do. 01:46:43 https://github.com/VorpalBlade/cfunge/blob/master/src/input.c#L167 I guess that's an intentional choice, but I don't think that's how it should work. 01:47:06 "Decimal input reads and discards characters until it encounters decimal digit characters, at which point it reads a decimal number from those digits, up until (but not including) the point at which input characters stop being digits, or the point where the next digit would cause a cell overflow, whichever comes first." No special rules about newlines. 01:49:40 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 01:51:05 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:51:05 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 02:03:44 -!- stux|RC-only has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:05:29 -!- stux|RC-only has joined. 02:10:43 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:24:49 -!- xelxebar has joined. 02:32:35 https://paste.ee/p/4nJ0t 02:32:45 GCC is so wacky 02:33:34 I don't understand how it gets the correct value for y, but not x 02:33:53 or why it doesn't give any error 02:39:24 did GCC implement closures, but only one level of nesting or some shit? 02:44:54 what is this bizarro code tdnh 02:45:49 The C syntax for this thing is so hard to read when you don't use typedefs. 02:46:48 it's a uhh (int) -> (int) -> (int) -> struct rectprism 02:48:10 I see. 02:57:18 tcc and clang reject this 02:57:36 Right, nested functions are a GNU extension. 02:58:01 OK, I'm looking at the code now and I certainly wouldn't expect this to work. 02:58:12 f is only valid inside some_func. 02:58:33 You can't just return it and have the closure work anywhere. 02:59:06 The closure has a pointer into some_func's stack frame. 03:01:53 I think about making ~ and & also "work as trampoline or not" on EOF instead of reversing 03:16:52 fizzie btw my unfinished befunge-98 implementation has a bug around that -- it eats one char after integer 03:18:03 I fixed it in RASEL -- good thing Ruby provides ungetbyte method to push bytes back to the stream ..D 03:19:34 https://github.com/Nakilon/rasel/blob/fa758b9944e8ebd942c00b61be0c7476fe4aac4f/lib/rasel.rb#L77 03:36:50 [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79473&oldid=79222 * Razetime * (+44) /* Looks Like */ 03:37:12 [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79474&oldid=79473 * Razetime * (+0) /* Looks Like */ 04:18:00 nakilon: I like the idea that ? now jumps forward one or two cells. this way you can write arbitrary control flow in one dimensional code by like pushing a number then ?j 04:19:09 well, more like pushing a distance, then pushing the tested number, then ?j 04:36:58 the reversing ? kind of allowed that too, but yeah, it's good to keep the pointer going the same direction 04:50:38 nakilon: hmm, that's true, though then you basically need a trampoline 04:51:23 and I guess I should say ?j$ so it discards the jump length if the branch isn't taken 05:00:41 anyway, I think RASEL can indeed simulate an arbitrary finite control machine with single queue of finite alphabet. represent the alphabet with small natural numbers. if a symbol is on the top of the stack, you can do a big case distinction on it like >:?v1-:?v1-:?v1-:?v1-?v> . between states of the original machine, the stack shall contain the queue and then the length of the queue plus one over it. to 05:00:47 push a symbol A, you can just >A\1+> . to shift a symbol and test it, you do like >:a :?v1-:?v1-:?v1-:?v1-?v> 05:00:55 and to initialize an empty queue, just >1> 05:01:04 so you don't in fact need bigints 05:03:00 and this still works in single-line code, you just have to you just do L\?j$ to put the jump distance L under the number tested 05:05:17 but it's still not clear to me if you can do an arbitrary computation in RASEL without leaving junk on the stack forever 05:06:33 all the constructions I mentioned, both this one with a queue, and the one with integer registers (and, as a special case, blindfolded artithmetic, or state machine with a fixed number of stacks of finite alphabets) do leave junk on the stack. 05:10:31 if you added a second memory (outside the stack) with random access load, store, and sbrk instructions, that would of course solve all the problems and make this something to which you can compile normal programs with a random-access memory. 05:11:15 you could use the bottom of that extra memory as registers that you can load and store conveniently, which lets you rearrange the top of the stack 05:11:24 and you could use the rest as just read-writable memory 05:12:04 but that perhaps would be a different or less esoteric language. 05:12:49 one that's more suitable for golfing at least though 05:20:55 KISS++ 05:21:36 kissat++ 05:21:49 猫++ 05:26:58 OK, I'm back at it and immediately not sure what to do on the island with the broom. 05:27:41 No, the oar. 05:27:43 The big spoon. 05:27:51 ...there are too many landmarks... was there a broom? or an oar? 05:28:32 (Apparently I've seen 139 landmarks) 05:28:57 It's at 314,214. 05:30:02 I wish the map when traveling had coordinates 05:31:36 ah, there 05:32:23 int-e: does pressing F3 reveal your coordinates perhaps? :) 05:34:57 why f3 05:35:41 shachaf: may require some thought :P 05:35:47 minecraft. 05:35:52 int-e: Oh, I already went elsewhere. 05:36:02 I realized there was a footprint area nearby that I didn't finish. 05:37:27 But it is solvable from just that island, it sounds like. 05:38:04 imode: ah one of the games that I will never play because there's only two outcomes, both bad 05:38:28 imode: 1) I hate it. 2) I get addicted and spend the next half year solely on minecraft 05:39:12 Did you play Factorio? 05:39:18 nope 05:42:25 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 05:45:22 int-e: press F3 for that in Minecraft 05:45:29 ah yes, imode already told you 05:46:08 and I guess that makes sense, int-e 06:12:50 Oh man, this is definitely a glitch in how it displays this interaction. 06:14:54 hey maybe you've found something I don't know... I don't remember glitches 06:15:21 I mean, it just snaps the tree from one place to another instead of moving continuously. 06:15:22 not even animation glitches 06:15:36 Oh, whoa, I'm 278 islands in and only now I realize that you can stop onto short rocks? 06:16:00 yes that was a surprise to me as well 06:16:29 In the "non-spoiler" review of the game, it distinguished between short rocks and tall rocks. 06:16:36 right 06:16:37 And I've been wondering why. I guess this it why. 06:17:59 and it's a great twist because it gives you a pretty different flavor of puzzles 06:18:20 This puzzle didn't even use it. 06:18:57 Yeah, they are doing a good job of introduces the mechanic first as an accident, then make use of it in later puzzles 06:19:03 shachaf: do you mean "step onto" or "stop on"? 06:19:16 b_jonas: the former 06:26:01 -!- arseniiv has joined. 06:28:49 I'm not sure what distinction you're making. 06:29:12 Short rocks are elevated, and if you're also elevated, you can step onto them. 06:34:36 shachaf: you made a typo 06:34:52 Oh, now I see it. 07:00:30 Now I'm puzzled by 303,102 07:03:26 let me guess, it's another puzzle 07:06:02 There's a tall tree, a short tree, and a short rock, if that clears it up. 07:08:20 sounds like every 6th island :) 07:09:10 (I'd have to start up the game and I'm refusing this time) 07:09:49 Oh no, I didn't mean to make you start up the game. 07:09:59 I thought you had it up already before, since you said 139 landmarks. 07:10:40 and then I quit 07:11:10 the main issue I have is that they made finding islands really inconvenient 07:11:34 even navigating by coordinates is a process of trial and error 07:12:00 It's https://slbkbs.org/tmp/2020-12-16-231107_3840x2160.png if you're curious 07:13:16 ah, yeah, that one looks fun 07:15:58 50 moves or so :) 07:18:08 Oh, wait, this was so easy. 07:18:12 I was so close the whole time. 07:18:39 I should set up a proxy for myself that resizes images 07:19:52 I could presize them. 07:20:03 Why do you want them smaller? 07:20:22 because the 3MB download takes noticable time for me 07:20:50 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 07:20:52 Aha. 07:21:18 Too bad every web page has 3MB of JavaScript these days. 07:21:19 and all the information is still perfectly visible at 25% of the size 07:21:28 I also disable JS. 07:21:34 Almost everywhere. 07:21:35 It's being upscaled from 1920x1080 anyway. 07:22:00 Did you know that in JavaScript, "for (let i = 0; i < n; i++) { BODY }" is different from "{ let i; for (i = 0; i < n; i++) { BODY } }"? 07:22:07 Not all web pages have 3MB of JavaScript; some have less, and a few have none at all. 07:23:45 zzo38: oh really I didn't know 07:24:04 zzo38: Some also have more. 07:24:37 Yes, some have more. I don't know how much is the average 07:26:18 I would try to avoid it by promoting the use of plain text, simple HTML (when plain text won't do), NNTP, Gopher, simpler VMs in case you need one anyways, etc 07:27:59 zzo38: But I want my traffic to be encryptd. I don't think Gopher supports that. 07:29:25 You could use Gopher or any other protocol with TLS, I suppose, but I don't know which implementations will do that. Gemini supports encryption, though. 07:30:07 Of course HTTP is still useful too, but there are too many complicated things and stupid things that should be avoided hopefully even when doing so 07:33:53 -!- lambdabot has quit (Quit: brb). 07:36:21 -!- lambdabot has joined. 07:55:37 -!- TheLie has joined. 08:01:57 Now I'm puzzled by 347,95 08:02:57 -!- Arcorann_ has joined. 08:04:40 I'm wondering whether there's some inter-island thing going on. 08:05:29 it's not unheard of 08:06:10 Hmm, maybe I need to get to the other place first... 08:06:28 But that doesn't seem possible, and the footprints are on this island. 08:06:36 It's in the mushroom area. 08:06:42 (I did not check where that is, I'm speaking in general) 08:06:55 (Of course) 08:15:29 . o O ( Sometimes there's a remote chance of making progress. ) 08:15:50 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 08:18:31 -!- zzo38 has joined. 08:19:59 I've seen almost nothing use the mechanic that trees with leaves are different from trees without leaves. 08:20:04 Maybe a couple of puzzles early on. 08:22:11 So far I'm at 302 islands and 0 friends. 08:36:51 I've only seen very few uses of that mechanic as well. 08:37:15 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:37:18 possible as few as one 08:37:25 *possibly 08:37:43 there's another mechanic I've only seen once 08:39:57 OK, now I'm in a snowy area that has you walking on rocks. 08:43:27 what an uplifting experience 08:45:00 One problem is that it's approximately impossible for me to figure out the "parity" of a log a few moves ahead. 08:45:07 I'm so bad at that kind of thing. 08:45:47 if in doubt try it out 09:01:46 OK, that's enough for tonight. 09:01:47 330 islands. 09:02:17 getting there 09:46:22 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:52:12 -!- rain1 has joined. 09:53:23 10:20:22 because the 3MB download takes noticable time for me 09:53:34 that screemshot just had to be in jpeg somehow 09:54:04 10:21:18 Too bad every web page has 3MB of JavaScript these days. 09:54:10 not every, only Youtube, and it gets cached 09:54:31 nakilon: it's a 3840x2160.png 09:55:22 what is that game at all? 09:56:05 A Monster's Expedition 09:57:23 looks like sokoban 09:57:25 nakilon: Nothing gets cached because I use new private browsing sessions all the time. 09:57:34 it's loosely based on Sokoban 09:57:41 and yeah, not only that could be in JPEG, the game state is actually 5x5 cells 09:57:45 but you know over trees to travel from island to island 09:58:04 It's just a screenshot, not a hyperoptimized transfer of state. 09:58:27 ugh 09:58:29 screenshots don't have to be in png 09:58:33 know over -> knock over 09:59:07 nakilon: what else could they be; PCX doesn't have enough colors 09:59:14 BMP is to micro-softy 09:59:26 why do you make private youtube browsing sessions? 09:59:32 there is nothing illegal on youtube 10:00:21 Is BMP Microsofty? 10:02:02 pretty sure it first appeared in Windows 3.x 10:02:41 Or even Windows 2.0 but who ever even used that... 10:02:46 Sure, that's the origin of the format, but the format itself? 10:02:56 It was used heavily in OS/2 as well. 10:03:08 https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/BMPfileFormat.png 10:03:23 I still only see BMP files in Windows. 10:04:33 In practice most of the pictures I have are PNG and JPEG anyway. 10:04:56 And it makes very much sense for screenshots to default to PNG. 10:05:50 Presumably people could do way better than JPEG nowadays for lossy image compression? 10:06:06 They can. 10:07:36 There's JPEG2000 which is burdened by patents... I suppose webp is the latest attempt to overcome JPEG? 10:08:10 it does not make sense to screenshot games in png 10:08:53 most of the games use jpeg by default in their built-in screenshoting feature 10:09:02 because they realise this thing 10:11:08 unfortunately unlike jpeg the webp is being changed everyday -- they patch the format and the CLI webp converter tools become incompatible even with Google Chrome 10:17:18 I didn't use a built-in screenshotting feature. 10:17:37 I just have one screenshot button, and it shoots the exact pixels that are on screen. 10:17:41 Why would I have more than that? 10:18:05 jpeg does not mean it takes another number of pixels 10:19:14 -!- TheLie has joined. 10:19:51 jpeg is not a good default for screenshots 10:20:18 it is 10:21:36 that's why Steam makes screenshots in jpeg too 10:21:41 screenshots should be lossless by default, to preserve small details and text 10:21:45 I guess 10:22:11 games don't have small details and text 10:22:18 they are games 10:22:24 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDNywILJMGg 10:22:25 uh, sure they do? 10:22:28 depending on the game 10:22:29 . o O ( somebody has never playeed TIS-100 ) 10:22:30 Silicon Zeroes 10:22:33 game 10:22:41 this makes no sense 10:22:58 I believe a fairly large fraction of games contain dialogue 10:23:04 there are many games that feature lots of text 10:23:22 13:08:10 it does not make sense to screenshot games in png 10:23:38 where did I say here that it makes no sense to screenshot small details and text in png? 10:23:40 games != irc 10:23:48 games != websites 10:23:51 now if the only games you play are fast-paced games rendered with a 3D engine you're probably right 10:23:52 Games often have small details and text 10:23:53 games != terminal logs 10:24:05 many games have small details and text 10:24:19 where you probably want crisp screenshots :p 10:24:34 doesn't really matter though 10:24:41 A lot of games also have large regions of flat colours, which I believe is very suitable for PNG 10:24:45 would make sense to have it be a setting I guess 10:24:50 "there are many games that" does not negate the fact that most of the games don't have it 10:24:53 there is no logic 10:24:55 Besides, even for 3D games I'd prefer lossless screenshots; I can always compress them myself later. 10:24:57 Most of the games I play do 10:25:24 Why do you care what other people use to take screenshots of things to show to still other people? 10:25:28 guys, I guess you just were never really making screenshots 10:25:59 and don't realise that even if the game has 75% of screen scape of one flat color it still does not make png screenshot smaller 10:26:11 *75% of screen space 10:26:36 -!- imode has quit (Quit: Batsharks are people too!). 10:26:46 Again, why do you care 10:27:09 because in fact the screenshots you were sharing today were not from TIS, they were from the average game 10:27:11 hum 10:27:15 Regardless, we were discussing a default of builtin OS functionality, and there's simply no argument to be made for using JPEG in that context. 10:27:18 and it was 3mb while could be 300kb 10:27:34 this also depends on the lossiness of the jpeg, no? 10:27:50 default OS functionality has nothing to do with png, it takes shots in bmp 10:28:08 maybe I'm missing some context here, idk 10:28:25 nakilon: that depends on which OS you're using. Many of us do not use Windows 10:28:27 Who said anything about the number of pixels? I care about the content of the pixels. 10:28:40 it's the job of additional software to convert the clipboard to png or jpeg and you usually have a choice that you may want to do carefully 10:28:41 I only have one screenshot button. I don't really want a different kind of screenshot for games. 10:28:52 Screenshots on my computer take PNG by default 10:29:15 Taneb pretty sure every OS stores clipboard as bitmap 10:29:46 If I press my print screen button, it saves a PNG in my Pictures directory. 10:29:52 I have done no configuration to set this up 10:29:53 guys, you confuse all the things with each other 10:30:03 computer, keyboard, software, clipboard 10:30:11 This is the default on my OS and desktop environment 10:30:34 I still don't know why you care so much about this 10:30:40 You're the one bringing all these things up. I have no clipboard. Screenshots get saved into the screenshot directory. 10:30:43 looking at the screenshots I've apparently taken in steam, I think I'm happier with all four as png's than jpg's :p 10:30:44 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 10:30:54 I set up my own screenshot thing which is better than the system I've seen in any OS by default. 10:31:23 You press Print Screen, and it shows a little modal menu at the top of the screen, and then you press w to screenshot a window, r to screenshot the whole screen, or s to select a region. 10:31:43 Instead of memorizing Alt+PrtScr or Cmd+Shift+5 or some nonsense like that. 10:32:29 neat 10:32:32 so the thing is that you just don't care how your tools are configured 10:32:42 shachaf clearly cares 10:32:50 I don't know why you care about how I take screenshots 10:33:07 and in result you throw screenshots that weight 3mb and have only 25 bytes of meaningfull data in it 10:33:09 Perhaps the thing you care about is starting arguments? 10:33:18 I have a question... what's a clipboard :P 10:33:29 I know about active selections 10:33:37 if there was no problem in it there would be no message in this chat: "hey, why your screenshot is 3mb" -- it was not me who said that 10:33:51 int-e: It's one of the X11 selections. 10:33:55 so you are suffering from your own unwilling to learn about image formats 10:34:00 PRIMARY and CLIPBOARD are the two standard ones. 10:34:11 (sadly X11 *does* have a clipboard mechanism, and I always have to jump through hoops to work with software that uses it) 10:34:23 What is it about image formats that I haven't learned that you're saying I need to learn? 10:34:50 I think the real problem is that my screenshot was only 3 millibits, and that's not nearly enough information. 10:35:56 I uploaded a 3 MB screenshot because the thing I want by default -- when I don't think about it -- is a lossless reproduction of my screen. When I think about it I can switch to something else. 10:36:03 Why am I getting into this again? 10:36:11 nakilon: I may have complained about the size, but I still consider that to be *my* problem, not shachaf's. 10:36:26 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 10:36:42 Taneb: Speaking of images, I wrote a sonnet and got cat pictures! 10:36:48 -!- aaaaaa has joined. 10:36:50 shachaf: I saw on Twitter! It was a good sonnet 10:36:55 Cats are the cutest, huh? 10:36:57 int-e you can barely control how you obtain the data 10:37:07 it's a problem of data provider to provide good api, good formats 10:37:08 They sure are 10:37:15 nakilon: But I can. 10:37:24 我喜欢猫 10:37:38 he could use some better website integration, something that asks what format to use for sharing or convert automatically 10:38:09 Anche mi piacciono i gatti 10:38:12 nakilon: But it's bad style to expect others to solve your problems for you, unless you're paying for it. 10:38:35 in >99% of cases there would be nothing bad if his screenshot was converted on the website to jpeg for sharing 10:38:50 I'll solve your problems for you! 10:38:57 If you express them as 2SAT instances. 10:39:23 int-e he gave you the problem, it's his problem 10:39:49 /help ignore 10:39:56 he pressed the printscreen 10:40:52 Taneb: Remind me, are you into SAT solvers? 10:40:59 It seems like everyone is these days. 10:41:04 this is insane 10:41:08 shachaf: 2SAT is so limited... 10:41:27 send me all the pngs 10:41:38 I will look at them and devise 10:42:18 int-e: Hmm, OK, I'll let you use arbitrary Horn clauses. 10:42:49 Yay, I have used Horn clauses. 10:42:51 one of you is sharing a screenshot in not suitable format, another one highlights the problem and when I come to help solving it I get "stop arguing" themed responses 10:43:09 I too am confused what’s clipboard to do with all that. I have a little program which doesn’t leave anything in clipboard when it takes a shot 10:43:16 shachaf: I was for a while but I haven't been thinking about them for a while 10:45:29 nakilon: I think you're missing something about, I don't know, magnitude or weight or something. 10:45:57 arseniiv that program calls API of your OS that returns it in BMP or specified format, that program might be configurable or improved 10:46:11 Someone mentioned that 3MB was kind of big (and said they themselves wanted to take care of it for themselves, not even requested that anyone else do anything). 10:46:38 nakilon: yep it’s configurable and spews me out a png to a folder 10:46:50 no clipboard mess 10:46:52 I saw that, took it into account, and slightly adjusted my weights in the future. Maybe next time I'll resize or convert the image, or maybe I'll just think about it. 10:47:04 the size of content in internet isn't what the read requestor should care -- he can't compress it on the source 10:47:43 That's all that needed to happen here, for either party. It's not a binary thing that is either broken or solved, just a continuum of preferences and things that you can adjust a bit. 10:48:05 for now I personally have a pretty good internet access so I would be glad to download maybe even a bmp 10:48:06 So insisting that people adjust all sorts of things immediately with a particular solution you have in mind doesn't really help. 10:48:22 -!- aloril has joined. 10:48:47 and many people, I think, will be not against downloading bmp :) 10:49:01 I don't know whether you read what int-e said, but it was an idea about having a proxy that resizes images. Which is in the requester's control. 10:49:12 switching to using non optimal data formats just because you've got faster internet is the same wrong thing as starting making worse software with worse algorithms just because you've got faster computers 10:49:49 > 3840*2160*3 / 1024^2 10:49:50 "optimal" only makes sense in the context of optimizing something. What are you optimizing? 10:49:51 23.73046875 10:50:50 @metar koak 10:50:51 KOAK 171041Z 16009KT 3SM -RA BR SCT006 BKN010 OVC024 13/11 A2998 RMK AO2 P0007 T01330106 10:51:15 shachaf: one thing I've been thinking about is a SAT solver that aims to create as human-understandable proofs as possible 10:51:42 That's interesting. What would those look like? 10:52:00 do you realise the price you pay for internet would be several times smaller if people were not playing 4k videos on their broken glass 720p phones turned on behind their backs while they are cooking? 10:52:09 . o O ( brain saturation ) 10:52:30 nakilon: that's likely false 10:52:55 I think all the clauses would have to be named, and the solver would report things like "By clause xyz, we know that variable t must be false" 10:53:22 the internet is overpolluted by data that isn't used and we pay for all the infrastructure for it 10:53:25 nakilon: the technology you're talking about is only being deployed because people actually use the bandwidth. 10:53:57 effective data barely gets larger but the price stays the same let's say $20 per months no matter how better the hardware gets 10:54:07 because people think "hey I've got so much room, lets trash it" 10:54:10 It'd need to try and find a shallow proof when it needs to speculate, but I'm not sure which dimension it'd need to be shallow 10:54:36 not even knowing that when they buy the "100mbit internet" it's only measured in peak 10:54:41 In an alternative history where nobody ever dared to use bandwidth you might be spending $20 a months plus a fixed rate per minute on dual ISDN lines. 