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00:38:48 <esowiki> [[Funge-98]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79819&oldid=77549 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) /* Resources */ See also
00:40:46 <esowiki> [[Correct Syntax Error]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79820&oldid=53305 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) Header levels
00:52:26 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, the last one was also streaming from home
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02:08:30 <int-e> shachaf: I've realized that I'm missing a part of the map...
02:09:08 <shachaf> I haven't figured out how to go north or south from the room before the ending.
02:11:04 <int-e> shachaf: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/kitty.png I'm missing the exits to the top and the bottom of the kitty
02:11:27 <shachaf> Yes, that's the area I mean, I think.
02:13:15 <shachaf> I see exits to the north and south of that room but I don't know how to get to them.
02:13:33 <shachaf> The north one has a lock on it, hmm.
02:13:41 <shachaf> Maybe it becomes accessible when you get all the stars?
02:13:44 <int-e> Yeah that says you need 15 stars
02:13:50 <int-e> if you move near the lock
02:14:32 <int-e> I suspect I need to work on my missing star first, that leads to a room with a ton of inert cats that look different from what I've seen before
02:14:55 <shachaf> You got all but one stars?
02:15:12 <shachaf> I don't even see how to get to the lock. It has a 1 flag next to it.
02:15:26 <int-e> I have 11 stars out of 12 I've seen.
02:16:28 <shachaf> I was going to say I'm still at three, but I just realized how to get one.
02:24:09 <shachaf> Anyway isn't the map always incomplete before you go into a room?
02:25:11 <int-e> shachaf: I'm expecting a surprise mechanic
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02:59:28 <shachaf> So what's the deal with "A, B |- X, Y" meaning a conjunction on the left and a disjunction on the right?
03:01:09 <zzo38> Well, it is due to how the rules for logic works, they work well and symmetric when that is the case, I think.
03:05:28 <b4er> Huh, what inference rule is that?
03:05:42 <int-e> shachaf: Since you like SAT... it's a clause, -A \/ -B \/ X \/ Y
03:06:18 <shachaf> int-e: Yes, that's what made me think about it.
03:06:33 <shachaf> SAT is like a one-sided thing where everything is on the right of the turnstile.
03:06:45 <b4er> Usually when writing X |- Y left would be context (not conjunction) and right is the conclusion
03:07:33 <b4er> A,B |- ... is the same as B,A |- ... but A /\ B is not the same as B /\ A
03:08:53 <int-e> shachaf: and the cut rule is resolution
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03:16:14 <shachaf> b4er_: Right, but the question is how to interpret multiple things in the context vs. in the conclusion.
03:16:49 <b4er_> shachaf, that really depends on the logic
03:17:48 <b4er_> Sometimes you can swap assumptions or drop them, sometimes you can't
03:17:55 <b4er_> I think they're called structural rules
03:19:55 <zzo38> Yes, there are different kind of logic, some which allow such things (and also duplication) and some don't.
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03:23:36 <b4er> Would , not be natural for conjunction on both sides?
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03:24:21 <shachaf> I think most people just don't use , on the right side.
03:24:26 <zzo38> No. The way the rules work to allow freely moving them around, it works better the way it is.
03:24:28 <shachaf> But when they do, it means something like disjunction.
03:25:31 <shachaf> So you have rules that let you move things, like zzo38 said, e.g. from "Γ, A |- Δ" to "Γ |- ¬A, Δ"
03:29:17 <b4er> Idk, that's kind of confusing the only time I've seen , on the rhs was for product types which are like conjunction
03:30:39 <shachaf> Do you have any examples of that?
03:33:21 <b4er> Not at hand no, but I can write you one ^^
03:35:37 <shachaf> I'm skeptical that any logic things use , on the right side of a turnstile to mean conjunction.
03:36:15 <b4er> Not conjunction but product-type but it's the same really
03:41:14 <int-e> shachaf: Oh there's kind of a hidden area in that game, maybe that's the real missing bit
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04:09:43 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Thief * New user account
04:13:53 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79821&oldid=79813 * Thief * (+94) Added my name!
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04:42:07 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * CatIsFluffy * moved [[StupidStackLanguage:Examples]] to [[StupidStackLanguage/Examples]]: Consistency
04:42:18 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * CatIsFluffy * moved [[Al Dente examples]] to [[Al Dente/Examples]]: Consistency
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05:41:37 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79828&oldid=79640 * Ais523 * (-41) /* See also */ unpipe interwiki links; I think people here like to know that the link's going to an external site
06:10:52 <int-e> shachaf: Okay, I'm done. 15 stars collected...
06:12:16 <shachaf> The room with the two cats and the 5-flag and 2-flag seems pretty tricky.
06:14:10 <int-e> final map (spoiler warning): https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/kitty2.png
06:14:32 <int-e> shachaf: It's easy to cross though :)
06:16:05 <shachaf> Oh no, there's a room south of the star in the icy area?
06:16:24 <shachaf> I was wondering about that but it was so annoying just to get the star.
06:17:00 <shachaf> Now that I try it again getting the star seems easy.
06:17:17 <shachaf> I think I did something unnecessarily complicated before.
06:17:52 <Lykaina> the year is old enough to drink!
06:20:04 <shachaf> I think I was trying to get the 5-flag over there. Which is maybe what I need to do.
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13:34:14 <b_jonas> I have completed the free demo of the shapez.io game. it fittingly ends with building a rocket, which is probably the hardest shape required up to that point, depending on how you count shapes that are made easier but you can reuse a shape that was already required as one of its components.
13:34:38 <b_jonas> I will have to consider buying the non-demo version of the game.
13:36:35 <b_jonas> int-e, shachaf: wait what game is this you're playing? I assumed at first it was still the one with chairs and trees and rocks, but now it seems like it's another puzzle platformer
13:38:34 <b_jonas> s/puzzle platformer/block-pushing puzzle/
13:53:34 <fizzie> b_jonas: 21:42 <shachaf> int-e: Did you play n-step Steve? https://epicpikaguy.itch.io/n-step-steve-part-1
13:59:12 <esowiki> [[Boner++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79829&oldid=79827 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+129) Cats, s.t.
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15:37:54 <int-e> fizzie, b_jonas: Yes, fizzie got it right.
15:40:49 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cyborg * New user account
15:42:21 <int-e> I've played 5 Step Steve too... but coming from N Step Steve takes out almost all the surprises. The game logic is pretty much the same except that all flags have a 5 on them.
15:47:18 <int-e> https://esolangs.org/logs/ is extremely useful for answering this type of questions
15:56:02 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79830&oldid=79821 * Cyborg * (+223)
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17:07:11 <b_jonas> int-e: #esoteric sometimes plays puzzle games
17:08:34 <b_jonas> it makes sense, some of the esolangs inspire great puzzles too, like what the computational power of some esolang is, possibly with some restrictions
17:09:04 <b_jonas> just look at those results about brainfuck with a limited constant number of bracket pairs in the program
17:09:32 <b_jonas> heck did I just give brainfuck as an example for something?
17:12:37 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck#Computational_class
17:40:33 <b_jonas> this will take months to get used to
17:41:14 <b_jonas> I'm getting EIO... hopefully only a contact error at the USB conenction
17:42:14 <b_jonas> yep, that's what it was, whew
17:42:47 <b_jonas> I was reading from an SD card reader
17:43:23 <b_jonas> at least tar is kind enough to specifically say "Read error" so I didn't get scared that it was an EIO on my hard disk that I'm writing to
17:43:33 <b_jonas> not that you'd get an immediate EIO for that
17:46:36 <fizzie> Huh, Sonic 1 on Android.
17:48:38 <myname> platformer adaptions don't work well on android imho. and sonic isn't even a good one to begin with
17:49:28 <fizzie> (Watching AGDQ, if it wasn't clear.)
17:50:03 <fizzie> I have to imagine it's being played on a controller.
17:50:26 <fizzie> But looks like they've imported in the shields (at least bubble and lightning) from 3.
17:51:13 <myname> i don't get why it became so popular
18:00:47 <b_jonas> myname: writing text messages and browsing the web also got popular on tiny touchscreens. how are platformers different?
