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00:35:34 <fizzie> Re the monitor enumeration thing, I think the problem is, GTK (well, GDK) prefers not to renumber a monitor that's not "changing". So if I have monitors 0=A 1=B matching the X physical screen numbering, unplug A to leave 0=B, and then re-plug A again, what I get from GDK is 0=B 1=A (so that B gets to keep the number), but what XMonad `rescreen` sees is the original "natural" 0=A 1=B due to just
00:35:36 <fizzie> re-fetching the Xinerama info.
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02:27:59 <oerjan> `addquote <wib_jonas> of course there's the original problem of why the salesman isn't allowed to visit the same town twice, I presume that's because after he tries to sell his stuff people there hate him so much that it would be dangerous for him to return
02:28:05 <HackEso> 1336) <wib_jonas> of course there's the original problem of why the salesman isn't allowed to visit the same town twice, I presume that's because after he tries to sell his stuff people there hate him so much that it would be dangerous for him to return
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02:29:55 <esolangs> [[Talk:BytePusher]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88580&oldid=60091 * Iamn00b * (+392) 
02:30:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:BytePusher]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88581&oldid=88580 * Iamn00b * (+11) /* Difficulty accessing resources in external websites */
02:31:53 <zzo38> Internet MIME types can have + to indicate the format of the data, e.g. JSON or ZIP. Is there a code to specify that the format is plain text (even if the type isn't plain text)?
02:38:34 <esolangs> [[Spellcaster]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88582&oldid=88352 * Maikeru51 * (+1231) Pretty Much Changed Everything.
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02:59:20 <zzo38> Perhaps the MIME type system is not quite good enough. To properly specify a file format might need the (format,type,usage) triple, with the possibility of specifying more than one of each, either chaining or independent, and with separate parameters for each. However, that seems too complicated.
03:02:26 <zzo38> (Actually, even if such a format is used, separating them into a triple like this perhaps doesn't work.)
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06:48:38 <esolangs> [[Talk:Befunk]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88583&oldid=88568 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+346) Colored one of the questions gray
06:50:45 <oerjan> My brainfuck self-interpreter (modified from dbfi) is now working!
06:52:21 <oerjan> i mailed it to Clive Gifford (the eigenratio guy), i'll probably put it on the wiki later
06:54:02 <oerjan> (it is designed to be the first(?) bf self-interpreter with a proper eigenratio)
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06:55:15 <oerjan> (i feel like letting him see it first)
06:55:54 <oerjan> hm come to think of it, i haven't tested it recursively yet
06:56:03 <oerjan> let's see if TIO handles that >:)
06:56:42 <b_jonas> oerjan: what kind of eigenratio? tape use, or speed?
06:57:24 <oerjan> speed
06:57:52 <oerjan> tape use should be linear as i have no internal padding in the simulated tape
06:58:06 <oerjan> (so i guess that ratio is 1)
06:58:43 <oerjan> well technically it's number of instructions run
06:59:03 <oerjan> lest we introduce real world resource limits into it
06:59:34 <oerjan> it uses the technique of implementing >< by shifting the program code on the tape
07:00:01 <oerjan> also it managed to run itself recursively on the program ,[.,]!a just fine
07:00:14 <oerjan> let me add another iteration >:)
07:01:53 <oerjan> ok now it is taking its sweet time
07:02:23 <oerjan> went from 0.3 s to probably timing out on TIO
07:02:38 <oerjan> (60 s limit)
07:04:00 <oerjan> let me remove an iteration and do something like ^rev
07:04:03 <oerjan> ^rev test
07:04:03 <fungot> tset
07:05:37 <oerjan> that took 0.897 s
07:06:05 <oerjan> mind you, i expect the eigenratio to be in the hundreds at least
07:09:40 <oerjan> hm with no recursion is still 0.456 s for ^rev test, i guess TIO startup dominates
07:11:44 <b_jonas> ok, so it's recursion efficient in both tape use and instruction count
07:12:14 <b_jonas> do you get a good eigenratio by recognizing itself and interpreting itself quickly?
07:12:26 <b_jonas> or like recognizing main loops of itself quickly
07:12:55 <oerjan> i don't expect a _good_ eigenratio
07:13:04 <b_jonas> huh
07:13:12 <b_jonas> then what do you expect?
07:13:21 <b_jonas> or why did you bring up an eigenratio?
07:13:30 <b_jonas> s/an ei/the ei/
07:14:12 <oerjan> because most brainfuck self-interpreters don't have any at all, their speed grows as exp(O(n^2)) instead of the needed exp(O(n))
07:14:23 <oerjan> when you stack n of them
07:14:56 <b_jonas> hmm
07:15:28 <oerjan> it's an inevitable effect of putting the program and tape separately and having search through the tape as it gets larger - every simulated instruction
07:16:04 <oerjan> s/speed/running time/
07:16:54 <b_jonas> or at least every few simulated instructions, I assume you could optimize some sequences like multiple pluses even in an interpreter, just to get constant factor practical optimizations
07:17:58 <b_jonas> but if you're specifically going just to have an eigenratio, which is like an asymptotic thing, then you could also copy the program between each two simulated tape cells
07:18:22 <b_jonas> because your program size is constant
07:18:40 <oerjan> huh
07:19:17 <oerjan> i move it instead, but maybe copying will work better
07:19:23 <oerjan> theoretically
07:20:09 <oerjan> then you would only need to do it when you extend the tape
07:20:42 <oerjan> and have cheaper movement otherwise
07:21:03 <b_jonas> it might not really help
07:22:19 <oerjan> i actually think it would. [[>]>] to move is a lot cheaper than shifting the entire program
07:22:56 <b_jonas> and you could optimize specifically for that sequence of instructions I guess
07:23:15 <oerjan> i don't think _that_ matters much.
07:23:21 <oerjan> then again, maybe.
07:23:29 <b_jonas> ok, then maybe at least optimize [>]
07:25:58 <oerjan> that's the kind of thing Clive tried to do but it doesn't help with the eigenratio unless the optimization lifts to the next layer
07:28:23 <oerjan> when putting the program code between the cells, a large part of the cost comes from the interpreter's size
07:29:16 <oerjan> oh well, this is for future improvement anyway. my interpreter has another design criterion that acts against such things:
07:29:52 <oerjan> it's supposed to be simple and predictable enough that the matrix for the eigenratio can be calculated explicitly
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07:35:00 <b_jonas> true
07:40:36 <oerjan> ok stripping comments didn't seem to help with it timing out
07:40:47 <oerjan> anyway, later
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11:16:35 <esolangs> [[Digital Miracle]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88584&oldid=88578 * Hakerh400 * (+75) 
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11:25:48 <int-e> @bot
11:25:49 <lambdabot> :)
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12:10:52 <esolangs> [[Seltzer]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88585&oldid=88572 * InfiniteDonuts * (-7) Rename language
12:19:44 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * TheProfessor *  New user account
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13:43:07 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88586&oldid=88566 * InfiniteDonuts * (+291) brainflop hello world
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14:05:06 <esolangs> [[Senpai]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88587&oldid=88557 * 4gboframram * (+46) /* Stack Operations */
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14:55:52 <esolangs> [[BracketsLang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88588&oldid=88243 * PoetLuchnik * (+393) add C-like description
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15:51:43 <esolangs> [[Headass]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88589&oldid=88571 * TheJonyMyster * (+34) documented last update of interpreter for golf reasons haha
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16:46:37 <esolangs> [[Weirdlang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88590&oldid=75149 * PixelatedStarfish * (-192) 
16:52:50 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88591&oldid=88541 * PixelatedStarfish * (+28) /* Unimplemented Languages */
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16:54:43 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88592&oldid=88591 * PixelatedStarfish * (+85) /* In Chronological Order */
16:55:38 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88593&oldid=88592 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Unimplemented Languages */
16:55:56 <esolangs> [[Pip]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88594&oldid=79714 * Dlosc * (+79) Updated links, went into more detail on inspirations, added tags
16:57:05 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88595&oldid=88593 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* Implemented Languages */
16:58:10 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88596&oldid=88595 * PixelatedStarfish * (+36) /* In Chronological Order */
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17:38:21 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88597&oldid=88561 * PixelatedStarfish * (+841) 
17:38:38 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88598&oldid=88597 * PixelatedStarfish * (+13) /* Program Examples */
17:39:36 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88599&oldid=88598 * PixelatedStarfish * (+10) /* Program Examples */
17:40:09 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88600&oldid=88599 * PixelatedStarfish * (+15) /* Program Examples */
17:40:47 <esolangs> [[Pip]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88601&oldid=88594 * Dlosc * (+32) Updated Elo rank
17:41:46 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88602&oldid=88600 * PixelatedStarfish * (+34) /* Hello World */
17:56:44 <esolangs> [[BracketsLang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88603&oldid=88588 * PoetLuchnik * (-2) "like" to "as"
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19:34:53 <fizzie> /usr/include/c++/10/cstdlib:75:15: fatal error: stdlib.h: No such file or directory
19:34:57 <fizzie> That's probably not a good sign.
19:40:42 <b_jonas> oops
19:41:39 <fizzie> It's from compile_commands.json generated by this third-party script that tries to extract build actions from a Bazel build for, well, for things that need a compile_commands.json, like clangd.
19:41:50 <fizzie> Not sure how it manages to do that with just adding extra include directories though.
19:43:23 <fizzie> It probably has something to do with the way <cstdlib> uses #include_next <stdlib.h> rather than #include <stdlib.h>.
19:43:43 <fizzie> That combined with some weirdness with the include path order. But it builds fine when Bazel's doing it.
19:49:46 <fizzie> Yeah, it seems to be from the `-isystem external/system/include` flag that gets added. I'm doing a sort of a nonstandard hack to make Bazel build using the system's headers, because I couldn't just be bothered to define all from-sources dependencies for GTK and everything it needs.
19:53:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: what compiler is it in first place?
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19:57:28 <fizzie> GCC. Well, or Clang for the clangd use. But those two behave the same as far as this goes. (I did have to make the script drop a `-fno-canonical-system-headers` flag that clang doesn't understand from the list though.)
19:57:41 <fizzie> In retrospect, I should've just built this with CMake like a normal person.
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20:57:14 <esolangs> [[Senpai]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88604&oldid=88587 * 4gboframram * (+45) /* External Resources */
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21:24:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * SashaCat *  New user account
21:29:06 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88605&oldid=88555 * SashaCat * (+192) added my intro
21:37:59 <esolangs> [[User:SashaCat]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88606 * SashaCat * (+152) Created page with "My biggest achievement is honestly making [https://git.tilde.town/sortai/LISP_in_templates this] pretty small and not very usable LISP in c++ templates."
21:43:24 <b_jonas> it seems there are now 9 quotes of me and 2 more quotes mentioning me in /hackenv/quotes . but I think you put shameful quotes there, not only funny ones, so I'm not sure if I should be proud of that.
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22:21:40 <shachaf> `smlist 530
22:21:41 <HackEso> smlist 530: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
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23:41:25 <asteriska> been looking at hanoi love recently. bound to web-based tech, does anybody know of a way to run original quickbasic code? lang is https://esolangs.org/wiki/Hanoi_Love
23:42:26 <asteriska> only interpreter i can find is the reference, in quickbasic, at http://kidsquid.com:443/files/hanoilove/hanoi.txt
23:43:28 <fizzie> Hmm, I wonder if that's *actually* QuickBasic, or if it would also run in QBasic.
23:44:13 <fizzie> Because QBasic you can just run at https://archive.org/details/msdos_qbasic_megapack -- although it'd probably involve typing the program.
23:44:15 <asteriska> fizzie: ive tried repl.it's qbasic interpreter; it does not work there, but i recall getting it working on a dos vm
23:46:00 <fizzie> Think we had a DOS VM bot on-channel too at one point, but the I/O was very very awkward.
23:46:32 <asteriska> that sounds wild
23:47:54 <asteriska> ive got shit for experience in programming, ive looked at c++ and dabbled in python, but realistically i know nothing haha
23:48:15 <asteriska> ive thought of making my own interpreter but id have no clue where to start
23:49:16 <asteriska> w
23:49:34 <asteriska> oh, no shift+enter support on kiwi, ig
23:49:57 <fizzie> Heh, `xdotool type ...` can write text to the archive.org web DOSBox QBasic interpreter. Probably won't help much there though.
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