←2021-05-23 2021-05-24 2021-05-25→ ↑2021 ↑all
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00:08:47 <esowiki> <simcop2387> b_jonas: done
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00:18:29 <esowiki> <keegan> `coins
00:18:32 <esowiki> <HackEso> ​decientcoin kolmograntcoin tmmcoin duodcoin locatcoin kuffcoin brisccoin yoteritaftgnomagarabcoin regexicoin shoussencoin mertatecoin sincoin digicoin geoboaftcoin vivatiocoin kipsiancoin ooocoin amertcoin selfcoin tatcoin
00:18:48 <esowiki> <int-e> can I has an obsoletecoin
00:19:11 <esowiki> <int-e> Oh "selfcoin" is good, somehow
00:19:33 <esowiki> <chibi> Ooh?
00:19:35 <esowiki> <chibi> `coins
00:19:37 <esowiki> <HackEso> ​kildcoin atttecoin aricoin ollecoin chalcoin procoin puzzliccoin dogcoin aubeoncoin enfingperloadskydozhleyearelycoin stacoin alagucoin rubesyzcoin moncoin circutecoin udagerocoin inlamicrecoin scocoin tincoin sarcoin
00:20:08 <esowiki> <chibi> Yeah, I'll pay in enfingperloadskydozhleyearelycoin, is that okay?
00:23:04 <esowiki> <int-e> chibi: is that the cryptocurrency equivalent of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rai_stones
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00:23:23 <esowiki> <cd> `` cat $(which coins)
00:23:24 <esowiki> <HackEso> words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g' | rainwords
00:23:34 <esowiki> <cd> huh
00:23:37 <esowiki> <cd> `` which words
00:23:38 <esowiki> <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/words
00:23:43 <esowiki> <cd> `` cat $(which words)
00:23:46 <esowiki> <HackEso> ​#!/usr/bin/perl \ use strict; use warnings; \ use v5.10; \ use open qw( :encoding(UTF-8) :std); \ use File::Basename 'dirname'; \ use Storable 'retrieve'; \ use List::Util qw(sum min); \ use Getopt::Long qw(:config gnu_getopt); \ BEGIN { \ eval { \ require Math::Random::MT::Perl; Math::Random::MT::Perl->import('rand'); \ }; \ #warn "Optional module Math::Random::MT::Perl not found.\n" if $@; \ } \ \ #constants \ my @options = qw(eng-1M
00:24:50 <esowiki> [[Whopper]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83235&oldid=83234 * Hyperdawg * (-166) /* hello world */
00:25:22 <esowiki> [[User:Hyperdawg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83236&oldid=82458 * Hyperdawg * (+14)
00:27:02 <esowiki> <fizzie> I didn't remember it was a mixture of both English and esolang names, I thought it was just the latter. Plus the -coin suffix.
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00:30:34 <esowiki> [[User talk:Truttle1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83237&oldid=81589 * Hyperdawg * (+79) /* can you make a video on my language? */ new section
00:42:11 <esowiki> <b_jonas> simcop2387: thanks
00:43:16 <esowiki> <b_jonas> int-e: Raid stones => or those million dollar bills used for some questionable banking reasons in the UK
00:44:49 <esowiki> <b_jonas> the ones that are supposedly legally valid cash and you can pay with them anywhere, but if you try everyone will know you've stolen it (or worse, counterfeited) and they'll call the police and delay the payment on that account
00:45:08 <esowiki> <b_jonas> not really weirder than some of the other UK traditions really
00:47:42 <esowiki> <b_jonas> hmm, this spam "newsletter" that I get every week, why did I just get three copies of it?
01:04:27 <esowiki> <cd> fizzie: can I have a copy of hackbot's fetch from your instance? It's being super weird and I cannot get it working for whatever reason.
01:04:58 <esowiki> <cd> specifically, multibot/multibot_cmds/lib/fetch
01:06:11 <esowiki> <fizzie> It's exactly the same file as https://github.com/fis/hackbot/blob/master/multibot_cmds/lib/fetch
01:06:32 <esowiki> <cd> <CTCP>ACTION is annoyed<CTCP>
01:06:35 <esowiki> <cd> ah well
01:07:10 <esowiki> <cd> I'll keep debugging then, was worth a shot seeing if you modified it
01:08:16 <esowiki> <fizzie> The only changes I have in the running instance from the commit in github are: in multibot_cmds/PRIVMSG/tr_60.cmd, the `ignored_nick` list is changed (I should probably add more bots to it), and the lock file is changed from "lock" to os.environ['HACKENV']+".lock"); and in multibot_cmds/lib/sandbox, the /usr/bin/umlbox path is changed and `'--env', 'LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8',` is added to the list of flags.
01:09:11 <esowiki> <cd> Yea I prodded it a bit more than that, so i'll need to remember what I changed
01:09:36 <esowiki> <fizzie> I've got a commit in the checkout in a branch called `live`, which I rebase when I make changes to the public code.
01:10:15 <esowiki> <fizzie> (So seeing what I changed is `git diff -r master -r live`.)
01:11:05 <esowiki> <fizzie> Existing languages developed for some other purposes, or languages made for that specific purpose that would still count as esolangs?
01:12:24 <esowiki> <cd> `rakudo --help
01:12:24 <esowiki> <HackEso> rakudo? No such file or directory
01:12:37 <esowiki> <cd> meh, not surprised i couldn't get Rakudo to work inside UML
01:12:40 <esowiki> <cd> it seems to dislike it aha
01:13:20 <esowiki> <fizzie> I don't think that's very common. In fact, I don't think I've heard of any examples.
01:13:45 <esowiki> <cd> yea I was quite surprised, it works fine outside UML but inside it gets upset and crashes instantly
01:14:14 <esowiki> <fizzie> That was about esolangs in video games, to be clear, not about Rakudo.
01:14:31 <esowiki> <cd> ah
01:15:16 <esowiki> <fizzie> Soni: I think there's been some discussion about whether those kind of things should count, with no clear conclusion.
01:16:03 <esowiki> <fizzie> I think someone was talking about writing an article about the TIS-100/Shenzhen/EXAPUNKS assembly languages.
01:16:34 <esowiki> <cd> my gut tells me those don't really count but I can't really say why
01:17:42 <esowiki> <fizzie> Yeah, just saying, that's when the topic of languages designed to be part of gameplay came up. Though the Minecraft context might be even closer.
01:20:21 <esowiki> <fizzie> In any case, I don't personally have anything against having articles about them, and I don't remember any particularly convincing arguments.
01:20:21 <esowiki> <b_jonas> `prefixes
01:20:21 <esowiki> <b_jonas> ^prefixes
01:20:21 <esowiki> <b_jonas> perlbot prefixes
01:20:21 <esowiki> <fizzie> There's a https://esolangs.org/wiki/Spacechem_Programming_Language page but that's very stubby.
01:20:22 <esowiki> <b_jonas> Soni: it is common to have certain games, especially sandbox simulation games, happen to grow languages that turn out to be more powerful than the creator of the game intended, in the TeXbook appendix D sense,
01:20:22 <esowiki> <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
01:20:22 <esowiki> <perlbot> b_jonas: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [purebasic] [prezses] [_purpose_0] [_purpose_1] [_purpose_2] [_purpose_3] [_purpose_4] [_purpose_5] [_purpose_6] [_purpose_7]
01:20:24 <esowiki> <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
01:20:44 <esowiki> <b_jonas> or sometimes there's an existing game that works well and the developer sees how easy it would be to add a language on top of them to add some programming capabilities
01:21:59 <esowiki> <b_jonas> the latter applies to shapez.io and Factorio, the games I've recently been playing, which deliberately have some programming as part of gameplay capabilities added into them, but as those programming capabilities are weird, they automatically become an esolang where people try to solve tasks that the languages don't make easy and come up with intersting constructions like you have to in an esolang
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01:23:19 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Yit * New user account
01:23:58 <esowiki> <b_jonas> the former applies to OpenTTD (and its ancestor TTDPatch), which originally just added pre-signals to make it possible to make better train networks, where making train networks is the orignal goal of the game, but then it turns out that trains plus presignals creates an interesting esolang with surprising constructions possible
01:24:30 <esowiki> <b_jonas> Soni: dunno, I don't particularly care about the definition question here
01:26:22 <esowiki> <b_jonas> oh yeah, minecraft. I'm not too experienced in that, but I believe that has some of those programming as gameplay capabilities too
01:26:42 <esowiki> <b_jonas> it might be the most famous example
01:26:46 <esowiki> <chibi> OpenTTD seems like the kinda game that's boring to play normally but really interesting to optimize
01:27:00 <esowiki> <chibi> I wonder if (Open)RCT2 has anything similar.
