00:01:12 hm xkcd updated earlier than usual lately 00:08:08 oerjan: yeah, probably 00:08:15 you're right 00:16:36 -!- sprock has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:16:49 -!- sprock has joined. 00:30:17 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:52:48 `recipe 00:52:50 hicken and \ remaining 1/4 cup of chopped celery and cornstarch. Stir in \ and remaining honey. Repeat with chopped fresh lettuce; \ cheese mixture over baking sheet. Season together and stir meat into egg salt. \ Add the shapes of flour with the corner and sugar in a large \ pan. Serve with peanut oil and almonds. Pour the cake on a bowl, stirring \ occasionally and remove from heat; cook over moderate heat, stirring constantly, \ until the meat is 00:53:52 serve first, then cook again? interesting, recycling food to serve it twice 01:06:14 -!- BusyBeaver42 has joined. 01:17:07 Hi, long time no chat, I'm one of the guys working on the Magic the Gathering most damage without going infinite deck, we are currently implementing the waterfall model (https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Waterfall_Model) 01:17:39 Today we found an infinite that ruins a lot of progress 01:18:03 I would take out the edits one by one until the issue is gone 01:18:12 so I found one 01:18:27 then I put it back and take out from the other side 01:18:28 It would be fixed however if the 'flooding' variant of the waterclocks were Turing Complete 01:18:35 until I find another one 01:19:11 so it's two bisections 01:19:56 where flooding clocks instead of adding their row once when they are triggered, add it X times where X is the number of times the clock was incremented 01:20:01 nakilon: that's not bisection if you do it "one by one" 01:20:09 oerjan, yeah 01:20:23 imagine I said bisect in the first message ) 01:20:29 just doing it from one side, then from another 01:20:29 OKAY 01:21:29 . o O ( But n+1 = n + 1 is splitting n+1 into two parts. ) 01:22:24 oh hi BusyBeaver42 01:22:41 This cause the clocks to explode in value and behave apparently erratically. 01:23:02 hi b_jonas 01:23:51 BusyBeaver42: did you return because of https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=5661 Striking new Beeping Busy Beaver champion, or is this an unrelated renewal of interest? 01:23:51 [[DDR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87339&oldid=65332 * DoggyDogWhirl * (+41) Fixed order of arrows 01:23:55 [[DDR/Python Implementation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87340&oldid=63978 * DoggyDogWhirl * (+60) 01:24:47 [[DDR]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87341&oldid=87339 * DoggyDogWhirl * (+0) 01:25:00 I returned because its now very relevent whether or not the flooding version is TC 01:25:59 we missed a way to set dralnu's crusades up to allow us to halt an infinite computation at an arbitrary point 01:26:06 ais523 needs some pinging for this. 01:26:40 yeah, he'll probably appear within a day 01:26:50 though I think he already thought about that 01:27:19 so we'd need to either only do one BB computation, or cut dralnu's crusade 01:27:51 cutting the crudase makes us the 'flooding' version and we dont know if it is TC 01:28:00 crusade* 01:29:36 I admit don't really understand how the waterfall model comes into this 01:33:01 we set up Xathrid Necromancers according to the waterfall model matrix, Coat of arms keeps the tokens the right size while 2x arcbond keep triggering each other until the computation halts 01:34:07 Dralnu's crusade lets each clock have a triggering creature type that activates the necromancers 01:34:42 so that they dont trigger on each creature dying, just the one 01:34:47 yes, but I can't recall what made that never go infinite. was it a trick with M:tG's infinity rule that makes some infinite loops a draw before you start them? 01:34:55 yeah 01:35:17 unbreakable infinite loops are instant draws 01:35:40 yes, but that would normally still let you deal an unbounded amount of damage depending on the play you choose 01:36:09 which is why the deck is set up that we can't break out of a computation 01:36:26 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:36:35 so if the computation never halts, we can't damage them 01:36:43 yes, but before you set up the loop 01:37:09 can't you set up a loop that will eventually deal an arbitrarily large amount of damage, more than any natural number that I choose? 01:37:49 nope, as computation is bounded by the busy beaver function 01:38:04 I think we had this discussion and I'll just have to go back in the channel logs to find it 01:38:34 oh, is the argument to the busy beaver (of some variant) the number of basic cards you have in the deck or something like that? 01:39:03 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:39:04 like you have to sacrifice a Plains every time you add a state to your machine, and you can't get any other than by drawing them from your deck? 01:39:05 yeah the size of the computation is limited by other resources 01:39:50 or an Island. it's always an Island. nobody would mind sacrificing Plains. 01:40:23 (Arcane Spyglass is a card I love, though it's not really useful for this kind of deck) 01:40:41 We are a bit more efficient than that and can get BB(5->5->5->5->5) or 01:40:47 or so 01:41:00 yeah, so not just the argument to the BB function, but eventually the argument of some fast-growing function 01:41:18 yeah its not BB(infinity) 01:43:38 before the infinite was found we were thinking we could then do more computation, building off of the output from that 01:44:15 and actually do quite a lot of computations actually 01:45:34 but now we either have to switch to the flooding version, or only get the one BB iteration 01:50:16 so we really would like the flooding version to be TC 01:52:04 (Technically we could get away with a bit less than TC, but that's splitting hairs) 01:53:21 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87342&oldid=87105 * Ais523 * (-31752) clear Sandbox 01:54:47 -!- delta23 has joined. 02:22:52 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:30:42 [[Backrooms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87343&oldid=87314 * Razetime * (+4) spelling corrections 02:38:10 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 02:55:35 -!- ais523 has joined. 02:56:11 BusyBeaver42: I'm here, but I still don't have much of an idea of whether it's TC or not – it seems like a hard language to do a TCness proof or disproof for 02:59:31 b_jonas: I think the requirement was to get the opponent's life total as negative as possible, so most loops with a damaging effect in would just set it down to -1 or -2 or so and then stop because you'd won the game 03:00:35 hmm, now I'm reminded of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Xigxag, which is the sort of language which seems very unlikely to be TC and yet it's hard to disprove 03:02:37 flooding Waterfall Model is better-behaved than Xigxag is, so it's more likely to be TC, but presents the same sort of problem in trying to prove it 03:26:06 ais523: ok, if you don't use DMM's group's rule about that then that's another way to avoid some infinite loops, but that doesn't help avoid big finite loops. for that you need a limited resource, such as your deck or your own hit points, and BusyBeaver42 says they have one in that deck 03:32:39 yeah, the short version is we'd get a batch of computations for every sorcery we cast, the cheapest sorcery costs 2 life, and we gain life via 1 red mana, gain red via blue gain blue via white and gain white via green, gain green by drawing black lotus, draw cards with floating dream zubera with some other optimizations in there. 03:34:47 with the 'exchange rate' of those resources improving to the output of the last BB computation, the numbers get astronomical even if the busy beaver function was linear 03:37:35 ais523: one question I have that's maybe slightly easier than TC-ness is is any halting waterfall machine has a halting flooding machine that runs for at least as long 03:38:51 -!- mnr has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:38:55 if you could prove that, I suspect you could prove TCness 03:39:24 I don't think it's even theoretically possible for a sub-TC language to have a busy beaver that grows faster than a TC language 03:40:15 -!- mnrmnaugh has joined. 03:40:35 certainly, it's impossible for a language whose halting problem is decidable to have a busy beaver that grows faster than a TC language's 03:40:36 (but I'm not sure about the possibility of sub-TC but undecidable languages) 03:40:36 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: sorry about my connection). 03:42:11 -!- ais523 has joined. 03:44:07 if you have two languages A and B, B is Turing-complete, and A is computable (i.e. not super-Turing), then BB_A(n) < BB_B(n+k) for some constant k 03:44:24 so it's impossible for a sub-TC language to have a busy beaver function that grows meaningfully faster than that for a TC language 03:45:37 or, hmm, this actually relies on B having some sort of fairly sane string literals 03:45:40 but The Waterfall Model does 03:45:58 otherwise you can create a language with an insane encoding 03:47:30 hmm, interesting 03:50:43 I guess that makes sense, I was hoping for a shortcut, but seems like no such luck 03:57:02 Though we dont need "meaningfully faster" than the BB function. 03:57:49 just "not meaningfully slower" 04:01:59 when it comes to busy beaver functions, there's usually no real difference 04:02:43 We could also potentially have 2 'normal' waterclocks 04:02:48 [[The Language That Explodes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87344 * Ais523 * (+2423) new joke language 04:03:54 [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87345&oldid=86876 * Ais523 * (+79) /* General languages */ +[[The Language That Explodes]] 04:04:34 Though i'm not sure how much that helps with TC 04:05:37 But it certainly can't hurt right? 04:05:58 yes, that would make things easier (although they're probably still too difficult) 04:06:46 what's the precise rule for determining how much gets added to a flooding waterclock? 04:07:11 you mean by? 04:07:48 ah yes, right 04:08:48 when a flooding clock trips, instead of sending 1 copy of its row, it sends X where X is how much it has been incremented since the last time it tripped. 04:09:28 (we are also fine with clocks staying at 0) 04:13:17 I need to go to bed; I may think about it some more, but I can't guarantee that I'll find the answer (it seems like a pretty hard problem, and finding the original version of Waterfall took me years) 04:13:41 it might be interesting to create a page on the wiki about it, in case it attracts attention of any of the esolang experts who don't use IRC (although that's a fairly long shot) 04:15:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: bedtime). 04:18:35 sounds good, thanks 04:38:38 "even if the busy beaver function was linear" => now that's an odd hypothetical 04:39:34 yeah, i mean it would be less than the BB function 04:39:56 but you start chaining arrows together and things get big fast 04:40:28 yes, I know 04:40:50 you mentioned 5->5->5->5->5, that's already big 04:45:40 last year's standard deck got to (42↑↑↑↑42)→(42↑↑↑↑42)→(42↑↑↑↑42)→(42↑↑↑↑42)→50→7 04:45:46 on turn 2 04:46:59 turn 3* 04:48:05 link to the writeup if you are interested 04:48:06 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wjjHXZgGTnI0Qu6-L8pSyz9RZ72XL5xj4FszvHr2eaU/edit?usp=sharing 05:01:10 What rules are you using for "most damage without infinite" Magic: the Gathering, such as: What format and deck restrictions? What is opponent (if any) doing? What are you trying to damage (or does it matter)? Are any state-based actions ignored? etc? 05:16:54 mainly, vintage. opponents deck is 60 wastes, and will act against our interests, we are damaging the opponent, and all rules of MTG are observed the entire time 05:19:10 We've been doing a standard deck every year, though those don't need to go off turn 1 05:20:03 OK. What will be done with random effects (including shuffling)? 05:20:30 we get to pick as this is theoretical max 05:20:40 OK 05:21:01 though the distribution is so skewed that this is the average damage as well 05:26:23 oh and no sideboard 05:27:42 sideboard would basically make the deck 74 cards + a wish 06:35:37 [[Flooding Waterfall Model]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87346 * FortyTwo * (+1826) Rough draft of flooding waterclocks 06:36:46 -!- BusyBeaver42 has quit (Quit: Client closed). 06:50:29 -!- spruit11_ has joined. 06:54:10 -!- spruit11 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 07:02:50 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 07:05:26 someone here asked how to move the edge around block in own analogue of dot 07:05:27 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:05:31 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 07:06:13 judging from -v verbose flag I assume dot creates fake vertices along the edges to optimize them 07:08:23 looks like 1500 vertices is too much for him ..( https://i.imgur.com/LZGkV8T.png 07:09:36 1500 vertices and 9000 edges 07:46:31 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:52:32 -!- hendursaga has quit (Quit: hendursaga). 07:53:00 -!- hendursaga has joined. 08:06:01 -!- hendursa1 has joined. 08:08:12 -!- hendursaga has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:12:59 -!- riv has quit (Quit: Leaving). 08:33:22 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 09:07:58 probably I didn't have to invent a wheel of reducing the graph few months ago (if you remember, it was about homebrew deps tree) 09:08:09 https://graphviz.org/pdf/tred.1.pdf -- this thing seems to be installed with graphviz 09:25:17 -!- hendursa1 has quit (Quit: hendursa1). 09:25:46 -!- hendursaga has joined. 09:42:10 -!- Guest710 has joined. 09:55:56 -!- Guest710 has quit (Quit: Client closed). 10:15:43 BusyBeaver42: and your deck is limited to 60 cards? 10:16:24 "sideboard would basically make the deck 74 cards + a wish" ah, that answers it. so yes, 60 cards. 10:47:34 -!- riv has joined. 12:42:32 -!- orichalcumcosmon has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:57:57 also it is in Mathematica https://reference.wolfram.com/language/ref/TransitiveReductionGraph.html 13:18:50 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:26:16 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:45:06 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 14:36:22 -!- hanif has joined. 14:51:39 -!- dbohdan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:56:13 -!- dbohdan has joined. 15:01:02 -!- dbohdan has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:02:15 -!- dbohdan has joined. 15:10:28 -!- hanif has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:10:48 -!- hanif has joined. 15:14:50 -!- BusyBeaver42 has joined. 15:24:44 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Thesundidntvanish * New user account 15:43:54 [[Headass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87347&oldid=87220 * TheJonyMyster * (+3205) Added Headascii section 15:44:43 [[Headass]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87348&oldid=87347 * TheJonyMyster * (-20) removed unnecessary table title 15:47:22 [[Ark]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87349&oldid=87017 * Spargle * (+188) /* Ark: The esolang that is actually kind of useful. */ 15:49:04 -!- hanif has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:49:08 [[Headass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87350&oldid=87348 * TheJonyMyster * (+311) hello world again 15:55:09 -!- imode has joined. 16:01:51 -!- dyeplexer has joined. 16:02:05 -!- Hooloovoo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:27:27 -!- hanif has joined. 16:32:28 -!- hanif has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:41:37 [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87351&oldid=63921 * Cortex * (-94) bye i guess 16:44:36 -!- BusyBeaver42 has quit (Quit: Client closed). 16:46:59 -!- BusyBeaver42 has joined. 16:49:03 b_jonas yeah both decks are limited to 60 cards 17:33:31 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:34:47 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 17:35:12 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:40:15 [[\ELLOWOS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87352&oldid=87331 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+25) /* Memory */ 17:45:50 [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87353&oldid=87352 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+96) /* Syntax */ 17:54:03 [[YPIMOOMFWAMOOMLWAMOOMNWAMOOMCWAMOOMFWAMOOMSWAMOOMTWAMOOMCWAMOOMB]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87354&oldid=87153 * Martsadas * (+1307) 17:54:06 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Quit: leaving). 18:30:00 good news for you ais523, flooding clocks have a similar problem with infinites, so its not super relevant if its TC or not 18:30:10 bad news for me though 18:32:24 -!- dyeplexer has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:34:48 The infinite is related to the fact that some of our creatures have two types, and we can have three of those arcbonded and kept barely alive by two different clocks that refill themselves, then reordering the arcbond triggers can cause them to die (123123 ->12131213) 18:37:59 -!- spruit11_ has quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.). 18:38:20 -!- spruit11 has joined. 18:40:21 -!- hanif has joined. 19:02:50 -!- hanif has quit (Quit: quit). 19:09:02 it might still matter if we replace arcbond with massacre girl, but she's very restrictive as we don't want to be able to set off a computation too easily. 19:12:11 it's still an interesting question in theory, although I'm a little relieved it doesn't have an urgent practical use 19:19:04 -!- craigo has joined. 19:21:37 -!- vyv has joined. 19:59:54 [[User:RocketRace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87355&oldid=82405 * RocketRace * (+87) portsy 20:00:33 that's a pretty generous definition of practical 20:25:18 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Heptor * New user account 20:29:17 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87356&oldid=87338 * Heptor * (+210) /* Introductions */ 20:33:17 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87357&oldid=87127 * FLeckami21 * (+260) adding Sokolang 20:40:48 -!- vyv has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!). 20:48:26 [[Matrixfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87358 * Heptor * (+1409) Matrixfuck is a brainfuck derivative with the memory being a 2d array. 20:50:17 [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87359&oldid=87358 * Heptor * (+104) /* Syntax */ 20:55:52 [[Sokolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87360&oldid=87335 * FLeckami21 * (+0) 21:08:14 -!- craigo has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:08:55 [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Heptor * uploaded "[[File:Matrixfuck Example.gif]]" 21:09:02 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:12:49 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:17:02 [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87362&oldid=87359 * Heptor * (+403) 21:17:57 [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87363&oldid=87362 * Heptor * (-156) 21:21:26 [[Matrixfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87364&oldid=87363 * Heptor * (+81) 21:23:05 [[Matrixfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87365&oldid=87364 * Heptor * (+33) /* Syntax */ 21:35:36 [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87366&oldid=87365 * Heptor * (+245) 21:48:01 [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87367&oldid=87366 * Heptor * (+433) 21:49:55 [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87368&oldid=87367 * Heptor * (+131) /* Implementation notes */ 21:51:53 [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87369&oldid=87368 * Heptor * (+36) /* Syntax */ 21:53:11 [[9f87m4atttaaaou;]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87370&oldid=87273 * TheJonyMyster * (-10) toggles implies on or off, can probably be cleaned up still though 21:54:05 [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87371&oldid=87369 * Heptor * (-31) /* Syntax */ 21:58:08 [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87372&oldid=87371 * Heptor * (+290) /* Syntax */ 21:58:55 [[Backrooms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87373&oldid=87343 * Salpynx * (+11) /* turing */ 'truth-machine' is what this program form is known as 21:59:38 [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87374&oldid=87372 * Heptor * (+17) /* Syntax */ 22:02:56 [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87375&oldid=87374 * Heptor * (+106) /* Implementation notes */ 22:03:20 [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87376&oldid=87375 * Heptor * (+0) /* Syntax */ 22:04:12 [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87377&oldid=87376 * Heptor * (-2) /* Syntax */ 22:04:28 [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87378&oldid=87377 * Heptor * (+8) /* Syntax */ 22:06:18 [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87379&oldid=87378 * Heptor * (+57) /* Syntax */ 22:06:55 [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87380&oldid=87379 * Heptor * (-57) /* Syntax */ 22:07:42 [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87381&oldid=87380 * Heptor * (+93) /* Notes */ 22:38:30 [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87382&oldid=87381 * Heptor * (+313) 22:40:08 -!- BusyBeaver42 has quit (Quit: Client closed). 22:43:00 someone's new online befunge interpreter https://tjol.eu/rfunge/ 22:43:16 written in rust, aims for 98 22:45:37 [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87383&oldid=87382 * Heptor * (-119) /* Implementation notes */ 22:51:32 [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87384&oldid=87383 * Heptor * (+56) /* Notes */ 23:07:00 [[User:DoggyDogWhirl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87385&oldid=87079 * DoggyDogWhirl * (+3130) Added TwoBrainsfuck 23:13:17 [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87386&oldid=87384 * Heptor * (+130) /* Notes */ 23:13:31 [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87387&oldid=87386 * Heptor * (-8) 23:32:36 -!- warlock has changed nick to identify. 23:33:06 -!- identify has changed nick to Guest5396. 23:33:12 -!- Guest5396 has changed nick to double. 23:33:29 -!- double has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:45:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit).