00:06:22 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88084&oldid=88083 * Corbin * (+355) /* Functors */ Remove formerly-primitive functors and explain how to define custom functors.
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02:17:01 <zzo38> What I can think of for when you want to insert one item in a proper sorted position in a double linked list can be: you can start on one end, or you can start on both ends, or you can start on the middle.
02:18:50 <zzo38> Is there a better way?
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02:47:32 <fizzie> Sometimes people do that thing where they keep a pointer to the single most recently added (or used) node, so that when they need to find an item (or a place) in the list, they can pick as start points either one of the ends or that most recently added item, depending on which is "closest" (assuming that can be measured). The thinking is, often things that get added close to each other are
02:49:54 <zzo38> OK, that make sense
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03:12:26 <shachaf> By the way, what do you do about the fact that "naively" inserting into a B-tree in sorted order produces a maximal-space (every node half-full) tree?
03:12:51 <shachaf> I've seen people address it with a special case behavior for inserting at the very last element of the tree.
03:13:26 <shachaf> But I'd like something more general that can also address inserting in reversed order, and probably fancier patterns.
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03:32:39 <zzo38> The latest issue of 2600 mentions post-quantum cryptography, and they mention ambiguous keys. It says: "Block cipher systems which have ambiguous keys generally have the property that the key size is larger than the block size."
03:33:37 <zzo38> Well, I think, if you use a hash function in CFB, OFB, or CTR mode, then the key can be as longer as you want to be, or maybe even combining these modes
03:35:48 <zzo38> They also mention putting random data in a part of the block before encryption. I also had a similar idea but my idea was to use irregular and misaligned random padding, including codes (part of the text before being encrypted) to detect this.
03:40:28 <zzo38> Depending on what requirements, there are other possibilities such as to somehow shuffle the message before encrypting it (but after applying the random padding and codes), in a way which can be reversed
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04:38:09 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88085&oldid=87637 * Pipythonmc * (+43) /* Self-interpreters */ Fix dead link (changed to wayback machine snapshot)
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05:16:22 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88086&oldid=88085 * Pipythonmc * (+42) /* External resources */ Fix broken link (change to wayback archived page)
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09:18:00 <b_jonas> oh great, they're back under a slightly different name
09:18:19 <b_jonas> the date md5 checksum guy that is
09:20:29 <int-e> md5 checksum... oh the programming puzzle stuff
09:33:49 <b_jonas> int-e: yes. the spec as quoted doesn't explicitly state md5, but it gives a full checksum and there's a matching solution if you use md5 so I assume they just left out that part
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09:36:22 <b_jonas> I have a weird idea. you know these modern language models that the AI research folks are experimenting with, like GPT-2 or the ones that generate faces or dog pictures? you could use those to make the modern equivalent of a Chef/Piet style language. take a model and make sure it can be decoded then encoded losslessly by throwing in an arithmetic coder if necessary, write your program in a golfing
09:36:28 <b_jonas> language and *decode* it with the model to get your actual source code, bang you have an esolang that represents programs as English text or machine-generated dog pictures.
09:37:37 <b_jonas> for #esolangs purposes, we probably have to use one of fungоt's (or words's) models, since they've been stable for years and widely used so can be considered canonical. then we'd get a programming language where the source code looks like a European parliament speech or an IRC conversation about Scheme
09:38:52 <int-e> b_jonas: eh I'm just glad they (apparently) decided that #esolangs isn't for them
09:40:37 <b_jonas> int-e: possible, but I wouldn't be so hasty in that conclusion. they may just have learned not to ask the same question on many channels at the same time, so that they can continue saying the "my solution in <other language> is" thing with higher probability
09:40:54 <int-e> the language model thing... feels squishy (eww).
09:41:23 <int-e> true, social engineering is hard
09:42:18 <b_jonas> if you don't want anything modern, I could use my old steganography thing https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=877696 , to have an esolang where your source code can look like your favourite text, and only the whitespace in the source code matters for the actual program meaning
09:45:41 <int-e> oh another thought... aren't you just reinventing copilot ;-)
09:45:57 <b_jonas> you could even train a model on corporate style Java programs, or programs on github, or code on StackOverflow, and use that model to make a language whose source code looks like Java. of course there are easier and more practical ways to make a language that looks like Java.
09:46:51 <int-e> My issue is, I prefer things to have a clear specification. Putting a NN in the pipeline utterly destroys that property.