01:27:28 <esowiki> <b_jonas> chibi: yeah, there's an entire OpenTTDcoop community for that, with inscrutable internal customs and lots of scarcely documented game knowledge
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01:28:14 <esowiki> <b_jonas> they know more about OpenTTD programming than anyone else, but it's hard to learn from them
01:28:25 <esowiki> <b_jonas> luckily they have IRC presence on oftc, which helps to some extent
01:28:38 <esowiki> <b_jonas> (well, if you're the IRC kind of person, which I assume here)
01:29:27 <esowiki> <b_jonas> and of course there's some Super Mario Maker programming too, definitely esoteric but much more limited in general purpose computation capabilities than the previous examples
01:29:30 <esowiki> <chibi> Interesting, interesting. Ooh, DF comes to mind too
01:29:46 <esowiki> <cd> DF is probably turing complete in more ways than we've even found aha
01:30:05 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I'm not familiar with Dwarf Fortress programming, but I think there were some Dwarf Fortress players on this channel, there definitely are somewhere on ... um, freenode?
01:30:17 <esowiki> <cd> i'm right here
01:30:21 <esowiki> <cd> :P
01:30:37 <esowiki> <b_jonas> ah good
01:30:55 <esowiki> <cd> the most common way is mechanisms + minecarts computation
01:31:05 <esowiki> <b_jonas> feel free to ask me about shapez.io and factorio by the way. I don't know everything, obviously, but still
01:31:08 <esowiki> <cd> which is just a derivative of billard ball computation, with extra logical tools to make it compact
01:31:25 <esowiki> <cd> minecarts in their current form in fact behave like billard balls :P
01:31:50 <esowiki> <cd> usage of fluids is good for things like memory cells when you need compactness
01:32:04 <esowiki> <cd> fluids are also probably TC, but i've not seen a proof
01:32:53 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83238&oldid=83226 * Yit * (+83) adding myself
01:39:25 <esowiki> [[Shuffle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83239&oldid=50266 * Enoua5 * (+37) Update dead link
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01:44:09 <esowiki> <b_jonas> Soni: pwoerpoint is definitely one of those accidental thingies
01:44:52 <esowiki> <b_jonas> "fluids are also probably TC, but i've not seen a proof" => do you have exponential quantity of fluids with as large storage tanks? if so, just implement Waterfall
01:45:26 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I think you only need like single exponential if you do it right, but I'm not completely sure
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02:46:12 <esowiki> <salpynx> Something I discovered a few days ago: John Conway built a fluid machine https://nautil.us/blog/this-early-computer-was-based-on-a-urinal-flush-mechanism
02:46:43 <esowiki> <b_jonas> perlbot, prefixes are fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
02:46:43 <esowiki> <perlbot> b_jonas: Stored prefixes are fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
02:46:43 <esowiki> <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, madam commissioner, i do not feel it would also be an option. that is the reason why some members are left feeling slightly perplexed that they envisage an institution which is also true of the community which was only accepted when austria joined the european union
02:46:52 <esowiki> <b_jonas> perlbot prefixes
02:46:52 <esowiki> <perlbot> b_jonas: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
02:50:05 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I wonder if we should try to break this category of bot loops by making it so that when a bot like j-bot or perlbot or lambdabot prefixes the nick of the requestor to a reply, it uses a delimiter after that nick that's never accepted as a delimiter for invoking a bot, so that you can't confuse invoking a bot from a bot replying you
02:50:36 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I didn't think of that when designing j-bot's terrible interface, but now I wonder
02:50:42 <esowiki> <b_jonas> what delimiter would be useful for that?
02:51:10 <esowiki> <int-e> the usual invisibl ^O?
02:51:21 <esowiki> <int-e> +e
02:52:49 <esowiki> <int-e> lambdabot prefixes most replies with a space in an attempt to prevent this kind of thing... but perlbot is too generous in how it is addresed
02:52:59 <esowiki> <b_jonas> j-bot accepts too many delimiters in that context
02:53:04 <esowiki> <b_jonas> int-e: hmm
02:53:24 <esowiki> <int-e> s/prevent/mitigate/ is more appropriate, I guess
02:53:57 <esowiki> <int-e> and there are some exceptions, most notably @where, which this channel has abused plenty
02:54:36 <esowiki> <b_jonas> int-e: I'm more worried about the kind of botloop where two bots reply each other with a nick prefix, like xbot says "ybot: foo" then ybot says "xbot: foo" (both on channel). the hard part is starting such a loop, which usually requires a race condition, but sometimes there are other sneaky ways, and I'd rather if the bots were designed such that such a loop can't be sustained, not just can't be started.
02:54:48 <esowiki> <b_jonas> but the control-O may be a good idea
02:54:54 <esowiki> <int-e> lambdabot: @run 1
02:55:06 <esowiki> <int-e> see, lambdabot wouldn't accept that with a leading space
02:55:16 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nor does j-bot
02:55:17 <esowiki> <int-e> lambdabot: @run 1
02:55:18 <esowiki> <b_jonas> perlbot echo hi
02:55:18 <esowiki> <perlbot> b_jonas: hi
02:55:19 <esowiki> <lambdabot> 1
02:55:21 <esowiki> <b_jonas> but perlbot does
02:55:35 <esowiki> <b_jonas> so that's not foolproof
02:55:35 <esowiki> <int-e> right, hence the potential botloop with lambdabot earlier
02:55:49 <esowiki> <int-e> well, nothing will be foolproof
02:55:58 <esowiki> <b_jonas> sure
02:56:25 <esowiki> <int-e> I guess one could do the fungot thing, stop replying after 5 messages from the same nick.
02:56:25 <esowiki> <fungot> int-e: mr president, i am happy to take our entrepreneurs, investors and companies there. it will no longer exist. as this is contrary to the texts themselves. now, europe’s contribution to the work of these authorities and to establish it as a substantial step forward, but rome was not built in a day. should not we in the group quite rightly, that the complexity of the groups.
02:56:39 <esowiki> <int-e> but that would be really awful for lambdabot's ordinary use :)
02:56:49 <esowiki> <b_jonas> lambdabot @run 2
02:56:55 <esowiki> <b_jonas> lambdabot: @run 3
02:56:56 <esowiki> <lambdabot> 3
02:57:05 <esowiki> <b_jonas> lambdabot: @run 4
02:57:16 <esowiki> <b_jonas> perlbot echo 5
02:57:26 <esowiki> <b_jonas> j-bot: 6
02:57:36 <esowiki> <b_jonas> yeah, a control-O after the nick seems to work decently
02:57:57 <esowiki> <int-e> perlbot echo 5
02:58:01 <esowiki> <int-e> or before?
02:58:02 <zzo38> I think that, if a loop is detected, then perhaps NOTICE should be used for the reponse, and it should never respond to a NOTICE; if a loop continues to be detected after that, then it should ignore further messages for some amount of time, until it resets.
02:58:16 <esowiki> <int-e> prefixing with ^O is way easier...
