< 1621987257 48777 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :" I wonder what a NetHack TCG would be like" => I was wondering about that at some point, and figured out some possible mechanics, but in the end it mostly comes down to making any good TCG core, then flavoring it to nethack by throwing in as many nethack references as you can. Same as you'd make a TCG for a TV series. < 1621987302 951613 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :if computerized, the biggest way you could do it is simply to try and have as much foresight as nethack itself < 1621987306 463466 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :good luck with that though < 1621987334 465919 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :You apply the potion of oil to the iron golem, it's attack power doubles! < 1621987351 545672 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's an interesting quine, how does the unbalanced double quote work? < 1621987388 295745 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can try to make up templates for the TCG using TeXnicard, perhaps. I also believe that a computer implementation of the rules should be written as FOSS, perhaps using literate programming so that it includes the general text too. < 1621987427 397607 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas it reads it once for start then wraps around the line and reads it again for the end > 1621987472 325823 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BF-PDA14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83429&oldid=83008 5* 03Bangyen 5* (-74) 10 > 1621987484 657106 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFStack14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83430&oldid=83011 5* 03Bangyen 5* (-53) 10 > 1621987508 912087 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EXCON14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83431&oldid=83007 5* 03Bangyen 5* (-15) 10/* Interpreter */ > 1621987523 521746 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RAM014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83432&oldid=83010 5* 03Bangyen 5* (-53) 10 < 1621987524 494397 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: bash arbitrary delimiter: there's here-docs, but nothing like perl/ruby's single character delimiter. I would occasionally like a better delimiter for URLs in bash, because neither " nor ' works. < 1621987619 465774 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: oh! so that's why when I miss the @ builtin you get an infinite loop. that makes much more sense < 1621987632 733692 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ye ) < 1621987733 426435 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well that makes more sense < 1621987802 787922 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have found ' suitable to delimit URLs in bash < 1621987885 851514 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: that doesn't work well because URLs can contain ' so then you have to escape it < 1621987935 543832 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :$'' doesn't work for the same reason; "" doesn't work because now you have to escape dollar signs < 1621988082 925468 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and yes, this is a small complaing, I do generally like bash < 1621988085 831806 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had never needed to use a URL with ' < 1621988198 894628 :mnrmnaugh!~mnrmnaugh@pool-96-252-87-182.bstnma.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esolangs < 1621988325 957445 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :hey I made it even shorter < 1621988328 803283 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :\rasel <@,Yj5#?:," < 1621988331 976453 :velik!~velik@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :output: "<@,Yj5#?:,\"", exit code: 0 < 1621988393 400473 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :both ? branches reach the j, but one gets 5 and another carries own end-loop 0 < 1621988510 472498 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's now 1 char shorter than Befunge-98 I guess < 1621988919 292552 :mnrmnaugh!~mnrmnaugh@pool-96-252-87-182.bstnma.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1621988949 94859 :mnrmnaugh!~mnrmnaugh@pool-96-252-87-182.bstnma.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esolangs < 1621988961 94920 :mnrmnaugh!~mnrmnaugh@pool-96-252-87-182.bstnma.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1621989104 470969 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :`rasel <@,Yj5#?:," < 1621989106 746850 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​<@,Yj5#?:," < 1621989120 979450 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :valid in both versions < 1621989302 755421 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :`rasel "tobadbmal olleh >",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,@ < 1621989306 276012 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​> hello lambdabot < 1621989509 227109 :mnrmnaugh!~mnrmnaugh@pool-96-252-87-182.bstnma.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esolangs < 1621989705 632472 :mnrmnaugh!~mnrmnaugh@pool-96-252-87-182.bstnma.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1621989742 888965 :mnrmnaugh!~mnrmnaugh@pool-96-252-87-182.bstnma.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esolangs > 1621989760 855660 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RASEL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83433&oldid=83422 5* 03Nakilon 5* (+7) 10/* Quine */ 11 chars > 1621993023 384906 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Aylias 5* 10New user account > 1621993188 800573 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83434&oldid=83411 5* 03Aylias 5* (+206) 10/* Introductions */ < 1621993553 590959 :mnrmnaugh!~mnrmnaugh@pool-96-252-87-182.bstnma.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1621993644 936594 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Heh, I was fiddling in SASL support to my IRC thing (seems to be working now), and noticed I had originally generated a 10-year self-signed cert, which will expire next year. Wonder how I'm supposed to remember something like that. < 1621993697 989010 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :put it into your calendar and hope that it survives the 2 software migrations in the meantime? < 1621993922 167406 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, it might just barely work. < 1621995025 222295 :mnrmnaugh!~mnrmnaugh@pool-96-252-87-182.bstnma.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esolangs < 1621995375 998061 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Turns out bip doesn't do SASL. :/ (After adding it to the homegrown bot thing, was thinking of setting it up for this human-client connection too.) < 1621995429 711395 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :irssi does. weechat does too, presumably < 1621995465 293701 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, but they're not bouncers. < 1621995486 974433 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I went through this phase of experimenting with clients, and it was convenient to not have that cause any trouble. < 1621995495 829494 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I know ZNC does, but it's too mainstream.) < 1621995502 811942 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh bouncers, right < 1621995536 240300 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, being mainstream may correlate with growing sasl support < 1621995544 851719 :mnrmnaugh!~mnrmnaugh@pool-96-252-87-182.bstnma.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1621995599 13317 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, I guess. bip does client-side certificates, which is *almost* but not exactly the same. < 1621995683 101619 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Adding a client cert fingerprint to NickServ makes it auto-identify soon *after* connecting, but you still need to do a SASL EXTERNAL thing in the connection registration stage to make it happen before actually connecting.) < 1621995688 412115 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :...almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea... < 1621998550 177345 :dyeplexer!~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer JOIN :#esolangs < 1621998977 68568 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :did y'all get your channel seized on freenode. < 1621998980 561456 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :because #lobsters did. < 1621998991 204538 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :everyone did < 1621999002 793743 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :they've seized every single channel that mentions libera. < 1621999031 60053 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :all of them < 1621999037 651469 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :and are doing.. what. < 1621999061 345931 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :forcibly preventing the channel from leaving, by hiding the fact it moved < 1621999070 735810 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's redirected to it's ## version, and owned by a placeholder account < 1621999102 365020 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :anybody wanna argue about FUD when moving networks now. < 1621999200 274768 :variable!~someone@user/variable JOIN :#esolangs < 1621999270 541860 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1621999275 689514 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN :#esolangs < 1621999323 110628 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1621999348 119249 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :/!\ Freenode has started to take over project channels that advertise ("spam") Libera Chat in the topic, e.g.: https://pastebin.com/UGgTwRnt < 1621999377 832161 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :brctl: ignore int-e > 1621999377 832221 PRIVMSG #esolangs :brctl: ignoring < 1621999460 450855 :illegal!~v@anomalous.eu QUIT :Quit: We're here. We're queer. Connection reset by peer < 1621999494 286895 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :bye freenode, fuck you andrew lee. < 1621999501 515794 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :brctl: ignore imode > 1621999501 515832 PRIVMSG #esolangs :brctl: ignoring < 1621999601 247573 :illegal!~v@anomalous.eu JOIN :#esolangs < 1621999608 483892 :illegal!~v@anomalous.eu NICK :V < 1621999678 871075 :V!~v@anomalous.eu QUIT :Client Quit < 1621999705 254526 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :brctl: ignore cd > 1621999705 254583 PRIVMSG #esolangs :brctl: ignoring < 1621999749 112161 :pikhq!sid394595@id-394595.highgate.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's pretty... uh, what did they think was gonna happen < 1621999839 215732 :V!~v@anomalous.eu JOIN :#esolangs < 1621999944 862461 :chibi!~chibi@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :pikhq: Probably hope to snag users that haven't realized everyone's movied to libera < 1621999964 704074 :chibi!~chibi@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :So uders that log on to IRC maybe once-twice a month or something < 1622000023 731722 :variable!~someone@user/variable QUIT :Quit: Found 1 in /dev/zero < 1622000053 62474 :pikhq!sid394595@id-394595.highgate.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i feel like they'd notice the sudden total redirection of all the channels to ## under new management tho < 1622000055 802811 :chibi!~chibi@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I still don't get the hostile takeover of Freenode, I'd assume taking care of the needs and wants of a bunch of smelly computer nerds (present company excluded) would be a much bigger pain in the ass than whatever monetary gains are to be had from owning the IRC chat which they use > 1622000063 639850 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Amp 5* 10New user account < 1622000080 567960 :pikhq!sid394595@id-394595.highgate.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is objectively bizarre < 1622000106 836403 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a monetization scam. you buy and wall users in, you turn the network into an "embrace, extend, extinguish" scenario for standards, then you sell it. < 1622000162 182294 :chibi!~chibi@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Who'd buy it and why? < 1622000181 433048 :chibi!~chibi@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :There is an objectively negative cost associated with owning and maintaining an IRC network < 1622000193 592766 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :it won't be an IRC network. it'll be an irc.com network. < 1622000200 359806 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :big difference. < 1622000216 446102 :chibi!~chibi@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh? Could you explain? < 1622000226 486445 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :go to irc.com and see the plans andrew laid out for IRC. > 1622000233 785711 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83435&oldid=83434 5* 03Amp 5* (+155) 10/* Introductions */ < 1622000281 380802 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :irc.com is hilarious garbage < 1622000296 749230 :chibi!~chibi@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :what_the_fuck_am_i_reading.jpg < 1622000298 210770 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b9875e.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder what they do for channels that are in "violation" that are already ## > 1622000305 721169 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83436&oldid=83435 5* 03Amp 5* (+67) 10/* Introductions */ < 1622000306 298173 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :###. < 1622000308 480793 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs ::P < 1622000315 432376 :chibi!~chibi@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :3>IRC is one of the last few remaining open messaging platforms that anybody can setup and manage their own communities with. No vendor lock in, no black box services. < 1622000322 438615 :chibi!~chibi@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :They introduce this like it's a bad thing < 1622000325 560739 :imode!~imode@user/imode NICK :FuckAndrewLee > 1622000355 151935 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Amp14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83437 5* 03Amp 5* (+2) 10Created page with "yo" < 1622000410 166486 :chibi!~chibi@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I see, so Lee's trying to make Freenode his so he can make it the testbed for his irc.com webshit and sell it to investors? < 1622000417 214108 :FuckAndrewLee!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :yuh. < 1622000453 469098 :chibi!~chibi@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd ask who'd invest in that, but then people invested in juicero so I won't. > 1622000498 645825 PRIVMSG #esolangs : Goodbye freenode:#esoteric, see you on the other side (where I've already taken up residence, obviously.) < 1622000534 690360 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :very smart to take over a platform and immediately drive off the entire existing userbase < 1622000553 386309 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :clearly much better than just starting your own irc network from scratch < 1622000555 864220 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs ::P < 1622000572 384537 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :ikr < 1622000591 429230 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :is this just a case of capitalists being unable to understand the internet? they can't imagine any way to build things that doesn't involve first displacing an existing group of people? < 1622000596 259707 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :i'm sad i ran out of good trolling to do with fn-ceo, that was fun for maybe the first 30min < 1622000632 973932 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :hopefully someone else on the server opens the tmux instance up and starts talking again :P < 1622000722 870359 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b9875e.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :brctl: help ignore > 1622000722 870403 PRIVMSG #esolangs :brctl: usage: "brctl: ignored" (to list), "brctl: ignore [net/]nick" (to add) or "brctl: unignore [net/]nick" (to remove); network defaults to your own; nick = * matches any message < 1622000736 29967 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b9875e.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :brctl: ignore > 1622000736 30013 PRIVMSG #esolangs :brctl: see "brctl: help ignore" (filter by nick) and "brctl: help filter" (filter by text content) for the two available commands < 1622000750 201907 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b9875e.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :brctl: ignore Sgeo > 1622000750 201950 PRIVMSG #esolangs :brctl: ignoring < 1622000776 202316 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b9875e.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :The "redirects" aren't the IRC-level mode thingies that are automatic. Just a change of topic. < 1622000800 835616 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b9875e.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Incompetence? Or intent to... something? < 1622000828 591309 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: from what I've seen they set +if ##channel too < 1622000829 312588 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b9875e.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't understand why they would force a redirect instead of just forcibly changing the topic, unless they want the new channel to not have all the users < 1622000846 471291 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b9875e.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I guess that doesn't forward people already in channel? < 1622000875 157483 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's because they do maintain the distinction between project channels and about channels < 1622000884 189982 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b9875e.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yep. Just joined and parted a hijacked channel, and got forwarded < 1622000911 389914 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :they just don't clear out current users < 1622001075 696121 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b9875e.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I... still don't get why they're doing it like this. This still forces a split between still connected idlers and people who rejoin < 1622001185 415939 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b9875e.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :brctl: unignore Sgeo > 1622001185 415997 PRIVMSG #esolangs :brctl: unignoring < 1622001380 729810 :Soni!~quassel@autistic.space PRIVMSG #esolangs :cd: you want good trolling? :p < 1622001403 481654 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :Soni: I am super out of ideas and the chat moves at the speed of sound < 1622001414 151947 :Soni!~quassel@autistic.space PRIVMSG #esolangs :cd: https://github.com/propuke/ctcp-s < 1622001432 407380 :Soni!~quassel@autistic.space PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this may or may not be a good idea. also we hid the original repo.) < 1622001458 641837 :Soni!~quassel@autistic.space PRIVMSG #esolangs :(... also this fork's owner is a bit of a stalker but eh w/e) < 1622001545 663252 :Soni!~quassel@autistic.space PRIVMSG #esolangs :(oh yeah this is the old version with GZIP and C-like macros) < 1622001681 257006 :Soni!~quassel@autistic.space PRIVMSG #esolangs :(honestly not proud of this one tbh) < 1622001869 930622 :Soni!~quassel@autistic.space PRIVMSG #esolangs :(actually the "C-like" macros may be turing-complete?) < 1622002282 782851 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 JOIN :#esolangs < 1622002492 40954 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :FORWARD might be a good idea; the rest I don't like. (Also, GZIP is bad because it requires the client software to implement it. Ideally, no special client software should be needed for IRC; such things should be optional.) < 1622002600 280504 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b9875e.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :brctl: ignore Sgeo > 1622002600 280546 PRIVMSG #esolangs :brctl: ignoring < 1622002601 857574 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b9875e.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :-rasengan- [Global Notice] In the recent policy enforcement, some channels were erroneously included. We greatly apologize for the inconvenience. Please contact us in #freenode-services or contact-us@freenode.net. Thanks for your patience and choosing freenode! < 1622002667 525801 :pikhq!sid394595@id-394595.highgate.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :like i believe that < 1622002801 802345 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's christian. < 1622002807 374250 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sin, then ask for forgiveness. < 1622002812 566487 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(scnr) < 1622002904 531699 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :This is a bit of a weird association, really, but I like this joke: "When I was a kid, I used to pray for a bicycle. For months I prayed, every day. Then I realized that God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness." < 1622003403 171539 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :hehehe < 1622003496 888247 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b9875e.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder what would have happened to a channel of people sticking with Freenode who happened to be promoting the music group Libera in their topic < 1622003540 114582 :Soni!~quassel@autistic.space PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: that's part of the point in this case :p < 1622003564 418892 :Soni!~quassel@autistic.space PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi pikhq < 1622003698 637104 :Soni!~quassel@autistic.space PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: if you want to be extra-grating tho, something like https://github.com/bittorrent/bittorrent.org/issues/110 may be of interest < 1622003707 685302 :Soni!~quassel@autistic.space PRIVMSG #esolangs ::) < 1622003782 165165 :pikhq!sid394595@id-394595.highgate.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi soni < 1622004308 915042 :Soni!~quassel@autistic.space PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: we guess you could implement all of this on an IRC client, but make it only available on irc.com networks? < 1622004359 805066 :Soni!~quassel@autistic.space PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, we should go sleep, sorry. good night o/ < 1622004385 268719 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Soni: That is a possibility, but I recommend not using them anyways. < 1622004898 815633 :xkapastel!uid17782@id-17782.tinside.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1622004976 64663 :dcristofani!~dcristofa@69-71-183-170.mammothnetworks.com JOIN :#esolangs < 1622005232 638027 :craigo!~craigo@180-150-37-63.b49625.bne.nbn.aussiebb.net JOIN :#esolangs < 1622007909 682205 :dcristofani!~dcristofa@69-71-183-170.mammothnetworks.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1622009183 689384 :sknebel!~quassel@v22016013254630973.happysrv.de JOIN :#esolangs < 1622009255 323699 :sknebel!~quassel@v22016013254630973.happysrv.de QUIT :Client Quit < 1622009268 544315 :dcristofani!~dcristofa@69-71-183-170.mammothnetworks.com JOIN :#esolangs < 1622009277 606499 :sknebel!~quassel@v22016013254630973.happysrv.de JOIN :#esolangs < 1622009566 526113 :dcristofani!~dcristofa@69-71-183-170.mammothnetworks.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1622010108 688864 :FuckAndrewLee!~imode@user/imode NICK :imode < 1622010796 516711 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cd: that's a good one, they kickbanned everyone from the existing channels, that will get a lot of people notice that something happened and get them moving < 1622010836 235622 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :" i feel like they'd notice the sudden total redirection of all the channels to ## under new management tho" => not really that, more like that suddenly there are much fewer people on > 1622010891 706915 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Community portal14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83438&oldid=83223 5* 03B jonas 5* (-13) 10 < 1622011039 671035 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :keegan: unclear, he might want to just destroy the network completely (without directly stating that) and driving people to competitor forums that he has interest in more secretly < 1622012024 45966 :dcristofani!~dcristofa@69-71-183-170.mammothnetworks.com JOIN :#esolangs < 1622012416 416292 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least if he wanted to destroy freenode, he had the courtsey of doing it quickly rather than having communities wonder if they should stay or find a new place > 1622012855 928129 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SF Code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83439&oldid=83409 5* 03ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) 5* (+226) 10Recategorization < 1622013250 387403 :sebbu2!~sebbu@user/sebbu NICK :sebbu < 1622014096 492009 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: "just forcibly changing the topic" => that would have no effect, because NOBODY READS TOPICS ON IRC. they just used the topic as a quick filter to tell which communities redirect users to other networks in more effective ways. grepping topics is easier to automate than looking at project websites to see which projects changed their links. < 1622014125 233848 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: also, if you feel like my encouragement to make a bridge pressured you, you are hereby absolved, I no longer think a bridge to freenode is helpful < 1622014290 196655 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :fuck freenode < 1622014301 544616 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :they're dead to me < 1622014303 181705 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i told them to eat my balls < 1622014311 444103 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :long live libera < 1622014312 553219 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :`coins < 1622014315 914721 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​06milecoin 13wotioncoin 04limpcoin 07fakcoin 08bfccoin 09smitisorbcoin 02safenfcoin 06nrfcoin 13axicoin 04aaallyidocoin 07dermdrcemecoin 08shakbcoin 09hyphillecoin 02sorthcoin 06codacoin 13ampucoin 04hpndersiopcoin 07nephalcoin 08percardcoin 09igncoin < 1622015401 590485 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :heh, "Leenode" rather than Freenode , via https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27287038 > We should stop implicitly legitimizing Andrew Lee's power grab by referring to his dominion as "Freenode" < 1622015548 269542 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I was just wondering what to rename the network tag of freenode in my irc config so I don't absent-mindedly connect and join it and think I'm correctly connected to IRC < 1622015557 966402 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :will probably still go with something else rather than a cheap pun < 1622016020 913468 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b9875e.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1622016027 744929 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? freenode < 1622016029 524289 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The Realm of Freenode is our homeland. The Chännel dwells in it since... Uhm... Quite a few years ago? < 1622016033 422406 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? libera < 1622016034 819047 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Libera is the land of the future. Probably. < 1622016056 111216 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :The freest of nodes. < 1622016082 250952 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe we can come up with some law < 1622016084 351416 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :lore < 1622016088 844249 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now the leest of nodes? < 1622016089 710639 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :involving a big migration < 1622016123 967542 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the evil tortoise (of shells) < 1622016125 901981 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or something < 1622016273 512080 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(just realised I misunderstood which was the freest... Libera is free-er than freenode, so is freest...) My attempt at a joke needs to be rewritten accordingly < 1622016284 570749 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: evil tortoise? come on, the lore is obvious. the freenode gods pulled off a miracle of setting up a new network in like two days, with several servers, and led us out of Egypt < 1622016395 828113 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Of free nodes, Freenode is leest, Libera is freest? < 1622016437 167094 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? puns < 1622016438 479481 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Puns are fun. Ask shachaf about them. But beware of Muphry adding misspellings. < 1622016442 121735 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: not bad < 1622016538 780441 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1622016830 758847 :p_____!~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer JOIN :#esolangs < 1622016941 319964 :p_____!~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer QUIT :Client Quit < 1622017018 175991 :dyeplexer!~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1622017270 227006 :imode!~imode@user/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1622017319 477508 :dyeplexer!~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer JOIN :#esolangs < 1622019080 143472 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` ruby -e "p 'Libera' > 'Freenode'" < 1622019084 541566 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :true < 1622019098 318673 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` ruby -e "p 'Freenode' > 'Libera'" < 1622019099 327822 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :false < 1622019170 266487 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :> "freenode" > "Libera Chat" -- official names < 1622019171 981539 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : True < 1622019438 515870 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Man, I can't believe this thing was hiding in plain sight in the original van Oorschot & Wiener paper. < 1622019720 259709 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: well, now you know. (and I do as well, for the moment. maybe this time I won't forget where I saw it.) < 1622019765 423481 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think I quite understood what you said about MeetITM, but maybe I should read pages 16-18 more closely and then I'll understand it? < 1622019820 777341 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: just the beginning of the second paragraph < 1622019826 897495 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in section 5.4 < 1622019828 332249 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :5.3 < 1622019898 574960 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :The idea that this algorithm also helps with MeetITM attacks, since they're of this form? < 1622019938 51168 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It just turns out that it's the same problem as you have, but they view it as an MeetITM attack. < 1622020019 916312 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see. I thought you meant there was an application of MeetITM attacks to my problem. < 1622020034 464736 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :But you meant it more in the other direction, or just that they're doing the same thing. < 1622020042 458115 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and my point was that this problem is exactly what you described, wheras in section 5.2 it has a specific form for f and g. < 1622020056 655316 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :*whereas < 1622020069 209130 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The trick is the same, of course. < 1622020127 425809 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right, that makes sense. < 1622020410 883787 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's kind of surprising that e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meet-in-the-middle_attack just claims you need 2^k space. < 1622020426 619253 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Presumably anyone implementing this kind of attack uses a fancy trick like this. < 1622021629 292706 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :this "Community-curated" in github repo titles... < 1622021633 399637 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :what does it even mean < 1622021670 114455 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :they always have the repo owner who reviews and accepts the pull requests only if he feels so, the same as in any another github repo < 1622021968 562346 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, that was certainly a thing. Wondering if I should make that bridge a one-way affair, just freenode -> here, so that it would mainly serve the purpose of letting people here notice if someone they know comes in wondering about what's up. (Up until `freenodecom` comes in and forcibly redirects it to ##esoteric, of course, at which point I don't think I'd bother.) < 1622021987 319544 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :what even more funny is that you could say "well the pull requests should probably pass the CI checks", but nope -- the https://github.com/github/explore/commits/main has the ./script/cibuild script but they don't have CI, lol -- this script threw errors that they fixed only 11 hours ago < 1622022104 284477 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :not that it amazes me in any way because I already saw an amazing shit done by github staff < 1622022231 417913 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :one of their guys took the whole course code of my gem and replaced the source code of another gem on github, not changing the name, nor giving any credits -- just copypoasted the whole code over, with mistakes, and made a pull request -- at first I thought it's someone drunk or indian but nope, he had the "Github staff" badge < 1622022241 686464 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*source < 1622022297 647420 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :though still could be drunk < 1622022325 381123 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie I think the bridge gives people on freenode know that libera exists < 1622022337 644056 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that we are active here < 1622022349 243372 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*makes people < 1622022371 338207 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, it's just there's a number of people who I think prefer not to get their comments forwarded over there. But fair enough, I guess it still does that even if there's odd gaps in the conversation. < 1622022381 889171 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like lambdabot just saying "True" out of the blue. ;) < 1622022431 815867 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol < 1622022440 763231 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :/!\ fungot: Please pretend like you've suddenly gained the capability of spontaeneous action? < 1622022440 811489 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: disenchanter: ask not, as opposed to the nether world, the chalk pencil, and without a mother. she is usually heard or seen in profile, the demon lord. inhabited or not, have very detailed short-term plans for it had been very upset to find if hearts be wild and wise. < 1622022455 811089 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :In retrospect, I think that wasn't the best ^style for that. < 1622022542 317175 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so on freenode it looks like a demon lord took a control over him > 1622022576 364420 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07While(true)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83440&oldid=83400 5* 03Aonodensetsu 5* (+0) 10/* Quirks */ < 1622022592 129475 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh here we go > 1622022611 611868 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07While(true)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83441&oldid=83440 5* 03Aonodensetsu 5* (+0) 10/* External resources */ < 1622024503 169401 :p_____!~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer JOIN :#esolangs < 1622024552 70791 :p_____!~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer QUIT :Client Quit < 1622024553 682792 :dyeplexer!~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1622024759 158188 :Deepfriedice!~Deepfried@60-241-43-208.static.tpgi.com.au JOIN :#esolangs < 1622025170 199870 :Trieste!~T@217.138.220.196 QUIT :Changing host < 1622025170 199913 :Trieste!~T@user/pilgrim JOIN :#esolangs < 1622025243 216467 :Trieste!~T@user/pilgrim QUIT :Quit: Be well! < 1622025356 801393 :Trieste!~T@user/pilgrim JOIN :#esolangs > 1622025563 528317 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Goatoo14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83442&oldid=83421 5* 03DynCoder 5* (+139) 10 > 1622025646 32317 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Sertdfyguhi14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83443&oldid=81241 5* 03Sertdfyguhi 5* (-27) 10update < 1622027397 54386 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :is there any website that provides a ""community driven" " catalogue of irc channels? < 1622027471 330485 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean only those who already can IRC know about /list, and even they don't immediately know about alis, etc., it would be nice to have some guide over your possible places of interests if you are not in IRC yet < 1622027587 999781 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's not a *curated* list, but there's always https://netsplit.de/channels/?net=libera.chat and such. < 1622027591 349505 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's kind of flaky in what it displays, though. < 1622027975 596668 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi Am Dm6 G F#add9 Fm7 C6 G what do you think? < 1622028753 482462 :craigo!~craigo@180-150-37-63.b49625.bne.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :Read error: No route to host > 1622030086 331826 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Community portal14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83444&oldid=83183 5* 03Fizzie 5* (+1304) 10/* Freenode and the future */ Last call for objections. < 1622030137 990674 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esolangs < 1622030156 995781 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@de1.hashbang.sh JOIN :#esolangs < 1622030242 622773 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie it doesn't provide a tree/tags cataloging < 1622030274 594191 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv you mean q3dm6? < 1622030323 7550 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :don’t know what q3 is < 1622030342 709389 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :shame on you < 1622030409 322433 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, a Quake map. Didn’t play Quake :) < 1622030432 585349 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I meant the chord D F A B < 1622030446 325413 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :from an alis topic search on freenode, there are at least a few channels that still advertise in the topic that they moved to libera, but there are also some that advertise that they moved to oftc or hackint < 1622030741 198141 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Are they #channels or ##channels? Although I don't doubt there's exceptions. < 1622030762 967346 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv it's in this classic video starting at 4:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg9RVktBNMA < 1622031023 309539 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: "community-curated" means that is the software is buggy or badly designed, the maintainer don't accept blame, because it was "the community" that maintained it wrong, according to them < 1622031802 188941 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: for libera, only ## and ## channels I think < 1622031829 427751 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well no\ < 1622031833 370674 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm wrong < 1622031871 240417 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: there are #-channels too, like freenode/#archlinux-security, that say moved to libera in topic < 1622031941 772525 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not attempting to tell how many large channels have such notices in topic, because it's hard to tell how large a channel is when it's moved away, and I don't have historic data < 1622031963 968012 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe they changed to that after the big sweep? Or just were missed. Or got their channel back: #go-nuts on freenode was "recovered", and now says "see for official support channels" in topic, which is one way to put it. < 1622031989 59660 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: yes, they probably changed the topic again after the big sweep. they probably have nothing to lose by changing it again. < 1622032000 201252 :dyeplexer!~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer JOIN :#esolangs < 1622032061 628011 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Incidentally, on freenode we have ##esoteric set as `+if #esoteric` owned by tswett (who's moved from IRC to Matrix, I think) -- I wonder what would've happened if we had had Libera in the topic. < 1622032073 425481 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Given the nature of the channel, I think the best-case scenario (as in, for maximum absurdity) would've been that we'd have have both #esoteric and ##esoteric as invite-only and both forwarding to each other. < 1622032091 149777 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I guess more plausibly they would have reset the modes of ##esoteric to open it up. < 1622032146 472477 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"see for official support channels" => yeah, that's harder to object against, freenode historically had extra channels where the official channel was on another network: ##rust before mozilla irc got shut down, and #gimp or ##gimp (can't recall which) > 1622032165 994617 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Goatoo14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83445&oldid=83442 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+71) 10/* Language Overview */ Categories < 1622032187 825127 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :plus of course such a topic can refer to non-irc forums (though it's less likely to say "channels") for the large number of projects that don't consider the freenode presence official > 1622032223 934409 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SF Code14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83446&oldid=83439 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+0) 10Move cats to bottom < 1622032235 4699 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"both #esoteric and ##esoteric as invite-only and both forwarding to each other" lol, that would be funny indeed < 1622032378 350751 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Move cats to bottom" <- herding cats, I see. < 1622032395 211245 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, cats as in categories; I was assuming examples of the cat program. < 1622032541 545453 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :there should be a language about cats < 1622032636 660208 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh I see https://esolangs.org/wiki/CAT > 1622032782 214782 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Nakilon14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83447&oldid=81104 5* 03Nakilon 5* (+28) 10added Libera < 1622032949 272077 :Guest54!~Guest54@bras-base-okvlon3013w-grc-30-70-54-80-222.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esolangs < 1622032963 446237 :Guest54!~Guest54@bras-base-okvlon3013w-grc-30-70-54-80-222.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :brctl: help > 1622032963 446283 PRIVMSG #esolangs :brctl: see "brctl: help ignore" (filter by nick) and "brctl: help filter" (filter by text content) for the two available commands < 1622032976 137478 :Guest54!~Guest54@bras-base-okvlon3013w-grc-30-70-54-80-222.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :brctl: help filter > 1622032976 137516 PRIVMSG #esolangs :brctl: usage: "brctl: filtered" (to list), "brctl: filter regex" (to add) or "brctl: unfilter regex" (to remove) < 1622032993 823599 :Guest54!~Guest54@bras-base-okvlon3013w-grc-30-70-54-80-222.dsl.bell.ca QUIT :Client Quit < 1622033002 644644 :FireFly!firefly@user/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :what's a brctl? < 1622033016 718089 :FireFly!firefly@user/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh the bridge < 1622033019 461698 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :bridge something < 1622033076 848194 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I named it after brctl(8), the Linux utility to control Ethernet bridges. < 1622033105 581484 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :("ctl" is presumably short for "control".) < 1622033629 428650 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or cuttle[fish] < 1622033733 496054 :Deepfriedice!~Deepfried@60-241-43-208.static.tpgi.com.au QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1622033997 674693 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :does fungot connect to IRC via some network funge-98 extension or is it another process that connects? < 1622033997 755674 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: they say that a large number, led a semi-independent life of mortals with a curved single-edged blade. its body around in such a way that it was a blade like a hell-broth boil and bubble." the bushmen say that when invoked, it is inescapable once earned. he is small, has dark skin and wears strange clothes. < 1622034022 17885 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :^source < 1622034022 99731 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98 < 1622034222 651372 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it's http://rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#SOCK ? < 1622034228 893814 :xkapastel!uid17782@id-17782.tinside.irccloud.com JOIN :#esolangs < 1622034238 875160 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :Certainly seems possible < 1622034436 618171 :craigo!~craigo@180-150-37-63.b49625.bne.nbn.aussiebb.net JOIN :#esolangs < 1622035093 588843 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, it does the sockets with SOCK. < 1622035104 753910 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Otherwise it'd be cheating. ;) < 1622035134 812710 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/fis/fungot/#running lists the required fingerprints, for the record. < 1622035134 850903 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: dark room? your chance to develop your photographs!' ( brignall banks, by h. rider haggard) < 1622035145 524306 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 QUIT :Quit: Connection closed < 1622035176 707428 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do run a (bip) bouncer between it and the actual network for stability and TLS support, though. < 1622035208 60177 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which also might mean if it's not responding but still online, the cfunge process has crashed but the bouncer hasn't. Not that it's really happened yet. < 1622035220 82354 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :funnily enough, hackbot (hackeso) does use another process (socat) for the connection, making fungot the more advanced bot in that regard < 1622035220 124757 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cd: orion, sirius: orion was the daughter of jupiter and juno. ( capitalized:) a constellation of the king," he said desperately, " one rest") < 1622035245 293514 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :Many years ago when I made Pietbot it cheated because Piet doesn't have network IO < 1622035250 229178 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder how many esolangs do < 1622035250 333682 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :esobot: "It listens for the MediaWiki UDP "recent changes" feed" -- interesting, so the bot listens to the local network for the message? I wish there something similar in web because otherwise you have to reread the whole, let's say, RSS/Atom feed and store somewhere what was the last id you've processed, and then the feeder has to follow the < 1622035250 463427 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :order of items otherwise you have to read them all and sort, etc. etc. < 1622035309 186072 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Otherwise it'd be cheating" -- yeah otherwise it would be no point in writing features in funge is you already have the IRC communicator written in something more trivial and probably extendable < 1622035337 835970 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, MediaWiki can post changes formatted as JSON/XML/"IRC" and post them either as raw UDP or via Redis Pub/Sub. < 1622035373 190253 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgRCFeeds < 1622035405 258059 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I think I just hooked the piet interpreter up to netcat) < 1622035426 59262 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok so this is a silly and esoteric idea, but what if the guy who bought freenode is, besides being rich (which we know) is an eccentric (possibly amateur) social scientist who got intrigued by how even though the covid pandemic destroyed a lot of in person communities, it also made stronger communities quickly formed online and strengthened people's sense of community and caring about each other in < 1622035432 62508 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :general, and wanted to do another experiment to see how this reproduces? < 1622035457 317533 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :That seems... unethical < 1622035480 148747 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :"or via Redis Pub/Sub" -- unfortunately there is no such thing as public pub/sub that websites would provide for random users < 1622035490 318308 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :as an alternative to RSS < 1622035505 971679 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :socat made it possible to use TLS (...well, after updating to a more recent version supporting SNI...), I don't think netcat flavors at least generally support that. < 1622035531 543637 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :unfortunately doesn’t change the fact they need a good smack. (Also isn’t that really unethical) < 1622035537 722628 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :So that nobody can snoop in on HackEso's network password, impersonate it, and thus gain control of mission-critical infrastructure. < 1622035563 230605 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Otherwise it'd be cheating." => um, yes, but there was an ICFP contest judge's prize winner that was written in Metafont and used an external command for the socket connections because apparently Metafont doesn't have a built-in way to do this, and we don't want to say that that one is cheating, so we may let it slide for a befunge program too < 1622035575 960815 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I'm assuming there's mission-critical infrastructure accepting commands from HackEso when it's authenticated to NickServ, which may be a little bit of a stretch.) < 1622035595 324933 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I think it might be OK when the language has no network IO < 1622035614 166140 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, I think that's the distinction. It's not cheating for Piet either, because there's just no way. < 1622035645 32107 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Although arguably that whatever-that-thing-was would have been a more esoteric solution. < 1622035657 674894 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :"strengthened people's sense of community" -- I'm still not sure it was about sense of community rather than hate to Korean nation or that he had a taste to chose the word "Imperial" to his company name < 1622035665 973241 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :That thing that was supposed to provide advanced I/O to brainfuck and other similar single-stdin/out languages. < 1622035745 443777 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: I'm not saying that it's definitely true, but it's a theory that some people seriously mentioned, and so an experiment may make sense < 1622035747 117779 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can't remember the name. Was Sgeo involved with it? Anyway, we talked about it. Not having much luck finding hits on the wiki either. > 1622035790 134414 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Oshaboy 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Hello World Stegfuck.png10]]" < 1622035793 232274 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as in for an independently rich amateur scientist who isn't bound by a university medical ethics community or peer-reviewed journals who will boycott them and make their whole carreer harder < 1622035885 263152 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :people love to join the shitthrowing parties AFTER the real problems already took the place, and don't love to investigate what they were < 1622035985 349359 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :the whole point of "investigation" and "finding the roots, the causes" seems to be not interesting > 1622036069 201398 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Oshaboy 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Cat program stegfuck.png10]]" < 1622036127 947153 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :this mediawiki event doesn't have a link > 1622036151 51571 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Oshaboy 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Lost kingdom StegFuck.png10]]" > 1622036320 518557 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StegFuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83451 5* 03Oshaboy 5* (+1152) 10Initial > 1622036341 256800 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StegFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83452&oldid=83451 5* 03Oshaboy 5* (-7) 10 < 1622036350 17884 :craigo!~craigo@180-150-37-63.b49625.bne.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving > 1622036413 682258 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StegFuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83453&oldid=83452 5* 03Oshaboy 5* (+8) 10 < 1622036552 391759 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh I already started installing netpbm to figure out his steganography but has already created a page > 1622036700 136799 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074BOD14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83454&oldid=83401 5* 03Oshaboy 5* (+78) 10Added information about 1 of the instructions > 1622036881 123857 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StegFuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83455&oldid=83453 5* 03Oshaboy 5* (+2) 10Fixed dead links > 1622036918 516840 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StegFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83456&oldid=83455 5* 03Oshaboy 5* (+0) 10 > 1622036926 694812 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StegFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83457&oldid=83456 5* 03Oshaboy 5* (-4) 10 < 1622038029 474437 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :wtf > 1622038057 622439 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StegFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83458&oldid=83457 5* 03Oshaboy 5* (+406) 10added extra information < 1622038084 103245 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :#homebrew automatically kicks you while ##homebrew topic is Discussion on the domestic production of potable liquids < 1622038087 357714 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :Libera is weird < 1622038090 541975 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :☺ < 1622038208 192464 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Same founder on both, and I guess that's a valid interpretation of the word too... < 1622038246 22906 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :netsplit.de's channel topic view suggests ##homebrew on freenode is also on that topic, and #machomebrew is the package manager. < 1622038270 990030 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :What if I want to run my own software on a Nintendo DS < 1622038275 31766 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh indeed < 1622038339 195858 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :Taneb IIRC it's illegal < 1622038358 721163 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it just voids the warranty and Nintendo doesn't like it > 1622038395 860290 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StegFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83459&oldid=83458 5* 03Oshaboy 5* (+287) 10More details < 1622038409 617050 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I wonder if it's legal to squat the #homebrew just to kick people with macs > 1622038487 184493 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StegFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83460&oldid=83459 5* 03Oshaboy 5* (+9) 10link > 1622038501 667050 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Oshaboy14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83461 5* 03Oshaboy 5* (+4) 10Created page with "Heyo" < 1622038502 162095 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's like... they could not decide who should own #homebrew and made it like this < 1622038555 214181 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :For the *concept* of homebrew on consoles, I think there's at least some more specific channels. But the package manager is just called "Homebrew". I doubt they have any registered trademarks or anything? < 1622038571 357243 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: was it actually called "#homebrew" previously on freenode? < 1622038590 898883 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas have no idea < 1622038592 96 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know there were apple homebrew guys on freenode, but I don't know if they used that particular channel name < 1622038594 477550 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :AFAICT it's been called #machomebrew on freenode. < 1622038601 666202 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :I keep reading that as macho me brew < 1622038606 576659 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think they used multiple channels (no surprised there) < 1622038610 103866 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's #machomebrew now as fizzie said < 1622038621 403134 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :Weightlifters drinking tea < 1622038642 829206 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well that makes sense then < 1622038665 972658 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :presumably the folks on ##homebrew are used to lost people enough that they just direct them to the right place < 1622038669 656201 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the software isn't and probably never was called machomebrew < 1622038677 208374 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :like we used to with the other kind of esoterica < 1622038679 860135 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, that reminds me < 1622038682 253267 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what do we do with the < 1622038683 284149 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`welcome < 1622038687 294201 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) < 1622038687 857017 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :message now? < 1622038689 855458 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The software's official twitter account is @MacHomebrew as well. < 1622038710 13603 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmmm < 1622038723 259971 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I vote just removing the parenthetical < 1622038738 536254 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :We are forwarding #esoteric into here, though. < 1622038740 305453 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Taneb: ok, but it's tricky because there are copies in like ten languages < 1622038746 686107 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: oh yes, you have a point < 1622038756 704766 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: hmm, yeah, in that case it probably ought to stay < 1622038763 314489 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's not impossible that someone will join in search "for the other kind of esoterica", though probably quite unlikely. < 1622038787 659223 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess we'll seen in half a year < 1622038810 93054 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok maybe it was machomebrew initially, I missed that time probably < 1622038829 866195 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :because their twitter is older than @homebrew one < 1622038861 686414 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Now I can't stop reading it as macho-me-brew. < 1622038865 721783 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`thanks Taneb < 1622038866 489605 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thanks, Taneb. Thaneb. < 1622038961 929364 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :`thanks HackEso < 1622038963 40891 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thanks, HackEso. ThackEso. < 1622038984 121326 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :`thanks fizzie < 1622038984 812301 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thanks, fizzie. Thizzie. < 1622038992 441979 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :`thanks brrrrr < 1622038993 539545 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thanks, brrrrr. Trrrrr. < 1622039044 684324 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esolangs ::) < 1622039161 840827 :gilesgate!gilesgate@sdf-eu.org JOIN :#esolangs < 1622039165 7632 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :rust depends on python wtf > 1622039200 849217 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StegFuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83462&oldid=83460 5* 03Oshaboy 5* (+8) 10/* Overview */ < 1622039228 316489 :gilesgate!gilesgate@sdf-eu.org QUIT :Client Quit < 1622039289 735598 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :trying to figure out what to uninstall because homebrew updates EVERYTHING once in a while and it took half an hour; and I have no idea why two commands from SO to "draw a dependency tree" are so different but python is like covid here... https://dpaste.org/416M/slim#L < 1622039552 560032 :zegalch96!~zegalch@178.128.75.133 JOIN :#esolangs < 1622039573 395159 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: doesn't everything depend on python < 1622039578 320579 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :rustc uses it for it's build < 1622039586 660966 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :a pre-built rustc doesn't need it < 1622039641 134207 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ruby doesn't use it < 1622039641 729649 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :also... why isntall rustc through homebrew. < 1622039645 987635 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :*install < 1622039651 413732 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :rustup exists < 1622039668 390298 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :and? what does ruby have to do with rustc < 1622039682 980233 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :these are all needed to build ruby https://dpaste.org/416M/slim#L2281,2282,2283,2284,2285,2286 < 1622039709 140335 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :why install through different package managers if there is one? < 1622039727 473018 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :everything installs with brew < 1622039748 178438 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :because rustup is specifically for rust, and manages the toolchain. among other things it's basically the only way to install nightly versions and cross compiler versions of rustc < 1622039791 848641 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :also why build from source? python is only needed if you build it from source :P < 1622039798 530590 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :why do you think I need "to manage rust toolchain"? < 1622039818 625208 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION confused themselves
< 1622039835 859235 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh if you're not using rust for anything you don't, that's my bad. < 1622039856 831534 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you're writing rust rustup is recommended, otherwise you can ignore it unless your package manager ships a hilariously old rustc < 1622039869 666415 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :"brew install rust" somehow was enough to then "rust install ..." or whatever it was to install some rust program that btw I'll probably deinstall now since I don't remember it even < 1622039911 457489 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :ubuntu is shipping a rustc from october last year... ;I < 1622039922 93344 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I didn't build rust from source and this "tree draw" command just fakes it < 1622039940 892398 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea, i checked, rust prebuilt has no python dept < 1622039955 737421 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :basically homebrew downloads everything precompiled for my current mac os version < 1622039984 948833 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://dpaste.org/416M/slim#L2281,2282,2283,2284,2285,2286,6384,6385,6386,6387,6388 < 1622039995 390831 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess this means right side is more correct < 1622040116 150923 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b9875e.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esolangs < 1622040184 454609 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see, "This is similar to Ruby's rbenv, Python's pyenv, or Node's nvm." -- rustup docs < 1622040218 746770 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :(nvm is actually was a clone of rvm, not rbenv but whatever) < 1622040252 139425 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea, it's an env manager < 1622040353 48339 :dcristofani!~dcristofa@69-71-183-170.mammothnetworks.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1622040404 152465 :cd!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony NICK :moon < 1622042110 401565 :Guest61!~Guest61@78-63-33-154.static.zebra.lt JOIN :#esolangs < 1622042122 653807 :Guest61!~Guest61@78-63-33-154.static.zebra.lt PART :#esolangs < 1622042761 946823 :Soni!~quassel@autistic.space QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1622043470 514062 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I hoped the visualization would make the tree more obvious, heh https://imgur.com/a/yclpTkR < 1622043540 496052 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Judging by what that looks like, that must be neato/fdp. Do it with dot instead: it'll be a lot more obvious, but a gigantic and full of blank space. < 1622043555 618486 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :btw java has made "jenv" too now < 1622043569 984600 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: there's two images there and the first one looks dotty < 1622043572 181026 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie dot is upper one < 1622043606 335667 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: can you get it to drop edges implied by transitivity < 1622043627 620753 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sorry, I think the rectangle for it was shaped too much like an ad banner and I was blind to it. ;) < 1622043669 596897 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :would be cool if there was a built-in graphviz filter that would concat "nodes that have the same set of ins and outs" with "\n" into a single node < 1622043704 586904 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :Taneb I didn't process the graph myself, it's https://github.com/martido/homebrew-graph < 1622043806 409594 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah < 1622043825 271137 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I seem to remember a force-directed graph vizualizer you could manually "shake" to untangle it, and then freeze the result, but I don't remember where that was. That's the kind of human/machine hybrid algorithms we need more of. (To convince the machines to keep us around.) < 1622043851 472262 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe one day they can 3D print that out of springs and you can try to physically sort it out. < 1622043906 423028 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :did I tell about the "reconstruct cats" contest? < 1622043975 440421 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :there was such contest on codeforces where there were thousands of shredded cat pics and you had to restore them; so IIRC lots of guys in top were making hybrids that you could "shake" a cat < 1622044002 634553 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :unfortunately I can't code GUI < 1622044022 148101 :Soni!~quassel@autistic.space JOIN :#esolangs < 1622044042 890006 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so my cats mostly looked like this https://codeforces.com/predownloaded/6f/ed/6feddc5ed6240a9e1e61b4b089c00e796bda163d.png < 1622044070 702336 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it would be pretty much real to process all the cats because the contest lasted a month < 1622044097 31529 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: how do you even scan shredded photos? that sounds very hard < 1622044123 683857 :zgrep!~zgrep@user/zgrep QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1622044142 608627 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas they were accurately sliced in NxN pixels depending on the dataset < 1622044183 828959 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, so digitally shredded to nice square blocks < 1622044201 320000 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Speaking of scanning, my former university had scanned my Master's thesis and sent me a link to verify it looks like what I wrote (+ a checkbox for e-publishing permissions). < 1622044225 848799 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :All the pages were there, but there was a pretty noticeable broad brown smear exactly vertically across each page. < 1622044229 766341 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: nice, when is that Master's thesis from? didn't you already make it full digital? < 1622044230 117099 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas yeah < 1622044233 471739 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think they need to clean their scanning machine. < 1622044255 133579 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :but what demotivated me and I stopped solving prematurely -- is that the chunks had resize kernel artifacts < 1622044272 735581 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :the squares didn't connect ideally < 1622044280 838563 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :there were bright and dark lines along the edges < 1622044298 708429 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think when I submitted my Master's thesis, they asked for a digital copy, and I published a digital copy in any case. I'm not sure if that was like mandatory, or if people were still allowed to make it partly non-digitally though. < 1622044333 135349 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it was their fault actually -- they could resize and then cut but they cut and then resized < 1622044337 14131 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: *I* made it digitally (of course), but even though it wasn't that long time ago (2009), it still predated their process revamp of accepting digital submissions, so the official approved version is the printed and bound book. < 1622044358 182004 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think post-2015 or so the official copy of record will have been the digital version. < 1622044368 429982 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I mean in my case the main copies were still printed and bound, but they asked a digital copy in addition < 1622044378 785300 :zgrep!~zgrep@user/zgrep JOIN :#esolangs < 1622044396 763619 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :which makes sense, it's a pretty free and useful thing to do to ask for a digital copy < 1622044421 307554 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't have a thesis < 1622044422 536694 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, the FAQ of the scanning project said something about how they can't accept a better-quality digital version because for reasons™ the thing available in their database must be exactly what was inspected for approval. < 1622044428 578133 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I didn't finish the university < 1622044444 749020 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :was expelled for inability to run damn 3km in time < 1622044509 269982 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well yes, admittedly I also don't have the original version on public internet either, I have the version with the exactly one typo that I found a few months later fixed < 1622044563 363629 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :My thesis was awful and I kind of wish I had the opportunity to try again < 1622044588 298541 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do not have a copy to hand < 1622044732 679426 :spirgel_!~spirgel@89.238.150.172 JOIN :#esolangs < 1622044751 479281 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well sure, my thesis is bad too < 1622044758 924932 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :most people's master's thesis is < 1622044785 802110 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :Mine especially so, I was not having a good time mental health wise and sought help way too late < 1622044805 699394 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :So handed in 12 pages of rubbish and somehow passed > 1622045303 565512 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Alee 5* 10New user account > 1622045423 587865 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83463&oldid=83436 5* 03Alee 5* (+88) 10/* Introductions */ > 1622045449 629770 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Alee14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83464 5* 03Alee 5* (+13) 10write intro < 1622045633 546622 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :AIUI I could put any version I like on the public web if I want (not that I think anyone would find it very interesting), this was specifically the university wanting to make their library's publication archive ("full text materials produced in the university, such as theses, journal articles, conference publications and research") include this old stuff too, I think covering all theses from 1960-2015 or < 1622045639 538272 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :so. < 1622045646 68663 :imode!~imode@user/imode JOIN :#esolangs < 1622045650 992605 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The FAQ also says something about it freeing up valuable archival space, which might be the real motivation here. < 1622045861 182045 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1622045944 138595 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river JOIN :#esolangs > 1622046822 230952 PRIVMSG #esolangs : So i guess everyone is on libera > 1622047017 314036 PRIVMSG #esolangs : they forced me! < 1622047784 772263 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: yeah. old thesis are one of the hardest to find references to track down in libraries, though that's usually about PhD thesis, and they want to continue that tradition > 1622048111 145598 PRIVMSG #esolangs : If your #channel wasn't `+spimf ##channel`d by freenodecom, it doesn't count as forcing. ;) > 1622048130 397325 PRIVMSG #esolangs : I really would like to know what their tooling would have done given that ##esoteric is already +f #esoteric here, but I guess there's bound to have been a lot of those channels, so it was probably accounted for. < 1622048394 436838 :pikhq!sid394595@id-394595.highgate.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wouldn't be so sure < 1622048963 676339 :Soni!~quassel@autistic.space PRIVMSG #esolangs :we did opt out of the bridge yeah? < 1622049060 789324 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :brctl: ignored > 1622049060 789370 PRIVMSG #esolangs :brctl: Ignore list: freenode/V freenode/shachaf libera/Sgeo libera/Soni libera/V libera/cd libera/imode libera/int-e libera/shachaf < 1622049079 294116 :Soni!~quassel@autistic.space PRIVMSG #esolangs :okay ^^ < 1622049149 151240 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course if you mention fungot people on the other side may see that you're here < 1622049149 243690 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: they say that a hacker named david once slew a giant. he was such a shabby monk to dinner? he invites the very devil, a founding member of the yellowish linen whereof those of the triumph of morgoth elves and men were allies and held aloft the sacred icon. the denticles on its skin muted the whoosh of its body around in such a shabby monk to dinner? he invites the very devil, an army general invited the buddhist monk, mo < 1622049164 147349 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and some other bots) < 1622049177 838 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can also have it ignore all mentions of your name, which is not going to be at all confusing. < 1622049188 527922 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Though I'm not sure how long we'll be keeping the bridge for. < 1622049205 385717 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :why bother keeping it. < 1622049381 225572 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the main argument for is, it's a way to let any returning old-time regulars (who might have missed all the excitement) to know about this place. We do get some every now and then. Though it's discoverable via other means (wiki, logs page) too. < 1622049479 24310 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :excitement < 1622049557 380926 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :\rasel "!evila m'I"..........@/!\ < 1622049565 582542 :velik!~velik@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :output: "73 39 109 32 97 108 105 118 101 33 ", exit code: 0 < 1622049570 637320 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :damn < 1622049636 987385 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The word EVILAPEEK_OS appears in that noisy bot's source code (in the error message if setting SO_KEEPALIVE fails). < 1622049822 220835 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :enough amount of funge code might have all the magic words you need to spawn something evil < 1622050202 866103 :V!~v@anomalous.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :would it be possible to have the bridge ignore list not mass-highlight every time it's requested? ^^' < 1622050224 934979 :V!~v@anomalous.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :just print which networks you're hidden from, etc < 1622050259 907746 :Soni!~quassel@autistic.space PRIVMSG #esolangs :... oh yeah that is an issue < 1622050287 488761 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :privmsg it < 1622050292 282230 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :or notice < 1622050299 176164 :Soni!~quassel@autistic.space PRIVMSG #esolangs :doesn't help that your nick can't be split with hidden codepoints tho < 1622050431 371673 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I need the ignore list to be printable in order to copy it back to the config file because persistence is hard. ;) I can make the bridge commands respond by privmsg, I made them public mostly so that people can learn how it works by osmosis. Also, if we don't keep the bridge up it'll also stop being a problem. < 1622050544 196995 :Soni!~quassel@autistic.space PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah we're hoping it gets shut down in the next 3 weeks... > 1622050697 343321 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SF Code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83465&oldid=83446 5* 03JaydenIrwin 5* (+42) 10updated toggle description > 1622050874 184138 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SF Code14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83466&oldid=83465 5* 03JaydenIrwin 5* (+92) 10sf symbols link < 1622051447 122797 :spirgel_!~spirgel@89.238.150.172 QUIT : < 1622051676 542157 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Even on news.software.readers they write about abandoning Freenode (for the IRC about slrn), too. < 1622051806 804922 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that the bridge could be discarded soon, and the logs then being fully on this IRC only. I don't know how soon; that is up to whoever set it up < 1622051917 263188 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :imgur refused to eat these images now < 1622051920 274892 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://imgchest.com/p/pagyvmeky89 < 1622051980 778563 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so joining them in groups gave no much profit < 1622052054 832096 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm, actually those huge groups in the corner don't look right < 1622052058 289822 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :bug < 1622052349 423231 :imode!~imode@user/imode NICK :rasengone < 1622052492 582936 :rasengone!~imode@user/imode NICK :imode < 1622052544 395071 :imode!~imode@user/imode NICK :rasengone < 1622052663 682889 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 JOIN :#esolangs < 1622052838 506558 :dyeplexer!~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1622052881 343071 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: I expect the proposed "remove edges implied by transitivity" (while not exactly trivial to express) trick could help declutter the dot version more, since it's particularly those edges that are a problem. Though it's not exactly representing the same thing at that point, because there's a difference in directly depending on something vs. transitively depending on something. < 1622052922 702564 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie I'm afraid I don't really understand the "remove edges implied by transitivity" < 1622052954 241373 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I didn't have master thesis ..D < 1622052958 753920 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: Well, for example, your graph has the edges vips -> libexif, libeexif -> gettext but also vips -> gettext. < 1622052974 761569 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :That last edge could be removed, because vips -> gettext is implied by the first two. < 1622052982 248519 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, I see < 1622053017 979309 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It may or may not really help enough to be worth the trouble, and again it'd give a bit of a skewed picture. < 1622053021 497858 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll do that after I finish this one < 1622053066 702449 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Because removing the edge makes the output imply if you make vips no longer depend on libexif, it doesn't need a gettext dependency either, which isn't true.) < 1622053410 834351 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :IME, in large build dependency graphs an interesting way to get still-understandable output is to focus on the question "why exactly does building X depend on Y" (where you pick a particular pair X, Y of interest), and then find all the edges and nodes that are in any path between those two, and keep only those. It gives you a visual indication of whether it's just one weird dependency in the wrong place < 1622053416 827887 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's pulling the rest in, or whether it's something more systematic. < 1622053726 308528 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 QUIT :Quit: sorry about my connection < 1622053737 222881 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 JOIN :#esolangs < 1622053786 97562 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :seems like datastructure {node->[node, node, ...], node->[ .. ], ...} sucks < 1622053810 412516 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :is that a freenode pun < 1622053815 395993 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :gotta convert it do [[node1, node2], [node1, node3], ... ] < 1622053860 107490 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 NICK :callforjudgement < 1622053874 925670 :callforjudgement!~ais523@213.205.242.249 NICK :ais523 < 1622054041 748625 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 QUIT :Quit: going to restart my IRC client to make sure it's configured correctly < 1622054060 247779 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 JOIN :#esolangs < 1622054207 489654 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 QUIT :Client Quit < 1622054226 267718 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 JOIN :#esolangs > 1622056108 763385 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:CatCatDeluxe14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83467&oldid=80754 5* 03CatCatDeluxe 5* (-4) 10 > 1622056120 780098 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:CatCatDeluxe14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83468&oldid=83467 5* 03CatCatDeluxe 5* (+1) 10 < 1622056147 488521 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :looks like #help here now is a place for politics and shit < 1622056196 930782 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not saying they ircops don't help when someone asks; I mean the channel looks opened for flame currently < 1622056238 932372 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's a #help? < 1622056241 858519 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The *help* channel is supposed to be #libera, that's what the topic of #help says. < 1622056257 946858 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Though #libera is, unsurprisingly, full of the same sort of discussions. < 1622056275 826913 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I'm just there to lurk to get some idea about the community registration queue.) < 1622056291 889470 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It is a hot topic. ##freenode is taking the worst of it anyway. < 1622056552 998691 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :could anyone advice something on representing all generalized circles (so, lines and circles) uniformly? Let’s say I have a thing which applies inversions to them and it shouldn’t try to distinguish lines from circles (and use different algorithms and representations: we’re dealing with floating point, that’d be a wrong decision!) < 1622056666 539450 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :what? < 1622056764 348370 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I heard something about conformal embedding or like that but I don’t know where to read something clear about that. Like projective or affine stuff goes one dimension higher, this one should (if I’m not mistaken) go up two. And there’s something with null cone and projecting parabolas from it to lines and I’m afraid of that all and don’t want to rediscover it at all < 1622056823 807810 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: do you represent some line and circle segments in your Möbius visualizations BTW? < 1622056861 359273 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my context is the same: I think about applying Möbius transformations to generalized circles in a safe and rational manner < 1622056910 879329 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :would we go up a dimension, I’d need to make something about generalized spheres too < 1622056926 518258 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thankfully I’m not that greedy yet! < 1622056954 621879 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh right I’ll go frighten ##math < 1622056958 885062 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: no, there's just coordinates < 1622056960 891949 :rasengone!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: alright, I'll bite. generalized circles? < 1622056971 762948 :rasengone!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :isn't that just a single value in all dimensions, distance? < 1622056980 17108 :rasengone!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :i.e radius. < 1622057010 453710 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a02:8106:215:3300:e7ad:5ab7:4ea0:e177 JOIN :#esolangs < 1622057081 786097 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :rasengone: even in the circle case, we need to specify not just radius, but also its center. A line needs two points. But these ways aren’t unified at all < 1622057107 8207 :Soni!~quassel@autistic.space PRIVMSG #esolangs :rasen-GAN is a funny name < 1622057120 191917 :rasengone!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: that's interesting. < 1622057130 896556 :rasengone!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :are lines not special cases of circles? < 1622057141 450886 :rasengone!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :where the cut point is specified. < 1622057208 277065 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in geometries which admit inversion (like this Möbius group) they are all the same, of course, but that doesn’t help by itself, it just reinforces the desire to represent them unified < 1622057303 890821 :rasengone!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :well that's the thing, you can specify them by two points, still. < 1622057316 394834 :rasengone!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :or three, rather. < 1622057330 932031 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that won’t be unique < 1622057337 590600 :rasengone!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :lemme think about this. < 1622057338 987791 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though that might be a good start < 1622057342 445685 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel there’s no way around that conformal cone stuff but I don’t want to google it potentially for hours < 1622057366 780122 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas adviced a neat projective book but it’s just about that < 1622057724 652451 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :now grouping looks correct https://i.postimg.cc/LmccZFTV/image.png and https://i.postimg.cc/6KcBFTzJ/image.png < 1622057739 710423 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :but dot render became larger < 1622058100 433788 :rasengone!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: what if you used a space-filling loop. < 1622058113 97912 :rasengone!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :and defined lines as normalized segments of that loop. < 1622058125 943605 :rasengone!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :dunno, just spitballing. < 1622058544 332990 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :rasengone: hm < 1622058595 748984 :rasengone!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :everything is either a line or a circle. < 1622058746 654948 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :BTW I suddenly think I realized the basic principle there! I read something like that in physics books, the conformal geometry of the sky sphere or something. So it I get that as they intended, we take the null cone that’s alright. But then we treat null lines in it as points, like we did with projective geometry, but in this case just those lines and no other ones. They are the points of the sky sphere, it transforms conformally under Lorentz transf < 1622058746 854036 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ormations (which fix the null cone) < 1622058776 748620 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and now we stereographically project that sky sphere onto a plane < 1622058776 949554 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bam it’s the plane which we want to describe < 1622058845 219098 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though I don’t yet have stereographic transform sufficiently internalized. It’s hard to me to work with it, to write anything at all in linear algebra terms < 1622058859 940664 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also opened that projective book, maybe it contains some clues too! < 1622058931 700427 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the idea “sky sphere → stereographic projection” seems palatable though. And I’m almost sure that is what I seek; circles on the sphere map to generalized circles on the plane < 1622058987 894893 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I came up with 3 algorithms for the "transitive reduction" but all they fuck up the rhombuses < 1622058996 961091 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and they can grow and shrink and so any single gen. circle can map to any other gen. circle, which should be possible, a sanity check < 1622059009 716195 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: do you do something with graphs? < 1622059018 609121 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry didn’t logread < 1622059056 600516 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv guys proposed to apply transitive reduction to https://i.imgur.com/MV6S0BH.png < 1622059225 17601 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@de1.hashbang.sh QUIT :Quit: tech_exorcist < 1622059241 914800 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: ah, reasonable! To get something like whatsitcalled… someone’s diagram. Hasse, I think. That name wouldn’t help, though, that’s just for completeness. Have you considered an algorithm which tries to assign levels to nodes and then layout them based on those levels? < 1622059300 688846 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it seems that may work poorly though, conflating ways to layout almost independent nodes < 1622059490 688793 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I can breadth-first traverse down from each node discarding all edges that were walked on previous layers during this starting node iteration < 1622059563 732899 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*discarding edges to the nodes that were reached on previous layers > 1622059573 348689 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Unsquare14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83469&oldid=83417 5* 03Bangyen 5* (+102) 10/* Examples */ > 1622059640 502535 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SF Code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83470&oldid=83466 5* 03JaydenIrwin 5* (+201) 10link and overflow info < 1622059676 116004 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv was it undersdtandable? ..D < 1622059932 974739 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: yep, I was away for a bit < 1622059956 957265 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :seems like a good idea which I would try too < 1622060435 910455 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I prefer to not have too many dependencies in computer programs that I write, and sometimes things that are small enough can be included with the program. Sometimes there are some indirect dependencies and sometimes they can be changed to avoid some of them < 1622060502 426794 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I try to avoid dependencies that have too many dependencies of their own < 1622060511 229996 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it seems too likely that something could go wrong in the supply chain somewhere < 1622060531 391360 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :along similar lines, I think libraries should try to minimize the number of dependencies they have (this is probably an argument for programming languages to have large standard libraries) < 1622060789 675983 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's maybe also an argument for programming language ecosystems to have (at least de-facto) standard dependency management solutions, so that people can converge on a set of popular dependencies. (But it's also a *counterargument* for that, because it makes it too easy to have dependencies.) < 1622060854 186206 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I like Bazel in the sense that it's really pretty annoying to have external dependencies, especially "large" ones (that themselves depend on other things), so you naturally avoid it. But people are trying to "fix" that property. < 1622060971 986133 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 QUIT :Quit: sorry about my connection < 1622061032 944954 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 JOIN :#esolangs < 1622061033 177341 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1622061055 683738 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 JOIN :#esolangs < 1622061056 916574 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, I try to avoid too many indirect dependencies too < 1622061095 57833 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :with Rust/Cargo, it can be a particular problem because many of the de-facto agreed upon dependencies are unstable < 1622061109 522711 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and some even have transitive dependencies with big warnings saying things like "not for production use" < 1622061126 472559 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :" b_jonas adviced a neat projective book but it’s just about that < 1622061202 937053 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :" b_jonas adviced a neat projective book but it’s just about that" => do you mean Jürgen ichter-Gerbert, "Perspectives on Projective Geometry", (2011) Springer? that's probably the most relevant, but I may have recommended some of my other geometry books too < 1622061204 829236 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Here's the full transitive dependency tree of the esolangs bot and the logs web server, on the Bazel cc_* target level: https://zem.fi/tmp/esodeps.png < 1622061210 438447 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :incidentally, apparently higher-kinded trait bounds are now stable in Rust? < 1622061226 44927 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, higher-ranked < 1622061226 714694 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sometimes there may be the hope to fix it in future. TeXnicard currently depends on Ghostscript, although I would hope that in future a different FOSS implementation of level 3 PostScript could be substituted, and that the program could then still work. (It does'nt even use many of the features of Ghostscript, so a simpler implementation, perhaps called "PSlite", could be done maybe) < 1622061251 946797 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was having trouble getting a trait of mine to work, so in frustration I tried "for<'a> AddAssign<&'a Self>" as a trait bound because it's what I really wanted < 1622061258 202905 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hoping to get more information from the error message < 1622061261 538129 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and surprisingly, it just worked < 1622061350 623646 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which de-facto agreed upon dependencies" are unstable? < 1622061368 739380 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's one a couple of levels out from html5ever, I think < 1622061374 547960 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in terms of the "do not use in production" < 1622061382 395755 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in terms of unstable, nearly all of them < 1622061386 808794 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :num-traits is widely used and has a 0. version number, for example < 1622061422 994047 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yeah I meant "Perspectives on Projective Geometry" < 1622061426 27818 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in fact, it's a rarity to see a version number start with a positive integer < 1622061426 294857 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: also look at Tamfang's code that he used to generate all the hyperbolic tiling images https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Tamfang/programs and possibly some of David Madore's code eg. http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2014-12-14.2256.html < 1622061478 42848 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :SQLite doesn't have its own dependencies, so I am glad for that and do use it in many programs; it is common, I think. < 1622061521 163008 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: thanks! < 1622061533 293755 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as well as TAOCP 4A which explains a way to represent a specific tiling of the hyperbolic plane, useful combined with normal hyperbolic coordinate geometry to represent large regions of the hyperbolic plane without numeric instability < 1622061547 396871 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one thing I would like to see is a commonly agreed upon library which does, in effect, the OS-specific parts of libc < 1622061571 625185 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hopefully I have that volume of TAOCP somewhere… < 1622061577 139564 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but not things like strchr that can be implemented in a platform-neutral way < 1622061593 787654 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right now, almost everything depends on libc and it can cause trouble < 1622061607 882901 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :where the Jürgen Richter-Gerbert explains the coordinate geometry. alas I don't understand most of these topics in detail, and it doesn't seem to be as easy computationally as the Euclidean plane. < 1622061609 527667 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a few years ago I was helping my boss debug a Haskell programming, the problem was caused by libc's stdio buffering < 1622061620 260480 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and my boss was having trouble understanding why the Haskell program was using a C library at all < 1622061627 709071 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(how to organize notes on such diverse topics? I will definitely forget all that but at least I can bookmark the code in the browser) < 1622061639 674309 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, and http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2013-12-17.2175.trigonometrie-triangle.html might help < 1622061644 428175 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I explained that going via C for the operating sustem interface was the easiest way to make your language run on multiple operating system) < 1622061691 699948 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: ah, the hyperbolic cosine law < 1622061713 607531 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also my grammar has gotten a lot worse over the last couple of years, for some reason < 1622061714 722509 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm I need to invent a way to write all tree of them as one < 1622061750 163955 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :" I try to avoid dependencies that have too many dependencies of their own" => yeah, the CPAN/node.js dependency hell. usually those kinds of modules that pull in a huge dependency tree of things that seem completely unrelated to what the modules are supposed to be doing turn out to be low quality. < 1622061795 89810 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah yes, there's stuff like that in Cargo too < 1622061818 712541 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :Taneb fizzie I guess that's it https://imgchest.com/p/pdl7px9j4ox > 1622061901 124768 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83471&oldid=73905 5* 03Ais523 5* (+106) 10update on the IRC situation < 1622061903 752915 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :definitely nicer < 1622061925 699660 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 QUIT :Quit: sorry about my connection < 1622061973 153732 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 JOIN :#esolangs < 1622062099 374090 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :does dot have any parameter to "think harder" how to arrange things? < 1622062142 763623 :moon!~moony@hellomouse/dev/moony NICK :moony < 1622062265 427617 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: I think dot's algorithm is actually deterministic, it just does a tsort and then puts arrows accordingly < 1622062291 865892 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is neato if you want a more complicated algorithm for arranging things < 1622062366 5874 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(same input format as dot, same developers, but a very different placement algorithm) < 1622062471 201723 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, this reminds me: I'm working on an esolang which will primarily handle integers, but I want it to be able to work with complex rationals too < 1622062487 356025 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I'm wondering how to implement the modulus/floor-divide operations on complex numbers (which I want to include because they're useful on integers) < 1622062527 106204 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :after researching it, it looks like "symmetric modulus" (the counterpart to rounded division) is a meaningful operation on complex numbers, but then the modulus operation will work differently on real numbers and on complex numbers, which is weird < 1622062569 565412 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :does anyone know of a sensible generalisation of floor-division (and the corresponding remainder operation) to the complex numbers? < 1622062642 853389 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've just implemented RASEL in Ruby that already has Rational ..D also it has Complex IIRC but I didn't use it < 1622062676 831880 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least floor-division on real rationals is easy enough to implement < 1622062695 225352 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(you divide the rationals, then floor to the next integer below if the result isn't an integer, this gives a sensible definition for the modulus) < 1622062765 677907 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you can implement modulus for complex numbers by requiring that the resulting modulus is within 90° anticlockwise of the divisor on the complex plane < 1622062811 853842 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, generalising that to integers, you get floor-division when the denominator is positive but ceil-division when the denominator is negative, which I guess might be a useful operation? < 1622062901 165615 :sprock!~sprocklem@user/sprock QUIT :Quit: goodbye forever freenode < 1622062940 801741 :sprock!~sprocklem@user/sprock JOIN :#esolangs > 1622063078 518132 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unsquare14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83472&oldid=83419 5* 03Bangyen 5* (+84) 10/* Implementations */ < 1622063613 408741 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :There are some nonstandard C functions that can be useful, such as fopencookie, which is a GNU extension. I found that it seems musl-libc also includes fopencookie, but apparently it does not provide a portable way to do arithmetic on file offsets; I fail to see how you are supposed to implement a seekable stream in that case. (Fortunately many of the cases where fopencookie is used are used for non-seekable streams so doesn't have this < 1622063662 571575 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have been trying to work out what a good portable system-neutral API for file-like things would look like < 1622063692 398794 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it makes sense to divide files into seekable files and streams, but I don't know if you would want them to be separate APIs entirely, or if you want to merge them to cover the case of seekable streams < 1622063719 846251 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are some weird cases, like growing files, where you want to be able to read what you have so far in a seekable way, then monitor the end for new content, in a streaming sort of way < 1622063726 129734 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but of course there might be edits earlier in the file too) < 1622063745 925411 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :really the problem is that we have a few different things we might want to use files for, but we're trying to force them all into the same abstraction > 1622063790 900568 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83473&oldid=83425 5* 03Aylias 5* (+19) 10/* M */ < 1622063801 927106 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that the existing system is OK, except that such things as fopencookie are nonstandard and don't have a standardized way. < 1622063844 468010 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: how about picking a “floor quotient” q ∈ Z[i], picking it so that Re q ≤ Re (z1 / z2) < Re q + 1, and making that order linear by deciding something about picking Im q. Then on R it will give the usual floor division and so the corresponding mod too < 1622063844 944266 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's been generally agreed on that openat and friends are a better interface than their non-at counterparts < 1622063874 511693 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :It can be used for example, I have the functions that compute hashes: int fosimp_hash_stream(int alg,FILE*echo,Fosimp_Hash*hash,FILE**fp); int fosimp_hash(int alg,const unsigned char*data,size_t len,Fosimp_Hash*hash); (the second one is a convenience wrapper) > 1622063943 791292 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MultiStacker14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83474 5* 03Aylias 5* (+80) 10Created page with "'''MultiStacker''' is an [[Esoteric programming language]] created by [[Aylias]]" < 1622063961 531098 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :This includes an optional echo stream, in order that you want to write to another stream at the same time while the hash is being accumulated. (You can even chain them; in the case of fossil decks, this will be the case, since you will write the cards to a MD5 stream which echoes to a SHA-1 stream which then echoes to the output stream, after closing the MD5 stream write its hash to the SHA-1 stream.) < 1622063972 49573 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: I was thinking along those sorts of lines, maybe even something as simple as "floor the real part and round the imaginary part" < 1622063992 480541 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah seems not so unnatural! < 1622064005 196653 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: There is the C stream objects and the POSIX file descriptors interface; they are different things and can be good for different purposes; sometimes you do want to use both and fortunately you can do so, so, that isn't a problem. > 1622064012 671079 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aylias14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83475 5* 03Aylias 5* (+89) 10Created page with "I am a high-schooler who loves to code! I have created these esolangs: * [[MultiStacker]]" < 1622064016 151759 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and almost preserves conjugation in this case, ah > 1622064021 369748 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MultiStacker14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83476&oldid=83474 5* 03Aylias 5* (+5) 10 < 1622064048 518838 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess if you break ties to even, it actually does preserve conjugation < 1622064063 742926 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or if you’d want to use stochastic rounding for numbers from Z + 1/2… < 1622064066 685532 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"round the real part and round the imaginary part" (symmetric modulus / round-division) is needed to make gcd work, thoguh < 1622064077 772314 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think some esolang deserves to have some stochastic rounding < 1622064091 811566 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :generally speaking I prefer my esolangs to be deterministic unless there's some reason not to < 1622064118 290899 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :The source code of TeXnicard defines a "fopenat" function which combines fopen with openat, since that is useful in this case (for accessing files that belong to a package). < 1622064141 630262 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs : "round the real part and round the imaginary part" (symmetric modulus / round-division) is needed to make gcd work, thoguh => is it related to euclidean division Knuth advocate(d|s)? > 1622064150 925830 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MultiStacker14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83477&oldid=83476 5* 03Aylias 5* (+171) 10 < 1622064155 737446 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think having fopen as the main API, rather than as a wrapper for open+fdopen, was a mistake > 1622064181 341409 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MultiStacker14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83478&oldid=83477 5* 03Aylias 5* (+4) 10 < 1622064196 269325 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: it's mostly just due to preventing an infinite regress; flooring an integer changes it by at most 1, but flooring the real part and rounding the imaginary part can change it by up to sqrt(3) < 1622064206 954862 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :static FILE*fopenat(int dirfd,const char*filename,const char*mode) { int flag,fd; FILE*fp; if(*mode=='r') flag=O_RDONLY; if(*mode=='w') flag=O_WRONLY|O_CREAT|O_TRUNC; if(*mode=='a') flag=O_WRONLY|O_CREAT|O_APPEND; if(strchr(mode,'+')) flag&=~(O_RDONLY|O_WRONLY),flag|=O_RDWR; fd=openat(dirfd,filename,flag); if(fd==-1) return 0; fp=fdopen(fd,mode); if(!fp) close(fd); return fp; } < 1622064223 7477 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and this breaks the invariant that the remainder of a division is smaller than the divisor, which the euclidean algorithm needs to be able to terminate > 1622064251 55226 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MultiStacker14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83479&oldid=83478 5* 03Aylias 5* (+96) 10 < 1622064256 860993 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whereas if you round both parts, the symmetric modulus will come out smaller than the divisor so the euclidean algorithm works again < 1622064265 634287 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Maybe it was a mistake. But, maybe having fopen separate is helpful in order to allow non-POSIX programs to work? < 1622064268 1524 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(smaller in this case meaning smaller magnitude) < 1622064301 843087 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I think every major OS, and most of the minor OSes, have some sort of file descriptor concept that's separate from the concept of a buffered stream < 1622064327 347531 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in WebAssembly, file descriptors are random numbers rather than consecutive integeres, but they still exist < 1622064496 140045 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :That seems like an improvement. < 1622064526 672917 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes < 1622064559 302051 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it does break the API for select(2), but that may be a good thing, because it would have helped avoid creating an API that doesn't scale well < 1622064645 806742 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1622064659 686181 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu JOIN :#esolangs < 1622064673 683284 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 JOIN :#esolangs > 1622064707 750241 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MultiStacker14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83480&oldid=83479 5* 03Aylias 5* (+506) 10 < 1622064936 281236 :rasengone!~imode@user/imode NICK :imode < 1622065221 131272 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :rounding discussion reminds me of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cash_rounding I remember when it changed stores had look up tables to explain. "If the number ends in x, round to y" < 1622065279 473587 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :... possibly not that relevant to complex numbers though < 1622065322 679270 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: I'm the sort of person who sometimes pays prices like £1.99 using exact change < 1622065361 356218 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: that's so satisfying < 1622065382 663353 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it also helps to rebalance the coin mix in both my wallet and their register < 1622065388 840372 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :rarely happens though < 1622065435 931048 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also prefer to pay using exact change when I can, but a law that has been introduced in Canada some time ago makes that difficult to do < 1622065522 286086 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you know how I complained that there's so hard to find detailed information about the IBM Selectric typewriters on the internet that the whole thing seems to be a hoax invented about a nonexistent typewriter, possibly as Cold War propaganda about the US technological superiority? well I just found a nice high quality video that both shows a working Selectric II and talks about how it works < 1622065528 290233 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJITkKaO0qA < 1622065622 852457 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :What I remember from the dropping of 1 and 2 c coins was that prices like $1.99 still existed, so you couldn't pay exact, unless you paid electronically. I think that mean you could get things cheaper by paying cash because guidelines were to round down (to nearest 5) < 1622065661 794128 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :" does anyone know of a sensible generalisation of floor-division to the complex numbers?" => J implements a weird one, but I'm not sure that it's sensible, it might be there because if you want to take the floor of the real and imaginary components separately that's easy to implement yourself so they chose to add something weirder to the floor primitive < 1622065725 445179 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`locale < 1622065726 346425 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ALL= < 1622065750 671615 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: what is J's generalisation? < 1622065760 989883 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's cool that HackEso knows where you live... < 1622065763 302306 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` locale | grep -v \" < 1622065764 326695 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_ALL= < 1622065784 82461 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have like 15kg of coins < 1622065792 370577 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it works by making floor(x+y*i)=0 :iff 0<=x+y<1 and -1<=x-y<1, with the equality possibly on the other side of the second condition, I don't remember < 1622065843 469687 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's just confusing, I wonder if there's a reason for it < 1622065848 614441 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am not convinced that this makes more sense than just making floor(x+y*i)=floor(x)+floor(y)*i < 1622065893 192958 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I'm going to go with the floor(x)+round(y)*i approach < 1622065925 731232 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it seems wrong to not be symmetrical around the y=0 axis < 1622065969 676160 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"floor the real part and round the imaginary part" => hmm, I haven't considered that. but that seems wrong because it ruins the nice symmetry of ceil(x)=-floor(-x) < 1622066020 365732 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :' "round the real part and round the imaginary part" (symmetric modulus /round-division) is needed to make gcd work, thoguh' => yes, because you want the remainder to have a magnitude less than the divisor < 1622066025 868622 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no it doesn't? ceil would presumably be "ceil the real part and round the imaginary part", so still symmetrical, as long as you use as symmetrical rounding < 1622066031 696503 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like round-ties-to-even < 1622066045 708075 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :though I will note that the weird floor from J also satisfies that < 1622066068 993090 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :which, now that I think of it, might be the reason why they chose that over componentwise floor, oh wow < 1622066165 428503 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I was ready to pull request the --reduce option to the homebrew graph tool < 1622066176 228888 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"file descriptors are random numbers rather than consecutive integers" => I think Linux folks believe that the consecutive integers thing is sort of a mistake, because in some weird heavily multithreaded cases it can cause a performance penalty, and you don't really gain anything important from the guarantee, but it's too late to change now because some existing programs can rely on it < 1622066190 317891 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it appeared that there is some bug in homebrew that does not really show the full tree < 1622066224 203644 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :" I also prefer to pay using exact change when I can, but a law that has been introduced in Canada some time ago makes that difficult to do" => er, how so? < 1622066270 717217 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe what would be better is unspecified unused file descriptor numbers with a specified minimum, but you can also specify explicitly what file descriptor number you want, and in that case it can be below the minimum number for automatically assigned numbers < 1622066272 533346 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :When Finland switched to the euro, we never adopted the 1 and 2 cent coins, but we had prices at that level of precision, and I'm pretty sure the rounding was to nearest increment of 0.05 (which doesn't have any ties to break). And you could indeed pay with card the exact price. So theoretically you could optimize by selecting to pay cash whenever the price ended in .x1, .x2, .x6 or .x7; pay by card when < 1622066278 539467 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :it ended in .x3, .x4, .x8 or .x9; and do whichever on .x0 and .x5. I don't think I know anyone who did that, though. < 1622066287 301774 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :' ceil would presumably be "ceil the real part and round the imaginary part", so still symmetrical, as long as you use as symmetrical rounding' => hmm yes, you may be right < 1622066288 473760 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: The Canadian government no longer makes one cent coins < 1622066290 150336 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: they round prices to multiples of 5 cents if you pay cash, or something like that... let's see how close I got < 1622066318 850386 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"but you can also specify explicitly what file descriptor number you want" => we do have that in unix, it's called dup2 < 1622066337 798614 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :dup2 is just weird < 1622066342 296179 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's probably better as a separate syscall than adding an extra parameter to every call that may return a file descriptor < 1622066349 408529 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's mostly intended for redirecting stdin/stdout/stderr which have fixed numbers < 1622066355 373885 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, it is < 1622066376 662482 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: but isn't it also, like, "free" in that it's something the kernel can do easily so why not expose it? < 1622066403 656597 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean once you have a unix model of inheriting file descriptors with the same numbers to subprocesses by default < 1622066430 691907 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the kernel needs an inderection from file descriptor numbers to file descriptions, with some extra state for the file descriptors, in first place < 1622066442 247973 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: in NZ we called it "Swedish rounding" < 1622066444 690931 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the extra state generally being just an O_CLOEXEC flag right now, but still < 1622066467 754288 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: seek position is a big one < 1622066485 746825 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, I'm increasingly of the opinion that seek position should be a userspace rather than kernelspace thing < 1622066492 65187 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: no, seek position is shared over inheritance or dup < 1622066496 944991 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the read API for seekable files should just specify the byte range (i.e. pread) < 1622066546 750731 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think trying to unify files and streams is maybe not that great of a Unix decision. < 1622066559 815806 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, how was I not aware of round(-x) = -round(x) as a reason for round-to-even... < 1622066595 19006 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :What else should be in userspace that's in the kernel? < 1622066598 903236 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :The current directory. < 1622066601 818675 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :TCP. < 1622066610 501714 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :" I think that mean you could get things cheaper by paying cash" => I think of it as still paying the exact amount, only the coins in my wallet now represent an approximation of how much money I have, which is fine. but admittedly shops can't quite do that, they have to know the exact amount of cash that should be in a cashier's box so that they can do an inventory check to prove to stupid < 1622066616 902708 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fussy customers that the cashier did not steal their money, or to prove to themselves that the cashier did steal money from them, without security camera footage < 1622066624 174285 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can see arguments for TCP in kernelspace, although they aren't nearly as large as the arguments for IP in kernelspace < 1622066645 645081 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :There are arguments for TCP in the kernel but they aren't very strong, I think. < 1622066648 836910 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :many USB things < 1622066657 453031 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: is there a way to find "the closest" Gaussian integer to unambiguous and meaningful? < 1622066664 120952 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :And at least the kernel should give you the option of receiving and sending TCP datagrams, even if you don't always use it. < 1622066669 196583 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :to be < 1622066677 205423 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also TCP is a bit of a scam in the first place. < 1622066687 70468 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: round-real, round-imaginary gives you the closest Gaussian integer by all sensible definitions < 1622066695 907224 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh no, shachaf is going on a rampage again < 1622066712 70409 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Uh oh. < 1622066730 596198 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Soon all our connections will stop working, after shachaf argues TCP is logically impossible and it stops existing. < 1622066731 450011 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: we do more or less have such an API with explicit byte ranges for, I almost everything in unix. pread, ftruncate, etc. technically you still need the seek pointer for the SEEK_DATA/SEEK_HOLE options of lseek, I don't think that has a seekless equivalent, but that's about all I can think of. < 1622066731 674876 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, so what are the arguments for TCP in the kernel? Maybe I didn't think it through. < 1622066757 613984 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I think of TCP as more like a deal with the devil than a logical impossibility. < 1622066796 844873 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: it seems like at least non-root programs shouldn't have control over things like what parameters to use for their TCP connections < 1622066800 773216 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :" And at least the kernel should give you the option of receiving and sending TCP datagrams, even if you don't always use it." => I think they do that, in the sense of letting you use send and receive raw IP packets if you want < 1622066811 619261 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are like three different interfaces for raw IP already, for historical reasons < 1622066848 384011 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Only as root. < 1622066857 587243 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Hmm, why not? < 1622066857 945265 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: yes. < 1622066904 129263 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: programs are competing with each other for various resources, network is one of them < 1622066920 314200 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right, but why on the TCP level? < 1622066926 131957 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the details of TCP can have a lot of influence on how much share of a computer's network bandwidth each of the programs gets < 1622066938 790459 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yes, I think it might be possible to make that work on the IP level alone < 1622066950 209563 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the whole "end-to-end" thing is a great idea. < 1622066965 26042 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in theory, if you can make it work at a lower level, that would be better, because it would leave fewer loopholes < 1622067030 162133 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(continuing to watch the Selectric video) wow < 1622067050 317564 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm… are TCP and UDP port numbers in a shared namespace with each other? or separate? < 1622067058 786218 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Separate, I think. < 1622067061 819887 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if they're separate namespaces, that would be a good reason for the kernel to handle TCP < 1622067077 909188 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so that it can arbitrate when two programs both want to listen on the same port < 1622067094 179850 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :The kernel would need to handle TCP to the extent that it handles UDP, i.e. check port numbers on incoming and outgoing packets. < 1622067100 564904 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm OK with that. < 1622067110 522222 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: separate, but for historical reasons the older assignments of well-known ports by some acronym organization (ICANN or IANNA or whatever) were given in pairs of matching tcp and udp port numbers < 1622067130 59441 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IANA only has one N < 1622067146 806507 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :then of course the 65536 port numbers easily ran out as people made more and more programs, and it no longer made sense to just assign a well-known port number to everything < 1622067154 439590 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder whether if I make a service I can get a low port number for it nowadays. < 1622067157 443106 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like 2. < 1622067186 819816 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I actually check the Wikipedia article for what port numbers are in common use, when writing new programs < 1622067190 361763 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :to reduce the odds of clashes < 1622067204 644790 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, there was an incident recently < 1622067214 926170 :xkapastel!uid17782@id-17782.tinside.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1622067217 286794 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :where one of the Pokémon games was using the same port number as some widely deployed piece of hardware < 1622067220 789368 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so we still have HTTP on 80 and some fixed port numbers for services that tell you what port to use, but most programs just assume the port number needn't necessarily be fixed, and can either be configured by user with a default or is autodetected through some other service whose port can also perhaps be configured, which isn't such an overhead if you want to configure the host as well < 1622067233 196913 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the hardware wasn't doing proper input validation and was crashing when the Pokémon games were played on the same network as it < 1622067247 62166 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: oh nice < 1622067253 990088 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :presumably this bug could have been intentionally exploited for years, but the accidental exploit was what got them to notice < 1622067314 151330 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I used to pick port numbers (for personal things) by selecting a two-character abbreviation sort of mnemonical to the thing the port was for, and then concatenatic those two characters into a 16-bit port number. < 1622067335 980266 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also there's DNS, which uses both an UDP and less often a TCP port with I think the same number, and has a really good reason to be on a fixed well-known port number < 1622067356 380156 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :DNS servers also have a good reason to have memorable IP addresses < 1622067366 794511 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well yes < 1622067374 316821 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: that's how Donald Knuth picks variable names in INTERCAL < 1622067376 433439 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh man, if only multibyte character literal values in C had a defined meaning. < 1622067385 64943 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but with the ipv4 space so filled, that's not always so easy < 1622067385 156319 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :except he uses Baudot encoding to fit three letters into the name < 1622067407 422027 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess no one should use TCP these days because everything is supposed to be encrypted, and TCP doesn't work well with encryption. < 1622067409 318215 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: people use macros for that, though I haven't seen it used for ports in particular < 1622067436 32908 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: TLS over TCP is *really* common, though < 1622067450 876067 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually I'm not sure whether TLS over UDP even exists, even if it does it's much less common < 1622067466 684804 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: no, quite the opposite, everyone uses TCP these days even if they don't need to, because too many routing equipment tries to be too smart and check things in packets that they shouldn't like the TCP header < 1622067475 266297 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, establishing a TLS connection over TCP takes an extra roundtrip. < 1622067475 700028 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :TLS isn't the only way to do encryption, but it does seem to be the consensus method < 1622067482 502868 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which already makes it unsuitable for many applications. < 1622067505 834532 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :TCP fast open isn't great and I think is unused. < 1622067528 845414 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one thing I dislike about TLS is how unreliable it seems to be in practice < 1622067538 695863 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, not TLS, TCP < 1622067554 985357 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bits of TCP communications have a tendency to go missing, even though the entire point of the protocol is meant to be to prevent that < 1622067567 254643 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: may I point you to https://noiseprotocol.org/ as a nice encryption protocol in general and a possible way to avoid unncessary roundtrips < 1622067575 346599 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :In terms of total bytes sent over the networks, I imagine YouTube must account for a rather a lot, and since I suspect pretty much no YouTube traffic from Chrome browsers (itself a pretty popular thing) uses TCP, I think it's likely there's quite a lot of non-TCP traffic out there. < 1622067581 869204 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and so, at the application level, you're often inventing your own reliable-connection protocols (with resending, etc.) on top of TCP, which is just so upsetting that you have to do that < 1622067592 149331 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :" TCP fast open isn't great and I think is unused." => it is used by browsers these days, if both sides run modern software > 1622067592 598433 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MultiStacker14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83481&oldid=83480 5* 03Aylias 5* (+1343) 10 < 1622067616 539059 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :TCP fast open doesn't seem great. < 1622067626 75630 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :It doesn't work on the first connection, and it can be used to fingerprint clients. < 1622067708 69362 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I opened a pull request for your idea guys https://github.com/martido/homebrew-graph/pull/14 < 1622067729 193902 :spirgel!~spirgel@81.92.200.60 JOIN :#esolangs < 1622067744 269237 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I like how TCP has something called "fast open" and something called "quick start" and the two have nothing to do with each other. < 1622067767 296612 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wait, was it called "quick start"? Maybe I'm thinking of something else. < 1622067785 242569 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, nope, RFC 4782. < 1622067862 25991 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It came up earlier, but there's a proposed new DNS resource record type, "HTTPS", which allows the DNS lookup to transmit enough information that a client can connect directly over HTTP/3 (or do an encrypted-from-the-start handshake) even on the first connection, among other little things like serving from a non-standard port, or allowing delegation of the zone apex (unlike CNAME). < 1622067901 571522 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Though I imagine for anything "non-optional" (like serving *only* from a non-standard port), you'd have to presume it's supported, which won't be feasible particularly soon. < 1622067915 925553 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: that book is golden after all. Even a hyperbolic geometry dive-in < 1622067971 890377 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Putting it in DNS seems OK. < 1622068001 772624 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: interesting, I haven't followed HTTP/3 and even HTTP/2 only to a small amount < 1622068012 52448 :DHeadshot!~DHeadshot@cpc121954-woki8-2-0-cust72.6-2.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esolangs < 1622068015 780797 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, are ports a good idea, or should there just be some extra addressing bits? < 1622068027 233051 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is HTTP/3 the one that uses QUIC? < 1622068038 657178 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yep. It's really just the new name for QUIC. < 1622068045 609706 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Just like HTTP/2 was the new name for SPDY. < 1622068049 51917 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a02:8106:215:3300:e7ad:5ab7:4ea0:e177 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1622068063 353866 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :' Though I imagine for anything "non-optional" (like serving *only* from a non-standard port), you'd have to presume it's supported' => sort of, but the server could put in a fallback redirect to a longer https address with a port in it where they serve HTTP/1.1 < 1622068067 732141 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or HTTP/2 < 1622068102 866869 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1622068103 794353 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-https/ for that DNS thing, though it's only tangentially related to HTTP/3, since you can certainly do HTTP/3 even without -- it's just that the initial connection to a new unknown server won't be able to assume it speaks HTTP/3, so has to use the `Upgrade:` mechanism. < 1622068124 130851 :ffmct!~ffmct@185.187.243.128 JOIN :#esolangs < 1622068127 378956 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :" Hmm, are ports a good idea, or should there just be some extra addressing bits?" => they are probably not a worse idea than partitioning the IP namespace to three parts, one where the default is 1<<8 addresses per local network, one where it's 1<<16, and one where it's 1<<24 < 1622068160 797340 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's like a thing that makes configuration easier in the common case, while you can still have a computer respond to multiple IP addresses if you wish, and that often happens now < 1622068218 799660 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.90 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1622068267 354151 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator JOIN :#esolangs < 1622068353 66756 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can see some argument for putting that sort of "initial trip" information (like whether the server does HTTP/3) in the same channels as are used to spread HSTS information < 1622068411 683802 :dcristofani!~dcristofa@69-71-183-170.mammothnetworks.com JOIN :#esolangs < 1622068585 673227 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: I'm glad you like it < 1622068739 397874 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: Just to set the record straight, it is probably wasn't exactly correct to say that HTTP/3 is a "new name" for QUIC, for two reasons: they have been doing actual changes (not just minor incompatibilities) as part of the IETF process, so (what's now called) "gQUIC" is not the same protocol as QUIC; and as you implied, strictly speaking the IETF QUIC is the general-purpose protocol and HTTP/3 is < 1622068745 391699 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :just the mapping of HTTP on it. < 1622068825 826152 :really3!~justafrie@185.187.243.128 JOIN :#esolangs > 1622068970 589179 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MultiStacker14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83482&oldid=83481 5* 03Aylias 5* (+2015) 10 > 1622069374 797145 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MultiStacker14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83483&oldid=83482 5* 03Aylias 5* (+82) 10 > 1622069383 726630 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MultiStacker14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83484&oldid=83483 5* 03Aylias 5* (+1) 10 < 1622069403 487859 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1622069513 282935 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :QUIC looked pretty complicated when I was looking at it. > 1622069516 488233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MultiStacker14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83485&oldid=83484 5* 03Aylias 5* (+8) 10 < 1622069517 999825 :imode!~imode@user/imode NICK :rasengone < 1622069997 539254 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :when esolangers say "it's pretty complicated" it means something > 1622070045 324648 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MultiStacker14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83486&oldid=83485 5* 03Aylias 5* (+1181) 10 > 1622070062 420443 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MultiStacker14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83487&oldid=83486 5* 03Aylias 5* (+1) 10 < 1622070166 712077 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/davisonio/awesome-irc < 1622070188 970557 :Soni!~quassel@autistic.space PRIVMSG #esolangs :QUIC is kinda weird < 1622070196 464912 :Soni!~quassel@autistic.space PRIVMSG #esolangs :SCTP is way cooler tbh < 1622070320 483946 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://gitlab.com/ddevault/bf-irc-bot > 1622070381 983108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MultiStacker14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83488&oldid=83487 5* 03Aylias 5* (+430) 10 > 1622070400 525876 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MultiStacker14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83489&oldid=83488 5* 03Aylias 5* (+1) 10/* Example Code */ > 1622070675 873317 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MultiStacker14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83490&oldid=83489 5* 03Aylias 5* (+0) 10 < 1622070913 689914 :dcristofani!~dcristofa@69-71-183-170.mammothnetworks.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1622071300 76662 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :2018-03-12: Slack is shutting down the IRC and XMPP gateways. < 1622071305 99890 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow I missed it > 1622071681 552267 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MultiStacker14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83491&oldid=83490 5* 03Aylias 5* (+32) 10 < 1622073160 216617 :xkapastel!uid17782@id-17782.tinside.irccloud.com JOIN :#esolangs