←2021-01-18 2021-01-19 2021-01-20→ ↑2021 ↑all
00:08:25 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80079&oldid=80078 * Pen Island * (+228) added new instruction into interpreter and documentation, also updated the cat program further simplyfing it!
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00:29:42 <ArthurStrong> what do you run?
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00:51:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Loadstring]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80080 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+219) /* Source request */ new section
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01:08:51 <esowiki> [[Loadstring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80081&oldid=80079 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* Cat program */ Should work now (should halt on null char)
01:57:19 <esowiki> [[I don't care about esolangs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80082 * Quintopia * (+280) parking this name
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03:08:32 <ais523> shachaf: I was reading about the reasons people use shared rather than statically linked libraries, and the most compelling reason seems to be "you want to link code written in a compiled language together with code written in an interpreted language"
03:08:56 <ais523> that way, the interpreter can load the shared library at runtime, without needing to change the interpreter executable
03:09:12 <ais523> however, it strikes me that there's quite a difference between dlopen() … dlsym() … call via function pointer
03:09:24 <ais523> and having ld.so do relocations
03:09:39 <shachaf> Hmm, language implementation details don't seem to be that compelling.
03:10:04 <shachaf> Well... Hmm.
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03:10:23 <shachaf> I guess the thing here is that you need to do relocations on the .a to be able to use it.
03:10:39 <shachaf> Whereas the .so mostly just works as-is, and you just need some runtime relocations?
03:11:00 <ais523> so I think my current view is along the lines of "shared libraries don't seem all that useful when it comes to making hardcoded function calls directly to functions in them, but loading a library and extracting function pointers from it at runtime may still be a useful operation"
03:11:03 <ais523> Perl actually allows you to link to code in static libraries, but it requires recompiling the perl(1) executable
03:11:49 <ais523> there are lots of similarities between .so and .a, the only real difference is when the relocations happen
03:11:51 <shachaf> Many libraries require you to use dlopen/dlsym (or an equivalent) for regular use.
03:12:21 <ais523> I'm surprised at that; most of the best-known shared libraries (libc, libm, libz, libpng, etc.) are designed to be linked against directly
03:12:25 <shachaf> Anyway, I think that whatever language your program is written in, you should be able to make a self-contained executable that works with minimal system dependencies.
03:12:32 <ais523> you *could* dlopen/dlsym them but it would be a weird thing todo
03:12:33 <shachaf> I'm thinking of things like OpenGL.
03:13:02 <ais523> well, thinking about it one way, most executables are specific to a particular operating system
03:13:11 <ais523> but with shared libraries, there's no real reason that has to be the case
03:13:31 <ais523> I can easily imagine a dynamically linked executable that works on both Linux and BSD via dynamically linking to different libcs
03:14:13 <ais523> but, that isn't a very popular thing to do (to the extent that the more common portability solution is for the OS to have a mechanism to change its system call interface to mimic another OS's, asking userspace for help when it sees a system call it doesn't understand
03:14:23 <ais523> )
03:14:43 <ais523> graphics libraries strike me as something that might quite plausibly vary between computeres
03:14:55 <shachaf> Linux and BSD are very similar. It seems trickier with Windows, for instance.
03:15:13 <ais523> like, does it make sense for every program to have statically linked-in functions for talking to ATI, NVidia, Intel, etc. graphics cards? what if a new one is released
03:15:14 <shachaf> Broadly I agree that the core of your program should be platform-independent.
03:15:30 <shachaf> Hmm, I think the situation with OpenGL etc. is pretty bad, though.
03:15:41 <shachaf> Where in theory it's portable, but in practice you run into vendor-specific issues anyway.
03:15:56 <shachaf> And on top of that, there are more graphics libraries that you need to support than actual vendors of graphics cards.
03:16:10 <shachaf> At least Direct3D, Metal, Vulkan, OpenGL (ES).
03:16:14 <ais523> the Linux console recently added support designed to make Wine and friends more efficient; it works via having two programs mapped into the same address space, the program you're running and a system call emulator
03:16:43 <ais523> if it sees a system call from the program, it just bounces it to the system call emulator and lets it take care of it, if it gets a system call from the emulator then it handles it as normal
03:16:56 <ais523> err, Linux the kernel, not the console
03:17:05 <shachaf> Interesting.
03:17:36 <shachaf> This sounds a lot like having the emulator attached as a debugger.
03:18:07 <shachaf> (In PTRACE_SYSEMU mode.)
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03:18:59 <shachaf> But why is this necessary for WINE? Windows doesn't have a system call interface.
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03:19:11 <ais523> <ais523> it's a lot more efficient than ptrace, and more efficient than seccomp
03:19:27 <ais523> and Windows does have a system call interface internally, it's just hidden from the user
03:19:50 <ais523> and not documented I think
03:20:04 <shachaf> Aha, is this https://lwn.net/Articles/824380/ ?
03:20:14 <shachaf> It says "Windows applications are increasingly executing system calls directly rather than going through the API".
03:20:28 <ais523> it could be; I noticed this in the Linux source documentation
03:20:53 <ais523> but yes, that article seems to be describing the same mechanism
03:21:16 <shachaf> I see. So they don't go through PTRACE_SYSEMU for most system calls, only for system calls that are executed directly by the application.
03:21:49 <shachaf> So depending on which part of memory the syscall instruction is in, it's either handled by a SYSEMU-like mechanism or is just hanled directly.
03:22:04 <ais523> ah right, it seems to be describing an older version of the same mechanism
03:22:14 <ais523> the spec changed a bit since that was written
03:22:17 <shachaf> What's the new version?
03:23:12 <ais523> I'm trying to remember
03:24:47 <ais523> guess I'll go read the docs again, they take a while to decompress though
03:25:16 <shachaf> I'm searching the Linux and WINE source for relevant strings and not finding them.
03:26:17 <ais523> hmm, I can't find it there either
03:26:27 <ais523> now I'm really confused, because I must have read this somewhere or else I wouldn't know about it
03:26:45 <ais523> it isn't in man prctl or man mmap
03:26:50 <ais523> unless I missed it
03:27:13 <int-e> shachaf: Oh n-step Steve got an update so that you can actually trust the map after you have all the kittens
03:27:30 <shachaf> int-e: Oh no, I'd better get back to that.
03:27:32 <shachaf> Let me see.
03:27:42 <ais523> maybe it's in a newer version of the Linux sources than I happen to have handy
03:27:47 <shachaf> Apparently I have 14 stars.
03:27:57 <ais523> (I'm looking at 5.4)
03:28:13 <shachaf> So I just need to get east of 8,9.
03:28:39 <shachaf> I have three solutions for getting the flag far enough for the stars, but none of them to get to the next room.
03:32:48 <shachaf> Everything I do is off by 1.
03:38:39 <shachaf> They end with the accessible 8-flag either where it is, or two squares north, or one square south.
03:38:55 <shachaf> If I could end with it one square north, it seems easy.
03:39:30 <shachaf> But to do that I'd have to do something like push the 7-flag left.
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03:51:44 <shachaf> The main problem is that when I run this for a while, it spins my fans up and gets slow and unpleasant.
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04:02:09 <shachaf> ais523: I found it: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/Documentation/admin-guide/syscall-user-dispatch.rst
04:02:12 <int-e> shachaf: Oh, I figured it out again.
04:04:17 <shachaf> My guess is I'm not on quite the right track.
04:05:35 <int-e> there's some pretty intricate parity hacking in this one
04:05:59 <ais523> shachaf: aha, that file isn't in my Linux source, so it must just be too new
04:06:15 <shachaf> Yes, it was added in Nov.
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04:23:12 <shachaf> Oh, if I'd looked a little more, I'd've found https://lwn.net/Articles/826313/ on LWN.
04:39:19 <int-e> shachaf: if you want to reduce the search space, this is a viable start: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/kitty3.png obviously this is a spoiler, even though what remains to be done is still a challenge, I believe.
04:42:22 <shachaf> Hmm, OK.
04:44:05 <shachaf> I've certainly been in that state many times.
04:44:46 <int-e> yeah that's expected
04:45:06 <int-e> I mean I kept comping back to it because it felt like the most promising one.
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05:05:59 <b_jonas> ais523: oh right! you need tricks to deliver syscalls that way now, because x86 has two generations of new system call instructions, rather than just the old 286 interrupt gate mechanism. if we still had the old mechanism, this would be trivial, because DOS, Win32, and Linux syscalls just used different interrupt numbers.
05:06:54 <int-e> two, oh, syscall and sysenter, in some order
05:08:22 <shachaf> b_jonas: Well, you'd need some kernel support regardless.
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05:08:38 <shachaf> int-e: I don't think anyone uses sysenter these days.
05:08:47 <shachaf> I'm not sure any amd64 CPU ever used it?
05:10:32 <b_jonas> shachaf: sure, but we already have kernel support that lets it forward interrupts originating in userspace to userspace, not only for real mode DOS emulation, but also for division by zero and floating point interrupts and a few other such weird things. they're not used often, but they exist.
05:11:10 <b_jonas> even the breakpoint interrupt is handled that way: the kernel just sends a signal to the process, filling out the siginfo struct, and if the debugger wishes, it catches that signal with ptrace.
05:11:25 <shachaf> Of course.
05:11:44 <int-e> shachaf: https://wiki.osdev.org/Sysenter#Compatibility_across_Intel_and_AMD ...funny :)
05:11:46 <shachaf> But you don't have a guarantee that no other system uses int $0x80
05:12:06 <shachaf> int-e: Oh no.
05:13:02 <b_jonas> whereas for system calls, the kernel actually has to distinguish between the three Linux syscall layers: 64-bit, x32 (deprecated, distinguished by a bit in the syscall number), 32-bit (distinguished by the userspace running 32-bit code); and I think BSD distinguishes between BSD syscalls and emulated Linux syscalls, though maybe those are the same syscalls with just a process-global setting or something
05:14:23 <b_jonas> "But you don't have a guarantee that no other system uses int $0x80" => real mode programs use it, sure, but emulating real mode programs needs a lot of custom support, both from the kernel side and from the userspace.
05:14:48 <b_jonas> but there aren't many protected mode supervisors, presumably Linux or whoever chose that interrupt number chose one that didn't clash with the other ones
05:16:03 <b_jonas> like, I've no idea what syscall interfaces Win16 and Win95 and WinNT and OS/2 and the two or three big DOS protected mode enchancers use, but Linus or whoever chose that syscall number probably knew about all that when they started to write x86_32 system-level code
05:16:56 <b_jonas> and if you want to emulate an operating system that is really uncooperative, then you need a full machine virtualizer anyway, and x86 has like three or four underlying mechanisms for that already
05:17:04 <shachaf> Windows doesn't have a stable ABI for this.
05:17:07 <b_jonas> although now that I think of it
05:17:26 <b_jonas> how does UML work?
05:17:35 <b_jonas> like how does it handle system calls from the processes it runs?
05:17:44 <b_jonas> user-mode linux, the one that HackEso uses
05:17:48 <b_jonas> `ping
05:17:49 <shachaf> I think it uses ptrace.
05:17:50 <HackEso> pong
05:17:51 <b_jonas> he's here
05:18:02 <shachaf> PTRACE_SYSEMU lets you handle system calls yourself.
05:18:20 <shachaf> Ah, `man ptrace` mentions that that's what it's for.
05:18:50 <b_jonas> that sounds rather impractical. I imagine the details get messy
05:20:22 <b_jonas> ah well, I consider myself a user-mode programmer, I don't want to get into the details of system programming
05:22:31 <b_jonas> of course I'm willing to do messy stuff in user space instead
05:23:52 <int-e> almost any use of ptrace gets messy :)
05:24:24 <b_jonas> esoteric stuff too
05:24:29 <b_jonas> int-e: yes
05:24:32 <shachaf> I just measured out of curiosity and `perf trace` is way way faster than strace.
05:24:44 <shachaf> Sometimes it drops events, but maybe that's that's what you want.
05:24:52 <shachaf> Too bad it needs a lot more permission.
05:25:05 <shachaf> (It looks like it needs the same permissions to trace a child as to trace the entire system.)
05:25:33 <ais523> presumably the syscall logging in `perf trace` happens in kernel mode, as opposed to `strace` where the kernel has to call back to a usermode process to do the logging
05:26:28 <b_jonas> shachaf: or you can use good old compiler level active tracing, where the compiler compiles short tracing sequences, like ones that increase a counter, to every function or every branch
05:26:39 <shachaf> Yes. I don't know much about how kernel tracepoints work.
05:27:06 <shachaf> b_jonas: Sure, of course if you can modify the program you can do much better.
05:27:28 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, and you don't have to recompile everything, only the compilation units you're interested in
05:27:51 <shachaf> But you have to be compiling the program in the first place.
05:27:58 <b_jonas> yes
05:28:13 <ais523> either that, or decompiling it
05:28:20 <ais523> but it's hard to know what asm-level transformations will be safe
05:28:51 <ais523> I've been wondering whether typical .s and/or .o files output by compilers do anything which would break if you moved things around, inserted instructions, etc.