18:01:02 <b_jonas> android or apple phone is irrelevant here
18:01:50 <myname> writing text messages and browsing aren't inherently tightly timed
18:02:05 <myname> and you usually press where you look at those
18:02:12 <b_jonas> myname: sure, but the input devices are about as bad as for a platformer
18:02:32 <myname> for platformers, you have to do presses somewhere you don't look in a precise time window
18:02:38 <andrew_esolangs> you can always assume that the rest of the populace are idiot
18:02:39 <myname> and this also removes screen estate
18:03:07 <b_jonas> "press where you look at those" -- I sure don't. I buy non-smart phones that have a non-flat keyboard so that I can type on without looking continuously.
18:03:17 <myname> b_jonas: how so? typing? maybe. browsing? i don't think so. whether i click or i touch doesn't make a big difference
18:03:30 <b_jonas> myname: not browsing, just typing text messages or short text notes to myself
18:03:54 <b_jonas> for browsing that's probably less relevant, yes
18:04:42 <myname> yeah, keyboards are a weird one for that. there are experimental inputs that don't depend on watching as much
18:04:56 <myname> like 8pen/8vim for example
18:05:14 <andrew_esolangs> i'm too used to smartphones to have a justified opinion so i'm going
18:06:29 <myname> i used android as my daily driver quite some time
18:06:56 <myname> multitasking is necessary
18:08:36 <andrew_esolangs> my dailies are about as unlikely as possible for an irc like this
18:09:00 <myname> windows is more popular here than one might think
18:09:16 <myname> not sure about android/ios preferences, though
18:10:09 <kmc> i've been an android user for about 10 years
18:10:33 <myname> i got pretty late to the party. my first android device was the nexus 3
18:10:51 <kmc> mine was the HTC Evo 4G
18:11:08 <myname> currently i have a galaxy fold 2 <3
18:11:22 <kmc> I had a few pre-Android/iOS smartphones that were varying degrees of terrible
18:11:29 <fizzie> My first Android device was the (first, 2012) Nexus 7 tablet, and I think it might still remain the only Android device I've bought with my own money.
18:11:40 <kmc> also the Nokia N800 which was pretty nice, but not actually a phone (I think they made one phone on that platform later)
18:11:51 <fizzie> I've got the N900 on my desk right now.
18:12:05 <kmc> on desktop I have mainly been a Linux user but I switched to Win10 in 2017, kind of on a whim, and switched back late last year when that machine broke
18:12:05 <fizzie> (Because I'm meant to wipe any personal stuff out of it while it still works, but haven't gotten around to.)
18:12:22 <kmc> (I was using WSL heavily so it wasn't that much of an adjustment)
18:13:56 <b_jonas> (yes, I'm heavilyi biased against smartphone because of the state of android software)
18:13:56 <myname> i had several moto gs before
18:14:01 <fizzie> I can see a total of 9 smartphones from where I sit, which is getting pretty ridiculous.
18:14:01 <kmc> my current phone is a Pixel 3a
18:14:08 <kmc> before that I had a Moto G5+, which I really liked
18:14:11 <myname> good price for what they deliver
18:14:14 <kmc> the Pixel 3a is also good
18:14:47 <myname> i am still a bit confused about phones without dual sim
18:14:49 <andrew_esolangs> i use an hp laptop with win10 on it by the way, that's where i'm typing in this irc from
18:14:52 <kmc> yeah, my needs from a phone are pretty modest, so even a "budget" brand like Moto is more than enough phone for me, as long as the build quality is good (which it is)
18:15:26 <kmc> i mean... that "budget" phone has 8 cores and can capture 4k video at 30 fps
18:15:29 <kmc> it's a little ridiculous
18:15:32 <andrew_esolangs> if anyone cares to listen i've popped in and out of this irc a few times (if you've ever seen another "andrew" user here that's probs me)
18:16:07 <andrew_esolangs> i have little in the way of complaints for my moto, i hold it dear
18:16:36 <andrew_esolangs> i used ot have a lenovo tablet then the charger port went poof
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18:19:55 <b_jonas> fizzie: 9 smartphones from where you sit => I'm suddenly reminded of an on-site mall shop for one of the mobile phone providers here, where the vendors only have touchscreen tablets in front of them, without a keyboard, and typing my home address and every other alphanumeric data of customers on those touchscreen. that's what I saw when I went there to migrate away from them.
18:20:01 <myname> what i did to find moto g was to go on a site, filter for dualsim and sd, order by price, take the first non-chinese brand
18:20:44 <b_jonas> migrating a phone number away from them normally shouldn't require their help, by design, but that assumes that they don't pretend to not know my home address from when they were required to ask me several times before
18:22:22 <fizzie> Only 4 of those 9 have SIM cards. And it probably would only be 2/9, if it wasn't for how international SMS routing seems to be just a mess.