10:54:55 or more, $20 seems rather low 10:56:37 I pay $8 10:56:45 in not the most technologically developed country 10:56:52 Taneb: What sorts of proofs are you thinking of applying this to? 10:56:56 so you can realise how much you overpay 10:57:06 I wonder whether you'd rather have something higher-level than SAT for expressing things. 10:57:06 because of people watching 4k with their backs 10:57:09 shachaf: mostly little puzzle games like what's in sgtpuzzles 10:57:19 Or at least, that's what inspired me down this line of thought 10:57:23 Aha. 10:57:35 Human solutions to these puzzles often look pretty different from computer solutions. 10:57:54 nakilon: that's way too simplistic. the rates are in a large part arbitrary and determined by available income of the people 10:58:03 it's not a free market, by and large 10:58:17 Since humans are bad at backtracking, so they try to minimize it and find very short paths to contradictions. 10:58:28 people will spend all their income without need getting anything for that 10:58:51 shachaf: humans will often prove lemmas that aren't expressed in a couple of clauses (which DPLL might learn) 10:59:32 I think some puzzles are just not particularly human-solvable, even if they're in NP. 10:59:47 Since "having a human solution path" is a stronger constraint than "having a solution". 11:00:12 Another thing is that a human doesn't just want to satisfy the puzzle, they want to satisfy it uniquely, right? 11:00:42 shachaf: well, it depends on the human :) 11:01:10 Sure, I'm proposing some model of what it means to be human-solvable, or human-fun. 11:01:22 A lot of these puzzles have a unique solution by design (and I have taken that as an assumption in solving puzzles in the past) 11:01:22 speaking for myself, yes, I'm happier knowing that a solution is unique 11:01:42 Looking at some advanced Sudoku solving patterns... not all people care. 11:02:06 I posted another sudoku: https://logic-masters.de/Raetselportal/Benutzer/eingestellt.php?name=shachaf 11:02:15 Oh no. 11:02:17 I don't think it's that interesting. 11:02:19 What did I do. 11:02:42 In some sense it's just an easier version of the 6-12 sudoku that int-e already solved. 11:03:01 fizzie: somehow, today's AoC task doesn't look very twisty :P 11:03:06 why do you care about how the puzzle is solved, any solution will do, we have cool intel cpus in 2020 11:03:18 just bruteforce it 11:03:28 int-e: I *just* regenerated the plot, like, five minutes ago. 11:03:30 nakilon: it's called an intellectual challenge 11:03:35 Of the four sudoku puzzles I posted, one of them can be solved entirely with unit propagation. 11:03:56 Which maybe counts as extremely boring? 11:04:02 And no, it's not very twisty. 11:04:29 I just press the button "download the solution" and it downloads and I have it 11:04:30 People seem to struggle with it though. 11:05:27 Also, now I've got an actual wrapper script to do the "fetch any new leaderboards, if there were any update the dataframe and redraw the plots"; http://ix.io/2Ip8 11:05:43 It doesn't scp the results or run with cron yet, though. 11:06:04 Also, it makes the assumption that if it's more than 2 hours after midnight Eastern time, it's okay to download the day's leaderboard. 11:06:26 So if they do a trickier puzzle that takes more than 2 hours for the 100th person to solve, that might fail. 11:06:39 Well, that assumption has worked out fine so far. 11:09:00 It's a historically pretty sound assumption, violated by 6 days out of 142. 11:09:22 how many of those were in 2015? 11:09:49 2015 days 1, 19 and 22; 2016 day 11; 2018 day 15; and 2019 day 22. 11:10:50 On which days the 100th person took approximately 186, 232, 183, 164, 143 and 124 minutes to get two stars, respectively. 11:12:27 Oh yeah, I remember wondering on day 22 last year why it was so hard :P 11:12:52 you may do again those messages that I assume to be rude, such as "you are looking for arguing" or "/help ignore" but I'm still amazed by how bad the idea is to make an end consumer of IRC screenshot links to setup and configure some proxy for his personal internet browsing instead of storing the content in a proper format in the first place, 11:12:53 because he won't know he wants that piece of data compressed until he click the link and see that "oh it's that game screenshot" so he'll have to switch all his way of browsing the internet to a proxy solution and then switch to uncompressed format and redownload the link again if he sees "ah, this has details I should now turn the proxy off" just 11:12:53 because some people are lazy to find a better way of sharing screenshots 11:13:23 nakilon: nobody is making me do anything here 11:13:25 (tell me if the message didn't fit the irc limit if you care) 11:19:48 -!- LKoen has joined. 11:30:28 shachaf: I am not very good at these fancy sudokus 11:30:38 I'm not too great at regular sudokus, come to that 11:31:17 The middle two are easier than the other two. 11:31:19 Taneb: the fancy ones may be easier than the regular ones because they rely less on obscure patterns that only sudoku experts have internalized 11:31:46 That's also plausible. 11:31:51 (And I'm not a Sudoku expert.) 11:31:54 The constraints for all of these puzzles are very strong. 11:32:06 With no clues, I think the most recent one has 288 solutions. 11:32:15 And the others were also in the range of hundreds. 11:34:49 -!- rain1 has joined. 11:42:45 Isn't a true Sudoku puzzle must have only one solution? 11:43:44 aaaaaa: yes, but (to me) it still feels awkward to rely on that information without verification 11:49:18 hello 11:50:03 a pen and paper puzzle should have a unique solution that can be reached through deduction alone 11:50:40 but there is debate about whether or not the solver should exploit uniqueness to make deductions 11:53:00 "deduction" means you find a satisfying assignment, and then you rule that one out, and then it's UNSAT, right? 11:53:50 shachaf: assuming X, you can show that there is not exactly one solution. Can you conclude not X? 11:54:17 Sure, I know the uniqueness thing you mean. 11:54:40 In some puzzles it's very blatant and happens all the time. 11:54:54 With sudoku it's kind of rare but still happens. 12:00:14 -!- spruit11 has quit (Quit: leaving). 12:10:33 -!- spruit11 has joined. 12:18:56 it's very interesting imo 12:19:39 I saw a sudoku variant that said: Solve this sudoku such that the highlighted cells, taken on their own, are enough for a unique solution. 12:20:19 ooph 12:20:37 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:21:41 feed it to a QBF solver :/ 12:22:41 How many quantifiers do you need? Just two, right? 12:22:57 exists ... forall, one alternation 12:23:08 I think all the SMT solvers do exists-forall nowadays. 12:23:37 Which is stretching the meaning of SMT a bit. 12:38:22 https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/irrationalconcepts/oops-all-edges <-- don't know if this is relevant, but it is amusing (maybe not for the solver) 13:11:29 is your RAM shielded... https://www.zdnet.com/article/academics-turn-ram-into-wifi-cards-to-steal-data-from-air-gapped-systems/ :-/ 13:14:08 Oh there's a list of more techniquess like it at the bottom, some of which I didn't know about. 13:14:15 int-e: but the PC must be trojaned before? 13:14:25 aaaaaa: for this, yep 13:15:00 this is what is called 'side-channel attack' 13:15:08 Cool, though 13:16:58 "play sound from power supply" 13:17:43 int-e: didn't get it too 13:18:35 Have anybody using Tarski's world? 13:18:44 Is it worth it? 13:18:57 aaaaaa: you can modulate the power consumption of a processor or GPU and that will affect electromagnetic transformers and potentially other elements on a PSU 13:19:27 aaaaaa: so I imagine that's the kind of thing they're doing 13:30:26 fungot: what should I do? 13:30:27 int-e: madam president, the fnord of older civilisations, allow me to make a strong commitment to the aim and objectives of the lisbon target, that is of course a large number of juvenile fish caught. if this money is however coming entirely from national sources and include statistics from greece for the last time i take the view that little or nothing can be paid out or which biometric risks need to be discussed and that a co 13:31:16 that was pretty good 13:31:30 I'm almost sorry that it got cut off 13:32:18 -!- delta23 has joined. 13:34:11 Ah, the famous Lisbon target of catching a lotta fish. 13:36:07 -!- aaaaaa has quit (Quit: leaving). 13:36:08 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 14:11:31 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:11:51 -!- xelxebar has joined. 14:14:01 -!- rain1 has joined. 14:17:54 " I should set up a proxy for myself that resizes images" => set it up with three backends, one for each continents, so it only has to transmit the smaller image under the ocean. :-) 14:19:08 ...right 14:22:52 " I didn't use a built-in screenshotting feature. / I just have one screenshot button, and it shoots the exact pixels that are on screen. / Why would I have more than that?" => well, sometimes the screenshot feature built into a game could save an image that is a larger part of the level than fits to the screen and that you would scroll on the screen in-game and when viewing later 14:24:35 . o O ( isn't shooting screens rather expensive in the long run ) 14:30:31 I don't use any sort of OS built-in screnshot functionality. I make screenshots with the screenshot features built into GIMP or Irfanview, because if I take a screenshot, I always want to post-process it, like decide whether to keep or discard it, crop, possibly color reduce, possibly censor parts, occasionally stitch multiple screenshots, decide how to encode, decide the filename. You need a graphics 14:30:37 editor for some of that, and they can already do all the steps that come up, so there's no point to use anything else. 14:31:25 OS functionality made sense when all it did was read the characters from the video memory and send them to the line printer, and you didn't have the hardware to load a graphics editor program for that. 14:32:29 " send me all the pngs" => sorry, I refuse because I take most of them for work, and they may contain trade secrets 14:32:47 not even our trade secrets, but secrets of our customers and partners. 14:33:57 You can tell when [REDACTED INTERNAL TOOL] added a dark mode at a glance by looking at the overall luminance of my screenshot history. 14:34:07 Well, when I turned it on, not exactly when they added it. 14:35:05 Is there a standard web 3.11 API for detecting if the user prefers a dark theme or a light one? I imagine there must be. 14:35:32 Apparently it's a CSS media selector. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/@media/prefers-color-scheme 14:36:08 "If you have set privacy.resistFingerprinting to true, prefers-color-scheme preference is overridden to light." Tradeoffs, tradeoffs. 14:38:14 [[MiniStringFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79475&oldid=60958 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* See also */ m 14:38:27 " It'd need to try and find a shallow proof when it needs to speculate, but I'm not sure which dimension it'd need to be shallow" => maximum stack depth of when you try multiple values of a variable backtrackingly, after tail call optimization, I think. 14:38:43 [[PlusOrMinus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79476&oldid=78344 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* Original version */ m 14:41:27 [[MangularJS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79477&oldid=78014 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Stack class */ link 14:42:10 oh I missed that... depth is not necessarily a problem when it's all unit propagation or very shallow subproofs that fall into a pattern 14:42:27 [[Javagony Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79478&oldid=79116 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) Update 14:42:37 which I guess is similar to TCO 14:43:38 There's a related problem where you try to assess the difficulty of a puzzle to a human. 14:44:00 Which is probably harder because you have to account for experience somehow. 14:44:22 But maybe not significantly harder. 14:45:50 oh, while we're at puzzles, I'll just mention something I was idly wondering about 14:47:07 consider the following single-player game. the level is a maze that's a graph with rooms for vertices and (undirected) corridors for edges. one vertex is marked as the player's location, and one as the goal. 14:47:31 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:47:48 . o O ( Not quite Hunt the Wumpus ) 14:50:17 each edge has a door. doors come in triples: each door is marked with a pair of a name and a state, where the state is one of open, ajar, closed, and each pair can only occur at most once. you can't walk through a closed door, and you can walk through an open door without any side effect. but when you walk through an ajar door, then it changes to open, the open door with the same name shuts to closed, 14:50:23 and the closed door with the same name changes to ajar, simultaneously. states of the doors with different name don't change during that, and the names of doors never change. 14:51:52 -!- Arcorann_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 14:52:02 so... for each name, there are always three door, in a permutation of those three states? 14:52:11 three door*s* 14:52:53 solving this puzzle is clearly in PSPACE, but I'd like to know what computational complexity it has more preciesly. with doors I can simulate one-way corridors, and level crossings (in case you want a planar graph). I can also make a level that takes exponential number of steps to solve, using a simple binary counter. but I don't know if you can simulate general binary storage. 14:52:59 int-e: yes 14:53:58 int-e: and the three have a cyclic order, you can only pass through them in that order and not backwards, though you can pass through the same door multiple times without affecting that cyclic order, even if you pass through other doors between. and the cyclic order isn't quite enough, because the starting state has to be observed. 14:54:16 and of course you can put all the open doors in an unreachable area if you like 14:54:23 int-e: yes. 14:54:36 so the toggle mechanic is the most relevant 14:54:52 the other question that I'd like to know, besides computational complexity, is whether it's possible to make interesting puzzle levels from this, that is, ones that have only few doors and yet aren't trivial to solve. 14:55:20 int-e: no 14:55:27 oh wait 14:55:30 int-e: it's not a toggle mechanic, it's always a cyclic permutation of three 14:55:47 it's a cyclic shift, never mind 14:56:23 you can simulate a toggle where you have to pass two *directed* corridor-paths alternatingly, using multiple doors, if you wish 14:56:40 (A O C) 14:56:45 is that intentional? 14:56:45 [[Terse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79479&oldid=37471 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-71) Introduction, proper == 14:56:49 int-e: no 14:57:00 it's a fun coincidence then 14:57:02 yeah 14:57:23 a low entropy one though 14:57:24 makes it easier to remember 14:58:15 dunno 14:59:19 if not, I'd also like to know if you can make interesting puzzle levels from some extensions of this; and references for where something like this game is already known 14:59:27 .-A-.-C-.-O-. all with the same name is a directed edge (with some irrelevant extra state in the first door) :) 15:01:46 oh well, something to ponder... these kinds of things tend to take some time 15:01:53 int-e: I imagine it drawn more nethack-like: .#\#.#+#.#-#. where \ is an ajar door, + a closed door, - or | an open door in a horizontal or vertical corridor resp, and there's a letter close to each door next to the corridor that shows the names, plus there's color 15:02:58 and if those states really only have just two edges, then optionally draw them on one corridor without a room, like .#\##+##-#. 15:03:06 [[User:DGCK81LNN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79480&oldid=77358 * DGCK81LNN * (+640) 15:03:31 but still allow the player to stand in those virtual rooms, because in the general case you may want to stop and turn in any of those places 15:03:39 general case as in the names of the doors can differ 15:09:14 `` unidecode $'\u26c4' 15:09:15 ​[U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW] 15:09:19 Isn't that almost a contradiction? And why did I only know learn that exists, when http://unicodesnowmanforyou.com/ has been a thing for years. 15:10:28 `unidecode ⛄☃ 15:10:29 ​[U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW] [U+2603 SNOWMAN] 15:10:55 maybe it's plastic or chocolate 15:11:12 no snowwoman 15:12:06 `unidecode 🌨🏔 15:12:08 ​[U+1F328 CLOUD WITH SNOW] [U+1F3D4 SNOW CAPPED MOUNTAIN] 15:12:40 (I skipped the snowflakes and some kanji) 15:13:14 fizzie: I don't know what a snowman without snow is, but I feel repulsion towards the concept. I learned to ski as a small child, and a few times I had the terrible occasion to try these dry (i.e. without snow) ski pistes, where you ski on plastic tennis court floor with lubricants, and they're a really bad experience. I do admit that it's much cheaper than traveling to real ski pistes, so it's not just 15:13:20 pointless torture for children, but it's still torture. The dry piste is entirely flat with none of the interesting texture variations that a real snow terrain causes, and even besides that it feels bad. 15:14:26 `` unidecode $'\u26c7' # you also skipped 15:14:27 ​[U+26C7 BLACK SNOWMAN] 15:14:40 Which could just be a soot-covered one in the city. 15:15:56 fizzie: ah yes, and I assume you combine any of these basic snowman code points with gender symbols, skin tone modifiers, hairstyle modifiers, eyelash style modifiers, eye color modifiers, height modifiers, chin shape modifiers, nose shape modifiers, headgear modifiers, etc, to get more complex characters 15:16:08 The shapes my browser's choice of fonts have for SNOWMAN, SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW and BLACK SNOWMAN are all completely different. SNOWMAN is this outline, BLACK SNOWMAN is filled but still just a (different) black-and-white shape, and SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW is this coloured monstrosity. 15:16:27 and perhaps with some vegetable emoji code points too to get snowman with particular vegetables used as their nose 15:17:50 fizzie: perhaps the plain snowman is from smaller fonts and the others from huge fallback fonts, and perhaps one is rendered as an emoji by default and the others aren't. you could try to force the font and the emojiness if you wish. 15:18:03 emojis in unicode should be uninvented 15:18:27 unintroduced, unimplemented, burnt with fire 15:18:36 outroduced? 15:20:02 fizzie did you solve day 3 part 2? 15:20:59 I didn't touch day 3 yet (in Befunge-98). I've done days 1, 2, 5, 6 and first half of day 8. 15:20:59 I guess it needs rereading the stdin and so storing it 15:22:51 I imagine you *could* evaluate all five slopes at once as you go through it, though then you'd need to keep five counters at once (in addition to the current location). 15:23:25 I think for day 3 I couldn't decide whether it would be okay to use the `i` instruction or not. 15:23:50 how does the debugger you use look like? I see different images in google image search 15:24:11 I just do ...........A,@ in random places and run until it hits and halts 15:24:11 The thing is, I'd kind of like all the solutions to keep the same structure of just reading puzzle input from stdin, but `i` needs a file name. I could use /dev/stdin maybe. 15:26:23 maybe '-'? 15:26:38 I don't think that'd work in the implementations I've got. 15:26:43 I guess it's some standard for naming the stdin, didn't know about /dev/stdin 15:27:17 It's pretty common, yes, but it needs the program to interpret it. /dev/stdin has some chance of working even when not explicitly supported. 15:28:17 I just skip until the next line, then skip number of chars calculated with modulo, but the case of "down 2" would need something else 15:28:54 like passing the how many times you skip until newline 15:28:57 And I don't really have a "debugger" as such. I've been making do with `cfunge -t 10` (which just prints a trace like http://ix.io/2Ia8 out), plus that JS debugger (which has okay single-stepping and visualization, but can't do input, so it can only be used on fragments). I have a lot of ideas I'd like to see in my dream Befunge development tool (like per-cell annotations that'd be automatically shown on 15:29:03 a multi-line status line), but it'd take effort to implement that. 15:29:25 I think there's a bunch of Befunge-93 browser things, but for '98 the implementation situation seems a bit more bare. 15:29:58 unfortunately Ruby isn't tuned for GUI apps 15:30:07 I mean it has no cool libraries 15:30:38 only some monstrous bindings, and when someone tried to make it as simple as possible that resulted in something limited 15:30:59 Well, a TUI is what I'd like anyway. I've been eyeing tcell (in Go) if I do start making it. 15:31:02 and wxwidgets were segfaulting and then abandoned AFAIK 15:33:25 curses would do the job but it would also have to intercept the stdout 15:34:08 wouldn't be a problem though 15:35:40 damn, I've got so much things to do and now I want to implement the debugger, oh no... 15:35:56 -!- jess has quit (Quit: updates). 15:37:54 I want the playfield grid view to show cell values 32-126 as their printable ASCII counterparts, values 1-31 using the braille patterns as binary, value 0 maybe as WHITE DIAMOND and values <0 and >=127 as BLACK DIAMOND (of course showing the actual value on the status line). 15:37:59 And I want two rows reserved for the cell annotations shown permanently, and I'd use the top line by convention for stack annotations, and I want the enter key to switch focus between the grid and the annotation window. 15:38:04 And I want arrow keys to also as a side effect change the direction into which the cursor moves when you insert a character, but I also want to allow specifying a vector directly. 15:38:10 And I want mod-space to set a mark that can be used to define a highlighted rectangular region, which can also have other rectangles or individual cells added to or removed from, so that the arbitrarily shaped region can then be moved around or copied. Possibly rotated with automatic treatment of <>v^ too (I know some Befunge IDEs do that), though I'm a bit ambivalent about that. 15:40:31 And obviously I also want a single-stepping debugger that defaults the grid to a view mode, but also allows switching the grid to edit mode to tweaks, and also shows (and allows changing) the stack. 15:41:10 Oh, and I want the grid view section to be arbitrarily splittable to frames which each have their own origin, though can also be set to track a specific IP. 15:41:32 rasel would not need to display program space values since you don't write to it 15:42:05 BefungeSharp might be closest already existing thing to what I want, and if it wasn't Windows-only, I might even consider using it. 15:42:17 instead would need to display more stack values I guess 15:42:47 hehe, C# 15:43:08 I imagine you might want something like different stack value display options, in case you often have complex data in a single value. 15:44:14 rationals need more space than integers, yeah 15:45:15 didn't use numbers with fractional parts a lot but they exist at least temporary, when you emulate multiplication 15:45:30 The other thing that exists is Bequnge, but I think it goes a little too far into the >2D stuff, visualizations, and sound effects. https://hatstand.github.io/Bequnge/screenshots.html 15:46:13 Then again, as the author of GLfunge98, which was supposed to do exactly those similar things (except I abandoned it ages ago) I shouldn't probably be allowed to criticize. 15:46:42 yay, 3d, needs VR 15:47:43 There's an HP-UX port of GLfunge98, which I find pleasantly odd. 15:48:24 (Huh, has it really been 20 years since I did that? Feels like just yesterday.) 15:57:27 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:08:08 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 16:12:59 -!- TheLie has joined. 16:17:03 hmmmm 16:17:13 does Cat program have to exit with 0? 16:17:50 no 16:18:00 cat /foo exits with 1 16:18:49 my BSD one exits with 0 16:19:00 ah 16:19:15 okay, it exists with 1 16:19:25 but should it exit with 0 on success? 16:27:23 probably. most programs should exit with 0 exit code on success, with the exception of a few programs that are specifically useful to test some condition, like test and grep 16:28:12 b_jonas: the answer is yes. we can fit it into the framework of https://arxiv.org/abs/1203.1895 using a door gadget like https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/aoc.png (which makes liberal use of directed edges as explained earlier) 16:29:01 b_jonas: the most relevant door is the blue door at the bottom (I should have highlighted it somehow); the diagram shows the open state at the top and the closed state below 16:31:05 (updated with a bit of emphasis for the relevant door) 16:31:59 int-e: ah, I didn't recall the exact conditions of that article. I'll have to re-read some of it. so apparently it's enough to have one door, one open button, and one close button linked together, rather than, say, multiple open buttons or multiple doors linked? 16:32:35 b_jonas: yep, one path is enough. furthermore, it's okay if the open path doesn't always work 16:32:47 so just adding a bypass like I did is okay 16:33:45 I guess that part is from the earlier Sokoban article, not this one 16:33:55 maybe 16:36:45 I lost track of the articles. The requirements of the door gadget can be found there anyway. 16:40:37 (and crossover isn't needed as long as the graph is not required to be planar) 16:41:13 int-e: sure, but for this game we can create a crossover gadget (though it's not cheap, so in a real puzzle version you might add that and one-way doors as primitives) 16:41:27 (but in fact we can make one with the same principle shown by the green and red doors, without the blue one) 16:41:48 yes, I did say above that I can make a crossover 16:42:04 Sorry, I didn't read, I was busy making my own gadget. 16:42:25 makes sense, since I didn't say how to create a crossover 16:44:47 b_jonas: oh wait. I should've seen it, but I skipped the middle part and focussed on the binary counter... 16:45:38 you even mentioned directed edges there 16:45:48 (one-way corridors) 16:49:58 b_jonas: for puzzles though I guess you have to work actively against the fact that 2/3 of all edges are passable at any given time 16:50:00 yes, those are bisimulable with one-way gadgets 16:50:51 to make a one-way corridor, you can just add a one-way gadget before and a one-way gadget after; to make a one-way gadget, make a one-way edge with an irrelevant open door 16:50:52 (So naively, I'd expect random puzzles to be very easy.) 16:51:33 int-e: that would depend on how you sample random, but yes, I also figured it's not easy to just generate good puzzles randomly 16:52:09 and there are too many graphs and possiblel levels to brute force search all of them for potentially interesting ones 16:53:50 and adding one-ways and/or crossovers (or teleporters) as primitives doesn't change any of that 16:54:15 I mean it makes making puzzles slightly easier, but it still seems hard that way 16:55:42 I just defined the base game without them for simplicity and elegance 16:56:31 I would add such convenience things to a real puzzle implementation, because they make the puzzle easier to understand by humans. crossovers and one-ways are natural to understand, they make the puzzle easier to learn and navigate than the corresponding constructions. 16:56:43 okay, one more update to the png... lighter gray and I got rid of the spikes at the bottom of the ajar doors 16:57:24 the gadget is unchanged, I think it's pretty neat as it is. 16:58:12 your graphical representation is very different from what I imagine. I use a top-view map of the maze, with doors drawn as short lines (as short as a corridor) from the same top view, and with letters (and optional colors) to mark matching ones 16:58:36 rather than side view doors 16:58:50 I'm not a nethack player 16:59:06 I think that has a huge influence :) 17:00:03 (nor roguelikes in general, even graphical ones) 17:00:12 (and also uppercasing the letter for currently ajar doors. the sequence of names of ajar doors you go through is enough to represent your solution in an easy way.) 17:02:33 b_jonas: I'm sure you can figure out your own preferred representation :-P 17:20:21 caught another bug in '&' -- since it was working as reading the byte, then checking if it's a digit and then pushing it back when not, it failed if the file ends with integer instead of non-digit, such as newline 17:21:39 I mean not caught but found it while changing how ~ and & work; with working as trampoline instead of reversing the Cat program now does not need '#' and so is one char shorter 17:21:43 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:21:51 just ~@, 17:42:40 -!- sprocklem has joined. 17:44:24 -!- sprocklem has quit (Client Quit). 18:03:04 [[RASEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79481&oldid=79472 * Nakilon * (+69) ~ and & now work as # unless EOF 18:05:04 [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79482&oldid=79481 * Nakilon * (-1) cat program is 1 char shorter with the last specification update 18:12:14 [[MyScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79483&oldid=70772 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* Simple class */ cat 18:17:44 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 18:25:12 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:57:43 -!- user24 has joined. 19:15:40 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:42:23 https://corp.unicode.org/pipermail/unicode/2020-December/thread.html 19:42:45 Unicode mailing list debates having italics... again 19:43:56 please no italics 19:44:13 i think they should also add bold, underline, subscript, superscript, strikethrough and blink 19:44:34 and every combination of those 19:44:45 blink, yes 19:44:50 remember twhe they added emoji 19:44:51 when* 19:45:40 well, blame japan for that 19:49:38 i like emoji 19:49:38 and i like that i can compatibly use them across multiple platforms 19:51:00 someone near me has the vanity license plate "U1F47E" on their car 19:54:07 they could have no problem of compatibility at all 19:54:26 if they didn't use it in the first place 19:55:39 why no Putin emoji? 19:59:01 feel free to submit a proposal for one 19:59:30 I don't propose bad ideas 19:59:40 that's a good policy 19:59:55 emojis was a bad ide 19:59:57 a 20:01:09 but if they implement a bad idea, I just ask why don't they implement all other bad ideas 20:01:22 Get Things Done you know 20:01:26 lol 20:12:23 [[Talk:UClang*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79484&oldid=79259 * LegionMammal978 * (+218) 20:16:20 [[Brain:D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79485&oldid=79293 * LegionMammal978 * (+2) fix cat 20:35:11 -!- jess has joined. 20:41:20 -!- delta23 has joined. 21:01:02 [[Deadfish "self-interpreter"]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79486&oldid=73108 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+75) /* See also */ cats 21:12:22 but if they implement a bad idea, I just ask why don't they implement all other bad ideas => well, nobody has infinite resources, obviously 21:13:43 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 21:18:49 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:22:26 I think that Unicode is messy 21:28:12 -!- adu has joined. 21:29:47 -!- user24 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:49:05 [[Talk:UClang*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79487&oldid=79484 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+204) /* A4 and A5 */ new section 22:10:04 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9). 22:51:15 -!- Arcorann_ has joined. 23:21:36 I turned on "force dark" in Chrome as a test, and our very own Wiki renders badly. :/ https://zem.fi/tmp/esodark.png 23:23:06 Then again, so does Wikipedia, and arguably it's even a little worse. So maybe it's Not Our Fault. 23:28:19 (I'm not sure what all exactly the flag does. I guess I'd just like the "prefer dark if the website has it" setting, but AFAICT maybe Chrome on Linux doesn't have that setting, since there's no standard system-wide thing. At least https://support.google.com/chrome/answer/9275525?co=GENIE.Platform%3DDesktop&oco=1 just lists Mac OS and Windows.) 23:30:20 -!- TheLie has joined. 23:34:24 Apparently it's even got a setting for that as part of Developer Tools ("Emulate CSS media feature prefers-color-scheme" → dark), but not something you could just turn on. 23:38:56 Oh, turns out there's a command-line flag. Well, better than nothing. 23:50:52 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 2020-12-18: 00:30:49 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:53:39 [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79488&oldid=79482 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* Hello, World! */ rm redirect 01:00:03 -!- imode has joined. 01:06:05 [[Geo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79489&oldid=53330 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-8) Unpipe 01:07:18 [[Scan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79490&oldid=53334 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5) unpipe ; hd 01:13:56 [[SON-OF-UNBABTIZED]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79491&oldid=38964 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5545) Obligatory sample code 01:17:22 Does the dark mode work for web pages without any CSS specified, or with CSS specified but no colours specified? 01:18:33 [[PUSH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79492&oldid=78838 * Expliked * (+4) 01:26:51 -!- LegionMammal978 has joined. 01:28:11 zzo38: In Flipfractal, what happens when you hit an entry-point character from something other than its opposing direction? 01:29:08 E.g., if I enter a V going right, do I exit the + in the parent program going right or going up? 01:29:44 I would not recommend that 01:30:11 Seems needlessly painful 01:33:10 [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79493&oldid=72568 * CatIsFluffy * (+23) done 01:35:05 What is the less painful way of entering a V? 01:35:22 shikhin: from the back 01:35:30 I-I see. 01:35:32 or the front, depending on taste 01:35:59 Wait a second, that page was only saying you were the one who created Memfractal, it was worded confusingly 01:36:16 shikhin: look, I chose not to say it, but you chose to ask 01:36:21 Haha. 01:36:27 It is my fault. 01:36:30 -!- LegionMammal978 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:36:42 oh dear 01:36:46 Looks like we've scared them off 01:37:54 Oh dear. 01:46:58 LegionMammal978: I did not invent Flipfractal, and yes I agree it is worded confusingly. 01:50:01 -!- ais523 has joined. 01:50:21 shachaf: zzo38: there is apparently an unofficial standard for gopher over TLS 01:50:33 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 01:50:45 it is very simple, too: you just make a TLS connection on port 70 01:51:07 (a gophers server distinguishes between gopher-over-TLS and regular gopher by checking to see whether the first thing the client sends is a TLS handshake) 01:51:10 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:51:52 What's the thing with TLS where the server must identify all the domain names it possibly knows about and then the client checks whether it matches? 01:51:54 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 01:52:02 Rather than the cient saying what domain name it thinks it's accessing. 01:52:07 Seems bizarre to me. 01:52:43 sounds like one of the many variants of SNI 01:52:53 TCP is presumably just a dead end if you want efficient networking protocols. 01:53:03 the basic problem is that in most TLS connections, the server name indication is sent in the clear, so anyone listening in knows what site you're connecting 01:53:10 and there have been various proposals to remedy that 01:53:32 With TLS being one of the reasons. 01:53:48 Hmm, I see, so eavesdroppers know whether I'm connecting to youtube.com vs. google.com or something. 01:53:59 the basic problem is that it's hard to deploy anything like this at a small scale, because with a small hosting company, you can normally figure out which site is being connected to simply from the IP 01:54:09 I guess you might want to keep that information secret, especially with DNS becoming encrypted these days. 01:54:20 so in order to really keep it private, you need a wide range of different sites that are all hosted from the same IP so people aren't sure which is which 01:54:42 Cloudflare apparently added some sort of encrypted SNI recently, because they have the right sort of infrastructure for that 01:55:42 I'm a little surprised that gopher is still being developed nowadays (at least, within the last couple of years) 01:56:01 but apparently some people like it due to the lack of things like JavaScript-based adverts because the protocol can't handle them 01:56:41 Gophers are OK but kitty cats are where it's at, if you ask me. 01:57:11 I think that the web browser is the wrong place to implement encrypted DNS, since DNS is something that you will want many programs to use, not only the web browser. 01:57:15 well, cat has even fewer features than gopher 01:57:50 Is QUIC a good alternative to TCP? 01:59:23 one issue I've discovered with TCP is that in practice, you seem to need to duplicate a lot of TCP functionality to get reliable connections even when you're using TCP 01:59:32 in real life, TCP connections have a tendency to break for no reason 01:59:37 this somehow even happens on localhost 02:00:20 using TLS over TCP increases the frequency at which this happens, but probably just because more data is sent 02:01:27 oh, an idea I had recently: an equivalent of HTTP headers but for files on a filesystem (e.g. in the directory entry for a file) 02:01:41 it struck me that HTTP headers are already a widely used standard for file metadata 02:02:42 Actually, my "httpdirlist" format is similar, using the same format of HTTP headers to make a directory listing format for use with HTTP, with blank lines separating directory entries. 02:03:42 it strikes me as something of a security hole that I can't just put a file in a directory that a web browser serves, and know for certain that it won't get misinterpreted in a format I don't expect and that happens to do something malicious 02:03:47 Perhaps having a file in that format might also be helpful for loading "file:" URLs in a web browser, so that it can know the MIME type of each file. 02:04:06 (e.g. there was an incident on #esoteric a while ago where someone managed a successful XSS attacks against the raw log files, even though they're plaintext) 02:06:31 Yes, but you should fix the HTTP server to specify the correct MIME type, presumably always text/plain for the raw log files 02:06:59 yes, but some browsers will override the MIME type if it appears to be wrong 02:08:02 nowadays there is «X-Content-Type-Options: nosniff» which tells the browser that the MIME type is correct and should not be changed 02:09:13 Use that, then, although I should think that the web browser should never override the MIME type specified by the server unless the user explicitly specifies a different MIME type 02:11:24 apparently this option is not respected by IE < 8 02:11:36 so there would still be a potential for XSS attacks against plaintext files on IE7 and earlier 02:11:38 (does anyone still use those?) 02:14:33 I don't know 02:16:34 ais523: What about HFS forks? 02:18:05 shachaf: Mac filesystems have something similar to the HTTP idea I had 02:18:20 but, I think they used something proprietary to specify file types, not MIME 02:18:25 back when I last looked 02:18:28 maybe they're using MIME nowadays 02:20:48 oh wow, now I'm reading about CORB 02:20:52 and it is kind-of eso 02:21:36 the basic idea is that there are only a few types of thing that can be included into a web page via a cross-origin request, such as scripts and images 02:22:18 so if a web page tries to make a cross-origin request using or