05:29:10 <ais523> I think .o files don't have relocations for things like local jumps within a function, but .s files do
05:29:52 <shachaf> Facebook (?) has an optimizer that disassembles a .o, moves things around, and reassembles it.
05:29:59 <shachaf> If I remember correctly.
05:31:07 <shachaf> To move parts of functions that profiles show are cold to their own section, away from the hot code.
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05:50:33 <shachaf> int-e: OK, I got to the memorial.
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05:51:42 <int-e> yay
05:52:13 <int-e> (and the final star was just a red herring all the time)
05:52:32 <shachaf> Oh, you can't get it?
05:52:42 <shachaf> But I think I'm not done, because your map had an extra area.
05:52:45 <int-e> shachaf: But I did find the 8,9 level amazingly delicate.
05:53:06 <int-e> shachaf: Well, I *think* you can't get it.
05:53:35 <shachaf> Your map had an extra walled-off area at 8,16.
05:53:38 <int-e> shachaf: The map has changed, the solid walls connecting to hidden areas are no longer solid.
05:53:48 <shachaf> Oh no, I have to do it again?
05:53:52 <shachaf> I already went to 8,15 twice.
05:54:37 <int-e> I'm not sure which of 8,9 or 8,14 is harder
05:54:54 <int-e> the former uses the parity theme, but the latter has more degrees of freedom
05:55:04 <shachaf> 8,14 was certainly easier for me.
05:55:07 <shachaf> But still annoying.
05:55:37 <int-e> it wasn't clear to me at all where the 9 and 4 pieces are supposed to go
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05:56:36 <int-e> But when replaying today I still mostly remembered, and once those spots are fixed things become relatively easy.
05:56:38 <shachaf> It's not clear to me either, but I figured it out a couple of times.
05:57:20 <int-e> But... how do you have 15 stars then?
05:57:26 <int-e> Isn't there a star down there?
05:57:38 <shachaf> Yes, but I don't remember the solution.
05:58:05 * int-e is confused.
05:59:16 <shachaf> I got to 8,15 twice before, and now I don't remember how I did it. But it was much easier for me than 8,9.
05:59:24 <int-e> (I don't particularly like the new map... I wish there was a third line type for the former hidden areas.)
06:00:45 <shachaf> The map looks the same to me.
06:00:53 <shachaf> So I must not have gotten all the kittens.
06:01:09 <int-e> But you see that by the exlamation marks.
06:01:14 <int-e> +c
06:01:19 <shachaf> What exclamation marks?
06:01:57 <int-e> on the map, where there are kittens to be rescued :P
06:02:29 <int-e> Alos there are 9 of those.
06:02:58 <shachaf> I have 9 kittens and one goat.
06:03:47 <int-e> So if you look at the walls to the top-right of the hard ares, are those solid as in https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/kitty2.png or broken like ordinary connecting rooms?
06:04:05 <shachaf> OK, I'm at 8,15 and I see nothing unusual.
06:04:07 <int-e> It's possible that the game remembers some state... I played in a fresh profile today.
06:04:33 <shachaf> Oh, they're broken.
06:04:39 <int-e> that's the change
06:04:52 <int-e> and the same applies to 8,15
06:04:59 <shachaf> I see.
06:05:02 <int-e> which used to look like a seaparate room
06:05:08 <shachaf> So there's nothing left?
06:05:12 <int-e> wow, my typing sucks
06:05:53 <int-e> if you have seen the memorial and rescued the goat... I think you're done.
06:06:02 <int-e> s/seen/visited/
06:06:59 <shachaf> Seemswhoa, I just triggered a weird bug.
06:07:00 <int-e> And while it looks in 5,10 like you maybe could bring two kittens in from the right... I don't believe that's actually possible, and it would rather spoil the ending too.
06:07:25 <int-e> (5,10 is where the remaining 16th star is)
06:08:03 <int-e> I really resent that star. :P
06:09:38 <shachaf> Hmm.
06:09:44 <shachaf> And there's nothing to be done in 6,8 with a second kitten?
06:10:24 <int-e> hmmm
06:10:40 <shachaf> Or in 8,8
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06:11:08 <int-e> Well, there was nothing interesting there? Some ice, and I guess you can explore more of the room... but no exits, nothing to push around...
06:11:58 <int-e> So probably something to toy with, but no puzzle.
06:32:52 <shachaf> int-e: OK, I looked up whether the star is possible, and it is, and now I got it.