18:22:51 <fizzie> (Well, it'd probably be 2/x where x<9, because that's one of the reasons there's so many phones.)
18:23:10 <b_jonas> fizzie: international SMS routing? what?
18:23:21 <b_jonas> also how many of them have more than one SIM card?
18:23:47 <fizzie> And you can't assume SMS will work between an arbitrary pair of mobile operators, if those operators are in different countries.
18:24:14 <fizzie> In particular, my bank in Finland is unable to send the required confirmation text messages to my "primary" UK operator.
18:24:29 <b_jonas> if it's definitely mobile operators that is, I don't assume it will work for all landline phone operators
18:24:44 <fizzie> It works mostly, but there's arbitrary pairs of operators where it just doesn't work.
18:25:12 <fizzie> I think it's weird, too, but it seems to be true, and nobody takes responsibility for it.
18:25:51 <b_jonas> fizzie: I also used to assume that when an on-site vendor with a POS terminal accepts Mastercard credit cards, then they accept Mastercard credit cards regardless the bank backing the account.
18:25:57 <b_jonas> but the world is more complicated than this
18:26:22 <fizzie> Fortunately most of the big operators in the SMS "two-factor" business seem to have figured out how to deliver messages to anywhere (certainly the likes of Google/Apple/Steam etc. do), but I imagine banks have a relatively small % of international customers.
18:28:05 <b_jonas> fizzie: I am the customer of a large bank, and they have customer service phone numbers at all three big mobile phone operators, which helps customers who can call only one of them for free, but this is exceptional, most taxis and such only have multiple numbers with one provider
18:29:54 <myname> why don't they make a number free for all numbers?
18:30:04 <kmc> my bank in the US is unable to reliably send 2FA texts to my US number
18:30:08 <kmc> but that's just cause they're incompetent
18:30:46 <kmc> any dogshit startup can do it
18:30:52 <kmc> any twilio customer can do it (including me)
18:30:53 <b_jonas> this bank also has walk-in customer offices and ATMs like everywhere, so this sort of thing is right in their profile; other banks instead have few walk-in offices or ATMs and instead make it cheap to use other ATMs
18:30:59 <kmc> but this hueg bank can't
18:31:08 <myname> i went to fintechs semi-voluntairily and i don't look back
18:31:16 <b_jonas> myname: because the bank would have to pay for the calls to free phone numbers
18:31:26 <kmc> maybe cause they want to do it in some "secure" way but at the end of the day it's still a plain old SMS when I (eventually, sometimes) receive it
18:31:51 <myname> b_jonas: and that's more expensive than 3 different numbers and the overhead for that?
18:31:52 <andrew_esolangs> banks are full of old people in upper management, probs why
18:32:06 <b_jonas> myname: they do have an internet form to call you back, in which case they pay for the call, but that incentivizes customers to be on call with them at off-times when their customer support isn't overloaded
18:33:15 <b_jonas> myname: do you know how much time customers can spend on the menu maze and 30 minutes of waiting with hold music until an operator is available?
18:33:33 <b_jonas> I don't know, but probably either of these is cheap compared to having all those walk-in offices
18:35:25 <b_jonas> or maybe customers just waste their phone customer support time slightly less if you have to either pay for it or do something nontrivial like ask for a callback on the website
18:36:23 <b_jonas> it's like when you pay a very small amount of money to buy a tabloid paper magazine: it's not that that covers their costs, it's the ads that give them income, but if they gave the papers avay for any cheaper, people would use them as toilet paper and package padding material without even glancing at those ads
18:36:55 <b_jonas> and yes, there are lots of free magazines too for that, but exactly for that reason they probably profit less from the ads
18:37:47 <b_jonas> I use these free papers to peel tomatoes on, or occasionally other similar stuff. I throw away the ones with glossy paper immediately though, because they're less suitable for that.
18:38:48 <b_jonas> myname: perhaps all the banks other than the two that try to have walk-in offices everywhere do have free phone numbers
18:39:28 <fizzie> I've seen ads in the Tube (pre-Covid) about these new "virtual" banks that don't do offices.
