←2021-03-24 2021-03-25 2021-03-26→ ↑2021 ↑all
00:08:46 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81537&oldid=81525 * EnilKoder * (+129) /* Logic and Control Structures */
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00:24:15 <esowiki> [[Ziim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81538&oldid=47129 * Timwi * (-1) grammar
00:32:44 <esowiki> [[APLBAONWSJAS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81539&oldid=80620 * Salpynx * (-31) Undo revision 80620 by [[Special:Contributions/Sethpeace|Sethpeace]] ([[User talk:Sethpeace|talk]]) Have you tried it? It does run nested copies of itself with `EXECUTE(APLBAONWSJAS)`
00:36:43 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81540&oldid=81537 * EnilKoder * (+735) suites
00:39:43 <esowiki> [[Ziim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81541&oldid=81538 * Timwi * (+87) /* Useful constructs */ Explanation
01:17:03 <kmc> more programs should be quines
01:17:18 <kmc> i should be able to run any program with --dump-source and get all the source code straight out of the binary
01:17:41 <kmc> and it should be easy to set up a build environment which satisfies this
01:18:05 <kmc> this would prevent the problem where you've lost the source to a running binary, or can't remember which version it was built from (including possibly any ad hoc patches)
01:18:06 <zzo38> For some types of distribution that might be useful, I suppose.
01:19:52 <zzo38> Another way to avoid forgetting which version it is built from, though, is to embed the hash of the source code in the binary.
01:22:57 <kmc> yes
01:23:04 <kmc> and that is fairly common
01:23:25 <kmc> but it doesn't solve the problem with patches that might not be present wherever you are looking for the hash
01:24:13 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose you are right about that. Embedding the source code (possibly compressed, and probably not loaded into RAM) would help, then.
01:36:29 <kmc> tar czf source.tar.gz $(find -name '*.c') && objcopy -I binary -O elf64-x86-64 source.tar.gz source.o
01:37:36 <zzo38> The source code might consist of additional files than just the *.c files, such as *.h files, and sometimes other files which some of the C files are generated from
01:41:11 <kmc> sure
01:41:17 <kmc> 'tis just an example of the idea
01:41:38 <fizzie> `git archive HEAD | gzip -9 > source.tar.gz && ...`, under the assumption that your version control knows what's actually needed?
01:41:40 <HackEso> git: 'archive HEAD | gzip -9 > source.tar.gz && ...`, under the assumption that your version control knows what's actually needed? ' is not a git command. See 'git --help'.
01:41:50 <fizzie> HackEso: I wasn't talking to you, really.
01:41:51 <kmc> that's good
01:41:57 <zzo38> Yes, OK.
01:42:34 <kmc> although it might also include some things like documentation or image files that are either shipped with the binary anyway, or are not needed to explain the binary's behavior
01:42:56 <zzo38> Is it possible with objcopy to give a name to the section added in this way?
01:42:59 <fizzie> `` git status # just curious
01:43:00 <HackEso> fatal: not a git repository (or any parent up to mount point /) \ Stopping at filesystem boundary (GIT_DISCOVERY_ACROSS_FILESYSTEM not set).
01:43:31 <fizzie> I think it is.
01:43:41 <zzo38> In the case of Fossil, you can use "fossil ls" for a list of the files in the repository.
01:44:26 <kmc> zzo38: yes, with --rename-section .data=whatever
01:45:01 <zzo38> fizzie: I thought HackEso uses Mercurial?
01:45:19 <zzo38> kmc: O, OK.
01:45:28 <kmc> but, regardless of section names, you also get symbols _binary_foo_start, _binary_foo_end, and _binary_foo_size, where foo is derived from the name of the input file
01:45:29 <fizzie> It does, there's just git installed on the system too.
01:47:11 <kmc> so you can do something like: extern const char _binary_source_start[]; extern size_t _binary_source_size; fwrite(_binary_source_start, _binary_source_size, 1, stdout);
01:48:20 * kmc ->
01:48:25 <zzo38> kmc: O, OK, that will work, then. However, then it will be loaded into RAM; you might not want to load it until it is used. Will it defer loading if you give the section a different name than ".data"?
01:49:08 <fizzie> There's apparently something like `--set-section-flags source=noload` you could probably use (together with the renaming).
01:54:35 * int-e learns about `pigz`
01:55:11 <int-e> "pigz does what gzip does, but spreads the work over multiple processors and cores when compressing."
01:55:30 <int-e> so a bit similar to pbzip2
01:56:01 <shachaf> man pigz
01:56:05 <shachaf> Oops.
01:56:09 <esowiki> [[User:Aldous zodiac]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81542&oldid=36516 * Aldous zodiac * (+13)
01:57:12 <esowiki> [[WARP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81543&oldid=68584 * Aldous zodiac * (+33)
01:57:25 <fizzie> I was going to be all "how's that even possible", but I guess it just splits to chunks, it's not like there'd be any infinitely long backreferences anyway?
01:57:52 <int-e> right, it splits into chunks
01:58:34 <shachaf> I embed binary assets into programs with ld like that.
01:58:50 <fizzie> "The input blocks, while compressed independently, have the last 32K of the previous block loaded as a preset dictionary to preserve the compression effectiveness of deflating in a single thread. This can be turned off using the -i or --independent option, so that the blocks can be decompressed independently for partial error recovery or for random access." Okay.
01:58:56 <int-e> "The input blocks, while compressed independently, have the last 32K of the previous block loaded as a preset dictionary..." oh. decompression isn't parallelized
01:58:59 <shachaf> cc -Wl,--format=binary -Wl,file -Wl,--format=default
01:59:13 <shachaf> You also want -Wl,-z,noexecstack if you do that, otherwise it makes the stack executable.
01:59:14 <int-e> fair enough
01:59:47 <fizzie> Fun fact: Go 1.16 added a built-in way for embedding binary assets.
01:59:58 <shachaf> But someone pointed out there's another trick: .incbin directives in assembly.
02:00:09 <shachaf> I made a note to investigate it because I think it seemed a bit nicer or something.
02:00:40 <fizzie> (You can embed a single file as a []byte, or as a string, or a bunch of files as an object that implements an interface that you can ask to open individual files from.)
02:00:56 <zzo38> Something I wanted is a preprocessor command in C to include arbitrary files as data; I read that it has been made a proposal, using a #embed command. (I don't know if any compiler supports this yet)
02:01:21 <fizzie> https://golang.org/pkg/embed/ -- the "special comments" syntax is a little weird, but I appreciate not having to pick between the three dozen aftermarket data-embedding packages.
02:01:35 <fizzie> Yeah, there's a C23 proposal for #embed.
02:02:07 <fizzie> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n2592.htm
02:04:30 <int-e> Ye/Nay/Abstain... wait, were there 4 or 3 abstentions?
02:05:28 <fizzie> 3, apparently.
02:05:37 <fizzie> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n2516.pdf page 23 or so.
02:08:54 <fizzie> And while we're at it, http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n2628.htm has more discussion and another poll: "Do we want to allow #embed to appear in any context that is different from an initialization of a character array?" => 5-8-6 "leaning in the direction of no but not clear"
02:12:23 <fizzie> There's also a defer proposal for C23. And a quadruple-stack paper introducing type inference (`auto`) and lambdas. I don't follow things closely enough to guess how likely they're to make it.
02:14:41 <int-e> surely the first one will be deferred to a later version :P
02:15:54 <fizzie> The secure_clear / memset_explicit function seems to be likely to get into C23, FWIW.
02:17:52 <kmc> fizzie: yeah, iirc you can concatenate zlib streams to get a valid zlib stream
02:18:04 <kmc> re on-demand loading: isn't that basically accomplished by paging anyway
02:18:28 <kmc> .data isn't really copied into memory in full when your program starts, it's only mapped into memory and then copied on demand
02:18:47 <kmc> although with relocations and stuff there may be a lot of "demand" before the program even starts
02:18:55 <zzo38> I think that #embed should be allowed anywhere, but it should be optimized for the case of appearing inside of a character array.
02:25:15 <kmc> what would it mean elsewhere?
02:26:48 <zzo38> It would expand to a sequence of numbers (one for each byte in the input file) separated by commas.
02:27:30 <zzo38> Inside of the initialization of a char array though, this expansion should be bypassed and it should be optimized.
02:27:53 <zzo38> (An alternative would be for it to be expanded as a string literal.)
02:31:10 <kmc> I see
02:33:17 <zzo38> (At least, it is my opinion.)
02:59:40 <zzo38> (This way, it can work even if the preprocessor is used alone.)
03:20:26 <kmc> zzo38: yes, I suppose it could be a useful feature for other languages, not just C
03:20:39 <kmc> I was looking into using CPP with OpenSCAD the other day, although I forgot why
03:21:18 <kmc> I already wrote my own custom preprocessor for OpenSCAD too, but that is for a specific purpose and not general
03:21:26 <zzo38> As long as the tokenizing is similar, the C proprocessor could be used.
03:21:42 <kmc> yeah, it's very similar to C on a lexical level
03:22:34 <kmc> https://www.openscad.org/cheatsheet/
03:22:49 <kmc> maybe the only weird lexical thing are the "modifier characters" which you can prefix to any tree node
03:23:19 <kmc> also I guess variables starting with $ are not in C
03:23:32 <kmc> and there's 'include' and 'use', both of which use <...> as pathname delimeters
03:23:39 <kmc> why, I have no idea, probably just to make it look like C
03:27:58 <kmc> part of me feels that something like OpenSCAD should really be an embedded DSL in a general-purpose lang (and indeed there are embeddings for Python and Haskell and probably others)
03:28:11 <kmc> but it's also kind of nifty for it to be its own thing
03:30:52 <fizzie> Variables with a $ in them are a "common extension" in C, I imagine they work pretty widely in preprocessors too.
03:30:57 <fizzie> (C11 J.5.2p1: "Characters other than the underscore _, letters, and digits, that are not part of the basic source character set (such as the dollar sign `$`, or characters in national character sets) may appear in an identifier.")
03:34:04 <fizzie> Fun thing about C and identifiers: almost all universal character names are legal in identifiers (it's not by Unicode class or anything, it's by including vast ranges of characters), and GCC error messages translate them into UTF-8 when output. Hence things like...
03:34:08 <fizzie> `` echo 'void func(void) {} int main(void) { \ufefffunc(); }' | gcc -x c - -o /dev/null -c
03:34:09 <HackEso> ​<stdin>: In function ‘main’: \ <stdin>:1:37: warning: implicit declaration of function ‘func’; did you mean ‘func’? [-Wimplicit-function-declaration]
03:35:07 <fizzie> (U+FE47 .. U+FFFD inclusive are for example all legal.)
03:35:58 <fizzie> (As well as U+3040 .. U+D7FF inclusive.)
03:38:09 <zzo38> It seems like it should allow them, if it allows non-ASCII characters at all, then any bytes with the high bit set should be allowed, whether they are valid UTF-8 or not. If it allows escapes like that, then \ufeff should just be converted as UTF-8 and compiled as such, presumably (except I think Windows uses UTF-16, so then it on Windows it would use UTF-16 instead)
03:39:45 <zzo38> kmc: It look like the "include" command in OpenSCAD is using <...>; if you are using the C preprocessor then presumably you will not need the OpenSCAD include command since you can use the C include command instead. But, OpenSCAD uses # as a operator, which might conflict with the C preprocessor. Other than that, it look like it could be used with the C preprocessor.
03:42:22 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, an embedded DSL in something else would be another way; looking at it, I think perhaps as an extension to PostScript
03:42:53 <zzo38> (which already has many of these things, but not 3D nor animations)
03:44:09 <kmc> yeah
03:44:20 <kmc> 3D PostScript would be interesting
03:47:50 <zzo38> (Actually, 3D and animations are a few of the features I wanted in the next version of PostScript. Although, I don't expect they are going to make another one (they specifically said they won't), so someone else would have to do it. I had other ideas of new features too, as well as a few removed features.)
03:48:54 <zzo38> (Removed features would include DSC (which is obsolete, since you would use PDF or something like that instead), the /PageCount system parameter (only applicable to printers, not to computers), the job server, and a few other things.)
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09:36:24 <esowiki> [[DriftLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81544&oldid=81338 * Hakerh400 * (+53) Update the hello-world example
09:58:17 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> Fun fact: Go 1.16 added a built-in way for embedding binary assets." => rustc has a builtin for this, called include_bytes!, which is a compile-time macro that reads the whole binary contents of a file (the name given as the parameter of the macro) and gives a literal of a byte array
09:59:10 <b_jonas> and, if you want, you can bind that to a global name that you can access from a C program that you link the rust object file into
10:02:48 <b_jonas> "<kmc> 3D PostScript would be interesting" => don't we have like two of them? PovRay for raytracing, and another one whose name I don't remember for 3D printing and possibly other CNC?
10:03:19 <Taneb> OpenSCAD??
10:04:58 <zzo38> 3D PostScript might be suitable for implementations that support a output device with 3D (which might be one that can render 3D and then make the result an image which can be used on a 2D output device,); not for general use. The same is true of animation; it won't work if the output is to a printer or to a still picture file, but can be suitable for screen output, or animated GIF/PNG
10:06:14 <b_jonas> Taneb: possibly. I'm not much into machining or 3D printing so I just didn't bother to remember its name
10:06:39 <b_jonas> (or plasma cutting etc, let's not be exclusive of other CNC tasks in favor of the two most common ones)
10:08:42 <Taneb> I messed around with it a little a while back
10:12:51 <nakilon> 20:49:58 <kmc> G1 X113.778 Y85.60300000000001 E0.1142
10:12:57 <nakilon> and you ran out of 3d printer ink
10:14:46 <nakilon> is there a difference between ` and `` when you talk to HackEso?
10:15:17 <b_jonas> nakilon: see the very unfinished https://esolangs.org/wiki/HackEso page
10:16:21 <b_jonas> and yes, plasma cutting and turning (machining an object on a lathe) are 2D tasks, not 3D (or perhaps 3D tasks, not 4D if you want to count time as an axis, but then apparently even during the console wars, 2D video games weren't sold as 3D on that basis),
10:16:43 <b_jonas> I'm just saying I'm not much into these and don't have a workshop where I'm doing anything like that, 2D or 3D, CNC or not
10:17:24 <b_jonas> about the most complicated such operation I do at home is resewing a button onto a shirt
10:19:21 <nakilon> do you guys have dreams where you solve some programming problem but when you wake up you don't remember the solution?
10:20:16 <Taneb> Yeah, occasionally
10:20:27 <zzo38> Yes, sometimes I do
10:20:44 <zzo38> (although, maybe sometimes that isn't an actual solution anyways)
10:26:34 <nakilon> are there any alternative dc implementations?
10:27:30 <nakilon> I remember that it has some problem with input (like detecting the EOF) so to solve puzzles you had to edit the input to make it parsable by your dc code
10:27:54 <nakilon> it sucked but there was no solution; I wonder if there is any alternative implementation that solves these problems
10:39:31 <b_jonas> nakilon: there are two, aren't there? the GNU one https://www.gnu.org/software/bc/ and the FreeBSD one are independent implementations I think
10:40:18 <b_jonas> and the solution is to just not use dc, it's an obsolete tool
10:41:28 <b_jonas> I don't keep an OpenBSD core source tree on my hard disk anymore, so I can't easily check what implementations these use, but I do believe it has a dc in its core
10:41:57 <b_jonas> http://man.openbsd.org/dc suggests so
10:42:21 <b_jonas> and it can't use GNU bc because that's under the GNU PL which is an incompatible license for the OpenBSD core
10:43:24 <nakilon> I suppose they implement the same spec
10:43:52 <nakilon> "just not use dc, it's an obsolete tool "
10:44:02 * nakilon checked the channel name
10:44:21 <nakilon> solving things in dc was fun
10:44:25 <b_jonas> yes yes, a few people write dc obfuscations
10:44:43 <nakilon> the "obfuscation" is relative
10:44:44 <b_jonas> but when you do, you don't get to complain about what you want to add to dc, because the whole point is that they run on the users' existing dc
10:44:50 <b_jonas> that they already had installed on their computer back then
10:44:52 <nakilon> java is obfuscated for me
10:45:01 <b_jonas> these days even that doesn't work, because debian just doesn't install dc by default
10:45:16 <nakilon> it's default in macos
10:50:33 <b_jonas> suddenly I'm reminded of this old thing:
10:50:40 <zzo38> I still use dc for some calculations
10:51:07 <b_jonas> \uppercase{\def\ma{^^*}\def\mo{^^4}\def\mu{^^8 }} \message{\^^-^^!^^`^^5^^3^^4^^`^^!^^.^^/^^4^^(^^%^^2 \^^-^^/^^`^^%\^^-^^5^^`^^(^^!^^#^^+^^%^^2}\bye
10:52:32 <nakilon> isn't it missing the "Stack-based" category? https://esolangs.org/wiki/Dc
10:54:36 <nakilon> wow I didn't know about this category https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Before_1993
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11:21:38 <esowiki> [[Dc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81545&oldid=75741 * Zzo38 * (+25) +[[Category:Stack-based]]
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13:54:33 <int-e> hmm I'm missing a `git` lowlevel command... how do I switch branches without updating the working directory (I don't care about the index much)...
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14:09:24 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81546&oldid=81540 * EnilKoder * (-49) /* Chat */
14:17:31 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81547&oldid=81546 * EnilKoder * (+443) /* Logic and Control Structures */
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14:49:04 <fizzie> Hmm. I guess that'd really be a matter of changing .git/HEAD without doing anything else, but I don't know what command would do that either. I guess all the `git reset` modes "deference that pointer" in the sense of affecting the current branch's head, rather than what the current branch is.
14:51:43 <fizzie> Maybe `git symbolic-ref -m "I'm a real git wizard" HEAD <something>`?
14:51:53 <fizzie> int-e: ^
14:56:00 <int-e> Plausible... hmm. does the -m end up in the reflog? I'll try later.
14:57:13 <fizzie> Yeah, -m seemed to be the message for the reflog.
14:57:43 <int-e> Ah, right, it's written in the manpage if you actually read the part describing -m.
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15:28:28 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81548&oldid=81520 * Not applicable * (+514) forgot to do newline action; also added stupidExpr
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17:39:43 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81549&oldid=81547 * EnilKoder * (+553)
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17:42:00 <kmc> 03:17 < b_jonas> about the most complicated such operation I do at home is resewing a button onto a shirt
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17:42:53 <kmc> see i consistently fail at that :P
17:42:53 <kmc> i'm terrible at hand sewing, and I've tried enough to know that I won't magically get better with a small amount of practice
17:42:53 <kmc> I either need a LOT of practice or some insight into what I'm doing wrong
17:42:53 <kmc> it's the same with makeup
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17:54:30 <arseniiv> how do you comprehend via visual means that Cauchy distribution has no mean?..
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17:57:01 <arseniiv> I come to think that’s not possible to achieve. If we use the law of big numbers, we need to get an impression about the convolution of 1 / (x² + 1) with itself. I don’t know how to do that via low-dimensional geometric intuition
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19:28:38 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81550&oldid=81284 * Heavpoot * (+401) Add esolangs discord (with blessing from owner this time!)
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20:01:03 <esowiki> [[Seed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81551&oldid=76706 * Not applicable * (-17) use interwiki link instead of external link
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20:11:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81552&oldid=54494 * Not applicable * (+333) Move implementations?
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22:06:09 <esowiki> [[DriftLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81553&oldid=81544 * Hakerh400 * (+2021) explain escaped types
22:09:03 <esowiki> [[DriftLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81554&oldid=81553 * Hakerh400 * (+1)
22:09:04 <esowiki> [[User talk:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81555&oldid=81306 * Heavpoot * (+121)
22:09:55 <nakilon> "how do I switch branches without updating the working directory "
22:10:03 <nakilon> I can't imagine why would you want this
22:10:13 <nakilon> but you could create a new branch from here
22:10:36 <nakilon> do stuff and then merge it to where you want
22:11:53 <esowiki> [[User talk:Truttle1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81556&oldid=75493 * Heavpoot * (+265)
22:16:39 <fizzie> I imagine that was switch as in to an already existing branch.
22:19:12 <int-e> yes it was
22:19:42 <int-e> it's a bit of an abuse of version control... the repo contents is actually a backup updated by rsync
22:20:02 <int-e> and I have some feature branches on top for actual development
22:20:29 <int-e> so this comes up when I accidentally sync while in a feature branch... I want to get back to the main branch without undoing the sync
22:21:30 <int-e> (in practice so far I've just resynced, it's not so bad)
22:38:18 <esowiki> [[DriftLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81557&oldid=81554 * Hakerh400 * (+323) add syntactic sugar and update hello-world example once again
22:39:55 <esowiki> [[DriftLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81558&oldid=81557 * Hakerh400 * (-102)
22:46:01 <zzo38> Some features of the Free Hero Mesh programming language are unusual, such as the gosub sigil (working like the GOSUB in BASIC, rather than like modern programming languages, and with a sigil; I don't know if Perl has something like this?), the mixture of S-expression-like syntax with RPN (WebAssembly also has this), the "chain" instruction, the way that arrays are working, etc.
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23:00:49 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81559&oldid=78453 * Zzo38 * (+78)
23:02:11 <zzo38> The "Prehistory of esoteric programming languages" article mentions EXPLOR and BEFLIX. Do you have any documentation of those programming languages?
23:10:10 <zzo38> O, there is an extension in Perl to use GOSUB like in BASIC (although it does not have its own sigil).
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23:23:24 <ArthurStrong> Oh, BTW. John Nash's bio states it has written computers programs. But I couldn't google them. Anyone heard/seen?
23:23:44 <ArthurStrong> That bio, of course https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Beautiful_Mind_(book)
23:26:01 <ArthurStrong> https://books.google.com.ua/books?id=uNPOmXAj1ScC&printsec=frontcover&dq=A+Beautiful+Mind&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiloYDZy8zvAhXSHXcKHVEzCP8Q6AEwAHoECAYQAg#v=onepage&q=computer%20programs&f=false
23:27:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81560&oldid=81552 * Zzo38 * (+253) INTERCAL and TECO
23:30:01 <nakilon> git is something you quickly forget when you don't use it much
23:31:13 <nakilon> usually at the office I'm building CI so git is something that others are asking me about
23:31:42 <fizzie> Sort of on that note (Nash, not git), UK just published the final design of the new £50 note that features Turing, https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/news/2021/march/the-new-50-note-unveiled
23:31:42 <nakilon> now when I didn't work for a while the commands are forgotten ..D
23:32:04 <zzo38> I don't use git, because I prefer fossil. (Although, I do not use all of the features of fossil, anyways.)
23:32:31 <nakilon> I still remember only the main principles such as the merging should be only one-direcitonal
23:32:32 <zzo38> I don't know about what you say about John Nash. I have not heard/seen either
23:32:58 <nakilon> and that there should be only one machine that merges to a specific branch
23:33:19 <ArthurStrong> zzo38: that's a shame. It's like hidden offline somewhere, if it's still...
23:34:06 <ArthurStrong> zzo38: any reason using fossil instead of something more popular?
23:34:47 <int-e> well there's git the tool... and then there's workflows that keep people sane while they use it.
23:34:49 <nakilon> also do merge commits
23:34:56 <nakilon> and never squash after pushing
23:35:10 <nakilon> (better not squash at all)
23:35:21 <int-e> my question was firmly aimed at the former... the workflow (if you can call it that) that motivated it is not exactly sane.
23:36:20 <int-e> which is okay only because this is not a collaboration with anybody
23:36:52 <nakilon> I used SVN for backuping
23:37:51 <b_jonas> "<nakilon> git is something you quickly forget when you don't use it much" => also it's changing. there's now a git switch command. I had a git switch alias in my config. I had to rename it now.
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23:38:56 <b_jonas> I would just use the command instead of the alias, but it doesn't have a -b option to create a branch, so it doesn't really replace my alias.
23:39:01 <fizzie> I've got one of those weirdo workflows too, for the repo where I keep all edited config files for the systems I'm responsible for in.
23:39:07 <b_jonas> (the alias is just to checkout with a -- after the branch name)
23:39:15 <fizzie> It's got a "dist" branch (checked out into a separate worktree) that contains the completely untouched config files as installed by the packages, and then a different branch which is where all the live versions live (together with the machinery to deploy changes). Whenever there's an upgrade that changes one of the edited files, I copy the new dist files into the dist branch, and then do a merge commit
23:39:21 <fizzie> from the dist branch into the live one. That way "trivial" changes (like, changes to comments or default settings I haven't changed or whatnot) need no manual work.
23:39:24 <b_jonas> fizzie: that doesn't sound likea weirdo workflow
23:39:40 <nakilon> b_jonas I read the docs but can't understand what does it do
23:39:55 <nakilon> is it like checkout + pull?
23:40:31 <fizzie> Maybe it's not that weird, I don't know. I guess if you think of the dist branch as like an "upstream", and think of the other as keeping a long-lived downstream customization branch, it starts to resemble a regular software development flow more.
23:40:36 <nakilon> # Optionally a new branch could be created with either -c, -C
23:40:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81561&oldid=81560 * Zzo38 * (+190)
23:41:06 <nakilon> (lambdabot should learn some another command prefix because people are used to use > for quoting)
23:41:11 <int-e> nakilon: it's painful that it's -c and not -b
23:41:15 <fizzie> I suspect I wouldn't have bothered with the whole thing if Debian's config file update process would learn about merging, but it doesn't. And I guess in the general case it might not have available the clean file from the previous version, maybe.
23:41:37 <nakilon> int-e git won't be git if it was obvious and non-painful
23:41:58 <b_jonas> nakilon: I don't think it pulls. it just switches the working copy to a different branch, merging the working copy changes with the differences between the currently checked out commit and what you're switching to.
23:41:59 <int-e> must be a different kind of git then
23:42:28 <int-e> I find mercurial painful... not conceptually but because the commands are all slightly wrong, coming from git :-P
23:42:36 <b_jonas> nakilon: ah, there's a -c switch. I might try to use it then, but I won't remember it. it's supposed to be -b . git checkout uses -b , and -c is used for something very different in git diff
23:43:17 <zzo38> ArthurStrong: I find fossil less confusing than git, mainly.
23:43:25 <b_jonas> sorry no, -c is used for something very different in git log
23:43:35 <nakilon> b_jonas oh is it like git stash git pull git stash apply?
23:43:42 <b_jonas> so I agree with int-e
23:44:00 <nakilon> idk why it was -b in the first place
23:44:01 <fizzie> int-e: I do Mercurial (of sorts) at work, and find much the same. Also, there's all kinds of "advanced" features (like the draft-vs.-public commit phases, and all the "evolve" stuff) that we make some use of, that I keep forgetting about.
23:44:14 <int-e> I'm slow to adapt, still using `checkout`
23:44:17 <b_jonas> nakilon: no, I think it's like (git checkout "$*" --) which is what my alias does, but I'm not sure, the command is new to me, I never used it, you'll have to ask someone who keeps u with git
23:44:44 <int-e> fizzie: do you also get upset about `hg grep`?
23:45:09 <b_jonas> I use mercurial for looking at hackenv history
23:45:13 <int-e> (I use `git grep` *a lot*. I have yet to find a use for `hg grep`)
23:45:21 <nakilon> search in changes? git still doesn't really have it
23:45:28 <fizzie> I do have to say the TUI interactive commit (`hg commit -i`) thing is kind of nice, compared to git's menu-driven patch/hunk/whatever thing.
23:45:37 <zzo38> (I also like the artifact format of Fossil)
23:45:45 <shachaf> fizzie: Mercurial at work?
23:45:59 <nakilon> I always thought git log -p | grep is what works until I discovered the case when it didn't show some commits and it was unknown why
23:46:26 <int-e> nakilon: I've never missed it. It's such a rare thing to want that I can git log --patch and grep that.
23:46:30 <ArthurStrong> zzo38: yeah, this is a real problem of git - its UI
23:46:40 * int-e shrugs
23:46:44 <int-e> ymmv
23:46:53 <nakilon> int-e --patch is the same as -p, isn't it? and it happened to not work
23:46:59 <b_jonas> ArthurStrong: it's not the only problem with git
23:47:12 <b_jonas> nakilon: try git log -p -c
23:47:12 <ArthurStrong> b_jonas: sure
23:47:19 <ArthurStrong> b_jonas: what another?
23:47:21 <fizzie> shachaf: Yeah.
23:47:22 <int-e> `git grep` tends to be much faster than grepping the checked out tree... and it ignores non-tracked files (like compilation artefacts) for free.
23:47:23 <HackEso> git: 'grep` tends to be much faster than grepping the checked out tree... and it ignores non-tracked files (like compilation artefacts) for free.' is not a git command. See 'git --help'.
23:47:24 <b_jonas> without -c it might not show stuff
23:47:27 <int-e> *that* is useful.
23:47:51 <b_jonas> ArthurStrong: I don't feel like ranting about it today. you might find my rants in the channel logs.
23:47:57 <int-e> HackEso: hah
23:48:00 <b_jonas> sorry
23:48:02 <ArthurStrong> b_jonas: OIC
23:48:09 <nakilon> ripgrep also ignores .gitignore
23:48:25 <nakilon> and can be forces to stop ignoring it by flag, env var or local or global config
23:48:48 <b_jonas> I've used both svn and git at work.
23:49:01 <int-e> nakilon: the thing is... these tools are highly polarizing. you get used to one of them, you're likely to dislike all others.
23:49:20 <int-e> it's almost as bad as with text editors.
23:49:22 <b_jonas> int-e: I dislike all of them, but I dislike subverions much less than the others
23:49:23 <nakilon> b_jonas thanks I will the next time
23:49:28 <shachaf> I'm used to git, and I also don't particularly like git.
23:49:31 <shachaf> Where does that put me?
23:49:32 <int-e> b_jonas: eww
23:49:48 <zzo38> There are some things I dislike about fossil, so I had started to write my own implementation, although I didn't write much of it yet. (Someone else has had a similar idea, too.)
23:49:56 <b_jonas> and of course I'm still hoping for ais523's vaporware version control system (scapegoat)
23:49:57 <shachaf> int-e: Subversion at least supports large files and large repositories, unlike git.
23:50:23 <nakilon> int-e grepping isn't something you "have to so often" and "you are disallowed to install the tool you need"
23:50:46 <fizzie> int-e: I think it's good that both HackEso and lambdabot have command prefixes that keep having false positives, then each can think "at least I'm not the only one".
23:50:48 <int-e> it's something I do often
23:50:51 * int-e shrugs
23:52:13 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah. I had a plan at some point to use longer IRC prefixes, specifically the triplets -0= =0- 0=- 0-= -=0 =-0 , and I might still use those if I ever make an IRC bot that needs a prefix
23:52:46 <b_jonas> also jevalbot has configuration options to (1) only accept the prefix if there's a space after it, which is useful because I used ] as the prefix and irc nicks can start with ] ,
23:53:10 <b_jonas> and (2) to ignore the short prefix on some channels, accepting only invocation by its nickname
23:53:12 <nakilon> ! is this prefix used?
23:53:20 <fizzie> ! is in reserve.
23:53:20 <b_jonas> `? prefixes
23:53:22 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =.
23:53:27 <b_jonas> ^prefixes
23:53:27 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
23:53:59 <b_jonas> but EgoBot has been almost certainly superceded by HackEgo
23:54:06 <int-e> Oh I've never realized that lambdabot's "> " is not listed there.
23:54:16 <b_jonas> > 1
23:54:18 <lambdabot> 1
23:54:23 <nakilon> cool, my client makes it visible which bots are missing from online
23:54:24 <b_jonas> heh indeed
23:54:27 <fizzie> Yeah, EgoBot is no more, but I've kind of been thinking about reusing it for esowiki once it *has* commands.
23:54:47 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/uTT6pYS.png
23:54:51 <b_jonas> fizzie: what? why would you add commands to esowiki instead of to HackEso?
23:55:12 <b_jonas> I mean HackEso already has a prefix
23:55:13 <int-e> :t id -- there's also this, but the : is not treated as a generic command prefix.
23:55:14 <lambdabot> a -> a
23:55:21 <fizzie> Because some things are just not feasible on HackEso.
23:55:53 <b_jonas> fizzie: you control it and you can add builtin commands to it, how can anything be not feasable in HackEso but feasable in esowiki?
23:56:13 <fizzie> They run on different systems.
23:56:18 <b_jonas> oh
23:56:24 <fizzie> Well, sort of, anyway.
23:56:25 <b_jonas> so that's why HackEso no longer has a copy of the logs
23:56:31 <fizzie> Yes.
23:57:29 <fizzie> Although that's something I was thinking of fixing by exposing the logs to it over a network API of some sort. Not that I've made any progress on that.
23:58:25 <shachaf> fizzie: Is that for a special project or a general thing?
23:59:07 <fizzie> Also they're not *that* different systems, one's just a namespace-based container on the other, so I imagine I could arrange for the files to be visible. But the logs are no longer text files either, so.
23:59:12 <nakilon> btw I don't see a Search button in logs
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