00:02:44 <keegan> you can also seed it with any fixed set of colors before generating new random ones
00:02:56 <keegan> like you might decide to do all the primary and secondary colors first
00:03:03 <keegan> and then generate random ones (which will tend to be less saturated)
00:03:11 <keegan> but so far I think I like the aesthetics of all-random the most
00:09:22 <esolangs> [[Flkl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83527&oldid=83524 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-30) /* Flkl programming language */ Remove needless BR tags
00:09:42 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * S1(210) * New user account
00:10:33 <keegan> it would be neat to pair a camera with a bunch of narrow-spectrum light sources that illuminate in quick succession
00:11:06 <keegan> then you could take a composite multispectral photograph of an object and see what it would look like in different forms of lighting
00:12:36 <fizzie> I think usually those systems use a bunch of band-pass filters instead?
00:12:49 <fizzie> Not sure where I've gotten that impression from though.
00:13:55 <fizzie> I guess it doesn't really make a difference whether you slap that filter in front of the light source or the sensor, if you're doing it with filters.
00:15:57 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snapshot_hyperspectral_imaging I'm going to be stuck clicking on links forever, right?
00:18:25 <dcristofani> "don't attribute to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity" is a bad rule. Because it is standard practice for malicious people to disguise their malice as stupidity; it's a fairly strong/easy/inexpensive layer of defense to add. Or as Blake put it, "Folly is the cloke of knavery".
00:20:47 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83528&oldid=83526 * S1(210) * (+362) /* Introductions */
00:22:11 <HackEso> logs? No such file or directory
00:22:15 <HackEso> #esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/esologs/
00:22:30 <fizzie> Oh, that's not up to date.
00:23:07 <b_jonas> I mostly just want to see how many of those log the new channel
00:23:19 <b_jonas> /!\ this shouldn't appear in the old channel
00:23:31 <b_jonas> though some of the logs update slowly
00:24:09 <b_jonas> tunes seems to log the old channel
00:24:26 <fizzie> Well, codu.org stopped logging in 2016 and I think that GitHub repo also gave up earlier this year?
00:24:47 <fizzie> At least the last commit has the message "final update".
00:24:47 <b_jonas> and... um, kspalaiologos's logs seems to have stopped at 2021-02-07. and I haven't seen kspalaiologos recently.
00:26:18 <perlbot> b_jonas: Mojo::Log for minimalism, Log4perl for maximum overkill, Log::Any for anything in between | Log::Dispatch, Log::Dispatchouli, Log::Contextual
00:26:22 <fizzie> I faintly remember something about GitHub changes making it less feasible.
00:26:35 <fizzie> But I might have imagined that.
00:26:38 <perlbot> b_jonas: Mojo::Log for minimalism, Log4perl for maximum overkill, Log::Any for anything in between | Log::Dispatch, Log::Dispatchouli, Log::Contextual
00:26:50 <b_jonas> perlbot fact #esolangs logs
00:26:51 <perlbot> b_jonas: Mojo::Log for minimalism, Log4perl for maximum overkill, Log::Any for anything in between | Log::Dispatch, Log::Dispatchouli, Log::Contextual
00:27:03 <b_jonas> why does it ignore the first word?
00:27:33 <fizzie> # makes it a comment? :) (Probably not.)
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00:28:11 <b_jonas> simcop has done a lot of changes to that bot since I worked with it, including lots of new features
00:28:26 <b_jonas> I'm not really in the loop of any of the new developments
00:31:18 <fizzie> I should probably restart esolangs, I've been doing a lot of refactoring and while it's still been working locally, I don't have enough test coverage to be confident that I didn't break anything, so "releasing" now would mean less work to trace what exactly did break.
00:31:26 <fizzie> Plus the latest change adds an (internal) RPC interface that can be used to watch incoming messages and send out new ones, which I was hoping to use to do that CertFP registration.
00:32:22 <zzo38> If I will set up a IRC channel, can the log system that esolangs IRC is using, be used? (No guarantee that it will not later be moved to a different system, though, such as my own one)
00:33:40 <fizzie> Mm, well, the bot supports multiple networks and channels better now than it used to, so I imagine it could.
00:35:15 <zzo38> If multiple instances are running and one becomes temporarily unavailable, is it possible to merge them once they become available again?
00:35:15 <fizzie> #go-nuts used to have the public channel logs over at https://freenode.logbot.info/ which decided to shut down, so now the channel is without logs. (Of course some people like it that way, which is fair enough.)
00:36:52 <fizzie> I haven't written any code specifically to do that. I think it can be a little tricky, because event ordering isn't exactly the same if the instances have connected to different (IRC) servers. Probably it can be done reasonably reliably though.
00:38:00 <fizzie> There is an IRCv3 specification to add a unique message ID tag, which would make that easier, but I don't think any network supports that (and nor does the bot).
00:39:14 <zzo38> I suppose there is also the consideration if the timestamps are missynchronized, although the time difference can easily be found by comparing the logs for the time that both instances were connected, in order to resynchronize the time stamps.
00:39:36 <simcop2387> b_jonas: you stumbled upon the syntax on how to ask for a specific channel's factoid namespace. since there isn't one for #esolangs it falls back to the default one, ##NULL
00:39:45 <simcop2387> one second i'll setup a factoid namespace for here to demo
00:40:02 <zzo38> (Although even then is the possibility that a message will be delayed for whatever reason)
00:41:16 <simcop2387> it's now got a seperate set of factoids just for you guys
00:41:58 <simcop2387> perlbot: hi is Welcome to #esolangs. The liberated church of esoteric programming proselytization, propagation, and pronunciation!
00:41:58 <perlbot> simcop2387: Stored hi is Welcome to #esolangs. The liberated church of esoteric programming proselytization, propagation, and pronunciation!
00:42:20 <simcop2387> https://factoids.perl.bot/libera.chat/%23esolangs/list now shows all the factoids here
00:42:48 <simcop2387> i can *also* tell it that you want your own namespace but to recurse down into the old default namespace so that you can override anything too
00:46:28 <simcop2387> in fact that's what i'm going to do now
00:46:56 <perlbot> simcop2387: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [hi]
00:47:23 <perlbot> simcop2387: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [hi]
00:51:04 <simcop2387> ok i don't remember how to set that up offhand because i don't do it often hold on
00:59:36 <perlbot> simcop2387: Welcome to #esolangs. The liberated church of esoteric programming proselytization, propagation, and pronunciation!
00:59:41 <perlbot> simcop2387: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [hi]
01:01:17 <simcop2387> b_jonas: alright now it's properly set up. you can set and override any factoids in here and it won't affect other channels. so you can in fact do:
01:01:30 <simcop2387> perlbot: logs is #esolangs logs are available at https://logs.esolangs.org/
01:01:30 <perlbot> simcop2387: Stored logs is #esolangs logs are available at https://logs.esolangs.org/
01:02:52 <simcop2387> but all the previous factoids that the bot has from #perl et al are still available and will fall back. this then also introduces the difference between the "forget" and "delete" commands for the bot. forget will make it not respond to a factoid, regardless of if the factoid exists in the fallback, delete will just get rid of the version of it here
01:03:08 <perlbot> simcop2387: #esolangs logs are available at https://logs.esolangs.org/
01:03:16 <perlbot> simcop2387: Mojo::Log for minimalism, Log4perl for maximum overkill, Log::Any for anything in between | Log::Dispatch, Log::Dispatchouli, Log::Contextual
01:03:28 <perlbot> simcop2387: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [log] [loc] [.lc] [lc] [.lk] [lk] [.ls] [lex] [lhc] [lhs]
01:03:36 <perlbot> simcop2387: Deleted logs from libera.chat:#esolangs
01:03:41 <perlbot> simcop2387: Mojo::Log for minimalism, Log4perl for maximum overkill, Log::Any for anything in between | Log::Dispatch, Log::Dispatchouli, Log::Contextual
01:03:52 <simcop2387> perlbot: logs is #esolangs logs are available at https://logs.esolangs.org/
01:03:53 <perlbot> simcop2387: Stored logs is #esolangs logs are available at https://logs.esolangs.org/
01:06:42 <simcop2387> you can thank digitok from #regex for begging for that ability a few years ago
01:07:53 <simcop2387> and then last year i improved it significantly to be able to do the recursion through multiple namespaces so that i could safely put the bot on discord and matrix without it affecting irc at all
01:10:02 <simcop2387> but the point is now, you guys can have all your own factoids and not worry about breaking anyone else
01:10:22 <simcop2387> it's also possible to get the bot to respond to just a string like "!logs"
01:10:54 <HackEso> Perl is the Perfect Emacs Rewriting Language
01:11:51 <simcop2387> so, "forget" will make the bot not respond to something, and "delete" removes the change you've made in your namespace here, so you can go back to the fallback if you want.
01:12:27 <lambdabot> LOWI 280050Z AUTO VRB01KT 9999 FEW060 SCT070 06/05 Q1023
01:12:57 <int-e> simcop2387: noone minds I guess, just don't expect it to see much use
01:13:24 <simcop2387> b_jonas: was wanting to use it so i figured i'd give a proper explination of how to use it :)
01:23:04 <fizzie> Heh, since we were talking about QUIC the other day -- turns out the QUIC RFC just got published, and it got a nice round number: https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc9000
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01:39:14 <perlbot> nakilon: Deleted logs from libera.chat:#esolangs
01:40:11 <nakilon> I'll add it to velik's cron
01:41:18 <nakilon> perlbot: logs is #esolangs logs are available at https://logs.esolangs.org/
01:41:18 <perlbot> nakilon: Stored logs is #esolangs logs are available at https://logs.esolangs.org/
01:41:48 <nakilon> at first I thought it's really deleting logs
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01:44:19 <esolangs> [[Undefined behavior (language)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83529 * BadBoyHaloCat * (+105) Created page with "'''Undefined behavior''' is a language where everything is undefined. Literally. '''There is no spec.'''"
01:47:09 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83530&oldid=83502 * BadBoyHaloCat * (+144)
01:55:30 <mnrmnaugh> what the fuck is this shit. oi, needs more colors and underline
02:01:35 <HackEso> mnrmnaugh: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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02:22:21 <esolangs> [[User:Zzo38/Untitled 4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83531&oldid=72984 * Zzo38 * (+1)
02:22:48 <mnrmnaugh> orly. oi, i keep meaning to join dal
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02:44:03 <esolangs> [[Undefined behavior (language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83532&oldid=83529 * BadBoyHaloCat * (+556)
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02:51:39 <esolangs> [[Flkl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83533&oldid=83527 * Razetime * (+105)
03:01:38 <b_jonas> "<zzo38> I suppose there is also the consideration if the timestamps are missynchronized, although the time difference can easily be found by comparing the logs for the time that both instances were connected" => it's more complicated than that, because connections from different servers can see messages in different order too, because they originate in different servers in the server tree structure
03:03:07 <b_jonas> simcop2387: ah, so now learning factoids here defaults to the #esolangs namespace. thanks.
03:04:13 <simcop2387> yep, so you can go nuts and change anything you want without worrying about affecting #perl or me
03:05:13 <HackEso> #esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/esologs/
03:14:37 <nakilon> salpynx this reminded me your seeding thing https://esolangs.org/wiki/Polynomial
03:16:58 <esolangs> [[Undefined behavior (language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83534&oldid=83532 * Nakilon * (+86) categories
03:19:35 <nakilon> hm, since there is the "unusable for programming" category it's possible to see if languages become less or more usable in average over years
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03:27:48 <esolangs> [[SF Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83535&oldid=83470 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+27) Recategorization) ("Toggle" prove its self-modifying
03:28:29 <nakilon> wow, Spreadheet automatically made a range for me https://i.imgur.com/bVW4YH7.png
03:34:47 <nakilon> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19o7VNgs1iKZdBvp9t6-oMlKj1H5vKHnK3GDz82QMLdg/edit?usp=sharing
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03:44:05 <nakilon> isn't the "Output only" a subcategory for "Unusable for programming"?
03:46:30 <esolangs> [[Funciton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83536&oldid=59482 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+188) Added formatting help link. Also "Hi, mom" may be considered offensive although it is a popular movie name
03:52:28 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83537&oldid=83506 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+97)
03:53:19 <nakilon> for a moment I didn't realise that this https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:ColorfulGalaxy_(disambiguation) is a user account, different from https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:ColorfulGalaxy
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04:00:45 <esolangs> [[Wutlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83538&oldid=66121 * Me4502 * (+31) Update name
04:18:46 <zzo38> It depends on what programming
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07:06:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83539&oldid=82856 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+154)
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07:08:38 <keegan> an interesting thing about my color picking algorithm is that you can substitute any distance metric
07:09:09 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83540&oldid=83537 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+46)
07:09:28 <keegan> for example this version is picking colors that are supposedly distinguishable by someone with deuteranopia (red-green colorblindness) https://i.imgur.com/7Ntu3c1.png
07:09:46 <keegan> based on code i cribbed from here https://github.com/joergdietrich/daltonize
07:10:28 <keegan> the left column is the actual picked color, the right column supposedly shows to a person with normal color vision how it would look for someone with r-g colorblindness
07:10:33 <int-e> keegan: indistinguishable?
07:10:58 <keegan> perhaps if anyone here is colorblind they can tell me if the algorithm does a good job (not that i'm using it for anything, but i'm curious)
07:11:16 <int-e> sorry, that explanation of the columns resolved my confusion
07:11:43 <keegan> yeah it would have been clearer if you were around for the earlier convo between me and nakilon
07:11:50 <int-e> Because I was looking at the pairs and was wondering why a colorblind person would see a difference between left and right :)
07:12:49 <keegan> the original goal is to pick n colors distinguishable from each other, and allow the user to increase n without redoing the earlier picks
07:13:11 <int-e> (I know "colorblind" is technically wrong. But it's a convenient and common term.)
07:13:16 <Sgeo> I probably mentioned it before, but this change broke GrainFimple: https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=BF-RLE&diff=57737&oldid=25359
07:13:41 <keegan> i do this by, for each row, generating a bunch of random candidate colors, and picking the one that maximizes the minimum distance to any of the previous ones
07:13:53 <Sgeo> (probably just need to clarify on GrainFimple's page)
07:13:57 <keegan> where the distance metric is CIEDE2000
07:15:35 <keegan> and so now i've modified it to use a distance metric that simulates deuteranopia
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11:25:25 <nakilon> I wish I could provide you a distance formula that I usually use but I always restore it from scratch
11:27:25 <nakilon> also can't find it right now because I update OS after 650 days of uptime and it already took like 10 reboots and I'm not sure that it's not dead _<>
11:39:01 <salpynx> I was today years old when I learned that deuteranopia meant r/g colour blindness, and wasn't just a play on words for an Aeon Flux episode title: Utopia or Deuteranopia, and that title is twice as clever as clever as I ever thought it was.
11:39:34 <salpynx> Can't believe that skipped my knowledge in general, or in the specific
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11:41:26 <HackEso> Being clever is different from being wise, but they are indistinguishable in sufficiently large quantities.
11:51:29 <esolangs> [[User:Salmmanfred]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83541 * Salmmanfred * (+19) Created page with "Creator of [[Flkl]]"
11:55:14 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83542&oldid=83473 * Salmmanfred * (+11) /* F */
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12:31:47 <arseniiv> <nakilon> you can take the 360 Hue circle and split it evenly => btw better to use hue from CIEL*h*c* or how was it called, the one based on CIEL*a*b*. When that’s too many calculations, CIEL*u*v*-based hue should be still better than hue based on sRGB
12:34:47 <arseniiv> (they named their variables starred for some reason)
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12:43:20 <nakilon> arseniiv I "love" that Luma Lightness and L...something-else are all different things
12:43:40 <esolangs> [[Undefined behavior (language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83543&oldid=83534 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) Fix headers
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12:46:28 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83544&oldid=83540 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) ,
12:46:39 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83545&oldid=83544 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) ;
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13:03:23 <fizzie> If you don't know how many colors you need in advance (and don't want to reassign already used ones), there's also that trick where you take the integers in order, then reverse the bits (from the highest set one) and tack a 0. in front, and use the resulting binary fraction as your hue.
13:03:29 <fizzie> 0; 1; 10, 11; 100, 101, 110, 111; ... => 0.0; 0.1; 0.01, 0.11; 0.001, 0.101, 0.011, 0.111; ... => decimal 0.0; 0.5; 0.25, 0.75; 0.125, 0.625, 0.375, 0.875; ... => degrees 0; 180; 90, 270; 45, 225, 135, 315; ...
13:03:36 <fizzie> It's not as optimal as an even split (except when the eventual number of colors is a power of two), and can't as neatly account for an arbitrary distance metric as shachaf's randomized thing, but it's also easy to do and you can compute the N'th color directly.
13:03:42 <fizzie> (I imagine there's probably other ways of generating that sequence than reversing bits.)
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13:17:58 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83546&oldid=82945 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+65) /* General languages */ UB (language)
13:18:38 <nakilon> I guess it can be found on OEIS
13:19:04 <nakilon> if tyour copypaste is correct
13:19:08 <fizzie> I guess another way of expressing that would be "rotate the highest set bit to the bottom and divide by the value of the bit above it", since finding the MSB can be easier than reversing. (You get the numbers in a slightly different order though; each trip around the circle will be in the natural order.)
13:19:34 <nakilon> oh wait, they are encoded as two numbers
13:20:04 <fizzie> It's not exactly an "integer" sequence, yeah. But I'm sure it's in there in some form.
13:21:45 <fizzie> I mean, the divisor is just 1, 2, 4, 4, 8, 8, 8, 8, ... which is definitely in. And the other one would be... 0, 1, 1, 3, 1, 3, 5, 7, which is pretty trivial too.
13:21:48 <b_jonas> my problem with this is that the theoretical considerations are not too motivated by the original problem of choosing colors, because you almost always want to choose only a very small palette, and then you can probably throw out all those theoretical optimization algorithms and you're going to handpick them and even take into account your company's color scheme or mnemonics or traditional political
13:22:14 <nakilon> https://oeis.org/search?q=1%2C+1%2C+3%2C+1%2C+5%2C+3%2C+7&sort=&language=&go=Search
13:22:17 <fizzie> Fair, although I liked shachaf's randomized algorithm a lot, and think it might even have some plausible use cases.
13:22:23 <nakilon> https://oeis.org/search?q=2%2C+4%2C+4%2C+8%2C+8%2C+8%2C+8&sort=&language=&go=Search
13:22:32 <b_jonas> or flags and traditional sportsball jersey colors
13:23:26 <b_jonas> and the colors might also depend on what technology you use to show them, eg. show on TFT monitor, print in a newspaper chart in RGB, print on a product or ad with spot colors, make plastic LEGO bricks from them etc
13:24:10 <b_jonas> if you want to make shirts, your domain probably isn't a monitor's RGB range
13:24:14 <nakilon> Numerator of n/2^(n-1). - Alexander Adamchuk, Feb 11 2005
13:25:43 <nakilon> doesn't look like n/2^(n-1)
13:32:23 <Taneb> nakilon: shachaf is not normally keegan but I think in this case fizzie might be mixed upo
13:36:09 <nakilon> looks like there is no formula
13:36:39 <nakilon> either a(n) = a(n/2).... or gcd()
14:04:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Huanying04 * New user account
14:07:57 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83547&oldid=83528 * Huanying04 * (+139) /* Introductions */
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14:19:40 <esolangs> [[PUBERTY]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83548&oldid=83498 * Not applicable * (-124) Undo revision 83498 by [[Special:Contributions/RanibowSprimkle64|RanibowSprimkle64]] ([[User talk:RanibowSprimkle64|talk]]) please dont use the page itself for discussions, use [[Talk:PUBERTY]] instead
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14:38:47 <fizzie> Taneb: I get those two mixed up all the time for some reason. I think they must hash to the same bucket in my brain or something.
14:39:38 <fizzie> I had exactly the same problem with two people back at the university, I just couldn't keep them apart even though they weren't all that much alike.
14:42:44 <Taneb> fizzie: they hash to the same colour in my IRC client
14:56:03 <fizzie> Re the other thing, the A006257 version (the one that goes 1, 3, 5, 7 instead of 1, 5, 3, 7) has a(n) = 2*(n - 2^floor(log_2(n))) + 1 as a formula, which makes sense, because it's the "write in binary and rotate by 1" thing.
14:56:10 <fizzie> And A072383 (the denominator) is d(n) = 2^floor(log_2(n)+1), which also makes sense.
14:56:15 <fizzie> So the whole thing put together is (2*(n - 2^floor(log_2(n))) + 1) / 2^floor(log_2(n)+1), simplifications left as an exercise to the reader.
14:56:20 <fizzie> > let flr = fromInteger . floor in take 16 $ (\n -> (2 * (n - 2**(flr . logBase 2 $ n)) + 1) / 2**(flr (logBase 2 n + 1))) <$> [1..]
14:56:22 <lambdabot> [0.5,0.25,0.75,0.125,0.375,0.625,0.875,6.25e-2,0.1875,0.3125,0.4375,0.5625,0...
14:57:51 <nakilon> so initial copypoasta was wrong?
14:59:07 <fizzie> Depends on how exactly you mean. The one you searched for matched my initial reverse-bits description, I think.
14:59:33 <fizzie> In any case, it's the same numbers just in a different order.
15:00:22 <nakilon> yeah, the same within the denominator buckets
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15:04:53 <fizzie> If you use a branch as a "marker" for a commit that has some special meaning (like it's the version you've currently got running somewhere), is there a convenient way to move that to a different commit without checking the branch out? Hmm, I guess git update-ref, but that feels pretty low-level.
15:08:35 <esolangs> [[User:S1(210)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83549 * S1(210) * (+119) Created page with "Hi, I'm Andrew, a programmer and college student. As of yet my only work on this site is with my language [[deBruijn]]"
15:09:56 <nakilon> you are probably more supposed to use tag, not branch
15:10:13 <nakilon> then it's trivial -- locally retag another commit and push --force --tags
15:11:04 <nakilon> https://stackoverflow.com/a/46289900/322020 IIRC it pushes only tags, not the current branch
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15:28:39 <fizzie> Maybe, it just feels odd to use a --force flag to do a "normal" operation.
15:28:59 <fizzie> I mean, apart from the pushing part (I might keep this entirely local), you need --force to replace an existing tag.
15:30:49 <fizzie> Also, with a branch there would be a reflog, which kind of sounds nice as a built-in record of where it's been.
15:31:03 <fizzie> (Though apparently you can create a reflog for a tag as well.)
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15:48:35 <nakilon> maybe you mean it's always --ff when you move that thing?
15:48:48 <nakilon> then it would be a branch, yeah
15:50:51 <nakilon> you might consider using some web interface if it's a marker that you don't usually use and just keep it for a case
15:52:11 <nakilon> for example, it two companies where I worked there was a "master" branch that was a marker of "what is now in prod"
15:52:33 <nakilon> (personally I would just use tags like you do it for software releases)
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15:53:38 <nakilon> so no one was actually supposed to "git checkout master" so we did it via web interface of gitlab/github
15:55:06 <nakilon> the only problem is that you can't merge an arbitrary commit in web interface, only HEAD, so I used API to create a temporary branch, then merge, then delete it
16:08:55 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> I had exactly the same problem with two people back at the university" => yeah, that happens sometimes. sometimes the has fingerprints that I use to identify people have collisions. It can be somewhat socially uncomfortable.
16:11:04 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> Also, with a branch there would be a reflog" => wait, tags don't have a reflog by default?
16:11:25 <fizzie> That's what the documentation seemed to imply.
16:11:38 <fizzie> --create-reflog "Create a reflog for the tag. To globally enable reflogs for tags, see core.logAllRefUpdates in git-config(1)."
16:12:35 <b_jonas> that said, make sure you're familiar with git workspace, which lets you check out multiple workspaces from the same repository, and then you can independently switch them to different branches
16:13:04 <b_jonas> then, even though you have to check out the branch, you at least don't have to lose whatever you have checked out in your main workspace
16:13:12 <fizzie> For the record, I did go with a tag (and a reflog, not that I expect to look at it) for the marker.
16:13:47 <b_jonas> and apparently it's called git worktree , not git workspace
16:16:47 <fizzie> I use worktrees for my config file repository, it's got a separate branch called `dist` that only has the stock configuration files straight from the .debs, and whenever I upgrade a package and it does that "this config file was locally edited" thing, I just copy the new dist file into the checked-out dist branch and make a new commit, then (in the main worktree) merge it into the branch that has all the
16:16:52 <nakilon> I just git clone in different directories if you mean that
16:16:53 <fizzie> local changes in it, so that git can do a proper three-way merge.
16:17:24 <fizzie> Nah, worktree is different from an independent clone.
16:17:49 <fizzie> It's basically just a second checked-out working tree from the same repository.
16:20:09 <b_jonas> yep, the multiple worktrees share the same namespace of tags and branches
16:20:38 <b_jonas> they also share storage space but you can partly do that in a clone with that option that uses hardlinks or something
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16:48:28 <arseniiv> nakilon: also luminance and I think we forgot some more
16:50:32 <arseniiv> now I think I saw somewhere an article which used IIRC Poisson disc sampling (with decreasing radius) to make unique colors, taking all dimensions beside hue into account (through ΔE)
16:50:45 <arseniiv> hm if I could only remember where I saw that at all
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17:17:16 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83550 * S1(210) * (+4309) created page
17:25:54 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * 2000gmod * New user account
17:26:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hypocritical * New user account
17:29:05 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83551&oldid=83547 * 2000gmod * (+86)
17:30:08 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83552&oldid=83542 * S1(210) * (+15) /* D */ added DeBruijn
17:30:16 <fizzie> <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> is a pretty odd way of signing your comment.
17:37:14 <arseniiv> btw dear esotericians do you for some reason know who and where to ask what is a good price for a melodica (a harmonica-like instrument with keyboard and IMO more mellow timbres on average) for an amateur (like me) but who doesn’t want to end up upgrading to another one later (so, decent construction and sound etc.) as I’m afraid “beginner’s” might be too low a bar for this use case
17:37:16 <fizzie> Oh, right, maybe they were reading the instructions in the *source*, where it obviously has to be written that way.
17:38:14 <arseniiv> or better a guide about melodicas. Though right, this one I may at least try googling myself. Hopefully that’d clear matters
17:39:08 <fizzie> I do have an acquaintance who plays one, but I don't think they're doing IRC at all frequently. I might as well copy-paste that question to a dead channel we have in common, though.
17:40:35 <nakilon> I think of making this "IDE" universal
17:40:44 <arseniiv> I’m a bit conflicted that English texts are usually better for various advices on many things, whereas you may end up with none in Russian, but then they may usually assume you live in an English-speaking country and “localized” parts of advice would be of no use. That’s lame, Earth
17:41:01 <fizzie> Favourite story: was walking through a train station underpass once, and heard someone play the Monkey Island theme tune on a melodica; mentioned that to my friendquaintance later, and turns out they were the person doing the playing.
17:41:19 <nakilon> so you configure it to launch a specified fungeoid interpreter and that interpreter should support the input format that is not just plain code but annotated
17:41:53 <immibis> an IDE designed primarily for universal language support?
17:42:04 <nakilon> then the IDE waits the configured amount of time for a case if the interpreter subprocess hangs, and if ok it prints the results with debug data somehow
17:42:56 <immibis> can't have a fungeoid interpreter without a debugger where you can watch the turtle run around the program
17:43:04 <fizzie> "immibis for fungeoids" sounds like a political slogan. Vote immibis, they're all for fungeoids.
17:43:24 <arseniiv> <fizzie> I might as well copy-paste that question to a dead channel we have in common, though. => I’ll be glad for that! And relay I wish them good fun with their instrument, if you may
17:43:46 <nakilon> arseniiv not my fav thing to say out loud but Russians don't think they are supposed to help each other (and lets pretend it's only in the internet)
17:44:04 <arseniiv> <fizzie> Favourite story: was walking through a train station underpass once, and heard someone play the Monkey Island theme tune on a melodica; mentioned that to my friendquaintance later, and turns out they were the person doing the playing. => haha
17:44:48 <fizzie> The set of people likely to be found playing the Monkey Island theme tune on a melodica in a train station underpass (in Finland) probably isn't huge, anyway.
17:44:54 <nakilon> I showed someone a wiki diff recently and he said "I don't get it" because he never saw a wiki diff, and never edited anything in the internet at all -- they use it just like a public toilet that they never flush
17:45:30 <arseniiv> nakilon: oh I mostly agree. Many communities are a high level of toxicity :( we know
17:45:57 <nakilon> immibis for a start I won't be a real time debugger -- only one message to send and one message to get per program execution
17:47:45 <nakilon> arseniiv they are unhelpful not because they hate you but because they are just raised like that
17:48:13 <nakilon> with no feeling that they aren't the center of the universe and the only conscious specie here
17:48:22 <arseniiv> I’m glad I closed the door on one forum lately. That was the last forum I was a regular on. Sucks both ways, there were infrequent fruitful math discussions but it just doesn’t work as a whole. Politics etc., meh. Casino effect made it hard to leave for good but now I’m free and if something I can entertain myself on math.SE or that other one SE site on maths
17:48:50 <arseniiv> nakilon: yep, I could have ended up almost the same
17:50:43 <arseniiv> I just found a group of people who are very nice to each other in the end (not this one) and we chat together about everything and that’s warm and I can rant about linear algebra and someone might even try to read and that’s nice. I’ll indoctrinate them into my view of maths mwahaha
17:51:20 <nakilon> "for a start I won't be a real time debugger" -- IT won't be a, not I won't be of course...
17:51:40 <fizzie> I won't be a real-time debugger, I have to sleep every now and then.
17:54:30 <arseniiv> nakilon: IDK how it’s usually called but it’s more or less believed that if the brain sees some pleasing things randomly while doing something, then it could see them with very low probability and still want to do that general thing, no matter how fruitless it might be overall. Like turning the hand of the slot machine or browsing the social feed or watching random funny cat videos on youtubes (hail gods I don’t do the last two at all; I still fi
17:54:30 <arseniiv> nd time for other timesinks like occasional minecraft or binge reading until sunrise)
17:55:21 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83553&oldid=83550 * S1(210) * (+56) /* Print some numeral 0 through 9 */
17:55:28 <arseniiv> IIRC that’s related to something something dopamine intoxication
17:55:34 <nakilon> that's called a hope I guess
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17:56:03 <arseniiv> you just scroll and scroll, or push and push, or something, even if it’s toxic etc.
17:56:07 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83554&oldid=83551 * Fizzie * (+108) Clarify signature instructions.
17:56:17 <nakilon> then it's a procrastination ..D
17:56:58 <arseniiv> neither by default, nor most of the time. Procrastination is a super-how-it’s called of that, I guess. It can be more fruitful
17:57:37 <b_jonas> if you want more than a few random points in a space with normal Euclidean metric, https://www.gnu.org/software/gsl/doc/html/qrng.html might help, though I never tested it. but if you just want few points, like for a color scheme, then you'll want to pick colors from the edges of the color space, like completely saturated or completely bright colors, so unless you use something too simple like RGB
17:57:39 <arseniiv> it might have a value of its own (though unrelated to what you have to do instead of procrastinating)
17:57:43 <b_jonas> distance as your metric, something like that won't be enough.
17:58:07 <arseniiv> hm didn’t seem like that :) if so you caught me
17:58:31 <arseniiv> I’m very trollable because of my strong presupposition of sincerity
17:58:50 <arseniiv> though in the end I learn and end up bitter to offending people :P
18:00:05 <arseniiv> BTW a real-time debugger for fungeoids would be rad
18:00:06 <b_jonas> ah, so that's a harmonica without the bellow, blown with your lungs and mouth?
18:00:25 <arseniiv> b_jonas: so is a regular harmonica? :D
18:00:40 <nakilon> it will be an annotator, a unique thing
18:00:46 <arseniiv> well, not glass harmonica but that’s not a harmonica
18:00:51 <nakilon> maybe it's how I should call it actually
18:02:35 <esolangs> [[BrainfOOP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83555 * 2000gmod * (+986) Created page with "'''BrainfOOP''' (also known as BrainFOOP, Brain-Foop, BFOOP or simply Brainfoop) is a variant of [[Brainfuck]] that implements object-oriented programming (OOP) to Brainfuck...."
18:02:36 <nakilon> wow 100% discount https://store.steampowered.com/app/424840/Little_Nightmares/ I saw this game on youtube
18:05:29 <b_jonas> arseniiv: ok, but harmonica makes me think of the instrument with a bellow and keyboard by default
18:05:38 <arseniiv> b_jonas: BTW if Hungarian words for harmonica and some accordion-like instruments are similar, the Russian situation is the same, harmonica is essentially “mouth <little>accordion” where accordion is not the accordion
18:06:02 <arseniiv> yeah! I think English here has some historical shenanigans to end up the way it did
18:06:03 <b_jonas> yes, it might be a language difference
18:06:30 <arseniiv> ending up with “harmonica” for exclusively the mouth variant
18:07:39 <b_jonas> ok, but does harmonica at least refer only to the ones with a keyboard?
18:07:52 <nakilon> I always forget all that thing about accordeons
18:08:20 <nakilon> there are even three words - аккордеон гармонь баян
18:08:23 <arseniiv> also a proper melodica has a tube to connect the mouth with the instrument body, and I think it should be able to open for cleaning (at least one guy in yt video claimed they all do open and showed how he cleaned his one)
18:08:58 <arseniiv> b_jonas: English harmonica is just with holes to blow into and no more, and melodica should be the one with keus
18:09:10 <arseniiv> I seem to be Greek today, keys*
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18:10:12 <b_jonas> ok, but then what is a mouth organ?
18:10:23 <arseniiv> nakilon: one of ABBYY dictionaries I have installed says баян is called “button accordion”, seems logical enough, but then it gives “accordion” to both of the others, welll
18:10:43 <arseniiv> b_jonas: that’s synonymous with harmonica
18:11:03 <b_jonas> and the one with a bellow but no keyboard is a bagpipe, right?
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18:12:41 <arseniiv> hm I didn’t thought they were that related before. Though bagpipe should be not a reed-something-phone so they’re not that close
18:13:08 <arseniiv> to be fair I don’t know if its pipes are woodwind-type or what
18:13:46 <nakilon> that scot instrument is волынка that is violin in english but it's not a violin, it's all messed...'
18:20:13 <fizzie> The instrument that's en:accordion is fi:haitari, a word which is used literally for that instrument, but figuratively also for any kind of range of values some fluctuating quantity could be in, like a price range. I think the intuition is, you stretch and squeeze an accordion, so it sort of defines a range. (We also have the word fi:harmonikka for the instrument, which is pretty clearly of Russian
18:22:27 <fizzie> As for en:harmonica, that's fi:huuliharppu, which literally translates as "lip harp".
18:23:01 <nakilon> article says these are harmonics https://pop-music.ru/upload/medialibrary/f11/f11b058e30f5e11af495e0dcc60093ca.png
18:23:19 <nakilon> and these are accordeon and bayan https://pop-music.ru/upload/medialibrary/787/7870651f091867dc791d16009cae56b8.png
18:23:47 <shachaf> And chromatic button accordions more generally.
18:24:33 <shachaf> I was secretly hoping the Russian word for accordion would use a ё.
18:25:44 <fizzie> nakilon: The first one in your first link is I think a "harmonium" in English.
18:26:34 <nakilon> wikipedia says " keyboard aerophone (G. Handharmonika)"
18:27:27 <fizzie> There's also that thing called a glass harmonica, which is a pretty weird-looking one.
18:28:19 <int-e> IIRC ё is usually written as е anyway. Ешик is the example I recall.
18:29:43 <int-e> It's been decades though :P
18:30:30 <fizzie> https://coimages.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/images/27/528/medium_E2011_130_9__0001_.jpg <- and this thing, which AIUI is called a Crystal Palace. ;)
18:30:46 <fizzie> But maybe it doesn't count as a kind of an instrument when there's only the one.
18:30:48 <int-e> err. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D1%91%D0%B6%D0%B8%D0%BA
18:31:14 <int-e> mixing up ш and ж is not good.
18:34:05 <int-e> It's particularly bad because that word is a mnemonic for the letter "ж" which looks a bit hedgehog-like.
18:34:25 <shachaf> I also like cats. My neighbor has a friendly cat.
18:34:38 <HackEso> cat: cat: No such file or directory
18:35:00 <HackEso> cat: ../cat: No such file or directory
18:35:12 <int-e> okay. that one did exist at some point
18:35:24 <HackEso> 7886:2016-05-06 <shachäf> ` mv cat junk \ 5779:2015-07-02 <int-̈e> ` sed -i \'s/$/ >^.^</\' cat \ 3768:2013-09-16 <Rouj̈o> cp oerjan/cat cat \ 3767:2013-09-16 <Rouj̈o> rm cat \ 3729:2013-09-11 <Rouj̈o> mv oerjan/cat cat \ 3727:2013-09-11 <oerjän> rm cat \ 3694:2013-09-10 <Rouj̈o> cat run > cat \ 3693:2013-09-10 <Rouj̈o> cat run | echo > cat \ 3692:2013-09-10 <Rouj̈o> mv cat run \ 3691:2013-09-10 <Rouj̈o> echo Meow~~ > cat \ 3690:2013-09-10 <Ro
18:35:34 <nakilon> Ешик sounds like some jew name
18:35:36 <fizzie> I saw a hedgehog snuffling around in the back garden / parking lot of the place we were renting before a couple of times.
18:35:44 <HackEso> cat: ../junk/cat: No such file or directory
18:35:51 <HackEso> cat: ../junk: No such file or directory
18:36:03 <HackEso> 7906:2016-05-07 <oerjän> ` mv junk/cat emoticons \ 7886:2016-05-06 <shachäf> ` mv cat junk
18:36:23 <HackEso> 10388:2017-03-10 <oerjän> mk emoticons/window//1+1 \ 10104:2017-01-07 <tsweẗt> echo \'\xc2\xaf\\_(\xe3\x83\x84)_/\xc2\xaf\' > emoticons/shrug2 \ 7906:2016-05-07 <oerjän> ` mv junk/cat emoticons \ 7905:2016-05-07 <oerjän> ` mv junk/:-D emoticons \ 5738:2015-06-25 <tsweẗt> echo \'\xe3\x83\xbc\xe3\x83\xbc\xe8\x9f\xb2\xe8\x9f\xb2\' > emoticons/swatter \ 5708:2015-06-24 <oren̈_> ` echo \xe5\x87\xb8 >emoticons/flipbird \ 5707:2015-06-24 <oren̈_> ` ec
18:36:30 <int-e> `cat ../emoticons/cat
18:36:46 <int-e> Some turbulent history there...
18:36:57 <HackEso> Why are you taking Polly down into the mine? Polly's a parrot, not a canary! And where's my cracker?
18:36:58 <nakilon> actually Ёж is the word kids are taught when they learn the alphabet
18:37:09 <fizzie> I was expecting something about cats in the canary.
18:37:33 <nakilon> https://static.my-shop.ru/product/3/268/2679778.jpg
18:38:00 <int-e> nakilon: I did learn it as a foreign language. But yeah, not sure why we learned the diminuative (that is what it is, right?).
18:38:45 <int-e> I also forgot most of it... but some small details still stick around.
18:38:52 <fizzie> int-e: To be fair, they're generally pretty small.
18:38:55 <nakilon> also fir (Ёлка) sometimes as you can see https://www.sunnytoy.ru/i/product_i/649_4_b.jpg
18:39:23 <nakilon> int-e yeah, the base form is еж
18:39:26 <int-e> fizzie: I know. I actually see one on occasion when going for a walk at night around here.
18:39:46 <nakilon> it's like... when you are kid you are suppose to speak in kinds words to everything around you and use the word ежик
18:40:06 <nakilon> it's like киса instead of кошка for a female cat
18:40:18 <nakilon> or котик instead of кот for male
18:40:47 <fizzie> Heh, "kissa" is the standard Finnish word for an adult cat of any gender.
18:41:16 <nakilon> we say kis-kis to call a cat
18:41:55 <shachaf> I'm told "kissa" was my first word.
18:42:21 <shachaf> Though it was probably a stretch to interpret it that way.
18:43:18 <int-e> hmm, funny, I can't think of a phrase like "come here, kitty-kitty" in german.
18:43:43 <shachaf> Wait, are "kissa" and "kitty" cognates?
18:44:31 <Taneb> Cybernetics and governor are cognate
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18:45:10 <int-e> https://www.etymonline.com/word/kitty relates kitty to Catherine
18:45:11 <shachaf> Spot of the cybernetics, governor?
18:46:21 <fizzie> I don't know why, but there's something I find really amusing about Wiktionary's laconic image subtitles. Like the one at https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kitten
18:46:33 <fizzie> I mean, it makes sense, it's just there to illustrate the word.
18:46:52 <fizzie> But still. At least it doesn't have a "Fig. 1" in front.
18:47:00 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Anticubex * New user account
18:47:22 <int-e> fizzie: what did you expect? "A kitten held hostage"? :-P
18:47:36 <shachaf> Wait, that kitten is so cute.
18:48:00 <b_jonas> fizzie: comes with the medium. in a paper dictionary most of the illustrations will have multiple things labelled in it to illustrate multiple words, and there are fewer illustrations in first place
18:48:26 <fizzie> I happened by the university library once, and on the table where they have new issues of journals, they had a maths journal of some kind, where somewhere pretty early on (inside front cover?) there was a fascinating picture of some kind of a graph, subtitled with: "Fig. 1: A fascinating picture."
18:48:30 <HackEso> Drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in ancient times.
18:49:30 <int-e> fizzie: heh. did you read the paper though? ;-)
18:50:04 <nakilon> кот кошка (rus) кiт кiшка (ukr), then the wiktionary says that in Czhe and Pol it's the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Sorbian_language and is "kot" that is from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgar_Latin " cattus "
18:51:03 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83556&oldid=83554 * Anticubex * (+155) /* Introductions */
18:52:20 <fizzie> int-e: I think I skimmed it, but no recollection. Also, I tried to search for that subtitle now, but aside from a few cases of "-- when blah blah (Fig. 1), a fascinating picture emerges --", the only hits were: https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2019-03-07.html#lEb -- https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2013-01-23.html#lFj -- https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2008-11-03.html#lvb
18:52:23 <int-e> I suspect the proprer way to attract a cat here is something like "na du?" which is close to the friendly version of "hey there!", perhaps. Nothing specific to cats comes to my mind. "Katze" is not very friendly sounding because of the tz.
18:52:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dominicentek * New user account
18:52:43 <fizzie> So this has been the fourth time I've mentioned it on-channel, and I'm never going to get any closer to actually finding what it was about.
18:53:31 <nakilon> also it says that it's wrong to assume it's from goth "katts" greek "κάττα" and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_German "katt" while from the vulgar latin it came to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Slavic_language as "*kotъ"
18:56:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83557&oldid=83556 * Dominicentek * (+184) /* Introductions */
18:56:46 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83558&oldid=83557 * Dominicentek * (+94) /* Introductions */
18:57:41 <esolangs> [[Flkl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83559&oldid=83533 * Salmmanfred * (-6659)
19:01:28 <nakilon> so since wikipedia says the name Katherine is from "Greek adjective καθαρός (katharos), meaning "pure"" then if "katharos" is the same as "κάττα" (and idk, have no clue in greek) then either there is something wrong or there is a connection between "greek" and "vulgar latin" that is missing in these articles
19:01:51 <nakilon> oh wait https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%AC%CF%84%CF%84%CE%B1 : Etymology Unknown but clearly related to Latin cattus (“cat”).
19:04:24 <nakilon> wait, but ru wiktionary says "it can't be from green katta because there it is known only since VI"... I'm lost ..D
19:05:24 <nakilon> maybe it means it was in latin and from there went to other languages separately
19:07:13 <esolangs> [[BrainfOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83560&oldid=83555 * 2000gmod * (+327)
19:08:00 <b_jonas> do all those come from an Egyptian word in first place?
19:10:12 <nakilon> but again in https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cattus#Latin it's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Uralic_language "*käďwä (“female (of a fur animal)”) -- here I'm already not sure about the "w" letter and it links to some hungary website that I don't understand at all http://uralonet.nytud.hu/eintrag.cgi?locale=en_GB&id_eintrag=222
19:11:15 <nakilon> b_jonas didn't hear any evidence of egyptians move to Ural ..D
19:15:35 <nakilon> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Uralic_homeland
19:16:29 <b_jonas> nakilon: no, I mean borrowed through ancient greek to other languages
19:16:48 <b_jonas> nakilon: like ancient romans mets cats in Egypt, and perhaps took their name from them
19:19:21 <nakilon> this states 3000 BC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cats_in_ancient_Egypt
19:20:15 <nakilon> this 7000-2000 BC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Uralic_language
19:20:54 <shachaf> Man, can you believe people have liked cats for thousands of years?
19:20:57 <nakilon> but we can't know when did the word appear because they probably didn't write much
19:21:23 <shachaf> Cats have just been around, doing their various cat things, and humans have been around having various human experiences like liking cats.
19:23:25 <fizzie> I think the point maybe was, before you had domesticated cats, maybe you didn't particularly need a word like "cat" (as opposed to whatever potential other words you had for wild members of the same family of species), and I think it's generally accepted cats were first domesticated in Egypt, so you could still have gotten the idea + a loanword from there, even if you had a language of your own
19:23:33 <fizzie> (Not getting involved in tracing the words, though; it's too much not an exact science.)
19:24:24 <fizzie> shachaf: Do you think people will go on liking cats for more thousands of years, though? Probably. Maybe.
19:24:58 <shachaf> I mean, certainly if there are people and there are cats.
19:27:12 <nakilon> btw those articles don't really say if the word "kat" was about domesticated cats or just any
19:28:45 <nakilon> this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_domesticated_cat says: "... the earlier origin to Southwest Asia"
19:29:15 <esolangs> [[BrainfOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83561&oldid=83560 * 2000gmod * (+1228)
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19:30:26 <esolangs> [[BrainfOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83562&oldid=83561 * 2000gmod * (-18)
19:31:21 <b_jonas> fizzie: some people predict no, because cats won't be as friendly as today, because they're selectively breeded against because cat owners neuter their cats but don't touch wild cats, so the thousand year long work of domesticating housecats will quickly get mostly undone
19:32:55 <nakilon> shachaf look at this guy https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%82#/media/%D0%A4%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BB:Felis_silvestris_silvestris.jpg
19:33:19 <b_jonas> take "friendly" in a relative way restricted to how it applies to cat obviously
19:34:57 <b_jonas> that said, perhaps we'll have robot cats instead
19:43:48 <fizzie> There's that game about robots that have real cats.
19:44:18 <fizzie> I've left the tab open for who knows how long, because that's the only way I know of to manage "take a look at this thing at some point" URLs.
19:45:51 <fizzie> That's why the "main" browser window has 93 tabs and you can only barely see the favicons.
19:47:42 <int-e> . o O ( sudo reboot )
19:49:27 <fizzie> I've told this story before too, but I knew someone who was doing the same in Firefox, except that they never clicked the "restore tabs" button, instead leaving them "in" the restore dialog tab, nested more and more deeply every time they had to restart the browser.
19:49:52 <fizzie> Turns out if you do that, it takes O(2^n) space in your Firefox profile.
19:50:30 -!- sknebel has changed nick to can.
19:50:37 <fizzie> Because it's all JSON, and the "nesting" involves putting all the serialized JSON into a string, so you go " -> \" -> \\\" -> \\\\\\\" -> ...
19:50:40 -!- can has changed nick to sknebel.
19:54:02 <b_jonas> fizzie: I have heard of people who have thousands of tabs open in their browser, though that's probably more common in Chrome than in Firefox
19:54:40 <fizzie> Yeah. I just declare a tabocalypse every now and then to reset.
19:54:59 <fizzie> Maybe "tab amnesty" is a better word.
19:55:00 <arseniiv> was it mentioned that etymology of кошка isn’t quite known? Bulgarian котка is more faithful to the hypothesized rules. Hm though now it seems to say that’s alright making an example of Марья > Машка. So I remember something wrong, then
19:56:40 <int-e> Funny, this may be the first real-life example of unbounded nesting of string quoting that I've come across.
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19:56:59 <b_jonas> I usually only have between two and twenty tabs open, and I don't think I've ever gone above fifty
19:58:18 <b_jonas> I do often have multiple windows though, up to I think five in the worst case, when watching a video or when typing or proofreading something in one window that I read from another
19:59:10 <b_jonas> or more generally, to have a page shown in an unusual window size, which is the common reason for videos too
19:59:36 <b_jonas> like text pages in a narrower window than widescreen video
20:00:11 <b_jonas> and twitch in a wider window than youtube because twitch uses part of the horizontal screen estate for chat
20:02:03 <arseniiv> <int-e> IIRC ё is usually written as е anyway. => yeah I secretly envy Spanish obligatory accents and this. Optionality of dots in ё is even codified; one more reason to not follow the literary norm
20:03:33 <arseniiv> <nakilon> Ешик sounds like some jew name => for me it sounds Bashkir/Tatar as I live nearby
20:05:38 <arseniiv> <int-e> nakilon: I did learn it as a foreign language. But yeah, not sure why we learned the diminuative (that is what it is, right?). => for me personally it seems people rarely say ёж the non-diminutive, maybe that’s my city-dwelling distortion though
20:06:33 <nakilon> tabocalypse -- this damn thing happens on it own after you collect tabs for two years
20:07:06 <nakilon> sometimes no knowledge about chrome internals can help -- it's just gone
20:07:47 <fizzie> Yeah, that's another reason why it's not a great practice for reference management.
20:08:17 <arseniiv> <fizzie> Heh, "kissa" is the standard Finnish word for an adult cat of any gender. => oh! that’s perfect!! I wish I could say now I’m going to learn Finnish but I won’t, more languages are a serious commitment
20:08:25 <fizzie> arseniiv: Our diacritics are critical too; there's a lot of pairs where both are valid, with entirely unrelated meanings. saari/sääri -> leg/island, hella/hellä -> stove/tender.
20:08:41 <nakilon> arseniiv they would say еж on TV in news reports
20:10:21 <nakilon> diacritics... we just write both words in the same way and call it omonym, expecting from you to guess from the context
20:10:30 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, Hungarian has much fewer of those, especially when the words are in context in a sentence. the few remaining ones are noun or verb grammatical infections where a/e vs á/é makes a difference. when I type Hungarian without diacritics on IRC or skype or email, I often still use diacritics for a few words where it would cause confusion.
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20:11:03 <int-e> arseniiv: yeah they are cute and small
20:15:04 <arseniiv> fizzie: I was doing something like you to look at something later (indefinitely later, eventually) but then I started trying to collect that kind of links in bookmarks, adding some tags in hope I’ll find something useful later, like dogs with bones
20:16:51 <arseniiv> sometimes even placed by folders, though they are for more immediate attention
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20:34:21 <esolangs> [[BrainfOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83563&oldid=83562 * 2000gmod * (+51)
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20:43:44 <esolangs> [[BrainfOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83564&oldid=83563 * 2000gmod * (+337)
20:45:46 <esolangs> [[BrainfOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83565&oldid=83564 * 2000gmod * (+53)
20:46:24 <esolangs> [[User:2000gmod]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83566 * 2000gmod * (+82) Created page with "I'm 2000gmod, engineering student from Chile. Currently creating my first esolang."
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20:47:01 <esolangs> [[BrainfOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83567&oldid=83565 * 2000gmod * (+9)
20:49:48 <esolangs> [[BrainfOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83568&oldid=83567 * 2000gmod * (+31)
20:51:53 <esolangs> [[Milk]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83569 * Salmmanfred * (+702) Created page with "== Milk == A concept for the milk language created by ~~~ === Concept === Milk <br> Add milk - adds milk to the carton a variable that controls the interpreters urges <br> Po..."
21:03:47 <keegan> by restricting the color space (here 4 bits per channel) you can do exhaustive search on each row rather than random https://ibin.co/63QdSeBPFrmG.png
21:05:04 <keegan> for each row we loop through all 4096 colors and pick the one that maximizes the minimum distance to any color already picked
21:07:40 <fizzie> Can you then do a second higher-resolution search in the neighbourhood? If so, will the only benefit of that be that your hex values will look more precise, increasing the believability of the statement that a highly paid brand doctor chose these specific colour values?
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21:11:30 <keegan> I should note that CSS already has a syntax for 12-bit colors but it works slightly differently
21:11:38 <keegan> the values are spaced by 0x11 rather than 0x10
21:11:49 <keegan> so #000 = #000000, #888 = #888888, #fff = #ffffff
21:12:53 <nakilon> keegan by doing the exhaustive search you are probably doing worse, because it's less similar to doing the golden ratio
21:13:53 <nakilon> I would rather iterate until I estimate the maximal available distance and then chose it divided by some constant that is kind of golden ratio but in 3d and might be found empirically somehow by a lot of tries and measuring the quality of result
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21:26:22 <nakilon> meh https://i.imgur.com/HWHgK3a.png can't figure out neither how to set square shaped buttons, nor font size, not how to catch keypress events... so this was my first ruby+tk try but at least it didn't segfault
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21:28:43 <nakilon> another alternative is Opal and there it is possible to style with CSS but idk about events
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21:33:26 <int-e> nakilon: is that iOS? I bet they have a rule against anything with right-angled corners :P
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21:35:29 <nakilon> actually no, Opal sucks since " is for creating documents not interactive applications." so the SWT remains but it's jRuby that is all buggy and old
21:36:02 <int-e> same comment though :P
21:36:08 <nakilon> I meant setting the size of the buttons -- I can set width but the "height" throws an error, lol
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21:38:32 <int-e> btw, I actually scared up a hedgehog (poor thing) 20 minutes ago
21:38:59 <int-e> quite the conicidence, these encounters are rare for me, maybe 3 times a year.
21:39:37 <int-e> walking outside, passing by a graveyard
21:42:14 -!- Hooloovo- has changed nick to hooloovoo.
21:43:48 <int-e> they're nocturnal but predators? hardly.
21:44:52 <nakilon> it's night, they are hunting for such as you but smaller
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22:12:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TheoCGaming * New user account
22:14:56 <esolangs> [[BrainfOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83570&oldid=83568 * 2000gmod * (+11)
22:15:01 <zzo38> What is properly the definition of "a Funge"?
22:20:45 <esolangs> [[BrainfOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83571&oldid=83570 * 2000gmod * (+0)
22:21:11 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * 2000gmod * moved [[BrainfOOP]] to [[Brainfoop]]: Better name
22:21:43 <esolangs> [[Brainfoop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83574&oldid=83572 * 2000gmod * (+11)
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22:22:55 <fizzie> The wiki has a page on that, though it's just someone's opinion: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fungeoid
22:23:14 <fizzie> I kind of agree that the key differentiator is that there should be some sort of an instruction pointer that has some kind of notion of direction of movement, and some kind of space in which to move, and the space should be some kind of a geometrical one instead of a purely abstract one (like a graph).
22:23:23 <fizzie> There's probably a better way of putting that.
22:26:57 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83575&oldid=83558 * TheoCGaming * (+229) /* Introductions */ just my introduction
22:27:25 <esolangs> [[Entropy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83576&oldid=75202 * TheoCGaming * (+2874) Added a new program section for a FizzBuzz program, originally created by Truttle1, also added a link to his video.
22:29:09 <nakilon> "so the SWT remains but it's jRuby that is all buggy and old" -- meh, jruby just does not install ..\
22:29:43 <fizzie> While I'm fiddling with these things, here's a piece of evidence showing that 2011 is probably when peak #esoteric was reached: https://0x0.st/-2uJ.txt
22:34:53 <esolangs> [[Entropy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83577&oldid=83576 * TheoCGaming * (+82) /* FizzBuzz */ tried to clean up my edit
22:37:40 <esolangs> [[Entropy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83578&oldid=83577 * TheoCGaming * (+12) /* FizzBuzz */ cleaning it up further...
22:49:24 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83579&oldid=83553 * S1(210) * (-20) /* Heading text */
22:55:20 <fizzie> arseniiv: The person with the melodica said Yamaha's Pianicas are in general good yet affordable. And linked to https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/winds/pianica/index.html
22:55:38 <fizzie> arseniiv: (Paraphrasing/translating) "the yellow p-25f is a bit too small, but even the p-32d probably doesn't need much upgrading". Says he plays "almost exclusively" those, last time just an hour ago.
22:55:52 <fizzie> I'm not qualified to comment on the quality of the advice, YMMV.
22:59:05 <esolangs> [[Brainfoop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83580&oldid=83574 * 2000gmod * (-5)
23:28:27 <arseniiv> even though that’s a personal taste advice, it’s useful to me
23:32:28 <fizzie> Now I'm tempted to work melodicas in the topic somehow.
23:35:22 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83581&oldid=83579 * S1(210) * (-921) /* Specification */
23:35:53 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83582&oldid=83581 * S1(210) * (-1) /* Overview */
23:40:38 <arseniiv> fizzie: … liberated melodica of esoteric …?
23:42:19 <arseniiv> int-e: do ##math usually see the lambdabot of day?
23:42:39 <int-e> no, ##math has no bots
23:42:54 <b_jonas> you know the saying "if brute force doesn't work, you're not using enough of it"? what is the analogous saying about solving problems by throwing more money at them?
23:48:12 <nakilon> so SWT empty window app starts in 7 seconds
23:48:22 <nakilon> and it's after their blog post "Halved Startup Time"
23:48:52 <nakilon> "that's all you should know about Java"
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23:59:27 <fizzie> int-e: A channel with no bots? Is that even legal.