2021-10-01:

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00:54:51 <esolangs> [[JSCall]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88465&oldid=88453 * Hakerh400 * (+1082) 
02:36:07 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88466 * Maikeru51 * (+907) Created page with " is a golfinglang created by [[User:Maikeru51|Maikeru51]]. It uses emojis as commands.  =Commands= Commands refer to a buffer value. This will be called '''BuffVar'''.  ==..."
02:52:03 <esolangs> [[User:Maikeru51]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88467&oldid=88421 * Maikeru51 * (+6) 
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07:21:43 <nakilon> b_jonas_ what was the IP lookup service you posted here a month ago?
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07:24:23 <nakilon> is there http?
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07:32:35 <b_jonas> nakilon: http://ip6.me/
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08:02:13 <nakilon2> damn nginx, I don't understand it
08:04:53 <nakilon2> https://dpaste.org/hNMv/slim  curl -vx http://my.domain:80 https://api.myip.com
08:05:07 <nakilon2> it worked on my previous server setup but now it does not
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08:05:26 <nakilon2> looks like nginx tries to work as a proxy and does not pass the request to tinyproxy:8888 at all
08:07:03 <nakilon2> curl does > CONNECT api.myip.com:443 HTTP/1.1 and nginx says < HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request
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08:11:47 <nakilon2> while inside the network the "curl --dns-servers 127.0.0.11 -vx tinyproxy:8888 http://api.my-ip.io/ip" works fine (get's 301 to https)
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10:04:09 <riv> I wonder how you would compress a sequence of floating point numbers that tend to be close to each other
10:04:15 <riv> lossless
10:04:35 <myname> zip them :p
10:04:42 <riv> I suppose you could have a 'near' vs 'far' bit that lets you use fewer bits to express a delta when that's nearer
10:04:57 <riv> yeah zip is good too
10:05:25 <riv> it would be good if you could seek, so there could be a limit on how many nears you can have in a row, but that's just encoding
10:05:32 <riv> relative vs absolute, instead of near vs far
10:11:00 <nakilon> depends on the distance U guess
10:11:58 <nakilon> if the distance in close pairs is let's say 32 times shorter and you don't want to precision to become higher then you can save 5 bits I guess
10:12:04 <nakilon> *I guess
10:52:04 <riv> oh i just realized my idea wont be lossless
10:52:09 <riv> since floats aren't translation invariant
11:04:13 <nakilon> there is some joke that 
11:04:18 <nakilon> in war time pi=3
11:36:34 <esolangs> [[Senpai]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88468&oldid=88451 * 4gboframram * (+1255) 
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13:28:19 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88469&oldid=88445 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) /* A */ add
13:40:37 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is working in mysterious ways.
13:40:42 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is working in mysterious ways.
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13:48:08 <int-e> . o O ( Shorter version: "The password of the month is blasphemous." )
13:49:15 <esolangs> [[Senpai]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88470&oldid=88468 * 4gboframram * (+4359) 
13:50:54 <esolangs> [[Senpai]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88471&oldid=88470 * 4gboframram * (-1107) 
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14:13:30 <esolangs> [[Senpai]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88472&oldid=88471 * 4gboframram * (+1436) 
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15:55:38 <nakilon> long-long ago I was told there is a way to calculate Pi by experiment
15:56:18 <nakilon> draw a circle, draw diameter D, take a stick of length D/2 and throw it into the circle randomly
15:56:36 <nakilon> and it will cross the Diameter line in 1/Pi cases
15:57:06 <nakilon> I didn't try to check it but I wonder if it's the most simple way to do it
15:57:07 <Corbin> Nice. This is a variant of Buffon's needle, I think: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffon%27s_needle_problem
15:58:50 <Corbin> Another technique is to put a circle into a square so that all four sides of the square touch the circle. Then randomly fill the square with points, and pi/4 of them will land in the circle.
15:59:26 <nakilon> I guess the Buffon needle method accuracy is limited by the number of lines
16:00:45 <nakilon> yeah that will work too
16:01:13 <nakilon> Buffon's one is better though in the way that it does not need us to be able to draw a circle
16:05:00 <fizzie> Matt Parker, the Standup Mathematician, usually uploads every pi day (March 14) a different way of empirically approximating pi. Usually something very impractical.
16:05:16 <fizzie> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhtC92GarkjyYbxI3-4qzIWIRbZaw4wuP
16:05:39 <fizzie> Weighing a circle was a pretty clever one, I thought.
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16:11:07 <b_jonas> nakilon: yes, but that method and its kin converges exponentially slowly, so it's a very inefficient way to compute pi. I can give you other simple methods that converge much faster.
16:14:22 <nakilon> ?
16:16:05 <b_jonas> although now I wonder exactly how slowly other bad methods converge, including (6 \sum_{1\le k} 1/k^2), (90 \sum_{1\le k} 1/k^4), and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallis_product
16:17:12 <nakilon> meh, rows are not fun
16:17:24 <nakilon> I want to throw things
16:17:30 <nakilon> and just divide
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16:22:09 <riv> :O
16:22:12 <riv> wallis product
16:23:21 <b_jonas> eval $sqrt3 = 1; $sqrt3 = ($sqrt3 + 3 / $sqrt3) / 2 for 0..5; $x = 2 - $sqrt3; $prod = 12; $pi = 0; for $k (1..27) { $prod *= $x; $pi += (0,1,0,-1)[$k%4] * $prod / $k; } $pi # compute pi by evaluating the Taylor series of (12 * atan(x)) around 0 at x = 2 - sqrt(3) = tan(pi/12)
16:23:25 <b_jonas> perlbot eval $sqrt3 = 1; $sqrt3 = ($sqrt3 + 3 / $sqrt3) / 2 for 0..5; $x = 2 - $sqrt3; $prod = 12; $pi = 0; for $k (1..27) { $prod *= $x; $pi += (0,1,0,-1)[$k%4] * $prod / $k; } $pi # compute pi by evaluating the Taylor series of (12 * atan(x)) around 0 at x = 2 - sqrt(3) = tan(pi/12)
16:23:27 <perlbot> b_jonas: 3.14159265358979
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16:24:18 <b_jonas> ^ here's one that converges at a decent speed. it's not the fastest method that you'd put in a library if you want to compute a lot of trigonometry, but it's quick to describe as a one-liner and easy to understand and gives you a linear number of digits instead of an exponential one.
16:24:46 <b_jonas> if you want fast methods, you'd look in bignum libraries of course 
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16:35:29 <nakilon> \rasel J1J//6-"q"/.@
16:35:41 <velik>  output: 3.1415929203539825 , exit code: 0
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19:15:47 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Binary *  New user account
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19:23:19 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88473&oldid=88454 * Binary * (+128) /* Introductions */
19:24:08 <esolangs> [[Terrible]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88474 * Binary * (+80) Created page with "'''Terrible''' is a word in English Language, that describes something very bad."
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20:37:05 <b_jonas> argh, spare phone won't turn on. I can't tell if it's just battery flat or something worse. I have to do the stupid loop { connect good charger, try to turn on, keep charging for an hour, disconnect charger, wait 30 seconds, } procedure
20:37:30 <b_jonas> oh good, now it says it's charging
20:37:44 <b_jonas> so it is probably flat battery
20:43:05 <fizzie> I have a Nexus 5X that just stopped working in the past, I've been wondering if I should fiddle together a serial port cables for it just in case it would help any. IIRC, it did *something* over USB too, but not the normal Android bootloader things, something more manufacturer-specific.
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21:07:43 <b_jonas> this one did start now, so the battery was just flat because this is a spare phone so I rarely bother to charge it
21:07:56 <b_jonas> especially because I didn't travel during the pandemic
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23:20:43 <ais523> is there a standard name for the concept that's equivalent to one variant of a Rust enum, i.e. a tag specifying which of several various possible types something has, together with a list of arguments?
23:21:44 <ais523> not sure I mean "type" here, it's semantically useful to have multiple different tags for the same argument list
23:22:25 <ais523> this seems like a concept that comes up in a lot of contexts and is generally useful, and I'm confused that I don't know what it's called
23:23:28 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88475&oldid=88464 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+89) added code order
23:24:59 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88476&oldid=88475 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+16) added wiki creator clarification
23:26:05 <Corbin> I've seen "case", "claw" (as in having multiple "claws" in a switch), "variant", and "discriminant".
23:26:51 <Corbin> TIL that CORBA calls them https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discriminator
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23:43:11 <imode> ugh.
23:43:14 <imode> I have been stuck.
23:43:16 <imode> for three days.
23:43:21 <imode> on this simple `dup`.
23:44:56 <oerjan> are you saying you've been duped
23:46:26 <imode> https://hastebin.com/wesarudapo.py
23:46:59 <imode> line 207. _dup_num. it should 100% be able to shorten that.
23:47:34 <imode> 362 commands. for that.
23:47:46 <imode> all it does is duplicate a unary number.
23:58:27 <b_jonas> ais523: I think that's called "constructor", at least in Haskell

2021-10-02:

00:00:40 <b_jonas> ais523: but also according to https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/std/mem/fn.discriminant.html rust calls "discriminant" the number that tells only which constructor is used in an enum value, without the parameters for that constructor
00:00:52 <b_jonas> and that page talks about "enum variant"
00:01:45 <oerjan> ais523: your question is vague enough that haskell's "algebraic datatype" seems to apply
00:02:10 <b_jonas> "https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/reference/items/enumerations.html" mentions "variant", "constructor", and "discriminant"
00:02:23 <oerjan> oh hum
00:02:28 <b_jonas> also "enum variant"
00:02:45 <oerjan> misread the question, i think.  what b_jonas said.
00:03:27 <oerjan> (i interpreted "variant" in the colloquial sense)
00:04:06 <keegan> they're sum types, so call them "terms"?
00:04:09 <keegan> and product types have factors?
00:04:30 <b_jonas> you might also try to look in C++ papers, because they use "constructor" for something else so they will probably have different terms
00:07:53 <fizzie> Each of the various different things in an std::variant is an alternative, but that's probably not quite the same.
00:09:11 <oerjan> . o O ( are all these different word for it meta-variants )
00:09:14 <oerjan> *s
00:12:22 <ais523> keegan: Prolog uses "term" but I think that also includes things like integers, which I want to exclude from this
00:12:38 <oerjan> . o O ( a programming language with obstructors and instructors )
00:12:40 <ais523> that said, an integer is probably actually a special case of this in Prolog
00:12:51 <b_jonas> you might look in http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2015/p0095r0.html and its followup papers, that's the paper that suggests first class support for rust-like enums into C++, but I don't know what its afterlife is and what followup papers there are
00:13:01 <oerjan> ais523: i think "functor" is the prolog term?
00:13:13 <ais523> I think functor might be the name for the tag specifically? not sure though
00:13:24 <ais523> I have some prolog docs open at the moment, I've been trying to figure this out
00:13:50 <ais523> looks like "functor" specifically refers to the tag plus the number of arguments
00:13:56 <ais523> e.g. the functor of a(b,c) is a/2
00:14:39 <ais523> oh, got it: the precise Prolog term for what I'm looking for is "compound term"
00:16:51 <ais523> I guess there probably isn't a standard name? this is surprising
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00:18:44 <ais523> hmm, "tagged union" seems fairly universal as a general name for the type these things belong to, but "tagged union value" is a bit of a mouthful
00:18:49 <Corbin> Hm, are we allowing infinite unions? It would be surprising if an integer were a tag value, since that would be hard to exhaustively code against.
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00:20:10 <imode> I've always known that stuff as tagged unions, ais523.
00:21:07 <ais523> Corbin: Prolog does, but I'm not planning to
00:21:31 <ais523> imode: right, I was looking for a name for the sort of thing that's a value of a tagged union (without necessarily needing to indicate which union it belongs to)
00:22:20 <imode> hm. value, I guess? good question..
00:24:15 <ais523> the context is that I'm making a vaguely jsonlike format that handles tagged union / list / integer rather than dictionary / list / integer in a way that maps across languages (primarily for internally representing ASTs in a language I'm writing, although if it ends up useful in other contexts too I have no problem with that)
00:27:36 <ais523> currently I'm leaning towards "term" to represent these, but there's one major issue with that, that discourages me: because I'm extensively representing ASTs in this sort of format, it's going to come into context with grammars a lot, and in the context of a grammar, it represents a nonterminal rather than a terminal
00:29:07 <ais523> (so calling it "term" may be a little confusing juts due to the similarity of names)
00:29:13 <ais523> I may go with it anyway though
00:34:45 <ais523> I guess "object" isn't horrible
00:35:05 <ais523> or maybe there's some sort of definition, defining it by what it isn't (it isn't a number or list)
00:42:29 <zzo38> Do you have other data formats other than union/list/integer (such as byte sequences)?
01:33:43 <ais523> zzo38: I've been considering strings, but I think I'm going to represent them as lists of codepoints
01:33:53 <ais523> (where the codepoitns are integers)
01:34:28 <ais523> also floats but those don't map neatly between languages
01:35:10 <zzo38> How big are integers allowed to be in this format?
01:52:41 <zzo38> Also, do you have a document?
01:55:40 <ais523> zzo38: I think it should allow bignums (although not all programs will be able to read them)
01:56:09 <ais523> and I don't have a document yet because I'm still designing it, I need to work out the details before I can write them down
01:56:15 <zzo38> OK
02:19:53 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm not surprised that there's no standard name yet. these are functional programming concepts, they have all kinds of conflicting names between multiple programming languages that reinvent them with different variants, just like the list operations
02:20:45 <b_jonas> and I think that's a terminology that won't be covered by TAOCP so that can't spread a name either
02:24:34 <imode> we have names like monad and you're wondering why there's no standard name yet? all of them are invented or obscure. :P
02:42:37 <ais523> "monad" is the standard name for a monad, though
02:43:24 <Corbin> There's not even a clear preference for "sum" vs "coproduct" here.
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03:27:05 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88477&oldid=88476 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+130) fixed some inline code blocks
03:31:43 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88478&oldid=88477 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+30) replaced 'hate' with 'strongly disapprove of'
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03:34:43 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88480&oldid=88479 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+4) fixed github link
03:40:29 <oerjan> clearly they should have kept the name "triple" for monads, would have avoided so much confusion hth
03:40:30 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88481&oldid=88480 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+214) added adder example
03:41:08 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88482&oldid=88481 * GoodCoderBBoy * (-49) Removed partial sentence
03:43:10 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88483&oldid=88482 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+4) Added full-stops / periods / circular-punctuation-which-follows-the-end-of-a-sentence.