18:40:47 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, those exist too
18:41:55 <myname> i am tempted to open an account at tomorrow just because they have a wooden visa
18:42:15 <b_jonas> andrew_esolangs: we have logs going back to 18 years (2002-12), and the channel is said to be somewhat older, but I'm not sure, I wasn't there
18:42:56 <andrew_esolangs> i got involved with esolanging a few years ago although i've never made anything of use
18:43:00 <int-e> myname: we're so eco friendly, we have to cut down trees for our credit cards to make up for it?
18:43:51 <myname> int-e: they are eco friendly, though. the paid account uses your fees for co2 compensation
18:44:05 <b_jonas> myname: I already have a problem where the plastic bank card gets accidentally almost perforated by continuous misuse and bending in my pocket, a wooden card would be worse. (admittedly that's a debit card, not an embossed credit card)
18:44:22 <fizzie> I think I looked up an exact-enough birthday a while back, to figure out when we should celebrate. It was in December 2002 anyway.
18:44:34 <myname> b_jonas: sounds like a bad wallet
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18:45:00 <fizzie> (You can derive a reasonably good upper and lower bound from the mailing list archives.)
18:45:01 <b_jonas> myname: it's happened even with the previous wallet. it's not the wallet's fault, anything would suffer in the front packet of my jeans
18:45:11 <b_jonas> the jeans wants to go around my leg
18:45:35 <int-e> b_jonas: well you could get a stiff wallet (surely that's a thing) but it would be uncomfortable
18:45:56 <myname> b_jonas: i have some form of these "metal plates with a rubber" wallets, i am pretty sure stuff in there will not bend
18:46:22 <b_jonas> fizzie: isn't the exact date in the MODE reply after the logbot joins, in the raw log from before freenode replaced their software?
18:46:25 <myname> int-e: not at all, those are pretty slim in comparison
18:47:02 <b_jonas> myname: replacement cards are cheap enough, I'm not going to pay to not bend the card. they should just be as resilient as cash.
18:47:24 <b_jonas> myname: besides, it takes almost as much time as the card would already expire when this happens
18:47:28 <b_jonas> it's not an immediate effect
18:47:35 <b_jonas> so often I don't even have to replace it
18:47:38 <myname> fine by me. just saying i never had this problem ever
18:48:13 <myname> also, there are metal credit cards
18:48:59 <b_jonas> myname: again, this is a debit card. I don't know if it happens with credit cards.
18:49:25 <myname> are those different cards?
18:49:50 <fizzie> It might have been, but I don't think we have actual raw logs from that far in the past.
18:50:00 <b_jonas> fizzie: hmm, maybe we don't have *raw* logs old enough
18:50:24 <fizzie> http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2003-01-18-raw.txt is the oldest codu file, and it doesn't have anything useful in it.
18:50:34 <myname> i only have debit cards and one of those has those annoying letters
18:51:04 <b_jonas> myname: yes, credit cards are embossed. it's not quite a full match, I think there are non-embossed credit cards or embossed debit cards or something. the point is, my physical debit card and physical debit card are clearly physically different. the credit card is thinner if you don't count the embossing.
18:51:41 <fizzie> I think I remember someone saying their recently renewed credit card was non-embossed.
18:51:48 <fizzie> So maybe they're giving up on that finally.
18:51:57 <rain1> http://www.ioccc.org/years.html#2020
18:53:00 <myname> i don't think embossed credit cards had any use outside of the use a few decades ago
18:53:14 <b_jonas> fizzie: strange, because irc servers send that after the NAMES reply when you join a channel
18:53:56 <b_jonas> fizzie: would make sense. if only they also made ones with no magnetic strip.
18:54:07 <b_jonas> I've only ever seen the embossing used on airplanes
18:54:17 <b_jonas> where they do that because don't have internet connectivity
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18:55:56 <myname> that kinda makes sense, the card i have with embossing is more travel-focussed than the one without
18:57:55 <b_jonas> and I don't think that happens anymore, because they just have internet on those airplanes. not necessarily broadband internet that they sell to customers or anything, just enough internet for a card transaction, which isn't much.
18:58:15 <b_jonas> or phone connectivity or whatever
19:04:35 <kmc> can't you do a magstripe transaction offline too
19:04:40 <kmc> i mean it has the same information the embosser gives you
19:05:00 <kmc> maybe you can't do an EMV transaction offline
19:05:07 <kmc> but it will be forever before they get rid of the magstripes
19:05:18 <b_jonas> I think it gives somewhat more than the
19:05:20 <kmc> USA still hasn't implemented EMV properly
19:05:35 <b_jonas> and yes, you could probably do a magstripe transaction, so I dunno
19:05:40 <kmc> well ok, but it should still be sufficient for an offline (processed when the plane lands) transaction
19:05:51 <kmc> my recollection of buying stuff on a plane is that they used a handheld terminal
19:06:04 <kmc> not sure whether it was EMV or magstripe
19:06:18 <b_jonas> I don't know how it works really
19:06:31 <kmc> the last (and maybe only?) time I did an embosser transaction was buying some meat from a sketchy guy in a van in 2013
19:06:34 <kmc> long story
19:06:49 <b_jonas> was the meat at least good?
19:06:49 <fizzie> I've only used the embossing thing on a boat.
19:06:52 <kmc> it was okay
19:07:17 <kmc> my credit union debit card (issued last year or maybe 2019) is not embossed
19:07:27 <kmc> but my megabank debit card (issued last year) is
19:07:35 <kmc> and i don't have any credit cards anymore
19:08:05 <kmc> both have EMV, the megabank also has NFC, before that it had EMV but not NFC, before that it had NFC but not EMV
19:08:13 <kmc> it's kind of embarrassing how much of a mess all this is
19:08:28 <fizzie> Chicago's public transit Ventra card is also a MasterCard, which I found weird.
19:08:35 <kmc> in the US there's still like a 1 in 4 chance when you encounter an EMV terminal that the EMV is mysteriously broken and you have to use magstripe
19:08:43 <myname> good to know, i disabled magstripe on my card
19:09:03 <fizzie> I got one of those on a trip because the deposit ($5?) was less than what you saved by using the card, but they've been a bit spammy afterwards.
19:09:13 <b_jonas> kmc: how is it a mess? it's just progress of technology, from embossed to magnetic to chip to proxy
19:09:24 <b_jonas> I mean the details are a mess, yes
19:09:28 <b_jonas> but the general idea isn't
19:09:35 <fizzie> It finally expires (expired?) now, and they said they'd send a replacement, but they've got a really weird address for me, because the forms were incredibly US-centric.
19:09:39 <kmc> also the protocol for paying for a sit-down meal at a restaurant in the USA is still ridiculous
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19:09:54 <kmc> and unchanged from the very start of credit cards
19:10:24 <fizzie> You give your card to them, they go away with it, then they come back with a receipt, which you then scribble a tip on and leave?
19:10:34 <kmc> you give your card to the waiter, they take it in back and do god knows what with it, bring you the card and a receipt, you write the amount you want to pay (including tip) on the receipt and then leave, and trust that they key it in correctly
19:10:46 <fizzie> Yeah, I've always found that real weird.
19:10:55 <kmc> instead of, say, bringing you a portable EMV terminal to the table
19:10:59 <b_jonas> I thought they stopped by now
19:11:01 <kmc> which I think is how it works in civilized countries
19:11:12 <fizzie> They were still doing that on my last US visit.
19:11:12 <b_jonas> and that banks also don't allow that
19:11:36 <kmc> it will probably be decades more before that changes
19:11:46 <kmc> at this point it's an ingrained part of American culture
19:11:53 <kmc> and it would confuse so many people to do it "right"
19:12:36 <kmc> (American tipping laws and culture are also dumb, but that's another matter)
19:12:57 <fizzie> It doesn't happen here either, but bill-splitting works differently here. The waiter comes around with the machine, and in turn everyone gives the waiter a card and says "take £X from here", except the last one pays whatever remains.
19:13:11 <b_jonas> I did get confused by protocol at least once, because in Sweden (and I think the UK and Geramny etc) they use portable terminals where you type in how much tip you want to pay, whereas here they don't have that, instead if you want to pay tip via card reader you tell the waiter or taxi driver how much you want to pay before they hand you the terminal, and they just enter the increased amount to the card
19:13:11 <fizzie> I don't actually remember how it usually goes in Finland, but I don't think it's worked like that.
19:13:29 <fizzie> Oh, right, I do remember: you just tell the waiter up front how you like to pay, and they bring you separate bills.
19:14:00 <kmc> yeah here you can sometimes ask them to split the bill
19:14:08 <kmc> but different restaurants may have policies on when they will or won't do this
19:14:13 <kmc> because it's kind of a pain for them
19:14:16 <b_jonas> kmc: couldn't they fix that without incompatbility by like, if you give the waiter the card, they still take it and just put it into the slot of the terminal in front of you and then hand it back after they get the confirmation?
19:14:25 <kmc> separately you can also pay one bill with multiple cards or a combination of cards and cash
19:14:32 <kmc> i think that is pretty universally accepted, but i rarely do it
19:14:46 <kmc> it's easier to have one person card the whole meal and everyone else gives that person cash or venmo or something
19:15:09 <kmc> at my university the rule was that the youngest non-math-major had to calculate how much everyone owes after a meal
19:15:19 <kmc> (because math majors can't do arithmetic)
19:15:26 <kmc> and i was pretty much always youngest
19:15:31 <kmc> but I did claim to be a math major for one term
19:20:37 <kmc> this conversation reminded me of an esoteric forgotten-technology thing
19:21:11 <kmc> which is that once upon a time, Bloom filters computed from numbers of stolen credit cards were transmitted alongside FM radio broadcasts
19:21:18 <kmc> https://i.imgur.com/gicQK2W.png https://i.imgur.com/VvBK3fz.jpg
19:21:42 <kmc> perhaps only as a trial in one city... i haven't found much information besides this one article in a trade publication from the 90s
19:23:07 <fizzie> Here's another unrelated forgotten-tech thing: at least in Finland, magazines used to print bar codes in the TV program listings, that could be used to set up a VCR to record that program, by reading the bar code using a scanner in the corner of the VCR's remote.
19:23:14 <kmc> of course at one time merchants were issued physical books of canceled card numbers, but that doesn't scale at all
19:23:27 <fizzie> (I think they might have had at least two incompatible systems for those.)
19:23:30 <kmc> so they moved to electronic networks for verifying the cards
19:24:28 <kmc> but those were kind of expensive so the FM thing was meant to reduce load on them, by caching a data structure (article doesn't say, but probably a bloom filter) with each merchant so that many cards could be accepted offline and only some would need to be checked in realtime
19:25:11 <kmc> the whole notion of credit cards is still a weird one to me
19:25:26 <kmc> the idea that you are borrowing money just by making purchases
19:25:42 <kmc> obviously arises from the limitations of pre-electronic commerce
19:26:13 <kmc> but sort of became a raison d'etre of the cards themselves
19:26:39 <b_jonas> fizzie: jesus, so that's what they did about people stereotypically being unable to program vcrs? crazy, I haven't heard of that
19:27:16 <kmc> and somehow my willingness to "borrow" $5 to buy a sandwich when I already have $5 and will immediately pay it back is used to assess my trustworthiness to borrow $1,500,000 to buy a house
19:27:42 <kmc> and also my trustworthiness to rent an apartment or get a job or do other things that have nothing to do with borrowing money
19:27:50 <b_jonas> kmc: that's another of those weird things the US does, yes
19:28:01 <kmc> and really credit score is not about trustworthiness at all; it's about how much money banks can expect to make from lending to you
19:28:13 <kmc> so the "perfect" customer who only borrows money when she really needs to and pays it back as soon as possible gets a crappy score
19:28:15 <b_jonas> kmc: but don't worry, we Europeans do other weird things instead
19:28:22 <kmc> because it's more profitable to people who will end up oweing more interest
19:28:24 <fizzie> b_jonas: Yeah, something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_recorder_scheduling_code for the manually typed-in version, but I'm pretty sure there was also a barcode form.
19:28:45 <kmc> but somehow "profitability as a customer for consumer debt" has become our general purpose score of whether you are a good and trustworthy person
19:28:49 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think I've seen the printed version
19:28:52 <kmc> it says something dark about our society
19:29:05 <b_jonas> fizzie: printed in newspapers that is, I haven't used a VCR that does it
19:29:12 <kmc> fizzie: that VCR thing is cool
19:29:22 <fizzie> We didn't have a fancy enough VCR to have that, but either a friend or a relative did, and I always found it real impressive somehow.
19:29:28 <fizzie> Even though it really doesn't do much.
19:29:34 <b_jonas> I've only ever programmed a VCR the obvious way, by entering the day of week and hour and minute of start time and hour and minute of end time
19:29:44 <kmc> this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_recorder_scheduling_code
19:30:08 <fizzie> That's what I found as well, and ShowView rings a bell, but it doesn't mention bar codes.
19:30:23 <fizzie> Also found https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1987-12-11-8704020115-story.html but that's got a static list of bar codes.
19:30:23 <kmc> hm, I do vaguely recall seeing these "PlusCodes" in TV Guide
19:30:29 <kmc> not sure that we ever had a VCR which knew about them
19:30:35 <int-e> Hmm I don't recall barcodes.
19:30:43 <kmc> but I don't remember seeing barcodes
19:31:06 <b_jonas> kmc: fizzie already linked to that
19:31:36 <fizzie> Maybe I dreamed that bit. But I still have a vivid recollection of a scanner in the corner of a remote, hmm.
19:31:45 <fizzie> Got reminded of this whole deal after seeing a video on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CueCat
19:31:46 <kmc> ah, I missed it while I was ranting about the credit-industrial complex
19:33:38 <fizzie> Credit scores are a thing in the UK as well, incidentally.
19:33:43 <b_jonas> fizzie: nah, the barcode scanner in remote totally sounds like something that was probably real depsite that it sounds stupid to us
19:33:58 <fizzie> And apparently what you do with your credit cards affects your chances of getting a mortgage approved here.
19:34:55 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, in the sense that if you borrow money from your credit cards then don't pay it back, then they don't give you other types of loans. that's a thing here, it's sensible. it's just not all the american system has.
19:37:15 <fizzie> I've gotten the implication it goes one step further here, and isn't just that you need to avoid "bad" things, you need to actively try to do enough "good" things that end up in the credit agency databases.
19:37:24 <fizzie> (In Finland it's more how you describe.)
19:37:59 <kmc> oh the other weird thing is that the "borrowing money" aspect of a credit card also gets you the "chargeback and fraud protection" part
19:38:01 <b_jonas> fizzie: well it's not only about not paying back, it's also to stop you from borrowing acceptible amounts of money from each of multiple different agents such that together you borrow too much money
19:38:02 <kmc> fizzie: yeah, same in the US
19:38:12 <kmc> my credit score is mediocre because I haven't owned or used a credit card in years
19:38:16 <kmc> because I don't like to play their stupid games
19:38:24 <fizzie> (Not that I know the details, other than having read a few "tips how to manage your credit score" articles a while back.)
19:38:30 <kmc> my wife's score is much better because she has one open card that she uses a few times a year to keep it active
19:38:33 <kmc> it's very stupid
19:38:48 <kmc> none of this should at all predict our ability to service a large loan like a home mortgage
19:39:25 <fizzie> I'd kind of like to know what my score is, but it seems like it would take a little bit of a hassle to find out.
19:39:47 <b_jonas> kmc: and on the other hand, the "borrowing money" aspect of a credit card also gets you that service providers often take more money than you owe them as a precaution and then return the money you didn't use up much later
19:39:50 <kmc> (which is a prediction the banks are also bad at, or indeed deliberaly give loans to people who can't pay, and then get bailed out by the government when this gets them into trouble)
19:40:03 <kmc> b_jonas: yeah that can happen too
19:40:53 <j4cbo> yeah, if you don't use a credit card "enough" there's a penalty to your credit score
19:41:13 <kmc> oh and the credit agencies keep getting hacked and leaking everyone's personal info
19:41:18 <kmc> which is another reason i hate this stupid system
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22:52:24 <nakilon> that US credit score system sounds like a pyramid
22:52:58 <andrew_esolangs> it's wonderful what never reading the logs can do to make finding out of context quotes easier
22:53:01 <nakilon> where you are shit if you aren't yet on a higher level than 1 or 2 in a cash flow
22:54:53 <nakilon> there is a huge gap between the technologies that banks are using right now and the datamining science is at now
22:56:58 <nakilon> now with network and calculation technologies being improved every year will make banks able to throw out the 1950 legacy code and hardware and catch up with new stuff
22:57:37 <nakilon> and the financial control will change dramatically in the near future
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