09:47:53 <b_jonas> int-e: it doesn't need to be a NN. fungot's models don't use an NN.
09:47:53 <fungot> b_jonas: ( just as the important thing here is that i'm trying to
09:48:10 <int-e> It's bad enough that "real" programming language specifications are ludicrously big.
09:48:34 <b_jonas> int-e: but in that case, I point again to https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=877696 , which does have a simple specification, though it's not quite obvious what it is because I deliberately wrote the interpreter is an obfuscated style
09:48:55 <fizzie> fungot: Wait a sec, what exactly are you trying to use a neural net for?
09:48:56 <fungot> fizzie: some find them interesting and educational, and i've clearly gone loopy.
09:49:10 <fizzie> I can't argue with that.
09:49:14 <b_jonas> (also it's inefficient for long source code)
09:49:28 <int-e> (Actually, I have C and C++ in mind in particular... Java too... ECMAscript is noticably shorter but growing. How are the newcomers like Rust doing on that front?)
09:49:47 <b_jonas> int-e: Rust is no exception, it's growing too
09:50:35 <int-e> that was an excellent reply, fungot
09:50:36 <fungot> int-e: yet k is called with any argument, which is an sxml-based thumbnail gallery script that does that
09:50:37 <b_jonas> technically there's also my own model that makes fake (and sometimes accidentally real) town names in Hungary, but I can't really use that because I wrote it for work
09:51:14 <fizzie> https://golang.org/ref/spec is pretty reasonable lengthwise, I've always thought.
09:51:25 <int-e> wtf is sxml *googles* oh must be from the scheme channel?
09:53:15 <int-e> (I've certainly seen SXML before, it just never seemed relevant.)
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10:59:25 <wib_jonas> what I said is actually a straightforward application of Shannon's theorem, which tells us that if you want to encode codegolf problems to food recipes, you don't need to have DMM's double domain specific insights on how the concepts of programming map to the concept of cooking (eg. variables to mixing bowls), you can get the same asymptotic
10:59:25 <wib_jonas> density if you make an encoder from codegolf problems to coinflip sequences, and separately make a decoder from coinflip sequences to food recipes
11:00:02 <wib_jonas> that doesn't count as modern as esolangs go (though may count as modern as mathematics goes)
11:07:01 <wib_jonas> by the way, as for modern mathematics, have you noticed how on the list of Hilbert's problems from 1900, there's the one about diophantic equations which asks about computability, even though computability or algorithms weren't defined until Church–Turing invented them in 1930–1936?
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11:08:31 <riv> that's interesting
11:08:58 <riv> of course the notion of a method to solve things that didn't require extra insights would have been known
11:12:04 <wib_jonas> that kind of thing is hardly unique of course, Gauss–Bolyai–Lobačevskij in the 1830s tried to figure out if Euclid's parallel postulate is independent from the rest of the axioms in the plane, and Beltrami–Klein proved that it is independent around 1860, but people didn't actually know how to work with mathematical proofs from a precise
11:12:04 <wib_jonas> axiom system until Frege figured it out around 1980;
11:12:14 <wib_jonas> not to mention all the things that eventually Taneb invented
11:12:21 <HackEso> tanebventions/math? ¯\(°_o)/¯
11:12:26 <HackEso> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the hug, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
11:12:37 <HackEso> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, linear logic, the reals, Lambek's lemma, Curry's paradox, Stone spaces, algebraic geometry, locales, and histograms.
11:14:33 <wib_jonas> mathematicians tried to use real numbers even before Taneb invented them
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12:05:28 <nakilon> 02:14:37 <HackEso> olist//#!/bin/bash \ set -e; n=$*; [[ $n = +([0-9]) ]]
12:05:53 <nakilon> this is exactly why I did [wiki ...] and not [[...]]
12:07:20 <nakilon> 00:34:13 <velik> The requested page title contains invalid characters: "[".
12:12:02 <int-e> Evil, GG, evil. How am I supposed to focus on that statue's face...
12:15:20 <nakilon> I'm imagining the website for RASEL golf and kind of solved most of the security but
12:17:04 <nakilon> I don't understand how to prevent that hacker hacks into my webserver and can now send his own solutions to the interpreter server pretending he's another user
12:18:29 <nakilon> 2FA via IRC bot would be too tedious for user experience
12:19:08 <wib_jonas> does that bot just react to [[double brackets]] ?
