00:00:20 <oerjan> it still does "hg log" twice, but well, premature optimization.
00:03:04 <zzo38> Does the log software support multiple channels on a single connection separately?
00:09:45 <fizzie> It does now. Specifically, it has two logging modes, a "raw" log that's just all messages sent and received over the IRC connection, and a per-channel log (which is configured for each channel) which contains only messages relevant for that channel.
00:09:54 <fizzie> The idea being that I wasn't quite sure there wouldn't be any bugs in the logic of selecting which messages to log (especially nick change and quit messages, which you only get once if you have any channels in common, and which don't explicitly specify which channel they're for), so in theory the raw log will allow back-filling the channel logs if such a bug is discovered.
00:10:05 <fizzie> Although I haven't actually written any code to do such backfilling. And both kind of logs use a binary format (protocol buffers) rather than text files, which not everyone might like.
00:22:44 <zzo38> Aren't the logs for each channel converted into three formats though?
00:28:29 <fizzie> Yes, but it happens on-the-fly by the web server. There's just one "on-disk" format, and it's none of those three.
00:39:36 <zzo38> Are you able to set it up on the IRC channel that they have granted me on here? (If I later move it to my own IRC server, I will have the server make its own logs, but currently it is Libera) (I will give you permission to change the topic message if you agree)
00:45:55 <fizzie> Sure, if you want, and as long as it doesn't matter that the logs are served at https://logs.esolangs.org/. I can either include it on the list of the index page or leave it "private" (as in, public if you guess the URL). Oh, and not today, because I'm heading off now (but just ask me again tomorrow).
00:46:10 <zzo38> OK, I will ask again tomorrow
00:52:48 <b_jonas> oerjan: nobody has karma, because the karma script mostly greps the logs for ++ and -- in lines that don't necessarily invoke HackEso, but HackEso no longer has the channel logs in its file system
00:53:00 <b_jonas> the `karma+ commands are an afterthought
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00:55:54 <b_jonas> fizzie: wait, you said that the company donated you hosting the esolang.org server for the purpose of supporting this channel, which is why you don't run fungot on it. how can you make logs for other channels then?
00:55:55 <fungot> b_jonas: fnord, fnord, and that was 3.5 times as slow as using arithmetic-shift, by the way
00:56:39 <b_jonas> yes, fungot, you're proving my point, you don't contribute to this channel
00:56:39 <fungot> b_jonas: so you agree that when you aren't doing it without map can already handle that.
00:59:17 <zzo38> O, maybe it is a valid point. Well, we can see tomorrow, I suppose
01:00:45 <oerjan> b_jonas: did you even look at the current karma script twh
01:02:04 <b_jonas> oerjan: no, I might be misremembering this
01:03:09 <oerjan> it _used_ to work like what you say, but it was all changed to be based on mercury revisions instead
01:04:20 <oerjan> also, sorry for that phrasing. i really don't want to use that kind of trolling rhetoric but your message was too tempting.
01:04:27 <b_jonas> oerjan: ok, then that explains why nobody has karma, nobody will use an explicit HackEso statement instead of just saying someuser++
01:04:44 <oerjan> b_jonas: well lambdabot keeps track of those.
01:04:58 <b_jonas> now I see that revision 0 already doesn't have that, but I know the revision history available on HackEso's repo is truncated
01:05:07 <b_jonas> oerjan: lambdabot still does? nice
01:06:15 <perlbot> b_jonas: someconcept has karma of 1
01:06:45 <b_jonas> perlbot karma cdHZvFsHtbZd
01:06:45 <perlbot> b_jonas: cdHZvFsHtbZd has karma of 1
01:08:07 <b_jonas> I'll note that perlbot has a native plugin for this, you can't implement it as a macro because you can't listen to statements not addressed to the bot
01:08:21 <b_jonas> same for HackEso now, and I think lambdabot
01:09:06 <b_jonas> I guess this karma concept is a meme that many bot makers implement
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03:43:14 <esolangs> [[Talk:Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84657&oldid=66182 * YamTokTpaFa * (+749) /* looping command description confuses me. */ new section
03:53:13 <int-e> b_jonas: lambdabot has also "archived" a lot of partial brainfuck programs for that reason
03:54:14 <int-e> to some extent that's unavoidable; [-] is a valid IRC nick
04:05:55 <int-e> actually, let me do *something* about that karma
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04:09:50 <int-e> pfft, tools you never miss episode 283: no mc on the lambdabot host
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04:13:46 <int-e> oerjan: it had an entry for (>------>+++++++)*4>([+++++++[-]]>)*3([+++++++[-]]>)[-------[+]]>[+++++++[-]]>[+++++++++++++++++++[-]]>[+++++++[-]]>[--------------[+]]>[+++++++[-]]>[+++++++[-]]>[++++++++++++++++[-]]>[----------[+]]>[-------[+]]>[++++++++++++++++++++++++++[-]]>[----------------[+]]>[-------------------------[+]]>[-------------[+]]>[++++++++++++++++[-]]>[++++++++++++++++++++++[-]]>[--...
04:23:35 <oerjan> that looks like bfjoust
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05:45:44 <imode> what're the ( and ) chars.
05:47:01 <oerjan> imode: that's why i think it's bfjoust
05:47:22 <oerjan> (...)*n means repeat n times there
05:48:59 <oerjan> hm, except one isn't followed by a number
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05:57:27 <int-e> IIRC the () group, and you can also write stuff like +*10 if you want to replicate just one operation
06:14:06 <esolangs> [[UToober]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84658&oldid=84656 * CodyNinja1 * (+92)
06:17:05 <esolangs> [[UToober]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84659&oldid=84658 * CodyNinja1 * (+18)
06:35:49 <int-e> I've found a new (to me) silly corner of Unicode: spinning chess pieces, like 🨄🨈🨙🨝🨲🩃🩇
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06:46:39 <esolangs> [[UToober]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84660&oldid=84659 * CodyNinja1 * (+134) /* Hello, World! */
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06:53:43 <myname> mc is way inferior to our lord and saviour ranger
06:55:07 <shachaf> mc() { mkdir -- "$1" && cd -- "$1"; }
06:58:32 <int-e> myname: I really don't use it a lot. But when I want to have a look at every file in one directory, it's quite convenient to just hit F3 on each of them
06:59:21 <myname> ranger has a preview panel
06:59:41 <myname> https://nongnu.org/ranger/screenshots/ranger-screenshot_highlighted-code-preview.png
06:59:53 <int-e> But I'm used to mc. There's really no right or wrong about these things, by and large, it's familiarity.
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07:00:47 <myname> sure, i'm just surprised by how unknown it is, but that's probably because mc is way older
07:01:22 <int-e> Right, there is an element of carbon dating to this too.
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07:16:29 <esolangs> [[UToober]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84661&oldid=84660 * CodyNinja1 * (-2)
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07:33:13 <int-e> myname: Oh, fwiw, because I took a long time to remember: mc has a 'Quck view" feature that's basically a file preview.
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08:18:33 <b_jonas> "file previewer" sounds like a decent idea but these days it's just a fricking disaster waiting to happen when your final program that you use to open openoffice/pdf/html/whatever is more secure so malware targets the buggy previewer which is full of plugins and gets less scrutiny than the big applications.
08:19:25 <b_jonas> I don't support it. have a photo previewer program if you wish, but not a general file previewer with hundreds of plugins without choosing a whitelist
08:19:37 <b_jonas> s/plugins/plugins preinstalled/
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09:51:00 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Redoverflow * New user account
09:58:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84662&oldid=84647 * Redoverflow * (+371) /* Introductions */
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11:25:58 <fizzie> zzo38: Hmm, I guess b_jonas has a fair point. I can think of two workarounds:
11:26:01 <fizzie> 1) Given that there's justification for the esolangs bot to run in the first place, and because it takes negligible additional resources to make it log an extra channel (unless maybe an incredibly popular one), if the channel's at least remotely linked to esolangery in some fashion (maybe just that there's some overlap in audience), I think I could rationalize adding it on that basis.
11:26:07 <fizzie> (I'm aware that sort of reasoning would probably stretch to fungot as well, but let's skip that for now.)
11:26:10 <fizzie> 2) I've been thinking of running a "backup" instance of the logging software somewhere else where I don't have to consider esolangs-relevancy in the first place, and I could make *that* log the additional channel too. I just wasn't planning to run a second copy of the logs web serving part, which would take a bit more setup, especially for stalker mode.
11:26:16 <fizzie> What's this channel about?
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11:37:31 <fizzie> int-e: Those spinning chess pieces might be a replacement of the standard /-\| ASCII spinner for a console program that's chess-themed.
11:38:03 <fizzie> (Although I can only see them in my browser, which might be considered a drawback.)
11:38:44 <fizzie> https://wiki.tcl-lang.org/page/Text+Spinner <- a bunch more Unicodey alternatives, but no chess pieces.
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11:53:46 <wib_jonas> fizzie: ok, I take that as encouragement saying that I should run a channel logging bot, even if it's on my home machine that isn't always on.
11:53:59 <wib_jonas> Thank you for pushing me to do useful things.
11:54:10 <wib_jonas> There's also a lot of websites that I should download but I'm too lazy to.
12:00:58 <fizzie> Well FWIW I don't think we *need* a high-availability logging solution, it's just one of those things that would be done just because it could be done.
12:02:50 <fizzie> ISTR GregorR's codu.org logs did have a backup bot which picked up the slack when the primary one was down, though. Or if not that, then one of the others.
12:03:02 <fizzie> Yeah, glogbot vs. glogbackup.
12:03:09 <[O_O> why the need of a backup?
12:03:21 -!- [O_O has changed nick to [O_O].
12:04:46 <fizzie> I thought I just finished saying there is no "need" as such.
12:06:36 <[O_O]> yes fizzie sorry, I wanted just to support your point, I also see no sense in that
12:07:24 <fizzie> Then again, sense has not traditionally been all that high up the priority list of things constructed for this channel. Would you agree, fungot?
12:07:24 <fungot> fizzie: 0 1 110 111... dictionary.com has it...
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12:10:46 <[O_O]> heheh, as an outsider, sometimes is difficult to decipher or easy to misunderstand your exchanges, I see how in thousands of years separate groups of humans developed completely different and incompatible means for communication heheh
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12:17:10 <fizzie> Fair, we've already come this far in a bit less than two decades. (Though fungot is not quite that old yet.)
12:17:10 <fungot> fizzie: not exactly. my body has remained in this armchair and has, i _think_ fshift freset are ideal for those reasons.
12:17:33 <fizzie> Eerily on-topic as usual.
12:25:22 <[O_O]> have you ever met IRL?
12:25:38 <Taneb> I think some subsets of us have met in person
12:25:49 <Taneb> But we've not had a big convention or anything
12:25:58 <Taneb> (I met int-e once, for example)
12:29:15 <HackEso> 925) <fizzie> The other day (well, the other week) my wife was annoyed with me because she had a dream where I had gotten us plane tickets into a #esoteric meet somewhere in the middle of Greenland in the winter, without asking her first. Plus she wasn't really interested in a #esoteric meet at all, let alone one in Greenland, let alone one in Greenland in wintertime. (I think it's kind of cold there?)
12:29:39 <fizzie> That never happened either.
12:30:32 <wib_jonas> "why the need of a backup?" ahahahahahaha!
12:30:49 <[O_O]> hehehe why is that so funny?
12:31:04 <[O_O]> I must miss something about the topic heheh
12:31:45 <wib_jonas> fizzie: is it actually less then two decades? I thought it was more than two decades now, but I'm never sure when #esoteric started
12:32:11 <fizzie> wib_jonas: December 2002, so not quite two decades yet.
12:32:56 <wib_jonas> will we have a 20 year old celebration? not necessarily in Greenland. New Zealand would be more appropriate, but I think they might still have travel limitations, so I'd prefer somewhere in Europe
12:33:21 <fizzie> http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/2002-q4 + search for `#esoteric` for how it all got started.
12:33:34 <wib_jonas> ``` : with a birthday; ? cake # with 20 candles, obviously
12:33:36 <HackEso> The Enrichment Center is required to remind you that you will be baked, and then there will be cake.
12:33:36 <[O_O]> thanks for the link
12:34:35 <fizzie> Also shows how we were very, *very* briefly #esoterica on EFnet, before becoming #esoteric on OPN/freenode.
12:37:07 <Taneb> So, who's up for the Esoteric IRC bidecennial celebration in Nuuk Decemeber 2022?
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12:38:36 <fizzie> I don't think I've met anyone still on the channel. Oh, except maybe we did work out that Deewiant and I did unknowingly "meet" (in the sense of physical proximity in a single-digit number of metres) due to studying at the same university around the same time.
12:39:10 <fizzie> Actually, maybe we've actually-met too, looking at these logs. Well, anyway.
12:40:16 <Deewiant_> I don't think we ever spoke to each other but I think I saw you from a distance once or something
12:41:17 <fizzie> Yeah, https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2012-01-20.html#lUc implies that but also refers to an earlier occasion, so it must have happened at least twice.
12:42:14 <fizzie> (I do a lot of figuring out of "when did this and that happen" based on IRC logs.)
12:45:23 <[O_O]> IMO irc logs are scary, 20 years long, immortalized public discussion, sometimes I think the world was better without personal computers or written word, from this point of view came the question about backups :)
12:46:20 <[O_O]> if you make the meeting in Italy, I will introduce you Gastone Garziera, one of the engineers who made the first personal computer, the Olivetti Programma 101, he also designed its language
12:46:37 <[O_O]> he sparked in me the passion for language design.
12:47:13 <[O_O]> he is one of my best friends, although he is 80, I will meet him soon for a good lunch
12:48:33 <fizzie> Public logs are a bit of a controversial subject, yes. But it's what we've got.
12:48:49 <fizzie> They do make for good chatbot training corpora and general text analysis subject matter, though.
12:50:38 <fizzie> I think I did some experiments on author classicifaction with a friend on #esoteric logs (in addition to Project Gutenberg books and the EU parliament speeches) for a course once. But I don't remember how well they worked, in the precision-recall sense.
12:50:50 <[O_O]> the english page of the Olivetti Programma 101 is full of lies, it is not a calculator, it is a computer
12:52:42 <wib_jonas> fizzie: yes, that too, that is that part that motivates me to try to label images on Wikimedia Commons with appropriate categories and descriptions, even images I didn't take
12:53:07 <wib_jonas> though I am more interested in the kind of photos that I would want to take, or photos that I did take but don't upload because there's already a good one of the same topic
12:54:31 <wib_jonas> and yes, there are some pairs of regulars here who have unambiguously met in real life, but I haven't met any of them, at least I don't know that I have
12:55:14 <fizzie> Heh, I haven't updated https://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/ since 2016, but at least the existing visualizations seem to still work.
13:02:20 <wib_jonas> fizzie: thanks, that mailing thread does give a specific enough thread for a birthday? should we teach it to /hackenv/wisdom/birthday ?
13:03:10 <Taneb> 9th of December I think
13:04:09 <HackEso> Libera has always been our homeland. The Chännel has been dwelling in it since the beginning of time. Any rumors about another network called "freenode" are compleetely bogus.
13:04:42 <wib_jonas> should I add the date after "the beginning of time"?
13:06:19 <wib_jonas> 2002 is perfect by the way, I always think that 2002 is the best year to mark when the modern internet and digital typography has finally spread enough to be accessible to anyone and change everyone's life, at least here in Hungary.
13:06:57 <wib_jonas> I would also want to say that that's when everyone started to have mobile phones, but in fact I had had a mobile phone for years by 2002, so nope
13:08:53 <wib_jonas> digital typography has clearly existed before that, but most professional books were still published by traditional typography typeset by typographers who usually don't understand the material, rather than by the authors, or by grad students of the author if they really don't like computers
13:09:30 <wib_jonas> and the internet existed before 2002 too, and I knew it existed and even used it a little, but it was expensive to connect so most people didn't have the internet.
13:10:09 <wib_jonas> it was a gradual process, but I want to put a date on it to be specific, so I choose 2002
13:10:31 <Taneb> I have a cousin three weeks older than me. When my cousin was born, my uncle sent a letter to my dad about it. By the time I was born, they both had email.
13:11:14 <wib_jonas> my lies for children will say that before 2002, nobody had digital typography or internet or mobile phones, and after 2002 they will, and that if you keep sucking on your thumb your teeth will look ugly like mine and your thumbs will be of unequal length like mine, so don't do that, it's a dirty habit
13:12:02 <wib_jonas> Taneb: I was raised with washable diapers; by the time my brother was born, my parents had access to use once diapers, so I can put a clear date to that
13:12:20 <wib_jonas> Taneb: nice, then you can clearly claim that email was a Tanebvention
13:13:06 <Taneb> It might be a Taneb'scousinvention
13:15:54 <wib_jonas> 2002 is when I graduated from high school, that's why it's such a convenient date
13:16:29 <Taneb> 2002 was when I turned eight
13:17:21 <wib_jonas> in fact now I think of it, my lies to children will also say that 2002 was when the plastic revolution happened, that before 2002 we drank Coca Cola from 0.2 l glass bottles and made sparkling soda water at home from metal cartridges and tap water, but after 2002 we drank Coca Cola from 0.5 l plastic bottles and brought mineral water home in 2 l
13:17:22 <wib_jonas> plastic bottles. It's not even too big of a lie.
13:17:58 <wib_jonas> I will admit that nylon hoses started way earlier though
13:18:44 <wib_jonas> but I can say that nylon and rubber and hard vinyl were basically the only plastics available, and even nylon was expensive and not yet used for bags
13:19:18 <wib_jonas> and that after 2002 we had soft vinyl (yes, it existed before that, but that's when it got cheap and ubiquitious), polypropilene (likewise), and PET
13:19:33 <wib_jonas> also cheap nylon for all sorts of bags
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13:21:20 <wib_jonas> I'm not sure about plexiglass. It was certainly used for expensive things like airplane windows and digital clocks before 2002, and something similar was used for corrective eyeglasses too, but there weren't tons of cheap LCDs for which we can look whether they had plexiglass or glass screens.
13:21:33 <wib_jonas> (admittedly very cheap LCD has neither, it has cheaper plastic covers)
13:22:02 <wib_jonas> wait, does cellulose for analog films count as a plastic?
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14:43:10 <Koen> how's it going?
14:45:11 <Koen> is that the famoux British understatement?
14:46:48 <Taneb> It's definitey British
14:46:55 <Taneb> Not sure whether it's understatement or not
14:57:37 <esolangs> [[Struffoli]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84663&oldid=83514 * Zero player rodent * (-60)
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15:09:37 <fizzie> I heard a Bill Bailey bit once riffing on the "not too bad" vs. the "great!" that US folks use instead.
15:11:00 <fizzie> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7d79Knc8p4
15:16:20 <Taneb> fizzie: that's a pretty good summary
15:19:05 <int-e> (admit it, it had to be said)
15:20:03 <[O_O]> https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/reverse-engineering-source-code-of-the-biontech-pfizer-vaccine/
15:20:06 <[O_O]> have you read this?
15:23:56 <[O_O]> From the perspective of someone very passionate about programming and computer science, it looks like an hazard to do such a thing, pass some very early experimental source to a machine you poorly understand, that should generate the expected output, being a matter of life and death
15:24:50 <Taneb> It's got a much more rigourous test suite than most software at least
15:25:48 <[O_O]> I think the article was written with the intent of reassuring, but to be did the opposite effect heh
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15:28:59 <[O_O]> in any case, interesting to see how logical constructs we build in software appear also in our own biological systems
15:30:03 <int-e> [O_O]: it's a cool article, and I don't know what's alarming about it?
15:31:17 <[O_O]> nothing alarming, he describes the process they have used to identify entities in code and how they hacked the cell to let the code be accepted
15:32:56 <int-e> It may be worrying *what else* one could do with that Ψ hack. But the Ψ will never be replicated by the body, so it's just another factor that ensures the mRNA doesn't stay around forever
15:33:56 <[O_O]> also, the repeated tail that's there to count how many times the thing can be executed...
15:34:17 <[O_O]> if there is a problem and the thing can be read too many times, you have blue screen of death
15:35:24 <esolangs> [[School]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84664&oldid=84646 * AceKiron * (+243)
15:35:57 <[O_O]> the is already a study in the public domain that makes a post-mortem on a vaccined corpse, it looks the spike protein was in all organs of the body, so at least in that case I suspect the trail did not work as expected
15:37:58 <int-e> I'll call that speculation
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15:45:02 <[O_O]> for sure it is, there is not enough data, and independent research to know
15:45:56 <[O_O]> in a decade there will be enough data to say for sure
15:47:38 <int-e> [O_O]: The thing is, in my very limited understanding *presence* of the spike protein everywhere (except probabvly the brain)... is kind of expected. AIUI it enters the blood stream, which is the main arena for immune response. So... it really comes down to quantities.
15:48:32 <[O_O]> sad to read here in Italy someone dying because of the vaccine every day, recently a young girl died, in the same region where I am a guy in his 50s died after a week of AZ, the family donated the organs, all out of liver and kidneys were totally destroyed, I think that technically is called multiple organ failure
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15:58:49 <[O_O]> so, they now told AZ should be done only to old people, but some young people did AZ so they now should do PFZ, and so mix the things, huge mess.
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16:01:29 <[O_O]> I mean, some young people did the first jab of AZ, but now AZ cannot be done to young, so who did already AZ will get PFZ as the second jab.
16:04:24 <int-e> allegedly that results in better immunization, little known about rissk
16:04:59 <Koen> mix all the things
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16:05:10 <Koen> I mixed the real virus and the Pfizer
16:05:22 <Koen> I'm told it results in strong and durable immunization
16:07:38 <[O_O]> also my mother did pfizer, for now her hair are of the same color
16:08:19 <[O_O]> she did not have any big side effect
16:09:25 <[O_O]> here the vaccination campaign went quite smooth, 2 italians on 3 got at least a jab
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17:12:42 <Koen> pfizer changed your mother's hair colour?
17:23:53 <[O_O]> nono "for now he hair are of the same color" was a stupid joke about unkown potential future side effects, nothing changed, no big side effects
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17:32:10 <zzo38> fizzie: The channel is #freeheromesh which is about the puzzle game engine (I supose it might be arguable that the preprocessor especially has some relevance for esoteric programming, although these kind of puzzle games are also those that some people on here have interest in similar things; I don't know if any of that counts).
17:33:59 <zzo38> It is OK with me to host the logs on the same domain, or on a different domain; either way is acceptable to me
17:34:11 <imode> I almost wish it'd change my hair color.
17:36:13 <zzo38> fizzie: O, also I do not expect there to be a huge number of messages in that channel
17:53:18 <esolangs> [[Column]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84665&oldid=84643 * Dominicentek * (+0) Fixed an typo, "esoretic" to "esoteric"
17:57:52 <esolangs> [[Entropy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84666&oldid=83578 * Truttle1 * (+46) /* FizzBuzz */ Fixed the indentation a bit
17:58:11 <[O_O]> that "esoretic" typo is very funny
18:00:23 <zzo38> fizzie: Also, the logs should be publicly listed in the topic message, so either tell me the URL once it is set up, or add it by yourself (if I have done it correctly, you should have access)
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18:05:26 <fizzie> zzo38: Right. Maybe I could just add it to the existing bot, and if it somehow becomes a problem (very unlikely), we can re-think. The URL would likely be https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-freeheromesh/ -- I'll take a look at the configuration in a bit, i just need to commit a lot of recent changes I've made first to keep them separate.
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18:16:41 <b_jonas> hmm... I encouraged [O_O] to stay on #esolangs because they were talking about a bytecode compiler for a toy language. I didn't expect this.
18:17:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: wait a moment, aren't you already hosting an always on computer with a web server? why do you need fizzie's help for the IRC logs?
18:17:59 <b_jonas> maybe you don't have the disk space or something
18:19:04 <fizzie> All of #esoteric's 20 years of logs takes up 150 megabytes or so; it's not a very storage-intensive use case. I imagined it was just about the convenience of having a thing that does the logging and the serving and the formatting?
18:19:47 <Koen> and here 3hours on AndChat browsing irc from my smartphone takes 60Mb
18:19:55 <Koen> wtf is this app storing
18:20:12 <zzo38> It is not always on; sometimes there is power out, internet problem, being shut off for cleaning or needing rebooting, etc. (If I later host the IRC myself, then I will have it hosting logs myself too.) Also, this allows that in case there are multiple logs being kept in case one doesn't work sometimes.
18:23:04 <fizzie> Koen: To be fair, it's ~570M uncompressed. But still.
18:24:12 <Koen> 570M * 3h / 20y / 60M is still a pretty small number
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18:32:22 <b_jonas> zzo38: ah thanks, that explains it
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18:35:53 <arseniiv> I wanted to edit that to “how is #esoteric today” afterwards
18:36:28 * APic is fine, thanks
18:37:03 <arseniiv> (as they say, old habits die promptly and new habits do the indistinguishable)
18:37:19 <fizzie> "Not too bad." (I'm trying to integrate to the local culture, and as discussed just recently, that's what you're supposed to say here.)
18:37:48 <arseniiv> what measure do you use when integrating?
18:39:04 <arseniiv> (though approximating integrals over culture sounds more like applied statistics)
18:40:13 <fizzie> Or Seldonian psychohistory, perhaps.
18:46:52 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84667&oldid=83887 * Redoverflow * (+32)
18:49:08 <[O_O]> sorry for bothering guys
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18:58:10 <HackEso> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperenchilada about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. Currently located in the Atlantis Exclusion Zone.
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19:08:39 <HackEso> Libera has always been our homeland. The Chännel has been dwelling in it since the beginning of time. Any rumors about another network called "freenode" are compleetely bogus.
19:09:00 <HackEso> The Realm of Freenode used to be our homeland. The Chännel dwelled in it since... Uhm... Quite a few years ago?
19:09:07 <esolangs> [[Esolangs (irc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84668&oldid=83621 * Fizzie * (-486) Remove the bits that are no longer relevant.
19:10:07 <esolangs> [[Fungot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84669&oldid=67852 * Fizzie * (+3) Also moved.
19:10:11 <esolangs> [[Bitbot]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84670 * Toxinite * (+1871) Created page with "==Overview== '''Bitbot''' is an esolang created on the 18th of June, 2021 by [[User:Toxinite]]. Bitbot programs are used to control a data pointer in an infinite 2d grid of bi..."
19:11:33 <esolangs> [[HackEso]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84671&oldid=67581 * Fizzie * (+3) Also moved.
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19:18:22 <esolangs> [[UNITE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84672 * Redoverflow * (+1292) Created page with "'''UNITE''' is a pretty small esolang with a little to no purpose. ==Overview== UNITE only consists of two commands, which are explained in the table below. {| class="wikita..."
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19:23:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84673&oldid=84628 * B jonas * (+121) /* IRC */
19:30:43 <esolangs> [[UToober]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84674&oldid=84661 * CodyNinja1 * (+53) added the "EDITORNOTE" instruction
19:31:20 <esolangs> [[UToober]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84675&oldid=84674 * CodyNinja1 * (+64) added the extra line
19:31:46 <esolangs> [[UToober]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84676&oldid=84675 * CodyNinja1 * (+80) added the other extra line
19:34:03 <esolangs> [[UToober]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84677&oldid=84676 * CodyNinja1 * (+0) oops
19:34:54 <esolangs> [[UToober]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84678&oldid=84677 * CodyNinja1 * (+0) im so dumb lmao
19:37:51 <esolangs> [[UToober]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84679&oldid=84678 * CodyNinja1 * (+87) added the inf. loop program
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19:46:48 <esolangs> [[UToober]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84680&oldid=84679 * CodyNinja1 * (+755)
19:57:26 <b_jonas> so with this covid thing, I sometimes work from home. every time I have to do that, I pack up the work laptop in my bag, bring it home, put the laptop and accessories onto my desk, plug the docking station into the laptop, plug the power supply to the docking station, plug the power supply to the mains, hit the power button, see that the power led lights up, plug the keyboard into the docking station,
19:57:32 <b_jonas> plug the wireless mouse dongle to the laptop, turn on the wireless mouse,
19:57:57 <b_jonas> press keys on the keyboard, move the mouse, press keys on the keyboard, move the mouse, wonder why there's no image on the screen, I check that the power light is still on, I wonder again why there's no image on the screen.
19:58:16 <b_jonas> it's because I DIDN'T CONNECT THE HDMI CABLE TO THE DOCKING STATION, YOU IDIOT.
19:58:20 <b_jonas> it's the same thing every darned time
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19:58:49 <b_jonas> this covid thing has been going on for a year and a half. you've brought the laptop home like twenty times. the first two times you made different mistakes, but ever since that, it's been the hdmi cable.
19:58:53 <b_jonas> I'm just getting old, that's what it is
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20:39:34 <Taneb> Maybe you should right down a checklist
20:42:48 <fizzie> Taneb: A reminder that I wrote up https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:IRC_cloaks as a potential suggestion of how about/esolangs/* IRC cloaks could be divvied up.
20:44:02 <Taneb> fizzie: there are multiple cloaks I would like and I'm being a bit of a Buridan's Ass about the whole thing
20:44:52 <int-e> . o O ( everything/inventor/taneb )
20:45:14 <fizzie> That's reasonable enough, just wanted to make sure you didn't miss that.
20:45:54 <esolangs> [[Inverted]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84681 * Dominicentek * (+3400) Created page with "Inverted is an esoteric programming language written by Dominicentek in Java. It's code is written line-by-line, and executed from bottom to top. It's very similar to Brainfuc..."
20:46:07 <esolangs> [[Inverted]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84682&oldid=84681 * Dominicentek * (-10)
20:47:10 <zzo38> I think that if you are going to make cloaks, it could be allowed for anyone who has made at least one edit on the wiki and uses the wiki user name as the cloak name (it doesn't matter what edit, as long as it is not one that is then reverted right away because it is no good)
20:47:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: I thought the nickserv username has to be in the cloak
20:48:05 <fizzie> Nah, Wikipedia cloaks are wiki usernames AIUI.
20:49:08 <zzo38> b_jonas: If so, then require the usernames to match.
20:49:15 <b_jonas> huh... I wonder how they encode the wiki usernames, those can contain like almost all character except control characters and ten or so reserved ones
20:49:40 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sknebel * New user account
20:49:47 <b_jonas> and, in particular, [ is valid in an irc nick but not in a wiki username
20:49:54 <esolangs> [[Inverted]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84683&oldid=84682 * Dominicentek * (+66) Added categories
20:50:12 <fizzie> My preference would allow you to choose between your (Esolangs) wiki username (translated into a cloak-eligible form in any generally reasonable manner) or your IRC nickname (or I guess NickServ account name, which for most is the same), but not anything completely arbitrary.
20:50:15 <b_jonas> and hostnames are even more restricted
20:50:24 <b_jonas> but the point is, some wiki usernames don't even have any ascii chracter
20:50:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang:IRC cloaks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84684&oldid=83836 * Taneb * (+77) Request a cloak
20:50:35 <b_jonas> well I guess there's always punycode or something
20:50:43 <Taneb> fizzie: I have decided to request a cloak
20:50:54 <esolangs> [[User:Dominicentek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84685&oldid=84363 * Dominicentek * (+15)
20:51:07 <b_jonas> fizzie: and I guess you won't give me the same cloak that someone else has if I register their irc nick on the wiki or the other way
20:51:14 <b_jonas> because that would be silly
20:51:39 <fizzie> Yeah, I guess that would be a reasonable rule too.
20:51:43 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84686&oldid=84662 * Sknebel * (+203) add myself
20:51:52 <zzo38> O, those are also a valid point, although it is too late now I would have disallowed non-ASCII characters in wiki user names, since it can cause problems with homoglyphs
20:52:47 <fizzie> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC/Cloaks "Name conflicts will be handled on a case-by-case basis." I don't imagine it would really become a problem for us, because there aren't that many people interested I think.
20:53:28 <b_jonas> yep. I don't actually want a cloak.
20:54:03 <b_jonas> and if I wanted a cloak, I would prefer an unaffiliated one (I know it's not called that anymore, but still)
20:56:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Zelah * New user account
20:58:50 <fizzie> Taneb: You didn't do the "Keep the "example" record at the bottom of the table for others" bit, but that really doesn't matter. :)
20:59:38 <Taneb> fizzie: I figured there's a small chance that that was an actual person, and it'd be rude to skip the queue in front of them
20:59:56 <int-e> there's no queue, really
21:00:04 <int-e> fizzie's collecting a batch to be processed all at once
21:00:23 <fizzie> Also, the IP I use for email has somehow made it to the Spamhaus blocklist. :/ One of those new user registration confirmation emails just bounced because of that.
21:00:59 <fizzie> The listing details don't really mention my specific IP, but I guess it's possible they've blocked a larger range of DigitalOcean addresses.
21:05:08 <zzo38> I have a book of philosophy of mathematics. It mentions some things including naturalism, Platonism, and also classical and intuitionistic logic. One thing that they say is: do classical and intuitionistic logicians mean the same thing? Is one correct and the other wrong, or both wrong? Is there a disagreement about truth? But, my own opinion is: Absolute truth is inexpressible.
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21:14:11 <Corbin> zzo38: I would point out three things. First, there's a theorem, Tarski's Undefinability of Truth, which agrees with your opinion. It makes some assumptions about numbers though.
21:16:25 <Corbin> Second, the Law of Excluded Middle (LEM) is not true in all settings, and it's the main difference between constructive and non-constructive logics. So the place where we're trying to use the results of our logical reasoning (sets, spaces, etc.) alters the truthiness of some of our axioms.
21:17:30 <Corbin> Third, there's a bridge between the typical constructive approach and the typical Boolean approach; we can reuse constructive proofs in Boolean contexts, and we can use https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/double+negation+translation to go the other way.
21:23:35 <zzo38> Yes, I do know of the double negation translation and Law of Excluded Middle and that stuff
21:24:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84687&oldid=83837 * Zzo38 * (+660)
21:25:19 <Corbin> Ah, excellent. It makes sense that folks here might be initiated into esoterica.
21:28:07 <zzo38> (Also, I think the double negation translation is also related to continuation monad)
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21:53:56 <esolangs> [[Bitbot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84688&oldid=84670 * Toxinite * (+438) Mild improvements + stub and WIP templates
21:57:12 <Corbin> Yeah, it is. It's a deep mystery.
21:57:41 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84689&oldid=84638 * Toxinite * (+13) Added Bitbot
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22:07:21 <keegan> to prove "P or not P": first assert "not P", then if someone calls your bluff by providing a proof of P, use a continuation to go back in time and assert P was true all along
22:07:28 <keegan> I find this deeply amusing
22:08:00 <riv> you can't just go back in time
22:08:50 <keegan> you can't really, but you can do something that looks like it with continuations
22:09:16 <keegan> you can formalize and typecheck the above recipe for proving "P or not P" given a call/cc operator (whose type corresponds to Pierce's Law)
22:11:48 <zzo38> I had preferred a different variant which is "law of excluded middle continuations" (lem/cc), although they can be implemented from each other
22:11:50 <keegan> @type callCC (\k -> return $ Left (\x -> k $ Right x))
22:11:51 <lambdabot> MonadCont m => m (Either (b1 -> m b2) b1)
22:13:00 <keegan> within Haskell you can think of the Cont monad as a logic operator which means "classically true" as opposed to the default meaning of types, "constructively true"
22:13:16 <keegan> zzo38: what is the type of lem/cc?
22:14:39 <zzo38> keegan: It is the same as that one, I think
22:15:01 <riv> @type callCC (\k -> return $ Left (\x -> k =<< Right x))
22:15:03 <lambdabot> • Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type:
22:15:03 <lambdabot> a1 ~ Either (a1 -> Either a b0) b1
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23:18:23 <keegan> riv: let's specialize to m = Cont and rename the other variables, giving Cont (Either (a -> Cont b) a)
23:18:56 <keegan> "for all propositions a,b, it is classically true that either a implies b, or a is true"
23:19:15 <keegan> since b does not appear anywhere else this boils down to "either a implies everything, or a is true"
23:19:36 <keegan> and "a implies everything" is just a more explicit way to write "not a" (in both classical and constructive logic)
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23:20:30 <keegan> so that's the law of the excluded middle
23:22:03 <b_jonas> I thought the law of the excluded middle was the policeman joke, the one about four policeman arguing about who gets the window seats in the police car.
23:28:09 <esolangs> [[UToober]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84690&oldid=84680 * CodyNinja1 * (+109) added the VSCode extension for syntax highlighting
23:28:30 <esolangs> [[UToober]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84691&oldid=84690 * CodyNinja1 * (+2) im an idiot
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23:48:48 <esolangs> [[Bitbot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84692&oldid=84688 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) /* Commands */ Categorize
23:51:14 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84693&oldid=84667 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) 7