< 1616716808 304003 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: yes, and I think that's exactly the problem that fizzie wants to solve by commands in esowiki < 1616716819 463415 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: General thing. But with that "of sorts" qualifier. It's the thing that https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2016/7/204032-why-google-stores-billions-of-lines-of-code-in-a-single-repository/fulltext hints at (if you search for "Mercurial"). < 1616716828 39572 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :then have a look at https://github.com/whitequark/irclogger < 1616716833 54813 :ubq323!~ubq323@host86-155-175-238.range86-155.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.3 < 1616716844 606507 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting. < 1616716861 337327 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not interested in switching to a third-party system for the logs. < 1616716880 688355 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew Facebook was doing these things and I guess I heard vague rumors elsewhere. < 1616716903 929468 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure though why there is no Search field in the link that is in repo description but it's here for example https://freenode.irclog.whitequark.org/ruby/2021-03-26#; < 1616716958 778636 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: if you want to host a searcher, you can always download the logs from the server and make your own < 1616716982 193620 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the prefix can be e.g. "hajfbhalfjblajdfbot: " to publicly command hajfbhalfjblajdfbot, and to privately command a bot you can send a private message and no prefix is needed. < 1616717025 853078 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And, if a potential loop is detected, it should use a NOTICE command to respond, in order to break the loop.) < 1616717040 924365 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I assume that's just an example, and you're aware that Freenode's nick max length is 16 < 1616717058 162082 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Yes, it is just an example. < 1616717098 900110 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do wish more bots responded to their name too besides their short prefix, so you can more easily find out what their short invocation prefix is < 1616717101 706224 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you reminded me I wanted to make a service for Steam < 1616717102 19738 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot, help < 1616717105 712356 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :HackEso, help < 1616717114 687893 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1616717123 139369 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was writing a Z80 emulator bot at one point, and for that I was planning to use that schema (of just "nick[:,] " as a prefix for public messages, and nothing for private), but never got around doing that. < 1616717125 531586 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot does at least respond to its name < 1616717125 743228 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: send to someone else have already liked it, since our project is due to an another option will be faster., < 1616717134 439511 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: help! < 1616717134 618317 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: done with class me ladki ne bra me chupa liya. decimal inch of snow. enjoy ur crab was running abt getting food before u go in? i miss you < 1616717144 89538 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a very useful way, yes. < 1616717150 846397 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I think I didn't make termbot respond to its nick, so I'm guilty too < 1616717173 939223 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :jevalbot, help < 1616717185 452242 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-bot, help < 1616717191 373323 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-bot: help < 1616717191 601526 :j-bot!~jbot@hagall.firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: |value error: help < 1616717194 970867 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-bot, help: < 1616717211 652270 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it technically responds but not in a useful way that lets you discover anything < 1616717213 527069 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a char limit for nickname in Steam that is often exceeded when it's in Russian but I've managed to fir the nickname I needed by sqeezing the spaces, capitalizing the words and swapping the letters that look the same, and I noticed that usually it's too hard for people and they cut and ruin their initial ideas < 1616717249 222511 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: is it often exceeded in Russian because it's measured in utf-8 bytes? < 1616717271 798260 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you need information to discover, you could include it in the real name field maybe < 1616717276 344616 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :multibot's way of hooking up the scripts to respond to things is pretty weird. Like, the ` prefix for HackEso is set up by having a file called multibot_cmds/PRIVMSG/tr_60.cmd, because '`' is 0x60. < 1616717286 768772 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :*to fit the nickname < 1616717311 125741 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, yep, every russian char is twice large < 1616717398 544083 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :irb(main):003:0> 'ИисусХристосПорноЗвезда'.bytes.size < 1616717398 768514 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :=> 46 < 1616717398 768556 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :irb(main):004:0> 'ИиcycXpиcтocПopнo3вeздa'.bytes.size < 1616717398 768566 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :=> 32 < 1616717475 117250 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, mixing with latin < 1616717686 787761 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also sometimes I have a feeling like there are two interfaces for change the nickname in Steam one of which is cutting harder than another one < 1616718165 202067 :delta23!~deltaepsi@unaffiliated/deltaepsilon23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1616719731 925396 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :modern competitive programming fans are something < 1616719751 720071 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :all these people who put the words "dynamic programming" in every message < 1616719790 450444 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I shared the link https://blog.cryptohack.org/twitter-secrets and they decided it's spam since it's in English ) > 1616722372 46388 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Community portal14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81562&oldid=81550 5* 03Baidicoot 5* (+18) 10/* Others (Unofficial) */ < 1616723650 989398 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1616723758 260227 :delta23!~deltaepsi@unaffiliated/deltaepsilon23 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1616724155 973139 :arcsor5!~textual@104.206.206.147 QUIT :Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1616724395 415288 :hendursa1!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Quit: hendursa1 < 1616724412 295315 :arcsor5!~textual@104.206.206.147 JOIN :#esoteric < 1616724412 806449 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric < 1616724641 746199 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@178-133-29-236.mobile.vf-ua.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1616724937 664224 :zseri!~zseri@ip4d158239.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de QUIT :Quit: zseri < 1616725536 322780 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if median absolute difference between original histogram and histogram of gauss blurred (1) image in the saturation HSV band is somewhere between 0.18 and 0.4 < 1616725564 726009 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it's a nice looking high resolution image < 1616726773 776633 :arcsor5!~textual@104.206.206.147 PRIVMSG #esoteric :competitive programming fans on quora ask stupid questions like "is iq 145 too low for programming" and "is 20 years old too late to become good at competitive programming" > 1616727040 218433 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Zseri14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81563&oldid=53103 5* 03Zseri 5* (-18) 10 < 1616727164 178366 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@178-133-29-236.mobile.vf-ua.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1616727349 755822 :delta23!~deltaepsi@unaffiliated/deltaepsilon23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1616728299 676933 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :arcsor5 attention whoring? idk, I rarely hit quora but there is a subreddit that sounds like your quotes < 1616728331 893035 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.reddit.com/r/mensa/ < 1616728334 865174 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's such a cringe < 1616729486 976244 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1616730119 12043 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1616730724 94637 :arcsor5!~textual@104.206.206.147 QUIT :Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1616730930 614397 :arcsor5!~textual@104.206.206.147 JOIN :#esoteric < 1616731260 918886 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid JOIN :#esoteric < 1616731398 896935 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN :#esoteric < 1616731460 271423 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator JOIN :#esoteric < 1616733347 139134 :arcsor5!~textual@104.206.206.147 QUIT :Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1616734213 994074 :delta23!~deltaepsi@unaffiliated/deltaepsilon23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1616734864 911517 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1616734888 58595 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1616735104 148335 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid JOIN :#esoteric < 1616735112 116547 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN :#esoteric < 1616736233 539829 :nfd!~nfd9001@2601:602:77f:1820:144a:da71:587f:e0c7 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1616737310 84628 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@178-133-29-236.mobile.vf-ua.net QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1616737619 666396 :sprock!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds > 1616741119 163076 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Community portal14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81564&oldid=81562 5* 03Palaiologos 5* (-11) 10 > 1616742092 640212 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Community portal14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81565&oldid=81564 5* 03Palaiologos 5* (+94) 10 < 1616742349 727328 :mich181189!sid268336@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vsibzyolsowehner QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1616742372 270163 :ocharles!sid30093@musicbrainz/user/ocharles QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1616742374 352763 :glowcoil!sid3405@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xeuicresjnitdefg QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1616742378 84335 :mich181189!sid268336@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mgbpeejxnyhmkzjp JOIN :#esoteric < 1616742387 375330 :ocharles!sid30093@musicbrainz/user/ocharles JOIN :#esoteric < 1616742398 672375 :glowcoil!sid3405@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kqfefvcmbgehneab JOIN :#esoteric > 1616742838 995285 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Community portal14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81566&oldid=81565 5* 03Citrons 5* (+0) 10s/below/above > 1616743888 720924 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Community portal14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81567&oldid=81566 5* 03LyricLy 5* (-2) 10Fix wording < 1616744120 91284 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98aa4.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1616745572 199206 :adminn!~admin@unaffiliated/zeroed NICK :zeroed < 1616746028 722684 :hendursa1!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric < 1616746197 746160 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1616747218 990542 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1616747239 443404 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : i should be able to run any program with --dump-source and get all the source code straight out of the binary ← I wrote the Windows installer component of aimake (used by, e.g., NetHack4) to be a quine in that sense < 1616747249 15869 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can install the source code for both the program it's installing, and the installer itself < 1616747262 137215 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it isn't a proper quine, it just reads its own source from disk while preparing the installer < 1616747809 926549 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1616747822 882027 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1616747830 365920 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Sort of on that note (Nash, not git), UK just published the final design of the new £50 note that features Turing ← I'm not sure why we still even have £50 notes, if you withdraw a large amount of money from the bank it usually comes as £20s < 1616747889 545540 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I've been present for bank transfers that were implemented using the old-fashioned method of asking for a large amount of physical cash from one bank and taking it to a different bank in person; this may still be the fastest method, although it's somewhat vulnerable to thieves and I wouldn't do it myself) < 1616748036 445647 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, do we really need [[Category:Stupid family]]? < 1616748071 185409 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have half a mind to just speedy it as "unapproved category", but there's no real urgency and it's probably worth discussing over IRC first < 1616748107 677517 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I get cash I choose the largest banknote and it's 5000 RUR that is around 60 ƒ I guess < 1616748130 451176 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :though not everyone has a change for it, yeah < 1616748148 488331 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but fastfood always have a change < 1616748157 47348 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like 100 RUR has a very similar value to £1 (marginally higher) < 1616748181 460721 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a 5000 RUR note is a close equivalent to a £50 note < 1616748210 306589 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i assume it's from the same guy who made the only 2 entries? < 1616748212 872043 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :many shops here don't accept £50 notes, though, there's a perception that £50 notes are only used by criminals, which means that most non-criminals choose not to use them < 1616748223 989193 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: yes < 1616748232 956599 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are 5 RUR banknotes in theory https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%BB%D1%8C#%D0%91%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%82%D1%8B < 1616748250 902425 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't even know if the languages in particular are that special < 1616748252 25756 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in practice you'll find only 50 RUR because lower is replaced by coins < 1616748270 443499 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, why is stupidbasic stupid? it's just a basic dialect < 1616748273 290189 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the UK, the largest commonly used coin is £2 and smallest banknote is £5 < 1616748287 100223 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there's no overlap < 1616748304 196130 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: here, shops have to accept every note if it's within reasonable margin of purchase < 1616748314 698459 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(technically £5 coins exist, but they're basically just novelties to celebrate special occasions, despite technically being real coins) < 1616748341 642016 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, if you purchase something for 5€, the shop _has_ to accept a 50€ note < 1616748347 222068 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"there's a perception that £50 notes are only used by criminals" -- the way you non-verbally behave makes a great difference in how more likely you'll be considered a criminal < 1616748366 771833 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the rules here are complex, you have to accept any note to cover a debt, but if you haven't agreed to a sale yet, you can put more or less whatever requirements you like on what currency you'll accept in exchange < 1616748378 91541 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also maybe I'm a criminal?) < 1616748410 480095 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also, regarding the category, i like how it has exactly 2 entries and the description is "some languages don't share some of the aspects" < 1616748410 964380 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although the credit card companies generally require the businesses they deal with to agree not to discriminate against credit card users, as part of their license to be able to accept credit cards) < 1616748435 583592 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: I noted that, it's likeable in an amusement sense but dislikeable in the being-a-reasonable-category sense < 1616748444 411212 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1616748579 864219 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you type £ ? < 1616748605 676429 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a UK keyboard, shift-3 < 1616748615 649332 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a pretty common character over here so we have an easy shortcut for it < 1616748628 146408 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :€ is altgr-4 because all the reasonable shift-combinations were already taken < 1616748632 142741 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I'm using US layout I guess < 1616748634 733216 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the time the euro was invented < 1616748650 431642 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf is altgr? < 1616748662 875152 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's between space and right ctrl, replacing the right alt < 1616748663 412600 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the right alt key < 1616748667 372709 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you don't normally need two alt keys < 1616748685 196001 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh £ is opt-3 on my layout < 1616748697 194737 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :here, on altgr + numbers, i have ¹²³¼½¬{[]}\ < 1616748714 227700 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on Windows it appears to be equivalent to ctrl-alt in nearly all contexts; on X11 it gives access to a huge range of special characters < 1616748719 483215 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also being the main reason people hate that layput for programming < 1616748764 64817 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shift -- !@#$%^&*()_+ ;alt -- ¡™£¢∞§¶•ªº–≠ ;alt+shift -- ⁄€‹›fifl‡°·‚—± < 1616748767 28789 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oddly, Windows appears to have placed é on ctrl-alt-e / altgr-e on UK keyboards at some point, and some keyboards will even have an é on the bottom-right of the E key to illustrate that < 1616748772 270847 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(have fun whoever parses this day log) < 1616748799 206774 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :TIL I even have Euro sign < 1616748830 321476 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the swiss keyboard is weird. it's the only one i know where caps lock + shift + letter does not necessarily equal to the letter without modifiers < 1616748846 854218 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: oddly, I have {[]} on altgr-7890 despite the fact that I also have physical [ and ] keys (which are shiftable into { and }) < 1616748860 463849 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess using Alt on Windows is something new at all < 1616748879 301682 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :UK keyboards actually have one more physical key than US keyboards do, between ' and Return < 1616748891 492937 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it produces # unshifted and ~ shifted < 1616748895 679094 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where is ~ on a US keyboard?) < 1616748896 159175 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, caps lock + a is ä, caps lock + shift + a is Ä instead of a < 1616748921 200328 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: on Windows (also most Linux programs) Alt is used for keyboard navigation of GUI programs < 1616748923 877260 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :\|«|» -- this is the key between ' and Enter for me < 1616748940 993156 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there used to be underlined letters all over the interface (although nowadays the underlines normally only become visible if you hold Alt) < 1616748955 115968 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :holding alt and pressing an underlined letter is equivalent to clicking on the letter, or whatever it labels < 1616748961 483001 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :back in the days < 1616748970 751409 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 yep, that's why I was surprised to hear about ctrl+alt+e < 1616748977 471138 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now i use alt to switch between irc channels, like god intended it < 1616748985 158471 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: that still works with the *left* alt key < 1616749035 983991 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname btw I changed Capslock to switch ENG/RUS < 1616749045 29577 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I rebound caps lock to compose < 1616749051 131892 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i changes capslock to a global push to talk < 1616749071 761368 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still have a caps lock (which is useful on occasion), but it really doesn't deserve a single key of its own so I put it on shift-shift < 1616749074 806891 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :capslock is my Jump in games < 1616749090 320262 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: not very intellij friendly < 1616749105 128728 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does intellij use caps lock for? < 1616749115 591993 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses shift-shift < 1616749121 233702 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I see < 1616749124 15147 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it use that for? < 1616749142 133208 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :an "open file" window < 1616749143 196989 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :clear RAM and stop lagging for a minute? < 1616749156 906421 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a bizarre binding < 1616749161 602139 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd normally expect that to be on Ctrl-something < 1616749167 428719 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or Command-something on a Mac) < 1616749171 586403 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: no, that's alt+f4 < 1616749192 252155 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in most programs, alt-f4 causes additional lag, rather than removing it < 1616749198 607430 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i find it pretty reasonable, because it's something you are going to use very often < 1616749204 480207 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this may be a consequence of them doing something like trying to recurse over all memory to free it < 1616749217 319224 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: I find shift-shift fairly hard to press, compared to ctrl-letter < 1616749240 19161 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :he must have big hands < 1616749241 667656 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how so? ctrl is lower than shift and you have to reach the other key < 1616749242 215509 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, is this a window that lists open files, or a window that opens files? < 1616749253 795536 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it opens them < 1616749274 185098 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I move my hands quite a lot when typing, they move onto each other's halves of the keyboard frequently < 1616749287 249455 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shift-shift forces me to move them much further apart than I'd normally have them, making it slower to type < 1616749292 575784 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the O letter isn't far from right Ctrl < 1616749308 343476 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what kind of maniac uses right ctrl? < 1616749316 806432 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. in the word "type", I type the "y" with my left hand because the right hand is covering "p" which is at the far end of the keyboard, that means my left hand is nowhere near left shift < 1616749325 465751 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :idk, I don't open files on Windows at all < 1616749335 752865 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean I use only mouse there < 1616749371 147522 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when using an IDE, typically I have a tree view of all the files in the source directory in a corner of the screen somewhere, and use a mouse to open files by clicking on that < 1616749402 844736 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even more commonly, use implicit open via search, "go to definition", etc. < 1616749417 669533 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would mean i know where every file is < 1616749426 8567 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and on Macbook any Cmd+ combinations are handy because the Cmd is on both sides of Space so you press it with the 1st finger, not 5th < 1616749430 452394 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I usually do, even at work < 1616749449 223323 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the project is far to big for that < 1616749465 642965 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I'm using Emacs, I will usually try to have all the files open simultaneously and just use C-x C-b to switch between them, or search < 1616749474 847283 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also on macOS I don't really close files -- I keep them all opened forever < 1616749478 589569 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it sounds like myname's projects would be too big for that, too < 1616749485 385142 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it reduces the amount of openings too < 1616749516 848654 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :generally speaking, though, I like project structures which don't have many levels of hierarchy, just a few main directories and lots of files in each < 1616749522 787981 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there aren't many places I'd have to look for any given file < 1616749564 340693 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :opening a couple thousand files at once sounds like a bad ide < 1616749608 558403 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh btw, while on Windows you may open the modal file browsing dialog and click with your mouse on macOS you press Ctrl+Cmd+G in that dialog and it opens the small submodal window with a single field to chose the path by typing with autocomplete just like in Terminal < 1616749631 320655 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I almost never click in the file browsing dialogs < 1616749659 699255 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I mean, I navigate to the folder with that submodal and then click < 1616749703 365303 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be cool if they also add the ability to chose the file in that submodal to make it even more handy < 1616749794 909008 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname I don't edit thousands of files; if I only need to read them I read them in terminal, not IDE < 1616749821 103398 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds like a weird way of programming < 1616749847 784519 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :reading isn't programming < 1616749874 800375 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I have terminal and ide opened the same amount of time because two displays < 1616749897 190020 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have terminals open way more < 1616749909 545583 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would i irc otherwise < 1616750199 246652 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, generally speaking it makes sense to have all the text/source files in the project you're working on in memory simultaneously < 1616750217 581831 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a) text files generally aren't that large, so there's room, b) grepping an entire project is a common operation < 1616750235 225225 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but you usually don't know which files you are going to work on < 1616750252 3977 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and c) if you load a file into memory, modern OSes will treat the file itself as swap backing the memory, so there's no actual cost in terms of how much else you can fit into memory < 1616750288 964164 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm… do you think the source code for Windows, minus any binaries / assets / large data files / images / resources etc., comes to more or less than 1GB? < 1616750293 97592 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd guess less, but I'm not sure < 1616750365 861844 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :grepping 1GB of data that's already in memory shouldn't take that long on a modern computer < 1616750478 184878 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm… I wonder whether nontemporal reads would make a significant improvement for that sort of workflow? < 1616750566 38021 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 JOIN :#esoteric < 1616750603 22395 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried to force myself to use the "Projects" in Sublime Text that is kind of opening a new window per project with its folder tree opened on the left < 1616750618 863603 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :modern processors are so fast that most algorithms are bottlenecked on either memory write or memory read, so explicit cache control hints can cause noticeable improvements < 1616750660 453042 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but: 1) if there is a folder in it with thousands of asset files it wastes time on rereading the file tree 2) it's harder to navigate between multiple windows rather than one opened all the time < 1616750731 904636 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I guess you can blacklist the subfolder in the Project settings but that's a new config file < 1616750802 457364 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :asset files are such an issue for everything programming-related :-( < 1616750824 562785 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that greatly depends on the storage complexity of the algorithm < 1616750825 988124 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the best solution I know is to have them in a different tree from the source (e.g. assets/ and src/ as subdirectories of your main project directory) < 1616750854 246679 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: of course, but what I'm mostly focused on is making the linear-time algorithms faster < 1616750872 159413 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been spending weeks looking at low-level processor performance in order to write the world's fastest FizzBuzz < 1616750883 770939 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think I know how to do it, now, just can't be motivated to actually sit down and write the program < 1616750943 835336 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the basic idea is to have a small bytecode program in L1 cache, where each byte of program generates a byte of output, and where a full loop of the program generates 2400 lines of output < 1616750947 236522 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, lol, i think i made the world's fastest fizzbuzz for the codegolf challenge < 1616750954 436220 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, was that you? < 1616750957 458702 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1616750963 773353 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had the idea a while ago, forgot about it, then saw it on codegolf and got obsessed < 1616750977 786147 :LKoen!~LKoen@191.254.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1616750978 676651 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/215236/61379 < 1616750992 246330 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the answers there seem to use write(2) for output at the moment, which inherently bottlenecks you to a fairly low speed < 1616751011 763505 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what should we use instead? < 1616751035 250119 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it forces a memcpy of your data inside the kernel, which a) doubles your cache pressure and b) the copy loop itself is slow beacuse you can fizzbuzz as fast as a memcpy < 1616751046 986861 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been looking into using vmsplice(2) but it's much harder to set up < 1616751054 774924 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, i'm aware of that. i thought that we could probably make this thing bootable < 1616751059 192704 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea is to make sure that the data never leaves the L2 cache < 1616751060 97566 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and send the fizzbuzz thingy via serial < 1616751076 866468 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oddly, that could actually be *faster* because you could make sure that the data never left the L*1* cache < 1616751083 79087 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :codegolf.stackexchange.com is such a toxic place < 1616751108 449164 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason the L2 cache needs to get involved in the first place is that kernel overhead is too high if you're just sending an L1-cache's worth of data with every system call < 1616751137 161980 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hey, using vmsplice would be really smart < 1616751148 904268 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they were copying the puzzles from another website that had a rule "don't solve it publicly/collectively, don't share solutions" -- I mentioned it and they just started insulting me for that < 1616751153 314765 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: how so? I really dislike Stack Exchange itself (the general attitude of the admin, and the software running it), but I've never had a problem with CGCC's community as people even if I disagree with many of their rules < 1616751164 656777 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon, link please? < 1616751173 649876 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: the trick is to make sure that you don't touch the page containing the written data until after it's already been read, otherwise you trigger a copy-on-write page fault < 1616751182 820748 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I posted my 99 bottles solution that was the shortest among them but I censored it partially -- they deleted my submission, lol < 1616751196 245631 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, fair point < 1616751201 164631 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos that was like 6 years ago < 1616751214 819378 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :when it was in beta < 1616751222 869318 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon, i can assure you that the community has changed a lot during these 6 years, most of the old regulars are gone now and the community is fairly fresh < 1616751237 494949 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, vmsplice is faster the simpler the page table is (it does a pagewalk), which means you ideally want to be using hugepages, and that makes it even harder to not touch the page containing the written data < 1616751240 93616 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a bit of a shame, because i liked some of the old regulars, but i guess that it is how it is. < 1616751244 443387 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the stage when it's a phase of discussing the rules of the site, but they didn't want to discuss, they wanted to have fun only, kids < 1616751257 283182 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stack Exchange admin drove most of the better golfers away from the site, I think < 1616751297 385609 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a partially censored solution would, I think, get deleted because it isn't a correct soultion < 1616751314 905772 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :problems copied from elsewhere would normally be copyright violations, though, and should be deleted because of that < 1616751321 82993 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the correct solutions didn't have to exist there in the first place < 1616751321 295528 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :] < 1616751331 865687 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the website where they took the puzzle from is prohibiting it < 1616751338 864244 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just disrespectful < 1616751346 581133 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you shouldn't have posted anything then, and flagged the post to a moderator. < 1616751361 476032 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I did and I got insults for that < 1616751365 26494 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in meta, etc. < 1616751366 750360 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for _flagging_? < 1616751369 286314 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1616751383 401700 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :on SO I even get bans for flagging < 1616751384 648437 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, this drama is 6 year old now, scratching the wound won't help probably < 1616751387 460418 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :week long bans, lol < 1616751393 201182 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :6 years ago is 2015, that would predate most of the current mods and most of the mods before then < 1616751395 304557 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes, if you flag content that doesn't break the rules. < 1616751405 678387 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, that's why I don't visit that toxic place for years < 1616751409 893353 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually that might predate the first mod election? < 1616751416 568276 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's hard to believe, but people sometimes change < 1616751429 793836 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i respect your stance, but it's nice to give people another go < 1616751429 900340 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :codegolf on SE has died for me when it was prohibited on SO < 1616751446 995887 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :codegolf is mildly recreational so it doesn't fit SO all that well < 1616751451 299494 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I think a golf website could only reasonably have the rules of "please don't discuss these problems/solutions elsewhere" if the problems are fairly unique/unusual < 1616751466 315159 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise they'd be likely to be recreated by chance < 1616751469 894957 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know whether or not that was the case here < 1616751500 703103 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: fwiw, the SE *software* is so bad for a codegolf site that it's a good reason to not go there even if/when there's nothing wrong with the community < 1616751527 674327 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm protesting against it by intentionally avoiding reputation, locking my account to 11 reputation permanently < 1616751541 242626 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the incentives for reputation go against what good golfing is < 1616751584 856697 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :did they even realise finally that half of the problems they are posting isn't codegolf? I mean those problems that have the shortest solution as "for (;;) { if test( rand() ) break }" < 1616751614 867832 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would seem unlikely to be the shortest solution to something < 1616751618 432087 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you have an example? < 1616751657 784687 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, sometimes people count tokens < 1616751661 131110 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tersest solution to a problem is often very inefficient because "generate all possible answers then test to see if the answer is correct" is often shorter to express than actually trying to solve the problem efficiently < 1616751679 297347 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's not quite the same < 1616751679 444034 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how do you achieve locking yourself at 11rep < 1616751685 740094 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :was years ago too; the point is that the problem does not fit the codegolf if it can be solved in just an hour of generating random solutions in a loop < 1616751691 467674 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: never post questions + community-wiki every answer < 1616751704 591237 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, makes sense < 1616751722 792369 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: there's a whole genre of esolangs that boils relevant keywords down to single bytes, that's pretty much replaced token-counting < 1616751744 308992 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the hard part is trying to get the number of bytes for the plumbing down, too, things like parentheses and variable names can be very costly at that sort of scale < 1616751746 474226 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon, that's because of the golfing languages which i (and lots of other people) dislike < 1616751757 102547 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i never upvote submissions made with golflangs < 1616751779 586549 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually think golfing languages tell you more about programming and communication than regular languages < 1616751786 273464 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that thing was making me leave too < 1616751812 788780 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a) they tend to have relevant concepts as built-ins in the languages rather than needing you to write them out every time or use a library, meaning there's less busywork/copy-and-paste > 1616751827 123918 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Palaiologos14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81568&oldid=79799 5* 03Palaiologos 5* (-86) 10deadlink removal < 1616751829 704874 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b) they try to strip communication down to its essentials, trying to capture the essence of just what it means to describe a problem < 1616751838 210993 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl, python, ruby, haskell, J, K -- it wasn't enough for them, they made the stupid golfscript, that is kind of the same as HQ9++ < 1616751857 598073 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, HQ9++ is generally disliked, and golfscript is actually very verbose as golfing languages go < 1616751874 478514 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the field of developing golflangs is interesting < 1616751875 574544 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :golfscript didn't even have a standard < 1616751878 491619 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the field of using them is boring as heck < 1616751887 253041 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :some guy just made it up and was editing it every day, lol < 1616751901 85229 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: your opinion is close to mine on this < 1616751920 336250 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i even myself wanted to make an ultimate golflang which in the end failed because it required too much effort :P < 1616751948 559955 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, coming up with the right set of builtins and syntax is hard, because for example your usual stack-based code probably isn't _the_ smallest as it gets < 1616751948 945507 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, the way I see it, sometimes the interest is in developing the tersest algorithm, and seeing how hard it is to express the algorithm in a golfing language is a good way to define how complex the algorithm is < 1616751968 245875 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: I've actually been working on one in parallel with this conversation < 1616751981 255777 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but some people on CGCC literally admitted to run a bruteforcing tool to find solutions to problems. < 1616751995 935341 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've done that too, but only in very low-level esolangs < 1616752004 560954 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example :')? < 1616752014 306292 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a brute-forcer Brain-Flak < 1616752016 124270 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, when I was saying about finding the solution in a loop I didn't mean they generate the code in a loop < 1616752017 443759 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did an elaborate bruteforce for Malbolge, and probably nothing else. < 1616752017 865178 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :* for Brain-Flak < 1616752032 580541 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that solves problems like "given x above y on the stack, find code that replaces them with y above x+y" < 1616752034 757377 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the code they submit is a loop that generates the STDOUT solutions to STDIN < 1616752062 233003 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: there used to be a lot of cheating by not actually answering the problem in the past, but that's mostly been banned nowadays < 1616752063 20169 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, codegolf is really specific and somewhat unfair, yeah, that's why each language has it's own leaderboard < 1616752070 350093 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main cheating that happens nowadays is in I/O conventions < 1616752075 1871 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ye[ < 1616752078 249337 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*yes < 1616752091 83680 :LKoen!~LKoen@191.254.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1616752108 380483 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd imagine brute force to be fair game. < 1616752144 908213 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a whole challenge can be solved by brute force alone then it's too simple. < 1616752153 270060 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually think that the fact that brute force algos (i.e. brute force at runtime, not compile time) are often terser than more efficient algorithms is an indictment of compilers being bad at optimizing < 1616752169 575934 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you can just make a universal "solver" for every codegolf in the world in this way < 1616752175 674763 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that kind of brute force < 1616752176 577839 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :very few challenges are simple enough to be solved by brute-forcing all posisble programs until you find one that works, even intelligently < 1616752208 464737 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for (;;) { string = rand_string(); break if md5(string) == "83yn8237hr8374hr" } < 1616752216 426482 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once submitted an O(2^n) time sorting algorithm (O(2^n/n) average time if my analysis back then was correct) to a golfing competition and got away with it. < 1616752217 108600 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :just change the hash for every puzzle < 1616752217 895173 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: that doesn't work < 1616752219 324813 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's stupid < 1616752240 432821 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if your program is longer than 16 bytes or so, the brute-forcer will almost certainly find a second preimage before it finds the actual program you wanted < 1616752249 658284 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 that's how they solve 99-bottles-like puzzles > 1616752252 612750 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Zirconium14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81569&oldid=81513 5* 03Strohtaler 5* (+291) 10/* Example: Fibonacci stopping after number count */ new section < 1616752262 357575 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: that *doesn't work* in that it will *produce the wrong answer* < 1616752305 695883 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hash collisions are a thing, e.g. SHA-256 has a 1 in 2²⁵⁶ chance of any random string happening to collide with the hash you give < 1616752312 264002 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 do you mean the md5 collision? that's not the point, that's the principle -- make a regex instead of md5, whatever < 1616752312 583064 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( head -n NNN /dev/urandom ) < 1616752327 706389 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the actual desired output will take way more than 2²⁵⁶ trials on average to find < 1616752334 891749 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1616752343 289400 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, it will almost certainly find a second preimage before it finds the answer you want < 1616752349 29187 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they were submitting the solutions that work for a week to find it < 1616752354 442705 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somehow I'm reminded of http://golf.shinh.org/setpid.html < 1616752364 562115 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if someone submitted that as an answer to the 99bob problem then it would get deleted due to being incorrect < 1616752377 664750 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the length of time it takes to produce the wrong answer is way more than weeks, but irrelevant) < 1616752410 219679 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they didn't delete, they insulted me for that < 1616752425 271647 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt that would happen nowadays, with people having a better understanding of golfing < 1616752448 996184 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: anagol eventually found a better fix for that, the recheck button < 1616752463 91415 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which runs the program again and disqualifies the submission if it produces the wrong answer < 1616752464 835041 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, that's cute < 1616752478 976119 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, programs that only sometimes print the correct answer are no longer allowed < 1616752494 596939 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't believe in places becoming better while the number of people in it increases, it's always the opposite < 1616752497 438787 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anagol isn't the only golfing site that was susceptible to this, incidentally, similar tricks have been used elsewhere < 1616752500 551464 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though a bit sad in the case of language changes < 1616752509 75059 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: but the number of people has decreased on CGCC < 1616752521 464160 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(does it keep a record of the disqualified solutions?) < 1616752527 244105 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1616752527 562843 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure of the details < 1616752564 162218 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean it's one thing to have a program produce random output < 1616752703 788917 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and another to have a program that relied on an older version of the language in question (I'm aware of this for Haskell, which removed n+k-patterns...) < 1616752749 926710 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on CGCC, programs that only work in old interpreters are generally considered to be in a different language from programs that work in newer interpreters too < 1616752772 492355 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even 5 years ago, lol < 1616752785 448371 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :all my currently existing 4 answers are Jan 28 '11 < 1616752802 548157 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :time is fast... < 1616752811 351600 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know I've submitted a CGCC answer which only worked in one specific old version of Java (IIRC 1.4) < 1616752823 471609 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: oh, the site was a complete joke in 2011, I can see why you were driven away > 1616753069 27678 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Zirconium14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81570&oldid=81569 5* 03Strohtaler 5* (+250) 10/* Example: Fibonacci stopping after number count */ < 1616753508 717444 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did haskell remove n+k patterns? < 1616753633 883179 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well they were odd, potentially confusing... they needed both arithmetic and a comparison to be implemented < 1616753657 539305 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in contrast to the plain numeric patterns, they were not all that common or useful. < 1616753740 455486 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but all in all... no strong reasons, just an opinionated decision by the people writing the Haskell 2010 standard document < 1616753761 586388 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ghc still supports them as a language extension anyway < 1616753777 25172 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :n+k seems more like an agda feature than a haskell feature < 1616753793 146927 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i was learning haskell i was wondering why n+k isn't a thing too < 1616753801 758941 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seemed kinda handy to me < 1616753806 332122 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because agda is implemented as-if it uses peano arithmetic and n+k patterns are genuine pattern matches there < 1616753837 96981 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@where pi_10 < 1616753837 311172 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :(!!3)<$>transpose[show$foldr(\k a->2*10^2^n+a*k`div`(2*k+1))0[1..2^n]|n<-[0..]] < 1616753841 54871 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@where e_10 < 1616753841 381138 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :[show(sum$scanl div(100^n)[1..[4..]!!n])!!n|n<-[0..]] < 1616753848 644954 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, pi_10 is longer than I remember. < 1616753851 50338 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, having both a comparison (the 'n' has to be nonnegative) and arithmetic in one place is what made them occasionally useful for golfing. < 1616753900 74237 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a slightly shorter variant of one of those that took way longer to evaluate than lambdabot allows. < 1616753933 167353 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but adding {-#LANGUAGE NPlusKPatterns#-} will generally not pay off :-) < 1616754006 245516 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many "golfing" competitions are there where the program size is fixed, and the goal is to find the best solution within that size? < 1616754024 170051 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :define best? < 1616754026 200872 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only know of one that was run that way, and it was barely code golf, really. < 1616754043 443403 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Best defined by the problem. < 1616754068 784708 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking of http://djm.cc/bignum-results.txt < 1616754089 606806 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I guess the C++ error explosion competition was sort of like this too in a sense. < 1616754124 8301 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you see them on CGCC occasionally, normally in challenges which are directly or indirectly bignum-related < 1616754139 741205 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf PI is always longer than you remember ..D < 1616754196 882867 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf also there are contests for finding the best solution with fixed time limit < 1616754385 192554 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this https://www.codingame.com/multiplayer/optimization < 1616754500 935824 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, here your Mars lander has to use as low amount of fuel as possible https://www.codingame.com/multiplayer/optimization/mars-lander < 1616754516 543932 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also engines will stop when depleted > 1616754849 429649 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Zirconium14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81571&oldid=81570 5* 03Strohtaler 5* (+9) 10/* Question / Understanding */ < 1616755365 829019 :LKoen!~LKoen@191.254.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1616755977 198697 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.226.89.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1616758545 437090 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I saw a "speed golf" thing (find the 'fastest' way of doing something) somewhere too, but can't recall the details, or where. < 1616758860 823287 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd need a well-defined time measure < 1616758920 539276 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :language discrimination ( < 1616759023 581745 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually on codingame you have to use some C anyway to get to the very top of A.I. contests < 1616759052 393995 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they traverse deep into the tree < 1616759136 118198 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1616759182 763849 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :We had a (playful) competition of sorts for a university course once that I was helping to run, initially with Scheme (using SICP's metacircular evaluator as the time measurement) but later on the JVM (with a bit fuzzier process-time-based time limits), on who writes the best "AI" for a specific (non-standard) board game. < 1616759227 69783 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :We had one of those at uni, too, in Python < 1616759243 901784 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was a variant of battleships with pieces which weren't straight lines < 1616759298 835042 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1616759299 713040 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sometimes think about such thing when imagining an AI contest -- it should be some unique language with your own VM that sums the weights of the commands executed < 1616759300 286868 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :This was vaguely chess-like, but with an interesting two-step non-local capture mechanism (you "target" a piece first, and then capture on the next turn if the criteria for capturing are still fulfilled). < 1616759345 775481 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did the same sort of results visualizations (and a web game viewer) that we've done with bf joust, I wonder if those pages are still up somewhere. < 1616759360 323026 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1616759372 440399 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Probably not, it's been quite long. Then again, university people aren't that keen on cleaning up web servers.) < 1616759426 26733 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1616759506 866597 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION sighs
< 1616759533 501207 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1616759541 184293 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah, the university wiki page that explains how to use the framework is at least still up. But it doesn't have a link to the results pages. https://wiki.aalto.fi/display/T934400/Guide < 1616759551 204222 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :these things we talk about now are by magnitudes more complex than what all my coding friends (not even mentioning offline friends) could even understand < 1616759551 779075 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the link to the game's page is just a 404 now. < 1616759630 565747 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, there's spam in the comments, as with any unmaintained wiki with a commenting facility. :) < 1616760066 48355 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah! My personal user account web directory's still around. That's ridiculous, but maybe shouldn't be surprising. < 1616760069 672787 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, Atlassian instance with free registration? < 1616760070 855054 :LKoen!~LKoen@191.254.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1616760147 95999 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, no idea... I imagine they needed separate accounts for some use cases (non-student collaborators or whatnot), but a bit surprising that they didn't just create accounts separately for that. < 1616760185 935758 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Maybe it actually requires manual review for account creation, otherwise you'd think there'd be more spam.) < 1616760328 291525 :LKoen!~LKoen@191.254.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1616760366 863591 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think my favourite visualization was the "time used per game" thing, because you got really different graphs depending on how people implemented their time bookkeeping. Like, http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/ai2012/img/cpu_justice.png (the 2012 winner) is probably some sort of a "use a specific fraction of remaining time per move" kind of thing, while < 1616760371 804111 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/ai2012/img/cpu_angrymarmots.png is something more linear/situational. < 1616760524 312580 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even the JS-based game viewer still works. That's making me smile. Gotta be thankful for that backwards-compatibility and "dumb" web servers vs. "smart" clients, I guess. http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/ai2012/game.xhtml?justice-phailbot < 1616760542 148213 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, the XHTML 1.1 doctype's kind of obsolete by now. < 1616760882 511548 :LKoen!~LKoen@191.254.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1616761590 130095 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1616762799 107519 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric : " many shops here don't accept £50 notes, though, there's a perception that £50 notes are only used by criminals" => we don't have that perception, but shops sometimes refuse 10000 HUF or 20000 HUF notes because they don't have enough change for them. and the problem is, ATMs usually give you cash in the form of 10000 HUF and 20000 HUF notes, but post offices make it difficult to actually < 1616762805 92699 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :change these to smaller notes. so I'm quite affraid that within 10 years the whole fucking currency, including non-cache forms, will die in a cascading collapse where everyone will realize that 10000 HUF and 20000 HUF banknotes aren't actually worth 10000 HUF or 20000 HUF, so you can't reliably get money from your bank account as cash. < 1616762880 760343 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" ais523: here, shops have to accept every note if it's within reasonable margin of purchase" => well yes, but that doesn't help. cash does work well if you're doing building construction or reconstruction work, but not so well for everyday grocery purchases < 1616762925 624297 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not? < 1616762934 504905 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, i don't use it, usually, but i did < 1616762965 571601 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" […] the way you non-verbally behave makes a great difference in how more likely you'll be considered a criminal" => and the way you look too. and since I do look sort of like a criminal, I make efforts to conspiciously look like I'm not stealing when I'm in a supermarket or other large shop < 1616763052 440672 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oh look, that suspicious dude again" -- "nah, he's just from esolang" < 1616763082 90476 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" wtf is altgr?" => either the right alt key, or control plus the left alt key, used as a third layer besides unshifted and shifted for typing characters. you need to know about both right-alt and control+left-alt, because sometimes programs will preempt using one or the other for some shortcut so you can only type something with the other one. < 1616763130 857060 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it's the end of March, exactly the year of growing my beard < 1616763223 725822 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" he must have big hands" => I do have big hands, yes. useful for a rubik's cube. < 1616763245 462093 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would actually _not_ use cash for stuff like building constructions and use it for groceries < 1616763296 289820 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this epidemic is a gold for datamining < 1616763300 454150 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" how so? ctrl is lower than shift and you have to reach the other key" => I press control with the left edge of my left palm. this is an idiosyncratic thing that almost nobody else does, and it restricts my choice of keyboards significantly, because on most cheap keyboards the left control key is shaped in a way that this doesn't work. it does work well on classical keyboards similar to the < 1616763306 405635 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :model M and more expensive keyboards though. < 1616763317 19714 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recommend learning this by the way, just press control with your pinky like a normal person. < 1616763323 606951 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it does work well for me. < 1616763328 698008 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may or may not require large hands. < 1616763366 488593 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pressing ctrl with the edge of your hand sounds like pressing ctrl+a very uncomfortable < 1616763378 555351 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" shift-shift forces me to move them much further apart than I'd normally have them, making it slower to type" => we used to use shift+shift to switch between Hungarian and English keyboard layouts, before windows put it onto left-alt+shift or windows+space by default < 1616763458 776353 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" e.g. in the word "type", I type the "y" with my left hand because the right hand is covering "p" which is at the far end of the keyboard, that means my left hand is nowhere near left shift" => I don't understand this. how is left shift even relevant for the word "type"? if you mean "y" instead of left shift, I still don't get it. < 1616763523 487699 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you type with classic 10 finger system (which i hate) on qwerty, the y is supposed to be pressed with your right index finger < 1616763536 627675 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I almost never use the wrong hand for letters when typing text, but I do often use the wrong shift key (left shift when right shift would be easier), and sometimes use the wrong hand when pressing individual keys rather than contiguous text < 1616763598 314628 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" also on macOS I don't really close files -- I keep them all opened forever" => that doesn't really solve how you open them again though, or how you find the already opened instance < 1616763613 972726 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if you don't close them, you want an open command for finding the already open instance < 1616763777 277049 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"hmm… I wonder whether nontemporal reads would make a significant improvement for that sort of workflow?" => I doubt it. nontemporal works for random access, but not for sequential access. you don't have large enough registers (before avx512) to load an entire cache line, so to read anything sequentially you'll need to read the same cache line twice or four times, and nontemporal makes that worse. < 1616763850 109416 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" I've been spending weeks looking at low-level processor performance in order to write the world's fastest FizzBuzz" => I feel like you have to optimize displaying the output for that. presumably with actual VGA text mode, rather than a terminal emulator. < 1616763925 857357 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"how you find the already opened instance" -- fuzzy file path search feature that is probably now in all IDEs < 1616763943 134200 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" and send the fizzbuzz thingy via serial" => that's even worse, serial terminal speed is the bottleneck then, isn't it? or maybe these USB3 serial port drivers make it faster? hmm < 1616763947 215216 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :keyboard only < 1616764125 272408 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" did they even realise finally that half of the problems they are posting isn't codegolf?" => how is that a problem? it started as a "programming puzzles and code golf" site, then got renamed to "code golf" when people mostly posted golf, but you can still post non-golf problems < 1616764190 455386 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :no matter if there was "programming puzzles" in the name they always ranked answers by char length < 1616764229 326029 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" community-wiki every answer" => there's a backdoor where you can turn a question to CW if you edit it like sixteen times, waiting between so the versions aren't coalesced. does that work for answers too, and can you do it if you have reputation 1? < 1616764338 406974 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" but some people on CGCC literally admitted to run a bruteforcing tool to find solutions to problems." => as they should, if problems are so simple that that works. the solution to that is to post more interesting problems. < 1616764456 561306 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"if problems are so simple that that works. the solution to that is to post more interesting problems." -- there will be no "solution" because no one was interested in "solving" it, because they all considered it to be valid codegolfing -- you can't "solve" it by trying to teach a thousand of users by "showing better example of problems" because < 1616764456 667879 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they'll just ignore it -- this is what the voting system is now for on SE < 1616764481 166278 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a community driven censorship of those who have something to say instead of just repeating each other < 1616764502 125870 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" so, programs that only sometimes print the correct answer are no longer allowed" => ah, so $$ in perl is no longer as useful < 1616764589 486252 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" I know I've submitted a CGCC answer which only worked in one specific old version of Java (IIRC 1.4)" => I have an old post about that phenomenon at https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=866594 . < 1616764732 535157 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" How many "golfing" competitions are there where the program size is fixed, and the goal is to find the best solution within that size?" => there was one old competition for writing a rubik's cube solver where your score was the product of (your program size) with (your program runtime) with (number of face turns in the solution found) or something like that. < 1616764760 330364 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are demoscene competitions limited to 4 kilobytes and, um, 64 kilobytes? or something that fit < 1616764767 972238 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, they don't count as golf < 1616764901 868852 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1616764902 13847 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" why not?" => because the grocery purchases are of lower value < 1616764927 345552 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I don't understand this. ← talking about how shift-shift is a bad shortcut because normally at least one of my hands isn't near the corresponding shift < 1616764943 587581 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Client Quit < 1616764945 5764 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: ... so it is actually easier to check if the amount given is enough to pay < 1616764986 823109 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1616765002 35191 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" i would actually _not_ use cash for stuff like building constructions" => you don't really get a choice. basically all the people working for individual construction projects (i.e. reconstructing your home house, as opposed to big projects that the government commissions) will ask for cash. you can still use cash for groceries though, and often have to at smaller vendors, because only larger < 1616765008 35444 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ones accept cards. < 1616765034 768730 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" pressing ctrl with the edge of your hand sounds like pressing ctrl+a very uncomfortable" => not really. it's not the easiest control key, but it's not too hard either. < 1616765048 212080 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :control+b is actually harder < 1616765085 890644 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" if you type with classic 10 finger system (which i hate) on qwerty, the y is supposed to be pressed with your right index finger" => yes, and I don't understand ais's rationale for presssing it with the left hand < 1616765106 283523 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't find it strange that he presses it with his left hand, that's quite reasonable, but I don't understand his specific argument < 1616765192 18160 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :callforjudgement: yes, but you don't need to switch between Hungarian and English layout often, it's a rare action, so it's fine to use a not too good shortcut. but yes, it's a bad shortcut. < 1616765298 678380 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also cash vs card reminds me. in the US some people still use cheques. I only ever received a cheque once, as a prize for a golfing competition organized by an american company. I never wrote a cheque, it's not a thing in Europe, not anymore at least. < 1616765386 457082 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :we just use cash, debit cards, credit cards, various cards and paper slips with restricted usage (e.g. food only) as tax saving measures, and the occasional shop-specific gift card < 1616765559 375012 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to have a shortcut for switching between the UK and FI layouts, but for some unexplicable reason gave that up, and now write the two accented characters you need in Finnish (ä, ö) using the dead-key accents the UK layout has (altgr-[, where [ is the key immediately to the right of p, produces a dead diaeresis). > 1616765569 603832 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Baba Is You14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81572&oldid=79953 5* 03Bo Tie 5* (+500) 10Baba is not confirmed to be a rabbit. Also fixed capitalization inconsistency and added more words < 1616765609 347106 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: how do you type their capital versions Ä and Ö? < 1616765620 831074 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you not need those for finnish? I am hazy on how finnish works < 1616765629 650453 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just altgr-[ follwed by shift-A. < 1616765641 344639 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, dead-key accents < 1616765659 433116 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not single altgr combos. I see < 1616765678 999287 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you type a lot of finnish with accents? < 1616765709 446711 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any nontrivial amount of Finnish will require ä or ö, if that's what you mean. But I don't write that much in Finnish in the first place. < 1616765732 343413 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but does it require the capitals? < 1616765797 652222 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. Yes, sometimes. Though I think those two are maybe slightly less common (but still present) as the initial letter of a word, and of course only so many words start a sentence (or are proper names). < 1616765809 173786 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's why I gave up dvorak layout when I tried it by the way: it's based on the idea that you type vowels with your left hand and consonants with your right, but that doesn't work so well for Hungarian text that needs a lot of á and é and k and some z and y but very few h < 1616765827 977426 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strictly speaking you also would sometimes need Å or å, which is a bit of a problem, because I don't think the ° is in the UK layout. But it's so rare, I haven't even learned what the compose sequence for that is. < 1616765875 551907 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's five dead-key accents in the five symbol keys between the letters and the enter key in the UK layout, but they're äãáâà, no å. < 1616765893 440618 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: isn't it on altgr with some number? < 1616765936 661327 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I guess it's easier to just learn the unicode code point number 0xE5 < 1616765945 801482 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, at least on this system. The number row with altgr produces non-dead symbols ¹²³€½¾{[]}, in order. < 1616765959 901193 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1616765962 48159 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, turns out it's just compose-o-a to get å. < 1616765967 334973 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That should be easy enough to remember. < 1616766030 284865 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure why altgr-7..0 is {[]} when there's dedicated [] keys (with {} as their shifted variants) almost right next to them. < 1616766092 706950 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And compose-o-A gives Å. Fair enough. Next time I need to mention Åland Islands to someone, I'll use that instead of copying it from the "Swedish alphabet" wikipedia article. < 1616766229 777157 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`python -cprint('\u00C5land Islands') < 1616766231 199226 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​\u00C5land Islands < 1616766233 787241 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1616766245 811554 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`python3 -cprint('\u00C5land Islands') < 1616766247 245315 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Åland Islands < 1616766248 562720 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah < 1616766519 732311 :LKoen!~LKoen@191.254.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1616766572 779824 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, do you contain chemicals? < 1616766572 932981 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: today i am in cbe only. but have to seek. hee < 1616766583 684735 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, do you contain chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer? < 1616766583 848030 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: wat.? abt the imp. at one? if dun go dunno... i oso saw a top dat i like but din say. there. emulsified. < 1616766590 70613 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ruby -v < 1616766590 894540 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :ruby 2.5.5p157 (2019-03-15 revision 67260) [x86_64-linux-gnu] < 1616766632 555757 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :his response sounds like he was caught consuming chemicals < 1616766782 659316 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot is known to the state of California to contain chemicals that may cause cancer. < 1616766782 871895 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: hey me just drop into a cafe to get a cd? if poss. tc *cricinfo alerts are like coming. shuhui also like to attend to. just wish to pass me... haha < 1616766883 323704 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :My terminal (urxvt) has this weirdo "keycap picture insertion mode", triggered by left-control + left-shift (as a tap, with no other keys), which makes it possible to e.g. press space to get ␣ or enter to get ↵. < 1616766923 136432 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never had an actual use for that, only ever triggered it accidentally (thinking of pressing ctrl-shift-something but then decided not to). < 1616766972 106551 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: there's a switch to disable it. I always do. < 1616766989 683527 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :urxvt ++iso14755_52 < 1616767029 468887 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess it might be a semi-convenient way to type ←↑→↓ though. (I just use compose "->" for the horizontal arrows, but not sure how I'd type the vertical ones.) < 1616767095 337907 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, for a more complete command line, (export LC_CTYPE=hu_HU.utf8; urxvt -ls -geometry 80x25 +sb -b 0 -bg \#000000 -fg \#c0c0c0 --colorBD \#ffffff --color0 \#000000 --color1 \#aa0000 --color2 \#00aa00 --color3 \#aa5500 --color4 \#0000ff --color5 \#aa00aa --color6 \#00aaaa --color7 \#c0c0c0 --color8 \#555555 --color9 \#ff5555 --color10 \#55ff55 --color11 \#ffff55 --color12 \#5588ff --color13 \#ff55ff < 1616767101 456993 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :--color14 \#55ffff --color15 \#ffffff -cr \#c0f0a0 -fn "x:-*-fecupboard-medium-r-*-*-20-*-*-*-*-*-iso10646-1,x:-*-terminus-bold-r-*-*-20-*-*-*-*-*-iso10646-1" --boldFont "" -vb -sbg --print-pipe false --pointerBlank --pointerBlankDelay 2147483647 ++iso14755_52 "%@") < 1616767105 312247 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1616767107 879206 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"$@" instead of "%@" < 1616767129 283913 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw, keycap picture insert mode doesn't insert the Microsoftⓡ Windowsⓡ™ logo when used with the Windows key. < 1616767140 33853 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking it'd sneakily take a picture of your keyboard and figure out what's printed on it. < 1616767190 379322 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least the more standard keys (⎋⇥⇧⎈⇭) work with it. < 1616767192 442642 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, no copying the buffers, also you operate it directly if you boot < 1616767783 890449 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :For ↑ and ↓ i have in my .XCompose: „ : "↑" U2191“ and „ : "↓" U2193“ < 1616767939 760895 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The two „b“ for pointing a_b_ove, and „v“ looks like ↓ 😉) < 1616767956 658051 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not hjkl < 1616767958 570923 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it _b_elow? < 1616767981 440045 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or _b_ack as in left? < 1616767986 340438 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but „a“ is too far away from „v“ 😉 < 1616768132 311254 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wordperfect directions esdx then < 1616768775 221051 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :And many First-Person-Shooters wads. But for Compose we already have ← and → as <- and -> < 1616768816 117173 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course we could use ^| and v| or something ☺ < 1616768876 657245 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, v| already makes ↓ here < 1616768919 885152 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :And ^| makes ↑ < 1616768921 803707 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good to know ☺ < 1616769419 216724 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1616769444 851616 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 JOIN :#esoteric < 1616769983 36836 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98aa4.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1616770044 253573 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98aa4.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still have "Forget is for getting" burned in my brain. I think that's shachaf's pun? Ironically enough, I've forgotten everything else about lenses < 1616770690 562936 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, why do you consider Cruella de Vil your favorite Disney villain? < 1616770690 710440 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: poda wat is personal btwn ur fingers just press wrong one lor i thk his students < 1616770918 128170 :sprock!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1616771505 965725 :delta23!~deltaepsi@unaffiliated/deltaepsilon23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1616771940 890091 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1616771995 751968 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1616772085 873849 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks for the v| ^| tip. I did half-heartedly try a few v- and ^-based ideas, but didn't think of combining them with |. < 1616772242 228150 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Next mystery: => gives ⇒, but what about the other directions? <= is just ≤, and there's no key for ‖ to compose v and ^ with. < 1616772570 714905 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also not good: on this system, both compose +- and compose -+ gives ±, which is a missed opportunity; one of them should give ∓ instead. < 1616772811 559096 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.148 QUIT :Quit: Leaving > 1616773246 339924 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Zirconium14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81573&oldid=81571 5* 03Strohtaler 5* (-1) 10/* Example: Fibonacci stopping after number count */ < 1616773984 144982 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, they're called "private" bits, not "personal" < 1616773984 303371 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: she was gonna ask me to die every now and then, ithink i can ' t go... would love to get married one cannot intro > 1616774328 93390 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81574&oldid=81005 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+42) 10Add a test < 1616774840 259460 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Same here > 1616777691 596017 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81575&oldid=81548 5* 03Not applicable 5* (+671) 10add (untested) Ti-Nspire Basic one < 1616777917 649754 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: That's what Forget is for. > 1616778225 669052 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Functional()14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81576&oldid=78488 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+824) 10Add TIO links < 1616779044 441267 :arcsor5!~textual@104.206.206.147 JOIN :#esoteric > 1616779319 984496 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Truttle114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81577&oldid=81556 5* 03Truttle1 5* (+110) 10 < 1616779717 192756 :mla!~mla@162.253.176.229 JOIN :#esoteric < 1616779806 301486 :owocean[m]!owoceanwho@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ijvjnjxxqpqgewmz JOIN :#esoteric > 1616779879 417359 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Functional()14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81578&oldid=81576 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+1710) 10Add more TIO links < 1616779939 38970 :owocean[m]!owoceanwho@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ijvjnjxxqpqgewmz PART #esoteric :"User left" < 1616779975 963708 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :v| and ^| don't do anything for me < 1616780059 437161 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. I can do v| and |v and both result in ↓. < 1616780200 336221 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm possibly using some GTK input method instead of the base X compose feature < 1616780227 236921 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike previous machines where I had compose set up, this one shows the individual characters as I type them, underlined, and with a prompt before them that looks like an overlapping square and circle < 1616780240 552797 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it all disappears and is replaced with the target character when I complete a sequence < 1616780281 547536 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :on Tuesday I'm getting a new laptop! haven't decided what OS to run on it < 1616780286 635138 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might go back to Windows + WSL < 1616780298 733346 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is some Windows-only software I'd like to run < 1616780354 465367 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I will have 8 cores and 48 GB of RAM so running virtual machines is not a big deal < 1616780427 737068 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure which one is better to use as the base OS < 1616780432 681358 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :windows might have better power management < 1616780767 193577 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm maybe getting some sort of a visual thing like that on my work laptop too. < 1616780822 254535 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's a thing I kind of would like WSL to have: now that it's a real kernel (AIUI, in WSL2), they could expose those drives that Windows doesn't know what to do with as block devices to the Linux thing, so that they could be mounted in there. < 1616780872 753440 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do dual boot on this every once every few months (for games), and every time I'm over on that side, there's some file or whatever that's only accessible to the other operating system. < 1616780922 323140 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had that sort of working on a VirtualBox thing at one point, but it was still a hassle. < 1616780962 516701 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1616780976 936336 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it's possible to boot an actual hard drive partition in a VM < 1616780985 577230 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I had that working once, back when I dual-booted < 1616781006 179151 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :but dual booting seems less and less appealing over time > 1616781071 746755 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Parse this sic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81579&oldid=81250 5* 03Digital Hunter 5* (+1342) 10/* Computational class */ Turing-complete! > 1616781106 543120 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81580&oldid=81559 5* 03Zzo38 5* (+2072) 10Free Hero Mesh < 1616781182 867001 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I turned on that thing in Steam that lets you apply Proton to any game, not only the ones they've verified, and from what I've read it works pretty well for many things. Maybe that's why I think I haven't booted the Windows installation this year yet. < 1616781211 691349 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :One unappealing part of it is that when you don't use it in months, installing all the updates is kind of terrible. < 1616781439 910924 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's Proton? some WINE-like thing? < 1616781501 831338 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1616781503 451909 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I think it's technically a fork of Wine that Valve maintains? Something like that. < 1616781520 211596 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1616781522 360945 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :worth looking into < 1616781566 712953 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't play games very much < 1616781593 684084 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I might want Windows for 3D CAD software or weirdo ham radio software < 1616781731 771743 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1616781990 607674 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Usually, if the software is Windows, I just use different software instead. DOSBOX can run 16-bit Windows programs (if you have Windows 3.1), although it is slow. I cannot install Wine on my computer due to conflicts in the package manager. < 1616782176 866761 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many programs are already available for many operating systems, anyways (or there is another program which does mainly the same thing, for another operating system, e.g. a NES/Famicom emulator). < 1616782311 57845 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos PRIVMSG #esoteric :david madore's interview on esoteric.codes https://esoteric.codes/blog/david-madore , didn't realise it's so easy to have a machine that beats oracle_n TMs for all n < 1616783732 185388 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i meant the hyperarithmetical machine) < 1616784900 715 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Quit: quit < 1616785657 244075 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think many people they will write new free software to do the same things as some other software < 1616786769 548738 :adu_!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1616787422 748911 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-11-168.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay! I installed the new speakers for my home computer. it's the third try, the first two (cheaper) speakers that I bought weren't suitable. < 1616787467 209575 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1616787598 104376 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1616787598 249736 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life > 1616790279 497381 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07106614]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81581&oldid=78471 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-39) 10/* Commands */ grm < 1616791918 309146 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.226.89.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1616792086 75775 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1616792116 141386 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1616792310 151573 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN :#esoteric < 1616792331 224592 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid JOIN :#esoteric < 1616792509 865112 :arcsor5!~textual@104.206.206.147 QUIT :Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… > 1616793037 566605 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07OISC14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81582&oldid=81158 5* 03Kefalonia 5* (+0) 10*p < 1616793144 199170 :arcsor5!~textual@104.206.206.147 JOIN :#esoteric < 1616793163 563560 :adu_!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu_ > 1616793290 941696 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SBN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81583&oldid=81160 5* 03Kefalonia 5* (+45) 10explain > 1616793300 546560 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Fargo14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81584&oldid=79648 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+760) 10I/O; Truth-machine < 1616793852 954592 :adu_!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1616794121 637527 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rotterdam has an area that's literally called "Cool District"? That's a little presumptuous, isn't it. (Okay, okay, it's not the same "Cool".) < 1616794817 155715 :adu_!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu_ < 1616794930 271041 :adu_!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1616795129 740639 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Community portal14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81585&oldid=81567 5* 03Heavpoot 5* (-36) 10 > 1616795374 501491 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Clsource 5* 10New user account > 1616795491 427334 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81586&oldid=81518 5* 03Clsource 5* (+63) 10/* Introductions */ < 1616795618 260795 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1616795688 678416 :adu_!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu_ < 1616796631 504491 :LKoen!~LKoen@191.254.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1616796853 571907 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`olist 1230 < 1616796854 801888 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1230.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas > 1616796918 287432 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ogu14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81587 5* 03Clsource 5* (+809) 10Added Og Language > 1616797165 670682 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81588&oldid=81505 5* 03Clsource 5* (+10) 10Added Ogu > 1616800566 834119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Truttle114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81589&oldid=81577 5* 03Heavpoot 5* (+116) 10 < 1616800782 38538 :arcsor5!~textual@104.206.206.147 QUIT :Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… > 1616800998 270361 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Uyjhmn n14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81590&oldid=74574 5* 03Heavpoot 5* (+29) 10this *is* turing complete, right? > 1616801042 417504 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Uyjhmn n14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81591&oldid=81590 5* 03Heavpoot 5* (+0) 10uncapitalize the letter c in turing complete. oops. < 1616802399 96806 :arcsor5!~textual@104.206.206.147 JOIN :#esoteric