02:59:05 <zzo38> That may work, but maybe it should be right at the beginning, rather than after the nick, I think
02:59:10 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I also have to be careful about bot loops in private message. I recall three such cases:
02:59:40 <esowiki> <b_jonas> one with buubot1 which just lets anyone ask it to send a reply in private message to anyone else, which is just plain silly;
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03:00:17 <esowiki> <b_jonas> one with j-bot which is much more relaxed (though not strictly) about invocation syntax in private message than in public, and one with bfbot which had a bug about not escaping newlines or something like that
03:00:36 <esowiki> <b_jonas> so I have to be careful about private message syntax too
03:00:51 <zzo38> Even so, if there are still loops despite ^O then something will have to be done, even though that will probably mitigate it in most cases, but not necessarily all.
03:01:00 <esowiki> <b_jonas> perhaps I should add the same nick and delimiter prefix in the reply even when I reply to a private message
03:01:37 <esowiki> <b_jonas> zzo38: sometimes sending a notice during heuristically detected potential loops is not a bad idea
03:01:49 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I'll think about it
03:02:26 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I mean, the reason why we usually don't use notice is because it annoys some people because of their broken clients, but a bot loop is probably even more annoying
03:04:13 <esowiki> <int-e> I'll remove lambdabot from the channel before I change it to use notice
03:04:58 <zzo38> Yes, that is why you might do only if a loop is detected
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03:26:04 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * BadBoyHaloCat * New user account
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03:28:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83240&oldid=83238 * BadBoyHaloCat * (+162)
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03:39:42 <esowiki> [[Feta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83241&oldid=79598 * BadBoyHaloCat * (+265)
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05:18:41 <esowiki> <nakilon> morning
05:18:58 <esowiki> <nakilon> starts with esoteric
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05:20:32 <esowiki> <nakilon> I made project euler 1 one-liner and wanted to show but realised the irc command can't pass stdin
05:57:32 <esowiki> [[Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83242&oldid=63185 * Bangyen * (+131)
06:06:07 <esowiki> <Taneb> Good morning!
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06:25:18 <esowiki> <Taneb> I do not :( I've been rather algorithm-ignorant as of late
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06:30:55 <esowiki> <Taneb> Kruskal;s algorithm is neat, though
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06:36:20 <esowiki> <Taneb> Yeah, Prim's and Kruskal's algorithm are both very greedy and get an optimal solution
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06:44:14 <esowiki> <Taneb> Perhaps you should try to find a minimal spanning tree
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06:55:43 <esowiki> <nakilon> did you neighbor just told you you can forget about the cat?
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07:08:00 <esowiki> <nakilon> woah, the gist.githubusercontent.com is cached (
07:09:14 <esowiki> <nakilon> it didn't update the /raw/ file until either ~2 minutes passed or I refreshed it in a browser with trailing '?'
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08:16:15 <esowiki> <nakilon> \help
08:16:15 <esowiki> <velik> available commands: rasel; usage help: \help <cmd>
08:16:27 <esowiki> <nakilon> \help rasel
08:16:27 <esowiki> <velik> \rasel <RASEL code>; \rasel -stdin <any char><stdin><same char><RASEL code>; timelimit=60s; https://esolangs.org/wiki/RASEL
08:16:48 <esowiki> <nakilon> \rasel "!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Gj
08:16:49 <esowiki> <velik> nakilon, output: "Hello, World!", exit code: 0
08:17:04 <esowiki> <nakilon> \rasel -stdin |1 2 3|& .& .& .@
08:17:05 <esowiki> <velik> nakilon, output: "1 2 3 ", exit code: 0
08:17:31 <esowiki> <nakilon> \rasel -stdin 10 &\:5\?#j$--.@1-::3%\5%/7\?#j$\2a-
08:17:32 <esowiki> <velik> nakilon, output: "23 ", exit code: 0
08:17:38 <esowiki> <nakilon> \rasel -stdin 1000 &\:5\?#j$--.@1-::3%\5%/7\?#j$\2a-
08:17:40 <esowiki> <velik> nakilon, output: "233168 ", exit code: 0
08:18:10 <esowiki> <nakilon> and this is the project euler 1
08:19:35 <esowiki> <nakilon> used b_jonas idea about one-liners with 'j'
08:20:24 <esowiki> <nakilon> that is <N>\?#j$
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08:22:57 <esowiki> <nakilon> oh, btw, I was wrong about the prefix -- it appends with "nickname, output: " -- I'll probably change it
08:25:21 <esowiki> <nakilon> \rasel -stdin 1000 &\:5\?#j$--.@1-::3%\5%/7\?#j$\2a-
08:25:24 <esowiki> <velik> output: "233168 ", exit code: 0
08:43:34 <esowiki> <nakilon> is there no easy way to link to a specific wiki page section?
08:44:51 <esowiki> <nakilon> oh, the links seem to exist and can be copied from the "Table of contents" but if TOC isn't added to page then I see no way
08:45:06 <esowiki> <nakilon> when you hover on the subtitle it doesn't show up anything
08:47:13 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: just read the page source to find the anchor names. I do that for a lot of websites that do have anchors or id attributes but not tables of contents linking to them.
08:48:22 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: or preview an edit where you add __TOC__ at the start to get the anchor name
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08:50:30 <esowiki> <nakilon> sounds "easy"
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09:00:11 <esowiki> [[RASEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83243&oldid=81013 * Nakilon * (+445) telling that you can join the IRC channel and ask velik to execute the code
09:00:56 <esowiki> <b_jonas> it's a plain HTML website with proper anchor names for each section. be glad for that. don't you browse any of the modern nonsense web, all dynamic and unusable?
09:03:19 <esowiki> <nakilon> I don't actually )
09:03:36 <esowiki> <nakilon> I use news via RSS and use old.reddit.com
09:03:42 <esowiki> <nakilon> *read news
09:05:10 <esowiki> <nakilon> and I suppose the hover anchor appearance does not need JS, only CSS
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09:12:53 <esowiki> <myname> b_jonas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemini_space
09:15:24 <esowiki> [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83244&oldid=83243 * Nakilon * (-3) /* Nth Fibonacci number */
09:26:47 <esowiki> [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83245&oldid=83244 * Nakilon * (+3) Undo revision 83244 by [[Special:Contributions/Nakilon|Nakilon]] ([[User talk:Nakilon|talk]])
09:34:48 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ch44d * New user account
09:46:40 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83246&oldid=83240 * Ch44d * (+128) Hello, I am Chad!
09:47:02 <esowiki> <b_jonas> perlbot 0B4mraAVZJEF
09:47:03 <esowiki> <perlbot> b_jonas: aKNSSrw8EjpI
09:50:07 <esowiki> [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83247&oldid=83245 * Nakilon * (-6) shorter Fibonacci
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10:05:25 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Aonodensetsu * New user account
10:08:55 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Morganbarrett * New user account
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10:12:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83248&oldid=83246 * Aonodensetsu * (+194)
10:18:53 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83249&oldid=83248 * Morganbarrett * (+150)
10:19:03 <esowiki> [[User:Morganbarrett]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83250 * Morganbarrett * (+0) Created blank page
10:25:16 <esowiki> [[User:Aonodensetsu]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83251 * Aonodensetsu * (+135) Created page with "[[Category: 2021]] This is a stub of my personal page, hello to all that visited! Esolangs published: While(true){ (currently editing)"
10:25:34 <esowiki> [[User:Aonodensetsu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83252&oldid=83251 * Aonodensetsu * (+2)
10:26:12 <esowiki> [[User:Aonodensetsu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83253&oldid=83252 * Aonodensetsu * (+6)
10:42:14 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cypooos * New user account
10:47:07 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83254&oldid=83249 * Cypooos * (+212) Added my introduction !
10:49:49 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83255&oldid=78526 * Morganbarrett * (+296)
10:51:18 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83256&oldid=83255 * Morganbarrett * (+11)
10:52:36 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83257 * Aonodensetsu * (+251) Created page with "[[Category:2021]] [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:High-level]] [[Category:Implemented]] [[Category:Self-modifying]] [[Category:Cell-based]] Category:Linear bounded automat..."
10:53:19 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83258&oldid=83209 * Aonodensetsu * (+18)
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10:58:00 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83259&oldid=83257 * Aonodensetsu * (+346)
10:59:02 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83260&oldid=83259 * Aonodensetsu * (+955)
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10:59:56 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83261&oldid=83260 * Aonodensetsu * (+20)
11:00:42 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83262&oldid=83261 * Aonodensetsu * (+523)
11:01:50 <esowiki> <nakilon> should we have an "Esoteric IRC bots" category?
11:02:10 <esowiki> <nakilon> I see at least 4 such pages
11:02:19 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83263&oldid=83262 * Aonodensetsu * (+7)
11:08:41 <esowiki> <fizzie> There's 10 bots (some not currently active) listed on https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal with 7 of them having articles.
11:08:49 <esowiki> <fizzie> Not sure if it needs a category though.
11:09:15 <esowiki> <fizzie> There's a process for categories that's documented somewhere on there, if you want.
11:09:16 <esowiki> <int-e> category:IRC
11:10:00 <esowiki> <int-e> (my feeling is that the IRC bots are too narrow a category. IRC though, might just be broad enough to be worthwhile)
11:10:37 <esowiki> <fizzie> Hmm, that'd be taggable on IRP too.
11:11:46 <esowiki> <fizzie> I don't think it falls under any of the established dimensions of categorization, but there's already a few miscellaneous ones.
11:12:10 <esowiki> <fizzie> In any case, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Categorization is where this discussion should be happening, as a matter of policy. :)
11:12:37 <esowiki> <fizzie> (That talk page could do with some archiving of inactive topics at some point, maybe.)
11:12:43 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17/Arbitrary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83264&oldid=83101 * Int-e * (+1) pluralize (there is no Language category)
11:13:52 <esowiki> <fizzie> If you're doing spring cleaning, "Category:stupid family" probably shouldn't exist.
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11:14:33 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83265&oldid=83263 * Aonodensetsu * (+59)
11:15:13 <esowiki> [[Birb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83266&oldid=82033 * Int-e * (+2) category: Theoretical -> Unimplemented
11:17:01 <esowiki> <int-e> fizzie: ah, that has 2 members. I only checked the ones with 1 member and no existing category page.
11:17:22 <esowiki> <int-e> Because those are usually typos/miscategorizations
11:17:36 <esowiki> <fizzie> Yeah, I think that one's intentional, but still not good.
11:18:09 <esowiki> <int-e> Yeah I agree.
11:18:12 <esowiki> <fizzie> Out of curiosity, how do those bottom navigation tables on the real wiki work? Are they category-driven, or something else? Because that's the sort of thing you could plausibly have on an IRC bot page...
11:18:18 <esowiki> <int-e> We also have two empty categories with page
11:19:43 <esowiki> <fizzie> (I guess they're just templates maybe.)
11:21:18 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83267&oldid=83265 * Aonodensetsu * (+44)
11:21:24 <esowiki> <nakilon> fungot is in category People, lol
11:21:25 <esowiki> <fungot> nakilon: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of my colleagues, but sooner or later) this must be recognized that in some member states are interpreting the text in this case it concerns a particularly grave and important issue that we have not just government ministers coming from their national administrations. the parliamentary democracy that led the commission to negotiate on the details, we are coming to the same
11:21:41 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83268&oldid=83267 * Aonodensetsu * (+4)
11:22:07 <esowiki> <Taneb> fizzie: hmm, I always assumed they were templates
11:22:32 <esowiki> <fizzie> Taneb: Yeah, there was a tiny "view template" link in a corner, now that I actually looked closely at one.
11:22:41 <esowiki> <Taneb> e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Italy_in_the_Eurovision_Song_Contest
11:22:41 <esowiki> <fizzie> Templates based on a "Navbox" template, it looked like.
11:23:10 <esowiki> <fizzie> ... the one I was looking was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Eurovision_Song_Contest ...
11:23:12 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83269&oldid=83268 * Aonodensetsu * (-21)
11:23:47 <esowiki> <fizzie> (Getting to sixth place and beating Sweden has been a big thing back home.)
11:24:41 <esowiki> <Taneb> My partner's Italian and their city is in the running for host next year, so we're going to try to attend in person
11:24:49 <esowiki> <Taneb> I guess it's a recent event that's on both of our minds
11:25:02 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83270&oldid=82103 * Nakilon * (+452) /* I propose the category "Esoteric IRC bots" */ new section
11:25:10 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83271&oldid=83269 * Aonodensetsu * (+26)
11:25:48 <esowiki> <fizzie> On that note, is there any way of getting those navboxes on m.wikipedia? Because it's been real annoying when browsing 'pedia on the phone.
11:25:59 <esowiki> <fizzie> Especially when you know a page would have one, and it would have exactly the link you need.
11:26:11 <esowiki> [[User:Aonodensetsu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83272&oldid=83253 * Aonodensetsu * (+16)
11:26:23 <esowiki> [[User:Aonodensetsu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83273&oldid=83272 * Aonodensetsu * (+0)
11:26:51 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83274&oldid=83258 * Aonodensetsu * (+13)
11:27:38 <esowiki> [[User:Aonodensetsu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83275&oldid=83273 * Aonodensetsu * (-7)
11:27:41 <esowiki> <Taneb> "Templates using the navbox (navbox) or nomobile (sidebar) classes are not displayed on the mobile web site of English Wikipedia" :(
11:27:45 <esowiki> <Taneb> (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Navbox )
11:29:06 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83276&oldid=83271 * Aonodensetsu * (+2)
11:30:11 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83277&oldid=83276 * Aonodensetsu * (+101)
11:32:19 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83278&oldid=83277 * Aonodensetsu * (-6)
11:33:05 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83279&oldid=83278 * Aonodensetsu * (-28)
11:35:00 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83280&oldid=83279 * Aonodensetsu * (+127)
11:36:11 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83281&oldid=83280 * Aonodensetsu * (+177)
11:36:37 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83282&oldid=83281 * Aonodensetsu * (+0)
11:36:56 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83283&oldid=83282 * Aonodensetsu * (-4)
11:37:52 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83284&oldid=83283 * Aonodensetsu * (+12)
11:38:05 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83285&oldid=83284 * Aonodensetsu * (+0)
11:38:30 <esowiki> [[DotSnap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83286&oldid=83219 * Nooder Coob * (-1094) Blanked the page
11:39:08 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83287&oldid=83285 * Aonodensetsu * (+2)
11:39:42 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83288&oldid=83287 * Aonodensetsu * (-6)
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11:43:57 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83289&oldid=83288 * Aonodensetsu * (+2475)
11:45:09 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83290&oldid=83289 * Aonodensetsu * (+46)
11:46:32 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83291&oldid=83290 * Aonodensetsu * (+79)
11:46:51 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83292&oldid=83291 * Aonodensetsu * (+3) /* How to define a function? */
11:47:02 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83293&oldid=83292 * Aonodensetsu * (+0) /* How to define a function? */
11:48:37 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83294&oldid=83293 * Aonodensetsu * (-36) /* Naming of functions */
11:48:46 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83295&oldid=83294 * Aonodensetsu * (-3) /* Naming of functions */
11:49:25 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83296&oldid=83295 * Aonodensetsu * (+64) /* Naming of functions */
11:49:49 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83297&oldid=83296 * Aonodensetsu * (-22) /* Undefined functions */
11:49:58 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83298&oldid=83297 * Aonodensetsu * (-22) /* Why CALL? */
11:50:37 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83299&oldid=83298 * Aonodensetsu * (+3) /* Why LOOK? */
11:50:56 <esowiki> <int-e> sigh, microedits
11:52:09 <esowiki> <nakilon> that's a while(true)
11:52:27 <esowiki> <int-e> fizzie: Germany, meanwhile, still hasn't managed to get that coveted last place... hard to do when your competitor gets a perfect score.
11:52:50 <esowiki> <nakilon> oh that's a guy with [Category: 2021]
11:53:09 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83300&oldid=83299 * Aonodensetsu * (+334) /* Why LOOK? */
11:53:28 <esowiki> <fizzie> int-e: The BBC narration during the vote-counting was a bit painful to listen to.
11:53:41 <esowiki> <int-e> I won't listen to it then :)
11:54:06 <esowiki> <int-e> (if it can even be found... I suppose it can)
11:54:38 <esowiki> <fizzie> I'm sure it's in the "iPlayer" (BBC's online thing), though I guess it might be geo-restricted.
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11:54:42 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83301&oldid=83300 * Aonodensetsu * (+11) /* Why LOOK? */
11:54:50 <esowiki> <fizzie> Especially the part where "we" (I don't know which country is "we" at this point) got 0 from the public vote as well.
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11:55:24 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83302&oldid=83301 * Aonodensetsu * (+31) /* Conditional jumps? */
11:55:26 <esowiki> <int-e> fizzie: 0 is an achievement: https://nitter.fdn.fr/ariadneconill/status/1396035169828675585#m
11:56:47 <esowiki> <fizzie> I watched the bad-bitrate iPlayer stream because I keep forgetting the cheap DVB stick I have for RTL-SDR reasons can actually do it's nominal job too.
11:56:58 <esowiki> <fizzie> Not sure if the subjective quality of DVB-T is any better though.
11:57:07 <esowiki> <nakilon> that website makes an awful google translate job
11:57:35 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83303&oldid=83302 * Aonodensetsu * (+13) /* Conditional jumps? */
11:57:54 <esowiki> <int-e> nakilon: huh?
11:58:05 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83304&oldid=83303 * Aonodensetsu * (+1) /* What can we do with this? */
11:58:13 <esowiki> <nakilon> int-e it detects my location and writes in Russian
11:58:32 <esowiki> <nakilon> the mail-tester.com
11:58:36 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83305&oldid=83304 * Aonodensetsu * (-72) /* What can we do with this? */
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11:58:41 <esowiki> <int-e> nakilon: ah, nasty. it's english for me... maybe it's parsing the HTTP language preferences?
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11:59:18 <esowiki> <int-e> (if it was geo location based, it would be german for me)
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11:59:48 <esowiki> <nakilon> maybe browser language, yeah
11:59:52 <esowiki> <int-e> it would also be in contradiction to what nitter is supposed to be... non-JS, non-tracking.
12:00:25 <esowiki> <nakilon> locale is in my request headers
12:01:18 <esowiki> <int-e> nakilon: you can replace the nitter.fdn.fr by twitter.com
12:02:16 <esowiki> <nakilon> I mean the https://www.mail-tester.com/test-kxlo1dgf7 link
12:03:06 <esowiki> <nakilon> nitter is in eng for me
12:04:41 -!- metcalf has quit (Quit: metcalf).
12:04:48 <esowiki> <int-e> nakilon: Oh. Hmm. But that was in english too when I tried.
12:04:55 -!- metcalf has joined.
12:05:02 <esowiki> <int-e> But I withdraw the rest of the remarks then
12:05:08 <esowiki> <nakilon> ..D
12:06:12 <esowiki> <int-e> I did manage to get a 0.7 score on first try though... HELO mail didn't work out well: no reverse DNS, and failed SPF check, both worth -4 points each.
12:06:22 <esowiki> <nakilon> Accept-Language: ru,en-US;q=0.9,en;q=0.8,uk;q=0.7
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12:07:00 <esowiki> <int-e> Then -1 for not doing DKIM, and -0.3 because my test mail looked a bit like spam. Fun :)
12:07:17 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83306&oldid=83305 * Aonodensetsu * (+93)
12:07:52 <esowiki> <nakilon> they are doing a clever thing
12:08:20 <esowiki> <nakilon> they make you send an email to the address that they associate with your browser cookies/fingerprint
12:08:31 <esowiki> <int-e> yes, I know
12:08:33 <esowiki> <nakilon> basically deanon
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12:09:44 <esowiki> <fizzie> I should send one of those esolangs.org wiki password recovery emails there, I'm sure it'd score quite badly too.
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12:10:21 <esowiki> <int-e> nakilon: (my) cookies are ephemeral at least :P
12:11:14 <esowiki> <nakilon> and the field is empty if you curl
12:11:24 <esowiki> <int-e> but mostly... I'm not really expecting all that much privacy from browsing the web.
12:11:43 <esowiki> <int-e> nakilon: yes, they had all opportunities for fingerprinting the browser that they need
12:11:49 <esowiki> <int-e> <CTCP>ACTION shrugs<CTCP>
12:12:11 <esowiki> <int-e> after the third test, they ask for payment, so there's some hope that *that* is their primary business model
12:12:34 <esowiki> <int-e> (it's rate limited, 3 free tests per day)
12:12:45 <esowiki> <nakilon> my ISP recently mailed everyone with a link to a service to "test your password"
12:13:00 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83307&oldid=83306 * Aonodensetsu * (-13)
12:13:05 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83308&oldid=83307 * Aonodensetsu * (-34)
12:13:09 <esowiki> <int-e> ugh, was that genuine or spam?
12:13:23 <esowiki> <int-e> . o O ( I test my password every time I log in! )
12:13:35 <esowiki> <nakilon> idk, some another website that "check if your password is leaked"
12:14:12 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83309&oldid=83308 * Aonodensetsu * (+72) /* Implementation */
12:14:20 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83310&oldid=83309 * Aonodensetsu * (+1) /* External resources */
12:14:33 <esowiki> <int-e> > 48/60 -- 80% is quite impressive
12:14:35 <esowiki> <lambdabot> 0.8
12:15:06 <esowiki> <nakilon> I live in a totally new building where there is only one monopolist ISP so they are free to have higher internet price and send absolute trash emails
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12:15:37 <esowiki> <int-e> (users here vs. users there, so take that % with a lot of salt)
12:16:19 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83311&oldid=83310 * Aonodensetsu * (+42) /* External resources */
12:16:33 <esowiki> <int-e> fun :-/
12:17:19 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83312&oldid=83311 * Aonodensetsu * (-96) /* External resources */
12:17:27 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83313&oldid=83312 * Aonodensetsu * (-2) /* External resources */
12:17:41 <esowiki> <nakilon> usual 100 mbit/s internet in Moscow costs $6, here it's almost $8
12:19:58 <esowiki> <nakilon> and sometimes it routes weirdly, like there were several months of connecting to Finland game servers via France resulting in 3 times higher ping
12:20:28 <esowiki> <nakilon> support said "we can't do anything about this, the internet is magic beyond our responsibilities"
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12:41:52 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83314&oldid=83313 * Aonodensetsu * (-54) /* Why LOOK? */
12:53:13 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83315&oldid=83314 * Aonodensetsu * (+2)
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13:20:49 <esowiki> <Deewiant> As all the discussion is here now perhaps the /topic on freenode should be updated to point thisaway?
13:22:02 <esowiki> <cd> Deewiant: the admins over there literally made that against the rules
13:22:11 <esowiki> <cd> so best we can do is prod people over the bridge
13:22:33 <esowiki> <Deewiant> Ah, wonderful
13:31:40 <esowiki> <fizzie> Yeah, I read about that ##hntop thing.
13:32:47 <esowiki> <fizzie> I don't know if I'd describe it as "against the rules", the ("draft") policy just says approximately that channels "that have moved" can be claimed by anyone.
13:33:29 <esowiki> <fizzie> I'd maybe still be a bit wary about putting something in topic specifically, maybe that's how they look for victims.
13:34:31 <esowiki> <fizzie> We could make it official on the wiki, I was kind of considering doing that once our proper community registration goes through. (Still no reply, but I imagine there's quite a queue. Our ticket number is in the 500-600 range.)
13:39:38 <esowiki> <int-e> Well, rules...
13:40:38 <esowiki> <int-e> I think we should add a reference to the topic anyway; if Freenode takes over the channel for that so be it.
13:40:46 <esowiki> <cd> We had ticket #44 and it took quite a while
13:41:11 <esowiki> <cd> int-e: why risk fragmenting the community like that. They’d likely kickban the bridge bot too
13:41:21 <esowiki> <fizzie> Oh, I guess it's also against the rules ("inappropriate advertising") to have "unused channels for the purpose of polluting the channel list results".
13:41:29 <esowiki> <int-e> because the bridge will stop being useful
13:42:42 <esowiki> <int-e> (a bit too early for ignores, but I will do that eventually.
13:46:17 <esowiki> <int-e> fizzie: Honestly that one is a bit more understandable. The rule lawyer in me suggests +s
13:50:07 <esowiki> [[Cythan]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83316 * Cypooos * (+6373) Created the page
13:51:03 <esowiki> <fizzie> I wonder how many people have found the channel by listing, anyway. Probably not a huge fraction.
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13:57:40 <esowiki> <nakilon> I have a feel that "random read and push" is less powerful than "random write and pop"
14:00:47 <esowiki> <nakilon> without random write once the task becomes complex enough (involves several variables) it makes RASEL stack grow infinitely, like the Fibonacci[n] case does in my example
14:01:39 <esowiki> <nakilon> or am I missing some solution
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14:15:53 <esowiki> [[Cythan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83317&oldid=83316 * Cypooos * (+155) Correcting some mistakes
14:16:38 <esowiki> <nakilon> or should I finally stop resisting and add random write to RASEL
14:17:34 <esowiki> <int-e> fizzie: I don't recall whether it was one of the (now defunct) mailing lists, or a discussion elsewhere on IRC...
14:17:41 <esowiki> <int-e> but probably not the wiki
14:23:07 <esowiki> <nakilon> I could make the "reverse N top elements on stack" command that can be used as both random read and write
14:23:14 <esowiki> <nakilon> and I feel like I saw some language with it
14:25:14 <esowiki> <Taneb> nakilon: Piet has something a bit like that
14:26:08 <esowiki> <nakilon> actually wiki search re veal a plenty of such
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14:28:25 <esowiki> [[Cythan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83318&oldid=83317 * Cypooos * (+168) Added the Categories
14:30:28 <esowiki> <nakilon> hmmm maybe the assumption that "reverse N top elements" can be used for random read and write was too fast
14:30:51 <esowiki> <b_jonas> "<fizzie> We could make it official on the wiki" => if you do that, also switch over what the logs default to on your logs web interface, because I feel like that's part of what makes it official
14:31:20 <esowiki> <nakilon> once you do the reverse you lose the access to all the top values that you were working with
14:33:35 <esowiki> <Taneb> fizzie: queue a couple of days ago was 220 project registrations in the backlog https://twitter.com/liberachat/status/1396029243101007873
14:38:09 <esowiki> [[BALAE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83319&oldid=82560 * WallGraffiti * (+505) Added examples + corrected descriptions of "{" and "}" operators.
14:38:28 <esowiki> <nakilon> okay, I imagine the read(N) now: reverse(N), dup, reverse(N+1), reverse(N-1), reverse(N) -- 5 operations, can it be shorter?
14:39:15 <esowiki> <b_jonas> eventually we will have to speed up redirecting everyone by just making the freenode channel invite only and kicking everyone, but for now it probalby helps more if people see a bridge
14:39:29 <esowiki> <b_jonas> not everyone is on irc every day, there are new people who won't have heard of the freenode drama for years
14:42:50 <esowiki> [[Cythan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83320&oldid=83318 * Cypooos * (+2) Correcting mistakes
14:43:37 <esowiki> <fizzie> The new logs web interface -- https://logs.esolangs.org/ -- doesn't really default to either. I was going to make https://esolangs.org/logs/... URLs to forward to the freenode logs to keep old permalinks working, but the plain /logs/ path with no file specified I could point arbitrarily.
14:43:49 <esowiki> [[Cythan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83321&oldid=83320 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-8) /* Resources */ Fix link
14:43:50 <esowiki> <fizzie> This would also be probably the best chance to change the permalink syntax not require anchor names to be case-sensitive, if we want to. IIRC, the spec says they *are* case-sensitive, but (pre-Edge?) IE didn't treat them as such, so `#la` was the same as `#lA`. But maybe that's no longer so relevant.
14:44:15 <esowiki> <fizzie> Base 62 is a little more compact than base 36 would be.
14:47:54 <esowiki> <nakilon> now write(N,top): rotate(N), rotate(N+1), swap, pop, rotate(N) -- 5 operations too
14:48:04 <esowiki> <nakilon> and N should be static in both cases
14:48:10 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83322&oldid=83315 * Aonodensetsu * (+291)
14:48:20 <esowiki> <nakilon> (that's the limitation I don't like)
14:48:40 <esowiki> <b_jonas> oh, https://logs.esolangs.org/ is the new interface? ok
14:48:56 <esowiki> <nakilon> wait, odd number of rotations, heh, missed something
14:49:46 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: pre-edge IE is dying out though, isn't it?
14:50:02 <esowiki> [[Cythan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83323&oldid=83321 * Cypooos * (+0) Correcting some mistakes
14:50:54 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: there doesn't seem to be an easy link from https://esolangs.org/logs/all.html back to the top or to the other channel's logs
14:51:46 <esowiki> <fizzie> Re pre-Edge IE, probably. I feel like oerjan's the only one who ever noticed those links didn't work on some browser.
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14:53:15 <esowiki> <int-e> nakilon: write is only 3 steps, rotate(N+1), pop, rotate(N-1)
14:53:17 <esowiki> <fizzie> I've not made any changes to the version running at /logs/ so it won't know the other channel exists. As for getting back to the top, yeah; though logs/ is the same page as logs/YYYY.html of the current year, so clicking on the year gives you the same view.
14:53:52 <esowiki> <fizzie> In the new thing, I can do some changes to integrate them a little better. Haven't yet, though.
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14:55:53 <esowiki> <fizzie> What I *have* changed so far is to put the top announcement and the bottom about text into the configuration file rather than a `constexpr char[]` variable, so I can change them without recompiling. ;)
14:56:16 <esowiki> <fizzie> (And of course the ability to serve from more than one root.)
14:56:19 <esowiki> <nakilon> int-e true
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15:05:38 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83324&oldid=83322 * Aonodensetsu * (+3) /* How do you know this is Turing-complete? */
15:06:02 <esowiki> <nakilon> so the bad thing is that N has too be static or you'll lose it immediately on the first rotate, so I'm now thinking about another operation instead -- swap(N) that swaps the top element with the Nth one
15:06:57 <esowiki> <nakilon> the write(N) then is trivial, but read(N) is complex and as far as I can imagine relies on write(N)
15:11:32 <esowiki> <nakilon> so assuming the stack is [... 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, X, N] to put the X to Nth position under it would be the: swapn, pop
15:12:22 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83325&oldid=83324 * Aonodensetsu * (+59)
15:12:40 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83326&oldid=83325 * Aonodensetsu * (+1) /* How do you know this is Turing-complete? (WIP as apparently it needs to be the EXTENDED conjecture) */
15:14:29 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: also that explains why someone mentioned wikia and their tactic of "no, you can't edit the nethack.wikia.org front page to say that https://nethackwiki.com/ is a more up to date more actively maintained fork of the wiki
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15:14:55 <esowiki> <b_jonas> hey, it looks like https://nethack.wikia.org/ is deleted! what happened?
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15:16:06 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I mean it would actually started to have become useful right now, when a lot of nostalgic folks might think that Nethack 3.4.3 is the one true canonical version and perhaps not every page on the wiki should be updated to reflect the 3.6 branch changes because now it's harder to find reliable info about 3.4.3
15:16:33 <esowiki> <b_jonas> though perhaps that nostalgic target audience wouldn't go to wikia anyway
15:18:25 <esowiki> <Taneb> I should actually learn to play NetHack one day
15:18:46 <esowiki> <Taneb> I've tried a few times but I've not been patient enough to do any well at it
15:19:06 <esowiki> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83327&oldid=83326 * Aonodensetsu * (-140)
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15:20:08 <esowiki> <b_jonas> Taneb: there were some IRC channels on freenode that could help you in that
15:20:44 <esowiki> <Taneb> b_jonas: sadly I am no longer on Freenode
15:20:56 <esowiki> <Taneb> Perhaps there may be some IRC channels elsewhere soon
15:21:22 <esowiki> <b_jonas> Taneb: yes, and I don't know where those IRC chnanels are right now, and they might not know yet too
15:21:46 <esowiki> <b_jonas> but there will probably still be an IRC presence in the long term
15:21:48 <esowiki> <Taneb> There's a note at the top of https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Freenode that may provide a hint
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15:24:33 <esowiki> <Taneb> I think I'll give NetHack another go this evening
15:25:17 <esowiki> <fizzie> I've been hanging around on the #nethack channel (formerly on freenode, now here), but I don't know if there's usually that much learning going on in there.
15:25:26 <esowiki> <fizzie> Which isn't to say you wouldn't get answers if you asked a question.
15:26:20 <esowiki> <fizzie> I use it mostly to watch Rodney's announcements of games on NAO every now and then, because sometimes the deaths can be quite amusing.
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15:27:06 <esowiki> <nakilon> now if it's [... 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, N] to read the Nth position under it would be: dup, dup, dup, 2, +, swapn, dup, 3, swapn, swap, 1, +, swapn, pop
15:27:07 <esowiki> <fizzie> "killed by a wolf, while taking off clothes" and so on.
15:27:37 <esowiki> <nakilon> lol, 14 operations to for random write with this swapn operator
15:27:40 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: some of it has moved to other channels... let me look up the name
15:27:56 <esowiki> <nakilon> I mean for random read
15:28:02 <esowiki> <b_jonas> freenode/#hardfought
15:28:21 <esowiki> <b_jonas> also some of the learning is concentrated in the two months with big nethack competitions
15:28:25 <esowiki> <b_jonas> (online obviously)
15:29:01 <esowiki> <nakilon> why nethack if there is dcss
15:29:54 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: I'd recommend adding a primitive that pops an index, then swaps the top of stack with an element deep in the stack with that index. that's probably the easiest and simplest thing you can add that guarantees to solve both the random access problem and the problem that you don't have extra registers and can't easily permute the top of stack
15:30:11 <esowiki> <fizzie> If your name is Jack, and one of your hobbies is listening to music, and you usually do it with headphones, would you consider "Headphone Jack" as a nickname? These are the kind of things I think about when plugging in headphones for a meeting.
15:30:31 <esowiki> <fizzie> "Who's that? Oh, that's Headphone Jack."
15:30:44 <esowiki> <nakilon> b_jonas that's exactly the swapn I was using just now
15:31:30 <esowiki> <nakilon> and it resulted in 2 operations for random write and somehow the whole 14 for random read
15:32:05 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: ah good
15:32:54 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: if you want to make the code shorter, I'd just add a handful of named registers with load and store instructions
15:33:00 <esowiki> <b_jonas> one-byte ones of course
15:33:23 <esowiki> <b_jonas> though you may also have a point about no easy way to write numbers larger than 9 or 15 or whatever it is
15:33:31 <esowiki> <b_jonas> if that turns out to be a problem, add an instruction for that
15:33:52 <esowiki> <nakilon> adding registers has the problem that there is no defined amount of how many registers you need
15:33:59 <esowiki> <b_jonas> or, I dunno, why do I care about rasel anyway? I don't have any reason
15:34:10 <esowiki> <nakilon> adding two will solve "half" of problems, then you'll need 3 for another 1/4, etc,
15:34:22 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: seven registers. it's seven.
15:34:37 <esowiki> <b_jonas> so 14 instructions for them
15:35:38 <esowiki> <nakilon> that would be dc
15:45:44 <esowiki> <nakilon> I think that'll be it; deprecating random read 'a', introducing random top-swap 's'; with static N it would be not 14 operations but just a few: 0, N, swapn, dup, N+1, swapn, pop
15:49:00 <esowiki> <int-e> the swapn of evil
15:49:01 <esowiki> <nakilon> then the fibonacci will no longer be memory-leaking
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15:51:53 <esowiki> <nakilon> I could even then deprecate '\' in favor of '0s'
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15:52:40 <esowiki> <nakilon> or just redefine the '\' to also always pop a N
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15:58:36 <esowiki> <b_jonas> hehe "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_(sports)#Ice_hockey" "The NHL no longer permits the use of 0 or 00 as the League's database cannot list players with such numbers"
15:59:43 <esowiki> <nakilon> b_jonas why care -- because its specification is shorter than befunge while more full, and it's installable with one command )
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16:06:36 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: you really should add a link from to the other channel, it would be a helpful way to advertise the move to people
16:07:24 <esowiki> <b_jonas> especially since the policies on the old network might cause a problem with the bridge: you probably have to advertise that there's a bridge to a public place the same as you advertise that you have a public log, but you might not be able to do that without advertising the move
16:11:31 <esowiki> <fizzie> Yeah. Well, I hope I'll get the stalker/lurker/stream mode fixed in a day or two, at which point I'll have the previous single-channel URL redirect to the new multi-channel one, and can also add some links to the latter.
16:12:41 <esowiki> <b_jonas> thanks
16:14:47 <esowiki> [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83328&oldid=83232 * Oshaboy * (+91) Added Categories
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16:37:51 <esowiki> <b_jonas> we'll also have to summon kspalaiologos because they might want to modify their logbot, and I don't even know who makes the tunes.org logs
16:53:47 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Alpha2 * New user account
16:56:20 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83329&oldid=83254 * Alpha2 * (+228)
17:00:38 <esowiki> <MrAureliusR> I wrote my first Whitespace program today
17:00:47 <esowiki> <MrAureliusR> It's hard to find an editor that doesn't clobber things
17:03:12 <esowiki> <fizzie> There's at least one Vim thing to syntax-highlgiht Whitespace, I assume it would also tweak the other settings correctly.
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17:23:10 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RanibowSprimkle64 * New user account
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17:30:22 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83330&oldid=83329 * RanibowSprimkle64 * (+305)
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17:55:48 <esowiki> [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83331&oldid=83328 * Tux1 * (+83)
18:00:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tux1 * uploaded "[[File:4bod example.png]]": An example of a program written for the 4BOD fantasy console. This program draws a 2x2 square in the middle of the screen.
18:05:00 <esowiki> [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83333&oldid=83331 * Tux1 * (+32) added image
18:11:18 <esowiki> <nakilon> so what's the policy about channel squatting? I wanna squat a company channel that is big enough on freenode but they are just idling and not coming here yet
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18:14:39 <esowiki> <int-e> For now I don't think there's any problem unless another claim for the same channel comes along. In the medium term, this whole #/## business will probably need sorting out :/
18:14:55 <esowiki> <nakilon> ah ok, "... a channel belonging to a project you are _authorized to represent_", nvm then
18:15:10 <esowiki> <nakilon> the "chanserv help claim"
18:15:23 <esowiki> <fizzie> int-e: Two sigils and three separate namespaces is kind of an odd combination. :)
18:15:55 <esowiki> <int-e> Hah
18:16:21 <esowiki> <int-e> Let's see the linux developers (linux project) get into a fight with the linux users (community) over #linux
18:16:30 <esowiki> <int-e> fungot: popcorn?
18:16:31 <esowiki> <fungot> int-e: let me try to be brief. that being so, i am very surprised to see the light.
18:16:40 <esowiki> <int-e> that was surprisingly brief
18:16:42 <esowiki> <int-e> ^stule
18:16:50 <esowiki> <int-e> ^style
18:16:50 <esowiki> <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
18:17:21 <esowiki> <nakilon> the channel I want is #gcloud -- it's the same dead as their thousands users large Slack team
18:18:26 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: also it has to be on topic, which basically means related to a free software project
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18:18:57 <esowiki> <nakilon> their SDK are free software I guess
18:19:10 <esowiki> <fizzie> Also "projects/companies of general interest to our user base", which might cover technologies like that.
18:19:19 <esowiki> <b_jonas> int-e: no way. linux developers don't use IRC. they communicate only by emailed formatted patches.
18:19:25 <esowiki> [[User:RanibowSprimkle64]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83334 * RanibowSprimkle64 * (+792) Created page with "This is the description of my first programming language, if it isn't formatted well or more information is needed, let me know, I don't know how to forum at all, really... L..."
18:19:59 <esowiki> <int-e> b_jonas: there goes my entertainment for the evening
18:21:38 <esowiki> <nakilon> we can generate a fake mailing list website from this channel log
18:21:58 <esowiki> <nakilon> using nickname mentions to follow the threads, etc.
18:22:42 <esowiki> <nakilon> and every message will become a cached page in webarchive
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18:31:50 <esowiki> [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83335&oldid=83333 * Tux1 * (+38)
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18:45:02 <esowiki> <arseniiv> hi
18:48:11 <esowiki> [[Cythan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83336&oldid=83323 * Cypooos * (+13) Correcting generality difference between the mathematical definition and the implementation
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19:22:47 <zzo38> Are there alternatives to Language Server Protocol?
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19:34:17 <fizzie> I feel like clangd predated LSP and had a (C-specific) protocol of its own in the past, but (a) I may be wrong about that, and (b) in any case it no longer does.
19:34:59 <fizzie> Google's Kythe project has a protocol that I think is in somewhat in the same space, but not quite the same thing.
19:35:18 <fizzie> Those are the only two things that come to mind; I don't know of anything that'd have the same goals as LSP.
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20:09:53 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Algj * New user account
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21:03:45 <esowiki> [[Capuirequiem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83337&oldid=65570 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+373) Amended some orthographic mistakes and reformulated a few parts.
21:04:38 <esowiki> [[User:Hyperdawg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83338&oldid=83236 * Hyperdawg * (+46)
21:10:18 <zzo38> Also, I don't know if LSP has the way to specify the character encoding of the source file; I could not find any when looking at the documentation.
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21:12:34 <esowiki> <cd> it may assume UTF-9
21:12:36 <esowiki> <cd> *UTF-8
21:12:43 <esowiki> <cd> which makes sense 99.99% of the time tbf
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21:15:48 <zzo38> Approximately, yes, but sometimes it is different, and this may be specified inside of the file itself. (Although ASCII is very common, and UTF-8 is a superset of ASCII, so this will usually work both for ASCII and for UTF-8. It is also necessary to ensure that the byte order mark is omitted if the program doesn't expect it)
21:16:09 <esowiki> <b_jonas> no no, it's always the national characterset of the region where the game is commercially sold, the only one that's in the character ROM of the console where it's played. how could it be anything else? then you'd need some sort of translation layer from the text to what you can actually display.
21:20:08 <zzo38> Sometimes it may be. However, in those cases, I would expect hopefully some way to detect it, either in the file itself or in something external. (For text files, this may be either a comment or some directive; for binary files the region code might be specified in the header, perhaps, if executing it depends on the region code. For NES/Famicom there is no console character ROM, but for other computers it may be.)
21:22:29 <esowiki> <b_jonas> detect? no, you don't detect it. if you put it into the console in the wrong region, some characters will show up as nonsense, which doesn't matter because the player couldn't read foreign language anyway. at worst some of the corner line drawing characters would show up silly too. and if it's a very different region, it won't even work because of NTSC versus PAL or different shape of the cartridge
21:22:35 <esowiki> <b_jonas> interface.
21:23:12 <zzo38> (NES/Famicom does have region coding, but for emulation it is generally sufficient to distinguish between NTSC and PAL. For actual cartridges, the cartridge itself is physically different between NES and Famicom; the NES cartridge doesn't have expansion audio.)
21:26:38 <esowiki> <b_jonas> and the japanese NES has some games on floppy instead of a cart, so that's a third incompatible format, even if they're both NTSC
21:27:03 <zzo38> However, NES/Famicom doesn't have any ROM inside the console, so the character encoding is not a problem here.
21:29:07 <esowiki> <b_jonas> yes, it worked the same way then as now: they make the console cheapest as possible, even if that means they have to duplicate character ROM, RAM expansion, and sometimes even more stuff in each cartridge
21:29:17 <esowiki> <b_jonas> ok, not quite
21:29:22 <esowiki> <b_jonas> back then they actually made the hardware cheap
21:29:40 <esowiki> <b_jonas> now they're just selling it cheap and selling the games expensive, it's not that the games come on carts with expensive extra hardware
21:30:14 <zzo38> Yes, there is the Famicom Disk System. However, that uses a special cartridge. (I have never seen any emulator though that allows you to load multiple BIOS images and to load another disk image file without resetting)
21:31:12 <esowiki> <b_jonas> zzo38: surely emulators on home PC consoles like the Commodore 64, which have built-in ROM and expansion cards, support that
21:33:15 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, but I mean NES/Famicom emulators specifically
21:34:05 <esowiki> <b_jonas> do they emulate crazy cartridge swapping realtime speedruns, or speedruns where people put their console on a hot plate or cause deliberate hardware errors in other ways? :-)
21:34:18 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I mean the NES probably isn't the most common console for that
21:35:18 <zzo38> Some stuff in the cartridge can also be used to customize the hardware for different games, which is sometimes helpful. The small amount of RAM in the console is not usually an advantage, although I have designed a mapper to take advantage of the RAM mirroring in order to improve bankswitching speed; this is a kind of simpler way than implementing read-back in the cartridge
21:37:56 <zzo38> (For example, if $1000-$1FFF, $3000-$3FFF, $5000-$5FFF, and $7000-$7FFF are all mapped to the bank switching register, then you can write to $1050 and it bankswitches, later write to $1051 for another bank, and later, read $1050 to switch the bank back to the first one (no need to write). This requires less logic in the cartridge, too.)
21:40:09 <zzo38> (You can also read/write the same memory at $0050 and $0051, without causing the bank switching. In this case, you might, for example, save the data for switching the bank later, or read it back without switching.)
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22:20:34 <esowiki> <b_jonas> `? towel
22:20:36 <esowiki> <HackEso> towel? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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22:35:43 <esowiki> <fizzie> A hopefully quick blip in the bot situation.
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22:41:26 <esowiki> <fizzie> It's quite a house of cards.
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23:31:23 <esowiki> [[Point]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83339&oldid=74588 * Unlimiter * (-17)
23:35:44 <esowiki> [[Point]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83340&oldid=83339 * Unlimiter * (+3) /* In-depth */
23:36:49 <esowiki> [[Point]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83341&oldid=83340 * Unlimiter * (+1) /* Countdown */
23:38:45 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83342&oldid=83341 * Unlimiter * (-77)
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