01:18:03 <b_jonas> yeah, channels lazily spring into existence when someone joins them, so most channels exist by default
01:18:21 <b_jonas> though you might also ask how many freenodes there are right now. the last time I heard about them, there were three.
02:09:14 <esolangs> [[Godencode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85667&oldid=85444 * Plasmath * (+52) fixed errors in code
02:47:23 -!- shikhin has changed nick to shikhtest.
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03:43:17 <b_jonas> nakilon: can you make the \ruby plugin not print the return value if it's nil, so that you can easily write statements where the output comes from print or similar?
03:44:13 <b_jonas> \ruby "nakilon: otherwise we need stupid workarounds like this:"; print("hi"); class M; def inspect; ""; end; end; M.new
03:49:19 <esolangs> [[IRC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85668&oldid=34530 * B jonas * (+140) disambig hatnote
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04:12:04 <b_jonas> nakilon: also can you put the more recent source code to the github repo? it doesn't seem to have this ruby plugin yet
04:22:30 <b_jonas> \ruby system %q(>/proc/1/fd/5 echo 2yUJcT8bEz8w )
04:22:34 <velik> sh: echo: I/O errorfalse
05:02:19 <esolangs> [[S3C (sssc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85669&oldid=85574 * Spargle * (+37) /* The world's stupidest language. */
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06:53:02 <Guest65> So are people still using irc here? Very Cool
06:55:21 <myname> no, none of the people here are using irc
06:56:32 <int-e> there are people here?
06:57:13 <imode> this channel has people in it.
06:58:35 <Guest65> So i guess most of them are offline?
07:03:25 <zzo38> I still use IRC, at least. So do other people, I think
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07:09:57 <esolangs> [[Python is Magic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85670&oldid=85163 * OllyTheFoldy * (+2255) /* Example codes */
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08:25:29 <HackEso> 1/1:1012) <elliott> five fucks away from installing ubuntu \ 1123) <Bike> i'm ten pages in to an ethernet-phy manual and i'm pretty sure the internet is impossible
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09:09:56 <zzo38> Is there any keyboards with Hollerith chording? It was a idea I had, disliking touch screens, T9 input, and pushing the numbers until the letters come up that you want; I think that Hollerith chording is better.
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09:38:41 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think there were card punch keyboards that had a few keys that added specific column punches to a character, as the way to access rare characters that aren't on their layout, but they're still ordinary QWERTY layout
09:43:52 <b_jonas> for a full hollerith keyboard, I think you'd need something like an alphabetic layout (which exist) with nine letters per row (I don't know if that exists) like number row 0123456789 top row &ABCDEFGHI home row -JKLMNOPQR bottom row /STUVWXYZ and then a space bar, and there are a few modifiers around it like a symbol modifier that adds the 8 hole, and a lower case modifier that modifies the 12 11 10
09:43:58 <b_jonas> holes in a weird way, and a meta modifier that adds the 9 hole
09:44:04 <b_jonas> and of course some control buttons like one to start on a new card
09:47:07 <b_jonas> but I think these don't exist, because by the time most card punches were made, people were already used to the QWERTY and similar layouts, and wanted to type fast, so they made card punches with those layouts
09:51:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: wait, this chorded one with 12 keys for the 12 holes does exist: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/oldpunch.html#ekpunch
09:51:22 <b_jonas> it was probably used for mostly punching numbers
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10:07:03 <nakilon> b_jonas maybe not print the return if anything was printed?
10:07:42 <nakilon> b_jonas I didn't open source the ruby plugin yet because I'm not sure about its safety yet )
10:12:01 <b_jonas> nakilon: I think not printing nil would be more transparent and less fragile hidden magic, that's how irb and many other interactive interpreters work
10:12:11 <nakilon> found anything? ) what is that proc fd thing?
10:13:11 <b_jonas> nakilon: it's a socket and writing into it seemed to result in at least three apparently different results, including once a "thread error" that originates from your code, though it's possible that the fds of init aren't always numbered the same
10:13:27 <b_jonas> oh yeah, irb does print nil
10:13:58 <b_jonas> still, some other interactive interpreters work that way
10:15:19 <b_jonas> but then I don't particular like ruby, so I might be mostly using this to run other commands with eg. \ruby system %q(...)
10:15:33 <nakilon> and I won't say it's handy -- you don't clearly see if the command was ran at all; nil.to_s => "", nil.inspect => "nil" and IRB is inspecting the return value
10:16:07 <nakilon> I think I'll just hide the return value if stdout isn't empty
10:16:24 <nakilon> because usually you might not need both
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10:16:47 <b_jonas> we can probably work around any of that on our side
10:17:44 <b_jonas> does this still react to [wiki:nonsense] ?
10:18:35 <b_jonas> that seems important enough that I should mention it on the wiki
10:18:42 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
10:18:43 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
10:18:45 <perlbot> b_jonas: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
10:20:08 <b_jonas> (deliberate space before, just checking)
10:21:48 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload
10:22:03 <nakilon> b_jonas -- the OWASP of IRC
10:22:22 <esolangs> [[Velik]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85671&oldid=85661 * B jonas * (+168) [wiki:
10:24:01 <b_jonas> no, I'm mostly just testing for bot loops and IRC-related exploits. I suspect the supposed container for this \ruby thing has holes, but I'd have to understand how the heck this https://github.com/GoogleCloudPlatform/functions-framework-ruby library works to understand that, I probably won't bother much with that
10:25:52 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
10:26:28 <b_jonas> ^def prefixes ul (fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [, bfbot =, velik \.)S
10:26:32 <fungot> fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [, bfbot =, velik \.
10:31:26 <b_jonas> though maybe now that I edit it, I should add > into them
10:31:40 <b_jonas> ^def prefixes ul (fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or >, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [, bfbot =, velik \.)S
10:31:44 <fungot> fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or >, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [, bfbot =, velik \.
10:31:47 <perlbot> b_jonas: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
10:32:08 <b_jonas> perlbot learn prefixes are fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or >, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
10:32:09 <perlbot> b_jonas: Stored prefixes as fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or >, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
10:32:09 <fungot> b_jonas: i really like this situation and decided to put the registers into the ram... the other car is for the week/ day/ moment: why the emphasis on math starts to slowly fall away. like in fnord example on an o(1) operation, just like in qbf, you take the result modulo 10.
10:32:54 <b_jonas> `/bin/cat /hackenv/bin/prefixes
10:33:03 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
10:33:27 <b_jonas> `learn prefixes Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or >, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
10:33:27 <fungot> b_jonas: is set!'s scope bound to the command after the current character to the topmost a
10:33:30 <HackEso> Learned 'prefixe': prefixes Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or >, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
10:33:36 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
10:33:39 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
10:33:43 <perlbot> b_jonas: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or >, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
10:33:44 <fungot> fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or >, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [, bfbot =, velik \.
10:34:13 <b_jonas> perlbot compose [learn prefixes are Bot prefixes: [fact prefixes]]
10:34:13 <perlbot> b_jonas: Compose failed to find a plugin named: learn
10:34:18 <b_jonas> perlbot compose [fact learn prefixes are Bot prefixes: [fact prefixes]]
10:34:18 <perlbot> b_jonas: Stored prefixes as Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or >, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
10:34:25 <perlbot> b_jonas: Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or >, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
10:34:49 <perlbot> b_jonas: #esolangs logs are available at https://logs.esolangs.org/
10:35:51 <b_jonas> the tunes log seems to be logging the channel on one of the freenodes
10:36:40 <esolangs> [[Velik]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85672&oldid=85671 * Nakilon * (+145) added [wiki:...] helper example
10:38:00 <esolangs> [[Velik]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85673&oldid=85672 * Nakilon * (-1) moved this snippet lower
10:38:14 <nakilon> didn't notice your addition
10:38:38 <nakilon> I should add velik to thelounge highlights
10:40:47 <b_jonas> \ruby system %q(openssl rand -base64 18);(1..7).to_a
10:40:54 <velik> t8IFt0N+9ok4L6P8nX/jY4mC
10:41:00 <b_jonas> \ruby system %q(openssl rand -vase64 18); (1..7).to_a
10:41:04 <velik> remote execution commands loaded: ["rasel", "morse", "demorse", "ruby"]
10:41:10 <velik> rand: Option unknown option -vase64[1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7]
10:41:15 <velik> \ruby <Ruby lang code>; does not print return value if stdout isn't empty; timelimit=10s
10:42:17 <int-e> Ugh, do we have another bot?
10:42:40 <int-e> Ah, no, velik is known already.
10:42:49 <b_jonas> int-e: it's an evalbot so it's possible that nakilon will give up running it quickly
10:42:55 <int-e> So is perlbot (meaning, lambdabot knows about these two.)
10:43:14 <b_jonas> int-e: perlbot is not new, it's just newly joined on #esolangs
10:43:48 <int-e> perlbot is a more recent addition to lambdabot's ignore list
10:43:49 <perlbot> int-e: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [.is] [is] [iis] [@isa] [ic] [ik] [.iq] [iaq] [icke] [ioccc]
10:44:08 <int-e> ugh, no colon required?
10:47:39 <b_jonas> also perlbot is a heavily modified further developed version of buubot3, and buubot3 is a spiritual successor of buubot2, and buubot2 is rather old
10:48:11 <b_jonas> int-e: fungot doesn't require a colon either, so I don't think this is worse
10:48:11 <fungot> b_jonas: really? i'm fnord, iirc. :p at least i'll make a game like this
10:49:16 <b_jonas> wait, I thought I exceeded four lines?
10:49:34 <int-e> b_jonas: you get five, I think.
10:50:54 <b_jonas> buubot3 used to be configured to also react to its built-in command names like fact and echo and help, but probably only in his home channel and private message
10:51:33 <b_jonas> perlbot only does so in private message apparently
10:52:16 <b_jonas> I actually prefer bots that react to their names to ones that only react to short prefixes. more discoverable.
10:52:30 <b_jonas> you have to find out somewhere that you have to type `help or something
10:53:17 <nakilon> \ruby require 'securerandom'; SecureRandom.base64 10
10:53:23 <velik> "ZoDiL+qZ/fjKlg=="
10:53:25 -!- int-e has set topic: Welcome to the prehistoric cult of esoteric programming, promulgation, procurement, and propulsion! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://logs.esolangs.org/.
10:53:27 <b_jonas> though in jevalbot I got the worst of both worlds: it reacts to its nick but also has such a weird syntax that it's still not discoverable
10:54:16 <b_jonas> is it another reactionless drive thing again?
10:54:35 <int-e> it's when a language really takes off
10:55:05 <int-e> I'm also running out of words that start with "pro-".
10:55:17 <b_jonas> I mean https://xkcd.com/1404/ and https://xkcd.com/955/
10:56:21 <int-e> Hmm, I don't remember either of those.
10:56:44 <b_jonas> the xkcds or the hype around the original experiments?
10:57:52 <b_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light_neutrino_anomaly was the neutrino one
10:58:13 <b_jonas> https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1404:_Quantum_Vacuum_Virtual_Plasma probalby has links for the more recent one
10:58:45 <b_jonas> hmm, is there an xkcd for the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_anomaly ?
10:59:39 <b_jonas> although admittedly the Pioneer anomaly *predates* xkcd
10:59:44 <b_jonas> wow, that's a rare thing to say
11:00:58 <b_jonas> but of course it is referenced in xkcds: 502 title text, 1547, 1621
11:02:13 <b_jonas> hmm no, 1621 is apparently about another anomaly of spacecraft trajectories, fun
11:04:09 <nakilon> \ruby `openssl rand -base64 18`
11:04:13 <velik> "ZJAY1xFL9eA5WZf8xHkmfbaP\n"
11:04:31 <nakilon> \ruby puts `openssl rand -base64 18`
11:04:33 <velik> nbMuD/e+zrL7MD8YfCVRaYlm
11:09:34 <b_jonas> nakilon: is there a way to upload or download data to velik faster than tunneling through the \ruby command and its responses?
11:09:45 <b_jonas> possibly one outside of IRC
11:10:13 <b_jonas> HackEso and perlbot have web interfaces for this, and HackEso also has the !fetch builtin command
11:10:47 <nakilon> nope, the \ remote executors are all temporary linux machines that start and die immediately
11:11:03 <b_jonas> no way, I tested that it can store persistent stuff already
11:11:30 <nakilon> and since I'm running out of money I moved the IRC bot itself to a smaller machine so other bots I run there can make it slower to react on the command too
11:11:41 <b_jonas> \ruby system %q(>/tmp/KNg_VCwx0Mf6 echo XzC-o_acVjLC)
11:11:55 <b_jonas> \ruby system %q(cat /tmp/KNg_VCwx0Mf6)
11:12:11 <b_jonas> the file system is persistent
11:12:23 <nakilon> maybe it can download, idk
11:12:24 <b_jonas> it might not be guaranteed to presist forever
11:13:05 <b_jonas> I'm just wondering, I'm not saying that you have to add a faster method, I just want to know before I start to tunnel larger amounts of data over IRC
11:13:17 <int-e> \ruby system %q(curl http://whatismyip.akamai.com/)
11:13:21 <velik> % Total % Received % Xferd Average Speed Time Time Time Current107.178.231.229
11:14:01 <b_jonas> int-e: there's one of those that work without crazy heavy browser script stuff? wow, good to know
11:15:13 <nakilon> "Depending on the volume of requests, as well as the number of existing function instances, Cloud Functions may assign a request to an existing instance or create a new one. Each instance of a function handles only one concurrent request at a time. "
11:16:05 <b_jonas> nakilon: right, so it's just opportunistically persistent. that makes the tunneling even worse since I may have to resend some data
11:16:52 <nakilon> yeah, if you can't fit it in one command
11:17:36 <b_jonas> yeah. I'm not going to golf everything down to one IRC line.
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11:18:16 <nakilon> maybe I should isolate the network at all for security purpose but I'm lazy to do it yet
11:18:33 <b_jonas> wait, there's network access?
11:18:45 <b_jonas> I'll have to upload a botnet then
11:19:10 <nakilon> it requires me to configure the project in some way that operates such terms as "business" and stuff while legally I can't use it like I use it now according to tax services in Russia
11:19:17 <b_jonas> oh, that also means I can just upload or download larger data through network
11:19:31 <nakilon> it just doesn't spend too much money so tax services don't give a damn about me yet
11:20:10 <b_jonas> though the 10 second time limit makes it a bit inconvenient
11:20:17 <nakilon> b_jonas your botnet will work only 10 seconds minus something
11:20:37 <b_jonas> nakilon: that just means I have to send a new command every 10 seconds, but sure
11:20:51 <b_jonas> nakilon: and it has network access, so it might be able to send commands to itself
11:21:13 <b_jonas> though it's hard to connect to IRC in 10 seconds
11:21:13 <nakilon> I mean it definitely can't spin itself
11:21:42 <b_jonas> at least to libera, which waits for a timeout on identd, unless I can run an identd in the command
11:21:52 <nakilon> I guess libera will ban it
11:23:37 <nakilon> btw, how to quickly get money other than selling nudes and kidneys? ..D
11:24:40 <hanif> hm https://cs.stackexchange.com/q/141979 , basically asks if halt(`:;s/pattern/replacement/;t`) where both pattern and replacement are [ab]* is decidable or not
11:24:45 <nakilon> I wish I was a professional in some more demanded job, like cutting grass
11:26:14 <b_jonas> nakilon: catch a pokemon, grind its level up, fight every pokemon trainer you meet, they give you money as you win
11:26:31 <b_jonas> you may have to spend a smaller part of the money on items, but the rest will be profit
11:26:42 <b_jonas> or maybe some gold duplication glitch
11:27:30 <b_jonas> try to drop your money, wait, pick up money and quickly close the game, your inventory is saved more frequently than the rest of the world so you often get a copy of your money in your inventory and one copy still dropped;
11:31:40 <b_jonas> in old versions, there was also a different way to duplicate gold, it involved something with letting a monster steal your gold then petrifying them, and somehow for historical reasons the statue stored the amount of gold both as gold and as an object, and you could get both. if you want lots of money, you have to be careful not to try to get more than 2**31 gold, though if you do overflow, the antigold
11:31:46 <b_jonas> has particularly useful properties, most importantly having a large negtive weight and thus making your effective carrying capacity almost infinite
11:32:05 <b_jonas> it's one of the very few ways to lift an object that's heavier than 1000
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11:40:44 <b_jonas> nakilon: I hope it at least isn't allowed to connect to outbound smtp, because someone attempting to send mail (even if it fails) is the quickest way to get people angry at your service
11:41:31 <int-e> Reminds me of my favorite bug in a MUD... so, there's money. When you try to pick up more money than you can carry, it'll produce as change the money that you couldn't carry. Now imagine you're overloaded due to another bug... it would produce change corresponding to the amount by which you were overloaded, and give you a negative amount of money, which it conveniently clamped at 0.
11:43:44 <b_jonas> int-e: is there one of these no-javascript whatismyip services that work for ipv6?
11:44:33 <b_jonas> int-e: um... I don't understand that money thing, your statements are a bit unclear
11:44:46 <b_jonas> also, a MUD with weight limit and money that has a weight? weird
11:47:29 <b_jonas> no, I probably just played too few MUDs
11:47:37 <b_jonas> so I find everything weird
11:47:42 <int-e> it had banks, so you didn't have to carry all your riches around at all times
11:48:36 <b_jonas> int-e: let me guess. if you die, you lose half or all your cash but keep the money in the bank, so you have to find an ATM to deposit and withdraw money often as insurance, and the ATM's interface is very annoying
11:49:23 <int-e> Normal scenario: You have 1kg capacity left to carry. You pick up 2kg of coins. So that would put you 1kg over the limit. So the code would produce change making up 1kg of coins and leave that in the room.
11:49:54 <int-e> Bug scenario: You're 1kg over capacity. You pick up 2kg of coins. So the code produced 3kg coins of change and left that in the room
11:50:08 <int-e> while the -1kg of coins that you'd get in this exchange went poof.
11:51:05 <fizzie> b_jonas: `dig -6 +short myip.opendns.com @resolver1.opendns.com aaaa` works for me.
11:51:18 * int-e is actually simplifying because the real combination of bugs was way too convoluted.
12:02:08 <b_jonas> fizzie: wow, one with a name server interface, that's interesting
12:02:58 <b_jonas> int-e: ah I see. but it doesn't try to produce different denominations of coins, like silver coins if you can't pick up a whole gold coin or something
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12:04:23 <b_jonas> yeah, that wouldn't even work with a weight limit, because lower denominations are heavier
12:04:30 <b_jonas> or at least relatively heavier
12:05:24 <int-e> b_jonas: right, it would do this separately for each denomination, actually
12:06:57 <b_jonas> now I wonder if there's a currency that has two denominations such that a larger denomination coin or banknote is realtively heavier (in proportion to its nominal value) than a smaller one
12:09:28 <b_jonas> the pre-1990 1 HUF aluminium coin was much lighter than the thick and large 2 HUF that's made of normal metals
12:11:08 <b_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coins_of_the_Hungarian_forint#People's_Republic_issues_(1949-1989) says the pre-1990 aluminium 1 HUF coin weighs 1.4 g and the pre-1990 2 HUF coin weighs 5.0 g
12:11:40 <b_jonas> apparently 5.0 g is the figure of some older coin of 2 HUF denomination
12:11:47 <b_jonas> but still it's an example for what I was looking for
12:14:35 <b_jonas> though perhaps a heavy coin compared to a lighter banknote might also be an example
12:14:52 <b_jonas> or, for that matter, two different coins with the same denomination is sort of a stupid example
12:17:19 <fizzie> The pre-Euro Finnish markka *almost* had that, but not quite: the variant of the 50p coin introduced in 1990 weighed 3.3g, while the 1 FIM coin that stayed current up to 1993 was 6.1g, which is just slightly too light to count.
12:18:37 <fizzie> (They were kind of in the process of making them lighter, but staggered the introduction of new coins.)
12:22:22 <fizzie> Oh, there's an actual example too: between 1977-1982 or so, the new (aluminium) 5p coin was just 0.8g, while the older (aluminium-bronze) 10p coin was a whole 3g.
12:27:16 <b_jonas> I think back when the pre-1990 10 and 20 HUF banknotes still existed, even though they were rare because of the pre-1990 10 and 20 HUF coins, the 10 HUF banknote was lighter than the 20 HUF coin
12:28:58 <b_jonas> I mean they were both used as money, obviously copies still exist in collections
12:32:57 <b_jonas> one thing the MNB managed to do correctly so far is that old forint coins and banknotes can be exchanged in post offices for face value for quite a long time after they're removed from circulation
12:33:20 <nakilon> soviet 1 kopeika was weighting exaclty 1 gramm
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12:34:26 <b_jonas> I think I thought that was the normal way how you replace coins and banknotes, and later I learned that a few years ago when the swedish krona coins and notes got replaced, you could exchange them for only a very short time; I also know that you can't exchange finnish marka anymore
12:34:56 <b_jonas> nakilon: "same" as in they weigh exactly 1 gramm, or they weigh exactly 1 gramm per kopek of face value?
12:35:40 <b_jonas> are they made of ordinary metals?
12:35:52 <nakilon> https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91S7NIA1fhL._SS400_.jpg
12:36:45 <nakilon> that metal color was red, probably had some copper in it, the higher coins were not
12:37:24 <nakilon> these photos show the color better: https://www.amazon.com/USSR-Coins/s?k=USSR+Coins
12:37:41 <b_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_ruble#Coins_3
12:38:31 <b_jonas> (and yes, ordinary metals)
12:38:49 <nakilon> 1 Ruble was cool, the largest and the heaviest coin, but was rare
12:39:44 <nakilon> wikipedia page table fucks up colors
12:43:03 <nakilon> then when Rubles were changed to Grivnyas the 2 kop. coin was of pure aluminium for who knows why for several years
12:43:35 <nakilon> it didn't shine and you could draw dark lines with it like with a pencil, it was awful
12:47:06 <b_jonas> nakilon: it's because aluminium became cheap because of industry developments, and it's light so suitable as cash back when people payed more with cash than now because bank cards were rare or nonexistent, while ordinary coin metals like copper/nickel/zinc/tin/manganese/iron didn't become cheaper
12:47:32 <b_jonas> in the past, aluminum would have been too expensive for cheap coins
12:47:33 <nakilon> the proportial weight was cool in the way that you could just mix all the 1 2 3 and 5 and the total weight in grams would be equal to its price
12:49:32 <nakilon> I won't call aluminium cheap -- in 90s all the aluminium on streets was stolen and sold, all the rods, all the wires even
12:49:55 <b_jonas> nakilon: yes, but the same applies to copper
12:50:14 <b_jonas> iron is the only metal cheap enough to avoid that
12:50:24 <nakilon> if some alcoholic gets into your garden he steals all the aluminium wires that were commonly used to wire plants to vertical rods
12:51:25 <b_jonas> and even iron can be stolen if there's a large amount together, which happened with railway transformers and cables and railway rails, no matter that it often shocks the thieves
12:52:07 <b_jonas> a lot of bronze statues got stolen
12:52:14 <b_jonas> nakilon: yeah, that might the reason
12:52:29 <b_jonas> and rails might be worth more than their metal
12:52:52 <b_jonas> because they're very standardized so easy to reuse and hard to trace
12:53:00 <nakilon> there is a diggers' hobby to find WW2 tanks and ammunition
12:53:15 <nakilon> the whole tank sells well as an iron
12:53:23 <nakilon> but usually it's only tracks
12:53:33 <nakilon> broken tracks that were abandoned
12:55:09 <b_jonas> as for that, you know how people say that cash is untracable? I wonder how long it will stay that way. a lot of cash is handled in vending machines and banks who already inspect all the banknotes in interesting electronic ways to catch counterfeats and remove damaged or old banknotes from circulation. I think from a technical point it would be easy for banks and vending machines to read the unique
12:55:15 <b_jonas> serial number from each banknote, so it's only a legal and political question for when banks start to do that for most banknote cash transactions and collect the data to a shared serial database.
12:55:53 <b_jonas> and technologically it even gets easier, because once banks do that, new banknotes can be printed with serial numbers in a format that's easier for machines to read, and then more vending machines can read them
12:56:02 <nakilon> not sure about rails -- you can't just meld them together in the way no one would notice -- they are numbered and periodically checked with ultrasound
12:56:40 <nakilon> cash never was untraceable, they are all numbered
12:56:43 <b_jonas> I don't really understand the political side, but I think it would be easy to introduce by scope creep: first say that it's supposedly only against things that everyone hates: counterfeits and money laundering.
12:57:14 <nakilon> the trace is just lost when you use cash without a cash register
12:57:39 <nakilon> like... enter some shop and ask them for exchange
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12:58:19 <b_jonas> then extend to catch money used for services that are clearly illegal and that I won't name here, then to services that can technically be done legally but most payment providers will ban you for it, then to things that ebay bans, then to trace things that youtube demonetizes you for, then to catch large scale tax evasion in construction industry, then finally to catch small scale tax evasion for
12:58:25 <b_jonas> ordinary businesses and individuals.
12:58:39 <nakilon> oh I mean not just cash register but ATMs
12:58:42 <b_jonas> nakilon: yes, but you don't need to trace every transaction perfectly, you just need to trace enough of it until it becomes hard to use
12:58:47 <nakilon> cash registers don't scan numbers
12:58:58 <b_jonas> yes, ATMs too, not just banks and vending machines
12:59:46 <b_jonas> banks are already pushing for people to use these fancy new ATMs where you can insert banknotes and it scans them without manual intervention and pays the money on your bank account, so you can use ATMs in both directions
12:59:55 <b_jonas> all this applies to banknotes only, not coins, but that's not a problem
13:01:01 <b_jonas> so I think if such large scale tracing isn't done yet, it will be in two decades
13:01:14 <b_jonas> and cash will no longer count as untracable
13:01:40 <nakilon> when I tell someone about the data mining and stuff and the persons laughs "no one stole anything from me, ahaha, you are paranoid, I am smart, ahaha" -- I wish I could someone telepathically make that person understand the amount of stupidity I see in them
13:02:21 <b_jonas> that said many of the people who mention this usually contrast it with payment methods from bank cards and bank accounts, and cryptocurrency, so they do have a valid point that currently cash is less tracable than other common payment methods
13:02:21 <nakilon> maybe the language needs some words for illiteracy measurement
13:02:55 <nakilon> the virus easily made people switch to card, even me
13:04:29 <nakilon> but they also love to demonstrate in stores: "hey people around me, look! I pay with phone! look I pay with watches!" -- not even understanding that it's absolutely opposite from being handy, and they spend much more time paying in this way than it was using cash because the device battery dies or it's just lagging, etc.
13:07:50 <nakilon> it's important to understand that they don't believe in things not just because they didn't get any true evidence of stuff but purely because of stubbornness because in fact no evidence in the world would change their minds, even if Zukerberg would say "dudes, I was stealing, I was fooling", they would say "we don't give a shit" just because
13:07:50 <nakilon> admitting that they were always wrong would be too butthurting
13:08:14 <nakilon> I just feel to much disgust to this phenomenon
13:08:51 <b_jonas> the "pay with phone" thing I don't understand. I carry with me three important items: a wallet of money, a mobile phone, and my home keys. If a pickpocket steals them from me, I'd rather they not steal two at the same time, because I can use the others to ask for help, eg. I can use phone to call my relatives who have a spare key or use money for the same, if money is stolen I go home with keys and grab
13:08:57 <b_jonas> spare money or card, so I keep the three separately. paying with phone seems like you put your bank card and your phone in the same place, ready to be stolen together.
13:09:45 <b_jonas> (well, in reality it's five important items that I should keep separately, but I simply can't figure out how to keep five things separately and easy to reach and hard to pickpocket, so they just go in four locations)
13:10:02 <nakilon> I realised that people are fools not because they were not told the truth but purely because it's their level of illiteracy and arrogance when even the "I worked for Facebook" argument was absolutely nothing for them
13:10:38 <nakilon> yeah I switched to topic, sorry
13:10:59 <nakilon> the topic of tracking the people is just what annoys me
13:12:21 <b_jonas> I really wish I could solve this, but there seems to be no easy solution. if I keep anything really important in my backpack, I'm afraid it gets stolen. if I keep anything in my shirt or coat, I'll misplace it. that leaves my jeans and a small belt loop bag. jean back pockets are limited: most things would get damaged and/or would be inconvenient to sit on, so I only store one of the five things there.
13:12:27 <b_jonas> that leaves a small bag and two front pockets for four items.
13:12:46 <b_jonas> perhaps I should try to get a second belt loop bag. I have worn such for a compact camera occasionally.
13:13:02 <nakilon> when they say "no one stole from me anything" they are smiling like if the demonstrating own illiteracy was something to be proud of
13:13:53 <nakilon> and they don't even care if there is a one person like you who is disgusted because all other people around that they are carefully filtering believe that everything is ok
13:14:45 <nakilon> what about inside pockets?
13:16:31 <b_jonas> nakilon: inside pockets are in the jacket, which I can replace or not wear some day and won't think of moving items from it
13:16:58 <b_jonas> I (usually) don't forget moving items when switching jeans
13:17:44 <nakilon> there are freaks who implant credit cards under their skin
13:18:11 <nakilon> there should be anonymous-friendly yet useful implants
13:18:21 <b_jonas> I should probably consider storing my keys in my backpack, and storing IDs in my right jean pocket where I normally have the keys
13:18:34 <nakilon> or was it a guy who implanted a metro ticket
13:21:04 <nakilon> in the apartments where I live people are taught to use the same device to open their house doors and enter the metro
13:22:18 <nakilon> while the metro (subway, whatever) was ALWAYS known to be stealing the data -- the WiFi ALWAYS had the broken certificates and mobile devices tell you that ut NO ONE cares and millions of people use the wifi every day
13:23:26 <nakilon> even after articles where dudes have sniffed the wifi traffic to see that there are data flying around that tracks every wifi user with such attributes like phone number, estimated age, estimated salary, estimated home and job locations, education level, etc.
13:25:00 <nakilon> and to see that they are tracking this it wasn't even needed to hack their databases -- it's only what was leaking to the wifi lan; the metro tracks every wifi user about where he lives, works, studies, what's his family status, etc. -- it was all discovered and no one still cares
13:26:23 <nakilon> people are still using the Mosgortrans Wifi that is in metro and buses, not caring at all when the device says "dude the certificates are invalid", and so the Mosgortrans that is already exposed several times to track the data clearly can read all the traffic but no one cares
13:28:48 <nakilon> so now this company is partnering with companies who build new apartments -- they are now offering the way to pay for metro with the keys, so no metro doesn't need to estimate your location -- they have your personal data directly, knowing which flat you own, your full identity
13:31:48 <nakilon> this is a sample sniffed packed https://dpaste.org/YBED/slim
13:32:41 <nakilon> here is another view https://tproger.ru/s3/uploads/2018/04/hash.jpg
13:33:08 <nakilon> they even track if you are married
13:37:47 <nakilon> the articles even explain that there are standard hacking utilities that you can use in the way that you just stalk the person from one wagon to another until you identify his MAC or you can make it faster by filtering by model/laptop model that is also tracked
13:38:32 <nakilon> when you identify the person the metro wifi gives you this person's phone number and all this datamined data
13:42:21 <nakilon> did anyone make any conclusions when these articles were published on the most popular IT-related website of the country that everyone knows? nope. people are absolutely okay with that come company tracks everything about them -- they just say "so what? how can they use it against me? they can't take money from my pocket, ahaha" and not even the
13:42:21 <nakilon> fact that they read all their traffic, i.e. email, etc., makes any sense to them
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15:11:51 <esolangs> [[BIT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85674&oldid=77824 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+85) Add implementation from website, fix cats
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15:30:09 <nakilon> should I rename "Esolang categories intersector" into "Esolang cats intersector"
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15:42:14 <esolangs> [[S3C (sssc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85675&oldid=85669 * Spargle * (+0) /* Links: */
15:44:36 <esolangs> [[Common-S3C]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85676&oldid=85573 * Spargle * (+0) /* Links: */
15:51:03 <esolangs> [[Common-S3C]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85677&oldid=85676 * Spargle * (+0) /* Links: */
15:51:50 <esolangs> [[S3C (sssc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85678&oldid=85675 * Spargle * (+0) /* Links: */
15:52:10 <fungot> fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or >, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [, bfbot =, velik \.
15:52:21 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
15:52:35 <perlbot> oerjan: Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or >, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
15:54:30 <HackEso> prefixes Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or >, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
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15:58:37 <oerjan> `le/rn prefixes//Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
15:58:37 <fungot> oerjan: but bsmnt_bot isn't throttled, but not enough to put pics with an alpha value, there's problems with every language is interpreted
15:58:41 <HackEso> Relearned 'prefixes': Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
15:59:30 <oerjan> ^def prefixes ul (fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [, bfbot =, velik \.)S
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15:59:40 <fungot> fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [, bfbot =, velik \.
15:59:48 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
16:00:46 <oerjan> ^def prefixes ul (Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [, bfbot =, velik \.)S
16:00:52 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [, bfbot =, velik \.
16:01:07 <perlbot> oerjan: Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or >, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
16:04:50 <oerjan> perlbot learn prefixes are Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
16:04:50 <fungot> oerjan: ratty is the name ' nine inch nails crowd?' as ' sine' should pronounce ' char'...?
16:04:51 <perlbot> oerjan: Stored prefixes as Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
16:05:08 <perlbot> oerjan: Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
16:06:07 * FireFly can't tell if it's supposed to be an escaped dot or verbatim backslash dot
16:06:12 <perlbot> oerjan: Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
16:06:17 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [, bfbot =, velik \.
16:06:25 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
16:08:38 <oerjan> ^def prefixes ul (Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.)S
16:08:50 <oerjan> ok now i hope they are identical.
16:10:35 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
16:12:58 <fizzie> It sure is a good thing we've got balanced parentheses in prefixes.
16:13:52 <b_jonas> FireFly: it's a backslash, the dot ends the sentence
16:13:56 <velik> available commands: ["rasel", "morse", "demorse", "ruby"]; usage help: \help <cmd>
16:14:38 <b_jonas> oerjan: oh, it was under prefixes, not prefixe? sorry
16:15:19 <b_jonas> oerjan: oh, it was under prefixes, not prefixe? sorry
16:15:25 <HackEso> unless essential for the entry‘s humor, \ they should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation
16:16:36 <b_jonas> \ruby system %q(ls /tmp; df); # FireFly: this is the latest command, an evaluator
16:17:21 <b_jonas> \ruby system %q(ls /tmp; df); # FireFly: this is the latest command, an evaluator
16:20:00 <oerjan> fizzie: i lobbied for jconn to get that prefix for that precise reason
16:20:32 <oerjan> before that i used bf. it was painful.
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16:38:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * BurningApparatus * New user account
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17:02:43 <esolangs> [[A:;]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85679&oldid=63932 * OrichalcumCosmonaut * (+203) re-add fizzbuzz example that was accidentally deleted
17:03:30 <esolangs> [[A:;]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85680&oldid=85679 * OrichalcumCosmonaut * (+4) make the fizzbuzz section header a link like the others
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17:39:35 <esolangs> [[Talk:Pointless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85681&oldid=63537 * Traveller * (+461) Reflection on a property formerly held to be true.
17:41:38 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, but were there any such keyboards used for purposes other than punching holes in cards? (When you have constrainted space and not many keys, it might be helpful)
17:42:03 <esolangs> [[Pointless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85682&oldid=79210 * Traveller * (+66)
17:42:35 <esolangs> [[Pointless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85683&oldid=85682 * Traveller * (+1)
17:46:58 <zzo38> (Just, I don't really like the existing methods of text entry on telephone keypads, and I think that Hollerith chording would be better way of entering text on numeric keypads. If you have a full keyboard that is better, but that won't work when you do not have a full keyboard)
17:51:25 <riv> Hollerith chording?
17:52:28 <esolangs> [[Talk:Pointless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85684&oldid=85681 * Traveller * (+230)
17:53:51 <zzo38> riv: Meaning a numeric keypad (and another key for a space); if you push a number by itself then it makes a number, but if you push in combination with - & or other numbers then you can make alphabets/punctuations.
17:54:08 <riv> how does it work?
17:56:34 <zzo38> riv: The possible combinations are shown in the picture: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Blue-punch-card-front-horiz.png So, pushing 0 and 2 together makes "T", and pushing & and 1 together makes "A".
17:57:25 <esolangs> [[Pointless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85685&oldid=85683 * Traveller * (+117)
17:58:39 <riv> this would take a long time to learn to use
17:58:46 <riv> and could be bad fpr fingers
18:01:06 <zzo38> I dislike the more common methods though (such as pushing the numbers until it comes up the letters that you want and waiting for delays or explicitly skipping)
18:06:12 <zzo38> I also dislike touch screen
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19:16:39 * oerjan is playing with doomsdays and was checking if he got it right
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20:05:17 <esolangs> [[S3C (sssc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85686&oldid=85678 * Spargle * (-84) /* Links: */
20:05:59 <esolangs> [[Common-S3C]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85687&oldid=85677 * Spargle * (-84) /* Links: */
20:06:52 <esolangs> [[Common-S3C]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85688&oldid=85687 * Spargle * (-4) /* The world's stupidest language. */
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20:47:30 <esolangs> [[S3C (sssc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85689&oldid=85686 * Spargle * (-4) /* The world's stupidest language. */
21:29:32 <riv> https://i.postimg.cc/q4nqtWRt/s-l1600.jpg zzo38
21:49:55 <nakilon> looks like scrambled rubik's cude
21:54:42 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Skelozard * New user account
21:58:16 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85690&oldid=85659 * Skelozard * (+146) /* Introductions */
21:58:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:PokBattle]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85691 * Skelozard * (+205) Created page with "I've created a [https://github.com/Educorreia932/PokeBattle Python interpreter] for PokBattle. I tried to stay as close as possible to the original specification and it has..."
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23:02:26 <wib_jonas> oh great. ISP is doing weird things again. for like 20 minutes the whole internet connection was down. now it's mostly down, but a few ranges of hosts like this webchat are reachable.
23:07:12 <wib_jonas> perlbot eval "or at least I think it's reachable,"; "pong"
23:12:56 <wib_jonas> direct IRC connections and most other hosts still don't work
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23:40:58 <b_jonas> well I think now it's working, after power cycling the cable modem router the second time
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