←2021-02-07 2021-02-08 2021-02-09→ ↑2021 ↑all
00:02:41 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sethpeace * New user account
00:04:38 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80619&oldid=80573 * Sethpeace * (+156) Introduced myself.
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00:06:21 <esowiki> [[APLBAONWSJAS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80620&oldid=71458 * Sethpeace * (+31) Clarified limitations of python interpreter
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00:44:21 <esowiki> [[NyaScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80621&oldid=80614 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* Classes */ Typoze
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06:20:25 <shachaf> `5 w
06:20:29 <HackEso> 1/2:fortran//FORTRAN was a language in 1957, in which our noble, honourable ancestors wrote programs on punched cards and paper tape. \ stume//A stume cowears and goatears you. That is the main reason why the often look so ackward. \ toe//The TOE is the Toe of Everything, from which our universe sprang. \ `revert//`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See <https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/>. It is a builtin command so canno
06:20:30 <shachaf> `n
06:20:32 <HackEso> 2/2:t be called from other commands. \ lba//This channel is having a Little Big Adventure(tm) with Linear Bounded Automata in devices using Logical Block Addressing.
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09:25:02 <esowiki> [[AF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80622&oldid=80354 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+54) added implementation to box
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12:35:46 <nakilon> `? 5
12:35:48 <HackEso> ​`5 <cmd> is equivalent to repeating `` <cmd> 5 times, then splitting the output into irc-sized pieces. <cmd> defaults to "quote". See `1, `4 and `spam. Confusingly _not_ the obvious generalization of `2.
12:36:06 <nakilon> `? w
12:36:10 <HackEso> A w is everything a cow isn't.
12:36:18 <nakilon> `? n
12:36:19 <HackEso> ​`n is an abbreviation for `spam.
12:36:34 <nakilon> ` spam
12:36:35 <HackEso> ​? Permission denied
12:36:41 <nakilon> `? spam
12:36:43 <HackEso> Spam is a delicious meat product. See http://www.spamjamhawaii.com/
12:37:00 <nakilon> `? rasel
12:37:02 <HackEso> rasel? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:49:23 <fizzie> Ooh, the error message for `-space-anything is pretty confusing, since it tries to execute the empty string as a command. Funny, never noticed that before.
12:49:27 <fizzie> ` whatever
12:49:27 <HackEso> ​? Permission denied
12:49:45 <fizzie> `nosuchfile
12:49:46 <HackEso> nosuchfile? No such file or directory
12:54:38 <esowiki> [[IDK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80623&oldid=80597 * GrapeApple * (+234) /* Language */
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14:56:09 <b_jonas> `olist 1225
14:56:10 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1225.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
14:56:28 <b_jonas> NB. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots.html didn't seem to have updated, but the strip is there
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15:19:55 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Asodt * New user account
15:30:38 <b_jonas> "<ais523> […] neither is obviously equivalent to ((int65_t)x + (int65_t)y) / 2" I think you want uint65_t
15:32:03 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Short c1rcuit * New user account
15:32:39 <b_jonas> "<ais523> (I have a suspicion that subtraction from zero may be more efficient, though, although the answer isn't quite the same due how floating point works)" => that's because, weirdly, the additive unit of floating point numbers is minus zero, not zero.
15:35:45 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80624&oldid=80619 * Short c1rcuit * (+201) /* Introductions */
15:39:10 <APic>
15:44:08 <b_jonas> "<ais523> yep, 0.1 isn't an exact integer multiplier of *any* power of 2" => which is why all sorts of programming lists keep getting emails like "your interpreter is buggy, it says that 0.1 + 0.2 != 0.3", and, as I learned the hard way, if you find an actual bug that comes from the programmer being careless with floating point arithmetic, you have to alter your bug report so it clearly isn't one of
15:44:14 <b_jonas> those emails, or else it will be ignored
15:52:55 <b_jonas> ais523: is this JSFuck improvements thing documented anywhere? and how is the |> operator relevant? even if the > operator helps, isn't | basically a wasted character other than that?
15:56:24 <b_jonas> I think that pipeline operator thing sounds like one of those features that makes beginner coders write unreadable code, and spend an inordinate amount of time posting questions about "how do I do <foo> with the pipeline operator" when in fact they shouldn't be using the pipeline operator at all
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16:29:42 <Sgeo> New OOTS also didn't show up in RSS
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16:38:15 <int-e> there's only one explanation for this: time travel
16:41:19 <b_jonas> int-e: my guess is that there's insufficient automation and they forgot some manual step in uploading the strip. something like that happened to DMM recently.
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16:45:56 <int-e> b_jonas: I think my explanation is more interesting
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17:28:37 <int-e> oh... another AME mechanic
17:45:29 <int-e> maybe I should write "interaction" instead of "mechanic"
18:03:12 <b_jonas> what's AME? is that the puzzle game with the cats and chairs and islands?
18:09:30 <int-e> hmm. well mostly trees and islands and water and rafts
18:09:55 <int-e> there are exhibits though... cats and chairs may feature in those
18:10:02 <int-e> A Monster's Expedition
18:11:33 <int-e> https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/ame-new.jpg ... original situation to the left; result of knocking over the tree to the right
18:11:45 <int-e> guess the last result :)
18:12:11 <int-e> (or glance at https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/ame-news.jpg)
18:16:37 <int-e> shachaf: I'm beginning to think that there may be 600 islands, exactly
18:17:54 <int-e> (by the game's count, so some connected landmasses count as several islands)
18:20:50 <int-e> b_jonas: actually your list seems like a mix of AME (islands), {5,n}-step Steve (cats) and Hiding Spot (chairs).
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18:54:17 <nakilon> so while my first attempt to automate the tagging with the IRC messages training set size of 10 had only ~40% accuracy I've tried 4 different NLP tools and 8 combinated approaches to reach the accuracy of 60% and 80% with the training set size of 50
18:55:45 <nakilon> and now I guess I made an automated search for a "bad entries of the training set" that I might need to correct/improve to improve the quality https://dpaste.org/KisW/slim
18:56:01 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/Conjectures]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80625 * Hakerh400 * (+3091) Conjectures
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18:58:06 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80626&oldid=80197 * Hakerh400 * (+65) Conjectures
18:59:22 <nakilon> what I don't like is that bash piping does not break the chain if some piece didn't exit with 0 status code
18:59:43 <nakilon> quick googling didn't provide any simple solution
18:59:59 <rain1> set -euf -o pipefail
19:05:41 <nakilon> oh, I forgot about it, thanks
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19:26:08 <shachaf> `smlist 519
19:26:10 <HackEso> smlist 519: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
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19:38:11 <vndr> https://cstheory.stackexchange.com/questions/48349/is-this-variant-of-bitwise-cyclic-tag-turing-complete
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19:47:37 <nakilon> funny how SO thought "hm, we wanted to have a place for programmers, not coders" and made Programmers.SE
19:48:05 <nakilon> then they thought "damn, it's still coders, we need another one" and made CSTheory.SE
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20:08:12 <myname> what's the difference between a coder and a programmer?
20:09:53 <rain1> coders code, programmers program
20:09:59 <esowiki> [[BSS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80627&oldid=80609 * CatLooks * (+22)
20:11:26 <kmc> neither one is CS theory
20:11:28 <kmc> which is closer to math
20:11:45 <kmc> really it is math
20:12:01 <rain1> the math of algorithms and stuff..
20:12:11 <rain1> as opposed to like
20:12:16 <rain1> the science of how computers work
20:12:25 <rain1> electricity and RAM and whatever
20:12:45 <kmc> "Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes." - Edsger Dijkstra
20:13:11 <kmc> I think "informatics" is a better name
20:13:26 <rain1> <writes computer science on a blackboard and then crosses it out> - abelson
20:13:56 <int-e> hmmm
20:14:20 <int-e> write "computer science", then cross out "computer", then cross out "science"
20:14:22 <esowiki> [[BSS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80628&oldid=80627 * CatLooks * (+35)
20:14:40 <kmc> sure the most popular sort of computers use electricity but you can also build computers out of pneumatic tubes, or strands of DNA or whatever, and apply the same concepts from "computer science"
20:14:56 <kmc> therefore the stuff specific to electricity is better seen as part of electrical engineering
20:15:03 <myname> kmc: informatics is exactly what it's called in german
20:15:06 <kmc> I know
20:15:34 <myname> i am still confused to how people don't know what informatics is but are perfectly fine with bioinformatics
20:15:44 <kmc> biocomputerscience
20:18:55 <kmc> semiconductor digital logic is really a remarkably strong abstraction
20:18:56 <int-e> DNA data processing
20:19:17 <kmc> it's very rare that programmers at even the lowest level of systems programming need to care about the electrical characteristics of transistors on the chips they're using
20:29:04 <int-e> kmc: kind of reminded of this... https://www.damninteresting.com/on-the-origin-of-circuits/ 'Five individual logic cells were functionally disconnected from the rest⁠— with no pathways that would allow them to influence the output⁠— yet when the researcher disabled any one of them the chip lost its ability to discriminate the tones.'
20:31:03 <nakilon> 23:11:45 <kmc> really it is math
20:31:19 <nakilon> but they already have three different Math SE )
20:31:27 <nakilon> for nearly the same reason
20:33:19 <nakilon> 23:12:25 <rain1> electricity and RAM and whatever
20:33:26 <nakilon> but that's now what computer science is about
20:34:39 <kmc> int-e: interesting
20:34:40 <int-e> . o O ( rowhammer )
20:35:00 <nakilon> 23:15:34 <myname> i am still confused to how people don't know what informatics is but are perfectly fine with bioinformatics
20:35:20 <nakilon> they are too busy growing bacterias in Petri dishes
20:35:41 <kmc> meanwhile i'm growing fungi in Petri dishes
20:35:45 <kmc> ...and some bacteria by accident
20:35:46 <int-e> there is the security research corner of computer science that cares a great deal about breaks in the abstraction.
20:35:54 <nakilon> big DNA data
20:36:00 <kmc> int-e: yeah, that is something i've always found interesting about security as a field
20:36:21 <kmc> successful attacks often involve cleverness at multiple layers of abstraction, breaking the tidy assumptions which separate them
20:37:09 <nakilon> > yet when the researcher disabled any one of them the chip lost its ability to discriminate the tones
20:37:10 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:42: error: <hint>:1:42: error: parse error on input ‘of’
20:37:35 <kmc> and this means exploits are often /funny/ too
20:37:39 <nakilon> I remember how in my C++Builder code there was a "int i;" that wasn't used but if I delete it the program crashed
20:37:59 <kmc> because cleverly subverting expectations is core to much of humor
20:38:07 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80629&oldid=80591 * Short c1rcuit * (+13) Added Defunc to the language list
20:38:30 <kmc> nakilon: lol
20:39:12 <kmc> yeah the abstraction boundary of C or C++ has big gaping holes labeled "undefined behavior" and if you stray into those areas then truly spooky action at a distance is not just possible but expected
20:39:58 <nakilon> I feel like for some reason compiler were just too buggy 15 years ago
20:40:14 <kmc> a beginner C programmer curses the segfault; an expert thanks the gods for a segfault because it is the best and easiest to debug consequence of UB
20:40:15 <int-e> kmc: https://www.minitool.com/news/hdd-use-as-rudimentary-microphone.html comes to mind as a surprising (yet understandable) sidechannel
20:40:40 <int-e> and yeah, security research is full of these kind of things
20:43:48 <nakilon> there are tools to receive AM radio signal on Macbook somehow
20:43:57 <nakilon> it somehow interferes with CPU
20:44:46 <kmc> I wonder if the five 'disconnected' logic cells in that FPGA experiment were really interacting with the active logic or if they were necessary just to influence the place-and-route algorithm into a configuration that produces the right timings
20:45:16 <kmc> cause the way it describes the rest of the circuit (asynchronous, lots of oscillating feedback) would make it very timing dependent
20:46:07 <kmc> as indeed it would have to be to fulfill its purpose as a frequency discriminator
20:46:15 <nakilon> щh no
20:46:25 <nakilon> not even receiver but AM transmitter! https://github.com/fulldecent/system-bus-radio
20:46:38 <kmc> to really understand the meaning of the experiment you would have to dig into the structure of that particular FPGA
20:46:43 <nakilon> unfortunately I don't have an AM receiver to test it
20:47:21 <kmc> cool
20:47:25 <kmc> seems like an update of http://www.erikyyy.de/tempest/
20:48:51 <kmc> i've definitely picked up sounds coming out of my laptop's circuitry on my UHF ham radio
20:49:08 <kmc> also when i transmit on that radio it would turn on the motion-sensitive floodlights on the back deck at my old apartment
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20:55:03 <kmc> you can connect a wire to a Raspberry Pi GPIO pin and send shortwave radio transmissions around the world https://github.com/JamesP6000/WsprryPi
20:56:55 <kmc> (though you should include a low-pass filter to avoid radiating harmonics)
20:59:52 <kmc> it is pretty neat how simple / cheap / small / low-power you can make a shortwave radio transciever and have global communications without any sort of infrastructure in the middle
21:01:39 <TheLie> kmc, That's the ham radio version of home automation i suppose
21:03:13 <kmc> :D
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21:59:15 <esowiki> [[Defunc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80630 * Short c1rcuit * (+3286) Added Defunc
22:00:35 <esowiki> [[Defunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80631&oldid=80630 * Short c1rcuit * (-24) Replaced factorial program with a more efficient one
22:04:19 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80632&oldid=80462 * Short c1rcuit * (+122) Added Defunc to the list
22:13:22 <esowiki> [[Brain:D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80633&oldid=79988 * Sethpeace * (+11) Fixed code formatting
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22:13:40 <esowiki> [[Brain:D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80634&oldid=80633 * Sethpeace * (+1) grammar
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22:17:12 <b_jonas> int-e: wait, #esoteric was playing *three* puzzle games, not just two?
22:17:19 <b_jonas> as in recently]
22:18:32 <int-e> b_jonas: more. somebody touched Baba is You, I think
22:19:20 <int-e> and I may have talked about Pipe Push
22:20:00 <int-e> Though I think nobody else played/plays it so I didn't say much about it beyond some initial discoveries.
22:20:13 <nakilon> зlay Zachtronix games
22:20:17 <nakilon> *play
22:21:00 <int-e> oh right, I played exapunks recently too
22:21:05 <nakilon> (stupid old macOS bug that when you switch from the app with different active keyboard layout it does not switch in time when you start typing)
22:21:12 <int-e> talked about it to fizzie, mostly
22:21:55 <nakilon> people are having weekly contests in Opus Magnum on reddit
22:21:57 <int-e> b_jonas: well, the point is... we really have a lot of those games :P
22:22:38 <nakilon> personally I liked the TIS-100 and Infinifactory the most
22:23:00 <int-e> but infinifactory didn't know when to stop
22:23:52 <nakilon> neither Opus Magnum and Spacechem did
22:25:03 <int-e> At least for me, the "Atropos station" levels were a burden, and the "The homeward fleet" products were all way too big to even attempt planning out.
22:25:44 <nakilon> ah you mean the number of levels? I don't remember where I stopped
22:25:49 <fizzie> I think I played Spacechem at least very close to all the way through.
22:25:54 <fizzie> Opus Magnum I haven't played.
22:26:21 <int-e> it's not the number of the levels, it's the size/complexity of the solution
22:26:47 <fizzie> Yeah, I definitely did that laser thing at least.
22:27:05 <fizzie> (Very terribly, but still.)
22:27:35 <nakilon> add in Steam? ..D
22:30:49 <int-e> Oh right, I uninstalled Infinifactory a few weeks ago. Good choice.
22:31:54 <nakilon> at least it was the one Zachtronics game that had a story
22:31:59 <int-e> Don't get me wrong though... except for the last 2 sets the levels were mostly fun.
22:32:22 <nakilon> not boring text dialogs like in Opus Magnum but you was playing it in first person like in a sci-fi movie
22:32:30 <int-e> I just prefer games that end before they become a chore.
22:32:46 <nakilon> listening to messages left by other sotry characters
22:32:51 <rain1> i liked the text in opus agnum
22:33:01 <int-e> Which is a hard balance to strike because the point where things become a chore is very subjective.
22:33:33 <nakilon> games should be infinite
22:33:39 <nakilon> or infinitely replayable
22:35:09 <kmc> why would I play Shenzhen I/O when I could play KiCad
22:35:57 <nakilon> leaderboard I guess
22:35:58 <zzo38> Some games can be infinite or infinitely replayable; other kinds it doesn't work so well.
22:36:08 <nakilon> Shenzhen was too complex though
22:36:38 <zzo38> Perhaps, also, make up your own game, too.
22:37:00 <int-e> Oh I actually found something from Infinifactory... https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/2018-09-19-04-38-28.gif
22:37:20 <zzo38> (I have also done, and am also in the process of making a game engine too. But, you could also do, if you want to do.)
22:37:32 <nakilon> these games have Steam Workshop where people are making puzzles for each other -- I think Portal chambers were fun
22:39:33 <int-e> (that was by far the weirdest assembly gadget I made... as I recall it, it only worked at one particular speed)
22:39:44 <nakilon> I started making own not necessary "game" but "visualisation" engine in ruby2d but it's segfaulting, lol
22:40:15 <nakilon> and Dragonruby that people use to create games for Itch.io -- it's mruby that is too limited as for me, no gems, etc.
22:40:28 <nakilon> no even normal file and network interfaces
22:42:06 <zzo38> There are other systems to try to write the game on too, including ZZT, NES/Famicom, Glulx, or just using C codes with SDL or curses
22:42:44 <nakilon> ruby2d (and probably Dragonruby too) is built on top of SDL
22:44:14 <nakilon> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkMqUPJU4Bc
22:45:47 <zzo38> (Or, you can program in DOS)
22:46:04 <esowiki> [[User:Erinius/Ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80635&oldid=80592 * Erinius * (+26)
22:52:19 <zzo38> Have you used any of the other stuff that I have mentioned?
22:53:28 <nakilon> I used curses for a tcpdump wrapper back in 2013
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23:05:30 <zzo38> OK
23:13:18 <fizzie> Story-wise, the bit I liked about EXAPUNKS is that the chatroom simulation felt very realistic, like it was just real IRC logs.
23:14:45 <int-e> exapunk also managed the chore level nicely for me... in particular, the main story ended and it was clear that the larger tasks that followed were bonus tasks
23:16:06 <int-e> but yeah, I alson liked the exapunk chat logs. and the "zines" too.
23:16:23 <nakilon> everything is a nobus task
23:17:17 <int-e> fizzie: oh and let's not forget the easter eggs (switching off the lights in the pizza parlour...)
23:18:21 <int-e> oh well, bedtime I suppose
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23:39:52 <someoneelse> hello
23:41:04 <nakilon> hi
23:43:42 <someoneelse> cheers from brazil
23:44:52 <someoneelse> is anyone there
23:45:11 <someoneelse> ?
23:46:23 <someoneelse> nakilon, what are you doing here on #esoteric?
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