03:47:23 <esolangs> [[User:GoodCoderBBoy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88484 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+217) create page
03:48:34 <esolangs> [[User talk:GoodCoderBBoy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88485 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+224) created page
04:20:01 <esolangs> [[Composite]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88486 * ArthroStar11 * (+2946) created page and provided link to my interpreter
04:21:40 <esolangs> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88487&oldid=88469 * ArthroStar11 * (+16) added my language "Composite"
04:22:43 <esolangs> [[User:ArthroStar11]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88488&oldid=87640 * ArthroStar11 * (+132) 
04:26:02 <b_jonas> "monad" just doesn't come up much, Haskell is the only one that has it as a full abstraction, as opposed to just particular monads
04:27:33 <zzo38> "Monad" and other names are used in mathematics, and can also be used in a computer program
04:29:24 <b_jonas> and they already have "burrito" as the alternate name, maybe that's what the next generation will call it
04:35:48 <nakilon> burrito was the worst song
04:43:43 <zzo38> Do you know what should be a convention of suffix of file names of composite puzzle sets? (No suffix is required, although perhaps there should be the convention, to be distinguish from non-composite puzzle sets)
04:51:05 <shachaf> ais523: I've heard "summand" sometimes, for part of a sum.
04:51:19 <zzo38> Actually, I saw "summand" too sometimes
05:06:26 <zzo38> Is there a implementation of UNIX compress/uncompress that implements the Quasijarus compression format other than Quasijarus? (I could write one without too much difficulty, but would want to know if there already is in any Linux package)
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06:09:54 <esolangs> [[Talk:XSVL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88489 * ArthroStar11 * (+1182) Created page with "== some observations == Hey, I was looking through your source code and noticed a couple of things. It's perfectly fine the way it is but I feel these may be helpful if you go..."
06:15:58 <esolangs> [[Talk:XSVL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88490&oldid=88489 * ArthroStar11 * (+0) fixed typo in example code
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07:32:47 <esolangs> [[User talk:GoodCoderBBoy]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88491&oldid=88485 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+35) added esolangs created list
07:33:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:GoodCoderBBoy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88492&oldid=88491 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+2) fixed link
07:34:36 <esolangs> [[User talk:GoodCoderBBoy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88493&oldid=88492 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+0) fixed link
07:34:49 <esolangs> [[User:GoodCoderBBoy]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88494&oldid=88484 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+44) added esolangs created list
07:42:54 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88495&oldid=88483 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+374) added exit conditions
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07:46:12 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88496&oldid=88495 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+48) AutomataFuck DOES NOT SUPPORT NESTED LOOPS.
07:48:01 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88497&oldid=88496 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+50) how do nested loops behave
07:49:24 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88498&oldid=88497 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+15) code execution updated
07:52:44 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88499&oldid=88498 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+99) implementations section
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08:33:03 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88500&oldid=88499 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+159) Details and corrections
09:19:04 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88501&oldid=88500 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+1) moved categories to the bottom
09:23:44 <esolangs> [[WikiFuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88502 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+1247) Page created
09:24:27 <esolangs> [[WikiFuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88503&oldid=88502 * GoodCoderBBoy * (-14) made code inline
09:25:38 <esolangs> [[WikiFuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88504&oldid=88503 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+14) undid last edit
09:36:07 <esolangs> [[Kolmogorov]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88505&oldid=88363 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+178) Added a hyperlink to the 99 bottles of beer program to the external sources.
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09:50:54 <esolangs> [[WikiFuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88506&oldid=88504 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+1129) instruction table
09:57:12 <esolangs> [[WikiFuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88507&oldid=88506 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+37) added credit
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10:20:44 <nakilon> I wish new languages were not just memes around the esolang wiki
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13:10:06 <Corbin> Yeah, the whole "what if I made silly syntax!?" urge is boring. At the same time, it's a necessary byproduct of refusing to agree on society's typical limitations for programming languages; we don't require readability.
13:39:57 <int-e> `factor 1114111
13:39:57 <HackEso> 1114111: 1114111
13:40:19 <int-e> > maxBound :: Char
13:40:21 <lambdabot>  '\1114111'
13:41:10 <int-e> `factor 111412
13:41:11 <HackEso> 111412: 2 2 7 23 173
13:43:00 <int-e> At least this one is fleshed out and implemented
14:09:33 <fizzie> 1114111, is that the Unicode number? Yeah. So recognizable.
14:11:14 <riv> well spotted
14:12:41 <int-e> cursed video games controls: qsdz for ←↓→↑ and no option to remap keys
14:14:13 <int-e> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AZERTY is why)
14:14:35 <fizzie> Oh, I thought it was something designed for someone who's sitting at a 45° angle with respect to the keyboard, and off to the left.
14:16:41 <fizzie> We had a school trip to CERN once, all the keyboards there are azerty. I zqs spelling qll zeird qll the time.
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15:30:36 <Melvar> `factor 1114112
15:30:37 <HackEso> 1114112: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 17
15:31:27 <Melvar> (Seventeen planes of 2¹⁶ codepoints each.)
15:32:46 <int-e> oops
15:35:57 <Melvar> Also written as 0x110000.
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15:47:07 <int-e> also the limit of what utf-16 can encode
15:47:39 <int-e> FWIW, "oops" was less about the typo and more about not immediately realizing that the result I got was nonsense.
15:52:40 <Melvar> I figured as much. The typo happens to anyone.
16:10:57 <Melvar> Is there a stack lang with algebraic data types?
16:18:03 <int-e> . o O ( STG? )
16:18:52 <int-e> I guess that is a serious answer, really... look at implementations of functional programming languages and you'll find such things.
16:21:48 <Corbin> Does it have to be a stack language, or just a tacit/concatenative language?
16:21:52 <Melvar> Huh. Didn’t realize that was stack-based? Though now that I think about it … the scraps I’ve heard sort of make that answer make sense.
16:25:26 <Melvar> Hmm, well, I was thinking about a specific way to have construction / deconstruction work that depends on a stack. (cons that packs the tag atop the stack and the field values below it into a single stack element, uncons that reverses this, case/match which branches on a tag).
16:25:59 <Melvar> And was wondering whether this has been done before and what alternatives there are to accomplish the same thing.
16:26:26 <Corbin> Sure. Have you seen Joy?
16:26:37 <Melvar> Not really?
16:27:09 <Corbin> Ah. Joy would be a good language to look at, then. http://tunes.org/~iepos/joy.html is a decent introduction which skips a lot of the category theory.
16:28:01 <Corbin> The main issue is *custom* data types. Any high-level labeled ADT can be built from basic ingredients: Sums, products, fixpoints. The labeling is the valuable ingredient, as it can be used to enforce well-typedness in certain nice ways.
16:30:09 <Melvar> Oh, I actually read that concatenative combinators page.
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20:24:58 <esolangs> [[Stardust]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88508&oldid=88440 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1815) Blanked the page
20:25:21 <esolangs> [[Starstuff]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88509 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1816) Created page with " '''Starstuff''' is a (family of) programming language(s) by [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]. It is designed such that an arbitrary sequence of characters can be interpreted as sou..."
20:25:57 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88510&oldid=88437 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Stardust */
20:27:01 <esolangs> [[Starstuff]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88511&oldid=88509 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) 
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22:38:43 <fizzie> Windows Update sure can be vague: "We need to do a few more things before you can update. We'll let you know when we're done and what to do next. This window will automatically close in 2 minutes."
22:39:12 <fizzie> (Booted it for the first time in a year or so, it's always a huge mess of updates.)
22:43:41 <shachaf> Those things always happen when I boot to Windows.
22:44:03 <shachaf> Why is updating such a mess?
22:44:20 <shachaf> Shouldn't it be possible to do everything in the background unintrusively until the final switch to the new configuration, which should be instant?
22:44:26 <shachaf> I mean, even in the cases where you need to reboot.
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22:49:05 <Hooloovoo> ... yeah, that's nice, until it eats 100% of your disk access time (at high priority, or something), and actually using the computer for anything is impossible
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00:23:19 <oerjan> Hooloovoo: you'd think _not_ giving it high priority would be the point of doing such things in the background, but no...
00:23:43 <Hooloovoo> it *may* have been a case of failing drives. not sure
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01:05:48 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88512&oldid=88405 * Corbin * (+19) /* Floating Point */ Add function for getting sign bit. Turns out that it can't be built from f-lt alone, thanks to -0.0.
01:42:44 <esolangs> [[Starstuff]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88513&oldid=88511 * PixelatedStarfish * (+112) /* Compiling */
01:42:59 <esolangs> [[Starstuff]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88514&oldid=88513 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Base 200 Compiler */
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03:49:35 <imode> what's a good way to compress brainfuck?
03:59:34 <esolangs> [[Starstuff]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88515&oldid=88514 * PixelatedStarfish * (-88) /* Base 200 Compiler */
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04:31:46 <esolangs> [[Twink]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88516 * PixelatedStarfish * (+849) Created page with "'''Twink''' is a programming language created by [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]. It is designed for [[Starstuff]] such that any sequence of characters can be converted to runnable..."
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04:33:17 <esolangs> [[Starstuff]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88517&oldid=88515 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Hexadecimal Compiler */
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04:33:45 <esolangs> [[Starstuff]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88518&oldid=88517 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Modulo Compiler */
04:34:22 <esolangs> [[Starstuff]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88519&oldid=88518 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) 
04:34:46 <esolangs> [[Twink]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88520&oldid=88516 * PixelatedStarfish * (+70) 
04:36:43 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88521&oldid=88510 * PixelatedStarfish * (+94) /* Starstuff */
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04:40:17 <esolangs> [[Starstuff]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88522&oldid=88519 * PixelatedStarfish * (+5) /* Decimal Compiler */
04:40:34 <esolangs> [[Starstuff]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88523&oldid=88522 * PixelatedStarfish * (-14) /* Modulo Compiler */
04:40:46 <esolangs> [[Starstuff]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88524&oldid=88523 * PixelatedStarfish * (-14) /* Cumulative Compiler */
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04:41:29 <esolangs> [[Twink]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88525&oldid=88520 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Commands */
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04:46:46 <esolangs> [[Twink]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88526&oldid=88525 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Commands */
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10:16:48 <fizzie> Heh, that's odd. There's this monitor, even if it's not connected to power at all (all outlets here have physical power switches in them) the computer says it's connected, and can tell the make, model and supported resolutions. I guess it gets enough juice over HDMI to run that much of the logic, and uses the real power supply just to drive the actual display part of it.
12:03:08 <esolangs> [[)0,1(]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88528&oldid=88436 * Rphii * (-23) /* Motivation */ grammar
13:03:17 <int-e> 5V/55mA is plenty for a bit of logic.
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13:04:35 <int-e> I actually wouldn't be surprised if the standard mandated that functionality. But (as usual) I'm too lazy to check... it is of little consequence.
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13:14:11 <sknebel> basic implementation of DCC is just an I2C memory chip connected to power and I2C line on the connector, doesnt need any connection to the other electronics in the monitor
13:14:52 <sknebel> not sure if mandated, but certainly intended to work that way
13:22:07 <fizzie> I guess it makes sense. Slightly a shame, though: I was hoping I'd get a monitor hotplug event from turning that thing on/off, but of course it just appears connected all the time.
13:34:34 <b_jonas> "I zqs spelling qll zeird qll the time." => the "m" in "time" is wrong
13:44:46 <fizzie> Oh, that too. All the ti,e.
13:45:07 <fizzie> I didn't *actually* switch layouts there, I just tried to approximate.
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16:30:51 <arseniiv> you know the notion that a space has cardinality equal to sum of 1/N for each orbit where N is the cardinality of that orbit? Could we think of something simple having cardinality, say, 7/2? Can’t pair an odd number of elements, so the simplest approach fails
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17:08:20 <Corbin> arseniiv: Have you read Baez & Dolan on this topic? A set with seven elements, quotiented by a set with two elements, will do the trick. We can think of six of seven elements as grouped in pairs, and then the seventh element is mapped to itself.
17:09:11 <Corbin> All of the pairs have two automorphisms (they're ordered), but the seventh element only has one because it's equal to itself; it counts for half. This gives 7/2.
17:10:22 <Corbin> https://arxiv.org/abs/math/0004133 explains this in painful but fun detail, building a weak quotient which has the desired property.
17:11:26 <Corbin> Tao might be more readable: https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2017/04/13/counting-objects-up-to-isomorphism-groupoid-cardinality/
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17:22:42 <arseniiv> Corbin: wouldn’t 6 paired elements need to be counted as 3 then?
17:23:27 <Corbin> arseniiv: Yeah, and indeed 3 + 1/2 == 7/2 in traditional arithmetic.
17:26:05 <Corbin> You can look directly at p13 of Baez & Dolan for some helpful diagrams. They use the example of 5/2.
17:26:30 <Corbin> (But you'll have to read the first half of the paper if you want the justification for why it's allowed.)
17:26:53 <arseniiv> I came up with a groupoid with objects in isomorphy classes of 1, 2, …, 33 objects, each one having two isos to each of isomorphic objects, one iso is a “direct” one and one is a “twisting” one, two twisting composing to a direct, and a direct from an object to itself is its id, thus all compositions are defined correctly and that’s indeed a groupoid. Then we have 33 isomorphism classes and each o
17:27:59 <arseniiv> Corbin: oh, thanks for the Tao link, didn’t read him about that
17:28:22 <arseniiv> Corbin: 3 + 1/2 = 7/2 oops I forgot how to calculate
17:28:52 <Corbin> Mm, so you'd have 33 isomorphism classes over a weak quotient of two automorphisms each, for a cardinality of 33/2? I admit that I still don't understand it fully.
17:29:24 <arseniiv> oh I forgot to mention my N was actually 33 and forgot that I simplified it to 7 but did elaborate in ##math afterwards. Lose track of two threads at once
17:30:28 <arseniiv> Corbin: I’ll read Tao and write with which of we wrote that aligns better
17:30:48 <Corbin> Cool, good luck.
17:31:40 <arseniiv> oh a bit of a post got eaten off, it didn’t happen before to my client, it chunked overlong posts before
17:31:55 <arseniiv> thanks :) let’s see
17:50:57 <arseniiv> Corbin: yeah, Tao indeed starts with weighing 1/|[x]| for each element x but then he shows this troubles uniform sampling and corrects that to 1/(number of isos from x), which is in accordance with counting just auts for a single representative of each isomorphism class
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17:57:30 <arseniiv> ah, we could just have {−16, …, +16} acted by {x ↦ +x, x ↦ −x} after all. Then the corresponding groupoid will have two auts for {0} and just one for any representative of {−n, +n} for nonzero n, so overall 16 + 1/2 = 33/2
17:57:49 <arseniiv> it can be pretty confusing
17:58:11 <arseniiv> now how could I make rot cypher with this…
17:59:01 <arseniiv> I need to treat almost half of the alphabet somewhat interchangeable but not totally interchangeable… eh
18:09:42 <arseniiv> I guess I made it unknowingly! x ↦ −x here is the rot-33/2 I looked for
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20:51:00 <esolangs> [[InterpretMe]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88529&oldid=87755 * OliveIsAWord * (-48) 
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21:04:16 <esolangs> [[3switchBF]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88530&oldid=73804 * OliveIsAWord * (-45) refactored python code
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22:43:06 <zzo38> Do they drag boats by horses?
22:43:51 <keegan> along canals yes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Towpath
22:45:01 <keegan> not so much anymore
22:58:47 <zzo38> I was playing the GURPS earlier today, and that is what they did, or at least what they tried to do. But, the boat was too slow and the horse refused to move due to seeing something unsafe. So, instead we took the sign attached to the horse (we were trying to alert someone on the island) and attached it to the boat to use as a sail; fortunately the wind was correct for doing that.
23:07:50 <keegan> oh, that's fortunate
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2021-10-04:

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02:56:50 <oerjan> whee my Dbfi derivative now can run . and ,
02:57:04 <oerjan> now i just need it to manage to halt next...
02:57:34 <oerjan> (<>[] still unimplemented/unadapted)
03:01:59 <oerjan> hm actually the order it runs , and . and my debug printing makes no sense
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03:20:21 <esolangs> [[Astridec]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88531 * PixelatedStarfish * (+932) Created page with "'''Astridec''' is a programming language created by [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]. It is designed for [[Starstuff]] such that any sequence of characters can be converted to runna..."
03:20:34 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88532&oldid=88521 * PixelatedStarfish * (+3) /* Twink */
03:23:12 <esolangs> [[Twink]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88533&oldid=88527 * PixelatedStarfish * (-806) 
03:24:04 <esolangs> [[Starstuff]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88534&oldid=88524 * PixelatedStarfish * (+12) 
03:24:41 <esolangs> [[Starstuff]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88535&oldid=88534 * PixelatedStarfish * (-62) /* Cumulative Compiler */
03:25:05 <esolangs> [[Starstuff]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88536&oldid=88535 * PixelatedStarfish * (-17) /* Modulo Compiler */
03:25:14 <esolangs> [[Starstuff]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88537&oldid=88536 * PixelatedStarfish * (+5) /* Decimal Compiler */
03:26:15 <Corbin> I wonder if PixelatedStarfish has, like, a roadmap of some sort. It seems like they're producing many IRs but I'm not sure what their overall compilation strategy is supposed to be.
03:26:34 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88538&oldid=88531 * PixelatedStarfish * (+28) /* Commands */
03:29:01 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88539&oldid=88538 * PixelatedStarfish * (-4) 
03:29:18 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88540&oldid=88539 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) 
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03:32:58 <oerjan> yay it halts and seems to run all +-., commands correctly
03:33:58 <oerjan> (and all the bugs so far were stupid mistakes)
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03:48:48 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88541&oldid=88532 * PixelatedStarfish * (+18) /* Blood32 */
03:53:46 <esolangs> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88542&oldid=88487 * PixelatedStarfish * (+15) /* A */
03:55:35 <esolangs> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88543&oldid=88542 * PixelatedStarfish * (+16) /* S */
04:08:09 <oerjan> [ seems to work
04:08:09 <j-bot> oerjan: seems to work
04:09:38 <oerjan> i'm glad you agree
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07:08:34 <esolangs> [[Talk:BrainfisHQ9+]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88544 * ArthroStar11 * (+575) Created page with "== My interpreter == I have updated my interpreter fix the looping bugs in the brainfuck portion of the language and the interpreter is now fully backwards compatible with all..."
07:23:06 <nakilon> was billed for $6 for a server on GCP
07:23:30 <nakilon> switched the machine type to get into the Free Tier and pay $0
07:23:38 <nakilon> was billed for $10
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09:25:12 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88545&oldid=88501 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+96) added truth machine example
09:28:53 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88546&oldid=88545 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+112) minor changes
09:32:52 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88547&oldid=88546 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+100) added link to truth machine
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12:21:00 <esolangs> [[Senpai]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88548&oldid=88472 * 4gboframram * (+15) /* Expressions */
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14:32:52 <esolangs> [[Senpai]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88549&oldid=88548 * 4gboframram * (+127) /* Expressions */
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15:06:47 <esolangs> [[Senpai]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88550&oldid=88549 * 4gboframram * (+392) /* Examples */  Added Quine
15:12:28 <esolangs> [[Senpai]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88551&oldid=88550 * 4gboframram * (+2) /* Quine */
15:14:02 <esolangs> [[Senpai]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88552&oldid=88551 * 4gboframram * (+59) /* Quine */
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15:15:40 <esolangs> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88553&oldid=88543 * 4gboframram * (+13) /* S */
15:20:24 <esolangs> [[List of quines]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88554&oldid=87217 * 4gboframram * (+418) 
15:38:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Zapasite *  New user account
15:52:11 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88555&oldid=88473 * Zapasite * (+180) 
15:53:36 <esolangs> [[Jelly]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88556&oldid=87250 * Zapasite * (+32) 
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17:41:29 <esolangs> [[Senpai]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88557&oldid=88552 * 4gboframram * (+289) A little bit more info on Variables
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18:17:13 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88558&oldid=88540 * PixelatedStarfish * (+22) 
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18:19:22 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88559&oldid=88558 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Commands */
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18:24:17 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88560&oldid=88559 * PixelatedStarfish * (+24) 
18:24:27 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88561&oldid=88560 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) 
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19:41:09 <nakilon> weird that there is no name for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travelling_salesman_problem without a return to origin
19:43:20 <nakilon> imagine that you have a bunch of photos and you want to order them in such way that playing the sequence would be rather smooth than chaotic
19:43:41 <nakilon> and there is no need to have start match the end
19:44:17 <nakilon> imagine if these are photos of a landscape during the day and they got shuffled
19:47:29 <riv> eulerian vs hamiltonian cycle/path?
19:47:49 <fizzie> I think that distinction is more the cycle vs. path part.
19:48:45 <fizzie> "The Shortest Hamiltonian Path Problem (SHPP) is similar to the Traveling Salesperson Problem (TSP). You have to visit all the cities, starting from a given one and you do not need to return to your starting point."
19:49:06 <fizzie> Although you could argue that's not really a name, more a description.
19:53:02 <int-e> . o O ( Retiring Salesperson Problem )
19:53:53 <Corbin> I've heard several names for it, based on the real-world problems involving garbage trucks, busses, or other vehicles with home garages.
19:53:54 <fizzie> Although that quoted bit conflates two changes: the bit that it's a path rather than cycle, and the bit that the starting point is fixed. I imagine there's no reason why you couldn't also just ask for the shortest Hamiltonian path from any starting point.
19:53:57 <int-e> Though I guess that suggests a fixed starting point, meh
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20:06:49 <fizzie> FWIW, apparently you can pretty much reduce either to the other. For the picture thing, add one extra photo at a fixed distance from all the other photos, and find the shortest Hamiltonian cycle: that gives the shortest Hamiltonian path on the original photos.
20:17:34 <Taneb> Oh, that's a neat trick
20:20:32 <fizzie> The other way around is trickier: you add two extra vertices with degree 1 (so they have to be the start and end of any Hamiltonian path), attach one to an arbitrary vertex and the other of a copy of that vertex with the same neighbours, and then find the shortest Hamiltonian path, which is then the shortest Hamiltonian cycle in the original graph (treating the copy as the original).
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2021-10-05:

00:47:18 <fizzie> Bluh. I "fixed" my "status bars get all confused when monitor configurations change" issue by just having the bar thing sort monitors by position (so that the numbering is stable), but now the problem is, Xmonad still uses the "physical" numbers when sending the status updates (window titles, visible workspaces) so now they're showing the wrong thing.
00:49:02 <fizzie> Really, I'd be fine sticking with the physical numbering (it's very predictable for this setup), the problem would seem to be that GTK invents its own way of numbering them when it's a long-running process; the numbers match initially, but get out of sync whenever there's any changes.
00:55:01 <fizzie> Hmm. Maybe they don't, after all. At least now that I'm querying them via the Display rather than the Screen.
01:02:49 <zzo38> There are many things I dislike about GTK, although that isn't one of the things I have had to deal with
01:13:26 <Sgeo> `olist 1245
01:13:28 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1245.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
01:18:34 <esolangs> [[Keg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88562&oldid=79841 * Iamn00b * (+2) /* Design Principles */
01:44:37 <esolangs> [[Talk:Keg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88563&oldid=65056 * Iamn00b * (+269) 
01:45:05 <esolangs> [[Talk:Keg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88564&oldid=88563 * Iamn00b * (+74) 
01:53:07 <esolangs> [[Talk:Keg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88565&oldid=88564 * Iamn00b * (+13) /* Regarding multiple-digit numbers */
02:13:21 <Sgeo> a-floor(a/3) = ceil(2a/3)?
02:15:23 <Sgeo> I'll take this graph as a no on that
02:23:58 <fizzie> a-floor(...) isn't an integer unless a is one, while ceil(...) is one always.
02:24:34 <Sgeo> a is always an integer. The graphing thing I'm looking at doesn't know that >.>
02:27:07 <fizzie> In that case, I'd probably just consider the three cases of a = 3b, a = 3b+1 and a = 3b+2, for an integer b.
02:32:02 <fizzie> If a = 3b, a-floor(a/3) = 3b-floor(b) = 3b-b = 2b, ceil(2a/3) = ceil(2b) = 2b, so it's true for that.
02:32:05 <fizzie> If a = 3b+1, then a-floor(a/3) = 3b+1-floor(b+1/3) = 3b+1-b = 2b+1, while ceil(2a/3) = ceil(2(3b+1)/3) = ceil(2b+2/3) = 2b+1, so it's true for that too.
02:35:01 <fizzie> And if a = 3b+2, then a-floor(a/3) = 3b+2-floor(b+2/3) = 3b+2-b = 2b+2, while ceil(2a/3) = ceil(2(3b+2)/3) = ceil(2b+4/3) = 2b+2, so it's true in that last case too.
02:35:30 <Sgeo>  /^[^#][0-9a-fA-F]+$/.test("red")
02:35:31 <Sgeo> true
02:35:49 <Sgeo> Did I forget the alphabet? Is r between a and f?
02:36:20 <Sgeo> ....r isn't a # character
02:36:23 <fizzie> No, but it's [^#].
02:36:28 <fizzie> Right.
02:58:05 <int-e> Hmm... https://research.ibm.com//haifa/ponderthis/challenges/October2021.html isn't so hard
02:59:34 <int-e> (Well, I think this has the potential to be hard, but the concrete instances to be solved aren't.)
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07:05:24 <b_jonas> is there a time-traveling salesman problem?
07:06:57 <nakilon> that would be the landscape photos
07:08:03 <nakilon> is sitting and waiting an "a bit forward time travelling"
07:08:05 <nakilon> ?
07:09:32 <nakilon> hmmm if rafting can be considered a travelling then I'm a time traveller
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07:27:47 <nakilon> wtf ubuntu suddenly decided to stop everything https://dpaste.org/Cc3x/slim
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07:34:20 <nakilon> probably I need "apt-mark hold"
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08:06:39 <nakilon> lmao dude drew this in MS Paint I guess https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8-%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8#/media/%D0%A4%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BB:Tic-tac-toe-full-game-tree-x-rational.png
08:07:20 <nakilon> (3rd from left, 3rd from bottom) can't go right down, the arrow is wrong
08:07:58 <riv> no analysis for middle of edge...
08:08:21 <nakilon> since I don't see this image in English article I guess there it was already removed but in Ru no one spotted
08:08:30 <nakilon> this one looks better https://gfredericks.com/blog/76
08:08:41 <nakilon> riv title says it's "partial"
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08:09:26 <nakilon> oh wait, there is also a Description of this file at the bottom, it's in Russian and it says it's "full"
08:09:30 <nakilon> facepalm
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08:14:53 <nakilon> yeah author is Russian so it probably wasn't copied from Eng article but is his own drawing https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA:Mike_like0708
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08:22:45 <nakilon> velik how do you like that Ubuntu has killed you?
08:22:50 <velik>  yes, conventions are a rightmost sense because those... There are hanled years although do happen whether doing especially
08:23:24 <b_jonas> nakilon: do you mean https://xkcd.com/832/ ? see its errors listed in https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/832:_Tic-Tac-Toe#Errors before you use it
08:23:25 <nakilon> velik are you now brain damaged?
08:23:29 <velik>  but already, you can know lists over libraries to forget the instruction to use? Version dies bluetooth, but too breaks abcdefghij...
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08:24:55 <nakilon> b_jonas I guess there is automatically drawn one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tic-tac-toe#/media/File:Tictactoe-O.svg
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08:27:25 <b_jonas> fungot, are you hosted on facebook servers?
08:27:26 <fungot> b_jonas: of yourse it matters to me
08:27:53 <nakilon> velik are you?
08:28:05 <velik>  hi oh wow
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10:16:44 <fizzie> Is the TTTSP actually just the same as the minimum spanning tree? 
10:16:52 <fizzie> Well, I guess it depends on your time travel model.
10:17:39 <fizzie> I was assuming the one where your salesman can jump back to any city they've already been and go somewhere else, without having to visit those cities they've "already" been to in the other timeline.
10:21:24 <wib_jonas> hmm
10:21:51 <wib_jonas> fungot, is the time-traveling salesman problem actually just the same as the minimum spanning tree?
10:21:51 <fungot> wib_jonas: what do you mean ' the compiler'), but
10:22:01 <nakilon> if you mean teleportation it does not have to be a single tree
10:22:52 <fizzie> Time-travel isn't teleportation.
10:22:58 <nakilon> or you could teleport to all them directly tough
10:23:03 <nakilon> ok then I don't get you
10:23:29 <fizzie> Well, I don't know how exactly going forward in time would work for that problem.
10:23:30 <nakilon> oh I got you, you mean the backtracking
10:24:12 <nakilon> also you can wait in place until the town grows and covers your location
10:27:27 <nakilon> but if you get back in time the branch is no longer visited
10:28:14 <nakilon> unless you go back with something from the branch, like it you were time-travelling robber
10:28:18 <nakilon> *like if
10:29:32 <wib_jonas> fizzie: so in your model, would time travel rewind the world *and* the salesman's location, but not the salesman's body and mind, so they still get aged and spend subjective time in the branch that they rewound?
10:30:24 <wib_jonas> of course there's the original problem of why the salesman isn't allowed to visit the same town twice, I presume that's because after he tries to sell his stuff people there hate him so much that it would be dangerous for him to return
10:31:00 <wib_jonas> he's the traveling conman who can only do his con once in each town, and he has to travel very fast so that he can be faster than the news travels
11:02:09 <nakilon> he needs to sell things online
11:02:15 <nakilon> to be faster than news travel
11:02:55 <nakilon> hmmm actually this explains why people are being taught to stop writing and do only reading in internet
11:04:34 <nakilon> just few weeks ago I realised that the internet (at least Runet) was very different just 10 years ago -- all people were blogging and participating in forums, while now no one has a blog, the term "blog" has been actually redefined to "paid photos of new brand clothing in Instagram"
11:05:44 <nakilon> and no one participates in forums, admins stop paying for hosting, and only web archive has 0.1% of them indexed
11:07:02 <nakilon> writing and posting is discouraged because it would allow you to spread news about bad salesmen
11:23:24 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88566&oldid=88119 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+0) /* Befunk */ Made an edit to Befunk example due to an edit on the Befunk article
11:23:29 <esolangs> [[Befunk]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88567&oldid=88198 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+13) Made an edit to the Hello world program due to a previous edit.
11:30:45 <esolangs> [[Talk:Befunk]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88568&oldid=82368 * Nakilon * (+152) /* consider using netpbm */ new section
11:32:22 <wib_jonas> I wonder if there's a case when some software or other creative work allows you to distribute it under any of two copyright licences with different conditions, and you distribute that software and gain advantage from not specifying which of the two license conditions you are planning to satisfy. 
11:35:18 <wib_jonas> For example, the two licences are the Mozilla one and the GPL, you distribute only the binary and refuse to give the source code because you claim that the Mozilla license allows you to not give out the sourcecode, but also patent some technology that you use in your modifications, and refuse to give a patent license, claiming that the GPL allows
11:35:19 <wib_jonas> you to not give a patent license. You aren't allowed to do both of those, but it's unclear how anyone else can enforce that, because I don't see how they could make you say which license conditions you're using to distribute the software.
11:35:47 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88569&oldid=88230 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+13) /* Befunk */ Edit code due to Stasoid's edit on Befunk
11:38:52 <wib_jonas> except that example doesn't work
11:39:13 <wib_jonas> but I wonder if there's a plausible example with existing dual-licensed works
11:49:05 <esolangs> [[Fugue]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88570&oldid=78990 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+24) Changed link target
11:59:26 <nakilon> can't you have the same software mirrored under two different titles?
12:00:03 <nakilon> and claim that they are different, it's just a coincidence that you won't find any difference other than the name
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12:18:26 <daggy1234[m]> l
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13:26:27 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/oYVaHMC.png
13:26:39 <nakilon> this is how I imagine the algorithm
13:28:03 <nakilon> you start connecting the closest pairs until you get 3-star, then you take these 4 vertices and bruteforce all ways to join them, blacklisting the edge that was discarded
13:28:24 <nakilon> then go to the next 3-star
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13:49:39 <nakilon> but depending on whether I allow creating a conflict line only starting with some of the existing ends or not, it leads to two different results in this case https://i.imgur.com/88etK7t.png
13:51:18 <nakilon> I guess the bottom one not only avoids bruteforcing more than 3-star but also ends up more correctly
13:52:45 <nakilon> now I wonder if tehre is a counter example where even in the bottom algorithm it would produce a conflict line with two 3-stars on some >=2th step
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14:39:28 <nakilon> also the blacklist should be cleared after the conflict is resolved before the next line added  (that we do until everything is connected, i.e. edges = vertices - 1)
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18:04:41 <esolangs> [[Headass]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88571&oldid=87350 * TheJonyMyster * (+82) documented bug in implementation that im not going to fix lol
18:10:49 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move  * InfiniteDonuts *  moved [[Seltzer Spigot]] to [[Seltzer]]: Rename "Seltzer Spigot" to just "Seltzer"
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19:05:17 <zzo38> Should the "attack" and "defense" stats in Pokemon be called "physical attack" and "physical defense" instead?
19:07:22 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, it's originally a Game Boy game, so all the text has to be short to fit on the screen easily
19:13:04 <zzo38> In the original game yes, but I mean to change it for newer games. This is to distinguish from "special attack" and "special defense".
19:22:13 <zzo38> (The first game just had a "special" stat, although newer ones have "special attack" and "special defense")
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20:25:38 <esolangs> [[Digital Miracle]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88574 * Hakerh400 * (+10278) +[[Digital Miracle]]
20:26:00 <esolangs> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88575&oldid=88553 * Hakerh400 * (+22) +[[Digital Miracle]]
20:26:15 <esolangs> [[User:Hakerh400]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88576&oldid=88446 * Hakerh400 * (+22) +[[Digital Miracle]]
20:36:34 <esolangs> [[Digital Miracle]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88577&oldid=88574 * Hakerh400 * (+0) /* Equality */
20:39:45 <esolangs> [[Digital Miracle]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88578&oldid=88577 * Hakerh400 * (+4) 
20:44:50 <esolangs> [[FlipJump]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88579&oldid=88450 * Tomhe * (+1558) /* The Standard Library */ - hex.mul update, lookup-tables explanation.
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22:35:41 <nakilon> someone said about gameboy
22:37:16 <nakilon> just randomly read about Mednonogov (guy who made several cool games for ZX Spectrum in early 90s when was a student), then visited his group in vk.com, then found that tehre is an IDE for Oberon https://github.com/Oleg-N-Cher/XDev
22:38:21 <nakilon> there was some repo for programming for gameboy here https://github.com/Oleg-N-Cher?tab=repositories&q=&type=source&language=&sort= and looks like Github thinks Oberon is Modula-2
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2021-10-06:

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00:35:34 <fizzie> Re the monitor enumeration thing, I think the problem is, GTK (well, GDK) prefers not to renumber a monitor that's not "changing". So if I have monitors 0=A 1=B matching the X physical screen numbering, unplug A to leave 0=B, and then re-plug A again, what I get from GDK is 0=B 1=A (so that B gets to keep the number), but what XMonad `rescreen` sees is the original "natural" 0=A 1=B due to just
00:35:36 <fizzie> re-fetching the Xinerama info.
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02:27:59 <oerjan> `addquote <wib_jonas> of course there's the original problem of why the salesman isn't allowed to visit the same town twice, I presume that's because after he tries to sell his stuff people there hate him so much that it would be dangerous for him to return
02:28:05 <HackEso> 1336) <wib_jonas> of course there's the original problem of why the salesman isn't allowed to visit the same town twice, I presume that's because after he tries to sell his stuff people there hate him so much that it would be dangerous for him to return
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02:29:55 <esolangs> [[Talk:BytePusher]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88580&oldid=60091 * Iamn00b * (+392) 
02:30:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:BytePusher]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88581&oldid=88580 * Iamn00b * (+11) /* Difficulty accessing resources in external websites */
02:31:53 <zzo38> Internet MIME types can have + to indicate the format of the data, e.g. JSON or ZIP. Is there a code to specify that the format is plain text (even if the type isn't plain text)?
02:38:34 <esolangs> [[Spellcaster]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88582&oldid=88352 * Maikeru51 * (+1231) Pretty Much Changed Everything.
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02:59:20 <zzo38> Perhaps the MIME type system is not quite good enough. To properly specify a file format might need the (format,type,usage) triple, with the possibility of specifying more than one of each, either chaining or independent, and with separate parameters for each. However, that seems too complicated.
03:02:26 <zzo38> (Actually, even if such a format is used, separating them into a triple like this perhaps doesn't work.)
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06:48:38 <esolangs> [[Talk:Befunk]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88583&oldid=88568 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+346) Colored one of the questions gray
06:50:45 <oerjan> My brainfuck self-interpreter (modified from dbfi) is now working!
06:52:21 <oerjan> i mailed it to Clive Gifford (the eigenratio guy), i'll probably put it on the wiki later
06:54:02 <oerjan> (it is designed to be the first(?) bf self-interpreter with a proper eigenratio)
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06:55:15 <oerjan> (i feel like letting him see it first)
06:55:54 <oerjan> hm come to think of it, i haven't tested it recursively yet
06:56:03 <oerjan> let's see if TIO handles that >:)
06:56:42 <b_jonas> oerjan: what kind of eigenratio? tape use, or speed?
06:57:24 <oerjan> speed
06:57:52 <oerjan> tape use should be linear as i have no internal padding in the simulated tape
06:58:06 <oerjan> (so i guess that ratio is 1)
06:58:43 <oerjan> well technically it's number of instructions run
06:59:03 <oerjan> lest we introduce real world resource limits into it
06:59:34 <oerjan> it uses the technique of implementing >< by shifting the program code on the tape
07:00:01 <oerjan> also it managed to run itself recursively on the program ,[.,]!a just fine
07:00:14 <oerjan> let me add another iteration >:)
07:01:53 <oerjan> ok now it is taking its sweet time
07:02:23 <oerjan> went from 0.3 s to probably timing out on TIO
07:02:38 <oerjan> (60 s limit)
07:04:00 <oerjan> let me remove an iteration and do something like ^rev
07:04:03 <oerjan> ^rev test
07:04:03 <fungot> tset
07:05:37 <oerjan> that took 0.897 s
07:06:05 <oerjan> mind you, i expect the eigenratio to be in the hundreds at least
07:09:40 <oerjan> hm with no recursion is still 0.456 s for ^rev test, i guess TIO startup dominates
07:11:44 <b_jonas> ok, so it's recursion efficient in both tape use and instruction count
07:12:14 <b_jonas> do you get a good eigenratio by recognizing itself and interpreting itself quickly?
07:12:26 <b_jonas> or like recognizing main loops of itself quickly
07:12:55 <oerjan> i don't expect a _good_ eigenratio
07:13:04 <b_jonas> huh
07:13:12 <b_jonas> then what do you expect?
07:13:21 <b_jonas> or why did you bring up an eigenratio?
07:13:30 <b_jonas> s/an ei/the ei/
07:14:12 <oerjan> because most brainfuck self-interpreters don't have any at all, their speed grows as exp(O(n^2)) instead of the needed exp(O(n))
07:14:23 <oerjan> when you stack n of them
07:14:56 <b_jonas> hmm
07:15:28 <oerjan> it's an inevitable effect of putting the program and tape separately and having search through the tape as it gets larger - every simulated instruction
07:16:04 <oerjan> s/speed/running time/
07:16:54 <b_jonas> or at least every few simulated instructions, I assume you could optimize some sequences like multiple pluses even in an interpreter, just to get constant factor practical optimizations
07:17:58 <b_jonas> but if you're specifically going just to have an eigenratio, which is like an asymptotic thing, then you could also copy the program between each two simulated tape cells
07:18:22 <b_jonas> because your program size is constant
07:18:40 <oerjan> huh
07:19:17 <oerjan> i move it instead, but maybe copying will work better
07:19:23 <oerjan> theoretically
07:20:09 <oerjan> then you would only need to do it when you extend the tape
07:20:42 <oerjan> and have cheaper movement otherwise
07:21:03 <b_jonas> it might not really help
07:22:19 <oerjan> i actually think it would. [[>]>] to move is a lot cheaper than shifting the entire program
07:22:56 <b_jonas> and you could optimize specifically for that sequence of instructions I guess
07:23:15 <oerjan> i don't think _that_ matters much.
07:23:21 <oerjan> then again, maybe.
07:23:29 <b_jonas> ok, then maybe at least optimize [>]
07:25:58 <oerjan> that's the kind of thing Clive tried to do but it doesn't help with the eigenratio unless the optimization lifts to the next layer
07:28:23 <oerjan> when putting the program code between the cells, a large part of the cost comes from the interpreter's size
07:29:16 <oerjan> oh well, this is for future improvement anyway. my interpreter has another design criterion that acts against such things:
07:29:52 <oerjan> it's supposed to be simple and predictable enough that the matrix for the eigenratio can be calculated explicitly
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07:35:00 <b_jonas> true
07:40:36 <oerjan> ok stripping comments didn't seem to help with it timing out
07:40:47 <oerjan> anyway, later
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11:16:35 <esolangs> [[Digital Miracle]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88584&oldid=88578 * Hakerh400 * (+75) 
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11:25:48 <int-e> @bot
11:25:49 <lambdabot> :)
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12:10:52 <esolangs> [[Seltzer]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88585&oldid=88572 * InfiniteDonuts * (-7) Rename language
12:19:44 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * TheProfessor *  New user account
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13:43:07 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88586&oldid=88566 * InfiniteDonuts * (+291) brainflop hello world
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14:05:06 <esolangs> [[Senpai]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88587&oldid=88557 * 4gboframram * (+46) /* Stack Operations */
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14:55:52 <esolangs> [[BracketsLang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88588&oldid=88243 * PoetLuchnik * (+393) add C-like description
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15:51:43 <esolangs> [[Headass]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88589&oldid=88571 * TheJonyMyster * (+34) documented last update of interpreter for golf reasons haha
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16:46:37 <esolangs> [[Weirdlang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88590&oldid=75149 * PixelatedStarfish * (-192) 
16:52:50 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88591&oldid=88541 * PixelatedStarfish * (+28) /* Unimplemented Languages */
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16:54:43 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88592&oldid=88591 * PixelatedStarfish * (+85) /* In Chronological Order */
16:55:38 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88593&oldid=88592 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Unimplemented Languages */
16:55:56 <esolangs> [[Pip]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88594&oldid=79714 * Dlosc * (+79) Updated links, went into more detail on inspirations, added tags
16:57:05 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88595&oldid=88593 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* Implemented Languages */
16:58:10 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88596&oldid=88595 * PixelatedStarfish * (+36) /* In Chronological Order */
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17:38:21 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88597&oldid=88561 * PixelatedStarfish * (+841) 
17:38:38 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88598&oldid=88597 * PixelatedStarfish * (+13) /* Program Examples */
17:39:36 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88599&oldid=88598 * PixelatedStarfish * (+10) /* Program Examples */
17:40:09 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88600&oldid=88599 * PixelatedStarfish * (+15) /* Program Examples */
17:40:47 <esolangs> [[Pip]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88601&oldid=88594 * Dlosc * (+32) Updated Elo rank
17:41:46 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88602&oldid=88600 * PixelatedStarfish * (+34) /* Hello World */
17:56:44 <esolangs> [[BracketsLang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88603&oldid=88588 * PoetLuchnik * (-2) "like" to "as"
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19:34:53 <fizzie> /usr/include/c++/10/cstdlib:75:15: fatal error: stdlib.h: No such file or directory
19:34:57 <fizzie> That's probably not a good sign.
19:40:42 <b_jonas> oops
19:41:39 <fizzie> It's from compile_commands.json generated by this third-party script that tries to extract build actions from a Bazel build for, well, for things that need a compile_commands.json, like clangd.
19:41:50 <fizzie> Not sure how it manages to do that with just adding extra include directories though.
19:43:23 <fizzie> It probably has something to do with the way <cstdlib> uses #include_next <stdlib.h> rather than #include <stdlib.h>.
19:43:43 <fizzie> That combined with some weirdness with the include path order. But it builds fine when Bazel's doing it.
19:49:46 <fizzie> Yeah, it seems to be from the `-isystem external/system/include` flag that gets added. I'm doing a sort of a nonstandard hack to make Bazel build using the system's headers, because I couldn't just be bothered to define all from-sources dependencies for GTK and everything it needs.
19:53:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: what compiler is it in first place?
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19:57:28 <fizzie> GCC. Well, or Clang for the clangd use. But those two behave the same as far as this goes. (I did have to make the script drop a `-fno-canonical-system-headers` flag that clang doesn't understand from the list though.)
19:57:41 <fizzie> In retrospect, I should've just built this with CMake like a normal person.
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20:57:14 <esolangs> [[Senpai]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88604&oldid=88587 * 4gboframram * (+45) /* External Resources */
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21:24:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * SashaCat *  New user account
21:29:06 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88605&oldid=88555 * SashaCat * (+192) added my intro
21:37:59 <esolangs> [[User:SashaCat]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88606 * SashaCat * (+152) Created page with "My biggest achievement is honestly making [https://git.tilde.town/sortai/LISP_in_templates this] pretty small and not very usable LISP in c++ templates."
21:43:24 <b_jonas> it seems there are now 9 quotes of me and 2 more quotes mentioning me in /hackenv/quotes . but I think you put shameful quotes there, not only funny ones, so I'm not sure if I should be proud of that.
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22:21:40 <shachaf> `smlist 530
22:21:41 <HackEso> smlist 530: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
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23:41:25 <asteriska> been looking at hanoi love recently. bound to web-based tech, does anybody know of a way to run original quickbasic code? lang is https://esolangs.org/wiki/Hanoi_Love
23:42:26 <asteriska> only interpreter i can find is the reference, in quickbasic, at http://kidsquid.com:443/files/hanoilove/hanoi.txt
23:43:28 <fizzie> Hmm, I wonder if that's *actually* QuickBasic, or if it would also run in QBasic.
23:44:13 <fizzie> Because QBasic you can just run at https://archive.org/details/msdos_qbasic_megapack -- although it'd probably involve typing the program.
23:44:15 <asteriska> fizzie: ive tried repl.it's qbasic interpreter; it does not work there, but i recall getting it working on a dos vm
23:46:00 <fizzie> Think we had a DOS VM bot on-channel too at one point, but the I/O was very very awkward.
23:46:32 <asteriska> that sounds wild
23:47:54 <asteriska> ive got shit for experience in programming, ive looked at c++ and dabbled in python, but realistically i know nothing haha
23:48:15 <asteriska> ive thought of making my own interpreter but id have no clue where to start
23:49:16 <asteriska> w
23:49:34 <asteriska> oh, no shift+enter support on kiwi, ig
23:49:57 <fizzie> Heh, `xdotool type ...` can write text to the archive.org web DOSBox QBasic interpreter. Probably won't help much there though.
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2021-10-07:

00:11:38 -!- asteriska has joined.
00:12:02 <asteriska> i died was there any developments
00:12:20 <asteriska> cant remember who it was i spoke to
00:15:53 <asteriska> wanted some help making a sane interpreter for hanoi love, or a way to run original quickbasic code in a browser
00:16:11 <asteriska> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Hanoi_Love is the link
00:17:17 <asteriska> any good base languages to start in? i see rust, cpp, java, and ruby fairly frequently used, along with javascript
00:17:47 <asteriska> realistically i havent really programmed before, want something to jump into and figure out, but also didnt want to doom myself
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00:26:22 <sknebel> if you've dabbled with python, that's totally viable to make a small interpreter like that too
00:30:56 <asteriska> true, but id like to hear your opinions as well. what would you use, and why
00:34:28 <asteriska> hanoi love is stack based, and pretty close to the idealogy of brainfuck
00:34:40 <asteriska> simplistic and a small number of commands
00:35:08 <asteriska> well, sort of
00:42:35 <zzo38> Much of the computer programming I do is written in C
00:44:50 <asteriska> anything that draws you to c specifically? how long did it take you to learn?
00:46:40 <zzo38> About learning it, I don't remember.
00:47:14 <zzo38> About using it, well, it is common and also many other programming languages don't do some things as well
00:47:33 <asteriska> fair
00:48:22 <asteriska> what all do you tend to use it on? id like to know general use cases, from a real person instead of a broad spectrum on some wikipedia entry
00:51:04 <zzo38> Well, I wrote many programs (including some are incomplete), including NNTP client, picture processing, game, etc.
00:51:27 <zzo38> Sometimes I also use PostScript, and sometimes other programming languages, but mainly C
00:51:47 <asteriska> any experience with ruby? ive heard good things about it
00:52:41 <zzo38> I have not used Ruby (except maybe once to modify an existing program, although I don't really remember)
00:53:37 <asteriska> ah, i see
00:54:29 <asteriska> any opinion of java?
00:55:12 <zzo38> I don't really like Java, although I had used it once to read a Microsoft Compound file, although now 7-Zip does that so I can just use 7-Zip instead
00:55:51 <asteriska> any specific reason? ive heard java was indesirable elsewhere, but i dont remember why and whatfor
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01:21:34 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88607&oldid=88569 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+319) /* Implementations */ added AutomataF
01:27:45 <esolangs> [[User:Dlosc]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88608&oldid=85384 * Dlosc * (-32) Changed Pip link to point to Esolangs page
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02:00:44 <sknebel> Python IMHO is a good first language to learn, unless you are specifically after low-level projects it's not suited for. lots of intro material, easy-ish to grok, tools and libraries for many different things.
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04:15:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Asteriska *  New user account
04:20:37 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88609&oldid=88605 * Asteriska * (+374) exist - asteriska
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04:29:17 <esolangs> [[User:Asteriska]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88610 * Asteriska * (+220) Created page with "'''Welcome!''' This is the user page for Asteriska ( That's me! Hi. :> ) I am currently venturing into the programming language Ruby, on a quest to make a modern interpreter f..."
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06:47:33 <b_jonas> fizzie: re DOS VM bot, yes, that was my termbot. I never let it on #esolangs proper, but it was in #esolangs-blah . but it can't really run QBASIC – in theory it can, but the console i/o doesn't work, because QBASIC direct accesses the keyboard and video, while my bot uses serial console, so you can only use QBASIC programs if they read and write to regular files
06:47:52 <b_jonas> or perhaps if you edit the program to read and write serial port
06:49:46 <b_jonas> I agree with Python being a good first language to learn programming with, but also in its current form you can't write one-liners on it, and as such it's a bit hard to teach on IRC and especially with bots. 
06:50:24 <b_jonas> as for Java, I don't know too much about it, you'll have to ask ais523 about how suitable it is in principle, and someone might be able to tell how much learning material there is available
06:50:54 <b_jonas> asteriska: it might help if you tell what kind of toy projects you want to try
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07:27:51 <ais523> asteriska (for when you get back): I've taught Java as a first language to students, there are good learning resources around and it's a good starting point if you're looking for a job in Java or C# (and might also help if you're planning to go into C++ eventually) 
07:28:20 <ais523> but, I don't think it's an ideal place to start with programming – it requires you to learn some concepts from Java-era object-oriented programming that won't be much use to you outside the three languages I listed
07:29:12 <ais523> and they're a) fairly hard to figure out relative to certain other programming concepts, although not terrible; and b) not actually a good way to think about programming
07:29:50 <ais523> I don't like Python, but it was invented as a teaching language and won't be horrible for that purpose; I'd recommend moving onto something else once you've got the basics figured out
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07:30:37 <ais523> Rust is kind-of a high-risk option: it really forces you to learn and get comfortable with a number of low-level programming concepts, so the learning curve is very steep, but if you do manage to learn it the knowledge will be helpful in other low-level languages
07:30:46 <ais523> I didn't really understand C++ until after I learned Rust
07:31:43 <ais523> but my recommendation is to a) work out what sort of programming paradigm you want to be programming with in future (e.g. the Java/C#ish languages are good for getting jobs at big companies with)
07:31:57 <ais523> and b) work out what sort of knowledge about programming you want to gain
07:32:00 <ais523> and then pick an appropriate language
07:32:32 <ais523> if you want to be working fairly difficult or low-level languages, for example, you should probably pick one to start with – it'll be harder to learn but you'll have to learn that information anyway
07:33:01 <ais523> I think I would recommend against starting with C or C++, though, because they don't give good feedback when you do something wrong and thus it's hard to learn what mistakes you're making
07:35:02 <ais523> actually, now I'm wondering about good options for general-purpose languages which will help you get the basics of modern-ish programming down
07:35:48 <ais523> maybe Lua? that seems to have all the features I'd want in a teaching language, and it's fairly small and simple, in addition to being easy to get started with and somewhat robust due to the situations where it's used
07:35:53 <ais523> although I'm not sure what the teaching materials are like
07:36:36 <ais523> that said, I've heard that Lua got worse since I last looked at it (although I heard this from a somewhat unreliable source so I'm not sure whether it's true)
07:45:06 <b_jonas> ais523: about when (what year) have you last thought Java as a first language?
07:46:17 <ais523> last taught? hmm, probably around 2014
07:46:44 <ais523> it's been changing rapidly since then, with lots of new features added, although last time I checked most Java-based companies were wary of using them
07:46:50 <ais523> but, programming doesn't change that much in small spans of time
07:47:02 <b_jonas> thanks
07:47:17 <b_jonas> and yes, that is a small timespan, I thought it might be more
07:47:55 <ais523> it feels like longer
07:48:22 <ais523> my most recent job was writing Java, though, so my Java skills are more recent than that
07:53:11 <b_jonas> I personally like lua from the implementation perspective, they have a solid interpreter and are one of the very few interpreters with a moving garbage collector that defines a documented C API that lets you refer to objects in the language. (the other is mzscheme or PLT-scheme or whatever they renamed it now). but I hate it from the language user's perspective. Mostly hate it because of the 1-based 
07:53:18 <b_jonas> indexes; but also because of the syntax: the implicit semicolon lets you make mistakes, and the clumsy syntax makes you express easy things with long keywords.
07:53:47 <b_jonas> so lua is decent for someone who wants to add a macro/modding language to their video game, but not for the people who write mods mostly in lua
07:54:27 <ais523> Lua doesn't have implicit semicolons (in the JavaScript sense) – the syntax is unambiguous
07:54:42 <ais523> like, you can shuffle around the whitespace and a program still has the same meaning
07:55:12 <ais523> I actually used to write code like «x = x + dx y = y + dy» until someone told me it was legal to put a semicolon there to make it easier to read
07:55:51 <Riviera> x ;= dx y;= dy
07:56:07 <ais523> I think the semicolons do have to go between statements if you use them
07:56:36 <ais523> anyway, I agree that Lua doesn't really scale to large programs, but that isn't a property you need in a teaching language
07:56:36 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, it's not the same as javascript where the newlines matter. but that and no semicolons exactly means you can make costly mistakes.
07:56:37 <Riviera> :;)
07:57:25 <ais523> for a language I'm working on I'm considering a compromise, in which the language would be ambiguous without semicolons or newlines, but you still need to place a semicolon or a newline between statements anyway
07:57:31 <ais523> * would be unambiguous
07:57:48 <ais523> maybe even with a backslash when you split a statement across multiple lines
07:58:08 <ais523> (and perhaps with an option to automatically fix files in which the whitespace has become mangled)
07:58:49 <b_jonas> ais523: is it an alternate syntax for a yacc extension?
07:58:53 <b_jonas> :-)
07:59:14 <ais523> b_jonas: actually no; I *am* working on one of those, but the language I was talking about a few lines ago is a different one
07:59:47 <ais523> or, not so much yacc extension
07:59:55 <b_jonas> ok. I hope it's also not an alternate syntax for Analogia :-)
08:00:13 <b_jonas> (the "x = x + dx" above reminded me of that)
08:00:17 <ais523> I've been going through about 4 or 5 attempts at writing a good input language for parser generators recently
08:01:23 <ais523> because I've become fed up with the existing parser generators, it's clearly possible to do better, yet people have mostly either a) dropped the idea entirely or b) moved onto combinator-based parsing which is a little nicer for the programmer but can produce very inefficient parsers
08:02:38 <ais523> parser generators seem to be split into three groups nowadays: a) generalised parsers that handle any grammer, even ambiguous ones; b) LR-alikes where you need a grammar that the parser-generator can prove unambiguous; and c) PEG-based parsers, which use an input format in which all grammars are inherently unambiguous but often don't do what you meant them to
08:02:47 <ais523> s/grammer/grammar/
08:03:48 <ais523> group a) is sort of the parser-generator equivalent of a scripting language; the language doesn't give you much help in debugging because anything is expected, but if you do write the program correctly you can write it very quickly, but the runtime performance is often bad
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08:04:21 <ais523> (most of these generators are O(n) best case and O(n³) or O(n⁴) worst case, and aim to hit the best case as often as possible but don't give you much guidance in doing that)
08:05:12 <ais523> and group c) is universally O(n) worst case but often with a terrible constant factor, and *also* doesn't give you much help in writing correct programs because PEG is a language that makes subtle errors really easy to make (and basically only exists because it's guaranteed to be unambiguous and O(n)-parseable)
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08:05:37 <nakilon> did you try ragel? I see it often recently
08:05:58 <ais523> group b) is my favourite but it's been mostly abandoned at this point, so I was hoping to make something modern and widely usable that's more powerful than LR(1) and just as efficient
08:06:37 <ais523> nakilon: that appears to be a lexer, rather than a parser?
08:06:43 <nakilon> idk
08:07:41 <ais523> good lexers aren't as hard to find as good parsers because it's a fundamentally easier problem, there aren't tradeoffs to make between efficiency and generality
08:08:24 <ais523> although, what I've really been focusing on is scannerless parsers that don't need a separate lexer
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08:09:13 <ais523> I proved that LR(*) can be evaluated in O(n) time (i.e. LR but with regular-expression lookahead), and that's sufficient to write a scannerless LR parser, although I'm leaning towards a different algorithm
08:09:59 <ais523> because my proof involves first running a state machine backwards across the input and recording the history of states, which is O(n) but likely to be quite slow in practice, especially if the state machine is very large
08:11:58 <ais523> if anyone's interested, here's where I've got to so far: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/burlGaQaD3.html
08:12:30 <ais523> the automaton is provably O(n), and capable of simulating the combined effect a lexer followed by an LR(k) parser for any k
08:12:36 <ais523> but I haven't worked out how to calculate the states for the automaton yet
08:34:29 <nakilon> support says I'm being billed for an instance that utilizes >100% CPU core 24/7
08:34:38 <nakilon> but I only have one and it's at 20%
08:34:44 <nakilon> am I going crazy
08:38:06 <nakilon> will be funny if that's that glitched Chromium OS that is shown as disabled in my interface but is still running because of that lack of RAM
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09:08:23 <wib_jonas> "combinator-based parsing [...] can produce very inefficient parsers" => that, but I'm more worried that it can cause ambiguous grammars without anyone noticing, and then hard to debug problems when it parses an ambiguous input in the other of two possibilities 
09:10:22 <wib_jonas> ais523: "LR(*) can be evaluated in O(n) time" => do you mean with the constant factor in the O independent of the lookahead length of the LR?
09:10:35 <wib_jonas> wait, "LR but with regular expression lookahead"
09:10:41 <wib_jonas> I didn't look ahead reading your statement apparently
09:12:14 <wib_jonas> as for the previous problem of parsers, LR(1) is a good start, but I think it can help a lot if you have extensions over the BNF-like grammar. yacc already provides one very useful one, for operators with precedence, but I was kind of thinking of other potential extensions.
09:13:40 <wib_jonas> by which I mean extensions for how to specify the grammar, the one that you'll then generate an LR(1) parser for
09:14:05 <wib_jonas> (or an optimized LR(1) parser)
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09:16:37 <wib_jonas> I was wondering on an extension for when some rules have an optional terminator token. So in a rule, if the last symbol is a terminal, you could mark it as optional, claiming that this may cause LR(1) ambiguities, which you want to resolve against applying that rule without the terminator token, but importantly, you ask the parser generator to
09:16:37 <wib_jonas> prove you that if all those optional terminators were mandatory, then the grammar has no LR(1) ambiguities.
09:17:44 <wib_jonas> It seems like this could be done with a preprocessor that runs yacc twice, once with all the terminators mandatory to prove that the grammar has no ambiguities as yacc understands it (or at least only has a few ambiguities that you as the grammar writer know of), then generate the parser with those tokens optional.
09:18:00 <wib_jonas> but I'm not entirely sure if this makes sense.
09:19:52 <wib_jonas> plus I'm not sure if just making single terminals optional is enough, because rust has those weird syntax cases where it tries to find out which left brace after the "if" keyword ends the condition and starts the body, and you might want something to prove eg. that if you parenthisize the condition then it's unambiguous
09:20:23 <wib_jonas> to be clear I mean unambiguous as yacc understands it, not just theoretically unambiguous as a grammar, though in practice the difference rarely comes up.
09:22:29 <wib_jonas> "LR but with regular-expression lookahead [... is] sufficient to write a scannerless LR parser" => *sigh* not always. some languages like C++ allow custom multi-byte terminators for a string, where the lexer has to scan for the matching terminator sequence.
09:22:51 <wib_jonas> but I also agree that you usually want a separate lexer, even just for clarity
09:23:47 <wib_jonas> and then there's of course the classical C problem where you have to know if an identifier is a typename or not to parse
09:24:50 <wib_jonas> although I kind of wonder if that can be worked around by parsing with some modified yacc grammar despite that, then later fixing up the cases that involve a typename vs other identifier ambiguity, like (a)(b) and (a)*(b)
09:25:27 <wib_jonas> I'm not sure if C allows that, and if it does, does C++ too?
09:26:01 <wib_jonas> there are some weird cases with declarations and function type names and whatnot
09:26:13 <ais523> <wib_jonas> "combinator-based parsing [...] can produce very inefficient parsers" => that, but I'm more worried that it can cause ambiguous grammars without anyone noticing, and then hard to debug problems when it parses an ambiguous input in the other of two possibilities ← I agree with this
09:26:56 <ais523> in terms of precedence, I think it's an important feature to have but don't like the way that yacc does it – precedence can be implemented as sugar but yacc lets it affect the grammar directly, which can be confusing
09:27:05 <ais523> err, affect the algorithm, rather than the grammar
09:28:07 <ais523> re: C++'s custom multi-byte terminators, I don't consider those to have an effect on scannerless parsing because they can't be lexed with a normal lexer
09:28:50 <ais523> so it has no impact on the difference between scannerless parsing and a parser+separate lexer (although, scannerless parsers should in theory be better at them, as they can do CFG-based lexing rather than regular expressions)
09:29:06 <wib_jonas> as much as I like rust's semantics, I think their syntax is terrible, though mostly not because of the parser ambiguities, but because of the terrible identifier scoping rules, and because of the ambiguity between constructors vs bindings in patterns. that latter would be really easy to improve if they just allowed empty parenthesis after any
09:29:06 <wib_jonas> 0-argument constructor, because that let you disambiguate both ways. but there's hope, because they started to allow multiple incompatible syntaxes now in the same compiler, so they can improve some of the syntax later.
09:29:57 <wib_jonas> ais523: that depends on what you mean by "normal lexer". if you mean a regular expression lexer, then sure. but we're not limited to that when using yacc.
09:30:00 <ais523> I agree that constructor vs. binding is a bad ambiguity (interestingly, you could mostly fix it using Rust's normal conventions for identifier case, but it only enforces them with warnings rather than at the syntax level)
09:30:10 <ais523> wib_jonas: right, regular expression lexer
09:30:44 <ais523> I don't know what you mean by the identifier scoping rules, though: do you have an example of what it does wrong there?
09:30:49 <wib_jonas> ais523: rust already enforces identifier case as warnings, but there are also lots of wrong-cased type names in the standard library, so that's not enough. 
09:31:27 <ais523> wait, why?
09:32:06 <wib_jonas> ais523: for the identifier scoping rules ... let me try to get an example, I think it was something about multiple identifiers of different kinds coming from different scopes, where the one closer to your scope should really shadow the other, but instead rust disambiguates based on which kind is valid when using it
09:32:17 <wib_jonas> ais523: mostly to match the name of C types
09:32:23 <ais523> oh, u8 and friends
09:32:45 <wib_jonas> no, I can take `u8`, I actually thought that was a keyword
09:32:46 <ais523> I guess i've internalised "u8" as being a keyword, and thus being able to use any case it wants, but it probably isn't
09:32:56 <wib_jonas> this isn't about u8
09:33:07 <ais523> c_void and friends?
09:33:34 <ais523> actually, that's really weird, why wouldn't it be called C_void?
09:33:45 <ais523> the "c_" at the start isn't part of the name in C
09:33:54 <wib_jonas> those, and even worse ones in the libc crate IIRC
09:34:22 <wib_jonas> you can say that c_void is fine because the set of builtin types in C and C++ is growing slowly
09:34:36 <wib_jonas> (it's not closed; we have wchar16_t and wchar32_t as builtins now I think)
09:34:42 <wib_jonas> (and nullptr_t and more)
09:35:00 <ais523> oddly, the _t suffix is reserved by POSIX but not, IIRC, by C itself
09:35:03 <wib_jonas> but I think the libc crates wraps types that are identifiers
09:35:18 <ais523> at least libc isn't technically part of Rust itself
09:35:31 <wib_jonas> yes, it's not
09:39:21 <ais523> u8 is not a keyword, I just looked it up
09:39:53 <wib_jonas> I know
09:39:59 <wib_jonas> I thoguht it was a keyword too
09:40:08 <wib_jonas> but later found it isn't
09:40:14 <ais523> I wasn't sure until I checked
09:40:40 <ais523> one thing that's been paining me with this parser generator work is trying to avoid clashes, in generated code, with keywords in the target language
09:40:48 <ais523> namespacing can solve most problems, but not that one
09:41:12 <ais523> my current hacky workaround is to append an underscore to identifiers, on the basis that most languages don't have keywords that end with an underscore but don't start with one
09:46:18 <wib_jonas> ais523: here's an example on what I don't like about the scoping rules: https://play.rust-lang.org/?version=stable&mode=debug&edition=2018&gist=45fe7999658232760b1fd3ce7c578cf4
09:46:39 <nakilon> `factor 992654469589
09:46:40 <HackEso> 992654469589: 993319 999331
09:47:04 <wib_jonas> note that if you define the outer struct K as a parenthisized struct rather than a braced struct, this no longer works, so it's not like structs and consts are in an entirely different namespace and you can always tell from usage which one to use
09:47:25 * ais523 looks
09:47:56 <nakilon> `factor 41758540882408627201
09:47:57 <HackEso> 41758540882408627201: 479001599 87178291199
09:48:15 <ais523> wib_jonas: I think that behaviour was probably borrowed from C? shadowing is separated into different lexical categories
09:48:42 <ais523> but the "this isn't an entirely different namespace" is interesting
09:49:38 <wib_jonas> for posterity in the channel logs, pointed example was: #[derive(Debug)] struct K{ x: i32, } fn main() { const K: i32 = 20; println!("k = {:?}", K); let b: K = K{x: 13}; println!("b = {:?}", b); }
09:49:42 <nakilon> `factor 3858055874062761829426214599
09:49:43 <HackEso> 3858055874062761829426214599: 5600748293801 688846502588399
09:50:14 <wib_jonas> ais523: yes, but in C you don't get things like parenthisized structs that apparently shadow multiple lexical kinds
09:50:30 <wib_jonas> and I'm not sure C is a good example in first place
09:50:45 <ais523> I can't find the shadowing rules in the reference
09:50:48 <wib_jonas> Haskell might be better, that has three entirely separate lexical categories clear from the syntax
09:50:48 <nakilon> `factor 137438953490360560825792535807496799
09:51:00 <wib_jonas> or maybe just two
09:51:01 <nakilon> oh finally
09:51:04 <HackEso> 137438953490360560825792535807496799: 59604644783353249 2305843009213693951
09:51:07 <nakilon> damn
09:51:52 <ais523> nakilon: if you're just looking for primality or not, I recommend a primality tester rather than a factoriser, the numbers are starting to reach the range where factorisation is slow
09:51:56 <ais523> but I'm not sure that HackEgo has one
09:52:49 <nakilon> I'm searching for its limits
09:52:57 <wib_jonas> let me try to see if there's an example that involves mod versus trait
09:53:03 <nakilon> `factor 928510396424831231988564183404743747335769
09:53:04 <HackEso> factor: ‘928510396424831231988564183404743747335769’ is too large
09:53:09 <nakilon> yeeeeee
09:53:13 <ais523> `` perl -Mntheory -E 'say is_prime("137438953490360560825792535807496799")'
09:53:14 <HackEso> Can't locate ntheory.pm in @INC (you may need to install the ntheory module) (@INC contains: /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/perl/5.28.1 /usr/local/share/perl/5.28.1 /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/perl5/5.28 /usr/share/perl5 /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/perl/5.28 /usr/share/perl/5.28 /usr/local/lib/site_perl /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/perl-base). \ BEGIN failed--compilation aborted.
09:53:53 <nakilon> \wa factorize 928510396424831231988564183404743747335769
09:53:55 <velik>  Result: 68480406462161287469×13558774610046711780701 (2 distinct prime factors)
09:55:17 <ais523> needs to be -Mntheory=is_prime, it seems (based on my local testing)
09:57:51 <wib_jonas> ais523: C++ has both a function and a variable named clog in the std namespace, and I still don't understand how it does that
09:58:24 <ais523> complex logarithm and standard logging handle, respectively?
09:58:33 <wib_jonas> yes
09:58:41 <wib_jonas> but maybe the function is never in std, it's only in the global namespace?
09:58:44 <ais523> I wonder if the function is actually a macro
09:58:46 <wib_jonas> I really don't understand
09:58:48 <nakilon> in ruby you have both and interpreter checks if you are appending the "()" to identifier to resolve the ambiguity
09:59:21 <ais523> Perl has an ambiguity between function calls and string literals, which is a fun one
09:59:30 <wib_jonas> I think maybe the function is never in the std namespace
09:59:39 <ais523> e.g. $x{shift} versus $x{+shift}
10:00:05 <ais523> (works even under use strict)
10:02:32 <wib_jonas> on the other hand, I have to appreciate the rustc compiler, which is really well made and gives high quality warning/error messages that usually point you to the right issue
10:02:40 <wib_jonas> they clearly put a lot of work in that
10:03:02 <wib_jonas> well yes, perl has weird syntax
10:03:19 <nakilon> ``` ruby -rprime -e "p Prime.prime? 992654469589"
10:03:21 <HackEso> false
10:03:25 <ais523> wib_jonas: in your Rust scoping example, you can actually give basically everything the same name: https://play.rust-lang.org/?version=stable&mode=debug&edition=2018&gist=45fe7999658232760b1fd3ce7c578cf4
10:03:29 <nakilon> ``` ruby -rprime -e "p Prime.prime? 41758540882408627201"
10:03:39 <wib_jonas> ruby too but I gave up trying to understand that when they changed the syntax significantly between ruby 1.8 and 2.0
10:03:58 <ais523> or, hmm, that somehow reverted to your version?
10:04:05 <HackEso> No output.
10:04:12 <wib_jonas> ais523: that looks like my version, yes. you have to click on the share button.
10:04:23 <ais523> I did
10:04:33 <ais523> but I basically just changed the struct field to K too, and used the const to initialise it
10:04:44 <ais523> so it becomes let b: K = K{K: K};
10:05:33 <wib_jonas> ais523: yes, but struct fields are clearly scoped, sort of like in C, so that doesn't matter as much
10:05:46 <ais523> right, and scoped to the struct they belong to
10:05:53 <wib_jonas> ais523: also I think you can just write K{K} or K{...} instead of K{K: K} but I'm not certain
10:05:54 <nakilon> ``` ruby -rprime -e "p Prime.methods.grep /div/"
10:05:55 <HackEso> ​[:int_from_prime_division, :prime_division]
10:06:12 <nakilon> ``` ruby -rprime -e "p Prime.prime_division 992654469589"
10:06:14 <HackEso> ​[[993319, 1], [999331, 1]]
10:07:10 <ais523> wib_jonas: you can write the former, at leats
10:07:14 <ais523> * least
10:07:37 <ais523> neither .. nor ... works though
10:08:09 <ais523> anyway, when I define a tuple struct and brace struct with the same name, I get "note: `K` must be defined only once in the type namespace of this module"
10:08:31 <ais523> which seems to be a big indication as to what Rust is doing
10:08:37 <nakilon> `factor -12
10:08:38 <HackEso> factor: invalid option -- '1' \ Try 'factor --help' for more information.
10:08:40 <ais523> (that's in addition to an error)
10:08:42 <nakilon> haha
10:08:45 <ais523> `factor -- -12
10:08:46 <HackEso> factor: unrecognized option '-- -12' \ Try 'factor --help' for more information.
10:08:51 <ais523> `` factor -- -12
10:08:52 <HackEso> factor: ‘-12’ is not a valid positive integer
10:08:58 <ais523> that looks better
10:09:04 <nakilon> ``` ruby -rprime -e "p Prime.prime_division -12"
10:09:06 <HackEso> ​[[-1, 1], [2, 2], [3, 1]]
10:09:23 <ais523> …also, it's kind-of amazing that -- syntax works there, there's no reason for factor to be able to support it; probably the consequence of some library for command-line options parsing
10:09:37 <wib_jonas> ``` factor --help
10:09:38 <HackEso> Usage: factor [NUMBER]... \   or:  factor OPTION \ Print the prime factors of each specified integer NUMBER.  If none \ are specified on the command line, read them from standard input. \  \       --help     display this help and exit \       --version  output version information and exit \  \ GNU coreutils online help: <https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/> \ Report factor translation bugs to <https://translationproject.org/team/> \ Full documentation 
10:10:14 <wib_jonas> ais523: it's in GNU coreutils, so it must support --help and --version , so it uses GNU getopt_long
10:10:15 <nakilon> \wa factorize -12
10:10:17 <velik>  Result: -2^2×3 (3 prime factors, 2 distinct)
10:10:30 <ais523> wib_jonas: I'm thinking about the semantics of non-hyphen-prefixed arguments
10:10:34 <ais523> the -- convention only makes sense when those are filenames
10:10:46 <ais523> or, hmm, maybe in cases like yes?
10:10:53 <ais523> `` yes -- -yes | head
10:10:54 <HackEso> ​-yes \ -yes \ -yes \ -yes \ -yes \ -yes \ -yes \ -yes \ -yes \ -yes
10:11:01 <ais523> right, so echo-alikes too
10:11:06 <ais523> `` echo -- -test
10:11:06 <wib_jonas> but it doesn't hurt to just support the -- syntax everywhere
10:11:07 <HackEso> ​-- -test
10:11:14 <ais523> (this is what I expected echo to do)
10:11:17 <ais523> `` echo --help
10:11:18 <HackEso> ​--help
10:11:22 <ais523> `` /usr/bin/echo --help
10:11:23 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 5: /usr/bin/echo: No such file or directory
10:11:26 <wib_jonas> at least everywhere that takes options starting with a hyphen
10:11:29 <ais523> `` /bin/echo --help
10:11:30 <HackEso> Usage: /bin/echo [SHORT-OPTION]... [STRING]... \   or:  /bin/echo LONG-OPTION \ Echo the STRING(s) to standard output. \  \   -n             do not output the trailing newline \   -e             enable interpretation of backslash escapes \   -E             disable interpretation of backslash escapes (default) \       --help     display this help and exit \       --version  output version information and exit \  \ If -e is in effect, the following sequences
10:11:35 <ais523> ooh
10:11:42 <ais523> `` /bin/echo -- --help
10:11:43 <HackEso> ​-- --help
10:11:52 <wib_jonas> hehe
10:11:57 <ais523> `` /bin/echo -E --help
10:11:59 <HackEso> ​--help
10:12:10 <ais523> `` /bin/echo -E -E
10:12:11 <HackEso> No output.
10:12:37 <ais523> this isn't doing a great job as an echo command
10:13:06 <wib_jonas> also if REGEX may start with a minus, then it's (grep -e REGEX) but (grep -eREGEX) or (grep -- REGEX) also work, and so do workarounds like (grep -E "(REGEX)") if it's an egrep
10:13:17 <ais523> I don't think there's any sequence of options that's guaranteed to echo the remaining arguments literally?
10:13:45 <wib_jonas> no idea about /bin/echo , I don't really use that. you'd have to look it up in the info documentation how that works.
10:14:08 <ais523> `` POSIXLY_CORRECT=1 /bin/echo --help
10:14:09 <HackEso> ​--help
10:14:23 <wib_jonas> it's in coreutils too, so the syntax is probably documented
10:14:39 <ais523> I know, I'm looking at the info page right now
10:14:40 <nakilon> so there are three ways to factorize numbers here: 1) factor can't negative 2) ruby is slower and harder to invoke 3) velik
10:14:57 <ais523> nakilon: if you support negative inputs than the output is ambiguous
10:15:14 <wib_jonas> ais523: I think (/bin/printf %s "$yourstring") should work
10:15:18 <ais523> is the factorisation of 6 (-2, 3) or (-3, 2)? (or (-1, 2, 3)?)
10:15:32 <ais523> wib_jonas: yes, that's the workaround suggested on echo's info page
10:15:40 <wib_jonas> oh great
10:15:47 <nakilon> it's ambigous in \wa I would say
10:15:51 <ais523> although the format string should actually be '%s\n'
10:15:58 <nakilon> but [-1, 1] is pretty much straight forward
10:16:09 <nakilon> though -1 isn't a prime
10:16:49 <wib_jonas> newline, right
10:17:36 <nakilon> \wp prime number
10:17:39 <velik>  prime number -- positive integer with exactly two divisors, 1 and itself https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_number
10:17:52 <ais523> oh, man -s1posix echo suggests using printf too, and says that the only reason echo hasn't "been made obsolescent" is that it's widely used
10:18:26 <ais523> (the spec allows -n to have implementation-defined behaviour)
10:18:45 <ais523> printf "%s\n" isn't a drop-in replacement for echo though
10:18:51 <ais523> `` echo 1 2 3
10:18:52 <HackEso> 1 2 3
10:18:57 <ais523> `` printf "%s\n" 1 2 3
10:18:58 <HackEso> 1 \ 2 \ 3
10:19:28 <wib_jonas> and then of course there's all the workarounds like (perl -e'print"@ARGV\n"' "$yourstring") , the links of which I used on Windows
10:20:15 <Riviera> it being a drop-in replacement would be silly though, 'cause that would have to have all the same undefined behaviours :)
10:21:08 <ais523> Riviera: well, the usual intended behaviour of `echo` is "join the arguments with spaces, then print them followed by a newline"
10:21:09 <Riviera> `` printf -----%s---- hehe
10:21:10 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 5: printf: --: invalid option \ printf: usage: printf [-v var] format [arguments]
10:21:13 <Riviera> xD
10:21:38 <ais523> and I'm not sure there's actually a standard POSIX command that does that exactly, not even echo or printf with options
10:21:51 <ais523> (as wib_jonas posted above, perl can do it)
10:22:00 <Riviera> la () ( IFS=' '; printf '%s\n' "$*" )
10:22:01 <ais523> actually no
10:22:05 <Riviera> i guess, but meh
10:22:08 <wib_jonas> ais523: maybe a small shell script could do it?
10:22:13 <ais523> `` perl -e'print"@ARGV\n"' -45
10:22:14 <HackEso> Unrecognized switch: -45  (-h will show valid options).
10:22:18 <Riviera> not quite sure what the problem is, you can't use the same syntax, but there's no actual problem
10:22:18 <wib_jonas> yeah, what Riviera says
10:22:20 <ais523> `` perl -e'print"@ARGV\n"' -- -45
10:22:21 <HackEso> ​-45
10:22:31 <ais523> I think Perl will treat that -- consistently though
10:22:36 <wib_jonas> huh
10:22:56 <wib_jonas> I thought perl treated -e as the last option. maybe not, because it accepts two -e strings?
10:23:00 <Riviera> (i'm not sure if function definitions with ( .. ) is posix, but then just nest () within {})
10:23:05 <wib_jonas> ``` perl -e'print' -e' "hello"'
10:23:06 <HackEso> hello
10:23:09 <wib_jonas> yeah :(
10:23:13 <wib_jonas> that's worse
10:23:46 <ais523> anyway, this is starting to convince me that -- makes sense with things other than filenames
10:27:34 <ais523> `` /bin/true --version
10:27:35 <HackEso> true (GNU coreutils) 8.30 \ Copyright (C) 2018 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <https://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>. \ This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it. \ There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. \  \ Written by Jim Meyering.
10:27:37 <ais523> `` /bin/true -- --version
10:27:38 <HackEso> No output.
10:27:42 <ais523> there's another potential use
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10:43:20 <wib_jonas> while we're at silly syntax. in HTML in the srcset attribute of an img element, given https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/images.html#srcset-attribute , how are you supposed to quote an URL if its last character is comma?
10:43:56 <esolangs> [[BracketsLang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88611&oldid=88603 * PoetLuchnik * (+13) block to subcode in c-like
10:45:32 <ais523> wib_jonas: replace the comma with %2C?
10:46:12 <wib_jonas> is that guaranteed to never change the semantics actually?
10:48:37 <wib_jonas> maybe you could append a ? if there's no query segment, or a & if there is a query segment. that's not perfect either, but might work better.
10:49:23 <fizzie> "URIs that differ in the replacement of an unreserved character with its corresponding percent-encoded US-ASCII octet are equivalent: they identify the same resource." (RFC 3986)
10:50:19 <wib_jonas> fizzie: is comma one of those unreserved characters? 
10:50:21 <ais523> oh wow, I think that might answer a question I've been stuck on for a while
10:50:47 <ais523> wib_jonas: appending an & isn't safe, there are multiple possible encodings for query segments and & can be semantically important with some of them
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10:51:15 <ais523> (although it's a no-op in the most common encoding, that isn't the only one in use and isn't enforced by the standard)
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10:51:43 <fizzie> Actually, the comma is not in the set of entirely unreserved characters; that's only ALPHA / DIGIT / "-" / "." / "_" / "~".
10:51:56 <wib_jonas> ais523: yes, I know, plus I'm not even sure if all schemes of URI allow a query part when there's no question mark
10:52:08 <fizzie> Comma is in the "sub-delims" set, which means it depends on where the comma is, I guess.
10:53:56 <wib_jonas> who-ever invented that syntax for srcset should get a swift kick in the hindside. they could have chosen the vertical bar as a separator or something
10:54:02 <nakilon> \wa random 20 digit prime number
10:54:04 <velik>  Result: 92847417466922372783 | Scientific notation: 9.2847417466922372783 × 10^19 | Properties: 92847417466922372783 is an odd number., 92847417466922372783 is a number that cannot be written as a sum of 3 squares. | Number length: 20 decimal digits | Number names: 92 quintillion ..., 92 billion billion ... | Prime factorization: 92847417466922372783 is a prime number. | Comparison: ≈ 2.1 × the number of arrangements of a 3×3×3 Rubik's cube (...
10:54:11 <wib_jonas> no awit, vertical bar might not be good
10:54:27 <wib_jonas> hmm
10:55:07 <nakilon> gotta make a shorter variant of the \wa, maybe \was
10:55:12 <fizzie> I guess what the RFC means is, it's possible a specific URI scheme uses ',' as a component delimiter, which means it cannot necessarily be always percent-encoded without changing the meaning.
10:55:13 <nakilon> though it sounds cryptic
11:02:10 <wib_jonas> I wonder if that could occur in a data: URI, with an escaped comma occuring in one of the key-value parameters after the media type
11:02:58 <wib_jonas> although that wouldn't matter for the srcset thing, where you only escape the *last* comma, since that last comma must be part of the data proper
11:04:21 <ais523> data:text/html,a%2C appears to be an HTML document consisting of "a,"
11:04:48 <ais523> whereas data:text/html%2Ca%2C is a bad URL
11:05:00 <ais523> so this does appear to be an inescapable comma
11:05:15 <fizzie> Actually, I'm not 100% sure whether that spec allows for an unescaped comma at all.
11:05:17 <fizzie> The description is: "one or more image candidate strings, each separated from the next by a U+002C COMMA character (,). If an image candidate string contains no descriptors and no ASCII whitespace after the URL, the following image candidate string, if there is one, must begin with one or more ASCII whitespace."
11:05:20 <fizzie> Which you *could* read to mean "if there's a comma not surrounded by whitespace, it's not actually separating two strings", but you could *also* read as saying "a comma *always* separates two strings, and it's just invalid to not have whitespace there".
11:05:57 <wib_jonas> fizzie: huh
11:06:05 <wib_jonas> that's even more scary
11:06:22 <ais523> it makes more sense to check the parsing algorithm rather than the description of valid syntax for this sort of thing, IMO
11:06:57 <fizzie> Wouldn't that only work if there is a canonical algorithm? 
11:07:21 <fizzie> Oh, there is one, I see.
11:08:19 <fizzie> Yeah, an embedded comma with no surrounding whitespace will be just collected as part of the URL.
11:09:18 <wib_jonas> fizzie: how about a comma before (the separator comma after an URL)?
11:09:19 <ais523> there's always a canonical algorithm in HTML5
11:09:40 <ais523> I found the spec really creepy the first time I read it
11:09:45 <wib_jonas> although that won't help
11:09:50 <ais523> it's basically an entire web browser implementation in pseudocode
11:10:10 <wib_jonas> because you usually want a scale thingy between the URL and the separator comma
11:10:36 <wib_jonas> ais523: yep. 
11:10:45 <wib_jonas> the HTML5 spec is like that
11:10:54 <wib_jonas> and it has an entire javascript API in it too
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11:11:36 <wib_jonas> as in an api from (the javascript running client-side in the webpage) to the webpage content
11:12:20 <nakilon> \was pi
11:12:24 <velik>  Decimal approximation: 3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923...
11:14:31 <nakilon> ``` ruby -e "p Math::PI"
11:14:32 <HackEso> 3.141592653589793
11:14:57 <ais523> somewhat difficult Prolog question: is there a way to write a predicate for which, e.g., p(f(A,B,C), [A,C], X, Y) on input becomes p(f(A,B,C), [A,C], f(D,B,E), [D,E]) on output?
11:15:09 <ais523> i.e. I want something like copy_term, but it only copies some of the variables, not all of them
11:15:23 <ais523> I was hoping it would be a builtin, but I can't find one
11:15:42 <ais523> so either there's some way to abuse a degenerate case of bagof, or else I'll have to write it manually
11:18:35 <wib_jonas> ais523: didn't one of the prolog implementations have a builtin for either that, or for when you specify the compliment set of variables?
11:19:18 <ais523> I guess I'll have to write it manually, by iterating over it to find the free variables, then doing copy_term(f(A,B,C)-[A,C]-[B], f(D,B,E)-[A,C]-[B])) as the final step (with the [B]s unified earlier)
11:19:38 <ais523> err, copy_term(f(A,B,C)-[A,C]-[B], f(D,B,E)-[D,E]-[B])), obviously
11:20:01 <ais523> wib_jonas: bag_of is close but doesn't seem to be close enough
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11:23:05 <wib_jonas> hmm, I don't find such a builtin at a quick look
11:23:49 <wib_jonas> I think I looked for something like that when I made olvashato, and perhaps even before, to implement functions with upvalues, but then just decided I'll use copy_term and say that the upvalues must be ground terms
11:24:35 <wib_jonas> not quite ground terms, but terms with no free variables -- bound variables that are used only inside them, such as in referenced functions with upvalues, those are fine, they're renamed harmlessly by copy_term
11:25:03 <ais523> right
11:26:06 <wib_jonas> can you do something like temporarily define a perdicate with asserta, with variables that you don't want to copy mentioned in the head?
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11:27:21 <ais523> the iterate-to-find-free-variables approach is almost working
11:27:40 <ais523> the main difficulty is just that call/9 doesn't exist, so I'm needing to create temporary structures to hold some of my arguments
11:28:34 <ais523> (I'm already iterating over the structure anyway so I threw in some free variable extraction while I was there)
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11:33:09 <nakilon> \wa e
11:33:13 <velik>  Upper case: E (U+0045) | Name: Latin small letter E | Phonetic alphabet: Echo (ECK·OH) | "e" on a US English keyboard:  (left middle finger) | Similar characters: ℮ (estimated symbol) | ℯ (script small E)
11:33:19 <nakilon> \was e constant
11:33:22 <velik>  Decimal approximation: 2.7182818284590452353602874713526624977572470936999595749669676277...
11:33:27 <nakilon> \wa ꙮ
11:33:28 <velik>  Name: Cyrillic letter multiocular O | Unicode block: Cyrillic Extended-B (42560 through 42655) (96 characters)
11:34:45 <nakilon> weird that it said it's upper case e, anyway
11:36:33 <nakilon> velik ꙮ
11:36:57 <nakilon> scared
11:37:31 <fizzie> It doesn't really say it's uppercase, it tells you what the uppercase equivalent is.
11:37:58 <fizzie> The wobsite goes "Input interpretation: e (character)", "Name: Latin small letter E", "Upper case: E", "Similar characters: ..." and so on.
11:38:11 <nakilon> oh indeed
11:40:47 <nakilon> \was random 100 digit prime number
11:40:49 <velik>  Decimal approximation: 6.97799599080530032728805445398475807079187919778470343445802... × 10^99 | Result: 6977995990805300327288054453984758070791879197784703434458023173697519646764322440809193108195240417
11:42:37 <nakilon> \was factorize random 100 digit prime number 
11:42:46 <velik> thread error
11:43:25 <nakilon> (parser fault)
11:45:48 <nakilon> ah, nope, it's because of the trailing space in my message, gotta fix
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13:10:40 <nakilon> twitch is now opensource /s
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14:34:35 <int-e> yeah, the terrible kind where you can see the code but not touch it with a ten foot pole
14:35:19 <int-e> (except for the 80% (I suppose) that are free software)
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16:07:17 <esolangs> [[FlipJump]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88612&oldid=88579 * Tomhe * (+38) /* The Standard Library */
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16:22:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:Hanoi Love]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88613 * Asteriska * (+227) Created page with "I am working on an interpreter for this language in ruby. Any news on it will go here. ~~~~"
16:31:43 <esolangs> [[OISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88614&oldid=87268 * Tomhe * (+86) more info on FlipJump
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17:24:46 <b_jonas> ais523: probably doesn't help you but just in case: there's a built-in predicate term_variables/2 that gives you a list of all variables in a term.
17:28:51 <nakilon> Google keeps disappointing me
17:30:17 <nakilon> dude says I have exceeded the 720 hours month CPU quota
17:30:40 <nakilon> I show him CPU graph in their GUI that shows I'm <25% for at least a months already
17:30:48 <nakilon> and guess what
17:31:14 <nakilon> he says "yes, 720 = 24 * 30 but some months have more days"
17:31:37 <nakilon> *more than 30
17:32:10 <nakilon> so I've already paid for two 120 days long months in some alternative reality
17:43:24 <int-e> > 360/365.2422 -- uptime
17:43:26 <lambdabot>  0.9856473320990837
17:43:34 <int-e> hmm, not true actually
17:43:56 <int-e> > 358.2422/365.2422 -- uptime, corrected for february always having fewer than 30 days
17:43:57 <lambdabot>  0.9808346352091845
17:46:55 <int-e> So how does that really work... you buy a CPU-month of computation? And the fine print says that if you use a CPU in a particular minute, they will bill you for that minute? :P
17:47:52 <int-e> (That 25% number is great but is that really what they bill you for? If you keep the VM busy it'll mean more hot data in memory which is a real cost.)
17:48:19 <int-e> Or the CPU may be idle while data for your VM is swapped in.
17:48:38 <int-e> Lots of reasons why this might actually end up with you being billed for 100% of that time.
17:48:53 <int-e> <3 speculation
17:50:39 <nakilon> in the Billing interface when I chose the time span of the last half of the month I see that it applies a "360 hours discount" 
17:51:09 <nakilon> but I'm already exceeding it because in some freaking way I've used 470 hours
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17:51:49 <nakilon> and so it already has few dollars to bill to the time of the next invoice, and the prediction is even higher for this month than for the previous one
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17:52:40 <nakilon> so I've migrated half of the services to another cloud and switrched the machine type to pay ZERO but in fact I've got billed in August even more than usually, even more in September and even MORE in October according to the current extrapolation
17:56:18 <nakilon> their Free Tier does not separate CPU from RAM -- it says "one e2-micro instance per month"
17:57:47 <esolangs> [[Scroll]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88615&oldid=87568 * MathR * (+118) 
18:00:51 <nakilon> I'm 80% sure they are billing me for the instance that has glitched and isn't under my control
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18:01:24 <nakilon> so I've provided screenshot of my Compute Engine panel
18:05:51 <nakilon> but it would explain only a September anyway, but I was billed for August for no reason too...
18:06:12 <b_jonas> I haven't heard of a virtual server provider that charges extra for CPU usage yet. only ones that charge extra for the amount of data through net connection. it's how they can offer such a low base price then catch you unaware. more honest model would just limit the net access (or CPU respectively) to very slow when you exceed the quota, with an option to pay for more, rather than charge you 
18:06:18 <b_jonas> automatically.
18:06:30 <b_jonas> but the providers with the more honest models seem to have higher base prices. no surprise there.
18:06:57 <nakilon> GCP instead does not have charges for traffic
18:07:47 <esolangs> [[Scroll]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88616&oldid=88615 * MathR * (+4) 
18:07:52 <b_jonas> the same distinction exists for mobile internet service too. slow your internet access when you exceed the quota, versus automatically charge a horrendous price for each byte that you go over the quota.
18:09:04 <nakilon> there are only some bucket storage traffic limits that I won't ever exceed even if I try
18:09:52 <nakilon> you'd rather reach the limits of operations count if doing it carelessly
18:12:30 <nakilon> in fact I guess it's even impossible to utilize 720 for me because https://cloud.google.com/compute/vm-instance-pricing according to this e2-micro is limited to 25% load
18:12:57 <nakilon> it's another reason why it all makes no sense
18:24:26 <b_jonas> I guess an even more evil virtual server provider could charge you extra if you accidentally allocate more hard disk capacity than is in the base price, or have more hard disk access traffic, or allocate more RAM.
18:24:32 <int-e> So what's that context, this? https://cloud.google.com/free/docs/gcp-free-tier#compute
18:26:09 <int-e> which is different in that 1) it sounds like 0.25 CPU-hours per hour because that's what the e2-micro instance gives you and 2) it takes the actual length of the month into account. so... weird
18:26:58 <int-e> love how the egress excludes China and Australia, I wonder why.
18:27:56 <b_jonas> int-e: probably because those have slow internet connections to the outside world
18:28:06 <int-e> b_jonas: this is the difference between cloud and vps providers ;)
18:28:22 <int-e> "this" being the resource-use-centric billing
19:05:59 <esolangs> [[Category:Stack-based]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88617&oldid=7904 * AceKiron * (+29) 
19:06:05 <esolangs> [[Category:Queue-based]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88618&oldid=7927 * AceKiron * (+29) 
19:11:12 <nakilon> there are websites with popular language runtimes working via webasm or smth like that
19:11:29 <nakilon> and there are websites to edit the code in coop, for job interviews, etc.
19:11:43 <nakilon> why the hell there is no website with coop editing AND the runtime?
19:13:25 <zzo38> Apple has "Uniform Type Identifier", I had my own idea of "Structured Type Identifier" which allows specifying multiple types and also allows parameters (e.g. to specify code page). It is not fully defined and may be changed later or abandoned, but for example "text:postscript:paged:document", "text:postscript:program", "postscript:paged:document", and "postscript:program" are distinguished. (Terms can be in any order.)
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19:14:51 <zzo38> It is a similar idea but I think that UTI has a few problems, such as I think it is unable to describe things like this example
19:51:17 <nakilon> oh wait, people say repl.it has both things at the same time
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22:38:04 <Asteriska> hello esolangs irc
22:38:18 <Asteriska> oops i pinged the bot
22:39:44 <Asteriska> im trying to make an interpreter for hanoi love, in ruby, on replit.com, and im running into a point where i have no clue how to get it working
22:41:21 <Corbin> Cool.
22:41:32 <Asteriska> this is the spec sheet http://kidsquid.com:443/files/hanoilove/hanoi.txt
22:42:12 <Asteriska> and this is what ive got so far https://replit.com/@foxsouns/HanoiL-Intp
22:42:33 <Asteriska> just trying to wrap my head around it is hurting
22:42:55 <Asteriska> this is my first project
22:44:13 <Asteriska> maybe not the easiest haha
22:44:42 <Asteriska> anybody have any experience to give me a hand?
22:46:46 <nakilon> Asteriska what does stop you?
22:47:42 <Asteriska> logic, i guess: i cant think of a way to handle and express the stacks
22:52:45 <nakilon> woah, basic
22:53:23 <Asteriska> i know: wanted to bring it to a modern lang when i first saw it
22:54:12 <Asteriska> quickbasic runs on dos only, afaik: nobody wants to port it to js or anything haha
22:54:21 <nakilon> what is cleaned?
22:54:40 <nakilon> quick basic worked fine on Win XP at least
22:54:57 <nakilon> pretty sure it's supported even today, just named diffrently maybe
22:55:03 <Asteriska> its just the proper instructions, with all else removed
22:56:01 <Asteriska> basically i take out these: . ' , ; ` "  : !
22:56:02 <nakilon> so cleaned is the code?
22:56:06 <Asteriska> yeah
22:56:23 <nakilon> how does stack D work?
22:56:30 <nakilon> *supposed to work
22:56:56 <Asteriska> its something like the code being ran? im lost on it tbh
22:56:58 <nakilon> I guses you don't need \ in lines 41 and 45
22:57:52 <Asteriska> and line 58 of reference.txt explains stack d
22:58:37 <Asteriska> its a weird self-editing clusterfuck thing, supposedly what loops are based upon
22:59:05 <nakilon> I guess D is like addresses of call stack
22:59:45 <nakilon> but you control it manually...
23:00:45 <Asteriska> yeah: i was hoping it'd be one of those things where its easy to implement, but hard to use, but that is not the case
23:00:54 <Asteriska> its just hard all around
23:01:14 <Asteriska> and basic isnt very legible, so i dont really know how he pulled it off
23:01:18 <nakilon> so D is like a storage of addresses for manual GOTO
23:02:06 <Asteriska> that would make sense; if it helps ive got some of the sample programs i found in the progs/ folder
23:03:06 <nakilon> as I understood you ahve to store indices in D but you assign cleaned to it that is wrong
23:03:53 <Asteriska> dang, now i have to refigure out how arrays work
23:05:27 <zzo38> QuickBasic works on DOSBOX on Linux
23:05:30 <nakilon> I don't see where is the instruction of goto, how does it loop?
23:05:39 <Asteriska> supposedly d
23:09:24 <nakilon> \wa ascii 34
23:09:27 <velik>  Name: quotation mark | Similar characters: ʺ (modifier letter double prime) | ̋ (combining double acute accent) | ̎ (combining double vertical line above) | ״ (Hebrew punctuation Gershayim) | , , (double prime) | 〃 (ditto mark)
23:11:19 <Asteriska> ?
23:11:36 <Asteriska> oh
23:11:43 <Asteriska> thats a bot, duh
23:12:48 <Asteriska> zzo38: i dont always have access to a linux system, and dont want a programming language's only implementation to be via a vm
23:13:04 <nakilon> from the basic code I suppose that , isn't fully described I don't see it
23:13:12 <fizzie> Using WolframAlpha to look up an ASCII character feels a little like using an <insert big thing> to do an <insert small task>.
23:13:28 <nakilon> , is goto when we are on stack D
23:13:32 <nakilon> I suppose
23:13:52 <fizzie> That's under the "stacks" part of the spec.
23:13:59 <nakilon> fizzie how would you look up ascii with HackEso?
23:15:06 <nakilon> oh indeed
23:16:52 <Asteriska> im figuring, have sd set to an array from 0 to the code length - 1, and go from there
23:17:45 <nakilon> aren't all stacks emotry from start?
23:17:49 <nakilon> *empty
23:18:38 <Asteriska> excluding d, and when stacks abc are empty, they pop 1,0,0 respectively
23:19:43 <Asteriska> one sec ive got an idea
23:19:46 <fizzie> Re the ASCII lookup, that's actually surprisingly nontrivial when it's a decimal number. There's many many ways to do it by hex or octal because those are available as escape sequences, but decimal usually isn't.
23:19:50 <fizzie> `` unidecode $(printf '\x'$(printf %02x 34))  # silly but works
23:19:51 <HackEso> ​[U+0022 QUOTATION MARK]
23:20:34 <fizzie> Of course shelling out to some oneliner-friendly programming language (awk, perl, ...) is probably the way to go on HackEso.
23:20:46 <fizzie> `forth 34 emit
23:20:47 <HackEso> ​"
23:23:43 <Asteriska> according to the spec, the following should be equivalent to bf .[+.]
23:23:47 <Asteriska> . , ' " ' . . . . . . ' . . , ' . . . : , . ; ' . . . . , ' " ' . . . . . . , ! . . . ; .
23:24:15 <Asteriska> that means theres a loop there, somehow
23:25:00 <Asteriska> let me cut it down a bit 
23:25:38 <Asteriska> . , ' " ' . . ' . . , ' . . . : , . ; ' , ' " ' . . , ! . . . ; .
23:26:49 <fizzie> You could say the loop part is the ..., right before the !.
23:27:54 <nakilon> what does it do when it reaches the last character? the .
23:28:17 <Asteriska> thats unneeded, but it switches stacks
23:28:23 <Asteriska> forgot to take it out
23:28:42 <Asteriska> i just took out the bits that had 4 .'s in a row because thats redundant
23:29:36 <fizzie> Yeah, that trailing . would be just a leftover from the BF translation, so that the next translated instruction would have a predictable stack (A).
23:31:27 <Asteriska> it moves to B, pops to the register, copies to stack b, pops to stdout, modes to D, copies to D, moves to B, pops to register, copies reg to b, moves to a, starts "loop", (cont soon)
23:33:39 <Asteriska> fuck this is confusing to keep ahold of
23:34:05 <fizzie> The loop really started from the "copies to D" instruction.
23:34:10 <Asteriska> yeah
23:34:33 <Asteriska> and i assume next read from d is the goto
23:35:57 <nakilon> I don't understand what does ` do in Echo program
23:37:39 <Asteriska> i assume its a part of the check for the "end at 255" claim it makes
23:38:09 <Asteriska> because ` is sub current stack from register
23:38:25 <nakilon> I thought : is check for \x00
23:38:52 <Asteriska> makes sense
23:39:16 <fizzie> "If a stack is empty when asked to pop a value, the value returned will be 1 for A, --"
23:39:45 <Asteriska> for b and c, it pops 0, and d never pops 
23:39:48 <fizzie> So the initial , from A will give 1, and then the "; will *add* the input character to that 1.
23:40:05 <nakilon> omg
23:40:05 <fizzie> So the : will be a check for 255 or -1, whichever way you want to look at it.
23:41:13 <fizzie> And then the ` subtracts that 1 back out so you get to print the original character.
23:41:31 <Asteriska> in the reference, this is the comment "Echo: (Outputs back any input received.  Enter char 255 to end) "
23:41:44 <fizzie> (The 1 is still on the stack at that point, because the ,' pushed it on there.)
23:42:25 <Asteriska> and the program stacks only store 8bit
23:42:28 <nakilon> oh so ` subtracts -1 after the exit check
23:42:29 <nakilon> ok
23:42:35 <nakilon> *1
23:43:08 <Asteriska> im assuming that the default behaviour should be loop back to 0 from 255, and vice versa
23:43:18 <Asteriska> at least, thats the way i would make it
23:44:16 <Asteriska> im going to stare at the basic code for a while
23:45:25 <nakilon> so you have sa, sb, sc, sd = [], [], [], []; instead of storing a number in it you can do something like.... st = [sa, sb, sc, sd] and then st.rotate!(1) and st.rotate!(-1) and then access the current stack as st[0]
23:45:41 <Asteriska> its settled: i dont understand basic
23:45:57 <Asteriska> nakilon: thats smart, im going to impliment that rq
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23:46:47 <fizzie> Here's an annotated echo: https://0x0.st/-EsA.txt
23:47:02 <nakilon> though it becomes harder to check which stack you are on to implement those different behaviours for a, b, c, d...; you would need .eql? or .equal? instead of == I suppose
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23:49:04 <nakilon> or you could even store the whole instruction handler lambda attached to the stack object as the "OOP style" would suggest
23:49:32 <nakilon> but it would make your code deeper into ruby though
23:50:13 <fizzie> I imagine the choice of .',;`":! as instructions must've been a deliberate choice to be as non-mnemonic as possible.
23:50:42 <nakilon> I mean imagine classes A, B, C, D that are all inherited from something the same for all instrucitions but those few that are different for D are declared additionally for it
23:51:54 <nakilon> fizzie do you have an idea why does A pop 1?
23:52:12 <fizzie> So that the echo program could be so short and sweet? ;)
23:52:33 <nakilon> yeah that's the only eplanation I see so far
23:52:39 <Asteriska> naikilon: theres no other way to get a 1 other than from user input
23:52:42 <fizzie> