←2021-03-27 2021-03-28 2021-03-29→ ↑2021 ↑all
00:14:59 <esowiki> [[Category:2026]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81616 * Heavpoot * (+77) Created page with "This category consists of esolangs made in the year 2026. [[Category:Years]]"
00:54:32 <b_jonas> `ftoc 1000
00:54:34 <HackEso> 1000.00°F = 537.78°C
00:54:57 <int-e> `? dst
00:54:59 <HackEso> dst? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:55:29 <int-e> wtf is heavpoot up to now
01:00:00 * int-e mourns the loss of a full hour. We miss you, 2020-03-28, 2am to 3am CET. Life will never be the same without you.
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01:02:13 <int-e> and... I mixed up 2020 and 2021
01:04:44 <fizzie> Oh, right, that's why it's that late already.
01:05:03 <kmc> F
01:05:16 <kmc> we did that a few weeks ago
01:05:28 <fizzie> I was looking at backscroll of another channel after being away a bit, and wondering how could it possibly have been over an hour ago.
01:06:08 <fizzie> I like the two weeks between the US and EU DST switches, some of my meetings are earlier than usual.
01:06:34 <fizzie> Back when meeting rooms were still a consideration, all of the bookings got messed up for those two weeks.
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01:06:59 <int-e> sometimes it's 3 weeks... not this year
01:07:22 <fizzie> I had someone join a meeting from a proper meeting room (in Zürich) last week, it was pretty weird.
01:07:56 <fizzie> And someone else had one of the London office (still fully closed) rooms dial into their meeting automatically, but there was nobody there, which I think would've been not just weird but creepy.
01:10:39 <kmc> lol
01:11:06 <kmc> after SARS 3: TurboSARS wipes out all of humanity your conference rooms will still be automatically calling each other
01:11:26 <kmc> SARS 3.11 for Workgroups
01:11:53 <int-e> kmc: so you think so? I imagine electricity will fail rather quickly if people are truly wiped out
01:16:43 <kmc> eh, i don't know
01:16:51 <kmc> it was more of a joke than a serious prediction
01:17:38 <int-e> sorry. it's just that this is a question I've actually pondered... with no idea how to estimate this properly
01:20:52 <int-e> basically I have no real clue how much day to day maintenance people put into maintaining the underlying infrastructure. in this case, electricity and networks.
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02:14:58 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81617&oldid=81579 * Digital Hunter * (+2) /* Fibonacci numbers */
02:20:44 <kmc> i'm amused by the fact that, like many programming languages, OpenSCAD has a lot of libraries pertaining to threads, but "threads" means something completely different
02:44:10 <zzo38> What does "threads" mean in OpenSCAD?
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03:05:29 <kmc> zzo38: like the threads of a screw
03:05:41 <kmc> it's a 3D CAD language, so there are libraries to generate threads
03:06:50 <kmc> it doesn't have threads in the other sense, although it is a purely declarative language, so I suppose the implementation is free to evaluate stuff in parallel if it wants to
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05:22:17 <zzo38> OK
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05:57:30 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81618&oldid=81598 * Citrons * (-177) add description that we voted on
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08:05:39 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81619&oldid=81446 * Aspwil * (+53) /* Instructions */
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08:54:00 <esowiki> [[Category:2026]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81620&oldid=81616 * Heavpoot * (-66) Amend to {{Yearcat}}
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10:53:09 <esowiki> [[Macron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81621&oldid=81609 * Ais523 * (-17) obviously 2026 is not an accurate creation year for this esolang
10:53:41 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Category:2026]]": not useful to have year categories for future years (even if you think an esolang will be created in a given year, you can't be sure)
10:55:27 <esowiki> [[Seed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81622&oldid=81551 * Ais523 * (-17) I think the consensus is to have some warning mark on links that aren't internal to mainspace that they go someplace else (e.g. userspace or Wikipedia), so making the "wikipedia:" prefix visible
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11:33:52 <ais523> I'm wondering whether zipquines are Turing-complete, Underload/Muriel-style
11:34:22 <ais523> i.e. the zip file expands to a directory containing another zip file, which expands to a directory containing another zip file, etc., and if you keep expanding forever, either you reach an empty directory (halting) or you don't
11:34:50 <ais523> you could also take input by expanding to a directory with multiple files (choose which to open), or produce output by putting a .txt file with the output in the expanded directory
11:35:20 <myname> in rar, it should be easily doable
11:35:26 <ais523> the basic problem is as to whether the compression algorithm that .zip uses is capable of implementing a TC language when interpreted that way
11:35:50 <ais523> I don't know much about how rar works internally
11:36:13 <myname> https://github.com/taviso/rarvmtools
11:36:35 <myname> tl;dr there is an assembly to rar compiler
11:36:39 <ais523> hmm, deprecated :-(
11:36:50 <ais523> probably for the best?
11:37:10 <ais523> "A RarVM program may execute for at most 250,000,000 instructions, at which point it will be terminated abnormally."
11:37:14 <ais523> that looks like a limit on TCness
11:37:24 <myname> indeed
11:37:41 <ais523> but maybe not, it could be possible to use multiple programs for the actual logic and store data in large segments that just get copied literally
11:38:29 <myname> i remember having a tiny rar file with a valid jpg of like 1 gb or something that you could use to get more storage in dropbox
11:40:19 <arseniiv> myname: how did it work?
11:40:36 <arseniiv> btw hi #esoteric
11:41:27 <myname> well, just have a rarvm program printing the jpg header and drop a bunch of zeros in a loop
12:00:45 <ais523> <fizzie> I like the two weeks between the US and EU DST switches, some of my meetings are earlier than usual. ← has the EU postponed its decision to stop using daylight saving time?
12:01:07 <ais523> (the UK is keeping it for the time being, but they weren't included in the decision because of Brexit)
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12:02:39 <myname> afaik it's not postponed, it's not entirely clear whether to stay in normal or summer time
12:02:56 <ais523> looks like it was postponed to October 2021, but then there was a row related to Ireland
12:03:04 <myname> ah
12:03:15 <ais523> because Northern Ireland is currently planning to keep daylight saving time but the Republic of Ireland doesn't want to be in a different timezone from it
12:03:29 <ais523> so the next steps are somewhat unclear
12:03:30 <myname> hahaha
12:04:25 <ais523> interestingly it was IANA who caused the initial postponement, they said they couldn't get the world's timezone infrastructure updated by the deadline unless they had more notice
12:05:01 <myname> i wonder how many programs are going to be wrong
12:05:56 <ais523> timezone updates happen all the time
12:06:07 <ais523> but not very often for any individual country
12:06:32 <ais523> at least on my Ubuntu system, when a country changes its timezone rules, there's a security update to patch the timezone database with the new information
12:06:42 <ais523> (presumably because having the wrong idea of what time it is can be a security problem sometimes)
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13:01:45 <ontoquina> are there any coders here?
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13:04:45 <ais523> ontoquina: I think most of the channel is made up of programmers
13:04:53 <ais523> although they aren't necessarily online at any given time
13:05:11 <ais523> many of the Americans will still be asleep
13:05:53 <int-e> don't forget the bots
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13:09:41 <ontoquina> are you a c programmer?
13:10:36 <fizzie> That's narrowing it down, but still likely true for many.
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13:11:08 <fizzie> fungot: Are you a Befunge programmer, or a Befunge program? </deep>
13:11:08 <fungot> fizzie: let's ' ang ' er. i think ( relatively, at least in brown university, where we've stolen the material from, they have notion of classes methods, etc.
13:12:38 <int-e> . o O ( does reading K&R make you a C programmer )
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13:26:22 <ontoquina> https://www.udoo.org/udoo-quad-dual/
13:27:01 <ontoquina> i'm looking for some information which will help me to write a piece of code that will display the output voltage state of the GPIO pin
13:27:39 <ontoquina> but also loop over and over again
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13:29:45 <b_jonas> int-e: also we miss you, 2021-03-26 02:00 to 03:00 Jerusalem time.
13:30:06 <int-e> friday?
13:45:25 <b_jonas> ais523: re zip quines, I expect it might be Turing complete, because zip can probably implement some kind of tag system, encoding state in the current Huffman table which it resets more often than a typical zip file, and then you apply that repeatedly with the zip quine method
13:46:02 <b_jonas> though you'd probably have to waste a lot of space to make the Adler checksum match
13:46:35 <b_jonas> "<ais523> because Northern Ireland is currently planning to keep daylight saving time but the Republic of Ireland doesn't want to be in a different timezone from it / so the next steps are somewhat unclear
13:47:54 <b_jonas> " => how's it unclear? it's been clear as a day for years that the only way the UK can keep its three contradictory promises (no border between Ireland and Northern Ireland; border between the UK and EU; no independent Northern Ireland) is to convince Ireland to leave the EU. what you say about the timezone just confirms that.
13:51:43 <b_jonas> "<ais523> (presumably because having the wrong idea of what time it is can be a security problem sometimes)" => yep, the specific example I always imagine is when there's a peace conference about some nation that wants to be an independent country specified in local time, the leader of that region has announced three weeks ago on local television that they will use a different timezone, the
13:51:49 <b_jonas> representative of the mediator country checks four sources on the web for what timezone that region uses to make sure he arrives at the right time, but nobody who understands the local language and watches that dictator on TV bothered to write to the timezone mailing list, so the mediator arrives an hour late and a war is started
13:51:51 <ais523> ontoquina: I don't think there are many experts on GPIO configuration for specific devices here
13:51:58 <ais523> it's not really a programming question, more of a finding-documentation question
13:52:16 <ais523> especially because you're trying to hook your own outputs, not take input or produce outputs
13:52:42 <ais523> b_jonas: I thought security updates were about computer security, not national security
13:53:50 <b_jonas> ais523: ok, but your definition of security wouldn't have helped me when there's a fucking war 200 kilometers from the south of here
13:54:05 <b_jonas> s/from/to/
13:55:19 <b_jonas> the only saving grace is that the dictator who is the most likely to do this is leading Kazakhstan, which is clearly an independent country, not a region that newly wants to be an independent country.
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13:57:03 <ontoquina> ais523: i'm not trying to do any of that
13:57:46 <ontoquina> all i want is to make cat value repeat in a terminal for a number of times rather than just type it in
13:57:59 <ais523> ontoquina: you might be better off finding some sort of beginning-programming channel, I think; one of the important steps in programming is being able to clearly communicate what you're trying to do
13:58:11 <ais523> and if it's that step you're having trouble with, talking to experienced programmers won't normally help much
14:01:32 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, about that definition, I think at one point debian had separate categories for "security updates" and "volatile"
14:01:53 <b_jonas> and I think timezones were in the volatile category, but I'm not sure
14:01:57 <ontoquina> ais523: i found the answer already and yes it was a simple terminal entry
14:04:29 <ontoquina> the question was quite simple,.. how do i loop the command cat value in a linux terminal?
14:06:38 <fizzie> Fair enough, but that had nothing to do with C programming.
14:06:57 <ais523> ontoquina: that isn't a simple question, because it doesn't clearly define what you're trying to do or what the problem is
14:07:16 <ais523> it isn't possible to interpret what you mean without more information
14:07:25 <ais523> and I still don't have much of an idea of what you were trying to do or what you did to change it
14:07:46 <esowiki> [[BitBounce]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81623&oldid=65732 * Hakerh400 * (+2122) Add TIO links
14:08:05 <fizzie> On that topic, though, I never remember to use watch(1) for anything, even though it's kind of a neat tool.
14:08:18 <ais523> (although one possible interpretation would have lead to an amusing answer: "what's the shell command to produce the same output over and over again in a loop?" "yes")
14:08:28 <ontoquina> https://www.howtoforge.com/linux-watch-command/
14:08:46 <ontoquina> ais523: you are welcome
14:08:56 <ais523> fizzie: I didn't know of it
14:09:01 <ais523> I guess top is just a fancier version of watch ps
14:09:45 <b_jonas> I have actually used something like watch 'some other command; top b'
14:09:57 <int-e> watch -n 0.1 date #command line "real time" clock
14:10:17 <b_jonas> possibly watch 'df $dest; top b' where $dest is where I'm writing the compressed backup
14:10:31 <fizzie> Yeah, I keep doing `while true; date; sleep 0.3; done`
14:10:42 <fizzie> Although for a one-line command I kind of like seeing the history.
14:10:46 <int-e> (actually that's redundant because `watch` also displays the date)
14:10:51 <ais523> int-e: -n 1 -p would be enough, if you ran it just marginally after the start of a second
14:10:58 <ais523> and use only 1/10 of the CPU time
14:11:12 <int-e> ais523: I didn't trust myself to do that.
14:11:15 <ontoquina> right sure i understand what you are saying
14:11:32 <int-e> (the "marginally after the start of a second part, that is)
14:13:44 <int-e> ais523: I did that this morning around 2am :) (And I only used it for a few seconds anyway)
14:14:01 <ais523> I don't think I've watched the daylight saving time in ages
14:14:05 <ais523> was asleep when it happened today
14:15:26 <int-e> sane
14:17:51 <b_jonas> oh, and I think I've been using (watch ls $dest) or similar to watch the list of compressed backup files grow
14:18:48 <ais523> my usual technique for that (not that I use it very often) is just to run ls manually every now and then
14:18:52 <b_jonas> in one screen window; the other window shows the output from my compressed backup tool (which is a perl script that is one of the longest lived utility that I wrote, and might soon beat cbstream in that ranking) and from the 7z compressor that it invokes
14:19:19 <ais523> I normally do my backups with rsync
14:19:37 <ais523> I've tried a variety of tools over the years, but rsync has the benefit of being incredibly simple
14:20:02 <ais523> (and producing backups that can be restored without it)
14:20:20 <ais523> compressing backups is of course possible, but I'm not completely sure it's worth it, especially as fast compressors tend not to get good ratios
14:20:44 <fizzie> I've settled on bip and some homegrown infrastructure around it.
14:20:58 <fizzie> Uh, bup, not bip.
14:21:13 <fizzie> The latter is that IRC proxy, which I've also settled on, but isn't related to backups.
14:21:34 <b_jonas> ais523: compression helps for full backups, where the file system contains a lot of files that compress well even with fast compressors, but admittedly this was more important back when I wrote backups to CDs or DVDs
14:22:15 <b_jonas> it won't help for backing up all my JPEG photos obviously
14:22:24 <b_jonas> or films
14:22:33 <ais523> right, the paradox of compressed backups is that the files that compress well are generally the small ones that don't need compressing
14:22:42 <ais523> because the big ones are probably stored in a compressed format already
14:23:43 <fizzie> Optical disc images are one category of files that can be reasonably big yet sometimes still compressible.
14:24:05 <fizzie> (Because of whoever made the disc wanted the program using it to be able to read data without worrying about compression.)
14:24:08 <b_jonas> ais523: (1) small files don't matter, for a backup I use solid compression because I don't need to be able to random access individual files from the backup quickly; (2) I have a build directory with lots of third party software source code that is uncompressed at any moment, and I don't bother excluding the uncompressed versions from the backup
14:25:30 <b_jonas> fizzie: you'd think that, but have you checked how large the live system image is on a debian hybrid installer and live image DVD? it seems impossible to fit both the live image and package repository in that space even with compression
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14:27:16 <b_jonas> my old DOS boot floppy uncompresses every program to a ramdisk, so most of the contents is a zip.zip compressed archive, with only IO.SYS, MSDOS.SYS, COMMAND.COM, HIMEM.SYS, RAMDRIVE.SYS and four smaller files outside of it
14:28:02 <b_jonas> admittedly those five big files still take a lot of space on a floppy
14:28:05 <ais523> it's weird thinking about memory being larger than disk space
14:28:16 <ais523> but it was indeed the case back before hard drives were common
14:28:17 <ais523> or, hmm, maybe not?
14:28:30 <b_jonas> it wasn't
14:28:31 <ais523> 3.5" floppy disk is 1.44MiB
14:28:47 <ais523> and conventional memory was 640KiB, but systems normally also had some amount of unconventional memory
14:28:51 <ais523> so it would have been pretty close
14:29:06 <b_jonas> people didn't have 640 KiB when they had 1.44MiB floppies
14:29:15 <int-e> was it ever common to have 360kb floppy, 640k RAM?
14:29:34 <b_jonas> wasn't the 360k floppy called "double density"? or is that the 720K?
14:29:52 <b_jonas> and people usually had two disk drives if they didn't have a hard drive, and they did usually have a hard drive, even if a small one
14:29:53 <ais523> I think high density was 1.44 and double was 720, but I may be completely wrong on that
14:29:58 <ais523> it's hard to remember after this long
14:30:08 <int-e> 180k per side = single density?
14:30:27 <ais523> I know that on one computer I used, the floppy drive access light went orange for one density of floppy disk and green for the other commonly used density
14:30:28 <b_jonas> I think there's some trick with "double sided", but maybe that's only for 5 inch (CD-sized) floppies
14:30:37 <int-e> it's complicated because those two dimensions developed independently (two-sided floppies and higher density)
14:30:50 <ais523> I've used 5¼ inch floppy disks before, but not on a PC
14:31:21 <ais523> they're much simpler than the 3½ disks, which have some sort of automatically sliding cover to cover the disk itself
14:31:45 <b_jonas> I think the smallest PC I've actually worked on was a laptop with 1M of RAM and 20M of hard disk
14:31:49 <ais523> the 5¼, there wasn't a cover on the disk itself, and the disk came with a little paper jacket that you used to protect it from dust when it wasn't inserted into a drive
14:32:40 <ais523> apparently 8-inch floppy disks also existed but I've never used one
14:32:49 <int-e> ais523: I think the main improvement came from the little metal disk in the center, allowing for grabbing the disk with higher precision
14:33:02 <b_jonas> ais523: I never used one, but I saw a disk drive exhibited (no longer used) somewhere
14:33:50 <int-e> but... overall, floppy disk reliability was awful for both 5 1/4" and 3 1/2", at least in my experiencxe
14:34:04 <b_jonas> also I think the write protect tabs work backwards on a 5 inch floppy versus a 3.5 inch floppy:
14:35:04 <int-e> yes
14:35:05 <b_jonas> the 3.5 inch one has a sliding tab and a hole means ... read-only I think, whereas a 5 inch floppy can have a hole punched through its plastic cover in a corner with possibly a plastic sticker to cover it later, and the hole means writable. or backwards. I don't remember.
14:35:09 <ais523> I had more physical failures of the disks (important connections getting jammed, etc.) than I did data loss
14:35:20 <b_jonas> and I think the 3.5 inch floppy has a possible hole on its other corner to indicate format
14:35:26 <ais523> I still have a collection of floppy disks from when I was younger, but all the data has long since been copied into my home directory
14:35:32 <ais523> so I don't consult the disks themselves any more
14:35:39 <ais523> I also have a USB floppy drive but have only used it once, I think
14:35:49 <ais523> maybe twice
14:35:58 <b_jonas> I no longer have physical floppy disks or drives. I got rid of all of them, including the physical version of that boot floppy.
14:36:18 <ais523> b_jonas: IIRC solid is writeable, and the hole means read-only, but I might also have that backwards
14:36:56 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, that's probably the saner system because then factory-made installer disks just have the sliding tab missing entirely so you can't easily overwrite them
14:37:01 <b_jonas> by accident that is
14:37:35 <ais523> b_jonas: well you could just as easily have an entirely solid disk in that location, no tab or anything, if the opposite convention were being used
14:37:46 <b_jonas> true
14:38:13 <b_jonas> punching a hole on a thick 3.5 inch floppy might be harder than covering the hole with one of those stickers for 5 inch floppies
14:38:42 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Write_protection ... so 8" has the backward convention from 5 1/4"?
14:38:55 <int-e> That must have caused quite a few accidents.
14:39:00 <fizzie> b_jonas: I was more thinking about console game disc images, I think they're somewhat compressible sometimes.
14:39:06 <b_jonas> and of course the save icon on windows is still a floppy disk, which is becoming one of those metaphors increasingly disassociated from its origins
14:39:41 <b_jonas> oh yeah, SD cards have a physical write protect switch too, but microSD cards don't
14:39:56 <fizzie> We had a 8" floppy disk throwing competition at the university once.
14:40:00 <b_jonas> and basically all my recent SD cards are just microSD cards with adapters, because it's slightly cheaper to buy them that way
14:40:25 <ais523> int-e: I actually had a vague memory that the convention reversed at one point
14:40:31 <b_jonas> fizzie: sounds like a good way to get some use of obsolete stuff that will get discarded anyway
14:40:44 <ais523> your article says that it's 5¼ and 3½ that have opposite conventions, though
14:41:45 <b_jonas> oh yeah, audio casettes had a write protect tab to. I remember that. I no longer have audio casettes or audio casette players either.
14:42:27 <int-e> ais523: so they switched twice
14:42:27 <b_jonas> ais523: it says both: 5 inch has hole for writable; 8 inch and 3.5 inch has hole for read-only
14:42:56 <b_jonas> and audio casettes have hole for read-only too
14:44:02 <b_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk#%E2%80%8B3_1%E2%81%842-inch_disk confirms that the 3.5 inch floppies have a potential hole in the other corner indicating (some) of their format
14:45:23 <ais523> I knew audio cassettes had a hole for read-only, they used to come with tabs covering the hole that you could break off after recording if you wanted to
14:45:54 <b_jonas> also IIRC the 5 inch floppies use different formats for PC, Commodore VIC-20/64, and Amiga, on the same physical disks
14:46:23 <b_jonas> ais523: and you can insert cubes cut from rubber eraser to fill the hole
14:47:00 <b_jonas> also audio casettes also have like four physical formats, of which I've seen at least two, allowing for different quality, similar to 3.5 inch disks
14:47:39 <ais523> right, a floppy disk is basically just a magnetic surface, and formatting it magnetises it in a particular way to define areas to store data
14:48:03 <ais523> so you could change the geometry of the disk "in software" by changing things like the spacing of the tracks, locations of the sectors, etc.
14:48:22 <ais523> (although the disks typically became unreliable if you tried to format them too densely)
14:48:49 <ais523> hard drives apparently only work with one specific formatting, though, they need synchronization patterns for the drive to work
14:49:06 <ais523> and "formatting" a hard drive is actually just the creation of a filesystem, rather than the creation of the physical tracks and sectors
14:49:24 <b_jonas> for an 5 inch floppy, magnetic surface plus a physical hole that the drive can sense to find a fixed rotation angle so it can synchronize sectors to that
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14:50:06 <b_jonas> ais523: that's for newer hard drives; older ones you could also physically format, they worked rather similar to floppies with very little electronics hardware
14:50:55 <b_jonas> with most of the electronics in the hard drive controller, and most of the logic in software, specifically a ROM
14:51:13 <b_jonas> but that was before my time
14:51:28 <b_jonas> the hard disks that I used already had complicated printed circuit boards on them
14:52:42 <ais523> I think some people figured out a way to reprogram hard drive controllers to run arbitrary code
14:52:57 <ais523> (they have a "real" processor in them, the hard part is just getting the code onto it)
14:53:17 <b_jonas> that used to be a feature in the floppy disk drives for the Commodore VIC-20/64,
14:53:35 <b_jonas> with a 6502 CPU in them just as powerful as in the computer, only with rather small RAM
14:55:51 <b_jonas> I remember I was amazed when we first got a laser printer at home, a HP one, and it had a lot of megabytes of RAM built into it, perhaps 64 megabytes or something, so much that it seemed enough for a smaller PC
14:58:00 <b_jonas> I still don't know why it had that much, because it had resolution of 300 dpi, which means it can store the bitmap for a full page in one megabyte
14:59:54 <ais523> presumably there was a full PostScript interpreter on there?
15:00:07 <ais523> people don't run arbitrary code on their printers as often as they should, IMO :-P
15:03:33 <b_jonas> I don't think there was a PostScript interpreter in particular, but it did have something to allow sending graphical data well-compressed
15:03:46 <b_jonas> for reference, the model is HP LaserJet IIP
15:03:52 <b_jonas> where II is a roman numeral
15:04:33 <b_jonas> that was the era of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_LOAD_LETTER , before printers got a full dot matrix display large enough to port Doom to
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15:32:12 <ais523> I wonder if the days of word processors getting confused about the Letter vs. A4 difference are gone now, or if they're still there and it's just that I basically never use word processors nowadays
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16:32:24 <fizzie> There used to be a floppy drive controller (or several) for the PC that made it possible to use regular PC floppy drives to access a wider variety of floppy disk formats that you can using the normal interface.
16:32:40 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual_Computers_Catweasel
16:32:45 <fizzie> Friend of mine had one of those.
16:33:09 <fizzie> The Mk3 PCI card version, I think.
16:34:13 <fizzie> (From a brief web search, looks like the modern equivalent is the KryoFlux USB device.)
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18:01:37 <b_jonas> ais523: you'll have to ask americans. I think A4 won out so you usually get it as the default setting, so it's now people who actually have letter paper who'll get the problem, rather than us
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18:29:29 <kmc> I still find stuff set to A4 by default
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18:34:08 <zzo38> Did any software require a printer in order that it can make a calculation by PostScript codes while the computer is doing something else, in order to make two calculations at once?
18:35:11 <zzo38> (Of course it is only possible if it has the ability to do two way communication; some don't, but some do)
18:36:08 <esowiki> [[Seed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81624&oldid=81622 * Not applicable * (+29) How about this?
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18:37:59 <zzo38> I had idea about programmable compression format. The file would consists of a series of sections, each with a header indicating the size and flags and kind, which can be a block to load into RAM (which can also contain executable VM code) or a stream (which contains data which can be used as input to the VM code).
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19:02:10 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Umanochiocciola * New user account
19:04:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81625&oldid=81597 * Umanochiocciola * (+124) /* Introductions */
19:06:26 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81626&oldid=81625 * Ais523 * (-7) remove section formatting from an introduction, so that new introductions go in the right place
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19:12:43 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck But With Buffer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81627 * Umanochiocciola * (+418) creation
19:12:58 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck But With Buffer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81628&oldid=81627 * Umanochiocciola * (-3)
19:13:25 <fizzie> Brainfuck But With Butter.
19:14:34 <kmc> everything's better with butter
19:16:47 <fizzie> I've never had I can't believe it's not butter.
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19:25:16 <arseniiv> butter tastes good, that’s why I try to evade it as it’s also so full of fats
19:25:53 <kmc> nothing wrong with fats, in moderation
19:25:58 <arseniiv> yep
19:27:44 <arseniiv> that’s why I still eat it, and some oils, and unfortunately high-cocoa chocolate :D
19:28:31 <arseniiv> but when you use butter, you want to add another bit and yet another
19:28:57 <zzo38> Use the amount specified in the recipe, I think
19:29:01 <arseniiv> especially if the food is like a sponge and takes melted butter in
19:32:06 <zzo38> Apparently some C compilers will optimize better with *(x+y-z) than x[y-z] in some cases, and they changed that in SQLite, but then hey changed it back due to some complaint
19:33:13 <b_jonas> zzo38: what type are y and z? are they 32-bit?
19:33:57 <b_jonas> and are they signed?
19:34:23 <b_jonas> would *(x+(y-z)) work?
19:35:07 <zzo38> Let me to check.
19:37:20 <zzo38> It looks like in this case, z is a constant. I don't know what type y is, but it may be less than 32-bits
19:38:28 <zzo38> O, it is 8-bits, it looks like
19:41:14 <fizzie> That would promote to `int` for the purposes of `y-z`. I guess not in `*(x+y-z)`, where it would just be an adjustment to the pointer.
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19:46:37 <zzo38> OK, although still that seems like it should be optimized
19:49:41 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck But With Buffer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81629&oldid=81628 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2146) List commands; example; cats; format
19:50:30 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81630&oldid=81588 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32) /* B */ [[Brainfuck But With Buffer]]
19:53:06 <esowiki> [[Analytical Engine Programming Cards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81631&oldid=81504 * Quintopia * (+339) /* Babbage's design */
20:00:26 <esowiki> [[Analytical Engine Programming Cards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81632&oldid=81631 * Quintopia * (+367) /* Commands */
20:01:22 <zzo38> I don't know if it does that only on 64-bit computers or if it does that on 32-bit also.
20:01:51 <zzo38> (Actually, I don't even know if it does that on 64-bit. I have not tested it. But, maybe it does have to do with having a pointer size bigger than int size.)
20:02:03 <esowiki> [[Analytical Engine Programming Cards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81633&oldid=81632 * Quintopia * (+81) /* Babbage's design */
20:05:44 <zzo38> Even if that is the case, it shouldn't matter, since the result won't differ in this case with the type promotion
20:39:06 <esowiki> [[Analytical Engine Programming Cards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81634&oldid=81633 * Quintopia * (+1909) /* Commands */
20:41:30 <esowiki> [[Analytical Engine Programming Cards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81635&oldid=81634 * Quintopia * (+91) /* Babbage's design */
20:42:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hyperdawg * New user account
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21:16:29 <esowiki> [[Analytical Engine Programming Cards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81636&oldid=81635 * Quintopia * (+1216) /* Commands */
21:20:38 <esowiki> [[Analytical Engine Programming Cards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81637&oldid=81636 * Quintopia * (+251) /* John Walker's Assumptions */
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21:21:35 <esowiki> [[Analytical Engine Programming Cards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81638&oldid=81637 * Quintopia * (-23) /* Commands */
21:26:16 <esowiki> [[Macron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81639&oldid=81621 * Heavpoot * (+17) Undo revision 81621 by [[Special:Contributions/Ais523|Ais523]] ([[User talk:Ais523|talk]]) - undo obvious vandalism
21:35:12 <esowiki> [[Macron]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81640&oldid=81639 * Not applicable * (-17) Undo revision 81639 by [[Special:Contributions/Heavpoot|Heavpoot]] ([[User talk:Heavpoot|talk]]) [[User:Ais523]] is an admin of esolangs.org. He/she knows what they are doing.
21:39:34 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81641&oldid=79064 * B jonas * (+58) /* See also */
21:40:02 <esowiki> [[Analytical Engine Programming Cards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81642&oldid=81638 * B jonas * (+71)
21:41:07 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81643&oldid=81641 * B jonas * (-3) /* External links */ link rot
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22:57:58 <int-e> `interp c double g = 2.22507e-308L, h = strtod("2.22507e-308", NULL); fprintf(stderr, "%g %g", g, h); perror(" ");
22:58:00 <HackEso> 2.22507e-308 2.22507e-308 : Numerical result out of range
22:59:26 <int-e> that check seems a bit too tight. (Yes, DBL_MIN is a *tad* larger than 2.22507e-308)
23:16:17 <int-e> To be fair, there is a real loss of precision here, if the intent is to reproduce DBL_MIN.
23:16:22 <fizzie> Probably valid, though. C11 "If the result underflows (7.12.1), the [strtod] function returns a value whose magnitude is no greater than the smallest *normalized* positive number in the return type; whether `errno` acquires the value `ERANGE` is implementation-defined."
23:18:16 <int-e> yeah the fact that denormalized numbers exist makes this deceptive
23:20:49 <fizzie> And the 7.12.1 definition of underflow is: "The result underflows if the magnitude of the mathematical result is so small that the mathematical result cannot be represented, without extraordinary roundoff error, in an object of the specified type. Footnote 232) The term underflow here is intended to encompass both 'gradual underflow' as in IEC 60559 --"
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