12:19:09 <nakilon> and delayed, since velik isn't "listening" to requests anyway
12:19:10 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Patternfuck
12:19:18 <wib_jonas> yes it does. that's probably not a very good idea.
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12:19:30 <wib_jonas> how about [[double opening] bracket with] separate single closing?
12:19:45 <nakilon> then another guy said the same so I made it finally
12:20:32 <nakilon> idk how to search in channel logs but it must be somewhere in the first day when the [wiki ...] was implemented
12:20:59 <fizzie> I just said [[Brainfuck]] is how we usually denote wiki links.
12:21:00 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck
12:21:10 <int-e> it's kind of lucky that [[...]] and [...] do the same thing in Brainfuck so the former doesn't usually come up in that context.
12:21:10 <fizzie> And then someone else did re-suggest it later on.
12:21:41 <fizzie> I think I was imagining it to work with [[Foo]] only for exact title matches though, and be silent when not.
12:21:42 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Foo
12:21:56 <fizzie> If you want to implement it that way, be my guest. :) And then [wiki ...] can be a general search.
12:22:28 <fizzie> Of course we _would_ have a page titled "Foo".
12:23:38 <wib_jonas> nakilon: I said that even the bot reacting to [wiki: inside the line is a bad idea], and I suggest that the bot should only react if there's an invocation sequence right at the *start* of the message
12:23:59 <fizzie> The two ends of the spectrum, I guess.
12:24:11 <wib_jonas> nakilon: this lets us avoid botloops by bots putting something at the start of the line, like a space or a control-O or whatever that was, so that it doesn't match any bot invocation sequence
12:24:38 <wib_jonas> and yes, fungоt goes against this rule, and it gets a pass, life isn't fair
12:25:14 <nakilon> this particular reply replies only with URLs so it's harder to make a bot loop unless you put fungot in it and teach fungot to do [[]]
12:25:14 <fungot> nakilon: i was busy dying with a fever! :)
12:25:44 <nakilon> woah, broke the empty query somehow
12:25:57 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/1CP%3D1ICL
12:27:18 <int-e> Oh I see, it's because that article actually contains the letter ꙮ.
12:27:26 <fizzie> Heh, Chrome's find-on-page search highlights both ꙮ and ꙩ when I search for ꙮ.
12:27:47 <HackEso> [U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O] [U+A669 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER MONOCULAR O]
12:28:11 <wib_jonas> nakilon: yes, it's not easy to get a botloop with just the bots we have now, but surely you've seen those very annoying title-printer bots that try to retrieve any http url they see even in the middle of the line, and can imagine how that together with your bot can cause a loop
12:28:29 <int-e> right, if you squint, closing 6 of your 7 eyes
12:29:07 <wib_jonas> and yes, I know that some of the wikimedia channels have a bot that reacts to [[double square brackets]] and outputs a URL to the article, and those are a bad idea too
12:29:08 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Roco
12:30:01 <wib_jonas> I have no problem with a command to search on the wiki, but use an invocation prefix for that
12:30:13 <wib_jonas> similarly we have a command to retrieve a URL and get its title but it uses a prefix
12:30:22 <wib_jonas> perlbot get https://esolangs.org/wiki/Roco
12:30:25 <perlbot> wib_jonas: Roco - Esolang : RocoFrom EsolangJump to navigation Jump to searchRoco is programming language using a form of coroutines, designed by Lode Vandevenne in 2007. The coroutines are very basic, they have no input or output parameters, and their instruction pointer is never copied or reset. If a coroutine doesn't call ("ca" or "ac") or yield ("yi") an... [Output truncated. http://perl.bot/p/aujzqv ]
12:30:27 <nakilon> but there is already a search via \wiki
12:30:49 <nakilon> then I'll leave the search only for \wiki
12:30:51 <int-e> Pfft, no pandemonium? I'm disappointed.
12:30:57 <nakilon> and that would do exact match
12:31:28 <int-e> arguably the semantics of those two are the wrong way around
12:31:40 <int-e> \wiki is a deliberate command so it can search wide
12:31:58 <int-e> [[...]] is a casual quote so it should search narrowly
12:32:03 <velik> Roco is programming language using a form of coroutines, designed by Lode Vandevenne in 2007. The coroutines are very basic, they have no input or output parameters, and their instruction pointer is never copied or reset. If a coroutine doesn't call ("ca" or "ac") or yield ("yi") another coroutine, it simply loops forever: if the instruction pointer reaches the end of a coroutine, it goes back to its beginning an... https://esolangs.org/wiki/Roco
12:32:24 <nakilon> lol perlbot's "jump to navigation"
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12:37:02 <int-e> Oh, a busy beaver game... https://www.gog.com/game/timberborn (scnr).
12:42:49 <nakilon> looks like Towns but with water physics
12:46:14 <wib_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck/w/index.php%3Ftitle%3DTalk:Brainfuck/index.php what the heck
12:46:35 <wib_jonas> "a language invented in a newly-awaken stupor" ok fair
12:50:09 <int-e> nakilon: yeah it looks like an ordinary game... I'm not buying it. Just couldn't resist the BB connection.
13:04:48 <wib_jonas> fact macro wikisearch is {eval ($r,)=split" ",{quote d {get {eval use URI;use URI::QueryParam;$o=URI->new("https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=1"); $o->query_param("search",{arg d});"$o"} //*[@class='mw-search-exists'or@class='mw-search-result-heading' ]//a/@href}};$r=~m(^/)?"https://esolangs.org$r":"null:"}
13:05:10 <velik> The goal: given a program length, find the brainfuck program of that length that calls the . command the greatest (finite) number of times. https://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_busy_beaver
13:05:14 <perlbot> wib_jonas: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [who's jeremy]
13:05:20 <wib_jonas> perlbot fact macro wikisearch is {eval ($r,)=split" ",{quote d {get {eval use URI;use URI::QueryParam;$o=URI->new("https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=1"); $o->query_param("search",{arg d});"$o"} //*[@class='mw-search-exists'or@class='mw-search-result-heading' ]//a/@href}};$r=~m(^/)?"https://esolangs.org$r":"null:"}
13:05:20 <perlbot> wib_jonas: Stored wikisearch is {eval ($r,)=split" ",{quote d {get {eval use URI;use URI::QueryParam;$o=URI->new("https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=1"); $o->query_param("search",{arg d});"$o"} //*[@class='mw-search-exists'or@class='mw-search-result-heading' ]//a/@href}};$r=~m(^/)?"https://esolangs.org$r":"null:"}
13:05:27 <perlbot> wib_jonas: https://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_busy_beaver
13:06:08 <wib_jonas> programmable bots can do everything custom bots can, it's just much harder to implement the commands
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13:08:35 <nakilon> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/sep/16/home-computing-pioneer-sir-clive-sinclair-dies-aged-81
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13:10:24 <nakilon> can you add a not yet installed third-party library to perlbot with those commands?
13:10:36 <nakilon> since velik uses gem Infoboxer
13:11:10 <wib_jonas> nakilon: you could if it's written in perl so you can run it in the eval sandbox
13:12:45 <wib_jonas> perlbot eval system(q[ruby -e'14.times{|k|p k}']) # doesn't even really need to be written in perl, you just need a suitable perl wrapper
13:14:19 <wib_jonas> ah, probably there's no ruby installed
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13:15:21 <wib_jonas> eval system(q[awk 'BEGIN{for(k=0;k<14;k++){printf("%s ",k)}}'])||""
13:15:29 <wib_jonas> perlbot eval system(q[awk 'BEGIN{for(k=0;k<14;k++){printf("%s ",k)}}'])||""
13:15:31 <perlbot> wib_jonas: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
13:15:45 <wib_jonas> can be written in awk or anything you can run in its sandbox
13:16:27 <nakilon> the whole library or at least a relevant piece of it would take day(s) to extract and a hundred of messages to eval
13:17:04 <nakilon> hundred even in case you've already golfed it all
13:17:21 <wib_jonas> nakilon: no, you don't have to send it through IRC
13:17:40 <wib_jonas> nakilon: you can download it from an external url, sort of like when we download things to hackeso, though the syntax for this is not obvious at all
13:17:49 <wib_jonas> or you can upload it through perlbot's web interface
13:18:36 <nakilon> so it's just more complicated way of building
13:27:37 <wib_jonas> or you could try to ask simcop to help, just like you can ask fizzie to install stuff to HackEso since that's sometimes easier than installing inside the sandbox, especially if there's a package in the debian version that HackEso's sandbox uses
13:33:25 <fizzie> Oh, I should probably upgrade that from buster to bullseye at some point.
13:35:56 <wib_jonas> sure, and I should upgrade my home computer. it will happen within months.