06:33:05 <shachaf> I should have spent more time trying to get it before being told it was possible.
06:33:52 <shachaf> This is a mild spoiler, but I think this explains why there's a door down the corridor to the memorial.
06:37:54 <int-e> hrm
06:39:01 <int-e> Isaw that opening
07:22:41 <shachaf> @metar koak
07:22:41 <lambdabot> KOAK 190653Z 36013G22KT 10SM FEW180 20/M09 A2994 RMK AO2 PK WND 04032/0633 SLP136 T02001089
07:22:42 <shachaf> @metar ksfo
07:22:42 <lambdabot> KSFO 190656Z 35013KT 10SM FEW200 19/M03 A2993 RMK AO2 SLP134 T01891028
07:23:09 <shachaf> If only I knew how to read that.
07:24:04 <shachaf> I guess PK WND means "peak wind".
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07:45:45 <int-e> shachaf: I see, thanks.
07:46:09 <shachaf> Now it says "100% complete".
07:46:24 <int-e> so it does
07:46:51 <int-e> tbf, that was some heavy duty cloning
07:47:07 <int-e> So I'm not too sad that I decided it wasn't possible last time.
07:49:49 <int-e> I was also misled by a comment that said "I got all 15 stars".
07:52:43 <int-e> still, I failed :)
07:54:02 <int-e> at least I now understand why there's a door and another teleport at the right end of the memorial
07:55:53 <shachaf> Right.
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07:58:21 <int-e> Oh since I love complaining about youtube lately... another thing that feels new is that I have to click `back` twice to get back to the index I found the video on... and that despite the URL being unchanged.
07:58:52 <int-e> . o O ( I bet this increases engagement with a video by precious seconds )
07:59:57 <int-e> I'm not sure whether this is deliberate or an artifact of being prompted for login (no) and cookies (sure, I'll accept them, good luck getting them back)
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09:57:22 <shachaf> @metar koak
09:57:22 <lambdabot> KOAK 190953Z 36021G26KT 10SM FEW250 17/M08 A2995 RMK AO2 PK WND 03039/0917 SLP140 T01671078
10:00:13 <int-e> warm
10:00:15 <int-e> dry
10:00:20 <int-e> @metar lowi
10:00:21 <lambdabot> LOWI 190950Z 28008KT CAVOK M06/M07 Q1022 R08/19//95 NOSIG
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10:04:37 <shachaf> It is windy.
10:05:20 <shachaf> "from the N (360 degrees) at 24 MPH (21 knots; 10.8 m/s) gusting to 30 MPH (26 knots; 13.4 m/s)"
10:05:28 <shachaf> Is that high? I have no idea.
10:05:57 <Taneb> @meta EGNT
10:05:58 <lambdabot> EGNT 190950Z 21001KT 1200 R25/P1500 BCFG FEW003 05/04 Q0997
10:06:26 <Taneb> Maybe I should move closer to an airport
10:07:07 <shachaf> In Italy?
10:07:14 <fizzie> @metar EGLL
10:07:15 <lambdabot> EGLL 190950Z AUTO 24015KT 9999 BKN016 12/09 Q1006 NOSIG
10:07:40 <Taneb> shachaf: I'm planning to move close to LIDE but @metar doesn't seem to know about it
10:07:59 <int-e> fizzie: hmm. https://windows2universe.org/earth/Atmosphere/wind_speeds.html strong gale/fresh breeze...
10:08:17 <int-e> err, shachaf:
10:09:00 <shachaf> Hmm.
10:09:06 <fizzie> m/s is the only unit of wind speed that I have any frame of reference to, because it's what Finnish weather reports use exclusively.
10:10:07 <shachaf> @metar ksfo
10:10:07 <lambdabot> KSFO 190956Z 02029G39KT 10SM CLR 16/M02 A2992 RMK AO2 PK WND 01039/0951 SLP130 T01611017
10:17:08 <int-e> fizzie: they tend to use km/h around here
10:17:28 <int-e> SI units are not saving the day this time
10:18:12 <Taneb> What's that in fur/ftn
10:18:35 <shachaf> hi Taneb
10:18:38 <shachaf> seen any good cats lately?
10:19:06 <Taneb> Not in person (not been leaving the house) but some friends sent my some photos
10:19:54 <shachaf> very good
10:20:21 <fizzie> I saw a cat in a video call the other day. More video calls should feature cats.
10:20:24 <fizzie> (It had a human dialing in too, it wasn't just the cat joining the meeting.)
