< 1623197690 778411 :metcalf!~metcalf@host86-162-128-62.range86-162.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Quit: metcalf < 1623197708 822631 :metcalf!~metcalf@host86-162-128-62.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN #esoteric * :john > 1623197903 683562 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Nu14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84252&oldid=84251 5* 03Caenbe 5* (-103) 10/* Graph rewriting */ This may not be true < 1623197962 437294 :metcalf!~metcalf@host86-162-128-62.range86-162.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Client Quit < 1623197980 291570 :metcalf!~metcalf@host86-162-128-62.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN #esoteric * :john > 1623198110 436117 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Nu14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84253&oldid=84252 5* 03Caenbe 5* (+3) 10/* Examples */ ;;; > 1623198757 14777 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Nu14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84254&oldid=84253 5* 03Caenbe 5* (+136) 10/* Graph rewriting */ It is > 1623200217 439314 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07NOTE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84255&oldid=84250 5* 03ResU 5* (+356) 10 > 1623200879 678704 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07NOTE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84256&oldid=84255 5* 03ResU 5* (+26) 10 > 1623201075 589949 PRIVMSG #esoteric : b_jonas: Oh wow, glorious work. I pulled out my copy of the bird book, and indeed, kestrels are not allowed in Bravura's forest! > 1623201650 798174 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Okay, yeah. Smullyan points out that S is "duplicative", using arguments multiple times. The linear calculus, BCI, can't build S. > 1623201662 16269 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION first thought the bird book was Bird & de Moor
> 1623201683 978408 PRIVMSG #esoteric : yes, and `S' can't build `K' > 1623201689 391164 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Similarly, S can't build K, because K is "cancellative" and completely forgets an argument. > 1623201725 242171 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I found https://doi.org/10.1016/B978-0-444-87508-2.50017-4 which is paywalled but suggests that this is so well-known that they try to use BCSI to *approximate* K-like behavior while admitting that K itself is not buildable. > 1623201857 856724 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ski: Oh, sorry. The context is that Wolfram offered a cash prize for anybody who can show that S is (Turing-?) complete. But I was sure that the bird book had a disproof, and b_jonas did the hard work of looking it up. > 1623201888 738618 PRIVMSG #esoteric : mm, yea. (just finished reading that article) > 1623201905 337014 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (the Wolfram blag) > 1623202966 733187 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Shuffle14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84257&oldid=83239 5* 03Enoua5 5* (+198) 10Reformat command table < 1623204222 294049 :naptra!~naptra@78.157.87.195 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds > 1623204224 864057 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Shuffle14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84258&oldid=84257 5* 03Enoua5 5* (+2083) 10Add explanations to all examples > 1623204259 145378 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Wolfram already says any TCness has to be encoded in the non-terminating S combinator evolutions, so a direct K build is already ruled out > 1623204290 592170 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Pokemon Card GB2 does not list the previous stages of cards in play < 1623204292 218557 :ski!~ski@ed-3358-10.studat.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION . o O ( gnyrx ? )
> 1623204530 494469 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Shuffle14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84259&oldid=84258 5* 03Enoua5 5* (+449) 10Add section explaining memory layout > 1623204645 314923 PRIVMSG #esoteric : even Ix will need to be a non terminating encoding of x, so Kxy = Ix in some non terminating way which can be decoded by something that is not universal itself > 1623204786 765450 PRIVMSG #esoteric : relevant quote from the announcement > And by “emulate”, what we mean here is that a suitable “encoder”, “detector” and “decoder” can be found that will allow any evolution in the system being emulated to be mapped to a corresponding evolution in the S combinator system. > 1623204876 52492 PRIVMSG #esoteric : salpynx: Can you explain more what you see? I would naively and reductively assume that the I combinator simply isn't represented here; there's no way to emulate its (lack of) evolution. < 1623204883 68950 :metcalf!~metcalf@host86-162-128-62.range86-162.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Quit: metcalf > 1623204981 908128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Nu14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84260&oldid=84254 5* 03Caenbe 5* (+13) 10Better wording > 1623205167 463921 PRIVMSG #esoteric : It's not directly representable, but I guess that's the question: can it 'emulate' K's "cutting things down" via some kind of encoding? It'd have to include 'junk' data, which would have to be ignored by the decoder in the final step to get the result < 1623205176 645429 :naptra!~naptra@78.157.87.195 JOIN #esoteric Naptra :realname > 1623205207 229348 PRIVMSG #esoteric : more of Wolfram's writing linked to from somewhere in the announcement: https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2020/12/combinators-a-centennial-view/#the-world-of-the-s-combinator > 1623205455 162127 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Naively I wondered if you could use both sides of every K in every computation, then pick the 'real' one at the end. That'd be super inefficient with the combinatorics, and I don't know how you'd pick the correct version at the end. and it's probably more complicated than 'doing things twice' with K arguments > 1623205733 882799 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I guess my take is that a working emulated K in this hypothetical system must accumulate 'junk' which can be 'easily' discerned from the result of computation by the hypothetical decoder. Examining whether that kind of mechanism is possible or not is an avenue of attack. > 1623205807 437223 PRIVMSG #esoteric : My gut feel is any 'junk' would get smeared out through the whole combinatoric expression over time, and separating it won't be possible without doing an equivalent computation > 1623206042 6168 PRIVMSG #esoteric : also that Wolfram is talking about some meta computation requiring those “encoder”, “detector” and “decoder” external parts to the system, and that's possibly, as was said above by @b_jonas: "another weird game of defining what it means" > 1623206218 652682 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I can imagine a giant stream of combinator S's which take a single K as an argument, and duplicates and places the Ks where they need to go for reproducing any algorithm. No idea if that's helpful, but it's playing with separating parts of the system > 1623206251 969011 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Although we know something about their shape, at least. The bounded-time description should lead (by a handwave) to the encoder and decoder being katamorphisms. < 1623206300 649675 :naptra!~naptra@78.157.87.195 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds > 1623206373 280349 PRIVMSG #esoteric : But note that the encoder can be as simple as the identity function, if we're targeting SKI, so the question is whether there's some composition of S alone which yields K and I. IOW I think we get back up to what's been covered. > 1623206536 230025 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Oh wow, https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/227904/solve-the-halting-problem-for-s-combinatory-logic implies that it's not Turing-complete. Reading the paper right now, but this could be it. > 1623206863 817343 PRIVMSG #esoteric : That's a good find. > 1623206933 340297 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I think Wolfram know that though, and that's what I was picking up from his writing. To paraphrase what I think he's asking: Taking the infinite set of identifiable non-halting S Combinator expressions, is there some encoding which can give rise to an unresolvable halting problem in their evolutions? > 1623206996 40012 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (if there are not infinite non-halting evolutions, then it's really busted) > 1623207068 115288 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Let the codec be a genuine equivalence computable in poly time. Then wouldn't the codec's existence contradict Rice's Theorem? > 1623207075 271811 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Re-reading my paraphrase, that does sound sketchy, but I think that's what Wolfram is really asking. > 1623207098 892845 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I don't want to unfairly strawman Wolfram's question, but I'm really not sure if there's more to it than that. > 1623207236 297930 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Meh, "genuine equivalence" is vague and wrong. This isn't yet airtight, but it's suggestive. > 1623207532 605809 PRIVMSG #esoteric : wolfram's prize got its way to here, eh. > 1623207570 100466 PRIVMSG #esoteric : for S to be TC on its own it would have to re-order the expression so that past work doesn't get in the way of current work. because it can't, it's not TC. more rigorous proofs of that exist. > 1623208272 68235 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Makes sense. It sounds like there's three different ways to slice that S isn't TC: S can't even implement K or I, Halting for S is decideable, and now imode's point about divergence and order of operations. > 1623208422 442505 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's probably equivalent to a pushdown. > 1623208429 38385 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Unrelated: https://github.com/TartanLlama/vizh Nice! > 1623209681 381607 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:S1(210)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84261&oldid=84181 5* 03S1(210) 5* (+346) 10 < 1623211351 617190 :hakatashi1!~hakatashi@104.131.49.125 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1623212111 586793 :hakatashi1!~hakatashi@104.131.49.125 JOIN #esoteric * :hakatashi < 1623212145 133577 :hakatashi1!~hakatashi@104.131.49.125 QUIT :*.net *.split > 1623212145 983344 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:S1(210)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84262&oldid=84261 5* 03S1(210) 5* (+67) 10 < 1623212208 227159 :hakatashi1!~hakatashi@104.131.49.125 JOIN #esoteric * :hakatashi < 1623212268 613998 :hakatashi1!~hakatashi@104.131.49.125 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1623212287 196816 :hakatashi!~hakatashi@104.131.49.125 JOIN #esoteric hakatashi :hakatashi > 1623212403 454260 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84263&oldid=84236 5* 03S1(210) 5* (+15) 10/* F */ added [[Forwards]] > 1623214512 570128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07DeBruijn14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84264&oldid=84180 5* 03S1(210) 5* (+40) 10making page conform more to esolang's style guide > 1623214624 425971 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07DeBruijn14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84265&oldid=84264 5* 03S1(210) 5* (+0) 10/* External Resources */ > 1623214681 485919 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07DeBruijn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84266&oldid=84265 5* 03S1(210) 5* (+1) 10/* External resources */ < 1623216142 722289 :naptra!~naptra@78.157.87.195 JOIN #esoteric Naptra :realname < 1623216675 277352 :naptra!~naptra@78.157.87.195 QUIT :Quit: Leaving > 1623219034 97599 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Nu14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84267&oldid=84260 5* 03Caenbe 5* (+595) 10Added Binary Nu < 1623221277 348386 :metcalf!~metcalf@host86-162-128-62.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN #esoteric * :john < 1623221436 759365 :naptra!~naptra@78.157.87.195 JOIN #esoteric Naptra :realname < 1623222342 914827 :naptra!~naptra@78.157.87.195 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1623224854 714258 :metcalf!~metcalf@host86-162-128-62.range86-162.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Quit: metcalf < 1623224867 157718 :metcalf!~metcalf@host86-162-128-62.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN #esoteric * :john < 1623225072 849284 :xelxebar_!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN #esoteric xelxebar :ZNC - https://znc.in < 1623225126 70912 :metcalf!~metcalf@host86-162-128-62.range86-162.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Client Quit < 1623225142 348995 :metcalf!~metcalf@host86-162-128-62.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN #esoteric * :john < 1623225213 673439 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1623226486 292828 :metcalf!~metcalf@host86-162-128-62.range86-162.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1623227057 90763 :LKoen!~LKoen@132.161.9.109.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esoteric LKoen :LKoen < 1623227507 796654 :LKoen!~LKoen@132.161.9.109.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1623228205 832205 :LKoen!~LKoen@132.161.9.109.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esoteric LKoen :LKoen > 1623233873 631063 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07RGB4D14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84268 5* 03Magnogen 5* (+3837) 10First commit > 1623234576 207650 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Sekoia 5* 10New user account > 1623234926 825757 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84269&oldid=84224 5* 03Sekoia 5* (+102) 10Introduction > 1623235010 510618 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84270&oldid=84269 5* 03Sekoia 5* (+54) 10Fix messup > 1623236292 554978 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07RGB4D14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84271&oldid=84268 5* 03Magnogen 5* (-2) 10ProtoBit < 1623236596 774199 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1623236709 391221 :spruit11!~unknown@86.82.44.193 JOIN #esoteric spruit11 :I am unknown > 1623237011 894156 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Partitioned14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84272 5* 03Sekoia 5* (+1378) 10Partitioned is a language based around partitions of 255 bytes that share a single byte. > 1623237066 343541 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84273&oldid=84263 5* 03Sekoia 5* (+18) 10 < 1623237069 682886 :xelxebar_!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1623237137 719598 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN #esoteric xelxebar :ZNC - https://znc.in > 1623237160 182831 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Partitioned14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84274&oldid=84272 5* 03Sekoia 5* (+0) 10fix category typo > 1623237848 186550 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Tower14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84275 5* 03Sawcce 5* (+2933) 10Created page with "= Tower = Tower is an esoteric language meaning it is designed to be fun to use or a headache to program in! This page is a copy of the walkthrough of the Tower also present..." > 1623237903 126289 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Tower14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84276&oldid=84275 5* 03Sawcce 5* (-2) 10/* Tower */ > 1623237951 113257 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Tower14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84277&oldid=84276 5* 03Sawcce 5* (+42) 10/* Tower */ > 1623238245 835569 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Tower14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84278&oldid=84277 5* 03Sawcce 5* (+726) 10/* Commands */ > 1623239616 969472 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07NOTE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84279&oldid=84256 5* 03ResU 5* (+138) 10 > 1623240027 847026 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Omgrofl14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84280&oldid=58626 5* 03DeeBo 5* (+73) 10/* External resources */ < 1623240682 449277 :V!~v@anomalous.eu QUIT :Quit: We're here. We're queer. Connection reset by peer < 1623240710 391254 :V!~v@anomalous.eu JOIN #esoteric V :Wie? < 1623240744 802866 :LKoen!~LKoen@132.161.9.109.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds > 1623241204 800734 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07NOTE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84281&oldid=84279 5* 03ResU 5* (+164) 10 > 1623241208 35084 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Partitioned14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84282&oldid=84274 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+40) 10Cats, stub, WIP > 1623242014 740076 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Meloons 5* 10New user account > 1623242711 689716 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84283&oldid=84270 5* 03Meloons 5* (+200) 10My description > 1623242820 167782 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07NOTE14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84284&oldid=84281 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+1) 10Cat > 1623245240 348672 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Corbin: out of curiosity, is your IRC nick supposed to be from a bird too? > 1623245347 744730 PRIVMSG #esoteric : and if so, is it a combinator bird? < 1623245561 389349 :metcalf!~metcalf@host86-162-128-62.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN #esoteric * :john < 1623245777 469497 :metcalf!~metcalf@host86-162-128-62.range86-162.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Client Quit < 1623245795 854071 :metcalf!~metcalf@host86-162-128-62.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN #esoteric * :john > 1623246216 847758 PRIVMSG #esoteric : wait, so the norwegian/danish alphabet is supposed to have the last letters in the order "z æ ø å", but the swedish/finnish alphabet in the incompatible order "z å ä ö"? that decides my earlier question about encoding IRC nicks, the norwegian one is more natural because then the iso-646 encoding order matches the alphabet. but the different alphabetic order is still weird, I wonder how that got > 1623246222 833080 PRIVMSG #esoteric : invented. > 1623246268 51340 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I should have noticed this earlier because I've seen the swedish alphabetic order enough times and did look up the iso-646 encodings and should have noticed that it's in the wrong order > 1623246646 45685 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Russian alphabet ends with letters that are like a trash hidden in the corner of the room ШЩЪЫЬ and then suddenly perfectly normal vowels ЭЮЯ < 1623246806 788128 :metcalf!~metcalf@host86-162-128-62.range86-162.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Quit: metcalf < 1623246822 156189 :metcalf!~metcalf@host86-162-128-62.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN #esoteric * :john > 1623247146 764379 PRIVMSG #esoteric : nakilon: 1. "Ю" is supposed to be a "normal vowel" but it's also one of the rarest letters, though admittedly "Ъ" is even rarer. I don't understand in what sense "Ш" is trash though. 2. the latin alphabet has trash letters too, in fact even the greek one has some at the end, and holes in the middle for the purpose of gemmatria, to preserve the original phoenician order. the hebrew alphabet is the > 1623247152 742002 PRIVMSG #esoteric : only extant one that does not have trash at the end. > 1623247402 321219 PRIVMSG #esoteric : "I don't understand in what sense "Ш" is trash" -- the word traSH is literally ends with Ш; you can see that the "trash consonants ending" actually starts with Ф consonant: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A7%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C > 1623247444 378630 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Ъ and Ь aren't even either vowel or consonants -- they have no sound and words can start with them > 1623247498 152778 PRIVMSG #esoteric : *can't > 1623247533 291914 PRIVMSG #esoteric : nakilon: sure > 1623247617 13171 PRIVMSG #esoteric : also you can see the Ж being the most rate in the "non-trash half of the alphabet" -- together with Ш they have a rule "can't place Ы after Ж и Ш" (mnemonically known as "ЖИ и ШИ пиши через И") > 1623247714 310626 PRIVMSG #esoteric : *most rare > 1623247852 584637 PRIVMSG #esoteric : such rules feel like a waste of entropy -- similar in English only U can go after Q and it's so weird that we didn't even learn it as a rule and I only realised it when I was like 20 > 1623247906 687397 PRIVMSG #esoteric : nakilon: were you 20 before or after Iraq was featured in the news a lot? > 1623247927 761177 PRIVMSG #esoteric : also Ж and Щ are the most wide letters in any font > 1623248022 953372 PRIVMSG #esoteric : after > 1623248051 707997 PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://forum.enjoysudoku.com/phistomefel-s-theorem-t38410.html > 1623248187 535986 PRIVMSG #esoteric : nakilon: yeah, I started to make a 6 pixel tall font, with variable width, where most characters are at most 3 pixels wide plus a 1 pixel gap (the gap is omitted between some pairs of characters), but because some letters are hard to draw that way, I have added a three-way option for whether "MNm" are all wide, or "Mm" are wide but "N" is narrow, or every ascii letter is narrow. these options also > 1623248193 542857 PRIVMSG #esoteric : affect the russian letters, and indeed the three pixel wide versions are very ugly and mostly unrecognizable. > 1623248210 949080 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I should eventually finish that tiny font and use it for some esoteric project > 1623248235 28447 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I won't use it for everyday work, I have a large-sized fixed width font for that that I should improve > 1623248250 418644 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (the basics are fine but I have to add some new characters and redo the hastily done greek letters) > 1623248259 588543 PRIVMSG #esoteric : OCR developers might hate Ы letter > 1623248556 285252 PRIVMSG #esoteric : can't find English word for https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D1%81%D0%B2%D1%8F%D0%B7%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82 > 1623248602 130722 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ^ my father was связист in the army -- it's where you send and receive in Morze > 1623248628 731207 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Signaller? > 1623248634 778269 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Radio operator? > 1623248656 514734 PRIVMSG #esoteric : so for speed considerations they were told to use Ижица (V) symbol for Ж because Ж was too big https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izhitsa > 1623249013 797716 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Taneb yeah, probably this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signaller "Signallers, a.k.a. Combat Signallers" > 1623249037 472302 PRIVMSG #esoteric : idk what's the exact difference between radio and signalling, радист and связист > 1623249065 25082 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Perhaps signallers are also trained with lamps or flags or something > 1623249081 153263 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Whereas radio operators have some electric engineering training? < 1623249106 142244 :metcalf!~metcalf@host86-162-128-62.range86-162.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Quit: metcalf < 1623249117 676790 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1623249120 748534 :metcalf!~metcalf@host86-162-128-62.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN #esoteric * :john < 1623249146 713907 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN #esoteric xelxebar :ZNC - https://znc.in < 1623249159 552920 :delta23!~deltaepsi@unaffiliated/deltaepsilon23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving > 1623249161 892306 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's weird to use the word "signal" in two so different cases > 1623249294 313123 PRIVMSG #esoteric : yes, he was into the https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8E%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%BE (again no link to English wiki ..() that is about fixing and creating electronics yourself > 1623249362 122207 PRIVMSG #esoteric : basically he used only radio technologies, no visual stuff, the military base was underground actually < 1623249377 485422 :metcalf!~metcalf@host86-162-128-62.range86-162.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Client Quit < 1623249392 352701 :metcalf!~metcalf@host86-162-128-62.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN #esoteric * :john > 1623249438 161578 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I would expect the English article to be named "Hobby electronics" > 1623249502 936277 PRIVMSG #esoteric : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_corps > 1623249900 657851 PRIVMSG #esoteric : b_jonas: Ha, that's a fun idea! Curiously, it seems that Smullyan didn't use any corvids (blackbirds, magpies, ravens, rooks, crows, bluejays, etc.) for their bird list. < 1623250006 591144 :metcalf!~metcalf@host86-162-128-62.range86-162.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Quit: metcalf < 1623250052 165627 :metcalf!~metcalf@host86-162-128-62.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN #esoteric * :john < 1623250577 642178 :metcalf!~metcalf@host86-162-128-62.range86-162.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Quit: metcalf < 1623250595 743653 :metcalf!~metcalf@host86-162-128-62.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN #esoteric * :john < 1623250773 676142 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1623250864 734055 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN #esoteric xelxebar :ZNC - https://znc.in > 1623250950 43745 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I should finish learning morse > 1623251144 186430 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07PaRappa14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84285&oldid=83193 5* 03Zero player rodent 5* (+0) 10 > 1623251187 312777 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07PaRappa14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84286&oldid=84285 5* 03Zero player rodent 5* (+2) 10 > 1623251235 780790 PRIVMSG #esoteric : in amateur radio it is common to use the letter N in place of the numeral 9, for speed (-. versus ----.) > 1623251335 233327 PRIVMSG #esoteric : so for example a perfect signal report will be given as 5NN [..... -. -.] instead of 599 [..... ----. ----.] for a time savings of more than 50% > 1623251461 21277 PRIVMSG #esoteric : in the US it is possible to select your callsign (subject to restrictions) and operators who do a lot of CW (morse) will try to get one with a low "weight" > 1623251510 685331 PRIVMSG #esoteric : hah, didn't know that > 1623251588 290189 PRIVMSG #esoteric : imagine IRC transmitted in morze > 1623251621 248609 PRIVMSG #esoteric : `? morse > 1623251623 930912 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ​-- ..- .-. ... ..- / --- -. / ... ..- ..- .-. .. -.- --- -.- --- .. -. . -. / ...- . ... .. . .-.. .-.- -- .-.- .-.- -. / ... --- .--. . ..- - ..- -. ..- - / .- .-. -.- - .. -. . -. / -. .. ... .-.- -.- .-.- ... .-.. .- .--- .. > 1623251632 707754 PRIVMSG #esoteric : wat < 1623251640 747009 :metcalf!~metcalf@host86-162-128-62.range86-162.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds > 1623251652 533243 PRIVMSG #esoteric : `morse morse > 1623251653 407695 PRIVMSG #esoteric : morse? No such file or directory > 1623252260 65337 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:PaRappa14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84287 5* 03Caenbe 5* (+150) 10Created talk page > 1623252459 573504 PRIVMSG #esoteric : can't figure out what animal the URSU is > 1623252811 730533 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Surely it's MURSU, not URSU. > 1623252827 303400 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (And that's a walrus.) > 1623252878 222342 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I think that's from the lead paragraph of https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mursu > 1623252911 255995 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:OLNMLN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84288&oldid=84143 5* 03Grs 5* (-995) 10Replaced content with "Do you have any ideas to add something? -~~~ ~~~~~" > 1623252933 670693 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:OLNMLN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84289&oldid=84288 5* 03Grs 5* (-107) 10Blanked the page > 1623253193 967627 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: just looking through the logs and noticed that the new "has changed hostmask" showed someone's pre-cloaking host, which may be a bit unfortunate (although i think that means they're not following the advice of using sasl?) > 1623253296 238603 PRIVMSG #esoteric : `cbt morse > 1623253297 153630 PRIVMSG #esoteric : cat: /hackenv/bin/morse: No such file or directory > 1623253303 114941 PRIVMSG #esoteric : `which morse > 1623253304 24261 PRIVMSG #esoteric : No output. > 1623253309 825461 PRIVMSG #esoteric : nakilon: URSU is probably a bear; I don't know about MURSU > 1623253310 824728 PRIVMSG #esoteric : shikhin: that was you by the way, you should use sasl > 1623253315 24587 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ah wait, it's ? > 1623253329 74186 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's some wrong char in that string > 1623253334 457387 PRIVMSG #esoteric : leading non printable char > 1623253349 770601 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it makes all online decaders fail to decode it > 1623253355 265540 PRIVMSG #esoteric : see https://xkcd.com/2381/ > 1623253356 811843 PRIVMSG #esoteric : *decoders > 1623253389 405078 PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Smullyan didn't use any corvids" wait really? I thoguht he did... let me look up the English list > 1623253411 178722 PRIVMSG #esoteric : yes he did > 1623253423 385468 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Corbin: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Combinatory_logic says "Blackbird" > 1623253487 701060 PRIVMSG #esoteric : `` ruby -e "p '18:13:43 ​-- ..- .-.'.dump" > 1623253489 44258 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ​"\"18:13:43 \\u200B-- ..- .-.\"" > 1623253501 860665 PRIVMSG #esoteric : nakilon: it's the invisible space which HackEso prepends if the output starts with non-alphanumerics > 1623253510 953862 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's to avoid triggering other bots > 1623253521 162083 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ..\ > 1623253612 42515 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Caenbe14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84290&oldid=84237 5* 03Caenbe 5* (-173) 10 > 1623253673 949231 PRIVMSG #esoteric : b_jonas: Oh, nice, a bluebird of bluebirds. I guess I'm just a fancier sort of composition. > 1623253681 269042 PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan: I still think this sasl thing is sort of a scam. I like SASL, but advertising it because some people's clients are broken and will join channels without waiting for nickserv identify to succeed is silly. waiting for nickserv to reply that you're identified, or waiting for the server to tell you your hostmask has changed if you do it for a cloak, isn't actually easier than doing the SASL stuff > 1623253690 299238 PRIVMSG #esoteric : s/easier/harder/ > 1623253716 922559 PRIVMSG #esoteric : b_jonas: automatically? > 1623253750 648905 PRIVMSG #esoteric : i think you may be biased by being a person who finds programming trivial hth > 1623253769 200668 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's the same sort of argument that leads to telling others that you shouldn't send notices because other people's clients are broken and render them wrong, or shouldn't send color codes because they annoy other people becuase their client shows them in ugly colors or whatever. > 1623253795 981869 PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan: Yeah, whoops, too lazy to set it up just yet, but thanks. > 1623253802 105663 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I won't call ability to join channels without identifying "being broken" > 1623253844 816620 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's some flaw in the cloacking concept > 1623253887 657235 PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan: someone has to put the SASL thing in the irc clients too, just as much as the rest. you can say that it's worth because it works the same on multiple networks, so it's easier to implement because of that. in particular, nickserv id works backwards between libera/freenode and oftc. that would be a good argument, except for that if you try SASL on a server that doesn't understand SASL, you'll get > 1623253893 663647 PRIVMSG #esoteric : a hang. but that's not the argument they're making. > 1623253915 583694 PRIVMSG #esoteric : oh well > 1623253918 58342 PRIVMSG #esoteric : if your IRC client doesn't know SASL, and you don't know programming, it's just as hard to teach it SASL > 1623253987 480196 PRIVMSG #esoteric : just don't disconnect from the server *shrug* > 1623253997 865797 PRIVMSG #esoteric : you're right, i was comparing apples and oranges > 1623254030 671772 PRIVMSG #esoteric : if you "know programming" you can set up a BNC and probably can find a machine with reliable network connection > 1623254039 326438 PRIVMSG #esoteric : they could also make the argument that someone could guess when they'll reconnect after a disconnect, and WHO their hostmask before they rejoin the channel > 1623254064 305880 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm not against SASL, only against the stupid arguments that some IRC folks make about it > 1623254090 322832 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (and yes, freenode also requires SASL for some remote addresses as a way to control spam) > 1623254228 777204 PRIVMSG #esoteric : so ideally WHO shouldn't be possible until the SASL has gone through either... > 1623254244 80693 PRIVMSG #esoteric : no idea whether the servers enforce that > 1623254324 309579 PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan: yes, WHO isn't possible before SASL because your connection doesn't have a nick that WHO could target, nor a channel it's joined to > 1623254342 620382 PRIVMSG #esoteric : SASL is before you choose a NICK > 1623254417 408051 PRIVMSG #esoteric : is there any standard on "Tags" in the unicode table? like if I ask for "looks like a dot" and it would come up with . and · and • > 1623254630 415059 PRIVMSG #esoteric : 08:53 < nakilon> just don't disconnect from the server *shrug* > 1623254635 781155 PRIVMSG #esoteric : in soviet russia, server disconnects from YOU! > 1623254646 587378 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (been a lot of that this morning...) > 1623254715 311890 PRIVMSG #esoteric : are the sore losers at freenode packeting libera? > 1623254727 222052 PRIVMSG #esoteric : this matches too many chars that are not dots https://util.unicode.org/UnicodeJsps/list-unicodeset.jsp?a=[:name=/\bDOT$/:] > 1623254746 246979 PRIVMSG #esoteric : or is it just growing pains > 1623255319 393976 PRIVMSG #esoteric : this utility gives different sets of analogues for two different dots > 1623255327 51186 PRIVMSG #esoteric : https://util.unicode.org/UnicodeJsps/confusables.jsp?a=.&r=None > 1623255329 586758 PRIVMSG #esoteric : https://util.unicode.org/UnicodeJsps/confusables.jsp?a=%C2%B7&r=None > 1623255483 248429 PRIVMSG #esoteric : there should be some Unicode similarity graph, probably made manually < 1623255510 318409 :LKoen!~LKoen@132.161.9.109.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esoteric LKoen :LKoen > 1623255633 87201 PRIVMSG #esoteric : keegan_: no, it's spammers who spam both freenode and libera > 1623255647 909857 PRIVMSG #esoteric : they target both, or whichever networks/servers are the most popular > 1623255689 951454 PRIVMSG #esoteric : the sad part is when the spammers spam on freenode, then people go complain in #libera , even though the libera ops can't do anything to stop spam on freenode > 1623255697 674447 PRIVMSG #esoteric : so please don't do that > 1623255868 280059 PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan: Yeah, I guess I could remove the old one from the rendered view, or just omit the event entirely; it's not a super-interesting one. > 1623255897 495927 PRIVMSG #esoteric : The previous QUIT-and-JOIN combo contained the same information, I just wasn't rendering the hostname in QUITs (or JOINs). > 1623255955 114805 PRIVMSG #esoteric : also the https://util.unicode.org/UnicodeJsps/confusables.jsp tool can't find the char that looks like 'ф' that I saw somewhere just few minutes ago > 1623255972 900947 PRIVMSG #esoteric : while the https://shapecatcher.com/ found it immediately https://i.imgur.com/STqB0fG.png > 1623256095 911434 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Something I've always found slightly odd about CertFP auth is that the client needs to explicitly invoke SASL EXTERNAL to make the identification happen pre-login, even though it's not like there's any fundamental theoretical reason the server couldn't just... make it happen. > 1623256326 29204 PRIVMSG #esoteric : nakilon: which one? ϕ (greek alternate) or a math or APL symbol? < 1623256372 421733 :metcalf!~metcalf@host86-162-128-62.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN #esoteric * :john > 1623256405 367481 PRIVMSG #esoteric : in that test search case I was looking exactly for the one that shapecatcher.com recognized > 1623256538 151713 PRIVMSG #esoteric : nakilon: or ɸ the phonetic symbol? > 1623256689 300421 PRIVMSG #esoteric : "latin small letter qp digraph" > 1623256714 173123 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I expected the tool at unicode.org to give me it if I ask it for ф or Ф > 1623256727 935963 PRIVMSG #esoteric : because they are what I'm able to type > 1623256742 827768 PRIVMSG #esoteric : nakilon: it does if you ask for ϕ > 1623256753 942249 PRIVMSG #esoteric : oh > 1623256821 379270 PRIVMSG #esoteric : but I don't have a way to type it > 1623256891 147137 PRIVMSG #esoteric : opt+ф types 'd', opt+a types 'å' > 1623256980 407691 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Stop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84291&oldid=82999 5* 03Caenbe 5* (+38) 10Cat > 1623257020 933968 PRIVMSG #esoteric : those shapecatcher guys could make an excellent similarity graph > 1623257994 449434 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Nu14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84292&oldid=84267 5* 03Caenbe 5* (+1) 10/* Binary Nu */ > 1623258046 989369 PRIVMSG #esoteric : " but I don't have a way to type it" => > 1623258048 42520 PRIVMSG #esoteric : `? font > 1623258050 987466 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ​#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/ > 1623258054 991222 PRIVMSG #esoteric : copy it from http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm > 1623258063 962376 PRIVMSG #esoteric : from the greek block < 1623258088 291885 :metcalf!~metcalf@host86-162-128-62.range86-162.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds > 1623259070 458063 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10deleted "[[02Talk:OLNMLN10]]": Author request: blanked by only commenter > 1623260154 829828 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I would not know it's in greek block if you didn't tell me > 1623260462 471729 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's a fricking greek letter phi > 1623260467 556881 PRIVMSG #esoteric : how would it not be in the greek block? > 1623260476 460995 PRIVMSG #esoteric : yes, it's an unnecessary second character for the same letter that already has one > 1623260479 908737 PRIVMSG #esoteric : but still > 1623260496 325339 PRIVMSG #esoteric : there's a tradition there of it appearing twice in some character sets, an old enough tradition, so it has to be represented twice in unicode > 1623260513 152085 PRIVMSG #esoteric : and since that's an old enough tradition it was in the earliest versions of unicode in the 90s so it's in the greek block > 1623260568 945679 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I can't even say it's wasting space, unlike some of the stuff that they put to the first (1<<12) code points, and yes, I was told that they hadn't invented utf-8 yet so they didn't know the first (1<<12) code points were special > 1623260603 399682 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I don't imagine greek phi with that link pointing up, only down > 1623260612 311707 PRIVMSG #esoteric : for me it's a letter ф > 1623260625 208845 PRIVMSG #esoteric : *line > 1623260742 366152 PRIVMSG #esoteric : nakilon: to me it seems like the one with the straight line is a printed/carved form and the one with the loop is the handwritten form, sort of like the italic vs roman forms of many of the latin/cyrillic letters, which is why it's odd that it's double-encoded, but the greek script doesn't do that for many letters, so phi and theta got singled out > 1623260818 160239 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's probably Knuth who popularized having both in the same font in the same book > 1623260922 727812 PRIVMSG #esoteric : also you write ф and phi differently -- in Russian it's like 8, you go up when switching from left half to right one, now like in phi where you just move right > 1623260954 775657 PRIVMSG #esoteric : or perhaps it was Adobe, since one of their standard postscript fonts has both > 1623260957 958349 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm not sure > 1623260993 797891 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Among Us14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84293&oldid=82352 5* 03Zero player rodent 5* (+98) 10 > 1623261010 357490 PRIVMSG #esoteric : nakilon: oh, you're saying that it's not actually similar to the russian phi so if you're searching for characters that look similar in appearance to the russian phi you wouldn't think to look in the greek block? > 1623261054 763982 PRIVMSG #esoteric : that makes more sense > 1623261126 890536 PRIVMSG #esoteric : btw > 1623261154 283444 PRIVMSG #esoteric : that unicode.org tool does not give "qp digraph" for phi too > 1623261160 131683 PRIVMSG #esoteric : just checked > 1623261174 146319 PRIVMSG #esoteric : what qp digraph? > 1623261198 275055 PRIVMSG #esoteric : https://i.imgur.com/STqB0fG.png > 1623261218 358358 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (the second time I have a feeling you missed this link) > 1623261279 923890 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I don't think I've ever seen that > 1623261293 600896 PRIVMSG #esoteric : makes sense > 1623261294 477345 PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Additions for Africanist linguistics > 1623261300 875827 PRIVMSG #esoteric : hah > 1623261304 847353 PRIVMSG #esoteric : " the unicode PDF says > 1623261314 714359 PRIVMSG #esoteric : but somehow I saw it just two hours ago > 1623261327 998829 PRIVMSG #esoteric : and then to test the unicode.org tool I tried to find it > 1623261336 92436 PRIVMSG #esoteric : there are a lot of such supposedly roman letters that are only used as either phonetic symbols or trying to make a transcription for africian languages by linguists > 1623261340 594637 PRIVMSG #esoteric : by asking to show me letters similar to ф > 1623261358 267194 PRIVMSG #esoteric : sure, they might exists but I ignore most of them unless they also happen to have some more common use > 1623261390 312228 PRIVMSG #esoteric : most of the latin extended C block is such rare letters; this one is in latin extended B which has some more normal stuff < 1623261704 652229 :LKoen!~LKoen@132.161.9.109.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds > 1623262084 203114 PRIVMSG #esoteric : if I had the similarity graph I would make such tool that... > 1623262176 967626 PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Labial-uvular stops are much rarer, but have been found in three Mangbutu-Efe languages spoken in the Democratic Republic of the Congo and Uganda: Mamvu, and Lese." > 1623262193 858491 PRIVMSG #esoteric : you type "dot" and it finds all these chars https://unicodelookup.com/#dot/1 then finds the one with the smallest distance sum to all the rest and lists all them sorted by distance to that one > 1623262217 113903 PRIVMSG #esoteric : i guess that's what those africanists are studying > 1623262239 32124 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...printing all these chars one per line, filling the line by all the chars in unicode that look like them > 1623262243 92995 PRIVMSG #esoteric : * linguists > 1623262302 892231 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (I mean not similarity graph but similarity matrix) > 1623262369 650370 PRIVMSG #esoteric : hm nope, it's apparently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_labiodental_plosive > 1623262390 435561 PRIVMSG #esoteric : _much_ less exotic > 1623262511 392018 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I have no idea what the "labiodental" mean but Afrika is Африка > 1623262542 579593 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07RGB4D14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84294&oldid=84271 5* 03ProtoBit 5* (+763) 10Added truth machine program and some minor formatting improvements > 1623262570 391810 PRIVMSG #esoteric : nakilon: f actually is labiodental > 1623262586 833575 PRIVMSG #esoteric : although this symbol represents a stop, not a fricative > 1623262610 629090 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Αφρική > 1623262618 82755 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it means it's made with lips touching teeth > 1623262628 439604 PRIVMSG #esoteric : did anyone like my sudoku link? > 1623262633 386076 PRIVMSG #esoteric : bottom lip upper teech? I see > 1623262640 567229 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84295&oldid=84273 5* 03ProtoBit 5* (+12) 10Added RGB4D to the language list > 1623262652 19125 PRIVMSG #esoteric : riv I did > 1623262657 3785 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ty > 1623262691 561928 PRIVMSG #esoteric : my father loved solving sudoku > 1623262723 350283 PRIVMSG #esoteric : i used to but i'm out of practice > 1623262766 916739 PRIVMSG #esoteric : we were buying those newspapers and other printed things with them but he said they have too many digits already already filled in > 1623262818 770592 PRIVMSG #esoteric : so I've found that one guy in internet was collecting the sudoku boards that had the minimal number of digits shown, IIRC it was 18, and he had an archive of thousands of them > 1623262873 699731 PRIVMSG #esoteric : so I made my father a program that he launches and it makes a PNG file with next puzzle ready to be sent to printer > 1623262969 31963 PRIVMSG #esoteric : though I felt like he finds it to be less interesting than buying in a kiosk > 1623263016 68218 PRIVMSG #esoteric : nakilon: print them on cheap low quality paper and give yours to the kiosk to sell them back to him? > 1623263033 33310 PRIVMSG #esoteric : sounds like a business idea > 1623263059 144534 PRIVMSG #esoteric : yeah, they can sell extra copies to others > 1623267488 803067 PRIVMSG #esoteric : what do you do when Newton’s method doesn’t make the root more accurate when it appears it could add another decimal digit? The equation is polynomial, even a simple one: x^N − x − 1 = 0. I make numpy give me roots, pick the largest real one and try to make it better > 1623267554 558048 PRIVMSG #esoteric : there’s at least one case when naive algorithm x ↦ (x + 1) ^ (1/N) makes x^N − x − 1 closer to zero than this approach > 1623267591 523539 PRIVMSG #esoteric : N = 11 if I’m not mistaken > 1623267635 106979 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ah, no, N = 11 is fine, two Newton iterations suffice > 1623267728 13510 PRIVMSG #esoteric : though I don’t need to chase bits, I guess I’m fine with 1e−15 errors too > 1623267802 70596 PRIVMSG #esoteric : finally some rain and thunder here > 1623267841 135878 PRIVMSG #esoteric : velik, good thing you don't have to deal with floating point right? > 1623267892 460928 PRIVMSG #esoteric : seems improbable there was no major rain for two or more weeks. Usually the climate here is more humid in summer, I even despise rains sometimes, when the weather is cyclonic and cold and all that windy unsummery stuff > 1623268061 678281 PRIVMSG #esoteric : arseniiv: is the magnitude of the derivative significantly less than 1 at the root? > 1623268074 21485 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it should be, otherwise you shouldn't use Newton's method as is > 1623268109 884670 PRIVMSG #esoteric : or something like that, that's probably not the right criteria, I'm bad at this > 1623268201 87336 PRIVMSG #esoteric : b_jonas: gotta analyze, but I think it should be decent > 1623268397 330172 PRIVMSG #esoteric : the derivative at the root is N − 1 + N x^−1, and as x > 1, that’s always > N − 1; for large N it’s asymptotically 2 N − 1 as x → 1 > 1623268450 465625 PRIVMSG #esoteric : so that’s float magic we’re to blame here > 1623268504 60529 PRIVMSG #esoteric : also maybe the root values are okay and the error is more due to x^N − x − 1. I’ll check with a CAS maybe > 1623269411 766499 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84296&oldid=84283 5* 03Jetison333 5* (+243) 10/* Introductions */ > 1623271966 828856 PRIVMSG #esoteric : arseniiv: ok, but I'm not sure that's actually the right condition > 1623271986 163717 PRIVMSG #esoteric : so you may have to look up what the actual condition for stability is > 1623272005 108848 PRIVMSG #esoteric : b_jonas: yeah > 1623272015 749236 PRIVMSG #esoteric : though I’m pretty satisfied as it is > 1623272032 37451 PRIVMSG #esoteric : arseniiv: by the way, you do know that reinventing the wheel for computing the root of a polynomial equation on the reals is in general a bad idea unless you're really good at numerical analysis, because there are existing good libraries for it, right? you can still do it for practice or learning > 1623272037 825230 PRIVMSG #esoteric : or for esoteric purposees > 1623272154 692929 PRIVMSG #esoteric : b_jonas: I know! I actually started with the existing numpy function for that and I still use it > 1623272198 871684 PRIVMSG #esoteric : but two Newton iterations on top of it make things even better though, for better or for worse (actually, just a single one is necessary for large N) > 1623272201 504550 PRIVMSG #esoteric : very good > 1623272224 796202 PRIVMSG #esoteric : also it’s a headache to write your own numeric code in large quantities! > 1623272764 640838 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I did make Newton fractal before, which is based on Newton's method > 1623273523 11618 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07A returns a14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84297 5* 03Jetison333 5* (+3768) 10Created page with "{{lowercase}} {{wrongtitle|title=a{a}}} '''a{a}''' (pronounced a returns a) is an esolang that is based on recursion. A function is just a list of cases, and can be defined b..." < 1623273655 755101 :LKoen!~LKoen@132.161.9.109.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esoteric * :LKoen > 1623274042 468305 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84298&oldid=84295 5* 03Jetison333 5* (+23) 10/* A */ > 1623274095 789589 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Jetison33314]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84299 5* 03Jetison333 5* (+82) 10Created page with "So far I've made one esolange, [[A returns a|a{a}]], but I hope to make more soon." > 1623274190 853526 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07A returns a14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84300&oldid=84297 5* 03Jetison333 5* (+1) 10 < 1623275313 389771 :dionys!dionys@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-idnjsnlcitiastsj JOIN #esoteric dionys :dionys > 1623277825 679732 PRIVMSG #esoteric : https://ai.facebook.com/blog/nethack-learning-environment-to-advance-deep-reinforcement-learning/ might have some overlap with people on this channel too. > 1623278251 935909 PRIVMSG #esoteric : meh, wanted to make IRC morse encoder/decoder the only morse ruby gem that can encode Cyrillic is packaged in the wrong way (with dependencies lock file included) while one of the dependencies is made in the wrong way (has binary with a name 'console' that is conflicting) > 1623278328 889187 PRIVMSG #esoteric : yesterday I learned that the average length of working at Facebook is 8 months > 1623278418 289616 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (missed ", but" somewhere above) > 1623278703 385073 PRIVMSG #esoteric : when your repo is a dependency for 4500 other repos and all them don't install because you can't ./bin properly https://github.com/krisleech/wisper/issues/183 > 1623278712 69551 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Does that average take internships into account too, I wonder. > 1623278724 598071 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie idk > 1623278820 525858 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it was in a "podcast" talk interview with a girl who's currently in some consulting about how to build things > 1623279807 565779 PRIVMSG #esoteric : oh no! > 1623279817 176591 PRIVMSG #esoteric : you esoteric guys are infecting me > 1623279850 4109 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I felt a sudden urge to spell "preemptive" with a diaræsis. I could suppress it this time, but it's worrying > 1623279959 570919 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Just coöperate with us and you won't get hurt. > 1623280010 130750 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I think I saw "coöperation" spelled that way in a book (of fiction) somewhat recently. > 1623280092 179516 PRIVMSG #esoteric : “So we’re competing against a fuel cell for the available oxygen?” Arsibalt asked. “Think of it as coöperation.” (Anathem, Neal Stephenson) > 1623280165 474249 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: that doesn't work, "ö" and "ü" just look to me like it's an umlaut changing the vowel value rather than a diaresis to separate adjacent vowels, unless perhaps it's in French text where they look a bit more confusing (even though "ö" and "ü" are very rare in French in that context) > 1623280199 936534 PRIVMSG #esoteric : but "ë" does look like it has a diaresis, because I don't see that one used as an umlaut often > 1623280219 742577 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm not saying it never happens, but it's not as common as with "ö" and "ü" > 1623280228 259390 PRIVMSG #esoteric : what should the minimal resolution of a glyph be. > 1623280280 234457 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Yeah, I do find myself forced to think of the Finnish ö (/ø/) sound whenever I see ö in "coöperation", and it does sound pretty silly. > 1623280282 314825 PRIVMSG #esoteric : imode: depends on the script, I am working on a 6 pixel tall tiny latin font, but I'd never consider a 6 pixel tall kanji or hangul or vietnamese font, those just need more space > 1623280306 807302 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION prefers powers of two.
> 1623280358 269792 PRIVMSG #esoteric : even "ä" looks like an umlaut to me, even though technically "ë" as umlaut is more common in Hungarian, but "ä" is prevalent because of all the german and swedish texts > 1623280410 746309 PRIVMSG #esoteric : gimme da chonky 8x8 glyphs. > 1623280443 383669 PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1x1 is the best minimal power of 2 hth > 1623280444 51518 PRIVMSG #esoteric : 8 pixel tall is well proven on many older computer displays and printers > 1623280467 806828 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fecupboard20 my font is 20 pixel tall, that's why it's called that > 1623280472 173518 PRIVMSG #esoteric : `? oërjan > 1623280473 860478 PRIVMSG #esoteric : oërjan? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ > 1623280524 36990 PRIVMSG #esoteric : there used to be a fecupboard16, but I no longer use it, it doesn't have decent character coverage, it doesn't look nice, and I'm not distributing it because it's not a free font > 1623280549 458459 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I used to use it on VGA text console > 1623280608 889975 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I think my SparcStation 5 had a 12x22 pixel font in its ROMs. > 1623280630 905843 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I think it was a little quirky though. > 1623280657 955916 PRIVMSG #esoteric : something I'm contemplating is doing sub-glyphs. > 1623280684 610442 PRIVMSG #esoteric : either shipping an 8x8 or 4x4 "shape" pack and building glyphs on top of that. > 1623280695 529604 PRIVMSG #esoteric : so your text would probably be chonk. > 1623280926 910526 PRIVMSG #esoteric : https://mrmotarius.itch.io/mrmotext < 1623281272 604172 :563AAAAAB!~GREATEST@107.167.8.10 JOIN #esoteric * :Give me upvotes please. > 1623281502 720474 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I have 8x8 fonts for code page 437, 850, 865, 866, and 1125. > 1623281589 934541 PRIVMSG #esoteric : are there really thousands of codepages now. > 1623281638 241218 PRIVMSG #esoteric : zzo38: not for 852? > 1623281642 94613 PRIVMSG #esoteric : :P > 1623281673 720162 PRIVMSG #esoteric : doesn't even DOS 6.22 include one for 852 that you can enable with MODE ? > 1623281694 537135 PRIVMSG #esoteric : by changing to 852 codepage and to 50 line mode on VGA that is > 1623281730 74401 PRIVMSG #esoteric : but if not, you can just make such a font from a 8x8 unicode font with enough coverage > 1623281820 603284 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ／！\ THIᏚ CHΑNⲚEL HAЅ MΟVEᎠ ΤO IᏒC．LⅠBΕᎡA．ϹHAТ ＃НAMᎡADIΟ /ǃ＼ > 1623281857 21448 PRIVMSG #esoteric : lol. > 1623281915 720054 PRIVMSG #esoteric : `unidecode /ǃ＼ > 1623281916 821321 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ​[U+002F SOLIDUS] [U+01C3 LATIN LETTER RETROFLEX CLICK] [U+FF3C FULLWIDTH REVERSE SOLIDUS] > 1623281954 231078 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Hmm, it might be missing U+01C3 in the middle part. > 1623281968 79738 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ​[U+002F SOLIDUS] [U+0021 EXCLAMATION MARK] [U+FF3C FULLWIDTH REVERSE SOLIDUS] > 1623281997 767730 PRIVMSG #esoteric : language and writing is complicated. > 1623282031 453973 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I wonder what subset of UTF-8 will fit in an 8x8 character cell. > 1623282061 118955 PRIVMSG #esoteric : By definition all of it, unless you put a fidelity requirement on it. > 1623282073 422701 PRIVMSG #esoteric : There's 2^64 different 8x8 characters, after all. > 1623282103 240969 PRIVMSG #esoteric : legible characters. > 1623282121 334008 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Batata14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84301&oldid=83935 5* 03Batata 5* (+60) 10 > 1623282125 310527 PRIVMSG #esoteric : That's just a matter of training your users, surely. > 1623282126 299528 PRIVMSG #esoteric : guess I should just learn to read in 64-bit code blocks. > 1623282307 893083 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ▜▘▌ ▝ ▗▖ ▄▖ ▗▖▄ ▄ ▌ ▗ ▌ ▄ ▖▖ ▌ ▟▖▗ ▖▖▗ ▗▖▗ ▗▖▄ ▝ ▄▖▗ ▖▖▝ ▟▖▌ ▗ ▖▖▟▖ ▗▖▗ ▄ ▟▖▗ ▖▖▟▖ > 1623282311 898772 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ▐ ▛▖▐ ▘▖ ▖▘ ▌ ▄▌▌▌ ▛▖▛▘ ▛▖▄▌▛ ▞▌ ▐ ▌▌ ▛ ▛▘▌ ▌▌▚▌▌▌▐ ▖▘▛▘ ▙▌▐ ▐ ▛▖▌▌▌▌▐ ▌ ▌▌▌▌▐ ▛▘▞▖▐ > 1623282315 905150 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ▝ ▘▘▝ ▀ ▀▘ ▝▘▀▘▘▘ ▀ ▝▘ ▘▘▀▘▘ ▝▘ ▘▝ ▘ ▝▘▝▘▝ ▄▘▘▘▝ ▀▘▝▘ ▀▘▝ ▘▘▘▝ ▝▘ ▘ ▝▘▝ ▘▘ ▘▝▘▘▘ ▘▝ > 1623282368 687321 PRIVMSG #esoteric : is that a 2. > 1623282370 814664 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Batata14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84302&oldid=84301 5* 03Batata 5* (+45) 10 > 1623282378 78530 PRIVMSG #esoteric : "this 2 can be hard to recognize without context" > 1623282387 918484 PRIVMSG #esoteric : It's a "z", as you can tell from the same pixels in "recognize". > 1623282394 42747 PRIVMSG #esoteric : aha. > 1623282405 991180 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ▀▖ ▐ ▄▖ ▄▖ > 1623282406 39148 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ▞ ▝ ▄▖ ▖▘ > 1623282406 39218 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ▀▘ ▝ ▀▘▝ > 1623282411 750329 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fair. > 1623282425 150692 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I tried to use that font at work in Chat, but while it made the block-drawing characters monospaced, the spaces stayed proportional, and it went all wrong. > 1623282448 530432 PRIVMSG #esoteric : the 'e' looks all fucked up, like it compressed it. > 1623282472 283302 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I.. actually do not know whether my terminal font is monospaced. I think it is. > 1623282496 29839 PRIVMSG #esoteric : imode: Many of the lwer code page numbers are EBCDIC rather than ASCII, so the code page numbers used modern are high larger numbers. > 1623282508 778367 PRIVMSG #esoteric : b_jonas: I don't have 852. > 1623282516 986926 PRIVMSG #esoteric : zzo38: meant it to be a joke. > 1623282549 795611 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Is there a code page number for TRON? > 1623282561 390356 PRIVMSG #esoteric : https://zem.fi/tmp/ref.png if you want to see a reference rendering. I do like the "z" in that though. > 1623282581 933708 PRIVMSG #esoteric : oh that looks nothing like mine. > 1623282594 504342 PRIVMSG #esoteric : everything is all cronched together. > 1623282627 348698 PRIVMSG #esoteric : if you added curvature/smooth corners to the block shapes, it'd be better. > 1623282635 318354 PRIVMSG #esoteric : at least more parseable. > 1623282641 677670 PRIVMSG #esoteric : That's probably some sort of a width difference between space and the blocks, because that's a good description of what it looked like in Chat. > 1623282669 123181 PRIVMSG #esoteric : yeah. those blocks are definitely compressed length-wise for me. > 1623282692 223288 PRIVMSG #esoteric : because the top pixel on the 'e' is like, 1px by 8px. > 1623282728 85862 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Huh, that's awkward. Oh well. > 1623282740 764635 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION needs a new font.
> 1623282848 761420 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Code page 852 is one of the ones I wanted though, so that if Berusky game is ported to Free Hero Mesh, that the proper orthography can be in use. (Also maybe should be added the possibility to use other font sizes too, although currently a lot of the code assumes that 8x8 fonts are used, so they will need to be changed if it is to be implemented.) > 1623282920 373808 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Heh, well... it didn't turn out great in my web browser on the logs page either: https://zem.fi/tmp/ref2.png > 1623282982 829357 PRIVMSG #esoteric : And that's styled as `font-family: monospace;` and all. > 1623282990 871624 PRIVMSG #esoteric : eugh that alignment. > 1623283053 339038 PRIVMSG #esoteric : My own opinion is that Unicode is bad for grid-based text displaying. > 1623283072 378071 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: that's an interesting tiny font. has some decisions different from what I made in my tiny font > 1623283093 721186 PRIVMSG #esoteric : even if it's the same size, most of the letters differ < 1623283157 881211 :LKoen!~LKoen@132.161.9.109.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” > 1623283174 844863 PRIVMSG #esoteric : It's the one I did for rfk86, I think with the main inspiration being mooz's TI-86 Befunge interpreter's font probably, though it's not exactly same as that one either.