00:18:23 <esolangs> [[Nu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84252&oldid=84251 * Caenbe * (-103) /* Graph rewriting */ This may not be true
00:21:50 <esolangs> [[Nu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84253&oldid=84252 * Caenbe * (+3) /* Examples */ ;;;
00:32:37 <esolangs> [[Nu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84254&oldid=84253 * Caenbe * (+136) /* Graph rewriting */ It is
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00:56:57 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84255&oldid=84250 * ResU * (+356)
01:07:59 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84256&oldid=84255 * ResU * (+26)
01:11:15 <Corbin> b_jonas: Oh wow, glorious work. I pulled out my copy of the bird book, and indeed, kestrels are not allowed in Bravura's forest!
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01:20:50 <Corbin> Okay, yeah. Smullyan points out that S is "duplicative", using arguments multiple times. The linear calculus, BCI, can't build S.
01:21:02 * ski first thought the bird book was Bird & de Moor
01:21:23 <ski> yes, and `S' can't build `K'
01:21:29 <Corbin> Similarly, S can't build K, because K is "cancellative" and completely forgets an argument.
01:22:05 <Corbin> I found https://doi.org/10.1016/B978-0-444-87508-2.50017-4 which is paywalled but suggests that this is so well-known that they try to use BCSI to *approximate* K-like behavior while admitting that K itself is not buildable.
01:24:17 <Corbin> ski: Oh, sorry. The context is that Wolfram offered a cash prize for anybody who can show that S is (Turing-?) complete. But I was sure that the bird book had a disproof, and b_jonas did the hard work of looking it up.
01:24:48 <ski> mm, yea. (just finished reading that article)
01:25:05 <ski> (the Wolfram blag)
01:42:46 <esolangs> [[Shuffle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84257&oldid=83239 * Enoua5 * (+198) Reformat command table
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02:03:44 <esolangs> [[Shuffle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84258&oldid=84257 * Enoua5 * (+2083) Add explanations to all examples
02:04:19 <salpynx> Wolfram already says any TCness has to be encoded in the non-terminating S combinator evolutions, so a direct K build is already ruled out
02:04:50 <zzo38> Pokemon Card GB2 does not list the previous stages of cards in play
02:04:52 <esolangs> <ski> <CTCP>ACTION . o O ( gnyrx ? )<CTCP>
02:08:50 <esolangs> [[Shuffle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84259&oldid=84258 * Enoua5 * (+449) Add section explaining memory layout
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02:10:45 <salpynx> even Ix will need to be a non terminating encoding of x, so Kxy = Ix in some non terminating way which can be decoded by something that is not universal itself
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02:13:06 <salpynx> relevant quote from the announcement > And by “emulate”, what we mean here is that a suitable “encoder”, “detector” and “decoder” can be found that will allow any evolution in the system being emulated to be mapped to a corresponding evolution in the S combinator system.
02:14:36 <Corbin> salpynx: Can you explain more what you see? I would naively and reductively assume that the I combinator simply isn't represented here; there's no way to emulate its (lack of) evolution.
02:16:21 <esolangs> [[Nu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84260&oldid=84254 * Caenbe * (+13) Better wording
02:19:27 <salpynx> It's not directly representable, but I guess that's the question: can it 'emulate' K's "cutting things down" via some kind of encoding? It'd have to include 'junk' data, which would have to be ignored by the decoder in the final step to get the result
02:20:07 <salpynx> more of Wolfram's writing linked to from somewhere in the announcement: https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2020/12/combinators-a-centennial-view/#the-world-of-the-s-combinator
02:24:15 <salpynx> Naively I wondered if you could use both sides of every K in every computation, then pick the 'real' one at the end. That'd be super inefficient with the combinatorics, and I don't know how you'd pick the correct version at the end. and it's probably more complicated than 'doing things twice' with K arguments
02:28:53 <salpynx> I guess my take is that a working emulated K in this hypothetical system must accumulate 'junk' which can be 'easily' discerned from the result of computation by the hypothetical decoder. Examining whether that kind of mechanism is possible or not is an avenue of attack.
02:30:07 <salpynx> My gut feel is any 'junk' would get smeared out through the whole combinatoric expression over time, and separating it won't be possible without doing an equivalent computation
02:34:02 <salpynx> also that Wolfram is talking about some meta computation requiring those “encoder”, “detector” and “decoder” external parts to the system, and that's possibly, as was said above by @b_jonas: "another weird game of defining what it means"
02:36:58 <salpynx> I can imagine a giant stream of combinator S's which take a single K as an argument, and duplicates and places the Ks where they need to go for reproducing any algorithm. No idea if that's helpful, but it's playing with separating parts of the system
02:37:31 <Corbin> Although we know something about their shape, at least. The bounded-time description should lead (by a handwave) to the encoder and decoder being katamorphisms.
02:39:33 <Corbin> But note that the encoder can be as simple as the identity function, if we're targeting SKI, so the question is whether there's some composition of S alone which yields K and I. IOW I think we get back up to what's been covered.
02:42:16 <Corbin> Oh wow, https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/227904/solve-the-halting-problem-for-s-combinatory-logic implies that it's not Turing-complete. Reading the paper right now, but this could be it.
02:48:53 <salpynx> I think Wolfram know that though, and that's what I was picking up from his writing. To paraphrase what I think he's asking: Taking the infinite set of identifiable non-halting S Combinator expressions, is there some encoding which can give rise to an unresolvable halting problem in their evolutions?
02:49:56 <salpynx> (if there are not infinite non-halting evolutions, then it's really busted)
02:51:08 <Corbin> Let the codec be a genuine equivalence computable in poly time. Then wouldn't the codec's existence contradict Rice's Theorem?
02:51:15 <salpynx> Re-reading my paraphrase, that does sound sketchy, but I think that's what Wolfram is really asking.
02:51:38 <Corbin> I don't want to unfairly strawman Wolfram's question, but I'm really not sure if there's more to it than that.
02:53:56 <Corbin> Meh, "genuine equivalence" is vague and wrong. This isn't yet airtight, but it's suggestive.
02:58:52 <imode> wolfram's prize got its way to here, eh.
02:59:30 <imode> for S to be TC on its own it would have to re-order the expression so that past work doesn't get in the way of current work. because it can't, it's not TC. more rigorous proofs of that exist.
03:11:12 <Corbin> Makes sense. It sounds like there's three different ways to slice that S isn't TC: S can't even implement K or I, Halting for S is decideable, and now imode's point about divergence and order of operations.
03:13:42 <imode> it's probably equivalent to a pushdown.
03:13:48 <Corbin> Unrelated: https://github.com/TartanLlama/vizh Nice!
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03:34:41 <esolangs> [[User:S1(210)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84261&oldid=84181 * S1(210) * (+346)
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04:15:45 <esolangs> [[User:S1(210)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84262&oldid=84261 * S1(210) * (+67)
04:20:03 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84263&oldid=84236 * S1(210) * (+15) /* F */ added [[Forwards]]
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04:55:12 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84264&oldid=84180 * S1(210) * (+40) making page conform more to esolang's style guide
04:57:04 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84265&oldid=84264 * S1(210) * (+0) /* External Resources */
04:58:01 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84266&oldid=84265 * S1(210) * (+1) /* External resources */
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06:10:34 <esolangs> [[Nu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84267&oldid=84260 * Caenbe * (+595) Added Binary Nu
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10:17:53 <esolangs> [[RGB4D]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84268 * Magnogen * (+3837) First commit
10:29:36 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sekoia * New user account
10:35:26 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84269&oldid=84224 * Sekoia * (+102) Introduction
10:36:50 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84270&oldid=84269 * Sekoia * (+54) Fix messup
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10:58:12 <esolangs> [[RGB4D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84271&oldid=84268 * Magnogen * (-2) ProtoBit
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11:10:11 <esolangs> [[Partitioned]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84272 * Sekoia * (+1378) Partitioned is a language based around partitions of 255 bytes that share a single byte.
11:11:06 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84273&oldid=84263 * Sekoia * (+18)
11:12:40 <esolangs> [[Partitioned]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84274&oldid=84272 * Sekoia * (+0) fix category typo
11:24:08 <esolangs> [[Tower]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84275 * Sawcce * (+2933) Created page with "= Tower = Tower is an esoteric language meaning it is designed to be fun to use or a headache to program in! This page is a copy of the walkthrough of the Tower also present..."
11:25:03 <esolangs> [[Tower]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84276&oldid=84275 * Sawcce * (-2) /* Tower */
11:25:51 <esolangs> [[Tower]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84277&oldid=84276 * Sawcce * (+42) /* Tower */
11:30:45 <esolangs> [[Tower]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84278&oldid=84277 * Sawcce * (+726) /* Commands */
11:53:36 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84279&oldid=84256 * ResU * (+138)
12:00:27 <esolangs> [[Omgrofl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84280&oldid=58626 * DeeBo * (+73) /* External resources */
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12:20:04 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84281&oldid=84279 * ResU * (+164)
12:20:08 <esolangs> [[Partitioned]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84282&oldid=84274 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) Cats, stub, WIP
12:33:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Meloons * New user account
12:45:11 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84283&oldid=84270 * Meloons * (+200) My description
12:47:00 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84284&oldid=84281 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) Cat
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13:27:20 <b_jonas> Corbin: out of curiosity, is your IRC nick supposed to be from a bird too?
13:29:07 <b_jonas> and if so, is it a combinator bird?
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13:43:36 <b_jonas> wait, so the norwegian/danish alphabet is supposed to have the last letters in the order "z æ ø å", but the swedish/finnish alphabet in the incompatible order "z å ä ö"? that decides my earlier question about encoding IRC nicks, the norwegian one is more natural because then the iso-646 encoding order matches the alphabet. but the different alphabetic order is still weird, I wonder how that got
13:44:28 <b_jonas> I should have noticed this earlier because I've seen the swedish alphabetic order enough times and did look up the iso-646 encodings and should have noticed that it's in the wrong order
13:50:46 <nakilon> Russian alphabet ends with letters that are like a trash hidden in the corner of the room ШЩЪЫЬ and then suddenly perfectly normal vowels ЭЮЯ
13:59:06 <b_jonas> nakilon: 1. "Ю" is supposed to be a "normal vowel" but it's also one of the rarest letters, though admittedly "Ъ" is even rarer. I don't understand in what sense "Ш" is trash though. 2. the latin alphabet has trash letters too, in fact even the greek one has some at the end, and holes in the middle for the purpose of gemmatria, to preserve the original phoenician order. the hebrew alphabet is the
13:59:12 <b_jonas> only extant one that does not have trash at the end.
14:03:22 <nakilon> "I don't understand in what sense "Ш" is trash" -- the word traSH is literally ends with Ш; you can see that the "trash consonants ending" actually starts with Ф consonant: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A7%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C
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14:04:04 <nakilon> Ъ and Ь aren't even either vowel or consonants -- they have no sound and words can start with them
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14:06:57 <nakilon> also you can see the Ж being the most rate in the "non-trash half of the alphabet" -- together with Ш they have a rule "can't place Ы after Ж и Ш" (mnemonically known as "ЖИ и ШИ пиши через И")
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14:10:52 <nakilon> such rules feel like a waste of entropy -- similar in English only U can go after Q and it's so weird that we didn't even learn it as a rule and I only realised it when I was like 20
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14:11:46 <b_jonas_> nakilon: were you 20 before or after Iraq was featured in the news a lot?
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14:12:07 <nakilon> also Ж and Щ are the most wide letters in any font
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14:14:11 <riv> http://forum.enjoysudoku.com/phistomefel-s-theorem-t38410.html
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14:16:27 <b_jonas> nakilon: yeah, I started to make a 6 pixel tall font, with variable width, where most characters are at most 3 pixels wide plus a 1 pixel gap (the gap is omitted between some pairs of characters), but because some letters are hard to draw that way, I have added a three-way option for whether "MNm" are all wide, or "Mm" are wide but "N" is narrow, or every ascii letter is narrow. these options also
14:16:33 <b_jonas> affect the russian letters, and indeed the three pixel wide versions are very ugly and mostly unrecognizable.
14:16:50 <b_jonas> I should eventually finish that tiny font and use it for some esoteric project
14:17:15 <b_jonas> I won't use it for everyday work, I have a large-sized fixed width font for that that I should improve
14:17:30 <b_jonas> (the basics are fine but I have to add some new characters and redo the hastily done greek letters)
14:17:39 <nakilon> OCR developers might hate Ы letter
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14:22:36 <nakilon> can't find English word for https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D1%81%D0%B2%D1%8F%D0%B7%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82
14:23:22 <nakilon> ^ my father was связист in the army -- it's where you send and receive in Morze
14:24:16 <nakilon> so for speed considerations they were told to use Ижица (V) symbol for Ж because Ж was too big https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izhitsa
14:30:13 <nakilon> Taneb yeah, probably this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signaller "Signallers, a.k.a. Combat Signallers"
14:30:37 <nakilon> idk what's the exact difference between radio and signalling, радист and связист
14:31:05 <Taneb> Perhaps signallers are also trained with lamps or flags or something
14:31:21 <Taneb> Whereas radio operators have some electric engineering training?
14:32:41 <nakilon> it's weird to use the word "signal" in two so different cases
14:34:54 <nakilon> yes, he was into the https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8E%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%BE (again no link to English wiki ..() that is about fixing and creating electronics yourself
14:36:02 <nakilon> basically he used only radio technologies, no visual stuff, the military base was underground actually
14:37:18 <nakilon> I would expect the English article to be named "Hobby electronics"
14:38:22 <nakilon> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_corps
14:45:00 <Corbin> b_jonas: Ha, that's a fun idea! Curiously, it seems that Smullyan didn't use any corvids (blackbirds, magpies, ravens, rooks, crows, bluejays, etc.) for their bird list.
15:02:30 <keegan> I should finish learning morse
15:05:44 <esolangs> [[PaRappa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84285&oldid=83193 * Zero player rodent * (+0)
15:06:27 <esolangs> [[PaRappa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84286&oldid=84285 * Zero player rodent * (+2)
15:07:15 <keegan> in amateur radio it is common to use the letter N in place of the numeral 9, for speed (-. versus ----.)
15:08:55 <keegan> so for example a perfect signal report will be given as 5NN [..... -. -.] instead of 599 [..... ----. ----.] for a time savings of more than 50%
15:11:01 <keegan> in the US it is possible to select your callsign (subject to restrictions) and operators who do a lot of CW (morse) will try to get one with a low "weight"
15:13:08 <nakilon> imagine IRC transmitted in morze
15:13:43 <HackEso> -- ..- .-. ... ..- / --- -. / ... ..- ..- .-. .. -.- --- -.- --- .. -. . -. / ...- . ... .. . .-.. .-.- -- .-.- .-.- -. / ... --- .--. . ..- - ..- -. ..- - / .- .-. -.- - .. -. . -. / -. .. ... .-.- -.- .-.- ... .-.. .- .--- ..
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15:14:13 <HackEso> morse? No such file or directory
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15:24:20 <esolangs> [[Talk:PaRappa]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84287 * Caenbe * (+150) Created talk page
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15:27:39 <nakilon> can't figure out what animal the URSU is
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15:33:31 <fizzie> Surely it's MURSU, not URSU.
15:33:47 <fizzie> (And that's a walrus.)
15:34:38 <fizzie> I think that's from the lead paragraph of https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mursu
15:35:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84288&oldid=84143 * Grs * (-995) Replaced content with "Do you have any ideas to add something? -~~~ ~~~~~"
15:35:33 <esolangs> [[Talk:OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84289&oldid=84288 * Grs * (-107) Blanked the page
15:39:53 <oerjan> fizzie: just looking through the logs and noticed that the new "has changed hostmask" showed someone's pre-cloaking host, which may be a bit unfortunate (although i think that means they're not following the advice of using sasl?)
15:41:37 <HackEso> cat: /hackenv/bin/morse: No such file or directory
15:41:49 <b_jonas> nakilon: URSU is probably a bear; I don't know about MURSU
15:41:50 <oerjan> shikhin: that was you by the way, you should use sasl
15:42:09 <nakilon> it's some wrong char in that string
15:42:14 <nakilon> leading non printable char
15:42:29 <nakilon> it makes all online decaders fail to decode it
15:42:35 <b_jonas> see https://xkcd.com/2381/
15:43:09 <b_jonas> "Smullyan didn't use any corvids" wait really? I thoguht he did... let me look up the English list
15:43:43 <b_jonas> Corbin: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Combinatory_logic says "Blackbird"
15:44:47 <nakilon> `` ruby -e "p '18:13:43 <HackEso> -- ..- .-.'.dump"
15:44:49 <HackEso> "\"18:13:43 <HackEso> \\u200B-- ..- .-.\""
15:45:01 <oerjan> nakilon: it's the invisible space which HackEso prepends if the output starts with non-alphanumerics
15:45:10 <oerjan> it's to avoid triggering other bots
15:46:52 <esolangs> [[User:Caenbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84290&oldid=84237 * Caenbe * (-173)
15:47:53 <Corbin> b_jonas: Oh, nice, a bluebird of bluebirds. I guess I'm just a fancier sort of composition.
15:48:01 <b_jonas> oerjan: I still think this sasl thing is sort of a scam. I like SASL, but advertising it because some people's clients are broken and will join channels without waiting for nickserv identify to succeed is silly. waiting for nickserv to reply that you're identified, or waiting for the server to tell you your hostmask has changed if you do it for a cloak, isn't actually easier than doing the SASL stuff
15:48:36 <oerjan> b_jonas: automatically?
15:49:10 <oerjan> i think you may be biased by being a person who finds programming trivial hth
15:49:29 <b_jonas> it's the same sort of argument that leads to telling others that you shouldn't send notices because other people's clients are broken and render them wrong, or shouldn't send color codes because they annoy other people becuase their client shows them in ugly colors or whatever.
15:49:55 <shikhin> oerjan: Yeah, whoops, too lazy to set it up just yet, but thanks.
15:50:02 <nakilon> I won't call ability to join channels without identifying "being broken"
15:50:44 <nakilon> it's some flaw in the cloacking concept
15:51:27 <b_jonas> oerjan: someone has to put the SASL thing in the irc clients too, just as much as the rest. you can say that it's worth because it works the same on multiple networks, so it's easier to implement because of that. in particular, nickserv id works backwards between libera/freenode and oftc. that would be a good argument, except for that if you try SASL on a server that doesn't understand SASL, you'll get
15:51:33 <b_jonas> a hang. but that's not the argument they're making.
15:51:58 <b_jonas> if your IRC client doesn't know SASL, and you don't know programming, it's just as hard to teach it SASL
15:53:07 <nakilon> just don't disconnect from the server *shrug*
15:53:17 <oerjan> you're right, i was comparing apples and oranges
15:53:50 <nakilon> if you "know programming" you can set up a BNC and probably can find a machine with reliable network connection
15:53:59 <b_jonas> they could also make the argument that someone could guess when they'll reconnect after a disconnect, and WHO their hostmask before they rejoin the channel
15:54:24 <b_jonas> I'm not against SASL, only against the stupid arguments that some IRC folks make about it
15:54:50 <b_jonas> (and yes, freenode also requires SASL for some remote addresses as a way to control spam)
15:57:08 <oerjan> so ideally WHO shouldn't be possible until the SASL has gone through either...
15:57:24 <oerjan> no idea whether the servers enforce that
15:58:44 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, WHO isn't possible before SASL because your connection doesn't have a nick that WHO could target, nor a channel it's joined to
15:59:02 <b_jonas> SASL is before you choose a NICK
16:00:17 <nakilon> is there any standard on "Tags" in the unicode table? like if I ask for "looks like a dot" and it would come up with . and · and •
16:03:49 <keegan_> 08:53 < nakilon> just don't disconnect from the server *shrug*
16:03:55 <keegan_> in soviet russia, server disconnects from YOU!
16:04:06 <keegan_> (been a lot of that this morning...)
16:05:15 <keegan_> are the sore losers at freenode packeting libera?
16:05:27 <nakilon> this matches too many chars that are not dots https://util.unicode.org/UnicodeJsps/list-unicodeset.jsp?a=[:name=/\bDOT$/:]
16:05:46 <keegan_> or is it just growing pains
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16:15:19 <nakilon> this utility gives different sets of analogues for two different dots
16:15:27 <nakilon> https://util.unicode.org/UnicodeJsps/confusables.jsp?a=.&r=None
16:15:29 <nakilon> https://util.unicode.org/UnicodeJsps/confusables.jsp?a=%C2%B7&r=None
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16:18:03 <nakilon> there should be some Unicode similarity graph, probably made manually
16:20:33 <b_jonas> keegan_: no, it's spammers who spam both freenode and libera
16:20:47 <b_jonas> they target both, or whichever networks/servers are the most popular
16:21:29 <b_jonas> the sad part is when the spammers spam on freenode, then people go complain in #libera , even though the libera ops can't do anything to stop spam on freenode
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16:24:28 <fizzie> oerjan: Yeah, I guess I could remove the old one from the rendered view, or just omit the event entirely; it's not a super-interesting one.
16:24:57 <fizzie> The previous QUIT-and-JOIN combo contained the same information, I just wasn't rendering the hostname in QUITs (or JOINs).
16:25:55 <nakilon> also the https://util.unicode.org/UnicodeJsps/confusables.jsp tool can't find the char that looks like 'ф' that I saw somewhere just few minutes ago
16:26:12 <nakilon> while the https://shapecatcher.com/ found it immediately https://i.imgur.com/STqB0fG.png
16:28:15 <fizzie> Something I've always found slightly odd about CertFP auth is that the client needs to explicitly invoke SASL EXTERNAL to make the identification happen pre-login, even though it's not like there's any fundamental theoretical reason the server couldn't just... make it happen.
16:32:06 <b_jonas> nakilon: which one? ϕ (greek alternate) or a math or APL symbol?
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16:33:25 <nakilon> in that test search case I was looking exactly for the one that shapecatcher.com recognized
16:35:38 <b_jonas> nakilon: or ɸ the phonetic symbol?
16:38:09 <nakilon> "latin small letter qp digraph"
16:38:34 <nakilon> I expected the tool at unicode.org to give me it if I ask it for ф or Ф
16:38:47 <nakilon> because they are what I'm able to type
16:39:02 <b_jonas> nakilon: it does if you ask for ϕ
16:40:21 <nakilon> but I don't have a way to type it
16:41:31 <nakilon> opt+ф types 'd', opt+a types 'å'
16:43:00 <esolangs> [[Stop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84291&oldid=82999 * Caenbe * (+38) Cat
16:43:40 <nakilon> those shapecatcher guys could make an excellent similarity graph
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16:59:54 <esolangs> [[Nu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84292&oldid=84267 * Caenbe * (+1) /* Binary Nu */
17:00:46 <b_jonas> "<nakilon> but I don't have a way to type it" =>
17:00:50 <HackEso> #esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/
17:00:54 <b_jonas> copy it from http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
17:17:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Talk:OLNMLN]]": Author request: blanked by only commenter
17:35:54 <nakilon> I would not know it's in greek block if you didn't tell me
17:41:02 <b_jonas> it's a fricking greek letter phi
17:41:07 <b_jonas> how would it not be in the greek block?
17:41:16 <b_jonas> yes, it's an unnecessary second character for the same letter that already has one
17:41:36 <b_jonas> there's a tradition there of it appearing twice in some character sets, an old enough tradition, so it has to be represented twice in unicode
17:41:53 <b_jonas> and since that's an old enough tradition it was in the earliest versions of unicode in the 90s so it's in the greek block
17:42:48 <b_jonas> I can't even say it's wasting space, unlike some of the stuff that they put to the first (1<<12) code points, and yes, I was told that they hadn't invented utf-8 yet so they didn't know the first (1<<12) code points were special
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17:43:23 <nakilon> I don't imagine greek phi with that link pointing up, only down
17:45:42 <b_jonas> nakilon: to me it seems like the one with the straight line is a printed/carved form and the one with the loop is the handwritten form, sort of like the italic vs roman forms of many of the latin/cyrillic letters, which is why it's odd that it's double-encoded, but the greek script doesn't do that for many letters, so phi and theta got singled out
17:46:58 <b_jonas> it's probably Knuth who popularized having both in the same font in the same book
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17:48:42 <nakilon> also you write ф and phi differently -- in Russian it's like 8, you go up when switching from left half to right one, now like in phi where you just move right
17:49:14 <b_jonas> or perhaps it was Adobe, since one of their standard postscript fonts has both
17:49:53 <esolangs> [[Among Us]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84293&oldid=82352 * Zero player rodent * (+98)
17:50:10 <b_jonas> nakilon: oh, you're saying that it's not actually similar to the russian phi so if you're searching for characters that look similar in appearance to the russian phi you wouldn't think to look in the greek block?
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17:52:34 <nakilon> that unicode.org tool does not give "qp digraph" for phi too
17:53:18 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/STqB0fG.png
17:53:38 <nakilon> (the second time I have a feeling you missed this link)
17:54:39 <b_jonas> I don't think I've ever seen that
17:54:54 <b_jonas> "Additions for Africanist linguistics
17:55:14 <nakilon> but somehow I saw it just two hours ago
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17:55:27 <nakilon> and then to test the unicode.org tool I tried to find it
17:55:36 <b_jonas> there are a lot of such supposedly roman letters that are only used as either phonetic symbols or trying to make a transcription for africian languages by linguists
17:55:40 <nakilon> by asking to show me letters similar to ф
17:55:58 <b_jonas> sure, they might exists but I ignore most of them unless they also happen to have some more common use
17:56:30 <b_jonas> most of the latin extended C block is such rare letters; this one is in latin extended B which has some more normal stuff
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18:08:04 <nakilon> if I had the similarity graph I would make such tool that...
18:09:36 <oerjan> "Labial-uvular stops are much rarer, but have been found in three Mangbutu-Efe languages spoken in the Democratic Republic of the Congo and Uganda: Mamvu, and Lese."
18:09:53 <nakilon> you type "dot" and it finds all these chars https://unicodelookup.com/#dot/1 then finds the one with the smallest distance sum to all the rest and lists all them sorted by distance to that one
18:10:17 <oerjan> i guess that's what those africanists are studying
18:10:39 <nakilon> ...printing all these chars one per line, filling the line by all the chars in unicode that look like them
18:11:42 <nakilon> (I mean not similarity graph but similarity matrix)
18:12:49 <oerjan> hm nope, it's apparently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_labiodental_plosive
18:15:11 <nakilon> I have no idea what the "labiodental" mean but Afrika is Африка
18:15:42 <esolangs> [[RGB4D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84294&oldid=84271 * ProtoBit * (+763) Added truth machine program and some minor formatting improvements
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18:16:10 <oerjan> nakilon: f actually is labiodental
18:16:26 <oerjan> although this symbol represents a stop, not a fricative
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18:16:58 <oerjan> it means it's made with lips touching teeth
18:17:08 <riv> did anyone like my sudoku link?
18:17:13 <nakilon> bottom lip upper teech? I see
18:17:20 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84295&oldid=84273 * ProtoBit * (+12) Added RGB4D to the language list
18:18:11 <nakilon> my father loved solving sudoku
18:18:43 <oerjan> i used to but i'm out of practice
18:19:26 <nakilon> we were buying those newspapers and other printed things with them but he said they have too many digits already already filled in
18:20:18 <nakilon> so I've found that one guy in internet was collecting the sudoku boards that had the minimal number of digits shown, IIRC it was 18, and he had an archive of thousands of them
18:21:13 <nakilon> so I made my father a program that he launches and it makes a PNG file with next puzzle ready to be sent to printer
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18:22:48 <nakilon> though I felt like he finds it to be less interesting than buying in a kiosk
18:23:36 <b_jonas> nakilon: print them on cheap low quality paper and give yours to the kiosk to sell them back to him?
18:23:53 <nakilon> sounds like a business idea
18:24:19 <b_jonas> yeah, they can sell extra copies to others
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19:38:08 <arseniiv> what do you do when Newton’s method doesn’t make the root more accurate when it appears it could add another decimal digit? The equation is polynomial, even a simple one: x^N − x − 1 = 0. I make numpy give me roots, pick the largest real one and try to make it better
19:39:14 <arseniiv> there’s at least one case when naive algorithm x ↦ (x + 1) ^ (1/N) makes x^N − x − 1 closer to zero than this approach
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19:40:35 <arseniiv> ah, no, N = 11 is fine, two Newton iterations suffice
19:42:08 <arseniiv> though I don’t need to chase bits, I guess I’m fine with 1e−15 errors too
19:43:22 <arseniiv> finally some rain and thunder here
19:44:01 <nakilon> velik, good thing you don't have to deal with floating point right?
19:44:52 <arseniiv> seems improbable there was no major rain for two or more weeks. Usually the climate here is more humid in summer, I even despise rains sometimes, when the weather is cyclonic and cold and all that windy unsummery stuff
19:47:41 <b_jonas> arseniiv: is the magnitude of the derivative significantly less than 1 at the root?
19:47:54 <b_jonas> it should be, otherwise you shouldn't use Newton's method as is
19:48:29 <b_jonas> or something like that, that's probably not the right criteria, I'm bad at this
19:50:01 <arseniiv> b_jonas: gotta analyze, but I think it should be decent
19:53:17 <arseniiv> the derivative at the root is N − 1 + N x^−1, and as x > 1, that’s always > N − 1; for large N it’s asymptotically 2 N − 1 as x → 1
19:54:10 <arseniiv> so that’s float magic we’re to blame here
19:55:04 <arseniiv> also maybe the root values are okay and the error is more due to x^N − x − 1. I’ll check with a CAS maybe
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20:10:11 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84296&oldid=84283 * Jetison333 * (+243) /* Introductions */
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20:52:46 <b_jonas> arseniiv: ok, but I'm not sure that's actually the right condition
20:53:06 <b_jonas> so you may have to look up what the actual condition for stability is
20:53:35 <arseniiv> though I’m pretty satisfied as it is
20:53:52 <b_jonas> arseniiv: by the way, you do know that reinventing the wheel for computing the root of a polynomial equation on the reals is in general a bad idea unless you're really good at numerical analysis, because there are existing good libraries for it, right? you can still do it for practice or learning
20:55:54 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I know! I actually started with the existing numpy function for that and I still use it
20:56:38 <arseniiv> but two Newton iterations on top of it make things even better though, for better or for worse (actually, just a single one is necessary for large N)
20:57:04 <arseniiv> also it’s a headache to write your own numeric code in large quantities!
21:06:04 <zzo38> I did make Newton fractal before, which is based on Newton's method
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21:18:43 <esolangs> [[A returns a]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84297 * Jetison333 * (+3768) Created page with "{{lowercase}} {{wrongtitle|title=a{a}}} '''a{a}''' (pronounced a returns a) is an esolang that is based on recursion. A function is just a list of cases, and can be defined b..."
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21:27:22 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84298&oldid=84295 * Jetison333 * (+23) /* A */
21:28:15 <esolangs> [[User:Jetison333]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84299 * Jetison333 * (+82) Created page with "So far I've made one esolange, [[A returns a|a{a}]], but I hope to make more soon."
21:29:50 <esolangs> [[A returns a]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84300&oldid=84297 * Jetison333 * (+1)
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22:30:25 <fizzie> https://ai.facebook.com/blog/nethack-learning-environment-to-advance-deep-reinforcement-learning/ might have some overlap with people on this channel too.
22:37:31 <nakilon> meh, wanted to make IRC morse encoder/decoder the only morse ruby gem that can encode Cyrillic is packaged in the wrong way (with dependencies lock file included) while one of the dependencies is made in the wrong way (has binary with a name 'console' that is conflicting)
22:38:48 <nakilon> yesterday I learned that the average length of working at Facebook is 8 months
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22:40:18 <nakilon> (missed ", but" somewhere above)
22:45:03 <nakilon> when your repo is a dependency for 4500 other repos and all them don't install because you can't ./bin properly https://github.com/krisleech/wisper/issues/183
22:45:12 <fizzie> Does that average take internships into account too, I wonder.
22:47:00 <nakilon> it was in a "podcast" talk interview with a girl who's currently in some consulting about how to build things
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23:03:37 <b_jonas> you esoteric guys are infecting me
23:04:10 <b_jonas> I felt a sudden urge to spell "preemptive" with a diaræsis. I could suppress it this time, but it's worrying
23:05:59 <fizzie> Just coöperate with us and you won't get hurt.
23:06:50 <fizzie> I think I saw "coöperation" spelled that way in a book (of fiction) somewhat recently.
23:08:12 <fizzie> “So we’re competing against a fuel cell for the available oxygen?” Arsibalt asked. “Think of it as coöperation.” (Anathem, Neal Stephenson)
23:09:25 <b_jonas> fizzie: that doesn't work, "ö" and "ü" just look to me like it's an umlaut changing the vowel value rather than a diaresis to separate adjacent vowels, unless perhaps it's in French text where they look a bit more confusing (even though "ö" and "ü" are very rare in French in that context)
23:09:54 -!- mnrmnaugh has joined.
23:09:59 <b_jonas> but "ë" does look like it has a diaresis, because I don't see that one used as an umlaut often
23:10:19 <b_jonas> I'm not saying it never happens, but it's not as common as with "ö" and "ü"
23:10:28 <imode> what should the minimal resolution of a glyph be.
23:11:20 <fizzie> Yeah, I do find myself forced to think of the Finnish ö (/ø/) sound whenever I see ö in "coöperation", and it does sound pretty silly.
23:11:22 <b_jonas> imode: depends on the script, I am working on a 6 pixel tall tiny latin font, but I'd never consider a 6 pixel tall kanji or hangul or vietnamese font, those just need more space
23:11:46 * imode prefers powers of two.
23:12:38 <b_jonas> even "ä" looks like an umlaut to me, even though technically "ë" as umlaut is more common in Hungarian, but "ä" is prevalent because of all the german and swedish texts
23:13:30 <imode> gimme da chonky 8x8 glyphs.
23:14:03 <oerjan> 1x1 is the best minimal power of 2 hth
23:14:04 <b_jonas> 8 pixel tall is well proven on many older computer displays and printers
23:14:27 <b_jonas> fecupboard20 my font is 20 pixel tall, that's why it's called that
23:15:24 <b_jonas> there used to be a fecupboard16, but I no longer use it, it doesn't have decent character coverage, it doesn't look nice, and I'm not distributing it because it's not a free font
23:15:49 <b_jonas> I used to use it on VGA text console
23:16:48 <fizzie> I think my SparcStation 5 had a 12x22 pixel font in its ROMs.
23:17:10 <fizzie> I think it was a little quirky though.
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23:17:37 <imode> something I'm contemplating is doing sub-glyphs.
23:18:04 <imode> either shipping an 8x8 or 4x4 "shape" pack and building glyphs on top of that.
23:18:15 <imode> so your text would probably be chonk.
23:22:06 <imode> https://mrmotarius.itch.io/mrmotext
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23:31:42 <zzo38> I have 8x8 fonts for code page 437, 850, 865, 866, and 1125.
23:33:09 <imode> are there really thousands of codepages now.
23:34:33 <b_jonas> doesn't even DOS 6.22 include one for 852 that you can enable with MODE ?
23:34:54 <b_jonas> by changing to 852 codepage and to 50 line mode on VGA that is
23:35:30 <b_jonas> but if not, you can just make such a font from a 8x8 unicode font with enough coverage
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23:37:00 <gundalow7> ／！\ THIᏚ CHΑNⲚEL HAЅ MΟVEᎠ ΤO IᏒC．LⅠBΕᎡA．ϹHAТ ＃НAMᎡADIΟ /ǃ＼
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23:38:36 <HackEso> [U+002F SOLIDUS] [U+01C3 LATIN LETTER RETROFLEX CLICK] [U+FF3C FULLWIDTH REVERSE SOLIDUS]
23:38:41 <esolangs> brctl: Filter expressions: (/|⧸|／)(!|！|ⵑ|︕)(\|﹨|＼|⧵) /!\\
23:39:14 <fizzie> Hmm, it might be missing U+01C3 in the middle part.
23:39:28 <HackEso> [U+002F SOLIDUS] [U+0021 EXCLAMATION MARK] [U+FF3C FULLWIDTH REVERSE SOLIDUS]
23:39:57 <imode> language and writing is complicated.
23:40:15 <fizzie> brctl: unfilter (/|⧸|／)(!|！|ⵑ|︕)(\|﹨|＼|⧵)
23:40:26 <fizzie> brctl: filter (/|⧸|／)(!|！|ⵑ|︕|ǃ)(\|﹨|＼|⧵)
23:40:31 <imode> I wonder what subset of UTF-8 will fit in an 8x8 character cell.
23:41:01 <fizzie> By definition all of it, unless you put a fidelity requirement on it.
23:41:13 <fizzie> There's 2^64 different 8x8 characters, after all.
23:41:43 <imode> legible characters.
23:42:01 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84301&oldid=83935 * Batata * (+60)
23:42:05 <fizzie> That's just a matter of training your users, surely.
23:42:06 <imode> guess I should just learn to read in 64-bit code blocks.
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23:45:11 <fizzie> ▐ ▛▖▐ ▘▖ ▖▘ ▌ ▄▌▌▌ ▛▖▛▘ ▛▖▄▌▛ ▞▌ ▐ ▌▌ ▛ ▛▘▌ ▌▌▚▌▌▌▐ ▖▘▛▘ ▙▌▐ ▐ ▛▖▌▌▌▌▐ ▌ ▌▌▌▌▐ ▛▘▞▖▐
23:45:15 <fizzie> ▝ ▘▘▝ ▀ ▀▘ ▝▘▀▘▘▘ ▀ ▝▘ ▘▘▀▘▘ ▝▘ ▘▝ ▘ ▝▘▝▘▝ ▄▘▘▘▝ ▀▘▝▘ ▀▘▝ ▘▘▘▝ ▝▘ ▘ ▝▘▝ ▘▘ ▘▝▘▘▘ ▘▝
23:46:10 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84302&oldid=84301 * Batata * (+45)
23:46:18 <imode> "this 2 can be hard to recognize without context"
23:46:27 <fizzie> It's a "z", as you can tell from the same pixels in "recognize".
23:47:05 <fizzie> I tried to use that font at work in Chat, but while it made the block-drawing characters monospaced, the spaces stayed proportional, and it went all wrong.
23:47:28 <imode> the 'e' looks all fucked up, like it compressed it.
23:47:52 <imode> I.. actually do not know whether my terminal font is monospaced. I think it is.
23:48:16 <zzo38> imode: Many of the lwer code page numbers are EBCDIC rather than ASCII, so the code page numbers used modern are high larger numbers.
23:48:28 <zzo38> b_jonas: I don't have 852.
23:48:36 <imode> zzo38: meant it to be a joke.
23:49:09 <zzo38> Is there a code page number for TRON?
23:49:21 <fizzie> https://zem.fi/tmp/ref.png if you want to see a reference rendering. I do like the "z" in that though.
23:49:41 <imode> oh that looks nothing like mine.
23:49:54 <imode> everything is all cronched together.
23:50:27 <imode> if you added curvature/smooth corners to the block shapes, it'd be better.
23:50:35 <imode> at least more parseable.
23:50:41 <fizzie> That's probably some sort of a width difference between space and the blocks, because that's a good description of what it looked like in Chat.
23:51:09 <imode> yeah. those blocks are definitely compressed length-wise for me.
23:51:32 <imode> because the top pixel on the 'e' is like, 1px by 8px.
23:52:08 <fizzie> Huh, that's awkward. Oh well.
23:54:08 <zzo38> Code page 852 is one of the ones I wanted though, so that if Berusky game is ported to Free Hero Mesh, that the proper orthography can be in use. (Also maybe should be added the possibility to use other font sizes too, although currently a lot of the code assumes that 8x8 fonts are used, so they will need to be changed if it is to be implemented.)
23:55:20 <fizzie> Heh, well... it didn't turn out great in my web browser on the logs page either: https://zem.fi/tmp/ref2.png
23:56:22 <fizzie> And that's styled as `font-family: monospace;` and all.
23:56:30 <imode> eugh that alignment.
23:57:33 <zzo38> My own opinion is that Unicode is bad for grid-based text displaying.
23:57:52 <b_jonas> fizzie: that's an interesting tiny font. has some decisions different from what I made in my tiny font
23:58:13 <b_jonas> even if it's the same size, most of the letters differ
23:59:34 <fizzie> It's the one I did for rfk86, I think with the main inspiration being mooz's TI-86 Befunge interpreter's font probably, though it's not exactly same as that one either.