00:00:59 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:04:43 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:14:06 -!- delta23 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:26:13 -!- delta23 has joined. 00:39:36 I was told that even though swedish "ö" and norwegian "ø" are basically the same letter with a different shape, the same is not at all true for swedish "ä" versus norwegian "æ". I think this is something I should have noticed, but every time I saw something that pointed to it, I just assumed it's because norwegian spells everything weird. 00:40:04 i haven't heard of it, and looking at wikipedia's letter histories that doesn't fit. 00:40:38 æ and ä are both modifications of ae 00:41:12 [[Clart]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84910 * PolySaken * (+8176) Created page with " '''Clart''' is an object-oriented mildly esoteric programming language designed and implemented by [[User:PolySaken]]. == Overview == Clart programs are composed of instruc..." 00:41:30 ö is a modification of oe, and ø _might_ also be, there are two theories on the wikipedia page, the other suggests ø is from anglo-saxon oi 00:42:45 so if those are the theories, then if anything it's ø and ö which are different. of course they are _used_ equivalently, and in fact older norwegian/danish sometimes used ö instead of ø (also from wikipedia) 00:43:15 *if those are the plausible theories 00:44:06 (i'd heard before that umlaut is from e, and æ is pretty transparent, so it's only really ø i doubt, like wikipedia.) 00:50:23 also according to wikipedia, old norse used æ rather than ä, so swedish borrowed the latter from german later. i think it may be similar with ø and ö, although i didn't find that explicitly. 00:53:59 (although it's mentioned that old icelandic used ø.) 00:54:56 oh i suppose that's also a form of old norse. so the swedish letters are newer overall. 00:56:23 [[Clart]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84911&oldid=84910 * PolySaken * (+1044) 00:59:12 as for why the alphabet orders are different, i don't really know but it's probably essentially because danish and swedish developed their spellings independently, during a time when relations were less friendly. norway was part of the danish kingdom then, and norwegian bokmål started out as adapted danish. 01:02:01 the use of å in danish/norwegian was iirc part of a reform to decrease the spelling differences around 1900 (when relations had got more friendly and possibly when norway was part of the _swedish_ kingdom) 01:02:24 before that, danish/norwegian used aa 01:04:00 (norway separated from sweden in 1905 so not sure which happened first) 01:05:08 -!- spruit11 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 01:05:54 (for completeness, norway transfered from denmark to sweden in 1814 as a result of sweden and denmark choosing winning and losing sides in the napoleonic wars respectively (despite sweden's king being a former _general_ of napoleon) 01:05:58 ) 01:07:50 -!- ais523 has joined. 01:08:08 b_jonas: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Last_Resort isn't known to be Turing-complete, you're thinking of the https://esolangs.org/wiki/I/D_machine 01:08:33 also, I notice someone made a new category, contrary to policy, and am not sure what to do about it 01:08:51 presumably, either delete it or add Feather to it, as it's looking a little empty at the moment 01:09:13 b_jonas: oh! of course the å being added later to danish/norwegian is an _explanation_ for why it's last in those alphabets. 01:09:44 although the other two are still reversed as well. 01:09:48 also, both The Waterfall Model and BCT are easier to program in than "deliberately obnoxious" esolangs are, they're just very low-level 01:09:53 but they can both be plausibly written by hand 01:09:54 [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84912&oldid=83973 * PolySaken * (+402) 01:10:41 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Abethel * New user account 01:11:33 [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84913&oldid=84912 * Ais523 * (+439) /* Category Proposal: 'Impossible To Implement' as Subset of unimplemented */ pretty much already exists 01:11:40 ais523: I don't think I was thinking of I/D machine in particular 01:11:57 ah, OK 01:11:58 but I understand that Last Resort is the wrong example 01:12:33 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 01:12:51 https://esolangs.org/wiki/2C has been pretty good for me in terms of being easy to prove things TC with, too 01:13:07 "of course they are _used_ equivalently" => that is what I care about here, how the letters etymologically correspond in the spelling of different languges, rather than how the glyphs were invented 01:14:07 [[Clart]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84914&oldid=84911 * PolySaken * (+59) 01:15:02 not sure what that means. 01:15:05 the I/D machine is good for proving things TC if they have random-access memory, https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Amnesiac_From_Minsk or The Waterfall Model for counters (or things that can be made to simulate counters), 2C for string- and queue-based languages 01:16:47 incidentally, danish and norwegian use æ fairly differently. in norwegian, it's pretty much always _pronounced_ [æ], unlike in danish. (and swedish ä is also more variable.) 01:17:29 so it's not clear that etymological correspondence gets any simpler than glyph histories. 01:17:56 oh, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Stun_Step is another good example of something that's more or less directly "simpler" than BF 01:18:06 oerjan: I mean the words that have "å" in swedish will usually have an etymologically related word in norwegian that is usually also spelled with an "å" ("två" vs "to" notwithstanding) and backwards for norwegian words with an "å"; and swedish words with "ö" will usually have an etymologically related word in norwegian that is spelled with an "ø" and backwards; but the same is generally not true 01:18:12 for swedish words spelled with an "ä" 01:19:16 yes, norwegian often uses e where danish uses æ or swedish ä 01:19:32 especially in front of r. 01:19:56 when short. 01:20:08 you can also go simpler than cyclic tag: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Echo_Tag 01:21:14 * nakilon understands near nothing about the computational classes 01:21:17 btw 01:21:59 ais523: well ok, but 2C is one that would be particularly unsuitable for implementing in Rasel 01:22:15 which was the original question 01:22:15 I'm not sure what Rasel is like, so I'm just talking in general terms 01:22:35 although 01:23:08 perhaps I'm wrong in that and you can do some funny Gödel arithmetic magic thing while representing the whole string as a single bignum 01:23:11 b_jonas: when i looked into swedish phonology a while i discovered one important reason: unlike norwegian, swedish distinguishes open and closed e as long vowel phonemes, written ä and e respectively. (overall, swedish vowel spelling is more logical than norwegian.) 01:23:16 *a while ago 01:23:18 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84915&oldid=84888 * Abethel * (+458) Introduce myself 01:23:22 google has a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_engine_results_page#Featured_Snippets from esolang wiki 01:23:30 https://i.imgur.com/IBNjxbN.png 01:24:05 hmm, I assume this thing (Rasel) has an unboundedly large playfield/program space, but it only ever contains the program the user entered, so the size is fixed for any given program 01:24:27 (short e is always open in both languages. oh and swedish regularly turns open e into [æ] before r.) 01:24:58 ais523: that is correct for the code space; the data space is the Rasel stack and it can grow unbounded both in depth of stack and how large the contained numbers are 01:25:21 and I call it "stack" but you can actually random access it 01:25:44 yes 01:25:57 my first thought is to compile Mini-Flak into Rasel, but we don't actually have an article about Mini-Flak yet 01:26:01 so I'm planning to write one 01:26:43 What the *what*. 01:26:46 I haven't heard of that one, but we also don't actually have an article specifically about two/three stack machines with arbitrary finite control 01:26:51 I mean, it's just MediaWiki, I'm not surprised Google indexer can extract good snippets from it in theory. I'm just blown away by the idea that we're the featured snippet for a query like "computational classes". Though not quite as blown away as I'd be if that was the case for "computational class" too. 01:26:55 there was a flak cannon in ut2004 01:27:43 there are adverts for our Esolang wiki running on Stack Exchange, and none of us put them there 01:28:27 "Want to find a programming language that's – unique? – hard to use? – just plain weird? Esolang – the esoteric programming language wiki" 01:29:42 Weird. Well, at least our Google search performance hasn't really improved lately. We have an average search result position of 20, an average CTR of 0.9% and generally somewhere in the order of 10 daily clicks. 01:29:54 ais523: on which Stack Exchange site? there's a meta post in each SE site where those advertisments are defined, and they have history like normal posts so we can tell who put the adverts there 01:30:03 (And the most popular query is still "intcode".) 01:30:03 b_jonas: code golf and coding challenges, unsurprisingly 01:30:49 yeah, I shouldn've guessed that, though the other possibility is Stack Overflow to keep esolang stuff away from it like we keep them away from en.wikipedia 01:31:23 https://codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/a/23544/6691 01:31:32 Also on the top list is the very clearly organic search query `inurl:logs intext:get https:// ext:txt intext:password intext:username` which brings up this (well, the previous) channel's logs from 2013-05-22. 01:31:39 damn, I didn't know their formatting doesn't replace newlines with spaces https://github.com/topics/esolang 01:32:22 fizzie: that is organic, I think, in that the people searching for that do care about the results 01:32:37 …probably this explains the low click-through rate, as we're a false positive for it :-D 01:32:39 ais523: Is there a possible path to explaining complexity classes for nakilon and others in a way that would let us get beyond mere Turing-completeness? 01:33:16 Corbin: well, classes beyond TC are quite hard to define, as you're talking about something that we believe can't exist, so it's starting to get into the realm of philosophy rather than programming 01:33:19 I know that that's your focus, but I would very much like a P/BQP/PP/CSP/NP fine-grained explainer page. 01:33:22 Corbin: that sounds like two different problems clumped together 01:33:37 [[User:PolySaken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84916&oldid=84901 * PolySaken * (+511) 01:33:38 Oh, I wanted to go down, not up, sorry. "Beyond" was a poorly-chosen word. 01:34:24 Corbin: one about explaining what complexity classes are and all the lots of basic stuff theorems taught about them; and learning about complexity classes more powerful than turing-complete 01:36:07 if you want to do the first one at your own time, then there's Aho, Ullman, "The Theory of Parsing, Translation, and Compiling", (1972; ISBN 0139145567) 01:36:52 I'm just wondering if there's a better option than directly linking to the Complexity Zoo. 01:38:07 -!- andydude has joined. 01:38:16 -!- spruit11 has joined. 01:39:56 Corbin: yes, the zoo is a reference, not a textbook 01:40:30 there is this meme https://www.meme-arsenal.com/memes/56b609a3cd4b463f683e912b2e191320.jpg 01:40:43 textbooks are Aho–Ullman or David Madore's (scrambles to find the link) 01:40:44 it says: "too complex, goodbye :)" 01:40:59 course notes http://perso.enst.fr/~madore/inf105/notes-inf105.pdf linked from http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2017-11-10.2477.html 01:40:59 it's what I think when I take a look at the articles you link 01:42:43 -!- andydude has quit (Client Quit). 01:42:52 but these two are not the right introduction if you care about complexity classes more potent than Turing-complete 01:43:30 i, i too complex 01:43:30 -!- spruit11 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:43:41 unless you want only NR the class of recursively enumerable languages, which is an important class on its own 01:44:21 [[Clart]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84917&oldid=84914 * PolySaken * (+24) 01:44:22 b_jonas: I just think that the wording on the wiki could be simpler. 01:45:14 wording? what wiki page? 01:45:36 https://esolangs.org/wiki/Computational_class ? \ 01:45:41 I don't think I've ever tried to read that one 01:47:21 TIL that page. Never mind! This is good. 01:48:41 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84918&oldid=84883 * PolySaken * (+73) 01:49:07 * oerjan is annoyed that putty doesn't seem to have a reliable solution to ssh session disconnecting (the keepalive setting sometimes doesn't help, and according to docs can make things _worse_ in some cases.) 01:50:10 and of course a web search turns up suggestions to turn on keepalive as if i hadn't already. 01:51:42 [[Mini-Flak]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84919 * Ais523 * (+3301) this could do with an article; start with just a basic specification (a longer article would certainly be possible but I don't want to write it right now) 01:52:38 Corbin: for categories below TC, I think the one we care most about at Esolang are finite-state and push-down automaton 01:53:48 linear bounded sometimes comes up too 01:54:02 which are both related to memory restrictions: finite-state languages have only a finite amount of memory, and push-down automata have only a finite amount of memory + one unbounded stack, where each element of the stack is drawn from a set of finitely many possibilities 01:54:03 ais523: This is understandable. I care most about P vs NP, but that is probably just my obsession with performance. 01:54:40 P and NP are a bit subtle because they require you to define the "size of the problem" you're working on 01:54:54 and depending on the details of that definition you can get different results 01:55:08 but a sensible way to define it is to talk about the number of bits/bytes (doesn't matter) of input that's given to the program 01:55:42 then, a language in P says that the execution time of any program in the language must be bounded by some polynomial of the size of the input 01:56:04 -!- spruit11 has joined. 01:56:06 Yeah. But it'd be nice to make it clear to users. To use a non-esoteric example, CHR is solidly in NP under our current understanding, because it's built on CSP. 01:56:20 (and "P-complete" would mean that the language is in P, and also is capable of expressing any program that can be written in any language in P) 01:56:47 NP is weird, and easier to understand than it is to explain it to someone else, which doesn't help much with teaching it 01:56:47 Yes. Again with a non-esoteric example, Pola is P-complete. 01:57:40 oh, there was an article for Mini-Flak already, just spelled differently 01:58:09 mine's better :-P I'm going to make the old one into a redirect and merge the example program 01:59:49 "CHR is solidly in NP under our current understanding, because it's built on CSP." => am I just too tired to understand this? what are "CHR" and "CSP"? 02:00:07 [[Mini-Flak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84920&oldid=84919 * Ais523 * (+111) merge content from [[Miniflak]], which I didn't realise existed until after I'd written this (given that most sources for the language spell its name with a hyphen) 02:00:32 -!- spruit11 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 02:00:35 [[Mini-Flak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84921&oldid=84920 * Ais523 * (+28) merge the cats too 02:00:38 CHR, Constraint Handling Rules, is a mainstream logic proglang. It's usually found as an embedded DSL. 02:01:26 CSP is Constraint Satisfaction Problems. This class sits between P and NP and contains problems like whether a Datalog database satisfies an input query. 02:01:38 [[Miniflak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84922&oldid=50951 * Ais523 * (-802) merging into [[Mini-Flak]] (an independently created article about the same language, with the more commonly used spelling for its name) 02:02:13 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84923&oldid=84909 * Ais523 * (+1) /* M */ correct the spelling of [[Mini-Flak]] to the more commonly used spelling 02:03:00 ais523: that scared me for a moment, just on account of being a small TC language that uses multiple different kinds of brackets in its source code, but no, it doesn't seem to be related to Consumer Society 02:03:04 Corbin: thanks 02:03:23 No worries. Sorry for using so many acronyms. 02:03:50 [[RASEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84924&oldid=83635 * Nakilon * (+166) added link to a translator from brainfuck to rasel 02:04:57 . o O ( TLAs FTL ) 02:06:45 * Ais523 * (+28) merge the cats too 02:06:48 poor cats 02:06:49 The Waterfall Model should compile into RASEL pretty easily too, I think, thinking about it 02:07:19 The Whirlpool Model even more easily; I'm not sure I ever proved that one TC 02:07:31 ais523: I thought of that first, but I think a multiple-stack machine with finite control actually maps better 02:08:18 ais523: Whirlpool Model? that doesn't even seem to be defined on the wiki under that name 02:08:35 (Whirlpool is Waterfall with the restriction that the command table is cyclically symmetric, i.e. the effect of stack a zeroing on stack b is constant for any value of a-b (mod the number of counters) 02:08:38 ) 02:08:47 yes, I haven't talked about it yet 02:08:57 or maybe something is wrong with how I search, because "Whirlpool" should at least find something about the trintercal unary operator 02:09:35 oddly that operator isn't named as "whirlpool" in the https://esolangs.org/wiki/TriINTERCAL article 02:09:41 wait... 02:09:45 only as "BUT" and "@" 02:09:50 oh, TriIntercal with two is 02:09:53 two eyes 02:10:40 ais523: that doesn't mention "bookworm" either. our wiki's documentation about intercal and triintercal is rather lacking 02:10:50 the problem with The Whirlpool Model is that it's hard to make an article about it that's more interesting than "this is The Waterfall Model with this one restriction" 02:10:57 unless you have a TCness proof, and I don't 02:11:14 ais523: then don't make a separate article, just mention it in the article about the Waterfall Model 02:11:44 [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84925&oldid=84893 * Rphii * (+148) /* Examples */ add factorial example 02:11:47 (oerjan and I have a TCness proof for the case where counters go down 2 at a time rather than 1, and we only trigger on zero counters not negative counters, but that's much easier to prove) 02:11:50 there should be a language that calls some web api to check current stars and planet position to decide how to execute 02:12:11 why need a web API, other than possibly one that detects changes to the rotation of the Earth? 02:12:28 the positions of planets and stars are believed to be very predictable, so you can just implement it in your program 02:12:47 oh it can take current time actually and calculate their positions 02:12:49 ooh, make it only work if you have GPS hardware connected to correct for that, that's more reliable (though more restrictive too) than a web API 02:12:53 yeah 02:12:59 but, the rotation of the Earth does sometimes change in measurable but unpredictable ways, which is why we need a central time database to tell us when the leap seconds are 02:13:18 (not by very *much*, but enough that we can measure it) 02:13:52 you can integrate it with the real telescope but it would have pretty low performance 02:14:13 that's even more restrictive 02:14:31 and the behaviour of the runtime will be more defined at night rather than in day or if it's cloudy 02:14:50 you can get a GPS signal in much more places and times than observe anything useful with a telescope 02:15:09 I was working on an esolang a while back, which works like this: we have a high-quality PRNG (with known seed) which defines an infinite universe of non-overlapping 3D objects, drawn from a particular set, in random positions and orientations 02:15:27 the objects are reflective 02:15:42 and a program is a starting position and direction for a laser beam somewhere in that infinite universe, which bounces off the objects 02:15:42 in particular, because of some stupid technical reasons for how current computer hardware works, we usually prefer to put computers inside buildings or at least covered by a ceiling 02:15:54 but, I abandoned it because I couldn't make it TC, and it isn't interesting unless it's TC 02:15:58 you can get GPS signal in many buildings, but you can't always see then sun from inside them 02:16:13 sounds like something to run on RTX 02:16:53 ais523: hmm, that reminds me to a MathOverflow question 02:16:54 [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84926&oldid=84925 * Rphii * (+144) /* Commands */ explicitly said that inlining is possible 02:17:05 s/ to / of / 02:17:37 b_jonas I would say it's ok if the language works only under sky, it's like a biological life that prefers the surface of the planet 02:17:37 prepositions translate so badly between languages 02:18:38 it's literally an environment 02:18:52 [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84927&oldid=84926 * Rphii * (+11) /* Factorial */ add a newline after printing result 02:19:07 https://mathoverflow.net/q/156344/5340 02:19:43 ais523: I know that particular one, because it's a mistake that others kept pointing out to me, so I learned it 02:20:31 I assume it's "remind to" in Hungarian? 02:20:32 and if I think about it, "of" still sounds wrong 02:20:55 "remind to" can be valid in English, but only if the thing you're being reminded of is an action you need to take right now 02:21:02 e.g. an alarm clock reminds you to wake up 02:21:04 ais523: I think it depends on the objects. There are some fractal surfaces which can exhibit self-reflection. It would be interesting if we could show that we could decide if a given fractal's got divergent patches of surface area. 02:21:17 ais523: is that only with a verb infinitive after "to"? 02:21:19 [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84928&oldid=84927 * Rphii * (-102) /* Numbers */ the ?-number is good 02:21:21 b_jonas: right 02:21:24 and to your question, at least it's closer to "remind to" 02:23:20 Hungarian has twelve common noun cases that come up all the time with various different meanings, and they don't map all that well to English prepositions, except for the unmarked nominative case which is more or less than same as English subject position 02:24:01 hmm, so the original is some form of dative? 02:24:19 the second is for what English calls direct objects, one miscellaneous one, and then a table of 3x3 that most overtly mean from, from on, from in, at, on, in, to, onto, into 02:24:21 that makes a lot of sense actually 02:25:02 and "emlékeztet", which is what I translate "reminds" to, that comes with the onto case 02:25:57 Latin has two cases which resemble prepositions (three if you count the genitive), so seeing a language generalize the concept isn't much of a surprise 02:26:18 (in English, a genitive like "b_jonas's" is a separate case, but in French the same construction uses a preposition) 02:27:20 this, by the way, results in some funny stuff in bad translations of mail+calendar programs, the ones that use a single localizable message "To" for both the recipient of an email and the end time of an interval entry in the calendar. and the interface puts that one thing before the noun. 02:27:50 that sounds like an impossible job for the translator :-D 02:28:35 at least mark them as to^recipient and to^until in the translation source so that there's some hope of being able to get it right 02:29:39 ais523: as far as I'm aware, just one "to" prefix more or less works in the French, German, Swedish translations, so clearly you don't need to do that 02:30:11 :) 02:31:15 in fact, it's worse, given that the recipient could be a person you should logically have to^female and to^male to get the grammar right, but the email client has no way to know the gender of the recipient 02:31:28 just what a great foresight the people who invented email MIME headers had to name that field "To" instead of "Recipient", now we don't need extra strings in the translation 02:31:54 (I learned how to do translation markup from video games, where the people you're referring to are normally fictional people you've invented and thus you know their genders) 02:32:32 ais523: in what language would you have to distinguish between genders in the context of an email recipient? 02:32:33 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RandoPerso * New user account 02:32:43 I mean if it's called "to" rather than "recipient" 02:32:50 if it was "recipient" than maybe 02:32:52 b_jonas: I don't know any for certain offhand 02:33:17 but, say, in Latin, if you want "to" as a preposition to say that someone is a recipient, you need to transform the end of their name rather than using a separate word 02:33:25 and the correct transformation depends on their gender 02:33:48 yeah, true 02:33:55 so in practice you would need to translate to "recipient" instead and that might also depend on their gender 02:34:26 latin had a word for writing a letter to a woman? 02:34:36 I'm still sarcastic 02:34:54 I just looked it up 02:35:14 the Latin word for "recipient" is "acceptor" or "acceptrix" depending on whether the recipient is male or female 02:35:27 nice 02:35:29 I didn't know for certain that it would be gender-dependent, but lots of words in Latin are, so this one doesn't surprise me 02:36:05 ("acceptor" seems to have become an English word, but typically only used for inanimate objects rather than people; "acceptrix" hasn't) 02:36:57 hmm, maybe this is why the ancient Romans didn't have email 02:39:24 $ echo "+" | ruby examples/bf_translator.rb 02:39:24 :03--::\01--G1G//%1\1-\$0@ 02:39:25 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84929&oldid=84915 * RandoPerso * (+257) 02:39:34 * nakilon sighs 02:42:35 to be clear, Hungarian ordinary nouns have 15 common cases, but only 12 of them are heavily overloaded to mean all sorts of different things, the other 3 have just one or two easy to define meanings 02:48:02 heh b_jonas https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cas_grammatical#/media/Fichier:Number_of_grammatical_cases_hic01.png 02:48:37 I wonder if the 7th one is the same all over the place that is in Ukrainian 02:49:38 the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocative_case 02:54:55 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 02:55:37 i remember some page about how to do translation markup in one of the haskell web frameworks 02:56:44 it sort of mentioned how you could use arbitrary haskell functions, and how this might even handle something really complicated like russian numbers 02:57:17 apparently different russian numbers differ in both how they themselves and the noun they're applied to inflect 02:59:13 actually i'm not entirely sure if it mentioned russian numbers, or if i merely combined what it said with what i'd learned about russian numbers elsewhere 03:00:23 b_jonas: the -nek/nak case, is that one of the other 3, or that "miscellaneous" you mentioned? 03:00:37 [[User:PolySaken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84930&oldid=84916 * PolySaken * (+4) 03:00:46 (i know that can work as either dative or genitive) 03:02:26 -!- spruit11 has joined. 03:07:18 nakilon: i checked ukranian, lithuanian and czech and they all have the same set. 03:07:19 -!- spruit11 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:08:06 polish too 03:08:13 idk what was your page about but "1" - один одного одному один одним одном; and there is a difference between numbers and digits, so number 1 is "один" but digit 1 is "единица" -- it's kind of like "zero" and "null" or "none" but there are two words for all 10 03:08:32 i recall latin has ablative instead but it lacks locative and instrumental so only gets 6 03:08:43 i think proto-indoeuropean had those 8 03:10:02 nakilon: it was mostly how the noun's case can vary depending on the number that was intriguing 03:10:19 and some numerals are non-inflectable, while others aren't. 03:11:21 although i don't remember any details except that 1000000 seems to take genitive plural noun 03:11:26 2 -- two -- два, двойка; pair -- пара; but also sometimes двойка means a pair in cases like a pair of horses, also тройка for three of them 03:11:27 (at least sometimes) 03:12:05 hm 03:12:53 nakilon: anything the relevance to translation is that if you try to automatically translate the numeral and the noun separately, you'll get it wrong 03:13:25 even if you distinguish between singular and plural nouns, which is the only thing which matters in norwegian. 03:13:38 and english too, i guess. 03:13:59 no wait norwegian has gender. but not cases. 03:15:01 tldr: if you make a translation software without knowing anything about languages other than english, you're hosed. 03:15:16 heh, numbers don't have gender in Russian but digits are all female 03:15:53 nakilon: the number 1 has the same gender as the noun, surely? that's the other thing i remember. 03:16:31 i mean the kind of number you put in front of nouns, not the ones you use for counting, which i guess might be different. 03:17:14 make one man - сделать одного мужчину; make one woman -- сделать одну женщину 03:18:02 by "don't have gender" I mean they take the gender of the word they count 03:19:51 right 03:20:04 two (of something male) -- два, two (of something female) -- две, two humans -- двое 03:21:17 two males -- два or двое, two females -- две or двое, two mixed -- двое 03:24:22 oh wait, these is only about 1 and 2, and starting from 3 there is still a form for counting humans but no distinction between male and female; 3 - три, трое 03:25:38 looks like native language is more complex than you think because these rules aren't being taught explicitly, you mostly already know them when you come to school 03:29:25 heh, now I imagine a programming language where you use case to call some methods on an object, like type casting 03:36:35 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 03:38:08 -!- spruit11 has joined. 03:38:43 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 03:38:43 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 03:43:00 -!- spruit11 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 03:47:48 nakilon: have you looked at Perligata 03:48:10 not quite methods though 03:53:19 рah 03:53:23 *hah 04:20:46 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84931&oldid=84929 * PixelatedStarfish * (+436) /* Introductions */ 04:29:00 -!- spruit11 has joined. 04:33:28 -!- spruit11 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:51:50 taught bf->rasel translator to make paths across already existing lines of code by inserting spaces in them -- size of helloworld improved from 2000 to 1000 chats 04:59:22 "Currently the program doesn't print "Hello World!" but "you're a cunt" (I don't know what means that). I've changed the code to the one that is in the spanish Wikipedia." 04:59:32 (c) wikipedia brainfuck discussions page 05:00:47 -!- spruit11 has joined. 05:05:06 [[Blood32]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84932 * PixelatedStarfish * (+3064) Created page with "Blood32 is a language designed to emulate a Turing machine with terse syntax. It is a language designed for experimentation with abstract computation. Blood32 stands for Bool..." 05:05:42 -!- spruit11 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:12:29 -!- riv has joined. 05:15:50 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84933&oldid=84932 * PixelatedStarfish * (+78) 05:16:59 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84934&oldid=84933 * PixelatedStarfish * (-17) 05:17:12 hi 05:17:53 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84935&oldid=84934 * PixelatedStarfish * (+6) 05:25:43 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84936&oldid=84935 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1984) 05:39:10 heh, the brainfuck helloworld on rosettacode is also silently broken -- it prints Goodbye, Wrold! 06:27:13 haha 06:27:15 i like that 06:28:35 noone will ever know 06:39:04 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Flaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaky). 07:05:48 -!- RocketRace has joined. 07:11:58 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:16:31 -!- tromp has joined. 07:17:06 -!- leah2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:20:52 -!- leah2 has joined. 07:22:46 -!- RocketRace has quit (Quit: Client closed). 07:25:05 -!- riv has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:25:28 -!- spruit11 has joined. 07:52:14 -!- salpynx has quit (Quit: Connection closed). 08:07:24 oerjan: -nek is the third one, the third most common after nominative and object case, the one I didn't say anything about it and that is the most heavily overloaded 08:08:14 also causes the most ambiguities in practice because it's so overloaded, you often find trying to write sentences with two nouns in -nak case bound to two different other parts of the sentence and having to rewrite to avoid that 08:08:33 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 08:11:09 -!- hendursa1 has joined. 08:11:59 -!- hendursaga has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:20:49 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 08:29:02 -!- arseniiv has joined. 08:36:26 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:59:27 https://i.postimg.cc/dt4fmztx/conversation.png 09:01:58 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 09:10:00 -!- tromp has joined. 09:48:21 [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84937&oldid=84928 * Rphii * (+215) /* Instructions */ replace "counter" with "timer" and add section "stack" 09:48:52 [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84938&oldid=84937 * Rphii * (-35) /* Rules */ removed text is in section "scope" 09:50:10 [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84939&oldid=84938 * Rphii * (-2) replace "counter" with "timer" 09:59:26 [[S l o w]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84940&oldid=84316 * Loris redstone * (+0) an error in a word 10:07:36 [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84941&oldid=84939 * Rphii * (+183) added section and notice about interpreter 10:22:04 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AmNow * New user account 10:24:42 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84942&oldid=84931 * AmNow * (+184) 10:26:08 [[User:AmNow]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84943 * AmNow * (+98) Created page with "Hello, I am AmNow. I havent posted my esolangs yet, but hopefully we can see one in the future." 10:55:08 [[()s]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84944 * AmNow * (+1009) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title={}s}} {}s (pronounced: Sets) is an esolang made by [[User:AmNow]]. (Phelo Saad) == Commands == {}: Expression (can be nested) ie: {%+%} %: the constant..." 10:56:38 [[User:AmNow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84945&oldid=84943 * AmNow * (-27) 10:57:29 [[User:AmNow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84946&oldid=84945 * AmNow * (+0) 10:58:35 [[User:AmNow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84947&oldid=84946 * AmNow * (+7) Changed wording. 11:06:17 [[()s]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84948&oldid=84944 * AmNow * (+59) cats 11:07:49 [[()s]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84949&oldid=84948 * AmNow * (+0) misspell 11:11:39 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84950&oldid=84923 * AmNow * (+10) Added Language 11:15:53 -!- Koen_ has joined. 11:15:59 bonjour 11:19:52 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84951&oldid=84918 * AmNow * (+41) added lang 11:25:28 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:37:39 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 11:48:54 -!- arseniiv has joined. 11:56:38 [[User:AmNow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84952&oldid=84947 * AmNow * (+163) added other 12:07:50 [[User:AmNow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84953&oldid=84952 * AmNow * (+4) grammar mistakes 12:14:25 [[User:AmNow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84954&oldid=84953 * AmNow * (-4) 12:16:36 [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84955&oldid=84941 * Rphii * (+46) /* Commands */ add _ command and move [t|t], fix a t and some c 12:25:50 [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84956&oldid=84955 * Rphii * (+219) /* Numbers */ move | 12:33:37 -!- b_jonas has joined. 12:41:58 [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84957&oldid=84956 * Rphii * (+16) /* Hello World */ update 12:45:57 -!- andydude has joined. 12:46:16 [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84958&oldid=84957 * Rphii * (+130) /* Calculator */ update 12:47:46 [[()s]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84959&oldid=84949 * AmNow * (+56) 12:53:17 [[()s]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84960&oldid=84959 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) /* Computational Class */ Cats 12:53:33 [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84961&oldid=84958 * Rphii * (+0) /* Hello World */ fix mess-up 12:54:12 [[Blood32]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84962&oldid=84936 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+67) Cats, header 12:55:00 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84963&oldid=84950 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) Add Blood32 12:59:06 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84964&oldid=84693 * AmNow * (+29) 13:01:20 -!- andydude has quit (Quit: andydude). 13:02:18 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84965&oldid=84964 * AmNow * (+0) 13:08:25 [[StackLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84966 * Dominicentek * (+1656) Page created 13:14:17 [[StackLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84967&oldid=84966 * Dominicentek * (+38) Added cat program 13:35:02 [[StackLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84968&oldid=84967 * Dominicentek * (+0) 13:35:48 -!- Koen_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:37:23 -!- Koen_ has joined. 13:52:26 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84969&oldid=84962 * PixelatedStarfish * (+23) 13:54:01 -!- andydude has joined. 13:55:02 [[User:AmNow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84970&oldid=84954 * AmNow * (+13) 14:07:21 -!- dyeplexer has joined. 14:07:46 [[Fohc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84971&oldid=84752 * Matthilde * (-11) 14:13:49 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:15:03 -!- dyeplexer has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 14:15:33 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84972&oldid=84969 * PixelatedStarfish * (+617) 14:37:38 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 14:42:23 [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84973&oldid=84961 * Rphii * (+233) /* Stack */ further elaborate the behaviour of an empty stack 14:51:21 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84974&oldid=84972 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1608) 14:59:46 -!- tromp has joined. 15:04:46 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84975&oldid=84974 * PixelatedStarfish * (+878) 15:16:20 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84976&oldid=84975 * PixelatedStarfish * (+484) /* Pointer Operations */ 15:17:31 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84977&oldid=84976 * PixelatedStarfish * (+103) /* Program Examples */ 15:18:32 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84978&oldid=84977 * PixelatedStarfish * (+72) /* Program Examples */ 15:20:57 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84979&oldid=84978 * PixelatedStarfish * (+101) /* Tokens */ 15:21:20 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84980&oldid=84979 * PixelatedStarfish * (-118) 15:38:17 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84981&oldid=84980 * PixelatedStarfish * (+486) 15:42:49 [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84982&oldid=84973 * Rphii * (+312) /* Instructions */ add section Escape Sequences and fix some logical issues in the section Stack 15:48:29 [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84983&oldid=84982 * Rphii * (+104) added section External resources 15:52:17 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84984&oldid=84981 * PixelatedStarfish * (+501) 15:54:34 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84985&oldid=84984 * PixelatedStarfish * (+44) /* Tape */ 15:58:03 [[Blood]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84986 * PixelatedStarfish * (+21) Redirected page to [[Blood32]] 15:58:33 [[Bld32]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84987 * PixelatedStarfish * (+19) Redirected page to [[Blood]] 15:59:09 [[Bld32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84988&oldid=84987 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) Changed redirect target from [[Blood]] to [[Blood32]] 16:01:24 [[Fohc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84989&oldid=84971 * Matthilde * (+33) 16:01:39 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84990&oldid=84985 * PixelatedStarfish * (+66) 16:17:17 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84991&oldid=84990 * PixelatedStarfish * (+9) 16:17:49 [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84992 * PixelatedStarfish * (+46) Created page with "Hi, I'm Pixelated Starfish Creator of Blood32" 16:18:38 [[Blood32]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84993&oldid=84991 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) 16:19:11 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84994&oldid=84993 * PixelatedStarfish * (-6) 16:20:08 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84995&oldid=84994 * PixelatedStarfish * (-4) /* Elements */ 16:20:34 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84996&oldid=84995 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Tape */ 16:20:42 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84997&oldid=84996 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Grid */ 16:23:45 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84998&oldid=84997 * PixelatedStarfish * (+24) 16:24:12 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84999&oldid=84998 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) 16:26:36 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85000&oldid=84999 * PixelatedStarfish * (+91) /* External resources */ 16:27:00 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85001&oldid=85000 * PixelatedStarfish * (-91) /* External resources */ 16:31:10 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85002&oldid=85001 * PixelatedStarfish * (+51) 16:31:38 [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * PixelatedStarfish * uploaded "[[File:Bld32 7.png]]" 16:33:40 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85004&oldid=85002 * PixelatedStarfish * (-7) 16:34:03 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85005&oldid=85004 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) 16:34:23 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85006&oldid=85005 * PixelatedStarfish * (+3) 16:35:48 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85007&oldid=85006 * PixelatedStarfish * (+44) 16:36:41 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85008&oldid=85007 * PixelatedStarfish * (+20) 16:37:17 [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85009&oldid=84983 * Rphii * (+429) /* Instructions */ added section Divide by Zero 16:38:49 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85010&oldid=85008 * PixelatedStarfish * (+16) 16:39:48 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85011&oldid=85010 * PixelatedStarfish * (+27) 16:40:45 -!- andydude has quit (Quit: andydude). 16:42:10 [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85012&oldid=85009 * Rphii * (+67) /* Interpreter */ I 16:42:16 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85013&oldid=85011 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) 16:43:51 [[StackLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85014&oldid=84968 * Dominicentek * (+10) Correction 16:47:53 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 16:50:14 -!- imode has joined. 16:55:51 -!- andydude has joined. 16:57:35 [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85015&oldid=85012 * Rphii * (+211) /* Calculator */ add smaller variant 17:02:10 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 17:03:23 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 17:08:14 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 17:16:22 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:17:34 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 17:25:36 [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85016&oldid=85015 * Rphii * (+301) /* Commands */ added output commands with newline function and #-command 17:27:34 [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85017&oldid=85016 * Rphii * (+100) /* Escape Sequences */ add escape sequence of # 17:35:52 -!- Koen_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:37:51 -!- Koen_ has joined. 17:48:06 [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85018&oldid=85017 * Rphii * (+60) /* Examples */ added "Fibonacci" program 17:50:56 [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85019&oldid=85018 * Rphii * (+64) /* Commands */ clarify recently added commands 17:52:14 [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85020&oldid=85019 * Rphii * (+75) /* Stack */ clarify 17:54:43 [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85021&oldid=85020 * Rphii * (+0) /* Commands */ fix mess-up 18:06:58 -!