< 1623888040 388742 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :very simple benchmark show that BIPLAN seems around 3 times slower than python, considering BIPLAN much simpler, it must be less efficient. < 1623888075 154825 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean that this is not a very good way to design P-code format, since that makes it less efficient. You can design it to be simple and more efficient, but not needing parsing; do the parsing at compile time < 1623888079 916465 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :although a month ago was 9 times slower than python :) < 1623888123 957023 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I did not consider that, you are right, I could make some of the work at compile time > 1623888177 762730 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tower14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84615&oldid=84278 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+67) 10/* Examples */ Categories < 1623888220 816264 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I probably reached a point in which the implementation is more optimized than the p-code format, yes < 1623888252 429688 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have done P-code stuff (such as Free Hero Mesh and ZZ Zero) < 1623888317 385348 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :very intriguing stuff, I am really enjoying this experiment < 1623888335 629054 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :Free Hero Mesh looks really cool < 1623888438 301461 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why you have used big numbers for the P-codes? < 1623888485 625681 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean why you avoid most values between 10 and 32768 > 1623888543 249259 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Salpynx/n-Genus Graph Embedding14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84616 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+4585) 10trying to test for n-genus embedding in source code, like wire-crossing problem. Experimental idea. < 1623888558 759296 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :They aren't avoided; they are used for constants and stuff. I suppose you are looking at instruc.h < 1623888572 458632 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes < 1623888605 588041 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I will read it don't want to waste your time explaining something I can undestand < 1623888635 247069 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN #esolangs spirgel :spirgel < 1623888650 127275 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :See internals.doc for the list of opcode ranges that are used < 1623888673 962926 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :thank you < 1623888735 646406 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :For example, opcode 0x4001 pushes class 1 to the stack, and opcode 0x0200 pushes the INIT message to the stack. < 1623888779 116456 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :the big difference is that I do not have a stack, this for sure < 1623888908 335957 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :do you think the gain in portability and simplicity of tooling obtained by an ASCII p-code values the performance loss? < 1623888934 255960 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1623888950 441217 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is very handy to have the program as a string, it can be easily transmitted whatever is the medium, potentially even via SMS > 1623888954 562866 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Salpynx/n-Genus Graph Embedding14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84617&oldid=84616 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+0) 10/* Desargues graph */ typ0 < 1623888966 498081 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :It depends on the application, probably. Sometimes it is useful, other times not < 1623889000 597954 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is not the first project in which I apply this pattern, which is probably as old as programming languages: < 1623889022 576476 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/gioblu/BIPLAN/tree/master/src/interfaces < 1623889036 901882 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have interfaces which abstract system calls, the thing can easily run more or less everywhere < 1623889048 416403 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :Arduino Mega -> Linux < 1623889049 126417 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Using a stack makes it easier to parse and makes it unnecessary to deal with precedence, too < 1623889092 503856 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :the usecase is fit a simple VM I can understand in a very limited machine < 1623889111 41894 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :and have the chance to inspect it / run it everywhere I need < 1623889167 768585 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, although it is still possible to improve it in many ways, although other than that it does seem a good idea for what you seem to be trying to do. < 1623889189 280624 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD2hqngGI6U&feature=emb_title < 1623889191 474695 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :check this out < 1623889227 264211 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :it can be re-programmed using the arduino toolchain, I could fit in there a more modern language than tinybasic and write my own applications directly in there < 1623889254 240365 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I built some arduino BASIC computers, very cool, but the language sucks < 1623889288 43442 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :the arduino boards need a very slick impl, even micropython does not fit < 1623889316 63806 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I wrote BIPLAN < 1623889382 702171 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would be very happy to improve it, if you have any idea and will to share it I would be happy to try to implement them < 1623889652 721130 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Having separate instruction for print character, print string, and print number, also would be better I think, than using such things as "print index" < 1623889751 220479 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN #esolangs spirgel :spirgel < 1623889826 210940 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Forth is another alternative to BASIC < 1623889837 558418 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :true, print does not look nice, specially because I have to carry the information of the type < 1623889850 78079 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :from the bottom of the parser < 1623889883 167775 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, for sure better than BASIC, although I cannot work productively with that < 1623889930 239840 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? forth < 1623889932 232220 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Since Biblical times, Forth has been the go-to language for multiplication. < 1623889968 729718 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, although it for sure looks intriguing < 1623889997 346348 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :hehehe < 1623890007 240244 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1623890044 213216 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1623890051 847586 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I really miss a computer that does not need minutes to boot, and additional stuff to be able to be used for general purpose computation < 1623890196 995619 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the smart response, being arduino compatible is for sure a good base, with a language like BIPLAN a lot of stuff could be done, the code editor itself could be written in BIPLAN < 1623890258 205188 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I will see what happens having dedicated p-codes for the print function, thank you < 1623890524 961792 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I agree about missing a computer that does not need minutes to boot and that stuff. I also had idea of new computer system, that has BIOS and Forth in ROM, so it can just load right away and does not need a separate operating system < 1623890577 541226 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could do that with the smart response if you have familiarity with the arduino toolchain < 1623890621 464853 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :for sure is a limited machine, but that is portable and very nice :) < 1623890724 285868 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I enjoy coding since the 2000s but I still see forth a little scary, although I have probably never jumped into it or had the necessity to use it. < 1623890794 183552 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN #esolangs spirgel :spirgel < 1623891065 167252 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1623891786 227844 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:a50e:5e77:43cc:7a05 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1623891873 924549 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN #esolangs spirgel :spirgel < 1623892158 875329 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1623892306 154353 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 JOIN #esolangs delta23 :delta23__ < 1623892892 267568 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN #esolangs spirgel :spirgel < 1623893189 215024 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1623893274 920602 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :forth is neat. needs more abstractions. < 1623893499 50013 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:a50e:5e77:43cc:7a05 JOIN #esolangs * :anon < 1623893798 53125 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:a50e:5e77:43cc:7a05 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1623893811 211412 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 JOIN #esolangs salpynx :[https://kiwiirc.com] salpynx < 1623894137 759548 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN #esolangs spirgel :spirgel < 1623894417 736511 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1623894438 8028 :cd!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony NICK :moon < 1623895205 276921 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN #esolangs spirgel :spirgel < 1623895483 279036 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1623896312 788537 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:a50e:5e77:43cc:7a05 JOIN #esolangs * :anon < 1623896600 717272 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:a50e:5e77:43cc:7a05 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1623896713 666570 :pikhq!sid394595@user/pikhq PRIVMSG #esolangs :forth is pretty clever, but it's not really done as a language for big systems. it's done as one that works decently _while being small) < 1623896810 583795 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :one wonders what scaling that up might look like. < 1623896877 993537 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, think "clojure, but for forth". < 1623896968 212183 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN #esolangs spirgel :spirgel < 1623897221 765795 :moon!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :FORTH is my favorite choice for small embedded systems < 1623897222 485299 :moon!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :like < 1623897234 334413 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1623897236 222948 :moon!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esolangs :my Propeller 2 has a FORTH in about ~12KiB of it's 16KiB ROM and it's pretty much full featured < 1623897328 662148 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :in all my workings with concatenative languages, the split between "you're just using a stack machine" and "this is a lisp using reverse polish notation" gets wider and weirder the more you look around. < 1623897353 596408 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :in Forth you've got a pretty explicit memory model. < 1623897357 645481 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :in PostScript you don't. < 1623897363 245413 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :(afaiui) < 1623897382 657526 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :but you can build things out of lists/quotations in PostScript. < 1623897394 263517 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :you have to decide how to build things using Forth. < 1623897405 325760 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :does PostScript have stuff like Forth's "immediate words"? < 1623897440 250751 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :i.e can I fit an "infix expression parser" into PostScript and use it as a DSL, I wonder. < 1623897481 676306 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I just want a categorical concatenative language. No variables or stack effects, just composition. < 1623897509 204301 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :you kinda need stack effects to do any kind of expression reordering. < 1623897561 814182 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :It can be done with algebra alone. Also, maybe expressions aren't a good unit of code; I want arrows/morphisms instead. < 1623897561 955146 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess.. what do you mean by "stack effects". < 1623897607 94281 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :do you have maybe some sample of how that'd differ from an existing concatenative language? or what it'd look like syntactically and behave like semantically? < 1623897621 602614 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :"categorical concatenative language" doesn't really conjure many concrete feelings for me. < 1623897629 800304 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. the typical Forth has `dup`, which copies the top of stack and pushes that copy. Meanwhile, the typical Cartesian closed category has `dup : A -> (A, A)` which takes a value and returns a pair of that value, duplicated. < 1623897699 54079 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean, you'd then need to add things to destructure those pairs. < 1623897725 920398 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :`dup first` would be equivalent to the stack effect, I guess. how do you deal with expressions that deal with multiple items at a time. < 1623897727 241969 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :dup? No such file or directory < 1623897730 992665 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry hackeso. < 1623897735 131587 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes. Here's an example abomination syntax: https://bpa.st/4EXQ < 1623897761 290386 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Currying and uncurrying is the standard answer. < 1623897761 374715 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't understand any of that. < 1623897779 311097 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :can you de-jargon that. < 1623897900 265007 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you have a function that's applied like f(x, y) then there's an altered version f' which is called like f'(x)(y). We say that f' is the "curried" form of f, or that f is the "uncurried" form of f'. < 1623897921 683529 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :This is the standard way that Cartesian closed categories deal with multiple arguments simultaneously. < 1623897952 945291 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, I get what currying is. < 1623897966 293723 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN #esolangs spirgel :spirgel < 1623897980 569133 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :you still... need a stack, though. < 1623897999 869959 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Surely to be a "curried" form it should include some cumin, turmeric, etc.? < 1623898001 313832 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, by definition. you need to hold at least two items: the "structure" you want to work on and the operand. < 1623898061 233337 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's just a pair. There's an arrow ([X, Y], X) -> Y for evaluation. < 1623898100 293380 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :that.. doesn't really address my concern, though. < 1623898105 839838 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :how are you "evaluating" this. < 1623898111 76508 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :The concatenative language need not mirror the opcodes of a low-level stack machine. That's mixing language design with runtime design. < 1623898137 762938 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I dunno, I was going to throw it all into RPython and generate a JIT. I'm pretty lazy. < 1623898150 881579 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :that I'll agree with, but "stack operations" map prety well to the very high-level requirements of "re-ordering data". < 1623898171 152120 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :you need to be able to duplicate, erase, and re-order things. < 1623898171 465497 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1623898183 639695 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :and you need to be able to handle multiple of those things at once, so where are you storing your "data". < 1623898188 509840 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I don't understand the split of "you're just using a stack machine" and "this is a Lisp using RPN"; a categorical arrow is neither. < 1623898238 986135 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's the difference between "I'm manipulating a linked list and blocks of memory" and "I'm manipulating abstract lists of symbols using a small base of primitives". < 1623898241 656559 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :All of the immediate parallelism is done with pairs. This is the "monoidal" approach. It is a little silly and reductive at first, but it does work. < 1623898257 452048 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :parallelism? < 1623898258 270361 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1623898287 557512 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, multiple things at once. < 1623898289 482179 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1623898312 854151 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, humor me for a second. < 1623898328 31224 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :what is the equivalent of, say, 1 2 + 3 4 + * in your language. < 1623898368 481663 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :and something like `dup *`, or the quadratic formula. < 1623898395 600153 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :the last one usually strains people. < 1623898411 653900 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :It could be as simple as `*(+(1, 2), +(3, 4))`. They're applicative trees. < 1623898424 607215 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :so.. you're talking about a lisp, then. < 1623898438 784123 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe? I thought that Lisps usually had names and lambdas. < 1623898446 103659 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's not really concatenative, the syntax doesn't form a monoid. < 1623898447 988934 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm kind of sick of both of those things. < 1623898453 314659 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:a50e:5e77:43cc:7a05 JOIN #esolangs * :anon < 1623898455 699279 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah you and me both. < 1623898493 103464 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :All categories form monoids under composition. My example syntax (both here and in the abomination writeup) goes from left to right. If I write `fg`, imagine it as `comp(f, g)`. < 1623898531 153253 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :can you write that in a manner that doesn't involve explicit bracketed delimiters. < 1623898603 561742 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :the point of a concatenative language is that you can stitch arbitrary program fragments together. < 1623898614 205870 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :and slice them apart at any point. < 1623898722 225795 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:a50e:5e77:43cc:7a05 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1623898744 537842 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Stitch, yes; slice, no. Indeed I know of no Forth or concatenative language with the second property. < 1623898756 558810 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :well y'do now. :P < 1623898761 300521 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :mine. < 1623898785 375418 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :How do you handle quotations? Definitions? < 1623898794 838056 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :defining them via composition and quotation. < 1623898803 451600 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :one sec, I can go into this more after a dog walk. < 1623899080 220238 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN #esolangs spirgel :spirgel < 1623899342 171641 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1623899822 314693 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Culex looks interesting, and the formalism is nice to have. If there was an interpreter I'd play with it to make sure I understood it. The S and K definitions make sense (but the visible backticks in that view are distracting and breaking my concentration :) < 1623900141 354159 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's not good, IMO. I have been frustrated the past few weeks by the fact that the last language that wanted to be categorical without names was Hagino's Categorical Programming Language. < 1623900227 2110 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm so tired of syntax. I hate typing. I don't understand why I have to write out the same programs that we've been writing for decades, but in Yet Another New Syntax every time. < 1623900294 548988 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :back. < 1623900300 440677 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: you'd looooooove Feather. < 1623900327 380883 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :lemme show you some samples! that don't work because I'm an idiot and made a destructive change to the interpreter (that salpynx is helping me unwind), but used to work. < 1623900370 309399 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://bpa.st/ASOQ < 1623900469 121208 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nifty. Not sure if I believe the slicing property, but I can see how it's approached. < 1623900488 58114 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :the brackets are simply pieces of code. < 1623900499 291547 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :rather, "words" in forth parlance. < 1623900522 81413 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :[ pushes a delimiter, ] composes everything until it hits that delimiter. < 1623900522 334516 :j-bot!~jbot@2a02:e00:ffec:76e::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :imode: |spelling error < 1623900522 372741 :j-bot!~jbot@2a02:e00:ffec:76e::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :imode: | pushes a delimiter, ] composes everything until it hits that delimiter. < 1623900522 372792 :j-bot!~jbot@2a02:e00:ffec:76e::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :imode: | ^ < 1623900526 418746 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry j-bot. < 1623900565 744429 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :every piece of syntax in that file can be sliced apart to yield a valid program. < 1623900618 513108 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :the primitives are thin: dup swap drop left right compose quote apply ! < 1623900642 539048 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :you build quotations (without any prior definitions) via compose and quote. < 1623900676 569276 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :How's that first line work then? Doesn't it have `.` and `define` as primitives? Do tokens change behavior depending on context? < 1623900695 267589 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN #esolangs spirgel :spirgel < 1623900699 87867 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :"define" is a primitive. "." is defined as a shorthand for "compose". < 1623900721 88352 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :"define"s effect is simply "take a thing, and a symbol, and put it in the global environment". < 1623900731 994883 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's just some shorthand. < 1623900798 522470 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see, cool. Hope you get your interpreter working again. < 1623900810 246046 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :will post it if I do. < 1623900815 48584 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's neat to see it in action. < 1623900849 867902 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :for example, just typing out 'if' in this case will plop a giant set of quotations onto the "stack". < 1623900881 304150 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :that can be terminated by a "then", and actually does checks for valid syntax. < 1623900908 630379 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :the if ... then ... else ... end syntax is defined on lines 161 through 194 of that file. < 1623900922 376829 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1623900933 351107 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1623900996 256816 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1623901005 958913 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1623901446 246157 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Are you able to set up the log on the IRC channel I have set up for my projects too now (in a different directory, but with the same raw logs formats)? < 1623901524 335793 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I forgot who it was, but whoever it is if they agree to set it up I will grant the +t permission for them) < 1623901685 278925 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN #esolangs spirgel :spirgel < 1623901958 317934 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1623902131 681954 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:a50e:5e77:43cc:7a05 JOIN #esolangs * :anon < 1623902437 681416 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:a50e:5e77:43cc:7a05 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1623902639 210053 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1623903383 801931 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN #esolangs spirgel :spirgel < 1623903678 868413 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1623904366 343981 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN #esolangs spirgel :spirgel > 1623904404 332457 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Salpynx/n-Genus Graph Embedding14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84618&oldid=84617 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+0) 10/* Specific embeddings to demonstrate genus */ the other English < 1623904589 718876 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :imode: PostScript doesn't have something like Forth's "immediate words", although it does have that you can write // to immediately replace a name by what it refers to rather than waiting for being executed < 1623904626 245451 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1623904701 25009 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :However, procedures are just executable arrays and can be manipulated like any other arrays, so you can do what you want with them < 1623904784 305503 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :fair. < 1623905255 448451 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can probably use it as a DSL. < 1623905320 200392 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN #esolangs spirgel :spirgel < 1623905573 156799 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1623906373 350891 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN #esolangs spirgel :spirgel < 1623906618 236610 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1623908109 279248 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN #esolangs spirgel :spirgel < 1623908396 328562 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1623909161 838933 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN #esolangs spirgel :spirgel < 1623910266 802402 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1623910383 769464 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel JOIN #esolangs spirgel :spirgel > 1623910446 373958 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Rphii 5* 10New user account > 1623911210 680928 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84619&oldid=84603 5* 03Rphii 5* (+77) 10~~~~ > 1623911242 976393 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84620&oldid=84619 5* 03Rphii 5* (+74) 10/* Introductions */ < 1623911325 265083 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1623911402 144215 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 QUIT :Quit: Connection closed > 1623911422 519094 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Rphii14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84621 5* 03Rphii 5* (+64) 10First steps > 1623912242 494113 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tiltedc14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84622 5* 03Rphii 5* (+272) 10Created < 1623912245 78979 :Trieste!T@user/pilgrim QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds > 1623912273 513902 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84623&oldid=84608 5* 03Rphii 5* (+14) 10/* Non-alphabetic */ < 1623912337 268909 :Trieste!~T@user/pilgrim JOIN #esolangs pilgrim :T > 1623912458 776221 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84624&oldid=84623 5* 03Rphii 5* (+14) 10/* Tiltedc */ < 1623913057 8970 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1623913690 304640 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river JOIN #esolangs river :river < 1623914048 611994 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1623914872 810522 :spirgel!spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel QUIT : < 1623915934 137118 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:a50e:5e77:43cc:7a05 JOIN #esolangs * :anon < 1623916206 161867 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:a50e:5e77:43cc:7a05 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1623916263 303603 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1623917213 481395 :hendursa1!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1623917410 484910 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1623917697 218277 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1623917955 925926 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:a50e:5e77:43cc:7a05 JOIN #esolangs spruit11 :anon < 1623918258 777595 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:a50e:5e77:43cc:7a05 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1623919274 634932 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest86 < 1623919602 370822 :Trieste!~T@user/pilgrim QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1623919725 712695 :Trieste!T@user/pilgrim JOIN #esolangs pilgrim :T < 1623919853 680664 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1623919880 263136 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84625&oldid=84624 5* 03VilgotanL 5* (-14) 10remove duplicate < 1623919939 39996 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:a50e:5e77:43cc:7a05 JOIN #esolangs * :anon < 1623920231 34161 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:a50e:5e77:43cc:7a05 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds > 1623920284 649933 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tiltedc14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84626&oldid=84622 5* 03Rphii 5* (+8) 10added return value for cleaner C code < 1623921042 611115 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1623922747 197004 :imode!~imode@user/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1623923506 681327 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:a50e:5e77:43cc:7a05 JOIN #esolangs * :anon > 1623923649 591178 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tiltedc14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84627&oldid=84626 5* 03Rphii 5* (+34) 10adjusted description < 1623928681 47644 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:a50e:5e77:43cc:7a05 QUIT :Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere. < 1623928861 174948 :fizzie[m]!~fizziezem@2001:470:69fc:105::3727 JOIN #esolangs * :@fizzie:zem.fi < 1623929274 846459 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:a50e:5e77:43cc:7a05 JOIN #esolangs * :anon > 1623929339 719885 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Community portal14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84628&oldid=84571 5* 03Fizzie 5* (-65) 10/* IRC */ Make Matrix note less tentative, since it apparently works. > 1623929347 198713 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07-14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84629 5* 03Grs 5* (+480) 10Created page with "- is a joke esoteric programming language by ~~~. The language will deny everything the programmer tells it to do, except... == Command == {| class="wikitable" |+ Command |- !..." > 1623929423 157154 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Grs14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84630&oldid=84548 5* 03Grs 5* (+7) 10 < 1623930519 694227 :Trieste!T@user/pilgrim QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1623930701 792027 :Trieste!~T@user/pilgrim JOIN #esolangs pilgrim :T < 1623931151 164245 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 JOIN #esolangs tech_exorcist :he/him < 1623932097 587662 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving > 1623932476 514611 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Column14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84631&oldid=84427 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+28) 10/* Interpreter */ See also < 1623932778 342422 :jedb!~jedb@89.38.225.44 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: have you ever heard of Joy? < 1623932839 559789 :jedb!~jedb@89.38.225.44 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION makes a note to ask imode too when he gets back online > 1623933130 606271 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tiltedc14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84632&oldid=84627 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+163) 10See also/ext. res. > 1623933336 282769 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07-14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84633&oldid=84629 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+241) 10/* Implementation (there is none yet) */ Implement cats < 1623933426 345348 :fizzie[m]!~fizziezem@2001:470:69fc:105::3727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Heh, apparently in-order delivery of messages is still a hard problem: https://zem.fi/tmp/order.png < 1623933427 752484 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. Also Cat and Kitten. Cool ideas for sure. > 1623933549 920112 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Python is Magic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84634&oldid=84454 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+48) 10/* Implementation */ Cats < 1623933730 348149 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.138 JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv < 1623933751 450895 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:a50e:5e77:43cc:7a05 QUIT :Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere. < 1623933868 612404 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas < 1623933955 895368 :jedb!~jedb@89.38.225.44 PRIVMSG #esolangs :just wanted to ask because that immediately comes to mind when you see some people talking about the gap between Forth and Lisp < 1623935825 167051 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm logreading. sorry, but "I am working since 2017 to some sort of esoteric language, I was wondering if this is not off topic" makes me laugh < 1623935854 805097 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the topic now says "esoteric programming proselytization, propagation, and pronunciation" so it's not that obvious < 1623935947 442724 :jedb!~jedb@89.38.225.44 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION tends to be more interested in obscure research languages rather than outright esoterica < 1623935978 621096 :jedb!~jedb@89.38.225.44 PRIVMSG #esolangs :except for TURKEY BOMB < 1623935983 304495 :jedb!~jedb@89.38.225.44 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that one will always remain my favourite < 1623936410 506736 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, Guest86 who is working on https://github.com/gioblu/BIPLAN : yes, this is on topic enough on this channel that you can definitely ask about it on this channel. \ < 1623936507 506719 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't care too much about programming on devices with little RAM, but from what I understand there's a distinction that you have to make here. BASIC and Forth was used on old personal computers (and later programmable calculators) for when you want to write the program directly on that device, you don't have a different computer with more RAM to < 1623936508 5670 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :compile on. they make more sense for that, though even then some parts of BASIC are outdated. < 1623936552 417763 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you seem to want a language that you compile to a bytecode on a separate computer with more RAM. that's a good thing, and it makes sense that you want something better than BASIC for that. < 1623936630 954324 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in such a language, you can afford real named local variables, long identifiers for every label, subroutine, variable, since the names don't end up in the RAM, a structured syntax that is parsed on the computer and possibly some jumps turned to jumps with byte offsets embedded in the byte code, etc. < 1623936643 610984 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest86 < 1623936651 728424 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know what existing tools are available for this, again because I don't work on such computers, and everything has a lot of RAM these days. < 1623936695 79568 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :which computers? < 1623936699 31132 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I just have the one complaint that "I really miss a computer that does not need minutes to boot" is an unfair comment if you are compiling the code on a separate computer. how quickly can you boot and transfer the compiled program to your small device? < 1623936721 705723 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Guest86: on the computers with 16K or 64K RAM, the ones you want to target here. I don't work on those. < 1623936802 506927 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, except for the part where I would still like to find out how the heck Game Boy games implement animated tiles, because from what I know the hardware isn't capable of that, e.g. is there special address translation logic for it on the cart or something, but so far I haven't found the right person to ask this. < 1623936867 353282 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas I do not compile the program on a separate computer, the whole point of BIPLAN is to have a virtual machine able to run in small computers, that uses a modern programming language < 1623936884 524159 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have written a few programs on a BASIC-programmable calculator with exactly 2K RAM, but that was like 20 years ago. < 1623936889 879242 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :both compiler and interpreter can fit in the same arduino micrococontroller < 1623936910 987651 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Guest86: oh? the compiler is on the arduino and you enter the source code form there? ok, then I want to see the details < 1623936917 979346 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs ::) < 1623936938 90682 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :you saw the video I linked? < 1623936953 746453 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd prefer to read than to watch video, but I might look at it later < 1623936964 915772 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD2hqngGI6U < 1623936975 584361 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is my preferable target, with the addition of networking < 1623937011 139591 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :BIPLAN runs also on linux because I did it to be portable, development would have been a real PITA on the arduino < 1623937054 520329 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also runs on linux => sure, you can port it to a computer with much more RAM < 1623937063 541057 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :see also what rob kai does with simple arduino boards and tinybasic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C66ceBc0ne8 < 1623937095 993667 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :imagine that thing running BIPLAN, which by far more modern, with a simple editor like nano < 1623937126 299945 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that "SMART Response XE" calculator, how much RAM does it have? < 1623937182 854268 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1623937216 974593 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :ATmega128RFA1 processor with 128k RAM, 4k EEPROM, and external 1Mbit memory chip. < 1623937233 176829 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can imagine what you can do with that? that is very very cool < 1623937280 394633 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :128K of ram. that's much better. < 1623937293 90899 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and an external 1M memory chip, much better < 1623937307 929242 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I could write the compiler in BIPLAN and store it in the memory chip < 1623937338 514969 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :and there would be a lot of space for user defined apps/programs < 1623937367 502739 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :that could also be just BIPLAN < 1623937369 758635 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, but it's 1 megabyte. I have run Windows and compilers on 1 megabyte. that's much easier. < 1623937380 81815 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a bit tight for all that, I admit < 1623937388 206163 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :no that's mega BITS sadly < 1623937397 419990 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, 1 megabit? then no < 1623937416 217255 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's only 128 kilobytes < 1623937428 159868 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so only as much as the built-in memory < 1623937458 825858 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well yes, it makes sense if you want to build some kind of bytecode compiler for conveniently programming that < 1623937480 949720 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially since that device has a keyboard that looks nice (I can't tell how usable it is) and enough keys < 1623937512 69226 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :it also has 128k of internal flash memory where I could store the compiler and the interpreter < 1623937617 367259 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :so all in all there is 128k of flash and 128k of external memory chip < 1623937636 276943 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :BIPLAN already gets translated in byte-code or p-code < 1623937651 237904 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1623937653 368285 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, the compiled program does not occupy a lot of space, for sure better than plain basic < 1623937668 611660 :Sgeo|web!~Sgeo|web@ool-18b9875e.dyn.optonline.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Sgeo|web < 1623937671 216137 :Sgeo|web!~Sgeo|web@ool-18b9875e.dyn.optonline.net PART :#esolangs < 1623937714 530887 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :for now BIPLAN looks around 2.5 times slower than python and an order of magnitude faster than tinybasic < 1623937777 434356 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I agree about the keyboard. < 1623937818 319690 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would be happy to be able to compute stuff with my own language in an air-gapped machine I can more or less fully understand. < 1623937955 646746 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :these small devices are cool, I just can't keep up the enthusiasm when I have a compact camera with hundreds of megabytes of RAM in it (admittedly it also costs about as many euros as it has megabytes of RAM), a computer with 32 gigabytes of RAM at home (that one was proportionally cheaper), and a computer with 16 gigabytes of RAM at work. < 1623938014 89821 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Guest86: "does not occupy a lot of space" => but can you then debug and edit that compiled program even if you don't have the source form? < 1623938046 278062 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :because if you do have to keep the source form, then there's not much point for the space reduction, or you can't claim that it's programmed on that device, one of that. < 1623938065 211150 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the best way to do that is to keep both versions < 1623938069 999834 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but you can have space reductions if you can compress it in a way that still lets you edit, like storing each identifier name only once and a special editor < 1623938079 581920 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(also compressing all the keywords obviously) < 1623938086 856747 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is a better idea I agree < 1623938097 913150 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you keep both versions, that's fine if you have enough RAM for that, but it doesn't really save you space. < 1623938117 38301 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :compiling can still makes sense if you can run the program easier with precomputed jumps, admittedly < 1623938120 764039 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :the compilation process is mostly done to gain speed, more than space < 1623938126 19904 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and precomputed lexical variable addresses < 1623938128 582378 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes < 1623938138 793361 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yes, I agree with you < 1623938148 627540 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :the source does not need to be in ram < 1623938154 958240 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :the bytecode yes < 1623938176 841462 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean, when the interpreter reads the byte-code, it must be in ram when the source is compiled for sure < 1623938186 109006 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could perhaps even do both, with a specialized source editor, it might still make sense if you only have 128KB or twice 128KB of ram < 1623938207 516222 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it may have sense I agree < 1623938233 980603 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :for now I do not see many computers of this sort with the features I described < 1623938241 616378 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would have bought it :) < 1623938322 838786 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :what you describe looks like a sort of de-compiler? < 1623938388 699794 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :then user defined apps (calculator, games, messanging, ecc.) could be recalled by the buttons around the screen, < 1623938412 42355 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :or by a keyword < 1623938431 525169 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :those could be themself be written in BIPLAN in the same machine that will run it < 1623938442 472750 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's the whole point :) < 1623938483 499267 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I teach at youngsters how to code, a thing of this sort would make them interested I think. < 1623938539 738193 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, being the byte-code just an ascii string, it will be easy to transmit/share that even if the machines are very different < 1623938582 87824 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :and also they could just ready the byte-code as a text file, without additional tooling, that was very handy for me while making BIPLAN < 1623938614 243714 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Guest86: not quite a decompiler. at least I don't think it's called a decompiler but you can call it that. the difference is that you'd deliberately make the compiled form usable for re-editing, eg. you would store the name of every local variable name (possibly compressed, and only once) < 1623938635 487431 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, that is a very good idea < 1623938657 5898 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"I teach at youngsters how to code" => that's another different scope, you might want a simpler but not that good system for that, and it can be worth to waste RAM for it < 1623938681 711165 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the youngsters these days can learn coding on a computer with gigabyte sized RAM, even if the program they write could fit on a simpler system < 1623938695 689817 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have been able to spark some interest in them for VMs I also have made BIPLAN with them in some lessons < 1623938737 374581 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :in my opinion removing complexity under the carpet and show them a very radical and simple construct makes them more aware of what effectively they are looking at < 1623938767 980517 :fizzie[m]!~fizziezem@2001:470:69fc:105::3727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IIRC, TI-BASIC (which definitely won't win any performance awards) gets stored in a mildly tokenized but still editable form by the built-in editor. I think that's pretty common for BASIC implementations? < 1623938796 521828 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :ciao fizzie, yes, I think at the time was called tokenization if I am not mistaken < 1623938828 719439 :fizzie[m]!~fizziezem@2001:470:69fc:105::3727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And fungot's brainfuck interpreter generates an intermediate form with +-<> run-length-encoded and [] jump targets pre-calculated, which the ^show command then reverses. < 1623938829 24718 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie[m]: uh. except that the bf functions aren't in memory. a list of categories to categorize each language ( sorry for only tangentially being on-topic) ' ( for-syntax fnord)) fnord)) < 1623938894 211309 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :more or less in BIPLAN happens more or less the same: < 1623938898 23582 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :... I don't think fungot's bf interpreter would be the best example for how to use a small device with a keyboard to write cool programs on it, or to teach programming to youngsters, but maybe I'm closed minded and traditional < 1623938898 288940 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: please read thi. it's incredible what can be done,,,and everything else is just being lame and scheme48 got it right < 1623938906 460644 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`coins < 1623938913 816429 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​02thrcoin 06befcerecoin 13heracoin 04orcystacoin 07gemorseyecoin 08entumcoin 09adecoin 02ferricoin 06cycliccoin 13myxosomniacoin 04blakkarnajord!cpucoin 07cramocoin 08heatecoin 09gracoin 02lighflcoin 06karcoin 13troncoin 04rceceivecoin 07luidcoin 08yamcoin < 1623938926 289524 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :print fibonacci(40) < 1623938926 784442 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :stop < 1623938927 281293 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :function fibonacci($n) < 1623938927 781637 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs : $a = 0 < 1623938928 281514 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs : $b = 1 < 1623938928 810679 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs : $next = 0 < 1623938929 281844 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs : for $r = 0 to $n - 1 < 1623938929 781647 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs : $a = $b < 1623938930 300325 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs : $b = $next < 1623938930 781370 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs : $next = $a + $b < 1623938931 281406 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs : next < 1623938931 781384 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :return $next < 1623938943 452672 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :compiled in: < 1623938945 6343 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :p~#(40)xf#($$)$%0$&1$#0@$'0,$$-1$%$&$&$#$#$%+$&nr$# < 1623938987 223271 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungоt: no, it's not incredible what can be done, and nobody does anything interesting with *your* brainfuck interpreter. the befunge interpreter that you run on might be a better example. < 1623939025 280550 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Geust86: yes, we can read the example from https://github.com/gioblu/BIPLAN , please don't paste the whole thing here < 1623939048 374633 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry < 1623939051 277774 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :unless perhaps you run an interpreter bot on IRC, in which case still please avoid pasting many line long code < 1623939094 999671 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :are the rules of the chat available somewhere so I can avoid breaking some again ? < 1623939171 578131 :fizzie[m]!~fizziezem@2001:470:69fc:105::3727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :As for small devices and teaching youngsters, there was that BBC micro:bit project as a modern spin of that. But I think as far as languages go it was "by default" just MicroPython, boringly enough. < 1623939221 894440 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :my students love BASIC, but hate python, they even prefer to that C or javascript < 1623939223 531602 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :O_O < 1623939225 119925 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :rules for IRC? not really, it's all a silly traditional community that doesn't tell about its own rules. the only definite rule is that if you make full logs of a channel that you want to publish, you have to advertise that in advance. which we do advertise on this channel, in the topic. < 1623939255 251496 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :17:13:41 my students love BASIC, but hate python < 1623939257 673167 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :good students < 1623939265 986440 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Guest86: do they hate real python or the micropython thing? < 1623939272 91947 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :real python < 1623939278 339558 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have not used micropython still < 1623939281 446982 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :to teach them < 1623939294 217566 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :don't teach them bad languages < 1623939303 143716 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see they are already willing to learn languages < 1623939310 260414 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :let them chose < 1623939322 986490 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :they go mad because of the many versions of the same language, and struggle finding the right docs < 1623939333 10682 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :about python < 1623939339 828188 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well I for one want my user-defined structured data, and a library function to sort data on any key, and the BASICs that I occasionally program make both of those really hard < 1623939359 125888 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :even finding specific version docs won'thelp them, since those docs are awful < 1623939360 524841 :jedb!~jedb@89.38.225.44 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Guest86: show them all the many versions of BASIC < 1623939363 50710 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1623939365 547007 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :even pushing data into an array looks ugly in the BASICs that I use < 1623939386 778461 :jedb!~jedb@89.38.225.44 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Guest86: instil in them an early appreciation for language standards! < 1623939388 79791 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"struggle finding the right docs about python" => can they read English? < 1623939399 110590 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I agree BASIC is not the right way to teach the how to think algorithmically, considering the presence of line numbers and vast use of gotos < 1623939413 925672 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Guest86: we have done away with the line numbers long ago < 1623939428 353795 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nor do we have to use gotos, we have proper structured while and if blocks now < 1623939430 734923 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :doesn't basic have functions? < 1623939432 945975 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :we don't live in the nineties < 1623939436 151691 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :functions too, yes < 1623939437 518802 :jedb!~jedb@89.38.225.44 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nothing wrong with a well placed goto < 1623939450 740278 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :true too < 1623939456 591756 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's structured data that basic still haven't really learned how to handle < 1623939479 140011 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :if your students have a BASIC where it's easy to sort an array of pairs of numbers, then it's fine that they love it < 1623939489 319739 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are BASIC dialects that are sane enough for that < 1623939500 19828 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes there are functions, but for many of them goto is a simpler concept to understand, and they end up always using it, and I must fight it in most cases < 1623939502 544145 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :though I'd prefer if pushing into an array was also easy enough < 1623939555 79141 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Guest86: yes, I have an example task that tries to teach you to use functions. it doesn't work, students don't realize that it's supposed to teach that. I should try to be less subtle. < 1623939556 382353 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I end up designing with them how array work in BIPLAN, they for sure learned how it works, they participated to the design < 1623939561 530620 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :let them learn < 1623939597 857210 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :by writing code in whatever style/way/instructions they want to < 1623939614 347738 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :until they see in practice how they all compare to each other < 1623939620 177151 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I might tell you some of those tasks just to see what you think of them < 1623939621 912060 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, I agree that is fundamental, although many of them are super disorganized and forget syntax heheh < 1623939638 831017 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Guest86: forgetting syntax is not a problem, that's what computers are for, remembering stupid stuff < 1623939642 971145 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you learn it if you use it enough < 1623939654 272829 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, that is for sure true < 1623939679 234396 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as long as you have a sane language where it's not easy to get a silently wrong program or misleading error message if you think the syntax is slightly different from what it actually is < 1623939688 446909 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I must say, they are smart, they understood closures in one lesson (using javascript) < 1623939736 638611 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :the course is almost finished, we are now doing closures in the BIPLAN interpreter implementation < 1623939762 266377 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am traditional, I don't think closures are all that important in the practical sense. I do use them occasionally, but rarely in a way where they outlive the scope of their outvalues. < 1623939783 543289 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :they are working on enabling the interpreter to find a function definition and jump until the call is found... although they still have not seen they need a end function symbol to achieve that, I hope they will notice it before running the impl < 1623939877 998384 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I agree with you about closures, I thought it could have been a good way to let them work on their internal abstract thought engine < 1623939966 875519 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I come from development, but really enjoy to teach, this is the second year, by far the best job I did for now, very refreshing < 1623940175 736736 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :how young are the youngsters? < 1623940204 297524 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, have I already asked that? < 1623940208 278468 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :14-18 < 1623940242 352693 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, I asked if they can read English instead < 1623940265 541186 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks < 1623940270 341772 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :obviously who is 14 reads english less good < 1623940334 748274 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :BASIC works well for classes of very young people, javascript and c are liked by the older ones < 1623940366 911585 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :none of them like python, I have tried lisp with the oldest without any success < 1623940396 904819 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you teach C to 18 year olds? isn't that considered a bad idea? < 1623940405 443463 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :why? < 1623940477 370740 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well I already mentioned the array sort thing, but also it's useful to have automatic checks for out of bound indexes. which, by the way, javascript is also terrible at, but at least it just silently returns the wrong thing instead of possibly overwriting memory that doesn't belong to the array in the worst case. < 1623940540 319384 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I insist a lot on the bounds' consistency of their algorithms, I hope I will spare them the time I lost myself < 1623940575 425628 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :python is sort of better, though it's also not perfect in this respect, because it will still silently tell me the wrong value for small negative indexes < 1623940581 410433 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :some of them are pretty good at c, one of the students is already working part-time using c in the afternoon, I must say, that is nice to see < 1623940583 915278 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :why can't languages still get this right? < 1623940614 262914 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :BIPLAN throws an error if you go out of bound hehe < 1623940662 353629 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I agree with you, being that just an experiment is crazy to see that stuff in production we use daily still does not do so < 1623940676 199422 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Guest86: ok, but again the sort thing. most programs I write do either a lot of array sorts or dictionary lookup. you can reduce some of those, but if you don't have a convenient way neither for sorting nor for dictionary lookups (and yes, I can do both in C if I really want to, but it's not so easy as in a high level language) then it does suffer < 1623940676 712919 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :for an educational language. < 1623940682 950510 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :here in Russia current generation is raised by people who lived in a country that was leading in half of technology fields, had own computers, etc. not all people needed to know Englsh because our own school was good enough; but after the collapse the free education is gone, the culture of respecting knowledge and science is gone, people have no < 1623940683 29105 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :way to keep up with new techonologies on their own but the old tradition that "knowing only Russian language is enough" remains -- people fool themselves < 1623940756 835065 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :naklion: well, the computer designs were cloned from the West and so lagged behind, so I don't think "leading in half of the technology fields" is that appropriate, but sure < 1623940765 404569 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas I may see what you mean, you miss in BIPLAN the concept of a list or the iterators python exposes? < 1623940778 245173 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon, I have a couple of Delta CA < 1623940805 599497 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :those are by far the best z80 based computers I have ever used. < 1623940833 5843 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :the keyboard and the editor are pure sci-fi if compared to the spectrum or the msx < 1623940836 305595 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas we even had ternary computer though < 1623940888 739127 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Guest86: heck no, not iterators in particular. I just want an easy way to create a new array, push new items into an array, possibly sort the array on the keys of my choice and possibly backwards on some keys, and then look up items by index or iterate on items or search by sorted key, and all this if the values can be structured with multiple < 1623940889 278372 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fields, some of which can be varible length arrays or strings. < 1623940909 998342 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :incredible what you were able to do, it must have helped to be on the other side, reverse engineering must have been a daily job in many sectors of IT at the time of gorbachev < 1623940960 258435 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can do all of that in C if I really want to, but I don't want to spend my time on that, so I use languages that make this easy; and most of the time I write code where the execution time isn't critical, so I can live with less efficient design, but in the few cases when I know I need my code to run fast, I do also know how to optimize it < 1623941017 684141 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and if I do an out of bounds access, I want my program to die with an error message with source code location < 1623941022 923970 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then I fix my code < 1623941038 704172 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :same on all the assertion checks that I sprinkle my code with < 1623941067 564939 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :half of my code is checking the other half because that helps me develop programs better, I don't have to handle all cases that might be in the data, the rest can give an error and then I can write the code for the cases that actually occur in my data < 1623941070 425533 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :students have to implement this stuff at least once to then use some higher languages of their choise but knowing what's under the hood < 1623941071 571931 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :occurr < 1623941095 212149 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, "occur "was right < 1623941100 970555 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :drat < 1623941121 984753 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's "occur" but "occurrence" < 1623941138 512741 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :BIPLAN is all statically defined, strings, variables and arrays are just very big indexed registers < 1623941153 451862 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: no, I don't see the point of students starting with implementing the low level stuff like that. they can learn how it's done later. < 1623941155 843900 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :very difficult to implement the first part of your suggestion < 1623941166 554663 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't agree jonas < 1623941170 354367 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :they won't learn later < 1623941172 260727 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have a friend in SAP < 1623941181 454330 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :yesterday was here, I showed him BIPLAN < 1623941188 931881 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: most of them don't *have* to learn later, most won't have a work where they write programs < 1623941194 611967 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :they'll keep living with flawed understanding of how computers work and will refuse to learn the truth, it's psychological < 1623941195 215101 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :he was not able to visualize how C code could execute BIPLAN and what was doing what < 1623941207 147576 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :my students are able to visualize that, it took some lessons, but now they are able < 1623941207 382877 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :we teach the basics to lots of people because we don't know which ones of them will want to program, and they don't know yet either < 1623941263 583415 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean, they know that the python keyword in the console is a c program that does the same we did with BIPLAN, they know about the python bytecode < 1623941278 612450 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :my friend that works in the industry doesn't, and uses python every day < 1623941279 162058 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :if someone won't code in future then it would be nothing bad in teaching them low level anyway < 1623941288 158248 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: what I do want to teach, to all the students, even the ones who won't end up programming, is to understand what a computer can do and what it can't do or can perhaps do but it's hard, in case they might want to ask someone else to program something, so they have an idea for whether they're asking easy or hard things < 1623941317 155688 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so that they can ask early to automate the things that they spend lots of work on doing manually even though they would be easy to automate < 1623941323 305006 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :for sure thsat is important wib, I agree < 1623941328 475407 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :most people who work with computers don't seem to understand that < 1623941333 364333 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :you won't understand what computers can and can't do, and what approaches are effectiev or not, if you don't teach the low level < 1623941339 210336 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that's why they can't help me in my work, where I'm the guy who automates things < 1623941353 747270 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I end up having to ask them what they are doing and tell them which parts would be how easy or hard to automate < 1623941359 332845 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then automate the easy parts < 1623941362 249019 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it saves time < 1623941395 365563 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: that might depend on what you mean by "low level". < 1623941416 872519 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :in any case BIPLAN is just a caricature of what python does, it is just a couple of thousands lines, compiler and interpreter < 1623941432 74581 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :managers who were not taught how computers work today are throwing gygabytes of RAM and a block of 4 videocards to just solve a single quadratic equation that can be solved within a nanosecond < 1623941451 164552 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually implementing a sorting algorithm or lookup in a sorted list is not a useful thing to have these people spend their time on; making them understand that you can search quickly in a telephone book or find matching names or missing names between two sorted telephone books is useful < 1623941459 975437 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I think is for sure educational, I have tried to show them inside cpython, they asked, but it was impossible to exctract much from looking inside, their attention span is small < 1623941506 428145 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: "throwing gigabytes of RAM" => those are the people who do write programs. that's an important challenge too, but not really my target here. < 1623941514 810444 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :for sure it is scary to see how slow is python, I mean, how can BIPLAN be in the same order of magnitude? < 1623941584 453671 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean I call atoi on numeric values, they are written in as strings, how can that be approaching python performance? < 1623941619 139882 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:c9fb:353b:910b:93f4 JOIN #esolangs * :anon < 1623941630 790705 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :"language runtime speed "comparison is what matters the least < 1623941654 625058 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon what you mean? < 1623941676 198972 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :with minimal edits you can reimplement almost any language in any another lagnauge changing the perfomance by magnitudes < 1623941684 423680 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :that must be a term to estimate the performance envelope < 1623941699 185806 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :programmer shouldn't care about his language speed < 1623941703 606296 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am implementing BIPLAN in c, and comparing in to the C python interpreter < 1623941734 354731 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :the only speed that matters is how quickly he can get things done < 1623941757 142745 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :you mean the coder who uses the language? heheh < 1623941770 697642 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :and tehre he struggles with shitty docs, shitty syntaxes, shity stdlib, shitty sommunity, etc. < 1623941853 3862 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :also you implement pieces of your application in different langauges < 1623941893 321415 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas I understand your point, that for sure is a big part of the role of a teacher. And I agree the teacher must not fall in love with implementation detail or they will get bored < 1623941917 115500 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :you mean that the compiler is c++ and the interpreter is c? < 1623941999 133549 :imode!~imode@user/imode JOIN #esolangs imode :imode < 1623942141 538805 :immibis!~immibis@62.156.144.218 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1623942163 952332 :immibis_!~immibis@62.156.144.218 JOIN #esolangs immibis :realname < 1623942189 287276 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :Guest86 if that's a question on my last line then no, I mean the whole product of any kind usually is made of pieces written in different languages < 1623942204 172254 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah sorry < 1623942235 261517 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :for sure the industry is a very complex ecosystem of different languages and implementations < 1623942331 407459 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I read the story of this chat and the whole recent mess, it looks to have no sense, very strange. < 1623945171 257852 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Guest86: yes, welcome to #esolangs < 1623945186 180227 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`welcome Guest86 < 1623945188 99775 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Guest86: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) < 1623945209 885999 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Guest86: also you might want to choose a more expressive nick than Guest86. < 1623945228 959017 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can use the /nick command to change your nick, or choose a nick when you start the webchat client < 1623945311 403542 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1623946450 207383 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1623946836 936340 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1623947325 868155 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Majorcob14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84635&oldid=84595 5* 03Majorcob 5* (+7) 10/* Truth-machine */ > 1623947333 723653 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07School14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84636&oldid=84610 5* 03AceKiron 5* (+219) 10 < 1623947550 789392 :Guest86!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it NICK :[O_O] < 1623947571 258028 :[O_O]!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :this really reminds me my childwood < 1623947593 285963 :[O_O]!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :when people was fighting to find the weirdest nick on iirc < 1623947723 77642 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1623948726 396496 :fizzie[m]!~fizziezem@2001:470:69fc:105::3727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :These newfangled networks with all their fancy "services" make IRC wars completely different though. It used to be all about channel takeovers, and expending a lot of effort trying to get clients and/or bots on as many servers as possible, at least where I was. > 1623948776 535721 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ZippyMagician/Ideas14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84637&oldid=76438 5* 03ZippyMagician 5* (+68) 10Change ideas > 1623949077 36904 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84638&oldid=84625 5* 03ZippyMagician 5* (+53) 10Add two esolangs I forgot to add before > 1623949231 167207 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Arsm14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84639&oldid=80680 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+13) 10Lower > 1623949281 569144 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Arsm14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84640&oldid=84639 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-2) 10Fix name < 1623949409 265440 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1623949455 510210 :[O_O]!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :one question < 1623949467 244942 :[O_O]!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :is this implementation approach of the function call in an interpreter sane? < 1623949468 342216 :[O_O]!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/gioblu/BIPLAN/blob/master/src/BIPLAN.c#L514 < 1623949519 111024 :[O_O]!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean, I recursively call bip_expression that may be another function, so the overhead that would have gone in the vm stack (which BIPLAN does not have) is pushed on the stack of the real machine < 1623949580 717198 :[O_O]!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do not see a better way to do it for now without adding a lot of complexity < 1623950026 116839 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1623950258 624990 :Guest20!~Guest20@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest20 < 1623950299 892860 :Guest20!~Guest20@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it QUIT :Client Quit < 1623950437 622601 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-91.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie[m]: yeah, right now I'm trying to figure out how you're even supposed to give anyone channel ops without a race condition if there are no service. do you have to set a ban on their nick!user@host, then wait until that propagates to every server, then give them channel ops with a full nick!user@host, then remove the ban? < 1623950499 32980 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-91.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or are channel ops only supposed to connect from IP addresses that they use alone or control the identd so that nobody else can fake their hostmask? but I don't think the serviceless IRC servers care about their identd. < 1623950682 111218 :immibis_!~immibis@62.156.144.218 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1623950707 690199 :immibis_!~immibis@62.156.144.218 JOIN #esolangs * :realname > 1623950983 144098 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Qoibl14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84641&oldid=84563 5* 03Toxinite 5* (+90) 10 < 1623952326 850959 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1623952927 157757 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1623953180 610030 :Guest5!~Guest5@2a00:23c5:fc95:bc01:ed88:5825:a65f:cf58 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest5 < 1623953276 678038 :Guest5!~Guest5@2a00:23c5:fc95:bc01:ed88:5825:a65f:cf58 QUIT :Client Quit < 1623953604 198266 :fizzie[m]!~fizziezem@2001:470:69fc:105::3727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: IME, I feel mostly that was dealt with by per-channel bots that handled giving ops in response to a password (sent via private messages). < 1623953655 329199 :fizzie[m]!~fizziezem@2001:470:69fc:105::3727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IRCnet does do the "~ in username means no identd" thing. < 1623953698 637613 :fizzie[m]!~fizziezem@2001:470:69fc:105::3727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And a lot of people did connect using Unix shell accounts hosted by either an ISP or a university, where spoofing identd would have been tricky. < 1623953788 401974 :fizzie[m]!~fizziezem@2001:470:69fc:105::3727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I seem to recall I had a runaway ircII script temporarily DoS the shell server of one of the smaller Finnish dialup ISPs, because they didn't really have any enforced resource limits on it. < 1623953917 217050 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1623954627 212673 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… > 1623954703 753815 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FolderCode14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84642&oldid=84428 5* 03Dominicentek 5* (+18) 10 > 1623954728 238528 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Column14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84643&oldid=84631 5* 03Dominicentek 5* (+18) 10 > 1623954799 236629 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07School14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84644&oldid=84636 5* 03AceKiron 5* (-46) 10/* Functionality */ < 1623954828 143512 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1623954888 72992 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03CodyNinja1 5* 10New user account < 1623954921 681049 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Client Quit < 1623954971 60585 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-91.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie[m]: yes, but how do the ops give channel op to anyone withotu a face condition? < 1623954990 113787 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-91.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :if there is an identd for the whole public IP, then yes, then that works < 1623955024 85194 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-91.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I don't think that eg. my employer's NAT has an identd... I have never really tested it, I admit > 1623955152 715181 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07School14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84645&oldid=84644 5* 03AceKiron 5* (+526) 10/* Functionality */ < 1623955178 506685 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-91.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and yes, I know NATs weren't so common back when IRC was invented, and nobody used cryptography etc > 1623955432 129518 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07School14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84646&oldid=84645 5* 03AceKiron 5* (+110) 10/* Functionality */ < 1623955436 538629 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :good old IoT... Internet of Trust < 1623955463 699022 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`grWp freenode < 1623955465 801425 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :advertisement:Advertisement starts: have you heard about this hip and froopy 'net place called #esoteric? It is on freenode. Brought to you by The Board of Timeskewed Advertiesements. \ e:e is a freenode admin. e is not known to be an Agora player. \ freenode:The Realm of Freenode is our homeland. The Chännel dwells in it since... Uhm... Quite a few years ago? < 1623955519 246921 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :somehow, that entry on `e` is again true... < 1623955877 500430 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`learn Libera has always been our homeland. The Chännel has been dwelling in it since the beginning of time. Any rumors about another network called "freenode" are compleetely bogus. < 1623955881 171792 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Relearned 'libera': Libera has always been our homeland. The Chännel has been dwelling in it since the beginning of time. Any rumors about another network called "freenode" are compleetely bogus. < 1623955941 637979 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`slwd freenode//s=is=used to be=;s=dwells=dwelled= < 1623955944 228716 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :freenode//The Realm of Freenode used to be our homeland. The Chännel dwelled in it since... Uhm... Quite a few years ago? < 1623955980 612473 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`rm ../wisdom/e < 1623955982 912977 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No output. < 1623956014 757147 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :any guess whether "Advertiesements" is an intentional typo? < 1623956243 141702 :brainfunnel!~quassel@72.141.208.46.dyn.plus.net JOIN #esolangs brainfunnel :_sink < 1623956980 208042 :fizzie[m]!~fizziezem@2001:470:69fc:105::3727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think identd in general used to be much more prevalent. At least the shell servers I had accounts on were running it. < 1623957035 328039 :fizzie[m]!~fizziezem@2001:470:69fc:105::3727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, you were incentivized to run an identd by getting more permissive I:lines from ircds. < 1623957385 313924 :fizzie[m]!~fizziezem@2001:470:69fc:105::3727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Interesting, looks like at least two Finnish ISPs are still running (IRCnet) IRC servers; irc.elisa.fi and irc.nebula.fi. < 1623957799 136309 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1623957835 274090 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-91.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie[m]: hmm yes, that's true, I think I saw a MOTD on ircnet that says multi-user shell servers are allowed only if they run identd. < 1623957862 486885 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-91.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I will check my employer's ipv4 NAT when I'm in there, but I don't think they run identd < 1623957864 68397 :fizzie[m]!~fizziezem@2001:470:69fc:105::3727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: My guess is it's an unintentional typo, but I don't know for sure. < 1623957878 805470 :pikhq!sid394595@user/pikhq PRIVMSG #esolangs :i know irccloud runs an identd, but i imagine they're one of the few places that actually does < 1623957913 90555 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-91.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :pikhq: yes, but they're specifically a massive IRC proxy, not a generic NAT for the employees on which most people don't use IRC < 1623957927 966259 :fizzie[m]!~fizziezem@2001:470:69fc:105::3727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I no longer have an account on any shell server other than VPSes I personally administer. Feels slightly odd. :/ < 1623957949 961297 :pikhq!sid394595@user/pikhq PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah -- it's one of the use cases that identd still makes _some_ sense for < 1623958079 494862 :fizzie[m]!~fizziezem@2001:470:69fc:105::3727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This Matrix/Libera bridge app server doesn't seem to run an identd, so everyone's got a ~ on it. < 1623958110 61642 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-91.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean I don't see how they could even run a meaningful identd, when they have a single wifi password < 1623958172 222323 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-91.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :they can know the identity of my work laptop, because that's a laptop owned by the employer, but anyone can also connect to the wifi from any other computer, and even the ethernet, ethernet just needs a bit more physical proximity < 1623958197 308943 :fizzie[m]!~fizziezem@2001:470:69fc:105::3727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can have a forwarding identd setup (oidentd at least supports that) for a NAT, but that's stretching the definition of "meaningful". < 1623958201 170815 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-91.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I normally connect through ethernet because I'm old-style, but I have used the wifi a few times < 1623958220 545548 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-91.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie[m]: yes, but then I can run an identd on my own laptop that lies anything, and so can the attacker < 1623958228 567245 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-91.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the attacker who wants to get the same hostmask that is < 1623958272 290583 :fizzie[m]!~fizziezem@2001:470:69fc:105::3727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've got fungot running on a (virtual) system that has a dedicated public IPv6 address but a NAT'd IPv4 one, so it's fungot!~fungot@... when connecting over IPv4 but fungot!fungot@... when connecting over IPv6. < 1623958272 810357 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie[m]: python's module system wreaks havoc with static compilation and doesn't have much practical value, and no registers, it has own scheme dialect which supports optional types. similar to dylan. < 1623958292 112383 :fizzie[m]!~fizziezem@2001:470:69fc:105::3727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Because I run it at home, and my ISP only gives out a single IPv4 address, unsurprisingly.) < 1623958338 771108 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-91.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I just talked to the sysadmin about how their SVN proxy is broken and doesn't forward file copies to the internal network, and it turns out the machine that handles that proxying runs some simple software that they can't configure to do the kind of URL rewriting that has two URLs in the same query < 1623958353 777286 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-91.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm actually kind of surprised that commits even work through that proxy < 1623958389 526728 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-91.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I sort of don't think that they would do identd forwarding, that would also require specific protocol parsing < 1623958412 321541 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-91.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the workaround is that I'll have to set up a VPN and use SVN through that by the way < 1623958447 339552 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-91.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie[m]: yeah, I also never tested whether the IPV6 is natted too < 1623958455 539622 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-91.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should check that too < 1623958664 559511 :fizzie[m]!~fizziezem@2001:470:69fc:105::3727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Also, while I'm no Python expert, I don't think what our channel mascot said about the Python module system is true. Or coherent.) < 1623958760 632983 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-91.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, the module system isn't particularly relevant for why python is too dynamic to be typeable statically < 1623958817 594450 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1623958907 569865 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-91.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :although ruby is even worse < 1623959143 177120 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-91.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :python is at least sensible enough to not allow just arbitrarily redefining the methods of built-in types. but it does allow redefining builtin functions. < 1623959752 488901 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.138 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1623960352 150155 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river JOIN #esolangs river :river < 1623960404 566905 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a02:8106:215:3300:e7ad:5ab7:4ea0:e177 JOIN #esolangs * :Thelie < 1623960842 455863 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.138 JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv < 1623962810 243235 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Animated tiles on Game Boy is mentioned. Does it support bank switching graphics? I can look. I know that NES/Famicom does have bankswitching graphics, I will look about Game Boy > 1623963014 593397 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84647&oldid=84620 5* 03CodyNinja1 5* (+208) 10/* Introductions */ < 1623963078 489706 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1623963286 740042 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:CodyNinja114]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84648 5* 03CodyNinja1 5* (+41) 10Created page with "Hello i am codyninja1 and i like esolangs" > 1623963450 325845 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UToober14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84649 5* 03CodyNinja1 5* (+1842) 10Created page with "

UToober

UToober is a [[Brainfuck|Brainfrain]]-like programming language created by [[User:CodyNinja1|CodyNinja1]]

Usage and Commands

{| class="wikitable" |+..." > 1623963488 20736 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UToober14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84650&oldid=84649 5* 03CodyNinja1 5* (-17) 10remove the other header > 1623963643 612603 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:CodyNinja114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84651&oldid=84648 5* 03CodyNinja1 5* (+43) 10 < 1623963654 228967 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :If there are only two frames of animated tiles, then it could work: https://gbdev.io/pandocs/Tile_Data.html > 1623964637 902923 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UToober14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84652&oldid=84650 5* 03CodyNinja1 5* (+1117) 10 > 1623964760 375602 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UToober14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84653&oldid=84652 5* 03CodyNinja1 5* (+39) 10 > 1623964867 35408 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UToober14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84654&oldid=84653 5* 03CodyNinja1 5* (+16) 10 < 1623965237 181100 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-91.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I think so, but only a few tiles are animated, and it seems like you'd have to duplicate the whole tile table as many times as animation frames, which would be a lot of unnecessarey ROM space. I expect there's some way around that. < 1623965285 696377 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-91.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can change the pointer for the tile table in any case, and games often change them between different levels < 1623965301 712036 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-91.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so like grass levels have grass tiles, while volcano levels have lava tiles < 1623965518 226579 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN #esolangs oerjan :Ørjan Johansen < 1623966480 502777 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 JOIN #esolangs salpynx :[https://kiwiirc.com] salpynx < 1623967029 214446 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :NES/Famicom also is limited to two frames in a similar way, but NES/Famicom also can use external video memory, so using that it is possible to add more frames. < 1623968156 313061 :[O_O]!~Guest86@93-38-48-227.ip69.fastwebnet.it QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1623968407 85721 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no TOPIC #esolangs :Welcome to the liberated church of esoteric programming, proselytization, propagation, and pronunciation! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://logs.esolangs.org/ < 1623968429 685929 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: this should clear it up hth < 1623968452 378823 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1623968539 212723 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? proselytization < 1623968540 978891 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :proselytization? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1623968904 329812 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is the topic meant to exclude amateurs? < 1623968946 516615 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :amateurs are fine as long as they believe in the cause hth < 1623968963 334193 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :(also, all i did was add a comma < 1623968964 915549 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :) < 1623969061 860966 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The comma does make a positive difference. Just noticed all the pros for the first time. < 1623969127 371005 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a02:8106:215:3300:e7ad:5ab7:4ea0:e177 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1623969555 50931 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` wn proselytize -over | grep '^1' # I wish lambdabot's @wn was more concise and/or the WordNet CLI more friendly < 1623969556 124863 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :1. proselytize, proselytise -- (convert to another faith or religion) < 1623969612 87018 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 QUIT :Quit: tech_exorcist < 1623969612 831013 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :^show < 1623969612 900873 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2 8ball rreree rerere botsnack bf < 1623969618 740962 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :^show rot13 < 1623969618 805065 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :,[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+14<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>>+5[<-5>-]<2-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+ < 1623969632 373681 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Elegant. < 1623969648 211661 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: ^show doesn't reverse the run length encoding tdnh < 1623969684 341994 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, I realized that as I was writing it, but it seemed to hard to describe what I actually meant. < 1623969687 345292 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway, it could. < 1623969762 814126 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, you can tell that program was "compiled" (translated?) before that one bug was fixed, because it contains ">>" instead of ">2". < 1623969779 171809 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :ic < 1623969870 659027 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :i'll just excuse you because you were in the matrix at the time < 1623969880 335249 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :was it solid? < 1623969891 84507 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1623969922 463433 :fizzie[m]!~fizziezem@2001:470:69fc:105::3727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's been a bit flaky, but that's probably because I picked the most experimental thing there was. < 1623969946 256589 :fizzie[m]!~fizziezem@2001:470:69fc:105::3727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, my phone started saying "bong" every time I got highlighted, which was a bit much. < 1623970021 264058 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, fungot's response to that log message was eerily close to on topic < 1623970021 553738 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: i could make a " who want's to be millionaire program". here's the complete context of the stuff on esolang's like that, you're probably doing something wrong < 1623970036 416395 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :until it got into the fnords < 1623970083 904201 :Hooloovoo!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION is wearing a "bob" dobbs mask < 1623970181 440622 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm, we definitely need a picture of a superintelligent shade of blue with a "bob" dobbs mask < 1623970313 611368 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` $(🌱 2 6) -s 🌱 $HACKENV/bin/seed < 1623970316 812455 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No output. < 1623970427 447006 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`seed 4 30029010 < 1623970428 539081 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :True < 1623970497 936117 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that worked. `seed is a little more usable than `🌱 < 1623970537 38756 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :^wiki seed < 1623970537 100044 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/seed < 1623970576 68167 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :^wiki anything, even something that doesn't have an article about it (just checking) < 1623970576 144689 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/anything, even something that doesn't have an article about it (just checking) < 1623970600 935195 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :^show wiki < 1623970601 18298 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :+15[>+4>+7>+7>+8<4-]>3-.>-4..<2+7.+3.<-2.-11..>2-3.<.>2-5.-3.<-4.>+2.<+6.<.<-.>3+.+3.<.<2+.>+4.>+2.+2.-2.<2.,[.,] < 1623970606 161045 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean, it could have hardly be anything else, but you never know. < 1623970628 172846 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :From the format, pretty sure the `https://esolangs.org/wiki/` prefix came out of bf_txtgen. < 1623971376 985749 :Hooloovoo!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan, http://hooloovoo.blue/files/dobbs.jpg < 1623971389 134167 :Hooloovoo!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's one of the more creepy possible masks to have? < 1623972025 915473 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hooloovoo++ < 1623972062 438067 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :although you don't look that su... i mean, blue. < 1623972325 734148 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :`cbt karma < 1623972326 636770 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​#!/bin/sh \ echo "$1 has $(${HACKENV-/hackenv}/lib/karma "$1") karma." < 1623972345 789 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :`t cat lib/karma < 1623972346 87945 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​#!/bin/sh \ count () { \ hg log --template '{desc}\n' | \ egrep '^<[^>]*> karma\'$1 | \ fgrep -vix "<$2> karma$1 $2" | \ cut -d' ' -f3 | \ fgrep -cix "$2" \ } \ plus=$(count + "$1") \ minus=$(count - "$1") \ echo $(($plus-$minus)) < 1623972516 698990 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :`karma Hooloovoo < 1623972524 979710 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hooloovoo has 0 karma. < 1623972530 454953 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :`karma Hooloovoo < 1623972538 266968 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hooloovoo has 0 karma. < 1623972545 701560 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :`karma oerjan < 1623972552 923368 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan has 0 karma. < 1623972555 609859 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :`karma oerjan < 1623972562 906657 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan has 0 karma. < 1623972588 394691 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm who _has_ HackEso karma < 1623972594 435253 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :`karma fizzie < 1623972603 2634 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie has 2 karma. < 1623972606 531062 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :`karma fizzie < 1623972621 550027 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie has 0 karma. < 1623972627 29981 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :thoughts so. < 1623972685 771443 :Hooloovoo!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :`karma < 1623972692 870936 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​ has 0 karma. < 1623972709 623010 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :`karma+ Hooloovoo < 1623972730 207328 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hooloovoo now has 1 karma. < 1623972749 535239 :Hooloovoo!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan++ < 1623972756 541385 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :@karma < 1623972756 850593 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :You have a karma of 1 < 1623972771 883836 :Hooloovoo!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :@karma < 1623972772 193923 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :You have a karma of 1 < 1623972782 414254 :Hooloovoo!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :cool < 1623972837 782317 :Riviera!Riviera@user/riviera JOIN #esolangs Riviera ::) < 1623973032 220040 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` interp "befunge $(seed 4 141745954)@" <<< '20 3' < 1623973033 893362 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :23 < 1623973087 197862 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :`karma+ nakilon < 1623973102 147130 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon now has 1 karma. < 1623973169 73744 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can't the `! befunge interp to accept parameters to ignore unrecognised commands, and the source seed add program doesn't terminate with `@` neatly. < 1623973177 698092 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :it takes him 15 seconds to increment > 1623973214 487704 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UToober14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84655&oldid=84654 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+96) 10Cats/wikiheaders < 1623973215 185945 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :22.5hrs estimated to locate a cleanly terminating befunge program `&&+.@` > 1623973238 103270 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UToober14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84656&oldid=84655 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+1) 10/* Interpreter */ Fxi tpyo < 1623973251 120339 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The counting of karma, the way HackEso does it, involves looking through the entire history of 12k or so revisions. < 1623973282 688901 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :A typically #esolangs-y combination of elegance and whatever the word for the opposite is. < 1623973664 523199 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.138 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1623974103 566995 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` hg log -k karma --template '{desc}\n' | paste < 1623974106 311753 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.24635 < 1623974141 826660 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` hg log -k '> karma' --template '{desc}\n' | paste < 1623974144 764424 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.30567 < 1623974177 73348 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :much better < 1623974246 369699 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :`sled ../lib/karma//3s/log/log -k '> karma' / < 1623974248 765831 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​../lib/karma//#!/bin/sh \ count () { \ hg log -k '> karma' --template '{desc}\n' | \ egrep '^<[^>]*> karma\'$1 | \ fgrep -vix "<$2> karma$1 $2" | \ cut -d' ' -f3 | \ fgrep -cix "$2" \ } \ plus=$(count + "$1") \ minus=$(count - "$1") \ echo $(($plus-$minus)) < 1623974257 129017 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :`karma oerjan < 1623974261 378557 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan has 0 karma. < 1623974277 846250 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :`karma Hooloovoo < 1623974282 32196 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hooloovoo has 1 karma. < 1623974341 69053 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 JOIN #esolangs delta23 :delta23__