01:43:26 > PostScript 01:43:28 error: Data constructor not in scope: PostScript 01:43:40 there should be GetScript and PutScript 01:43:51 and HeadScript 01:45:49 and DeleteScript 01:53:25 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:54:12 whee! finally solved that dread loopy puzzle! 01:56:19 anyone remember this game: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/2k.png <-- yep! 01:56:31 the end of that loopy puzzle was a bit fascinating. 01:56:48 yay 01:57:33 for a long time i'd only solved the bottom left completely, but there were many other separate regions where i gradually got information, but which seemed to stay in superposition of 2 or 3 options :) 01:57:41 did it go clockwise starting in the top right? 01:57:42 er, *bottom right 01:57:56 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:58:05 hmm. that's a no, I guess 01:58:20 it was nakilon's puzzle in case that's not clear 01:58:51 That's what I thought. 01:59:21 also, there was this spot i'd noticed in the middle right (and mentioned yesterday) which had a plausible uniqueness exploitation almost like the one you linked 01:59:34 oerjannow you can safely check the screenshots ) 02:00:01 and finally, i got to the point where a counting argument connected that to something else in the upper right 02:00:36 do you mean the horizontal line section that could be joined to bottom and top only once? 02:00:58 so i chased it across the upper right until it reached the large near-island in the upper left 02:01:12 I thought about it and that's why I asked the question about do puzzles have to have a single solution, but then I've found something elsewhere in the bottom right and it solved the thing without the exploit 02:02:06 which showed how that island connected to the rest. and then i traced that information from both connection points - until i found a trivial contradiction near the middle left border 02:03:36 and once that trivial contradiction had been used, the _entire board unraveled with only simple rules_ 02:03:54 so it was, as usual, something simple i had missed for a long time 02:05:20 (the lower left took a little longer to unravel than the rest, but only because the board was zoomed so large i couldn't see all the large loop parts instantly) 02:06:52 on the lower left I did several mistakes and had to backtrace a lot, but the solution was somewhere in the very middle, where when you enable one line it would make the cycle of 3 and once you disable it it starts solving down and then left 02:07:17 nakilon: it was sort of horizontal section with a diamond between, if that's what you mean 02:07:37 oerjan it was like 4 horizontal lines connected 02:07:45 to the right from center and maybe 1 up 02:08:32 argh let me see if i can find it without backtracking everything 02:09:13 this https://i.imgur.com/x9phtJ7.png 02:11:05 no, not that 02:11:41 ok then ..D 02:12:30 it was further down and to the right 02:13:01 once in the upper right I used to solve a portion of trying both enable and disable one line 02:13:20 then I screenshoted both results and applied what was common 02:13:28 probably it helped 02:13:44 *by trying 02:14:34 if I was making an AI I would use this trick 02:14:52 i did try similar things (without screenshotting) 02:15:08 it kind of makes possible to solve further moves before solving the current one 02:17:27 it wasn't exactly horizontal, now i've looked at it 02:18:35 I now wonder if the trick could be applied to other things I was solving earlier 02:21:47 I feel like it should be somewhere on this wiki but the closest I've found right now is https://www.chessprogramming.org/Killer_Heuristic 02:21:57 though in chess the order matters 02:21:59 ok your screenshots were indeed not very spoilery :P 02:22:20 the last one looked a bit similar to my endgame 02:22:31 with bottom left remaining 02:30:07 i once wrote a postscript thing to make a certain fractal <-- hm i vaguely recall doing mandelbrot in postscript, on an actual printer. but it was only black and white and i think it was dog slow. 02:30:18 [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86707&oldid=86704 * KakkoiiChris * (+15700) /* brainfuck */ Added syntax highlighting 02:30:45 although i might be misremembering whether i actually wrote the program myself 02:31:50 if i did, it was the most interesting postscript program i wrote directly 02:32:22 [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86708&oldid=86707 * KakkoiiChris * (+60) /* Links */ Added GitHub repository link 02:32:56 i suppose mandelbrot is a bad fractal to choose if you want to use postscript's rendering strengths :P 02:36:14 [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86709&oldid=86708 * KakkoiiChris * (+126) /* brainfuck */ Added implementation note to top 02:53:02 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 02:53:19 -!- impomatic has joined. 02:57:34 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 02:57:53 -!- impomatic has joined. 03:03:03 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 03:03:19 -!- impomatic has joined. 03:04:48 [[Ark]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86710&oldid=86438 * Spargle * (+194) /* Ark: The esolang that is actually kind of useful. */ 03:07:34 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 03:07:51 -!- impomatic has joined. 04:04:51 sounds like a fun challenge though 04:30:35 [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86711&oldid=86709 * KakkoiiChris * (+8147) /* About */ Elaborated on the description of Minim, and added a brief history of the language's syntax 04:31:46 [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86712&oldid=86711 * KakkoiiChris * (-12) /* History */ Removed one layer of nesting from the History section 04:32:55 [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86713&oldid=86712 * KakkoiiChris * (+24) /* History */ Added separators between each version 04:39:00 [[Brainfuck implementations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86714&oldid=85173 * KakkoiiChris * (+139) /* Normal implementations */ Added link to Minim implementation example program 04:43:05 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86715&oldid=86569 * KakkoiiChris * (+3467) /* Minim */ Added syntax highlighting 04:47:56 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86716&oldid=86715 * KakkoiiChris * (+0) /* Implementations */ Fixed alphabetical ordering of Minim 04:50:30 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86717&oldid=86716 * KakkoiiChris * (-1288) /* Minim */ Removed line numbers and header comment 05:50:53 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 06:01:42 -!- SGautam has joined. 06:01:55 -!- SGautam has quit (Client Quit). 06:02:21 -!- SGautam has joined. 06:12:23 -!- hendursaga has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:14:21 -!- hendursaga has joined. 06:19:58 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 06:20:34 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 06:21:12 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 06:43:28 [[Backrooms]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86718 * Ch44d * (+19399) Add backrooms 06:48:50 -!- spruit11_ has joined. 06:49:43 -!- spruit11_ has quit (Client Quit). 06:50:43 -!- spruit11_ has joined. 06:51:11 -!- spruit11 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:51:24 -!- spruit11_ has quit (Client Quit). 06:51:43 -!- spruit11 has joined. 07:18:35 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:19:38 [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * KakkoiiChris * uploaded "[[File:MinimLogo.png]]" 07:26:09 [[Backrooms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86720&oldid=86718 * Ch44d * (+171) fix formatting problems and add more rule info. 07:32:11 [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86721&oldid=86713 * KakkoiiChris * (+380) Added logo and info box to top 07:37:06 [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86722&oldid=86721 * KakkoiiChris * (+7) Moved infobox and logo 07:43:33 is there anything like a CLI that would find the most common substrings? like some debug info for compression algorithms 07:44:10 I would apply it to the problem I want to solve -- finding the meaningful substrings in an array of strings 07:44:44 such as... #haskell #haskell_de #learnhaskell should tell me that "there is probably a word 'haskell'" 07:45:21 it's important to not say that "haske is probably a word" 07:45:48 no matter that this substring is even more common, it's not a full word 07:46:46 I've coded some thing, ran it for an hour or two and then saw the results aren't good; I'm missing something 07:47:48 for example, even if there are haskell_es and haskell_en it should not be confused to think that there is a word haskell_e 07:48:20 my approach was going down from the longest substrings and this became a flaw 07:50:08 that sounds like an interesting problem 07:50:41 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:50:55 the problem with running LZW on it and then checking frequency in the dictionary is it wouldn't respect word boundaries 07:51:12 but maybe you could do a modified version that does respect word boundaries 07:52:20 there should be some euristic 07:52:46 something that human intuitively applies to find the common words in such arrays 07:52:53 i dont know how humans do it 07:53:23 maybe it could be done with common pairs, 'ha' happens a lot, 'as' happens a lot 08:00:40 i'd say, strings that end at a word boundary probably are ends of words 08:02:56 -!- riv has quit (Quit: Leaving). 08:03:56 it should find the ends when substrings are concatenated, the '_' is rarely used in my data 08:05:24 -!- hendursa1 has joined. 08:08:38 -!- hendursaga has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 10:03:02 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 10:03:19 -!- impomatic has joined. 10:07:34 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 10:07:50 -!- impomatic has joined. 10:32:32 -!- arseniiv has joined. 10:36:40 -!- jryans has quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM). 10:36:41 -!- Deewiant has quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM). 10:36:41 -!- craigoverend[m] has quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM). 10:36:43 -!- fizzie[m] has quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM). 10:39:39 -!- jryans has joined. 10:47:59 -!- Deewiant has joined. 10:47:59 -!- craigoverend[m] has joined. 10:48:11 -!- fizzie[m] has joined. 11:51:13 -!- SGautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 12:23:32 -!- wib_jonas has joined. 12:51:01 -!- SGautam has joined. 13:05:29 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:32:02 -!- simcop2387 has changed nick to mycroft2387. 13:32:37 -!- mycroft2387 has changed nick to simcop2387. 13:46:17 -!- hendursa1 has quit (Quit: hendursa1). 13:46:48 -!- hendursaga has joined. 13:47:40 -!- impomatic has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:49:03 -!- impomatic has joined. 13:58:02 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 13:58:21 -!- impomatic has joined. 14:02:34 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 14:02:51 -!- impomatic has joined. 14:15:11 -!- impomatic has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:16:53 "virtualenv" is such a presumptious command name 14:18:16 Or was, hmm. 14:19:03 -!- Koen_ has joined. 14:22:07 (python3 -m venv otoh is a bit too obscure) 14:22:40 Reminds me of some other tools where the Debian packages have had to rename the binaries because of excessive genericity. But I can't remember the examples. 14:22:48 "code" is a little bit in that direction. 14:23:05 (That's VS Code.) 14:23:15 fizzie: "nc". there are two or three versions of netcat, and one norton commander clone with "nc" as the name. and there are some more besides that. 14:23:40 I don't recall the others right now 14:23:47 I think there were two things called "rename" at some point 14:24:18 and it gets worse with clashes with windows commands: "find", "convert", "head" cause common conflicts 14:24:21 fizzie: I remember the fight over the 'git' package name and that's not even a common word (though it is a word) 14:24:49 Oh yeah, the Northern Commander 14:24:51 oh, and "type" 14:25:15 "find" and "type" are the same style of clash: they both have an ancient DOS meaning (grep and cat respectively) and an ancient unix meaning 14:25:23 I'd complain about "type" but "cat" really isn't a better name 14:25:56 "convert" is both an obscure DOS utility such that the command name still exists on windows for some reason, and one of the public binaries of ImageMagick and its clones; I usually alias the latter to im-convert 14:26:25 "head" is the unix utility conflicting with some HTTP-related thingy that installs binaries named HEAD, GET, POST, I don't recall what 14:27:23 some perl thingy... lwp-request 14:27:57 oh yeah, "halt". systemd installs a "halt" that does something confusingly different from the traditional "halt", and renames the traditional "halt" to "poweroff". I debugged that one for month, I just couldn't figure out why the new debian couldn't turn off the power on my computer. 14:28:00 curse systemd 14:28:06 I use HEAD sometimes, never GET nor POST... 14:28:20 perlbot help head 14:28:21 wib_jonas: head http://url/; returns the response code and server type from a HEAD request for a particular url. 14:28:44 # cat ~/bin/halt \ #! /bin/bash \ echo try poweroff 14:28:56 perlbot head http://ip6.me/api/ 14:28:58 wib_jonas: http://ip6.me/api/: 200: OK. Apache/2.4.46 (FreeBSD) OpenSSL/1.1.1d-freebsd 14:29:34 Yeah, somehow `halt` leaves the computer switched on in a state that requires a BIOS-level hard or soft reboot (ctrl-alt-del works, IIRC) 14:30:17 oh, and "date" and "time" are also DOS vs unix conflicts 14:30:34 it's just one of many nuisances that come with systemd 14:30:38 though now I just use my datei and dateu aliases on both unix and windows 14:30:46 too much magic, really. "where are my core dumps?" 14:32:20 then there's "shutdown" and, indeed, "pushd", which are pairs of commands that serve the same main purpose on windows and unix, but are invoked differently 14:32:29 (not cluttering the fs with year-old core dumpos is probably an improvement for most users though... but I disabled that thing because the whole journalctl business is too awkward) 14:33:08 wib_jonas: This remeinds me of a previous discussion about git's and mercurial's UIs. 14:33:11 Of course Debian also has the "alternatives" system, which I think handles the cases like `nc` and `vi`, where there's several versions of a tool that does similar thing. 14:33:14 reminds 14:33:27 Too german... :-/ 14:33:48 fizzie: and their new commands, such as sensible-browser 14:33:58 I think they have something like interactive-editor too 14:34:36 afaik debian isn't using alternatives for netcat though, the two or three different netcat versions just conflict with each other and can't be installed together 14:34:45 . o O ( sensible-browser -> /bin/false ) 14:35:49 it is used for vi and X, and has the result that's hilarious in hindsight only, that if you accidentally uninstall X.org then try to run the startx command, then it does nothing, exits with 0, and gives no error message, because somehow debian alternatives decided that if you have neither X.org or XFree86 installed then true is a suitable fallback 14:35:50 eh, the alternatives system isn't bad 14:36:02 that's one I only debugged for hours 14:36:06 https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-files.html "Two different packages must not install programs with different functionality but with the same filenames. If this case happens, one of the programs must be renamed. The maintainers should report this to the debian-devel mailing list and try to find a consensus about which program will have to be renamed. If a consensus cannot be reached, 14:36:08 /both/ programs must be renamed." 14:36:34 (If they provide "the same functionality but different implementations", then it's handled via alternatives or "conflicts" dependency entries.) 14:36:50 fizzie: yes, and that's the policy currently broken with "netcat". not with "nc", mind you. 14:37:56 the two versions of netcat are both imperfect enough that you may want to have both installed to complement each other's mistakes, but you can't, so you just give up and try to learn socat or something 14:39:41 (one of them is so old it can't do ipv6; the other one is newer but lost the ability to listen and let the kernel choose the port number) 15:12:22 wib_jonas: Oh, checking package names, they are: netcat-openbsd, and netcat-traditional ... so which one is the old one? ;-) (the former knows IPv6 so that answers that question) 15:40:23 [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86723&oldid=84248 * Orisphera * (+1) /* Ideas related to esoteric operating systems, esoteric processors and esoteric computers */ 15:43:21 -!- impomatic has joined. 15:46:33 -!- delta23 has joined. 15:47:34 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 15:47:51 -!- impomatic has joined. 15:53:02 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 15:53:19 -!- impomatic has joined. 15:57:35 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 15:57:52 -!- impomatic has joined. 16:00:36 -!- wib_jonas has quit (Quit: Client closed). 16:06:11 Hm. Brainfuck has the concatenative property: Given any two programs, their juxtaposition is also a program. However, concatenation isn't composition; a wrapper would be needed in order to take outputs from the first program and feed them as inputs to the second program. 16:07:45 If only they composed! But they compose with a wrapper. This reminds me of commutativity; for many things, they don't commute, but they commute with an extra "commutator" term. 16:10:50 -!- riv has joined. 16:43:02 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 16:43:19 -!- impomatic has joined. 16:47:35 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 16:47:53 -!- impomatic has joined. 17:33:27 Terminology question: What do we call it when a language turns unknown identifiers into searches on the filesystem? Like, unknown identifier "foo" becomes an attempt to read foo.sourcecode, or "foo/bar" tries to read foo/bar.sourcecode. 17:44:57 Hmm. Apparently on Fedora there are also two versions of netcat. Openbsd netcat, which is exclusively netcat, and nmap’s netcat, named ncat, which is both ncat and nc. 17:48:05 Also the halt manpage claims that poweroff existed before systemd, but that halt was usually a synonym of it. Not sure what actually halting is ever useful for, though. 17:49:28 Corbin: that is called a shell 17:51:55 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 17:52:12 b_jonas: Yes, shells have this behavior. But I feel like I've seen it, or variations on it, in other languages. I was wondering if it had a name. 18:00:44 sure, matlab/octave does it too 18:01:53 and the rather silly https://metacpan.org/pod/Shell module, which is not really intended to be used seriously. 18:11:53 -!- riv has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:11:57 -!- impomatic has joined. 18:14:23 -!- riv has joined. 18:21:36 -!- imode has joined. 18:36:25 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1). 18:36:41 -!- imode has joined. 18:48:37 [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86724&oldid=86722 * KakkoiiChris * (+1) /* V2 */ Fixed typo 20:00:39 -!- dutch has quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1). 20:02:43 -!- dutch has joined. 20:27:40 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:35:43 -!- delta23 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:36:08 -!- delta23 has joined. 20:46:44 -!- impomatic has joined. 20:46:50 -!- impomatic has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:47:06 -!- impomatic has joined. 21:44:59 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 21:52:17 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 21:52:36 -!- impomatic has joined. 21:56:50 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 21:57:10 -!- impomatic has joined. 21:57:14 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 23:13:34 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic).