> 1622592105 965971 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AEWNN14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83820 5* 03ResU 5* (+1335) 10Created page with "'''AEWNN''' (or '''An esolang with no name''') is an esolang created by [[User:ResU]] in 2021. ==Variables== There are two types of variables: letter variables and VariablesWi..." > 1622592377 832191 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Malbolge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83821&oldid=41030 5* 03Monochromeninja 5* (+1824) 10/* Python interpreter */ new section > 1622592865 424929 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Emoji-gramming14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83822&oldid=57083 5* 03Monochromeninja 5* (+445) 10/* Sign checking */ new section > 1622593113 705835 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AEWNN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83823&oldid=83820 5* 03ResU 5* (+6) 10 < 1622593324 633373 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN :#esolangs < 1622593433 434819 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :A reason needing writing better web browser software is that existing software is like http://catb.org/jargon/html/U/user-friendly.html (It is one thing, not all of them, of course) < 1622593509 865951 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :Macintrash lol > 1622593938 529831 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ResU14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83824 5* 03ResU 5* (+68) 10Created page with "My esolangs: [[AEWNN]] (planned to make more esolangs in the future)" < 1622594076 717657 :BlueFalconHD!~BlueFalco@c-76-107-128-129.hsd1.ms.comcast.net JOIN :#esolangs > 1622594240 236988 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ResU14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83825&oldid=83824 5* 03ResU 5* (+12) 10 < 1622594288 301189 :BlueFalconHD!~BlueFalco@c-76-107-128-129.hsd1.ms.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :? < 1622594291 908670 :BlueFalconHD!~BlueFalco@c-76-107-128-129.hsd1.ms.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :what? < 1622595109 934048 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I agree, those should be unordered-list bullet points instead. < 1622596694 624756 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1622597200 761267 :BlueFalconHD!~BlueFalco@c-76-107-128-129.hsd1.ms.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1622597332 845666 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :some trivial things you want to make for years but are lazy for no reason < 1622597661 278563 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :$ ruby upload.rb empty_file < 1622597661 404163 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :uploading as http://md5.nakilon.pro/d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e < 1622597661 404320 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :$ ruby upload.rb empty_file < 1622597661 404403 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :file exists as http://md5.nakilon.pro/d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e < 1622597704 759519 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :finally I made a bucket to store arbitrary files under their md5 < 1622597715 117782 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN :#esolangs < 1622597731 404022 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure it loses the content-type but why would you download something without knowing what it is?.. < 1622598002 754058 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :why would you use md5 for anything new in the year 2021? < 1622598068 24047 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :why not? < 1622598100 656298 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :because it's extremely broken as far as cryptographic properties go, and if you don't need those properties there are better (mainly, faster) hash functions you can use < 1622598126 921220 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a hash sum of a file < 1622598134 93223 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's not a password < 1622598160 264385 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's easy to generate pairs of files with the same md5 sum < 1622598161 452068 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it's a public bucket < 1622598174 928933 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :this might be only a nuisance in your use case and not a security concern, but it's still easy to avoid < 1622598181 584754 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a public file storage -- what is the scenario of generating pairs of files? < 1622598218 760819 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is just no use case for which md5 is the best choice < 1622598232 811590 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :this one < 1622598233 122988 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :except legacy systems < 1622598237 637585 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :no < 1622598249 616471 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :use sha256 and you won't need to worry about collisions (at least for the time being) < 1622598264 947898 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is paranoidal < 1622598278 726321 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :how many files you should upload to get a collision? < 1622598286 175715 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :only two if it's deliberate < 1622598295 691712 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is paranoidal < 1622598296 818482 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think a generation of programmers was taught that "hash function" is synonymous with "md5" and they will never upgrade to something not broken < 1622598300 5774 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh well < 1622598317 361982 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's no reason to use the broken thing when non-broken things exist that are better in every way < 1622598319 785716 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I agree that you shouldn't use MD5 hashes to identify files; there are better hashes such as SHA-3 < 1622598325 920082 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :just having md5 code in your codebase is a risk < 1622598335 408315 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :"oh we aren't using these for cryptographic purposes, it's fine" < 1622598337 663232 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :...years later... < 1622598349 54463 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :what's the reason to select custom hash function for a bucket that I will upload a thousand of files in my whole life to? < 1622598353 601499 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :"custom"? < 1622598359 440853 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :in what way is SHA256 more "custom" than MD5 < 1622598371 650929 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :they are both standards available in every modern hash function library < 1622598381 322923 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :in what way md5 is more custom than sha256? < 1622598385 325769 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :you just got it in your brain that MD5 is "the" hash function < 1622598388 265070 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that's wrong < 1622598393 715899 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and reveals you to be severely behind the times < 1622598399 982093 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :you are angry on your own fantasies < 1622598400 486722 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Fossil uses MD5, but not to identify files. Rather, each deck ends with a Z card which has the MD5 hash of all preceding cards, and then the resulting deck is identified by the SHA-1 or SHA3-256 hash of the entire deck including the Z card. < 1622598414 320715 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :fantasies that someone is stupid enough to not know about hash functions < 1622598429 486571 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :angry without understanding the use case < 1622598438 348455 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i've made my case and you choose not to understand it < 1622598439 415124 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's fine < 1622598442 538157 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i'm going to eat pizza now so ttyl < 1622598462 818089 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :you are just saying random trivia that is not applicable < 1622598498 483838 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :wasting attention on inexisting problem < 1622598538 159348 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Some protocols require MD5, such as the HTTP auth < 1622598680 959404 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I must be using the HTTP auth because I'm from a "generation of programmers was taught that "hash function" is synonymous with "md5"" < 1622598701 292430 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :and probably my empty bucket will be used for a Mars mission < 1622598726 352691 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Even if you are, that doesn't mean that MD5 should also be used for other purposes too < 1622598731 708976 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I agree with the "there's no valid use case for MD5 except where it's required for interoperability" case. Libraries will eventually stop offering it as a choice; that's a good enough reason to not to pick it even when the choice would be otherwise arbitrary. < 1622598773 990299 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :but where did I say that I should use md5 everywhere? it's just a way I index files in my bucket that I don't even immediately use < 1622598873 560064 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :but why'd you choose it < 1622598878 79413 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :when it's known to be broken < 1622598884 532534 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and you could choose something not known to be broken, with zero downside? < 1622598894 82956 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :you won't be even able to make me a problem because you don't have an Upload access to the bucket < 1622598913 250401 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's broken only in your fantasies < 1622598931 411185 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :in fact I'll never have an issue with this bucket and script < 1622598959 802624 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :MD5 hashes are also shorter than SHA-1 hashes or SHA3-256 hashes < 1622598966 64981 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :that may be, but there is still no reason to choose the broken thing < 1622598988 910027 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is no more sense in chosing another hash function for my bucket than in using Pi as 3.14 and a million of digits after . < 1622599035 53947 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38 and it might be a reason to use it because it's an utl to a file -- it's good when it's short < 1622599042 223205 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*url > 1622599052 875250 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Typeform14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83826 5* 03S1(210) 5* (+273) 10creating page with language idea < 1622599066 11918 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, but you could shorten it by using base64 instead of hex, or something like that < 1622599149 285879 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :using md5 is shoddy engineering that reveals you don't really care about doing things right, even if it doesn't cause any immediate practical issue in this particular application < 1622599154 703666 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's all < 1622599157 352238 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you disagree that's fine < 1622599164 503187 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's no reason for me to keep stating this < 1622599241 441856 :pikhq!sid394595@user/pikhq PRIVMSG #esolangs :i mean if being short is all that matters why not crc32? < 1622599254 571428 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i didn't mean to shit on your accomplishment but i guess we both got confrontational about it < 1622599269 467040 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :CRC-32 is probably way too short for that, collisions are too likely even if accidentally < 1622599270 483732 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, 32 bits is short enough to worry about even accidental collisions < 1622599275 729642 :pikhq!sid394595@user/pikhq PRIVMSG #esolangs :good point < 1622599279 203426 :pikhq!sid394595@user/pikhq PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry, context matters < 1622599284 614614 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38 the "/" char would create a folders in bucket tree for no reason; also I like how hex looks < 1622599346 51836 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1622599349 695757 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm surprised base62 is used so little. I guess it's because you can usually find at least two more safe characters, like the URL-safe variant's _- pair. < 1622599350 153262 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: You can use a variant of base64 with different characters in use < 1622599412 320237 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38 adding some custom library dependency to my script... < 1622599460 557927 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a lot more annoying to implement when the base is not a power of 2 < 1622599462 733052 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe my stdlib even has base64, still it's overcomplicating things for no real purpose < 1622599470 107415 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean base62 < 1622599600 946934 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :and yes, right before starting making the script I googled the length of crc32 and md5 < 1622599641 193886 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :and make a choice between them < 1622599844 526992 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, maybe HackEso's `paste should have used a hash function for the file name for deduplication purposes... but then it'd have to rename the file after the fact, because it needs to (really *only*) work for non-seekable inputs. < 1622599851 717084 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it's probably not worth it. There are a total of four pastes that have been pasted twice, and a single paste (unsurprisingly, the empty file) that has been pasted 7 times. < 1622599866 756665 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think people have been cleaning up that directory every now and then though. < 1622600077 653556 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Can any newer hashing algorithms which have a secondary hash starting at a different offset and then add that hash at the end of the data when computing the primary hash? (e.g. similar to having H(X||H("0"||X)) although you can do other things such as having different parameters for the secondary hash, or adding the length differently, etc) < 1622600079 291033 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :this reminds me how people love to play in an echo chamber about "regexes can't parse HTML/XML" < 1622600120 754530 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :because it's easier and funnier to be in an echo chamber than learn that some regex engines support recursion and parse HTML/XLS with no issues < 1622600146 845581 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN :#esolangs < 1622600201 819065 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :living in imaginary world where they've learned some "rules" of how things work and can't be assed to learn more < 1622600443 870734 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1622600739 627072 :moon!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony NICK :cd < 1622600960 86189 :pikhq!sid394595@user/pikhq PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd argue said regexes are not regexes < 1622600967 919694 :pikhq!sid394595@user/pikhq PRIVMSG #esolangs :because regex refers to... regular expressions < 1622600981 307992 :pikhq!sid394595@user/pikhq PRIVMSG #esolangs :instead they're regex-flavored programming languages because pain :) < 1622601131 248289 :Noisytoot!noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in < 1622601176 132780 :Noisytoot!noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN :#esolangs < 1622601435 884034 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN :#esolangs < 1622601711 797780 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1622601859 329914 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah < 1622601872 98536 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it just depends on how you define the word "regex" < 1622601957 669672 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's also the question of whether you *should* try to parse HTML/XML with such grotesquely-extended regex engines even though you *can* < 1622601969 436642 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :but this is #esolangs so I guess the answer to that one is affirmative :) < 1622602002 632499 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :regardless, attempting to do anything tree-shaped with a regex is usually a sign that you're doing it wrong and should consider a different approach < 1622602036 72121 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think I've ever come across a purported XML-munching regular expression that'd deal with , even though it's certainly possible. < 1622602926 824448 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :computational linguists are so pedantic < 1622602999 15772 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN :#esolangs < 1622603018 172178 :cd!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony NICK :moon < 1622603118 547309 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thinking they can proscribe what regular expressions are - they should be studying how real groups of people _use_ regexes and simple describe < 1622603309 496949 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(that's (supposed) to be a joke, just in case anyone strongly disagrees, or worse, agrees) < 1622603315 822724 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol < 1622603318 836407 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wasn't totally sure ;) < 1622603332 903097 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think descriptive computer languages theory is a good idea though! < 1622603366 496487 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's definitely something people do < 1622603378 211011 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :take popular ad-hoc features and try to formalize them < 1622603405 376214 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :@wn proscribe < 1622603407 245700 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :*** "proscribe" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" < 1622603409 271771 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :proscribe < 1622603411 253343 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : v 1: command against; "I forbid you to call me late at night"; < 1622603413 259376 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : "Mother vetoed the trip to the chocolate store"; "Dad nixed < 1622603415 256446 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : our plans" [syn: {forbid}, {prohibit}, {interdict}, < 1622603417 347799 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : {proscribe}, {veto}, {disallow}, {nix}] [ant: {allow}, < 1622603419 259483 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : {countenance}, {let}, {permit}] < 1622603494 681124 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ugh, I used the wrong word: prescribe I meant. < 1622603557 471207 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's "inflammable" all over again < 1622603583 357390 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :can lambdabot adjust line width? < 1622603602 152019 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no < 1622603622 386923 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It feels like there could be a joke in there. I wish I'd done it deliberately. You can't proscribe what word I use to mean x ... or something < 1622603625 679963 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :needs some regexes < 1622604113 960091 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1622604156 349252 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :imagine that at the time you were learning programming people naming 10 random languages were not naming those that they would name today http://www.softpanorama.org/Bulletin/Humor/how_programmers_hunt_elephants.shtml < 1622604159 122528 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :except C < 1622604188 374041 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :even 12 < 1622604257 893971 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm half of them sound like dbms though < 1622604328 549072 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN :#esolangs < 1622604336 234741 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1622604393 906122 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1622604453 484296 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :two other lists can be found on this page http://www.softpanorama.org/Lang/programming_languages_humor.shtml > 1622604698 548545 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Goglesq 5* 10New user account < 1622604871 567622 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN :#esolangs < 1622605051 751354 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :half of text on this page is written before my birth I guess < 1622605152 529060 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds > 1622605539 256808 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83827&oldid=83815 5* 03Goglesq 5* (+247) 10 > 1622605796 26966 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83828&oldid=83765 5* 03Goglesq 5* (+14) 10 < 1622605932 738719 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.180.220.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esolangs < 1622605991 550077 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN :#esolangs < 1622606292 503052 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1622606469 463942 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :? discriptive linguistics > 1622607125 148104 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NScript14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83829 5* 03Goglesq 5* (+1955) 10Created page with "NScript is a basic esoteric language designed to be at least somewhat unique. NScript has a couple nicknames by the creator: NS, NoahScript NS has plenty of flexibility and ha..." < 1622607434 92223 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN :#esolangs < 1622607696 14059 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1622608448 516364 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN :#esolangs > 1622608504 609943 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83830&oldid=83829 5* 03Goglesq 5* (+2115) 10 > 1622608627 215160 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83831&oldid=83830 5* 03Goglesq 5* (+0) 10 < 1622608724 554120 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1622609413 560669 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN :#esolangs < 1622609712 499799 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1622610515 82475 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN :#esolangs < 1622610771 3983 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1622612219 345052 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN :#esolangs < 1622612489 225170 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1622612636 993393 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN :#esolangs < 1622613062 115781 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :is it German? can anyone read it? https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~301174~90071678:Statistical-Table--Evangelisch---Lu?sort=pub_list_no_initialsort%2Cpub_list_no_initialsort%2Cpub_date%2Cpub_date&qvq=q:pub_title%3D%22Atlas%20der%20Evangelisch%20-%20Lutherischen%20Gemeinen%20in%20Russland.%20St.%20Petersburg.%20Buchdruckere < 1622613062 245226 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :i%20der%20Kaiserlichen%20Akademie%20der%20Wissenschaften.%201855.%22;sort:pub_list_no_initialsort%2Cpub_list_no_initialsort%2Cpub_date%2Cpub_date;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=12&trs=13 < 1622613110 227824 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :shorter link: https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~301174~90071678:Statistical-Table--Evangelisch---Lu < 1622613252 763268 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1622613375 998982 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought I recognised 'soul' in Seelenzabl -- which seems to be "soul count" < 1622613382 425356 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a religious census? < 1622613427 774104 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :4394 souls per priest < 1622613519 513416 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's stats appendix pages to maps, it's the last page of stats and others are pages per guberniya < 1622613555 63852 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :on this page I wonder what the biggest titles say < 1622613575 513123 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :"souls per priest" -- interesting < 1622613624 833739 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, 'zahl', as in zahlen ℤ < 1622613630 911478 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the final thing is "summary of all consistorial districts in russia" < 1622613764 655637 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The total number of souls in lutheran settlements in Russia for the time from 1853 to 1854, amounts to < 1622613860 218890 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN :#esolangs < 1622613970 995576 :sprock!~sprocklem@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1622613977 466207 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Евангелическо-лютеранская церковь в России, Украине, в Казахстане и Средней Азии is a thing it seems < 1622614094 403170 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :reminds me -- does Google home exist in Russia? I was yelling at my Google home in frustration trying to listen to specific Russian soundtrack music that it played to me first and I wanted to hear again < 1622614097 182896 :sprock!~sprocklem@user/sprock JOIN :#esolangs < 1622614124 115680 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1622614147 684120 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :there should be a town Melitopol somewhere on the right page here, I can't find it: https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~301173~90071677:Statistical-Table--Evangelisch---Lu < 1622614178 752449 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :after ages of tweaking settings I got it to correctly recognise me saying 'поход' and it was spelled correctly on screen, then it's spin a bit and convert it to some silly English word and play me random stuff based on that < 1622614179 126233 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :the right side is Tavricheskaya Gubernya that is this region https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%83%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B4 < 1622614191 693474 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the yellow one) < 1622614270 498728 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx not sure, but Russian analogue is from Yandex, called Yandex Alisa or something -- it's a name of the voice driven assistant < 1622614277 301677 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm trying to match that with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courland < 1622614297 280343 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx https://yandex.ru/alice/smart-home < 1622614362 402928 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e not sure what you mean, that's 1500km away < 1622614406 413810 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :but if you mean the administrative division then the analogue would be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courland_Governorate < 1622614463 587200 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so yeah, this is the proper link to the right page : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurida_Governorate -- you see there is "Melitopolsky Uyezd (Melitopol – Мелитополь)" in wikipedia article < 1622614670 550708 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's here in the middle https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~301169~90071673:Die-Kolonien-in-den-Gouvernements-J < 1622614829 95536 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN :#esolangs < 1622614904 143246 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :interesting, I have one of those JBL speakers that work with the Yandex assisant. The vague non-committal Google messages make some sense now if the Russian market is already covered. It's like they'd started trying to support it years ago but not bothered getting over the line, unlike other languages(/markets) < 1622614908 429795 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it's outside of the red regions, so it's not part of the statistics < 1622614980 780714 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e that's weird, it's the center of Melitopolsky Uyezd < 1622615008 16374 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah those green and red regions don't make sense to me < 1622615029 902086 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :red = protestant/lutheran, yellow = catholic; your statistics were for lutheran areas. < 1622615096 8492 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1622615111 680451 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh you mean the map author only provided stats for regions that were relevant to him? < 1622615111 835896 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :your statistics are lutheran souls, so... yeah.. Melitopol would not be included < 1622615129 292518 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought those are just population charts and have to include all the biggest towns < 1622615164 966910 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nah I think it's just people associated with the church, not the whole population. < 1622615177 877156 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, thanks < 1622615218 360138 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Take the number for Moscow: 8251 people in 1853... < 1622615238 956908 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Surely that was a fairly small part of the population. < 1622615305 726920 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx from some points of view it's harder for Google to compete in Russia because Yandex was the first Web Search engine, a year before Google, and all the technologies then were built in parallel but Google has no clue in Russian language so the indexing, ranking and stuff is hard for them < 1622615339 360402 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :or "the first morphological search", I don't remember the details < 1622615367 353878 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :companies are technologically nearly equal, Google is just bigger < 1622615394 958029 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :proportionally to US economical size < 1622615406 712303 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_(virtual_assistant) has interesting comments about Russian speech recognition complexity too < 1622615448 86511 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN :#esolangs < 1622615455 96910 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e yeah but I would sudgest those numbers to be in thousands; then 8mln would be too much for that year, yeah < 1622615483 486617 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx Alisa is one of the services that is a lot ahead of Google's Assistant < 1622615547 721731 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :google Assistant can set a timer and tell a weather, Alisa at that time was doing relevant jokes, sarcasm, had a mood, was learning your conversation habits, etc. < 1622615604 260550 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: nah, these are pretty surely raw numbers, single souls. < 1622615650 844105 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, I realize I mistranslated "Gemeinen" - these are communes. < 1622615811 170569 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh now it makes sense, int-e here is the first page of the book: https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~301163~90071667:Title-and-Index-Page--Atlas-der-Eva < 1622615851 518050 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :interesting, the book in German was published in Peterburg < 1622615886 739205 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.180.220.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1622616067 72900 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN :#esolangs < 1622616321 89639 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1622616539 49899 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx basically because Yandex is much smaller it's easier to get things done; i.e. to make a prototype of such thing like Alisa it takes a team of guy with ideas, a mobile app dev, NLP guy, audio recognition guy -- they are all working within the same building and can gather for a meeting or a dinner in 5-10 minutes < 1622617517 883084 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.180.220.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esolangs > 1622617727 508599 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Polyglot14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83832&oldid=40598 5* 03ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) 5* (+485) 10 > 1622617739 473921 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Polyglot14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83833&oldid=83832 5* 03ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) 5* (+1) 10 < 1622617804 962089 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN :#esolangs < 1622618082 85649 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1622618768 90178 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN :#esolangs < 1622618894 593205 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1622619021 8998 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1622619719 538151 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN :#esolangs < 1622620010 546971 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1622620305 57878 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :" i don't play many games but when i do it's often because they are mentioned here" => yes, that helps, people here often give good recommendations < 1622620317 157331 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN :#esolangs < 1622620325 766543 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :" I think now half my games are those which were mentioned here :D" => by people other than you? < 1622620341 237053 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Client Quit < 1622620387 357699 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://twitter.com/d_feldman/status/1399951777051598849 < 1622620773 330623 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :why dont we get about/esolangs cloaks < 1622620788 22315 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :by registering as a community < 1622620942 245513 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :AIUI fizzie has mailed staff about it < 1622620979 493955 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :river: we're in the queue < 1622621041 527217 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok < 1622621081 654012 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :See also https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_portal#Freenode_and_the_future < 1622621192 417760 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: one of the last steps to make the move to libera/#esolangs official will be to edit https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal to say "official home" again. I didn't dare to do that, but if you wish, you can now. < 1622621245 674334 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :putting it in the official password of the month was a good move too < 1622621276 729772 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it seemed topical and simultaneously appropriate for the meme < 1622621290 852413 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmmm < 1622621294 674187 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah < 1622621304 224305 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was considering "dvd demagnetizer" as the password, but this is better < 1622621368 551996 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1622621392 661108 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :the "normal" page of the map like this https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~285423~90057692# has the link "View in Georeferencerer" but then I don't see a way to get from the georeferencerer back to normal page, that is vital because it has the Export button... I opened like 100 maps via Georeferencerer map navigation and see < 1622621392 839884 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :no way to now export what I need... < 1622621577 541442 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN :#esolangs < 1622621611 311675 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :`password < 1622621612 690440 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ffklwnqmpoyfcqh < 1622621632 228878 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`' river < 1622621633 196905 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :188) vorpal: a lot of people in AK fly quintopia, well getting a pilot cert is a lot more complex than a driving license :P being an AK resident is a lot more complex than a driver's license too < 1622621635 848685 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? password < 1622621640 96000 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The password of the month is moving to Libera Chat. < 1622624661 560978 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :(found it, there is a hyperlink "Website") < 1622625089 131480 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esolangs :iirc, i learned about df here < 1622625118 432686 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :Dwarf Fortress or the unix command < 1622625131 281089 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` df -h < 1622625132 677943 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /bin \ none 997M 0 997M 0% /dev \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /lib \ tmpfs 124M 0 124M 0% /tmp \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /usr \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /sbin \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /lib64 \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /hackenv \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /hac < 1622625135 818473 :Noisytoot!noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in < 1622625158 885317 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm struggling to find a direct treatment of the orientability of a disk -- seems like it should be pretty straightforward, but the fact I can't find any clear statements about it has me confused. Everyone talks endlessly about Mobius strips and more complex objeccts < 1622625180 301008 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Taneb: the game would be my guess :) < 1622625181 622081 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esolangs :dwarf fortress < 1622625188 965197 :myname!~myname@2001:41d0:1:766f::1 PRIVMSG #esolangs :best game i ever played < 1622625194 262964 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :Mmmmm < 1622625222 798721 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Speaking of which: < 1622625224 28715 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :10:13 [libera] -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.libera.chat)- The #esolangs namespace is registered to the esolangs project < 1622625227 287487 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :10:13 [libera] -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.libera.chat)- Public contacts: int-e, fizzie < 1622625235 747367 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's just gone through. < 1622625246 188784 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN :#esolangs < 1622625271 968658 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I don't know how to *actually* manage cloaks, though, even though we now have that namespace.) < 1622625341 870925 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :cool! < 1622625380 881747 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Optional cloaks are available for members. These replace the hostname part with @about/yourcommunity/username, and can be requested on #libera-communities." < 1622625407 427494 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that doesn't seem to be the way :P < 1622625438 215909 :FireFly!firefly@user/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think you can just ask a friendly local staffer < 1622625467 212653 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would like an esolangs cloak < 1622625826 61246 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know some projects have some kind of a policy about cloaks; I don't know what ours should be. Maybe discuss on the wiki? I'll post an update on the talk page in a minute that it's now registered. < 1622625846 36879 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LiberaCloaks "To avoid overwhelming libera.chat staff, we are only issuing cloaks in batches." Yeah, sounds like it's probably just an ask-a-staffer thing; and also makes sense to collect them into a batch rather than bother the staff one-by-one. < 1622625860 164278 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not that I think our community is quite as populous, but still. < 1622625869 799145 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ftr I don't want a cloak < 1622625917 883867 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I like my hostname, and I don't want to give any of math, haskell, or esolangs any particular preference < 1622625928 572237 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know about myself, but I think my bots could do with one. Or at least fungot. If it's not "about/esolangs/...", I don't know what is. < 1622625928 773358 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: time to shove off! the name's bandeau. here to build the ocean palace! and if you wish! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we no can call that the chrono trigger. it is r66-y? cool? who knows what would become of my mystics? i must win! < 1622625985 800598 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot and hackeso make sense to me. though hackeso wants a short hostmask so it's a tradeoff < 1622625985 928234 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: it's time you jumped off this mortal coil... well? yes no < 1622626032 119597 :FireFly!firefly@user/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh in order to allow for as long message lines as possible? < 1622626035 268671 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the esolangs bot of course < 1622626037 292033 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :FireFly: yes < 1622626045 508852 :FireFly!firefly@user/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :heh < 1622626523 759625 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I guess the policy could be something like having a wiki account with known corresponding IRC nick? < 1622626547 867229 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, that's approximately what I'm writing up in the next window over to that initial comment. :) < 1622626579 661065 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :We shoiuld get ais523 over here. < 1622626601 760826 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :brctl: ignored > 1622626601 760875 PRIVMSG #esolangs :brctl: Ignore list: freenode/V freenode/shachaf libera/Sgeo libera/Soni libera/V libera/cd libera/int-e libera/shachaf < 1622626654 448887 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh he's registered. I temporarily forgot that he's adopted a ninja style for entering the channel in the past year or so... < 1622626685 556523 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :...so it's probably really just a matter of having logs :) < 1622626705 53164 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, I did in fact have a quick chat with him about this channel; he said he'll likely be continuing the thing of mostly reading via logs and then dropping by if there's anything particularly interesting. > 1622627256 263399 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Community portal14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83834&oldid=83499 5* 03Fizzie 5* (+2025) 10/* Libera.Chat community and cloaks */ new section < 1622627477 928938 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.180.220.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds > 1622627743 139471 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Community portal14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83835&oldid=83619 5* 03Fizzie 5* (+115) 10/* IRC */ Insert the word "official". < 1622628861 782379 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.180.220.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esolangs < 1622629187 684159 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN :#esolangs < 1622629239 957145 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: be careful, I think the cloak would be longer than the bots' current hostname. if you want to request a cloak for them, at least consider that. < 1622629283 852163 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, int-e pointed that out too, I see it in the losg < 1622629331 310740 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, it was brought up. I still think it's worth it (in terms of the length limit not being *usually* a problem), but it's a scow that you have to make such a tradeoff. < 1622629433 406243 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :" We shoiuld get ais523 over here." => he was here in the sense that he joined the channel on libera at least once; otherwise he generally logreads and joins only when needed < 1622629459 263664 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :it should not be a problem for bot -- he doesn't see own messages < 1622629511 685596 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: if you want an actually shorter hostname, you may be able to get one, because unaffiliated cloaks are now shorter\ < 1622629524 956435 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :they start with user/ instead of unaffiliated/ < 1622629532 689299 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder if there is a bot that makes daily RSS from IRC logs < 1622629548 163855 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`unidecode ais < 1622629549 203591 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​[U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+0069 LATIN SMALL LETTER I] [U+FEFF ZERO WIDTH NO-BREAK SPACE] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S] < 1622629566 126022 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, there's that. But these specific bots *are* so "about/esolangs", it'd be nice to keep it in. < 1622629586 427573 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(funny, xterm displays a box for that U+FEFF thing) < 1622629598 627040 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :"about/esolangs/bot/botname" is 19+length("botname") characters; anything I run off the wiki server would otherwise be "techne.zem.fi" (unless I want to play with the reverse DNS) which is only 13. So that's a net loss of 13, for the obvious 7-character bot names. < 1622629613 411613 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(overlayed on the i) < 1622629624 368535 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :do we know who runs the tunes.org logs and whether they could join the bot here? < 1622629642 759880 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :a backup set of logs might be nice < 1622629664 86887 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or if kspalaiologos wants to restart their logs, that could work too < 1622629702 287740 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: they're about esolangs, but I don't see why the irc hostmust has to say that, rather than saying that elsewhere < 1622629705 208367 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually website hosted logs can easily have RSS format < 1622629743 968024 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :for example, having 10 last days items (excluding current day that isn't yet ready) < 1622629749 785929 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean I can see some use of the hostmask for network services and IRCops for security reasons so that anyone can quickly verify that a message is from a real IRCop or service < 1622629817 871812 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but for just HackEso or esolangs or fungоt that's less important < 1622629834 646937 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :At least fungot's current host"name" of "2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a" (22 characters) is only moderately shorter than "about/esolangs/bot/fungot" (25). I haven't asked if my ISP would be interested in delegating the relevant ip6.arpa zone, but given that they're your typical end-user/consumer/residential ISP, I feel like probably not. I've only had two ISPs so far who've been willing to do that. < 1622629834 750207 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: but cyrus! are you leaving! < 1622629895 279968 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, fungоt doesn't run on the same server as esolangs and HackEso or at least a neighboring one? < 1622629915 300407 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No, I run it at home. Less mission-critical, y'see. < 1622629919 693755 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :makes sense < 1622629944 970491 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't currently have an always-on machine, but perhaps I should still make logs on my often-on home machine < 1622629984 166762 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not willing to run any evalbot, I decided that's a security problem that I'm not willing to tackle in the near future, but just making an IRC connection with logs can work < 1622630016 706988 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it may still be useful even if it's off like one day every two weeks and possibly shorter interruptions from irc server disconnects or network outages < 1622630048 580214 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also I don't want to abuse the donated resources esolangs.org has, our hosting provider's really sponsoring the wiki rather than "everything tangentially related to the wiki". < 1622630049 996709 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :only I don't have a fixed IP address, so I'd have to set up something to point there if I want to make the logs public < 1622630065 399941 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: oh! I didn't know it was donated < 1622630075 398611 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, nobody pays for it. < 1622630098 884093 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean, I imagine a single tiny VPS is really a rounding error for a proper cloud provider, but still. < 1622630182 947587 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, I just didn't know it was donated < 1622630223 838531 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is there like a banner thanking them on the esowiki main page or something? < 1622630226 232454 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't see one < 1622630232 195929 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's at the bottom. < 1622630240 463155 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The tiny little ":bytemark" one. < 1622630251 454433 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah I see < 1622630268 805655 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :And also a brief mention at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:About actually. < 1622630274 551791 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it also has the new Mediawiki icon rather than the old sunflower < 1622630292 756108 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :my "evalbot" costs 0$, it's within free GCP tier < 1622630316 150221 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh nice, the Bytemark banner leads to a 404 page < 1622630328 749572 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, looks like Bytemark removed those /r/... URLs, so our backlinks to their website are now 404s. < 1622630338 660790 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, I doubt we've been generating much traffic there either. < 1622630402 288358 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, it just, you know, makes an internet host provider unprofessional when they break their links < 1622630430 671763 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not 100% sure it ever worked. ;) < 1622630498 335441 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :reminds me some IBM technology that our bank used... forgot how it was called < 1622630553 958564 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :it was about superfast and reliable server mirroring < 1622630604 383859 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :their webpage sais it's super reliable and the link "read more" just leads to a page with server error < 1622630623 577427 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :Server unavailable IIRC < 1622630674 463818 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://web.archive.org/web/20180119185751/https://www.bytemark.co.uk/r/esolangs says it did work at some point < 1622630682 801064 :imode!~imode@user/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1622630749 433035 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Mhm. With a proper GA ?utm_source=... param too. I'd be interested in seeing the stats of that campaign. :) < 1622630846 464683 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :damn, can't find the link < 1622630945 610656 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :the technology kind of really worked but servers were failing once in few months and it needed a day to relaunch/sync it after a crash and so it was really possible that two could fail at the same time < 1622630983 653839 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :but we didn't buy the third server because they costed several mln $ < 1622631171 614971 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's funny how things there were at the same time ridiculously expensive and unreliable < 1622631204 504032 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially considering that if bank stops operating for several hours it loses government license < 1622631470 358714 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh I guess I found it: "MIMIX -- Availability protects your business from downtime and data loss. Data, applications and critical system information are replicated in real ." ... https://www.ibm.com/partnerworld/public/404-page-error?solution=11871 < 1622631509 489798 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean https://www.ibm.com/partnerworld/gsd/solutiondetails.do?solution=11871 -- you'll redirect > 1622631912 576806 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:IRC cloaks14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83836 5* 03Fizzie 5* (+2290) 10Actually, let's just create this one as a placeholder, it's not like it costs money. > 1622632131 283387 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Community portal14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83837&oldid=83834 5* 03Fizzie 5* (-13) 10/* Libera.Chat community and cloaks */ Fix link. < 1622632405 670273 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1622633638 656954 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genus_g_surface says: "A non-orientable surface of genus zero is the disc." That sounded interesting, but I'm so far from finding a proof or even a clear statement of how, that I'm beginning to doubt it's true. Anyone here know or can justify it? < 1622633686 247166 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :i don't know this math < 1622633763 160510 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :> Let M be a connected topological n-manifold. There are several possible definitions of what it means for M to be orientable. Some of these definitions require that M has extra structure, like being differentiable. Occasionally, n = 0 must be made into a special case. When more than one of these definitions applies to M, then M is orientable under one definition if and only if it is orientable under the others.[2][3] < 1622633765 15402 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : :1:85: error: parse error on input ‘of’ < 1622633990 668179 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1622634120 861542 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :> Theorem 3.2. A closed and connected surface is non-orientable if and only if it contains a M¨obius strip. < 1622634122 665651 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : :1:106: error: < 1622634122 754709 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets) < 1622634142 415891 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a bit weird to think how a disk with boundry contains a mobius strip < 1622634169 773156 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :i guess that if you travel "off" the disk you bounce back, flipped < 1622634211 359185 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the disk is equivalent to the 2d projective plane? < 1622634214 114306 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, that's what I have been thinking, this n=o disc feels like it must be a special case, because I can prettty much follow any higher n argument, which are easy enough to find. If a disc/disk is a special case, I would have thought someone would deal with explicitly and set out what definitions and conditions apply < 1622634242 717447 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/308804/homeomorphism-between-real-projective-plane-and-disc < 1622634275 984360 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that's what I though must apply, a disk must be in some sense homeomorphic to a mobius strip and the projective plane minus a point, but I can't see that < 1622634276 342321 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe it's easier to understand that RP^2 is non-orientable < 1622634278 669065 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN :#esolangs < 1622634293 901736 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :minus a point? < 1622634304 374914 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm < 1622634312 303350 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :X = D/~ where ~ identifies antipodal points < 1622634314 142203 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry! with a hole! < 1622634345 167676 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :mobius strip is homeomorphic to the projective plane with a hole < 1622634347 214227 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh < 1622634353 316534 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :X = D/~ where ~ identifies antipodal points *on the boundary of D* < 1622634363 808884 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :interesting < 1622634370 706066 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, this aligns with the theorem posted < 1622634375 314699 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :"contains a mobius strip" < 1622634390 89885 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :http://math.uchicago.edu/~may/REU2016/REUPapers/Zhang,Y.pdf 3.2 on pg 4 < 1622634412 930780 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :when these topologists are informally saying "a disk" I guess they mean something quite specific < 1622634429 875283 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :where the antipodal points of the boundary are identified? < 1622634447 105480 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can see why that is non-orientable < 1622634450 763878 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :intuitively < 1622634494 890286 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that detail is not stated on wikipedia < 1622634754 394807 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks, that paper looks interesting -- the se question has me confused with the different commentators talking about whether D is a ball of sphere, and the qn looks like it was edited at some point, but that's par for se < 1622634768 79996 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah I think the original question was mistitled < 1622634770 539835 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :so they fixed that < 1622634845 470127 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thanks for seeing the antipodal points thing, I was stuck in an unproductive search spiral, that looks like a detail that will help make some sense of what they meant < 1622634969 254703 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A mobius strip is described in various places as the most simple non-orientable surface -- a standard disk sounds more simple than that, so it didn't make sense that it was non-orientable unless there was something else going on < 1622635555 290554 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :From the Zhang paper: "RP² is in essence a disk with boundary sewed diametrically." < 1622635585 491230 :imode!~imode@user/imode JOIN :#esolangs > 1622635619 531053 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83838&oldid=83831 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+73) 10Categories < 1622636278 481468 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That se accepted answer does make sense now, and they are talking about a disk with a very specific boundary, which they are clear about, and that is homeomorphic to RP², and also non-orientable. < 1622636352 4511 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :river: thanks! That was causing me undue mental anguish, all from taking wikipedia a bit too seriously. < 1622636528 915895 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :ideally someone should fix this on wikipedia < 1622636680 385207 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was just trying to confirm what the correction should be "A non-orientable surface of genus zero is the projective plane." seems like the correct verison > 1622636772 927633 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AEWNN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83839&oldid=83823 5* 03ResU 5* (+102) 10 < 1622636967 501727 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No, that's not right, RP² is genus 1 > 1622637047 549415 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AEWNN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83840&oldid=83839 5* 03ResU 5* (+23) 10 < 1622637462 184608 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1622637627 689515 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN :#esolangs > 1622637759 711772 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Otesunki 5* 10New user account > 1622637944 329580 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83841&oldid=83827 5* 03Otesunki 5* (+202) 10 > 1622637959 465995 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NDBall14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83842&oldid=83818 5* 03Otesunki 5* (+2) 10The demonstration for vector lists is actually kinda wonk and incorrect < 1622638033 870592 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in < 1622638049 759726 :Noisytoot!noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN :#esolangs > 1622638100 660379 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AEWNN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83843&oldid=83840 5* 03ResU 5* (-29) 10/* Hello World */ < 1622638779 451000 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm going to call it here: there is no "non-orientable surface of genus zero" -- non-orientable surfaces must contain a mobius strip (genus 1) , can't find a reference, but surely a lower genus surface can't contain a higher one (otherwise it would be classified with the higher n) < 1622638933 137635 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This started off as an esolang related investigation I swear -- looking into describing a fungeoid playfield that is a n-holed torus rather than just a torus like Befunge and RASEL > 1622639164 526055 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83844&oldid=82672 5* 03ResU 5* (+90) 10 > 1622639275 184835 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83845&oldid=83844 5* 03ResU 5* (+14) 10/* AEWNN */ < 1622640033 848867 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 QUIT :Quit: Connection closed > 1622640143 680979 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Batata14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83846&oldid=83721 5* 03Batata 5* (+55) 10 > 1622640159 307603 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Batata14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83847&oldid=83846 5* 03Batata 5* (+20) 10 > 1622640168 958913 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Batata14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83848&oldid=83847 5* 03Batata 5* (+1) 10 < 1622640459 697539 :Guest28!~Guest28@121.73.84.248 JOIN :#esolangs < 1622640633 107497 :Guest28!~Guest28@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Just confirming the Libera official browser client is Kiwi chat. It is. Hope this hasn't messed up my existing kc stored settings. < 1622640649 549029 :Guest28!~Guest28@121.73.84.248 QUIT :Client Quit < 1622640686 22803 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 JOIN :#esolangs < 1622640764 411649 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Guest28: the official browser client is https://web.libera.chat/ . I think you have to set your settings again, because it's a separate instance from the one in https://kiwiirc.com/ . < 1622640789 314925 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I imagine that was in fact the desired outcome here? < 1622640808 587851 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(As in, not affecting the settings of the non-branded Kiwi.) < 1622640825 903667 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :If it's client-side settings, I rather imagine the web's origin-based security model is going to enforce that anyway. < 1622640826 170629 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, you could still use the one at https://kiwiirc.com/ since it handles connections to multiple networks together < 1622640887 926302 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: yes, that was me. non branded kiwi settings are fine < 1622640904 286988 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The IP was a bit of a giveaway. < 1622640920 797843 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh yeah, that's annoying. < 1622640934 107194 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :just saw an announcement on http://subversion.apache.org/ that their official irc presence (I don't think they are actually too much present there) is on libera now < 1622640940 148 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Especially since it lined up, what with length "salpynx" == length "Guest28" and consecutive quit/join.) < 1622640952 775260 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :does the cloak thing help with that? Not that I'm that worries (it's too late anyway) < 1622640965 355253 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nice, this one is official for esolangs now < 1622640991 940941 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Android just made no channel or network official, by removing all mention of IRC from the support page. < 1622641017 574871 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(freenode's #android-dev used to be mentioned there, though really it didn't have any *other* sort of official status except for the mention.) < 1622641019 544188 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was wondering is there any kind of semi-reasonable paranoia justified for using the kiwiiirc given all the freenet concerns about data. < 1622641050 580026 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :freenode, it;s late, I need to stop and get some sleep soon < 1622641145 285022 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am using https://kiwiirc.com/ , with the multinetwork settings etc > 1622641574 49856 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AEWNN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83849&oldid=83843 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-10) 10Header level < 1622641797 528601 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :regarding cloaks < 1622641798 733302 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :> once you're a group contact there's a channel you can get invited to and you request in there < 1622641800 126475 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : :1:86: error: parse error on input ‘in’ < 1622642090 278109 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 QUIT :Quit: Connection closed < 1622642728 882393 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, I got the impression that's the -community channel that got already mentioned. But I'll look into that once there's some initial list of cloaks people want. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_portal#Libera.Chat_community_and_cloaks / https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:IRC_cloaks for those who filter away the recent changes feed. > 1622644211 136117 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07STACKOMP14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83850 5* 03MartinAsdf 5* (+15366) 10Created page with "Example STACKOMP program: (logo.sk) v>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>v > rstack.....v >.p..v > p >OO d v >Smpv v ^ S p<<<<< A..." > 1622644299 370422 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:MartinAsdf14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83851&oldid=72772 5* 03MartinAsdf 5* (+24) 10added stackomp > 1622644788 898823 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:MartinAsdf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83852&oldid=83851 5* 03MartinAsdf 5* (+20) 10 < 1622644903 524973 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN :#esolangs < 1622645242 580249 :imode!~imode@user/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds > 1622645473 685360 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SIMPLE14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83853&oldid=65700 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+259) 10Acronym < 1622647822 866360 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed > 1622648380 716016 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83854&oldid=83838 5* 03Goglesq 5* (+47) 10/* Returning data */ > 1622648550 188736 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83855&oldid=83854 5* 03Goglesq 5* (+0) 10/* Variables */ > 1622648579 477906 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83856&oldid=83855 5* 03Goglesq 5* (-151) 10 > 1622648638 87727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83857&oldid=83856 5* 03Goglesq 5* (+3) 10/* Variables */ < 1622649541 780458 :moon!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony NICK :hd < 1622649545 524970 :hd!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony NICK :cd > 1622653055 646124 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tech Support Scam14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83858 5* 03CatCatDeluxe 5* (+3166) 10Created page with "Tech Support Scam is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:CatCatDeluxe]] where it sounds vaguely like you are on a phone call with a tech support scammer. Punct..." > 1622653139 645121 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:CatCatDeluxe14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83859&oldid=83468 5* 03CatCatDeluxe 5* (+28) 10 < 1622653258 744292 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN :#esolangs < 1622654443 565247 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1622654573 740907 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN :#esolangs < 1622655503 580759 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… > 1622655962 784517 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AEWNN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83860&oldid=83849 5* 03ResU 5* (+278) 10 > 1622656101 917125 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AEWNN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83861&oldid=83860 5* 03ResU 5* (+2) 10/* Cat program */ < 1622656119 2557 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN :#esolangs < 1622656439 487268 :imode!~imode@user/imode JOIN :#esolangs > 1622656597 858505 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AEWNN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83862&oldid=83861 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-14) 10/* Cat program */ Use pre tag > 1622656671 801043 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AEWNN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83863&oldid=83862 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-3) 10/* Cat program */ /* Quine */ Isn't this really a quine? < 1622657215 1901 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I want to make nothing up my sleeve number by sufficiently old texts, such as "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog". What other possibilities might there be? < 1622657727 275032 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Decimals extracted from famous constants (pi, e) are kind of the conventional ones, aren't they? < 1622657781 782789 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :i dont like nothing up my sleeve numbers < 1622657793 315680 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you want to specifically make it from well-known pieces of text... hmm, the ones that come to mind first are kind of political or religious, which you might want to avoid for obvious reasons. < 1622658022 984273 :cd!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :Alice in Wonderland? < 1622658029 257507 :cd!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :and other classics? < 1622658110 302672 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :How about: "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul." < 1622658182 879263 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cd: not Alice I think, it doesn't have one canonical edition that you can get the text from I think < 1622658184 360547 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you need a nothing-up-your-sleeve number for an Esolang article, something about the matrix of solidity would also work. < 1622658189 274288 :dutch!~DutchIngr@user/dutch JOIN :#esolangs < 1622658195 657905 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the same is the problem with Shakespeare or Vergilius probably < 1622658281 95594 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :mathematical constants are probably better in that it's less likely that someone a few decades from now will suddenly decide that your now completely innocious text is very offensive to them and all references to it should be purged from cryptographic protocols < 1622658408 928658 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it's not easy to find anything old enough and widely distributed while still having one canonical version, unless it's something sacred like the Torah < 1622658494 165362 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Another nothing-up-your-sleeve source might be something that's a matter of the public record, like past Dow Jones Industrial Average values used for geohashing. < 1622658967 911561 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :The important thing is that people shouldn't have a lot of flexibility in these things. < 1622658980 283093 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :See https://bada55.cr.yp.to/ < 1622659196 57497 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :how about the dates of eclipses < 1622659242 910422 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :keegan: the problem is that for anything involving cryptography, you need to know an exact value, not an approximate real, and it's not clear that exact numerical values of eclipses are canonical < 1622659265 667956 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or that you can always round them that way and don't get eclipses that happen close to where your rounding would flip a bit < 1622659286 410936 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also they're sort of periodical which might be bad < 1622659313 69939 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I still the use of like fractional parts of square roots of the first primes for crypto protocols < 1622659365 57611 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1622660158 109671 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN :#esolangs < 1622660483 810421 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.180.220.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1622661126 121514 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1622661831 601272 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN :#esolangs < 1622662460 671661 :dutch!~DutchIngr@user/dutch QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 3.1 < 1622662652 131990 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1622662678 87145 :dutch!~DutchIngr@user/dutch JOIN :#esolangs > 1622663098 866321 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pxem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83864&oldid=77847 5* 03Jedgrei 5* (-30) 10 > 1622663356 994988 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pxem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83865&oldid=83864 5* 03Jedgrei 5* (-169) 10 < 1622663785 314952 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN :#esolangs < 1622664200 122739 :oren!~oren@ec2-34-239-129-109.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the old testament can be used as a number and has an established text-to-numer conversion < 1622664296 171090 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :And of course doesn't fall into the "kind of political or religious" category at all. < 1622664389 447683 :oren!~oren@ec2-34-239-129-109.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm... I guess Greek also has established sufficiently-old numerical values for letters, so you could use e.g. the iliad < 1622664403 181654 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1622664488 964461 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :tfw your cryptographic algorithm accidentally generates the true name of god < 1622664627 621014 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oren: yes, and the greek vs hebrew numbers are mostly the same for corresponding letters too < 1622664627 799252 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is that an Unsong reference or something? < 1622664970 84663 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :is there any French on this channel? < 1622665146 74280 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :n-holed torus funge field sounds crazy ..D < 1622665674 80008 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN :#esolangs < 1622665820 518507 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: no it's vaguely a reference to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi_(film) < 1622665956 748333 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hey #esoteric community. someone recommended me the "uMatrix" plugin for Firefox browser. apparently this is similar in purpose to the NoScript plugin which I'm already using, in that it lets me configure with whatlists what scripts or other fancy webshit content webpages are allowed to load. do you have any experience with this "uMatrix" plugin, and can tell me about it, especially that one non-obvious < 1622665962 755137 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hint that will save me days of suffering if I know it in advance? < 1622666321 589093 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1622666532 212562 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/perlbot QUIT :Changing host < 1622666532 212607 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN :#esolangs < 1622666810 236238 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :looks good so far. there'll be some setup period, but that's normal for this kind of thing. < 1622666863 29311 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have not had experience with it. Does it allow scripts and stuff to be substituted, or only blocked? What about headers? (I do have an extension to deal with headers, but making it a core part of the program dealing with sending requests and retrieving responses might be better; it can extend to any protocol and allow more to be added too.) < 1622666905 818745 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :uBlock Origin FTW < 1622667002 17166 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN :#esolangs < 1622667053 6326 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it seems it only lets you allow or block stuff, not substituted, except possibly for the Referer, but how it differs from noscript seems to be that you can allow/block based on the pair of the domain of the main webpage and the domain of the requested resource, rather than only based on the requested resource like noscript does. which means I can tell it to forbid the giantitp.com forum to block loading < 1622667059 61233 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :any off-site images, because it's a stupid forum that lets any poster embed externally hosted images to their posts. and then I can override that for images loaded from particular domains. < 1622667123 655180 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and on the forum, those images will still be in the document tree and show up an empty rectangle, so I can load any one image by clicking on "view image", which makes that the main webpage, and images are allowed in general for most webpages in the default config < 1622667150 645583 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: as for headers, it can specifically control cookies, and has something about Referer, I don't know about other headers < 1622667228 82956 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: the cookies are allowed or blocked based on combination of the domain of main website loaded on the tab and the domain of the nested request where the cookies would be sent < 1622667284 684903 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I like it so far, but I'll of course I may encounter problems weeks into browsing with it when visiting some particular website < 1622667424 237822 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Adding the user rules of headers into the core system can also define a uniform interface for setting language, do-not-track, cookies, etc. < 1622667478 490510 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are still a few things for which I'd like a plugin (or an option in this plugin). namely firefox has a global option where it can forbid webpages to set font faces except to the four user-controllable ones (default, serif, sans-serif, monospaced), which is nice and I use it (it doesn't *quite* work as it should, if my choice of font lacks characters it will use whatever the webpage chose as a < 1622667482 762986 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :For setting cookies you might also want cookies to be allowed or blocked based on their name and/or value as well, and possibly on path, not only by the domain. You might also want to override the expiry of cookies, or possibly also the values of cookies. < 1622667484 504719 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fallback font, but this is rarely relevant), but I'd like to be able to whitelist font faces per domain too < 1622667502 572170 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :"giantitp.com forum" sounds like giant tit < 1622667511 305275 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would like to be able to whitelist font faces per MIME type of the document that uses the fonts. < 1622667517 716183 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I'd like something like that for line-spacing too rather than font-face. a lot of webpages could be made better if the browser just ignored line-spacing declared in CSS everywhere. < 1622667588 515669 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, I also; it is one of the things that my idea of "meta-CSS" would allow to do. < 1622667613 206043 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I know I can override the individual CSS rules, and I sometimes do that, but it would be easier to just ignore the website's idea about the font-face or line-spacing (or whatever those are actually called) property no matter how it's set < 1622667641 212557 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'll visit some of my more frequently visited websites so I can set up settings for them < 1622667759 809585 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Meta-CSS would allow to change the definition of CSS properties, including conditionally based on the selectors and other properties.) > 1622667800 705340 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nevermind14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83866 5* 03OfficialCraftCGame 5* (+1393) 10Created page with "'''Nevermind''' is a simplistic programming language made by [[User:OfficialCraftCGame|CraftCGame]] in 2021. It uses commas ('','') to separate arguments. There is no escape c..." < 1622667895 577238 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :one difficulty is that, just like noscript, if a webpage immediately redirects to another domain (usually via javascript but the principle is the same if it's a HTTP redirect), it's not easy to see what was allowed/blocked in the page that did the redirect, even though that's where you would have to change the permissions < 1622667897 839628 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Another of my idea is a nwe !priority CSS command that can only be specified by the end user (not by documents), which is another way to glboally override CSS even if !important is specified; you have to write !priority(0) or !priority(255) or whatever to set it. > 1622667924 340299 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83867&oldid=83828 5* 03OfficialCraftCGame 5* (+16) 10Added language "Nevermind" into the list < 1622667950 710202 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Yes, I know of that, and a solution (when it is a HTTP redirect) could be to record the chain of redirects and other requests so that they can be viewed later. < 1622667995 144723 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Firefox will record the requests but only if the appropriate web developer window is open.) < 1622668017 776367 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: that's not really enough, !important already does most of what you want in that !important in user styles are higher priority than !important in page styles, > 1622668036 98094 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nevermind14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83868&oldid=83866 5* 03OfficialCraftCGame 5* (-8) 10Changed the caption text in the table at the "Functions" section < 1622668149 882011 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm wait. specificity of css selectors have a total order, right? is there a way to write a selector that fakes to be more specific than almost any other selector, including id selectors, but still can match whatever I want, including all elements if I choose so? if that's possible with css, I could use that to override font-face or line-spacing on a whole webpage < 1622668155 46064 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: That is true, although there is still the priority by how specific the selector is. Also, in some cases you might want to be lower priority than page styles instead. < 1622668169 781347 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, except I'm not sure if it could override the style attribute of the element too < 1622668230 974511 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :That too > 1622668255 969455 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nevermind14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83869&oldid=83868 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+70) 10/* Truth Machine */ Cats < 1622668602 555512 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :use Stylebot extension to override styles < 1622668694 690271 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what I'd also like is to link multiple website domains together so they're controlled by the same rules < 1622669317 999544 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :You might want to match more of the URL than just the domain, too. < 1622669512 642149 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: yes, there are some rare cases like taht < 1622669515 488604 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1622669526 75100 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do remember a few < 1622669544 215320 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a02:8106:215:3300:e7ad:5ab7:4ea0:e177 JOIN :#esolangs < 1622669849 523229 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN :#esolangs < 1622669920 869048 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, I wonder if it's worth it to enable the `chghost` capability for the logger bot, and format those messages appropriately. Guess the question is, is the simulated "Changing hostname" QUIT-and-JOIN the canonical truth or not. < 1622670449 320125 :dutch!~DutchIngr@user/dutch PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: (didn't read entire backlog) uMatrix is great, but unfortunately gorhill has stopped development. See https://github.com/gorhill/uMatrix < 1622670535 197949 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1622670605 669105 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :dutch: thanks < 1622670806 766734 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1622671008 44152 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river JOIN :#esolangs < 1622671131 942009 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.reddit.com/r/uBlockOrigin/comments/i240ds/request_for_a_stable_umatrix_release_for_cname/g048wyk/ < 1622671446 510931 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net JOIN :#esolangs < 1622671454 872386 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :`unidecode ∇ < 1622671456 227711 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​[U+2207 NABLA] < 1622671467 950062 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :`unidecode ∆ < 1622671468 930910 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​[U+2206 INCREMENT] < 1622671470 560055 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm < 1622671530 638861 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :a nable is conceptually an inverted delta, not an inverted increment < 1622671537 900550 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :so why isn't there a decrement operator in Unicode? < 1622671693 332551 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I mostly follow the channel by logreading rather than idling < 1622671729 354965 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Yes, I should've known as I pointed out a bit later. < 1622671735 940532 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I find it funny that you are mostly logreading but join to use HackEso's unidecode command of all things < 1622671793 150799 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I understand you only did it to make a point to us < 1622671868 36311 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :the other way round, actually, I was using it to *discover* that point < 1622671880 228348 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :after going through two character map applications and discovering them to both be useless < 1622671886 466248 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :then I started complaining, once I learned what the reality was < 1622671901 107438 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs : do we know who runs the tunes.org logs and whether they could join the bot here? ← I believe that their tunes username is part of the URL < 1622671957 296400 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"INCREMENT" just sounds wrong, everyone calls it a delta. < 1622671959 920333 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think those two triangles are a bit weird, anyway. Because ∆ is also ∇². So they're kind of related. < 1622671969 765833 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: but a delta is a different codepoint entirely < 1622671971 866338 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Language is weird. < 1622671986 245053 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: *a* delta, distinct from the letter delta < 1622671988 460177 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :`unidecode Δ < 1622671989 382073 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​[U+0394 GREEK CAPITAL LETTER DELTA] < 1622671999 47824 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm < 1622672003 36113 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also distinct from the river thing < 1622672005 336242 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think of a nabla as being an upside-down Greek delta < 1622672007 150695 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :but maybe it isn't? < 1622672043 566669 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Just to add to the confusion, ∇ is also called "del". < 1622672071 710090 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, the question is, I have an esolang which could plausibly use ∆ as one of the spellings of the increment operator < 1622672083 714009 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :distinguishing between ∆ and Δ may be the real mistake here < 1622672086 968588 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :should it have a corresponding spellng for the decrement operator? and if so, should it be a nabla? < 1622672101 418026 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Unicode is weird in its attempt to capture some semantics in code points. < 1622672116 616391 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is remarkably difficult to name an increment operator unambiguously < 1622672119 776307 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think *if* you're going to use a pair, ∇∆ is that pair, and don't get delta-the-letter involved. < 1622672127 50359 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I may have to resort to "+=1" and "increment" < 1622672173 201391 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :gucharmap's notes say "U+2207 NABLA = backward difference; gradient, del * used for Laplacian operator (written with superscript 2)" and "U+2206 INCREMENT = Laplace operator; forward difference; symmetric difference (in set theory) * other symbols may also be used for symmetric difference". < 1622672180 134828 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've always wondered where those extra notes are from. < 1622672181 119008 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN :#esolangs < 1622672216 514940 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I actually have a defined policy about these things, and if it also means "symmetric difference" (which is also a real function) it gets disallowed < 1622672234 833397 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(As in, are the notes also part of the Unicode standard / code charts or not.) < 1622672247 954332 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :that makes things much easier < 1622672263 898421 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs : also distinct from the river thing < 1622672264 311917 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Apparently they are, judging from https://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2200.pdf < 1622672267 1394 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :what thing? < 1622672277 495738 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :1. (1) delta -- (a low triangular area of alluvial deposits where a river divides before entering a larger body of water; "the Mississippi River delta"; "the Nile delta") < 1622672282 409318 :river!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :Aha lol < 1622672291 158367 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, thank you for telling me what gucharmap is called, now I have an actually viable character map program :-) < 1622672293 309797 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it's still in the repos) < 1622672311 346312 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, ∆ and Δ even look subtly different in the `fixed` font. < 1622672340 452690 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`unidecode △▽ < 1622672341 456659 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​[U+25B3 WHITE UP-POINTING TRIANGLE] [U+25BD WHITE DOWN-POINTING TRIANGLE] < 1622672344 507225 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :they look subtly different in my font too, but it's very subtle < 1622672350 972507 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(That seems a bit unnecessary.) < 1622672351 416178 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :the second one is a pixel taller, I think < 1622672353 66301 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I thought the Delta as used for ∇² was just a greek Delta used in this meaning. I don't really understand why there's a separate ∆ character for it, and probably wouldn't use it. but apparently I do have a glyph for the ∆ character in my font, which is odd because it still has too few of these math glyphs, I should add some more. < 1622672365 118182 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :You could go with the WHITE UP-POINTING TRIANGLE and the WHITE DOWN-POINTING TRIANGLE, those don't seem to have any semantic baggage. < 1622672388 32885 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, one of my aims is for the language to be fast to program in and easy to read < 1622672404 993690 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I support a lot of possible names for the builtins, then normalize them into something that looks better < 1622672407 220502 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. * becoming × < 1622672427 814077 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: In fixed it's not a pixel taller but the sloped lines are moved ...1/3 pixel to the sides each. < 1622672431 318503 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it seems like increment/decrement don't have any more readable and unambiguous way to write them than "increment" and "decrement" < 1622672466 240502 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`unidecode Δ∆△🛆🜂 < 1622672466 783791 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :"+=1", "-=1" are also clear, but you have issues like "++" meaning append in some languages, or "--" being a comment marker < 1622672467 960118 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​[U+0394 GREEK CAPITAL LETTER DELTA] [U+2206 INCREMENT] [U+25B3 WHITE UP-POINTING TRIANGLE] [U+1F6C6 TRIANGLE WITH ROUNDED CORNERS] [U+1F702 ALCHEMICAL SYMBOL FOR FIRE] < 1622672473 15602 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :and "+1" and "-1" look like integers < 1622672500 130070 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe I should just go for "inc" and "dec", although even "dec" looks like "decimal" < 1622672519 937491 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/nabla.png < 1622672542 439768 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :All those five look pretty alike in my browser: https://zem.fi/tmp/tri.png < 1622672568 236676 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, they're obviously all different, but all triangles in a similar orientation < 1622672570 120111 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(no nabla there, it's named from the final line) < 1622672580 402174 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://i.imgur.com/Gh3jd4K.png < 1622672635 652588 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: "+=1" and "-=1" look good to me, people are already used to it because that's how you write in-place increment in python and some other languages < 1622672664 908872 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :though I'd usually write " += 1" but the spaces clearly have no semantic value there < 1622672743 967256 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, interesting. When I use `scrot` to take a screenshot, it renders pixel-perfect in a "dumb" image viewer (say, sxiv), but it's very messily scaled when the same file is opened in a browser, even when the zoom level is set to 100%. < 1622672749 206921 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm guessing maybe scrot writes the display DPI into the PNG metadata somewhere, and then the browser tries to "correct" it for the physical size, and they disagree about that. < 1622672779 186530 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1622672784 89931 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: the spacing is important in this language, it tokenizes on spaces < 1622672796 135140 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it's semi-important for a user to know where the token boundaries are < 1622672807 37214 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, but here it's between tokens < 1622672816 581963 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :spaces inside tokens are important of course, that happens in many languages < 1622672820 969376 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, increment is a single token in this language, even if it's two in Python < 1622672823 53360 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Is there a `pdfinfo` equivalent for PNG files?) < 1622672868 994216 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: `less` works for basic info, as does `file` < 1622672890 317583 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently there's a pnginfo in the Ubuntu repositories < 1622672892 750822 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :imagemagick's `identify` command says "PNG 158x41 158x41+0+0 8-bit sRGB 1389B 0.000u 0:00.000". < 1622672916 42013 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :01-- < 1622672930 679127 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, is sRGB there a color space or specification of which color channels exist or both? < 1622672954 22380 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: maybe exiftool? I don't know what pdfinfo does. or ImageMagick's identify with specific parameters such as -verbose to print everything. < 1622672959 918085 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: is there something specific you want to extract? < 1622673004 532019 :cd!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1622673017 558623 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Whether there's something encoded about the physical size / resolution. But the `pnginfo` tool from the `pngtools` package says "Resolution: 0, 0 (unit unknown)". < 1622673018 252941 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid QUIT :Quit: iovoid has quit! < 1622673018 339044 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator QUIT :Quit: Blame iczero something happened < 1622673027 269868 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :So I'm not sure why Chrome would display it scaled. < 1622673041 947669 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe because the resolution info is invalid? < 1622673043 279079 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you want to see everything, I recommend (identify -verbose "$filename"; exiftool -G2 "$filename";) to see everything, < 1622673056 288653 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :which file are you talking about? < 1622673058 221333 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :then once you find out what you want, there's a way to restrict either of those tools to print only that one thing < 1622673059 880584 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess maybe it's going "hmm, this image has no specified resolution, I'm going to guess 72 dpi" and then "hmm, this resolution doesn't match the screen DPI, I must scale it to present it in the right physical size". < 1622673090 69006 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, https://zem.fi/tmp/tri2.png in this case. < 1622673114 578077 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, both my Chromium and my Firefox sem to handle it correctly < 1622673144 669311 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs : pixelWidth: 158 pixelHeight: 41 typeIdentifier: public.png format: png formatOptions: default dpiWidth: 72.000 dpiHeight: 72.000 samplesPerPixel: 3 bitsPerSample: 8 hasAlpha: no space: RGB < 1622673145 188952 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe it's a new Chrome thing. I don't think I've seen it before at home, but my work Chrome has been persistently doing something weird around those lines. < 1622673190 808560 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Thanks for `identify -verbose`. I tried `-h` and `--help`, and when neither provided useful output, stopped guessing. < 1622673207 753842 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Seems like I should've gone with `-help`. < 1622673212 908894 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :sometimes programs give useful information if you run them with no args at all < 1622673215 419311 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :But single-dash long options just feel a little weird. < 1622673227 103107 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :...oh, that would have worked too. < 1622673235 551245 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :and there will often (but not always) be a man page, too < 1622673250 651322 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: also in general for media files, you can also try (ffprobe -of flat -show_format -show_streams "$file";) but for a png file it's unlikely to tell anything that identify and exiftool doesn't show. < 1622673263 202669 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think my usual convention for usage information is "provide a man page, give usage information on --help or if there's an invalid argument, also give usage information if run with no arguments and that doesn't otherwise make sense for the program" < 1622673299 810275 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: (identify;) without arguments works for the help, but you may have to look at HTML manuals too and even then you won't easily find all info about ImageMagick < 1622673333 877817 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, i initially interpreted "HTML manuals" as manuals about HTML, rather than manuals formatted using HTML < 1622673347 143048 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: wait, I forgot an important one < 1622673360 14134 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :English can be so ambiguous sometimes, that's one of the reasons to create esolangs < 1622673386 638170 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :width: 158 height: 41 bands: 3 format: uchar coding: none interpretation: srgb xoffset: 0 yoffset: 0 xres: 2.83465 yres: 2.83465 < 1622673392 612462 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: there was a specific tool for pngs that you can use to redo the compression or losslessly crop at block boundaries without redoing the fourier transform and quantization < 1622673395 875788 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :let me find it < 1622673402 718173 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Eyeballing the sizes (between sxiv and Chrome), I don't think it's quite "assume 72 dpi, scale to adjust to correct physical size given the 104 dpi screen density" level weird. But it's doing *something* odd. < 1622673402 807122 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that same library had an info tool < 1622673419 405999 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://zem.fi/tmp/tri3.png shows both side-by-side (sxiv left, Chrome right). < 1622673455 6913 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The left side should have no antialiasing/scaling going on.) < 1622673470 924249 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: pngtools debian package, (pnginfo "*.png";) < 1622673485 520240 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator JOIN :#esolangs < 1622673489 83125 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :the above outputs were from sips and vips < 1622673509 994275 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably also won't tell you anything that exiftool doesn't, but the pngtools package is worth knowing in general < 1622673540 293488 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: why do you use "(…;)" to quote shell commands on IRC? < 1622673548 205855 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: no, I usually omit the semicolon < 1622673554 826346 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think real shells need the semicolon < 1622673559 123751 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I do use parenthesis to quote shell commands often, even on irc < 1622673580 276011 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :parenthesis are nice because they work this way in both shell and cmd, so I can quote either kind of command with them < 1622673584 855397 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, I see > 1622673585 924971 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Turing Machine But Way Worse14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83870&oldid=79860 5* 03MilkyWay90 5* (+199) 10 < 1622673598 453780 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :although in sh-alikes it's more than just a quote, it runs the command in a new subshell < 1622673602 560824 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and shell commands often have other kinds of quotes or weird characters in them < 1622673622 473011 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes < 1622673625 309196 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, you have to put a function header before them like f() if you want to quote the contents as a shell command < 1622673633 668097 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've taken to using «» for quoting code (including shell commands) < 1622673642 719787 :ais523!~ais523@82-132-213-170.dab.02.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :although even that doesn't work for some languages, like Perl 6 and Jelly < 1622673693 767984 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that might work, but the problem with them is that there are both french-style «..» quotes and german-style »..« quotes which can make any use confusing < 1622673715 379283 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and yes, the french-style would technically be « .. » because they put spaces inside < 1622673717 189525 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid JOIN :#esolangs < 1622673731 997060 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :»..« looks like a confusion sign < 1622673734 445436 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :which makes it even harder to tell if it's a starting or ending quote character, there's a space on both sides) < 1622673791 281046 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's probably no nice way to quote any programming language, but you can often find a natural style for any particular language < 1622673807 917674 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Weird. It's just doing the wrong thing throughout. Even in the devtools inspector thing, if I look at a preview of the response, it does the bad scaling. (Okay, stands to reason it'd use the same code to render images. But still.) < 1622673827 876248 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Chromium does the same.) < 1622673841 854171 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Firefox doesn't.) < 1622673844 902158 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: you could try to extract the image with some other tool and reencode it < 1622673855 956820 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or is this something you want to debug to fix? < 1622673895 802512 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :when I need to do a screenshot with details I drag the window to retina display < 1622673897 524417 :cd!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN :#esolangs < 1622673908 72756 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :if I do screenshot on a usual one it's blurred < 1622673920 313745 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean, it has lower resolution < 1622673924 431413 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, preferably I'd like it fixed. But I'm not sure how much effort I want to dedicate to it. < 1622674188 926556 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Looking at an entirely different image that does have a set resolution (a pretty arbitrary one, 38.98x38.58 PixelsPerCentimeter), it's being scaled too. So maybe it *is* just assuming a resolution for the first PNG (just not 72; maybe it's been upgraded to default to 96 or something) and then trying to present it with the "physical" size. But I'd really rather it just render the pixels at 1:1 size. < 1622674241 301429 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I think Gimp has an option to do either for its zoom levels < 1622674261 846988 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: is this a standalone PNG in the tab, or inside a HTML? < 1622674287 533045 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :A standalone PNG in a tab. But it does the same if I just do a minimal HTML wrapper, . > 1622674306 537728 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:OfficialCraftCGame14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83871&oldid=83814 5* 03OfficialCraftCGame 5* (+14) 10 < 1622674351 470198 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok. I imagine the two can differ. < 1622674364 713044 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, could < 1622674369 895224 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :If I slap a style="image-rendering: pixelated;" on it, it still maintains the scaling, just does the nearest-neighbor thing. < 1622674460 505121 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :because HTML has its own odd rules about images that are partly inherited from multiple decade long tradition of netscape/mozilla/firefox emulating msie, then chrome or opera or safari emulating mozilla, then edge emulating everything else again etc < 1622674549 367969 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then a growing set of extensions, including this new one that lets you give multiple image sources of which the browser chooses one depending on what resolution the image will be displayed in which can depend on whether you're using a high resolution monitor that has two pixels for every traditional pixel measured in a webpage, which is a nice extension but its syntax is seriously messed up in a way < 1622674555 535459 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you think people would have learned not to do anymore when adding features to HTML < 1622674659 276420 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Even if I render it as the page background with style="background-image: url('tri3.png');", it's still scaled. And not in Firefox. Odd. < 1622674835 411102 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :And the exact same thing happens to something like https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Png_pixel_cube.png -- the image as viewed in Firefox is rendered "naturally", but the one in Chrome is scaled by... 69/64. < 1622674853 575488 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-223.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: make sure this isn't just caused by some unusual setting or plugin that you set in those browsers < 1622674911 748063 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :If it is, I don't know what setting it could be. The Chromium one definitely should be pretty vanilla. < 1622674921 891248 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also some servers will try to force you to download the picture instead of displaying it, although I can usually force it to display it in the browser by entering a data: URI < 1622674931 539400 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :My "desktop environment", on the other hand, might be more uncommon, though. < 1622674950 486718 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 JOIN :#esolangs < 1622674970 617241 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :What desktop environment is that? < 1622675073 97306 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, it's no specific one. It's just Xmonad as a window manager, and some bits and pieces of GTK+ thing. < 1622675076 979112 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Also, I don't have the problem with wrong scaling on the browser) < 1622675090 26708 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :what do you mean scaled by 69/64? distorted the aspect ratio? < 1622675115 535755 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No, just uniformly scaled. < 1622675126 467573 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The image itself is 64x64 pixels, but it's rendered as 69x69. < 1622675149 387230 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah < 1622675217 207381 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :renders as 64 and 128 for me < 1622675233 705312 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I did a chrome://flags + "reset all" just to be sure, so it shouldn't be a manually enabled weird setting either. < 1622675261 262796 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :make sure to do ctrl +/- until it says 100% < 1622675283 475802 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ctrl-0 < 1622675285 445837 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :please < 1622675289 459735 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :no < 1622675304 749309 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ctrl-0 resets to your settings default that can be different < 1622675316 333441 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's been 100% the whole time. < 1622675338 669790 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I use a program I wrote by myself to take screenshots. (They don't have as many options as scrot, because other programs can be used for many of the things. However, one option that perhaps should be added is the option to control if the mouse cursor is captured; scrot does have that option.) < 1622675610 248934 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Just verified that it's not a PNG-specific problem. Opening a (data URI that encodes a) 222x227 pixel JPEG file renders a rectangle that's exactly 222x227 pixels in Firefox, but 239x245 in Chromium. < 1622675611 848276 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: so that's in line with assuming 96dpi and adjusting that to 104dpi. eww. < 1622675692 86564 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or maybe 103.5 rather than 104. < 1622675714 763832 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can't believe it's intentional, I think it must be some kind of a bug. But not an obvious one to track down. > 1622675741 599413 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83872&oldid=83867 5* 03ResU 5* (+12) 10Added AEWNN < 1622675783 233103 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well it could be a feature intended for 200+ dpi displays < 1622675797 314024 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm. < 1622675811 112992 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I started chromium with --force-device-scale-factor=1 and it stopped scaling. < 1622675819 648939 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :So I guess you might be right in that. < 1622675822 203939 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :basically retina is just doubling the resolution < 1622675835 186788 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :and disables font antialiasing < 1622675838 697258 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and quadrupling required bandwidth < 1622675849 25753 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :or whatever it's called < 1622675867 394371 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's just that, I don't think it makes sense to do scaling like that when the display depth is so close. < 1622675893 947847 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: right < 1622675895 685846 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/depth/density/ < 1622675911 120170 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, for now I'll just stick that flag onto my list. < 1622675925 3557 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, my display reports 94x95 dpi, that could be fun. But maybe chrome refuses to downscale at least. < 1622675948 29341 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I guess another alternative would be to just make the display resolution lie. < 1622675963 793490 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :But maybe it's convenient to be actually able to approximate physical sizes in Gimp or whatnot. < 1622676000 726068 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :btw, recently Chrome started showing everything smaller for me both on Windows and macOS < 1622676014 833533 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(But there's no chrome or chromium currently installed here, so I won't test) > 1622676146 652679 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83873&oldid=83872 5* 03CatCatDeluxe 5* (+24) 10 < 1622677118 458181 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a02:8106:215:3300:e7ad:5ab7:4ea0:e177 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1622677430 419139 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1622677432 75308 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1622678030 684140 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Truth Machine (esolang)14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83874 5* 03ResU 5* (+587) 10Created page with "'''Truth Machine''' is an esolang created by [[User:ResU]] in 2021. [[Category:2021]][[Category:Languages]] ==Commands== {| class=wikitable !Cmd !Description |- |input(a..." > 1622678101 610313 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03ResU 5* 10moved [[02Truth Machine (esolang)10]] to [[Truth Machine (language)]] < 1622678111 855669 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, the GTK UI does `resolution / 96` as the scale factor, and then rounds it to the nearest 1/64th, meaning my 104/96 rounds to exactly 69/64. Or something along those lines. https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/main:ui/gtk/gtk_ui.cc;l=1085;drc=71ce45f2f742ca6449749a906ce5bb9948c8b555 < 1622678117 167169 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It doesn't seem to have changed recently, but maybe what has changed is how universally fractional scaling factors are applied to images, or something. Because while --force-device-scale-factor=1 does solve the ugly image scaling, everything *else* does look a little smaller now than I'm used to. But maybe it's not really logically consistent to scale text and other scalable things while keeping images < 1622678123 233585 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :unscaled. < 1622678138 423751 :fizzie!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe I'll just get used to the smaller size. < 1622678232 695667 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: not scaling pixel images a form of hinting, which has always been a compromise. < 1622678237 917017 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :+is < 1622678250 62951 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator JOIN :#esolangs < 1622678381 54335 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid JOIN :#esolangs