00:00:08 <b_jonas> oerjan: hmm
00:00:19 <oerjan> oh hi
00:01:15 <b_jonas> I wonder if this is related to opitmal sorting networks or optimal interactive sorting protocols that minimize the number of comparisons
00:01:50 <b_jonas> or that weird screws and nuts comparison problem
00:01:53 <oerjan> perhaps, although the difference is that the underlying tests here don't really come from a _total_ order
00:02:19 <oerjan> you still can structure them in a binary tree, though, which is why they must obey the OEIS function limit
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00:03:29 <oerjan> (the function can be described as: minimum sum of depths of leaves in a binary tree with a given number of leaves)
00:03:43 <b_jonas> ftr I don't need an optimal method; close to optimal for large numbers and optimal for small numbers is already fine for me
00:04:03 <oerjan> true, as i said i just got obsessed about the question
00:05:22 <oerjan> and also finding the optimal method might get hairy in more complicated cases: for 16 files i'm having to look at the corner case with _5_ files out of 16
00:05:54 <oerjan> which looks like it _might_ be done better than by bisection but i haven't wrapped it up
00:06:45 <b_jonas> and I logread this channel anyway
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00:07:28 <oerjan> a general principle seems to be that the problem gets harder when the number of possible pairs is close to a power of 2 (because that minimizes the slack you have in balancing)
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00:09:01 <b_jonas> if you care about the minimum that is, not eg. the average
00:09:32 <oerjan> i'm actually caring about the average over all possible pairs
00:10:09 <oerjan> which is OEIS(n)/n for a sufficiently balanced tree
00:10:23 <oerjan> er
00:10:35 <oerjan> that's when n is the number of possible pairs.
00:11:04 <oerjan> also for a _perfectly_ balanced tree that also forces the minimum
00:11:28 <oerjan> s/perfectly/sufficiently/
00:11:55 <oerjan> well that _is_ perfectly for that given number
00:12:39 <oerjan> because the only way to have that is for all the leaves to be at exactly 2 levels - otherwise you can improve by rearranging.
00:12:58 <oerjan> (well or 1 level for an exact power of 2)
00:16:52 <oerjan> anyway, i'm monologuing again (MWAHAHAHA)
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01:26:15 <Hooloovoo> j #dragonbox-pyra
01:26:29 <Hooloovoo> woops
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01:41:07 <zzo38> Which web browsers can you write dynamic extensions in C?
01:45:52 <sebbu> none anymore
01:46:26 <sebbu> they want to remove plugins, and remove even the feature of supporting plugins
01:47:38 <sebbu> whether it's activex, ppapi or npapi
01:48:14 <keegan> does the south korean banking system still run on activex or did they fix that finally
01:48:55 <sebbu> LiveConnect and XPConnect might still works
01:49:05 <zzo38> None of those are what I had meant anyways though; I mean extensions and not plugins of web pages
01:49:58 <keegan> well ppapi/npapi are sort of both
01:50:10 <sebbu> extension can only be in webextension nowadays
01:51:15 <zzo38> I think WebExtensions doesn't work well enough
01:51:47 <sebbu> i do too, they have LESS features than the previous solution
01:51:52 <sebbu> but we don't have anything else
01:52:39 <zzo38> I still use the old version of Firefox with XUL, since I dislike many of the features of the new one
01:53:14 <sebbu> then you can probably still use the old firefox extensions
01:53:18 <sebbu> and npapi
01:53:23 <zzo38> Although I have ideas how a better web browser should be written, one of the ideas is that extensions should be C
01:53:46 <sebbu> all plugins already are C
01:54:44 <zzo38> Also, HTTP, HTTPS, HTML, and many other things should also be implemented as extensions, although the "data" URI scheme will be a part of the core system
01:56:58 <sebbu> yeah, and we should restore support of ftp, ftps, sftp, gopher, gemini, ipfs, tor, etc... in browsers
01:57:07 <sebbu> alongside with rtf, sgml, tex, markdown and others
01:57:49 <sebbu> IDE (and toolchains) already have something similar with https://langserver.org/
01:58:47 <sebbu> it WAS made by microsoft, but it's still a very nice idea, completely separating the tool, from the language, from the compiler
01:59:31 <sebbu> most IDE and tools already supports it
02:00:45 <zzo38> Yes, FTP, Gopher, Gemini, IPFS, etc can also be implemented as extensions and should be included with the browser. (Implementing nearly all of the URI schemes (except data: and some uses of about:) in extensions makes it more uniform and allow better customization, and ensures that the extension interface works good enough)
02:01:53 <sebbu> <img> <audio> <video> <object> <embed> should also be related to extensions
02:01:58 <zzo38> Character encodings also might want implemented by extensions
02:02:13 <sebbu> and compressions
02:02:36 <sebbu> quoted-printable, gzip, zlib, brotli for example
02:02:37 <zzo38> Yes; if extension can implement any MIME types, then it can also be used to add picture formats, etc
02:03:03 <sebbu> then you must also make it not limited to browsers
02:03:09 <sebbu> but also mail clients and other things
02:03:23 <sebbu> you could support yEnc, opengpg, s/mime, etc...
02:04:20 <sebbu> have "windows" or "panels" that translate from one to the other, so that you could make a WYSIWYG editor with your software and a few extensions
02:05:02 <sebbu> starting with all markup languages, include markdown (several flavor), asciidoctor, yaml, etc...
02:05:42 <sebbu> make a syntaxic coloring format that works (abnf or peg) that could easily be added/extended, possibly with conversions to/from other formats
02:06:02 <zzo38> You might need different extension interfaces for some things, although writing a C code to interface between then would be possible too
02:06:11 <sebbu> supporting vcard/hcard and microformats properly in web pages
02:06:41 <sebbu> i mean, html5 already has a few more input, more calendar, birthdate, phone number, adresses, etc... should be standard
02:06:43 <sebbu> no need fo js
02:07:08 <sebbu> ideally it could even detect the main framework, and REPLACE using them with native support
02:08:03 <sebbu> adblocking would be an extension too, and wouldn't have all the restrictions current browsers give to extensions
02:09:30 <zzo38> Although many things I think deliberately should not be implemented, or be implemented differently; however, some things specified by W3C are not implemented well in current browsers but should be implemented.
02:09:51 <zzo38> You would have to remove half of the stuff, implement the other half of stuff differently, and then add some, I think
02:10:35 <sebbu> i think everything i said should be implemented, but i didn't say the how
02:10:51 <sebbu> some of the current implementation (and usage) are wrong
02:11:05 <sebbu> a different implementation might not matter if it's still as wrongly used as it is now
02:11:55 <sebbu> using js for everything is plainly wrong, and data inputting, masking and validation shouldn't even NEED js in an ideal world
02:12:18 <sebbu> and of course styles / graphic rendering shouldn't need js either
02:12:26 <sebbu> the site should work even if js is blocked
02:12:30 <zzo38> My idea does include that the core should include the model of HTTP requests/responses, but not the implementation, which is an extension. Some header names are "privileged" and cannot occur in protocols (they can be useful for user settings which rewrite requests/responses, as well as to identify permissions for some things)
02:13:27 <sebbu> yeah, you should write abnf or peg for everything
02:14:24 <zzo38> Cookies should not be needed for everything either; HTTP already has authentication. Also, SASL should be added; many protocols have SASL but HTTP(S) doesn't, I think?
02:14:31 <sebbu> you could even make every extension (and the core) testable independently
02:15:49 <zzo38> Yes, making them independent in that way can help many of thing too
02:17:35 <sebbu> SSL Client Certificate Authentication could also work
02:17:41 <sebbu> you don't need sasl
02:17:41 <zzo38> Even when JavaScripts are used in web pages (and also CSS), you might want to override things, either entire scripts or individual HTML object model properties (and also Date, which is core JavaScript, but I think that was a mistake). (For CSS, my idea is meta-CSS to allow this)
02:18:47 <sebbu> all programing language need to interact with date
02:18:56 <sebbu> having a date object isn't wrong
02:19:03 <sebbu> but not all of them have the same features :(
02:19:16 <sebbu> especially related to calendars and dates in the far past/future
02:19:36 <zzo38> I agree with that, but what I am objecting to is the ability to access the current date/time/timezone in core JavaScript, rather than it being a part of the document object model
02:19:38 <sebbu> even timezone support is often broken
02:20:19 <sebbu> javascript already has date, no ?
02:21:10 <zzo38> It does, which means that if you want to fake the date, it will have to be different than faking the DOM
02:21:26 <sebbu> why would i want to fake the date ?
02:21:35 <sebbu> it's as easy as modifying the os date in a vm
02:21:55 <sebbu> or preloading a dynamic library
02:22:12 <zzo38> You shouldn't have to do those things in order to change the behaviour of a specific web page
02:22:27 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87592&oldid=87581 * KakkoiiChris * (+0) /* 99 bottles of beer */ Fixed wrong line order
02:22:54 <sebbu> same if i want javascript to get the wrong url of the current page ?
02:22:55 <sebbu> :D
02:23:33 <sebbu> (i had that specific need before)
02:24:09 <zzo38> Yes, although Date is a ECMA function rather than a DOM function, which means that there is a implementation consideration when designing a web browser to support this.
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02:28:16 <zzo38> Another of my idea is adding a "feature" attribute, which can be used with <script>, <noscript>, and some others (including CSS), to discard that block if the requested features are enabled in the browser. This might greatly improve speed and memory usage in some cases, as well as allowing better user customization, and possibly other applications too.
02:29:31 <sebbu> yeah
02:30:05 <sebbu> i know relmeauth (the simplified version of indieauth) use the "rel" attribute for <link> or <a>
02:30:21 <sebbu> microformats / hcard uses the "class" attribute
02:31:21 <sebbu> it allows you great semantic specification / details, without needing to forget (x)html and requiring RDF
02:32:10 <sebbu> https://indieweb.org/RelMeAuth
02:32:27 <zzo38> I would want support for Gemini and Insecure-Gemini in curl too though, and in the web browser.
02:32:53 <sebbu> https://microformats.org/wiki/h-card
02:32:57 <sebbu> see thoses 2 links
02:33:10 <zzo38> I think RDF/XML is no good; RDF Turtle format is better
02:33:29 <sebbu> i'm still waiting on http/3 support in curl (the official binary packages, not just the sources)
02:33:58 <sebbu> for now, if you want http/3 support in curl, you must compile it yourself
02:34:24 <sebbu> all linux distributions, and windows, and msys2/cygwin, don't have http/3 support with their curl binary packages
02:34:51 <sebbu> i liked owl, but it was as verbose as rdf/xml
02:34:52 <sebbu> :D
02:36:03 <sebbu> RDF Turtle would work quite well with SPARQL
02:36:40 <sebbu> (and why RDF Turtle and not the more generic Notation3 ?)
02:43:45 <zzo38> I think RDF Turtle is suitable for many things, although I had in my own implementations, adding a few things, such as hexadecimal integer literals (they are converted to decimal when parsed), "deanonymizing operator", and "cons cell operator" (which allows the next cell of a list to be something other than a continuation of the same list)
02:45:12 <zzo38> The lack of \xhh escapes can also make some things longer than they should be, and lack of byte strings in general also can be problematic for some applications, although you can represent any byte sequence using hex strings anyways
02:47:16 <zzo38> The {} in Notation3 can be helpful for some things, although it is unclear how to represent such a thing in the resulting RDF graph
02:51:32 <sebbu> that's why i both love and hate CDATA in xml
02:52:24 <sebbu> love because it's an answer to embedding byte strings / binary data without reencoding, hate because it's so often badly implemented or not implemented at all (in xml library, tools, softwares, clients, editors, etc...)
02:55:50 <zzo38> I also think that Unicode is messy and that it won't work to use a single character encoding for all applications since different ones may need different character sets, which might work better for them. For some cases, Unicode helps, but other things TRON might be better, or ASCII, or other encodings, or not caring about the encoding at all might sometimes be better too
02:56:37 <sebbu> yeah, not caring about the encoding is sometimes what you want
02:56:48 <sebbu> but still without forcibly decoding it
02:57:06 <sebbu> i know C# Strings must have an encoding, while Byte can't
02:57:39 <sebbu> i usually use utf8 everywhere
02:58:56 <zzo38> I mostly use ASCII (which is a subset of UTF-8, so it is helpful), but sometimes others are helpful, such as PC character encoding, which is used in Free Hero Mesh as well as in ZXT metadata extensions
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03:02:12 <sebbu> no, ascii isn't a subset of utf8
03:02:15 <sebbu> us-ascii is
03:02:19 <sebbu> the 7bit encoding
03:02:39 <sebbu> ascii is a random generic name for any of the 20+ latin* encoding
03:02:59 <sebbu> windows-1252 is sometimes called ascii too
03:03:33 <sebbu> yeah, dos encoding is sometimes called ascii too
03:03:46 <sebbu> and the control characters are completely different than latin1
03:03:55 <zzo38> Also, I had a idea SQL+RDF as an alternative of SPARQL, which is a superset of RDF and also has the property that triples separated by dots is the same as NATURAL JOIN
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04:41:53 <esolangs> [[Cyclic tag system]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87593&oldid=67226 * Xylochoron * (+186) Added link to Turing machine to cyclic tag compiler
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05:50:08 <esolangs> [[User:TriMill]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87594&oldid=62836 * TriMill * (+388) engoodened userpage
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07:09:08 <b_jonas> "yeah, you should write abnf or peg for everything" => good luck with the ones for dates and the checksums eg. ISBN-10 checksum
07:10:57 <int-e> b_jonas: oh no, how big would a regular expression for that be...
07:12:20 <b_jonas> int-e: with dates, quite small, but there'll be hundreds of buggy versions out there on individual webpages, with different sets of people whose birthday is rejected as invalid
07:12:41 <int-e> (probably too big, given that the underlying DFA has about 140 states)
07:12:52 <int-e> I meant ISBN-10
07:13:43 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, but BNF doesn't blow that up, it just describes the states and state transitions once directly, unlike a regex
07:13:45 <int-e> dates are comparatively sane, even with leap years
07:14:21 <b_jonas> int-e: (complicated-regex|1712-02-30)
07:14:26 <b_jonas> very sane
07:15:26 <int-e> with BNF for ISBN-10 you're still looking at 1000s of rules, aren't you?
07:17:33 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, but in a neat 130*10 table I think
07:17:46 <b_jonas> it would fit on one screen 
07:17:55 <int-e> 13*11*10 or so.
07:18:23 <b_jonas> yeah, plus or minus some off-by-one in each factor
07:18:54 <int-e> ah, no, the hyphens need far fewer rules than the digits. 10*11*10 + 3*11 + O(1) ;-)
07:23:13 <b_jonas> int-e: well, that depends on whether you are one of those very strict people who insist that more than three hyphens or spaces in an ISBN is invalid :-)
07:28:11 <b_jonas> I might do that for trying to find anomalies in an off-line database, but not in an interactive webpage
07:28:42 <b_jonas> but note that some library catalogs only match the ISBN if you put the spaces in the correct positions, they don't just ignore the spaces
07:29:21 <b_jonas> so given the web dev industry, someone will try be that strict
07:32:17 <int-e> there's bound to be several dozen npm packages for handling isbns :P
07:33:58 <int-e> There's at least 2 haskell libraries on hackage that do ISBN validation, probably more.
07:34:16 <int-e> And no, I'm in no mind to check how strict they are.
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09:55:31 <esolangs> [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87595&oldid=86431 * Nakilon * (+1) /* Prime numbers generator */ -6 instructions
09:56:53 <nakilon> used the IDE to add annotations to the prime generator example and figure out that some of the code can be removed
10:42:39 <nakilon> didn't know about this http://shinh.skr.jp/elvm/8cc.js.html
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12:24:36 <esolangs> [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87596&oldid=87595 * Nakilon * (+59) /* Examples */ removed two examples, told to look for them in GitHub
12:53:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * Nakilon *  uploaded "[[File:Ide-empty.png]]"
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13:14:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * Nakilon *  uploaded "[[File:  2021-08-25  16.13.48.png]]"
13:15:32 <nakilon> oops, uploaded a file with non-ascii letters in name
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13:27:54 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * Nakilon *  uploaded "[[File:Ide-log-start.png]]"
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14:30:32 <esolangs> [[FFRISC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87601 * Oshaboy * (+622) Initial
14:30:52 <esolangs> [[FFRISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87602&oldid=87601 * Oshaboy * (+9) Formatting
14:31:22 <esolangs> [[User:Oshaboy]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87603&oldid=87561 * Oshaboy * (+43) Added FFRISC
14:47:34 <b_jonas> int-e: also the problem with ISBNs is that there have been books printed with ISBNs that have invalid checksums, or so en.Wikipedia claims, and it is ruled that those ISBNs stay valid
14:47:54 <b_jonas> it still make sense to give a warning if you try to search for an ISBN with invalid checksum, but not an error
15:28:10 <esolangs> [[RASEL]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87604&oldid=87596 * Nakilon * (+4049) about IDE
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15:46:49 <nakilon> how do I refer the wiki in my github README?
15:46:53 <nakilon> "Esolang Wiki"
15:46:55 <nakilon> ?
15:59:13 <b_jonas> nakilon: that, but mostly by specific URLs
16:05:06 <nakilon> ok
16:05:37 <nakilon> so I've documented the IDE in the wiki and deployed the gem version with it
16:05:44 <nakilon> seems to be working
16:06:17 <nakilon> oh wait, it doesn't
16:07:44 <Corbin> Pretty cool.
16:08:28 <Corbin> I like the pictures of the IDE in action.
16:27:07 <b_jonas> `? corbin
16:27:10 <HackEso> corbin? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
16:27:20 <b_jonas> as a regular, you'll soon need a wisdom under this name
16:53:19 <nakilon> ok made the workaround for ruby 2.3.8 against the 4 years old ruby core bug that does not happen until you install the gem
16:54:27 <nakilon> and fixed two things that changed between ruby 2.3 and 3.0 (two libraries are now have to be required or declared as dependencies explicitly)
16:54:57 <nakilon> so everything should work after: gem install rasel -v 1.1.2
16:55:54 <nakilon> `? defunge
16:55:56 <HackEso> defunge? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
16:55:59 <nakilon> `? befunge
16:56:00 <HackEso> In the Beginning was Befunge. And Befunge begot Fungot. And Fungot got Taneb. And Taneb tanebvented All the Things. Fnord.
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17:03:32 <nakilon> (I mean the bug was discovered and resolved 4 years ago, it's just ruby 2.3 that is old but I try to keep things this much compatible)
17:07:32 <nakilon> the IDE can be made as a separate tool; it just needs to call any fungeoid interpreter implementation that would emit the annotated log
17:08:28 <nakilon> and while it's made in the way that the server requires the RASEL library directly it can be changes to spawning a subprocess -- it would just need some more work around the errors handling and stuff
17:08:53 <nakilon> so it would allow any backend, not necessary ruby
17:09:14 <nakilon> *esolang backend
17:11:47 <nakilon> (you can see here the uncommitted version of caller code that I was making first, spawning the subprocess https://i.imgur.com/0gcMrPf.png but then I decided that why spawn if I can require the library directly)
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18:38:35 <esolangs> [[Trep]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87605 * TriMill * (+4361) Created page
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19:22:31 <Corbin> Is there a category for extra documentation or appendices? Stuff that would unduly clutter a language's main page, but should be included as supplementary material?
19:29:32 <esolangs> [[Esme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87606&oldid=80696 * Corbin * (-3) Move {{stub}} to top, remove deleted category, and add 2008 category.
19:33:52 <esolangs> [[FURscript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87607&oldid=11964 * Corbin * (-4) Add 2006 category, remove deleted category.
19:35:15 <esolangs> [[Snack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87608&oldid=71934 * Corbin * (-22) Remove deleted category.
19:36:35 <esolangs> [[Golunar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87609&oldid=79585 * Corbin * (-16) Change category from redlink "Usable for programming" to bluelink "Usable".
19:37:25 <esolangs> [[Boner++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87610&oldid=79854 * Corbin * (-16) Change category from redlink "Usable for programming" to bluelink "Usable".
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20:20:18 <nakilon> does it have to have a category?
20:27:41 <Corbin> I guess not.
20:47:55 <esolangs> [[Cammy/Bikeshed]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87611 * Corbin * (+4442) Start an appendix summarizing some research.
20:49:46 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87612&oldid=87435 * Corbin * (+62) /* Syntax */ Link to appendix with nomenclature.
21:12:55 <esolangs> [[User:TriMill]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87613&oldid=87594 * TriMill * (+103) Added contact information and most recent esolang
21:30:36 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87614&oldid=87612 * Corbin * (+1028) Include a section on paradigms; clean up external links, especially to WP.
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22:55:36 <esolangs> [[Minim]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87615&oldid=87592 * KakkoiiChris * (+381) /* Standard Library */ Added text functions
22:57:36 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87616&oldid=87615 * KakkoiiChris * (-54) /* System Functions */ Removed one layer of headers
23:06:24 <esolangs> [[Slam]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87617 * ArthroStar11 * (+4389) created page and provided link to my interpreter
23:07:41 <esolangs> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87618&oldid=87553 * ArthroStar11 * (+11) added my language "Slam"
23:08:17 <Corbin> Hm. There should be a page discussing https://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/paradigmsDIAGRAMeng101.pdf, even if the taxonomy's not implemented.
23:08:32 <Corbin> And also a page discussing http://tunes.org/~iepos/joy.html since it's cited so much.
23:12:18 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87619&oldid=87616 * KakkoiiChris * (+170) /* Statements */ Added the flush statements
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23:20:21 <esolangs> [[User:ArthroStar11]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87620&oldid=87554 * ArthroStar11 * (+500) 
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23:38:01 <oerjan> Corbin: the Shameful category is an inside joke, it was used but noncreated on purpose
23:38:46 <oerjan> basically, it's for languages that don't deserve to be found in categories
23:38:48 <esolangs> [[Esme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87621&oldid=87606 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) Categorize
23:40:02 <esolangs> [[Category:Usable]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87622&oldid=84875 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) U
23:40:03 <oerjan> or don't deserve to be known
23:42:52 <esolangs> [[Minim]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87623&oldid=87619 * KakkoiiChris * (+0) Moved Design Patterns section below System Functions section
23:44:59 <oerjan> <Corbin> And also a page discussing http://tunes.org/~iepos/joy.html since it's cited so much. <-- ooh is this something you added in the year i was gone