> 1622419632 947481 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83722&oldid=83707 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+61) 10Make better title
> 1622420023 932987 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83723&oldid=83722 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+301) 10.
> 1622420151 189333 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<salpynx> :(  I have just realised my WIP omega-word language that was meant to be sub-TC and in the category of FSM + some strange but still limited infinite extension is a super set of oracle machines pretty much by definition, so is apparently super-TC
> 1622420240 751209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<salpynx> at least, unlike other haha-halting problems langs on the wiki, this thing can at least implement and play real low level FSMs with minimal syntax.
> 1622420337 356376 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> shachaf: but isn't it like you have two ways to find repeats, the slow and fast movement that Pollard traditionally uses and the values with a hash ending in zero that you traditionally use for finding hash collisions, but in theory you can use either for a prime factoring algorithm similar to Pollard or for finding hash collisions?
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> 1622422253 943595 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> why not? just hash the points and distinguish them if the hash is low enough
> 1622422266 140927 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> I could be wrong here
> 1622422292 596190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> I have implemented Pollard rho prime decomposition once but don't quite remember how it works, and hash collision finding very few times
> 1622423305 748780 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> oh! yes, that's how Pollard worked
> 1622423310 247959 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> then what I said is stupid
> 1622423318 170947 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> sorry
> 1622423361 890590 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> anyway, I have a very different programming question
> 1622423521 484965 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> you know how in C++ or rust, you can use constructors and destructors to implement an interface for reference-counted smart pointers such that they automatically increment the refcount when you copy the pointer and decrement it when you get rid of it
> 1622423530 932013 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> this works well and is proven technology
> 1622423659 136892 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> you can also do something similar, but not quite the same, for a garbage collector. there the problem is that the collector has to be able to access not only structure on your heap but also your local variables on the stack. there are two methods for this: conservative garbage collectors that just scan the stack and assume that any word might be a pointer, in which case they have to be able to validate 
> 1622423665 187850 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> what numbers are valid pointers, and normal ones where you have to keep track of which variables are pointers
> 1622423767 851919 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> my question is, how much harder does such a natural interface get between moving/generational garbage collectors compared to garbage collectors where the pointer value never has to change? I have seen two interfaces for moving garbage collectors: the one in Lua where you can effectively only store pointers only on the Lua stack and you have to index them, and the mzscheme one that I haven't looked at 
> 1622423773 893399 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> for a long time and can't remember how it works
> 1622423919 235441 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> ghc has a garbage collector too, but no proper interface for extensions where they can easily own pointers. they can create stable pointers, or store pointers in normal haskell algebraic type values, but neither is really convenient from C code.
> 1622423988 949434 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> ruby 1.6 has a conservative garbage collector so you can just use plain pointers, as long as you don't try xor trick on them or store them anywhere other than on ruby's heap or the stack
> 1622424015 793469 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> I don't know if recent ruby 2 still has that
> 1622424023 785200 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> they have changed a lot of details about the core
> 1622424056 146249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> well, they also changed a lot about the language
> 1622424127 413361 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> perl uses refcounting of course
> 1622424318 801659 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> ah yes, tortoise and hare, that's what it's called!
> 1622424367 25494 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> shachaf: dunno but it's probably not worth because if you want something more complex than pollard, there are much faster prime factoring algorithms these days
> 1622424647 731198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> hmm, I wrote a pollard rho prime factorizer for the Sharp EL-5120 calculator, but I can't find it in my records of EL-5120 programs. but then, I wrote way more programs for that than I have records for, in particular I have written a rudimentary minesweeper program that I don't have the source code for.
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> 1622424788 771471 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> also a program that implements McCulloch's 2nd machine, but that's sort of useless because it only handles values up to between 10 and 12 digits long (12 digit should work I think, but I'm not sure, because there's some peculiar behavior that makes anything longer than 10 digits hard to handle, specifically if you subtract two numbers and the exponent of the result would be ten orders of magnitude less 
> 1622424794 781794 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> than the inputs than the result is forcibly zero, even though there are two significant digits that the operation could return)
> 1622425466 313062 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> I do have the source of my two trial division prime factorization programs for the EL-5120, and they're called FELB.4+ and FELB.5 so they aren't the first such programs that I wrote
> 1622425475 975828 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> I don't know why I don't have the pollard one preserved
> 1622425517 405253 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> ISTR that was by far the best prime factorizer I wrote for that calculator
> 1622425559 930294 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> unless perhaps this FELB.5 is a Pollard program and I just have no idea how it works
> 1622425589 937177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> but that seems unlikely because I'm pretty sure "if =fpart(V/Wgoto 5;if =fpart(V/(W+2goto 5;W=W+6" is trial division
> 1622425697 196302 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> apart form the two factorizers, I have a quadratic equation solver and the maze game
> 1622425793 453291 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Salpynx/Galveston14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83724&oldid=83667 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+3441) 10/* Computational class */ musings, trying to classify this thing
> 1622426299 318339 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> int-e: TAOCP might answer that about the history
> 1622426689 829070 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83725&oldid=83723 5* 03ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) 5* (+136) 10
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> 1622430334 448554 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<zzo38> Is there a video codec for making screenshots of computer programs including games with 2D graphics?
> 1622430365 254882 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<keegan> why should a special codec be needed?
> 1622430756 43230 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<keegan> i see. so you want a lossless video codec? those exist
> 1622430911 655677 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<keegan> or you want it to be lossy but in a different way? that's trickier
> 1622431072 868843 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<nakilon> zzo38 "video" codec for making "screenshots"? I guess ffmpeg can make png screenshots in a loop
> 1622431115 478151 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<nakilon> since when does #esolangs learned to make screenshots in png though
> 1622431166 84080 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<keegan> int-e: good idea
> 1622431182 117989 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<keegan> I'm sure someone has already made tools to record and play back VNC streams
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> 1622433720 609521 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<zzo38> Yes I did mean copying rectangles can be very useful, possibly also fonts, icons, etc that may reappear in another frame later after it is absent for some frames, or multiples of the same icon or font, too
> 1622434715 767602 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Doridian 5*  10New user account
> 1622435121 923682 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83726&oldid=83702 5* 03Doridian 5* (+195) 10
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> 1622437861 901424 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Channeler14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83727 5* 03Doridian 5* (+4890) 10Created page with "'''Channeler''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:Doridian]]. It is based around the idea of messaging channels (essentially function calls).  '''Chann..."
> 1622439726 964975 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Channeler14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83728&oldid=83727 5* 03Doridian 5* (+4) 10
> 1622440127 818973 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<pikhq> shachaf: i'll have a feud about screenshots wherever i feel like tyvm
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> 1622441264 502932 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Salpynx/Galveston14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83729&oldid=83724 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+338) 10/* External resources */ something I need to finish reading. Good because it talks about more than just accepting automata
> 1622441775 483515 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Line14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83730&oldid=83716 5* 03ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) 5* (+34) 10/* Conditional turn */
> 1622441888 281938 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Line14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83731&oldid=83730 5* 03ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) 5* (+156) 10/* Brainfuck compatibility */
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> 1622444782 805121 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Line14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83732&oldid=83731 5* 03ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) 5* (+62) 10Recategorization
> 1622447565 796239 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> shachaf: rabbits are bred for eating. we don't eat their eggs or milk, they don't pull carts or herd sheep or guard your house, their hide isn't too useful either. there's a limit on how cute you want an animal like that to be, above that people wouldn't be willing to eat them.
> 1622447773 221360 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Line14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83733 5* 03ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) 5* (+122) 10Created page with "==Crossover== The multiplication program mentioned signal crossover. Could you tell me how it works? <pre> |  -+-  |</pre>"
> 1622447950 539442 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Line14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83734&oldid=83732 5* 03ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) 5* (+41) 10Recategorization
> 1622447951 403274 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> whereas we don't eat cats, they're bred to hunt rats and other pest animals. and I guess that's the evolutional reason why they offer you animals that they hunt: that lets the breeders actually evaluate how successful each cat is in at hunting. either that, or the egyptian gods did give some rewards for sacrificing lots of very low XP animals.
> 1622447993 933044 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ais523> zzo38: there's https://wiki.multimedia.cx/index.php?title=DosBox_Capture_Codec which was designed for making video recordings of 2D video game gameplay
> 1622448017 513102 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ais523> the format seems to have a few shortcomings, but it's supported widely enough that you can, e.g., upload a ZMBV-encoded video to YouTube and it understands it
> 1622448034 921342 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ais523> (and it replays in my computer's video player, too)
> 1622448162 182128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ais523> I think it would be possible to do better using some sort of sprite+background encoding, like most 2D computer games actually use
> 1622448172 653991 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ais523> for communicating with the graphics card
> 1622448524 472962 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Line14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83735&oldid=83733 5* 03Relt 5* (+119) 10
> 1622449401 957059 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Line14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83736&oldid=83734 5* 03Relt 5* (-225) 10
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> 1622461754 773276 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fizzie> b_jonas: I don't think it's likely true, but a cat book suggested the thing about bringing you little offerings (often half-alive) is because they've noticed you kind of suck at the hunting part, and are trying to sort of get you started.
> 1622463553 593994 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<arseniiv> :D
> 1622463743 534658 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83737&oldid=83725 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+11) 10/* OK */ /* OK */
> 1622463845 311698 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83738&oldid=83737 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+76) 10/* OK */ /* OK */ /* OK */
> 1622463874 243890 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83739&oldid=83738 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+23) 10;
> 1622466016 291409 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<nakilon> now I wonder about rabbit milk
> 1622466720 298970 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<nakilon> looks like there is not only nitter for twitter written in nim but also invidious for youtube written in crystal
> 1622466826 411265 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<nakilon> chrome doesn't open https://nitter.net/
> 1622466998 793331 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<nakilon> and since "As of September 1st 2020, invidio.us has closed down" looks like there is no other domain that would be always up according to https://stats.uptimerobot.com/89VnzSKAn (those green are just mirror lists)
> 1622467061 744969 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Line14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83740&oldid=83735 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+68) 10Unsigned
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> 1622467560 558983 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<nakilon> someone should make an instance that would consume APIs of all those instances rotating them when they are down
> 1622467756 458326 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<nakilon> also two days ago I've learned there is RSS in Youtube
> 1622467829 839471 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Arcane 5*  10New user account
> 1622468089 493471 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83741&oldid=83726 5* 03Arcane 5* (+167) 10/* Introductions */
> 1622468119 682506 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Arcane14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83742 5* 03Arcane 5* (+12) 10Created page with "Hello There!"
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> 1622468390 569016 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fizzie> fungot: You okay in there? 
> 1622468390 670965 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fungot> fizzie: i think it was
> 1622468394 649457 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fizzie> Sounds good.
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> 1622468573 549718 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<hanif> ^style
> 1622468573 633667 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
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> 1622470744 540175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<nakilon> how are styles being added?
> 1622470760 277759 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<nakilon> there should be a Terry A. Davis style
> 1622470877 131819 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<nakilon> I see some mention in repo but  I see no examples in it, I guess it's a server configuration
> 1622470882 226047 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<arseniiv> nakilon: fizzie markov-chains a corpus in an unspecified way and then feeds it to fungot through a big alchemical funnel. I didn’t say anything
> 1622470882 429805 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fungot> arseniiv: they are? i see a wiki as a collaborative enterprise when quality emerges out of iterative editing by various contributors. it's not like i'm going to an oriental philosophy class, only in a very very subset of) bf.
> 1622471241 3124 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<nakilon> arseniiv damn mages
> 1622471241 3234 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fizzie> The *process* itself isn't unspecified, it's all defined step-by-step in https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/varikn/readme.txt
> 1622471241 3290 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fungot> fizzie: there have been some problem in my c/ c++ compiled scheme would integrate much better with an expression that the evaluator just needs to know what is a explorbation?
> 1622473206 823274 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<nakilon> the only quotes list I've found contains 177 and it does not contain random ones that I find elsewhere (
> 1622473320 235058 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fizzie> The department VariKN is from, which I think at the time was probably the Department of Information and Computer Science at the Helsinki University of Technology, but both of those names have changed since then.
> 1622473346 563380 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fizzie> http://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/quotes is what `quote looks at in.
> 1622473348 650975 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fizzie> Off for a bit.
> 1622473425 337859 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<nakilon> I mean terry's quotes
> 1622473475 190514 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83743&oldid=82781 5* 03Tux1 5* (+374) 10
> 1622473770 699211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Channeler14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83744&oldid=83728 5* 03Doridian 5* (+430) 10Add memory cell specifications
> 1622474429 581930 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<nakilon> the second most annoying bug that I can't do anything about is in Github repo Insights tab the Network tab doesn't show the tree until you refresh the page
> 1622474505 694335 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<nakilon> it's been years already and is not my local problem because I started seeing it on machine in the office
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> 1622482084 996300 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<nakilon> "I only maintain the accursed thing, I don't actually read it. " (c) Chris Pressey about Trefunge-98
> 1622482104 29100 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<nakilon> *Trefunge-98 specification
> 1622482271 457042 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> fizzie: yes, that's the traditional explanation (giving you food as an offer of friendship and to help you). nor is that exclusive with the evolutionary perspective really.
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> 1622482428 828759 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> nakilon: .pl is a confusing extension that means either perl or prolog. you can use .pm as extension for your perl files instead if that's confusing. pascal does not use .pl extension.
> 1622484367 484388 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fizzie> Pascal uses .pas, was it? 
> 1622484398 439910 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07NDBall14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83745&oldid=82580 5* 03Tux1 5* (-136) 10
> 1622484445 73225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07NDBall14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83746&oldid=83745 5* 03Tux1 5* (+0) 10
> 1622484485 603816 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07NDBall14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83747&oldid=83746 5* 03Tux1 5* (+1) 10/* First Method: Point */
> 1622484636 59599 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:100.1.142.13614]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83748 5* 03Hypocritical 5* (+5) 10Created page with "hello"
> 1622484850 423459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> fizzie: yes, usually
> 1622484862 735856 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Channeler14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83749&oldid=83744 5* 03Doridian 5* (+287) 10Add lowercase h for numeric channels
> 1622485050 295730 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Channeler14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83750&oldid=83749 5* 03Doridian 5* (-281) 10Remove jump opcode, not in the spirit of this really
> 1622485496 533730 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83751&oldid=75210 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+142) 10/*  1  */
> 1622485601 581626 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<nakilon> I don't see an article on this one https://github.com/Property404/hdbf
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> 1622487689 188014 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Channeler14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83752&oldid=83750 5* 03Doridian 5* (+98) 10Forgot documenting pow
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> 1622490351 169502 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fizzie> 20:41 !irc.invalid pounce is GPLv3 fwee softwawe ^w^  code is avaiwable fwom https://git.causal.agency/pounce
> 1622490354 569248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fizzie> I'm potentially having some second doubts about this bouncer, but maybe I'll still give it a go.
> 1622490366 888798 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fizzie> (Trying to migrate away from bip.)
> 1622490445 872617 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83754&oldid=83708 5* 03Aspwil 5* (+8) 10/* Non-alphabetic */
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> 1622492289 56683 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<oren> pʰ
> 1622492513 504091 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Channeler14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83758&oldid=83752 5* 03Doridian 5* (+0) 10Fix wrong channel name
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> 1622494527 715515 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Loris redstone 5*  10New user account
> 1622494600 795530 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83762&oldid=83741 5* 03Loris redstone 5* (+38) 10
> 1622495899 936265 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> thinking about petri nets.
> 1622496947 364679 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<Taneb> imode: petri nets are neat
> 1622497274 856803 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> they are. but they're pretty limited.
< 1622497333 557569 :oren!~oren@ec2-34-239-129-109.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh my god, I  just want the CSS incantation for "centred horizontally but aligned to the pixel grid so its not blurry"
< 1622497387 383430 :oren!~oren@ec2-34-239-129-109.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :-moz-stop-blurring-my-text: yes;
> 1622497434 801810 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<oren> oh neat it gets echoed to here
> 1622498470 158238 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> what would an analogue to the pi calculus as the turing machine is to lambda calculus?
> 1622499085 849017 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<river> nondeterministic turing machine maybe?
> 1622499510 679967 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<arseniiv> something with many submachines interacting?..
> 1622499604 313503 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> it's interesting that there's no direct analogue.
> 1622499610 111674 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<arseniiv> though like in a normal TM, all the lambdas don’t correspond to anything specially defined inside it, then maybe π processes shouldn’t give submachines too
> 1622499639 319089 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<arseniiv> maybe register machines or other formalisms would pave the way more easily?
> 1622499696 119514 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<arseniiv> and then it might become obvious if there’s a natural Turing-like analogy and then what it is
> 1622499718 426145 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<zzo38> I think that objects (including text) should always be drawn aligned to the pixel grid, regardless of the CSS. Non-blurry text should be the user setting, probably.
> 1622499726 519579 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> I was thinking in that sense. but encoding data structures in register machines is tedious.
> 1622499742 18223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> and rather computationally expensive.
> 1622499806 294458 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<arseniiv> tried generative art through SVG and Python with package svgwrite to lessen boilerplate. Made some fractal-y thing though not too interesting
> 1622499862 37713 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<arseniiv> imode: that’s why I came up with generalized Minsky machines wink wink
> 1622499888 381818 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<arseniiv> okay I’m going to sleep
> 1622499900 854707 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> lol.
> 1622499936 405665 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> sweet dreams.
> 1622499959 205279 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<arseniiv> (but seriously. using terms represented as trees should be not as expensive as reparsing natural numbers)
> 1622499960 965333 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<arseniiv> thanks
> 1622500011 874619 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> I've been trying to figure out what constitutes a model of "mobile agents", where there are some "places" that pieces of self-contained code can move between in order to interact with their local environment.
> 1622500111 885273 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> but there's this separation between the "places" that things exist at and the processes that are actually moving between them.
> 1622500198 997215 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> the processes need some kind of behavior, and a way to interact with their surrounding environment, but this means that the behavior of the process (its state) is all munged along a barrier that separates the inside of the process from the outside.
> 1622500290 674571 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> imo "places" and "agents" should probably be the same kind of thing. but then you deal with the idea of communication between them, and all that other jazz, and it gets confusing, because you need multiple different rules that govern the inside and outside of agents.
> 1622500341 830713 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<zzo38> In Magic: the Gathering, the text box may include ability text, flavor text, ability words, and reminder text; only the ability text is the part of the AST. What might be useful is also "descriptive text", which is not ability text but describes either some part of the AST which cannot easily be represented otherwise (e.g. if the mana cost or subtypes won't fit in those spaces) or something external to the game which normally affects it
> 1622500418 137156 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<zzo38> Descriptive text is not a characteristic-defining ability, is not the "text box" part of the AST, and applies before anything else; it might define part of the card's initial text.
> 1622500461 547859 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> I guess my thinking is that the process/place split is inelegant because what goes on inside a process is not an extension of what goes on outside a process, and vice versa.
> 1622500465 230664 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<zzo38> They wanted to reprint a card with a color indicator which is all five, but they didn't know how to do that and decided to write an ability to add that instead.
> 1622500507 821997 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<zzo38> Another way would to be draw all five color indicators, but if that won't fit, then this idea (I don't know how it would be formatted) would make it so without being errata.
> 1622500988 601079 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> I have a feeling that the ideas I'm thinking of lie somewhere within dataflow models, state machines, and ring networks, but I can't prove it.
> 1622501072 374400 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<salpynx> if you mean abstract spaces, the agents would 'extrude' the topology they inhabit by the possible relationships they have with each other.
> 1622501112 344023 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> right, but there always needs to be some kind of static background to determine what connections/relationships are possible.
> 1622501115 34814 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<salpynx> ('extrude' is probably the wrong word, what is the term?) The topology would emerge from their behaviour
> 1622501124 429315 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> generative communication.
> 1622501178 553235 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> I imagine that at any point, where agents know and understand how to communicate with one another, there's a certain configuration of agents laid against a static background.
> 1622501204 811364 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> where that background contains the topology for all possible connections. in situations where all agents can communicate with eachother, you have the complete graph.
> 1622501207 264294 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<salpynx> you could have dummy agents that enforce some particular structure and are just there to route
> 1622501214 997359 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> yup.
> 1622501261 785779 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> but what those agents are made of, their behavior, that's an entirely separate "theory" from how they behave and interact at the macro-scale.
> 1622501272 272501 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> it's like taking a look inside a cell vs. how that cell interacts with others. it's two separate models.
> 1622501278 958322 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> unifying it into one is difficult.
> 1622501445 654200 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<salpynx> if you mean physical places, that's set by your hardware configuration, and you just have to accept that :)
> 1622501466 452600 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> nah. you're aiming for a model of computation.
> 1622501480 536891 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> abstract ones.
> 1622501494 661099 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> the rules for an agent moving around on a network are separate from the ones that allow an agent to compute things.
> 1622501518 896482 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Channeler14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83763&oldid=83761 5* 03Doridian 5* (-25) 10Actually error on invalid ops
> 1622501519 184582 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> I guess the best analogy would be... if I shift to the left at a particular point on a turing machine tape, I end up in another "place".
> 1622501535 76360 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<salpynx> sounds like is an addressing problem? How to locate = how to address?
> 1622501537 71923 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> say another computer over the network. but it'd be a logical place.
> 1622501565 573395 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> your program needs to travel along some topology to interact with another program and then carry some result back, for example.
> 1622501613 639630 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> what does your program carry on its back. nothing? then you'll have to leave your state "on the ground", per se, and come back to it at a particular point.
> 1622501687 114368 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> "travel in direction X until you see a box Y. then, pick up the box and head the opposite of direction X until you reach the place you started. put the box down and repeat."
> 1622501691 735383 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> hm.
> 1622501738 534978 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<salpynx> In another tab I'm looking into the Cantor pairing function, to fold 2d coords into 1d, and was going to extend that to higher dimensions, each folded down... was wondering if there are other mappings to fold down dimensions
> 1622501758 726096 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> space-filling curves are probably what you're looking for.
> 1622501900 388491 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<salpynx> comments above reminded me I was going to check whether that hdbf (hyperdimensional bf) link nakilon posted earlier had a sensible and consistent topology, i.e could you loop in an arbitrary 2d plane and end up in the same place.
> 1622501943 54288 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<salpynx> hdby also made me wonder how you could 'order' dimensions, to incr and decr dimension in any kind of objective order
> 1622501947 494503 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<salpynx> hdbf
> 1622502042 523472 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<nakilon> IIRC salpynx https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/4f78by/hyperdimensional_brainfuck_brainfuck_with/ this thread also had two links to other brainfuck variations
> 1622502094 80182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Channeler14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83764&oldid=83763 5* 03Doridian 5* (+6) 10Fix comments to say more than just space is allowed for int termination
> 1622502159 226617 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> ohh yeah.
> 1622502171 144467 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> interdimensional travel lmao.
> 1622502222 954180 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<salpynx> navigating on an arbitrary graph is nice because you don't have to worry about how many dimensions there are, as many as you need, but the problem is then you can't model using any predefined knowledge about what to expect if you move in a particular path
> 1622502237 560988 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83765&oldid=83756 5* 03Doridian 5* (+16) 10Add Channeler to language list
> 1622502268 959474 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> yeah.. the complexity explodes.
> 1622502302 412579 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Program Number System14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83766 5* 03Aspwil 5* (+1903) 10Created page with "'''Program Number System''' or PNS is a system designed by ~~~ to take every useable program in a language and turn it into a unique number, that can then be converted back. t..."
> 1622502385 531804 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<salpynx> ... unless your edges are labelled with some kind of indicator of pre-defined notation, so there's a sub graph with a fixed and well defined topology
> 1622502413 6914 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> which at that point, why not go the reverse and embed whatever graph you want within a static topology.
> 1622502413 459016 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Aspwil14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83767&oldid=77508 5* 03Aspwil 5* (+88) 10
> 1622502548 946779 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Program Number System14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83768&oldid=83766 5* 03Aspwil 5* (+29) 10
> 1622502567 309440 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<salpynx> I wonder if you can get the agents to fill in the gaps and find more direct routes by adding intermediate nodes, they can fill in the gaps and resolve inconsistencies?
> 1622502620 703242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<salpynx> Get the agents to decide if it's a ring or a hypercube or whatever, so you don't have to!
> 1622502744 263682 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> that's kind of the idea! the trick is picking a background. I figure something like a ring is good enough, but you have to push the power of calculating that curve onto the agents themselves.
> 1622502847 713910 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Channeler14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83769&oldid=83764 5* 03Doridian 5* (+182) 10Add better cat program
> 1622502867 705762 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Channeler14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83770&oldid=83769 5* 03Doridian 5* (+7) 10
> 1622503085 952592 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Channeler14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83771&oldid=83770 5* 03Doridian 5* (+46) 10
> 1622503159 801545 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<salpynx> If agents could have any number of undirected labelled and directed (next, previous + id  tag ) labelled edges you could create any topology, just with the optional notation of next, previous, and room for tagged dimensions, as well as 'wormhole' connections that bypass static topologies, then the network could sort itself out, resolve ambiguities,
> 1622503160 315900 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<salpynx> and try optimisations
> 1622503201 530147 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<salpynx> .. if you had some clever rules
> 1622503446 863529 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<salpynx> hmm, all the agents would have to understand that the arbitrarily tagged 'dimension' x had evolved into a ring to use it consistently -- where would they store that knowledge, and how to share it, in order to make it consistent?
> 1622503544 38588 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> ding.
> 1622503585 328228 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<salpynx> agents need to be able to model their environment, if you want them to modify their environment, explore it, and make community decisions to improve it, you're getting into AI territory
> 1622503596 10810 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Program Number System14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83772&oldid=83768 5* 03Aspwil 5* (+687) 10
> 1622503654 579596 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<salpynx> That'll be why static topologies are good for dumb agents
> 1622503846 249630 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> if you pick a singular topology, I guarantee you there will be some kind of gradient related to how much state you allow individual elements of that topology to store and compute.
> 1622503866 531502 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> cellular automata are on one end. some form of mobile processes are on the other end.
> 1622503964 584109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<salpynx> Yes, even CA cells have an environment model (static)
> 1622504002 662307 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<salpynx> fongot, how do you model your enviromment?
> 1622504017 393906 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<salpynx> fungot, how do you model your enviromment?
> 1622504017 572206 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fungot> salpynx: the masamune! how can i do for you? thanks! it's about the missing queen. she still looks so much like leene, that they will take you to your place of execution?! strange, but!?
> 1622504075 825570 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<salpynx> oh, someone changed the model (I think?), I was expecting something more likely to be on topic.
> 1622504134 789555 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<b_jonas> welcome, oren
> 1622504181 889752 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Uyjhmn n14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83773&oldid=65787 5* 03Monochromeninja 5* (+111) 10/* File Extension */ new section
> 1622504194 6410 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> CA cells are finite state machines in nature, but depending on the CA, they either rely on the multiplicity of nearby types of cells, or on the specific arrangement of their neighbors.
> 1622504239 249594 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> so they can examine their locality, but they cannot be separated from their locality. if you're gonna program anything that travels, you need that to be a part of the rule set that _everything_ embodies.
> 1622504260 830461 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> meaning that every cell needs to understand how a data element can move left or right.
> 1622504299 858437 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> I wonder what would happen if you traveled slightly towards the "mobile processes" end of the gradient.
> 1622504332 348623 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> you'd probably get something like a turing machine.
> 1622504409 879538 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> I'm imagining that "transporting your state" at that point is like moving and managing a physical asset.
> 1622504439 677119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> gotta move things one by one, and build barriers that prevent others from viewing what you don't want them to view.
> 1622504634 744976 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<salpynx> I had an idea of making 'smart' CA agents as a kind of game, a cell could be an agent containing arbitrary code to interact with a CA API to read adjacent cells, modify adjacent cells, and set its next position, so it could try to survive and potentially build things to protect itself (or hunt opponent agents)
> 1622504696 227355 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> you'll find that that's what dave ackley's movable feast machine is.
> 1622504854 966159 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<salpynx> all the cells are smart in that though aren't they? I wonder if that'd help to have some number of simple FSM agents that could be marshalled by smarter agents with higher level programming and goals
> 1622504864 985230 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> not all of them are smart.
> 1622504884 422468 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> each cell _can_ contain an agent.
> 1622504895 87013 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> and can spawn agents adjacently.
> 1622504901 21703 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> but they can't materialize things out of nowhere.
> 1622505087 454961 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<salpynx> has anyone extended the idea of cellular automatons to graph automatons? (nodular automatons??) They could do 2d, 3d, but also less structured things. Would be hard to visualise, I imagine.
> 1622505119 871771 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> cellular automata on a graph?
> 1622505184 64529 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<salpynx> yes, they'd need to extend their playfield, maybe that's not as easy to translate as I first thought
> 1622505211 287503 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<imode> you could absolutely define CAs on arbitrary graphs, but they do need to be static.