- andydude has quit (Quit: andydude). 18:14:06 -!- tromp has joined. 18:17:45 -!- andydude has joined. 18:18:34 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 18:27:07 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 18:31:14 -!- tromp has joined. 18:39:36 [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85022&oldid=85021 * Rphii * (+134) /* Numbers */ added range 18:40:03 re yesterday's language thing, one problem with counting noun cases in Hungarian is that it's not clear to me if there's a clear boundary between case endings and prepositions that you put after the nouns. some prepositions like "under" work basically the same as case endings, it's just that we write the endings that never add more than one syllable ran together without a space, and it's only those that 18:40:09 you count for cases. sure, case endings can also change the ending of the noun, but they can't change them in 15 different ways, you would probably only need four cases if you allowed writing any almost-fixed suffix with a space (almost-fixed as in the only thing that may vary is two-way or three-way vowel harmony) 18:41:07 -!- riv has joined. 18:42:50 -!- slavfox has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in). 18:42:55 no wait, you'd need five cases, not four, because of -val 18:43:44 -!- slavfox has joined. 18:46:49 nakilon: re "https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cas_grammatical#/media/Fichier:Number_of_grammatical_cases_hic01.png" looks funny 18:47:06 hi 18:49:05 [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85023&oldid=85022 * Rphii * (+184) /* Numbers */ clarify 18:50:18 there's also the complication of numerals in Hungarian, which complicate the model. numerals have unique affixes that you can only apply to them, including two that are case endings, plus they can get basically all the normal noun/adjective affixes 18:56:28 so when you have a numeral, you first add a suffix which can be (nothing (to result in a cardinal), -od or similar (to result in a reciprocial fraction), -odik or similar (to result in an ordinal), or -odika or similar (only used for date numbers within a month)) and THEN you add a case ending which can be most of the normal noun case endings, or the special -szor ("times"). and any of those infixes 18:56:34 will of course change in form and change the form of whatever is immediately before them for all sorts of phonetic reasons, plus a few numerals have special irregular rules (like "first" and "second" in English). 18:57:17 not that this is in any way special, because ordinary nouns/adjectives and verbs also get multiple agreeing suffixes in sequence, and occasionally it's not even clear if something is one suffix or a common combination of two suffixes modified to unrecognizability 19:02:21 because verbs get suffixes for (any combination of (4 mode-tenses times 6 number-persons times 2 object agreements) with like 46 or 47 of the 48 combinations actually distinguishable for some verbs) or (an infinitive ending with one of 7 number-persons, so you can use it as either a noun phrase or an argument to an auxiliary verb) or (one of the three adjective participle endings so you can use it as an 19:02:27 epiteth or noun phrase) or (an adverb participle ending so you can use it as an adverb). 19:04:50 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 19:05:46 and nouns/adjectives can get (nothing or less often one of six number-person endings indicating a grammatical possessor) times (a plural marker or lack of it) times (a rare -é marker to indicate a possessor with elided possessed argument followed by another optional plural marker, or nothing) and THEN they get a case ending 19:05:55 and that's if they aren't numerals 19:08:57 the bad news is that numerals are theoretically an open class, new numerals can be invented; the good news is that numerals are practically a closed class, it's almost impossible to invent a new numeral other than just prefixing an existing numeral with more words, because most numeral meanings that you may want to say are already invented, so I think pretty much the only way you can invent a new one is 19:09:03 (1) have a president ask how much is a "brazillion" and have this leaked, (2) invent a swearword, which is an open class becuase you can use anything as a swearword, then use that swearword frequently including as an intensifier, then use that swearword as a numeral because you can get away breaking most grammar with swearwords once they're so common that they're used as an intensifier 19:11:10 [[Bitbot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85024&oldid=84824 * Toxinite * (+237) 19:12:34 and all this only works because numerals don't share any recognizable endings; I believe even with the power of swearwords you can't create a new verb that doesn't end in -Vl or -z or -Vd (V meaning any vowel) or -ik or one of the few more obscure ending and isn't an obvious compound of a well-known verb. 19:14:40 and there are further restrictions for most of those verb endings, so in practice most entirely new verbs, such as ones taken from English tech or science terminology, end in -ol/-el/-öl 19:16:39 on the plus side, once you understand those rules, it's easy to create verbs: if you have basically any word, regardless part of speech, and mangled its phonology enough to be valid in Hungarian, you can pretty much slap -ol/-el/-öl and get a fine verb, unless that happens to badly clash with some other word 19:18:50 for making a new noun/adjective, you barely even need an ending, just massage the word to match phonological rules, possibly change the final vowel if it ends in a vowel, and you have a noun/adjective, again unless it badly clashes with an existing word so it would cause ambiguity 19:21:29 for words ending in a vowel, ending in -o or -ö is absolutely banned, change it to -ó or -ö; ending in -u or -ü is banned for new words, change it to -ú or -ű; ending in -á or -é or -í should usually be avoided and changed to -a or -e or -í but not completely forbidden, so only half of the vowels are available, but basically any consonant 19:22:22 s/to -ó or -ö/to -ó or -ő/ 19:28:47 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85025&oldid=85013 * PixelatedStarfish * (+43) 19:32:34 -!- tromp has joined. 19:38:21 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85026&oldid=85025 * PixelatedStarfish * (-65) /* External resources */ 19:38:47 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85027&oldid=85026 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* External resources */ 19:40:21 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85028&oldid=85027 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* External resources */ 19:41:43 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85029&oldid=85028 * PixelatedStarfish * (-280) 19:43:39 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85030&oldid=85029 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) 19:44:08 [[Blood32]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85031&oldid=85030 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) 19:45:25 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85032&oldid=85031 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Grammar in EBNF */ 19:47:56 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85033&oldid=85032 * PixelatedStarfish * (+39) 19:54:13 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85034&oldid=85033 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* Grammar */ 19:54:59 -!- andydude has quit (Quit: andydude). 19:55:34 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85035&oldid=84951 * PixelatedStarfish * (+364) 19:59:30 -!- andydude has joined. 20:06:19 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85036&oldid=85034 * PixelatedStarfish * (+17) /* Hello World */ 20:07:11 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85037&oldid=85036 * PixelatedStarfish * (+14) /* Hello World */ 20:07:48 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85038&oldid=85037 * PixelatedStarfish * (+30) /* Truth Machine */ 20:08:25 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85039&oldid=85038 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Truth Machine */ 20:08:40 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85040&oldid=85039 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Truth-Machine */ 20:09:16 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85041&oldid=85040 * PixelatedStarfish * (-6) /* Hello World */ 20:14:07 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85042&oldid=85041 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* Quine */ 20:14:29 [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85043&oldid=83501 * PixelatedStarfish * (+164) 20:16:57 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85044&oldid=85042 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Grammar */ 20:17:35 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85045&oldid=85044 * PixelatedStarfish * (-11) /* Grammar */ 20:18:10 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85046&oldid=85045 * PixelatedStarfish * (+12) /* Grammar */ 20:21:29 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85047&oldid=85046 * PixelatedStarfish * (+21) /* Quine */ 20:21:33 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85048&oldid=84963 * Dominicentek * (+15) /* I */ 20:25:03 -!- andydude has quit (Quit: andydude). 20:25:07 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85049&oldid=85048 * Dominicentek * (+16) /* S */ 20:26:48 [[StackLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85050&oldid=85014 * Dominicentek * (+43) 20:27:48 [[User:Dominicentek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85051&oldid=84685 * Dominicentek * (+16) 20:28:41 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85052&oldid=85047 * PixelatedStarfish * (+19) /* Grammar */ 20:29:08 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85053&oldid=85052 * PixelatedStarfish * (+58) /* Grammar */ 20:29:32 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85054&oldid=85053 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* Grammar */ 20:29:56 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85055&oldid=85054 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2) /* Grammar */ 20:30:20 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85056&oldid=85055 * PixelatedStarfish * (-66) /* External resources */ 20:30:53 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85057&oldid=85056 * PixelatedStarfish * (-79) /* External resources */ 20:43:06 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85058&oldid=85057 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1728) 20:43:32 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85059&oldid=85058 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2) /* Behaviors */ 20:47:07 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85060&oldid=85059 * PixelatedStarfish * (+123) /* Behaviors */ 20:48:22 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 21:09:06 -!- andydude has joined. 21:14:57 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 21:14:57 -!- salpynx has joined. 21:15:36 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85061&oldid=85060 * PixelatedStarfish * (+42) /* Behaviors */ 21:16:24 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85062&oldid=85061 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* The Tape */ 21:16:32 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85063&oldid=85062 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* The Grid */ 21:16:48 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85064&oldid=85063 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Pointer Operations */ 21:17:16 [[Category:Prototype-based paradigm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85065&oldid=84904 * PolySaken * (+39) 21:19:57 [[Blood32]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85066&oldid=85064 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) 21:20:18 [[Blood32]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85067&oldid=85066 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) 21:20:26 -!- slavfox has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:21:17 -!- slavfox has joined. 21:22:56 [[Category:Educational]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85068 * PixelatedStarfish * (+139) Created page with "==Educational Languages== These languages are designed for educational purposes, such as for teaching, or learning through experimentation." 21:23:45 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85069&oldid=85067 * PixelatedStarfish * (+25) /* External resources */ 21:26:20 -!- tromp has joined. 21:28:50 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85070&oldid=85069 * PixelatedStarfish * (+140) 21:29:19 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85071&oldid=85070 * PixelatedStarfish * (+14) /* Tobysil */ 21:40:44 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:42:33 [[Clart]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85072&oldid=84917 * PolySaken * (+25) /* Execute Flag */ 21:43:08 [[Clart]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85073&oldid=85072 * PolySaken * (+1) /* Functions */ 22:16:31 -!- iovoid has changed nick to GF. 22:36:05 -!- cd has changed nick to moon. 22:47:32 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 23:17:56 -!- GF has changed nick to [iovoid]. 23:23:44 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85074&oldid=85035 * Oshaboy * (+529) Added another C-INTERCAL truth machine 23:30:01 fungot, what is the difference betwen a "paucity" and a "scarcity"? 23:30:01 b_jonas: i think that lshort tutorial is the best programmer who is still arround. :p 23:48:12 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85075&oldid=85071 * PixelatedStarfish * (+656) /* Tobysil */ 23:48:55 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85076&oldid=85075 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Restrictions */ 23:50:42 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85077&oldid=85076 * PixelatedStarfish * (-5) /* Hello World */ 23:50:57 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85078&oldid=85077 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Hello World */ 23:51:14 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85079&oldid=85078 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Hello World */ 23:51:32 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85080&oldid=85079 * PixelatedStarfish * (-4) /* Truth Machine */ 23:51:53 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85081&oldid=85080 * PixelatedStarfish * (-3) /* Quine */ 23:56:22 -!- andydude has quit (Quit: andydude). 23:56:44 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85082&oldid=85081 * PixelatedStarfish * (+7) /* Tokens */ 23:57:05 [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85083&oldid=85082 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Pointer operations */ 23:57:20 -!- andydude has joined. 23:58:10 -!- andydude has quit (Client Quit).