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14:27:30 <nakilon> I would upgrade Windows only for WSL if I was coding on it
14:29:16 <nakilon> and I'll probably update macOS when this macbook explode sinceit's already getting spherical
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14:32:45 <wib_jonas> nakilon: spherical as in https://xkcd.com/1422/
14:35:10 <fizzie> The test phone on my desk at the office (that had spent the last 1+ years waiting on the "allow debugging from this host?" prompt) had gone slightly spherical by the time I got back.
14:35:36 <nakilon> my macbook appeared to be from 2017 when there were some bad batteries and there is an apple program of replacement for free
14:35:51 <nakilon> but for some reason my serial number says that my macbook isn't affected
14:36:21 <fizzie> My PPC iBook had its battery recalled and replaced. Chemistry seems to be hard.
14:36:38 <nakilon> so I have to spent time to figure it out with local apple centers and if they say that unfortunately it's not free I need to pay for it and I don't have money right now so it's like a ticking bomb lol
14:38:53 <wib_jonas> fizzie: nah, all the products that they make in east Asia are like that, hard to make, it's just that a few things like battery, mains power contact safety, things that can theoretically strangle a baby, are considered important enough that the product gets recalled when they mess it up.
14:40:21 <Corbin> All products are like that, period. Modern batteries are extremely intricate inside and it's easy for the chemical reaction to interact badly with the battery housing's geometry.
14:40:23 <wib_jonas> it used to be christmas lights that shock you, but that went out of fashion since we have leds and solid state power supplies, so now it's just mains power extension cord and sockets where either the grounding is broken or the live wire can get touched
14:40:45 <wib_jonas> that's in Europe I mean; in US it's the default that mains power connectors make the live wire easy to touch
14:41:10 <Corbin> Look at tetraethyl lead (TEL) for a fun example. Blaming just one jurisdiction for shoddy products both ignores their lax trading partners and stokes us-vs-them rhetoric.
14:41:54 <fizzie> I've also got one of those portable battery packs, and for the life of me I can't remember if it was *designed* to be slightly thicker from the middle, or if it's doing the battery thing. Because it's really not very pronounced, so it could be it was never entirely flat.
14:42:51 <fizzie> It'd be easier if one of the seams would split, since that sounds unlikely to be by design.
14:46:00 <wib_jonas> I think I also mentioned that when you board a plane, besides the instructions about your seat belt and the emergency exit, they now tell you not to charge your batteries during takeoff and to call the crew immediately if your batteries are on fire, instead of the older warnings that you should turn off your electronic devices during takeoff and
14:46:01 <wib_jonas> landing, and before that, that all of the airplane is non-smoking.
14:47:15 <nakilon> maybe I had to buy mac mini
14:47:26 <nakilon> but would also need the keyboard and trackpad
14:47:46 <nakilon> and I don't want to bother with replacing those little batteries
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15:08:13 <perlbot> simcop2387: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [jql] [joel] [fail] [japh] [java] [.il] [.jm] [.jo] [.jp] [js]
15:10:11 <simcop2387> nakilon: https://github.com/perlbot/perlbot-jail make a pr for this and it'll get put into the sandbox for playing
15:14:42 <wib_jonas> simcop: it's all hypothetical of course, because nakilon already has a bot running, so it's easier for them to add a command to that bot than to try to figure out how perlbot works
15:15:55 <simcop2387> of course, just wanted to point out how the sandbox works to add data or small libraries
15:20:45 <wib_jonas> sure. and nakilon did ask after all.
15:21:25 <wib_jonas> this is one of the commands that we can't currently implement in HackEso, because there's no hole on the sandbox that lets us send queries to the wiki website
15:21:38 <wib_jonas> (nor a local wiki dump or anything like that)
15:22:11 <wib_jonas> not that it would be needed for HackEso
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20:33:37 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88087&oldid=88086 * Oerjan * (-35) Use template (and fix error)
20:39:36 <oerjan> `addquote <fizzie> fungot: Wait a sec, what exactly are you trying to use a neural net for? <fungot> fizzie: some find them interesting and educational, and i've clearly gone loopy. <fizzie> I can't argue with that.
20:39:37 <fungot> oerjan: it doesn't? it used to do boldface text with write(*,*) ' fnord _ ' bummer)
20:39:39 <HackEso> 1335) <fizzie> fungot: Wait a sec, what exactly are you trying to use a neural net for? <fungot> fizzie: some find them interesting and educational, and i've clearly gone loopy. <fizzie> I can't argue with that.
21:02:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Arnyx * New user account
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