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02:35:32 <zzo38> Now I write a program (included in Farbfeld Utilities) to make tartan pattern, but currenly the thread count notation described at https://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/threadcount is not yet implemented. For one thing, there are multiple RGB colours with the same alphabetic code, and I don't know what to do about that. Do you know how to do it?
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03:48:18 <esowiki> [[User:Caenbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82934&oldid=76256 * Caenbe * (-71)
03:49:36 <esowiki> [[!aBF']] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82935&oldid=82519 * Caenbe * (+52) In case this needed specifying
03:52:40 <esowiki> [[Affine Mess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82936&oldid=76074 * Caenbe * (+43) Slightly improved wording
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08:58:31 <ais523> grr, you've got me thinking about Feather again
08:58:36 <ais523> but yes, there are two main hard parts:
08:59:38 <ais523> a) it has to look like, from the point of view of any program running in the language, you can change the containing interpreter, or its interpreter, or its interpreter, etc. (this may mean retroactively inventing an extra layer of interpreters around the program, but that isn't really any harder than other source of retroactive change)
08:59:56 <ais523> b) but much more complicated, you need to avoid retroactive changes immediately creating an infinite regress
09:00:24 <ais523> by which I mean, say we add a new debug feature to the outside interpreter, the outside interpreter then replays everything it's done so far, but then it reaches the code to add the debug feature
09:01:03 <ais523> now, somehow it has to skip doing that because the feature's there already: if it did the retroactive change again, and we recalculated what that did again, it would just lead to an infinite loop and the program would never make progress
09:02:01 <ais523> and somehow, whatever technique we use to avoid the infinite regress has to work at every level of abstraction at the same time (including if the number of levels of abstraction we're simulating gets retroactively changed)
09:03:49 <ais523> oh, and because retroactive changes involve replacing an older object with a newer one, we then need to take account of the fact that the technique we're using has to deal with objects that were created by interpreters which could have been in quite a different state at the time, or have since been changed to do something entirely different, or hadn't been tracking retroactive changes that have since been made
09:04:17 <ais523> this is all the sort of thing that initially seems like it should be easy, until you write it out and realise the scale of the problem (and how difficult it will be to even just define the problem)
09:05:59 -!- ais523 has set topic: Welcome to the multinational league for esoteric programming proliferation, protection, and protestation! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D https://github.com/kspalaiologos/esologs/.
09:06:06 <ais523> there was a typo in an URL in the topic andn obody noticed
09:09:52 <esowiki> [[Feather]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82937&oldid=69966 * Ais523 * (+116) there is another Feather-related log now, so mention it here so that we can find it in the future
09:11:35 <ais523> hmm, perhaps I'm the crazy/over-optimistic one for assuming it should be easy :-D
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11:45:49 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, by retroactively change the interpreter, do you mean redo all the computations? I thought you just wanted to replace functions and classes immediately for the computations going forward, even if the program already has first-class closures and stack frames from those functions or instances of those classes, such that you replace the code but keep the associated data like closure upvalues
11:45:55 <b_jonas> and stack frame temporaries and class instance members, and the problem with that was that you get uninitialized variables that the new functions or classes expect to exist and fulfill some invariant but the old functions or classes didn't yet have.
12:02:36 <b_jonas> Maybe that's why you don't want to do that in Feather, but retroactively recompute everything.
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12:16:45 <b_jonas> But recomputing everything has its own problems. The outputs of the program might retroactively change, including error messages and prompts, and so the inputs might not make sense anymore. You'd have to rerun the entire external world too, with a time machine.
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12:31:55 <b_jonas> And apparently you don't want to just be able to change any part of the code retroactively, you want to be able to change any object retroactively, though I'm not sure what that means, but in exchange you want objects to be immutable.
12:32:05 <b_jonas> (I know that sounds silly.)
12:33:09 <b_jonas> And your primitive is changing the contents of an object retroactively, and you want to use this for changing code by changing objects that are interpreted as code?
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13:35:16 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jedgrei * New user account
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16:25:24 <esowiki> [[Affine Mess]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82938&oldid=82936 * Caenbe * (+3)
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17:59:16 <arseniiv> int-e: thanks for mentioning Recursed, will try out, and that custom pack then too, hopefully
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18:21:32 <int-e> arseniiv: heh I'm looking forward to the curses :P
18:23:35 <arseniiv> int-e: there will be ε₀ of them
18:26:23 <int-e> arseniiv: when you've counted to epsilon_0 you can proceed to well-ordering the reals
18:30:00 <shachaf> int-e: Add-on levels for Recursed?
18:31:02 <int-e> shachaf: https://recursed-ice-palace.github.io/
18:31:45 <shachaf> Yes, I saw now. I guess I shouldn't have used the question mark.
18:33:06 <int-e> I guess they didn't exist when we got into Recursed. I only discovered it because I revisted the game to finally reach 100%.
18:35:46 <int-e> (Before that I was missing 6 gems (3 amethysts, 2 rubyes, one diamond) in the Last Tapestry)
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18:37:42 <shachaf> What are the latest updates in int-e style puzzle games?
18:38:59 <int-e> That was it, really. I played Portal Reloaded which was fun too, but not all that hard.
18:39:33 <int-e> And I still have not completely expedited the monsters.
18:41:59 <shachaf> Hmm, did you play Vertebrae? https://www.puzzlescript.net/play.html?p=ce2474f62432e2a703bba3fb65f5b01f
18:42:22 <shachaf> I don't remember whether I mentioned it here.
18:47:19 <int-e> I don't think you've mentioned it. Hmm. "insert cartridge"
18:48:39 <int-e> So it works in a fresh browser profile, sigh.
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18:55:56 <int-e> shachaf: is there supposed to be more than one level?
18:58:15 <int-e> hmm, now it works? weird.
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19:01:11 <chibi> ais523: Ahh, I see now, yeah.
19:02:48 <chibi> I think I saw a paper floating around that was about reducing compiler stacks in the context of something like JVM into Python into LLVM into x86
19:04:02 <chibi> I'm not sure if that's the same sort of deal would work for a meta compiler
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19:43:02 <zzo38> What does "int-e style puzzle games" means? Have you tried to make up your own puzzle game too?
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20:01:56 <shachaf> I just mean the kind of puzzle game int-e likes.
20:03:41 <zzo38> Yes, but which kind of puzzle games would that be? How would it be described?
20:04:16 <shachaf> I'm not sure. I guess int-e is the expert, not me.
20:04:27 <zzo38> Yes, that is probably correct.
20:07:06 <int-e> shachaf: oh no, there's a fourth vertebrae
20:08:22 <int-e> zzo38: usualy turn-based, minimalistic (relying on emergent complexity instead of tricky building blocks)
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20:09:14 <int-e> somehow, block pushing is one of the most common ways to achieve that
20:10:57 <zzo38> int-e: OK. I also like turn-based puzzle games
20:10:58 <shachaf> int-e: Hmm, did you play Fidel?
20:11:22 <shachaf> It's randomly-generated rather than hand-designed puzzles, but you might like it.
20:15:56 <zzo38> Have you played Gruniozerca 3 or Gruniozerca 2? (Unfortunately, not purely turn-based, but it mostly is)
20:18:37 <int-e> hmm, now if you don't pick up the 4th vertebra and move to stage 11... do you lose?
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20:25:04 <zzo38> (I also like each level to be isolated from the others, and that you can try them in any order.)
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21:05:20 <int-e> shachaf: wee I got crushed
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21:16:01 <zzo38> Do you like that too, or don't?
21:20:35 <int-e> shachaf: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/v11.png is impossible ;)
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21:22:26 <int-e> 2 1/2 hours is enough for a game that I didn't really intend to play :P
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21:26:06 <int-e> shachaf: but it is definitely cute
21:26:38 <shachaf> I don't remember how far I got.
21:26:48 <shachaf> Apparently 11 is a popular one to get stuck on: https://twitter.com/zwegner/status/1275686437611020294
21:27:37 <int-e> Yeah (obviously?) I was kidding... somehow, most game designers don't put unsolvable puzzles into their games.
21:29:21 <int-e> Fidel, Fidel... this one? https://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/fidel-dungeon-rescue
21:31:46 <int-e> zzo38: I'm indifferent to it, it was just a new part of the game mechanics to discover.
21:32:54 <int-e> potentially relevant to the solution... well obviously you don't want to get crushed yourself... but you might crush a vertebra and benefit from it
21:32:58 <zzo38> I shouldn't want unsolvable puzzles in a puzzle game, but in other computer games, it might be suitable sometimes that some of the puzzles might be unsolvable (or puzzles where solving them makes the game unwinnable, etc).
21:33:27 <int-e> I hated the old Sierra adventure games for that :P
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21:39:17 <int-e> shachaf: Hmm, I suspect I enjoy handcrafted puzzles more... even when they have limited replay value
21:40:00 <myname> indeed. i'm having a blast with more advanced sudoku variants
21:43:51 <zzo38> Free Hero Mesh does not yet include the function to make randomly generated puzzles, although it might be something to be added in future, maybe. (For one thing, this would require knowing how the format for defining this should be working.)
21:44:47 <zzo38> (Although, it isn't for games such as sudoku anyways; for puzzles like that, should be an entirely different program to make up such puzzles with constraints of filling in the puzzle; it is a different game.)
22:20:19 <int-e> shachaf: funny, vertabrae level 7 is different on itch.io
22:28:14 <int-e> shachaf: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/v07.png (itch.io version is on the left)
22:29:23 <int-e> and may require the same trick that I failed to find on level 11 :P
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22:57:53 <arseniiv> made a small gift of Recursed to my friend, as it costs almost nothing right now
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23:02:07 <arseniiv> today was an exhausting day for my poor psyche. I struggle to sokoban my immediate surroundings into good place but it’s nigh impossible with too many knots of various kinds, social, technical, logistic. Ended up just simply dewooling a sofa of cat fur. That wasn’t immediate at all but it ended up simplest of all, as it needed just me and a brush, and not being perfectionist as that’s one of the favorite places for my cat anyway
23:03:22 <arseniiv> and it wasn’t as satisfying as fixing major things would be
23:03:30 <imode> define fixing major things.
23:03:52 <arseniiv> too many, I don’t want to force my life on you
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23:17:47 <arseniiv> in a nutshell the general story is that I was prepared for a life which doesn’t happen (their models were poor and I don’t know how they got jobs and all) and then I was left, mal-adapted, with this, and I need to change myself somehow so that I can shamelessly write my résumé finally and get a work. But I can’t and I think I might have minor depression for a year or two and I can’t clean up all the clutter in the flat becaus
23:17:47 <arseniiv> e it’s not all mine and I can’t avoid hearing TV and it depresses and angers me and I think my knowledge is shallow, and I dropped out several years ago and don’t want to return and I can’t finish my own projects to place their code somewhere and a link to the future résumé and all the things, many details, I have almost no friends in the geografic vicinity, just friends outside but they couldn’t be able to help me with stu
23:17:47 <arseniiv> ff here and all topping it off I’m blessed with great myopia right from the start and I have a little endocrynal problem which maybe fixed itself somehow but I blame my lack of motivation on it. And this damn country is bad for people in statistical tails like me. I wonder how do people with real physical deficiences live here at all but this doesn’t help my case by any means. Maybe I was just unlucky too many times, I don’t know,
23:17:47 <arseniiv> it is hard to try to plot some course and make goals and all that now. I steer away from stressful things and résumé is stressful because it should ideally be blank and who wants me with a blank one, who’s interested in my unfinished understanding of hyperbolic spaces
23:18:57 <arseniiv> imode: I don’t think it will help anyone but I tried to express what it feels all at once, though it’s not unbiased and it shouldn’t ideally be logged but I knew what I did
23:20:27 <arseniiv> I can’t even prove to myself my baseline is not good as I’m quite often cheerful, and intend to continue that, but I have to solve all that at some moment and I can’t
23:21:25 <arseniiv> all these knots is I maybe could solve thing A and thing B if I solved things C and D but they are all interdependent
23:22:48 <arseniiv> playing with abstract mathematical things is way more forgiving
23:23:30 <arseniiv> you can stow them away and they don’t mind
23:24:30 <zzo38> Why do you need to be sorry for this?
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23:31:37 <imode> yyyyikes, I thought they were in academia and at least had some kind of refuge.
23:33:30 <imode> I mean, I have myopia, and my self confidence was shot for several years.
23:36:35 <int-e> life is complicated
23:37:01 <imode> hard living life without any real-life friends.
23:42:53 <esowiki> [[FakeScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82939 * JanMakuwe * (+1815) Created page with "'''FakeScript''' is an esolang created by [[User:JanMakuwe]]. The language was meant to be relatively easy to implement for both JanMakuwe and others who don't know much about..."
23:48:34 <imode> what would thue look like with a modifiable rule store, I wonder.
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23:59:39 <esowiki> [[Struffoli]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82940&oldid=81064 * Zero player rodent * (+16)