10:20:30 <int-e> I'm having trouble with the concept of a good cat. :P
10:20:42 <shachaf> I agree with you, the word "good" is redundant.
10:20:51 <rain1> oooh its on
10:20:54 <shachaf> Just a longwinded way fo saying "seen any cats lately?".
10:20:56 <int-e> Nah, they range from evil to neutral.
10:21:15 * rain1 gets giant foam pointing hand
10:21:15 <fizzie> Certainly chaotic on the other axis.
10:21:21 <Taneb> int-e: here "good" is referring to their catness, not their morality
10:21:26 <Taneb> A good cat is a cat which is good at being a cat
10:21:32 <shachaf> Some cats might be evil, but obviously that doesn't preclude them from being good.
10:21:43 <int-e> felinity?
10:22:03 <Taneb> Similar to the use of good in "can someone recommend me a good book"
10:22:28 <shachaf> This is a different sense of the word "good", but perhaps also relevant: http://www.threepanelsoul.com/comic/dog-philosophy
10:23:20 <fizzie> 19. good, honest -- (not forged; "a good dollar bill") // could also refer to a cat that's actually a cat and not, e.g., a dog wearing a cat outfit
10:23:47 <shachaf> I will not stand for cat forgeries.
10:23:53 <shachaf> Only the real thing for me.
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10:49:11 <int-e> how about a sabretooth tiger?
10:52:36 <shachaf> Real.
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10:54:37 <Taneb> Tasmanian tiger?
10:55:49 <int-e> We could try to get Taneb to rescue some n-step kittens.
10:56:01 <Taneb> You could in principle
10:56:37 <int-e> Taneb: https://epicpikaguy.itch.io/n-step-steve-part-1
11:07:51 <int-e> shachaf: How are your hiding places :P
11:08:04 <shachaf> Hmm, nothing since I solved 609.
11:08:08 <shachaf> I should get back to it.
11:08:28 <shachaf> I did some of the next levels but there's still some left.
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11:12:58 <Taneb> This is a cute game, I will play more of it when I am not working
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11:29:20 <arseniiv> int-e: oh kittens
11:30:52 <arseniiv> for some reason my cat lounged at the edge of my desk today, maybe because there’s a radiator right nearby
11:34:14 <arseniiv> for many years she was disinterested in this table but some days ago she jumped on it and wanted to go behind the screen, though she couldn’t and then scampered away. Long ago she several times laid on my hand on the table and it seemed to be comfortable for her this way, but then she abandoned visiting the table
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12:46:46 <arseniiv> room 6,10 is so philosophical
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13:34:16 <esowiki> [[HQ9+~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80083&oldid=80003 * EZ132 * (-79)
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13:34:57 <shachaf> @metar koak
13:34:58 <lambdabot> KOAK 191253Z 01019G41KT 10SM CLR 15/M08 A2994 RMK AO2 PK WND 01041/1244 SLP137 T01501083
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13:36:24 <shachaf> It seems to be gusting up to "Stong gale".
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16:14:12 <b_jonas> <fizzie> (It had a human dialing in too)" => of course. cats regularly use humans as servants for tasks like opening cans, opening and closing doors, setting up video calls. they're too classy to do all that work themselves.
16:15:30 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> and not, e.g., a dog wearing a cat outfit" as in https://xkcd.com/629/
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19:28:59 <esowiki> [[Bit Stupid]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80084&oldid=56853 * Tetrapyronia * (+121) Added Hello, world! program
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20:24:34 <esowiki> [[Demons]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80085&oldid=46808 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) /* Sample code */ cats
20:28:35 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AmIdle * New user account
20:30:33 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80086&oldid=80063 * AmIdle * (+143) /* Introductions */
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20:35:58 <esowiki> [[User:AmIdle]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80087 * AmIdle * (+46) User page
20:36:19 <esowiki> [[User talk:AmIdle]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80088 * AmIdle * (+0) Created blank page
20:37:39 <esowiki> [[SE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80089&oldid=42984 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) /* Interpreter */ Cats
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23:23:15 <zzo38> Do you think the picture editor of Free Hero Mesh is good, or do you think that perhaps some function is missing? I thought one is missing but I didn't know what it is called, so hopefully you would know? Specifically, that you might define a picture not according to its pixels but rather the other picture it is based on, together with rotation and/or colour replacements.
23:56:51 <esowiki> [[User:Quintopia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80090&oldid=80026 * Quintopia * (+17) ldstr
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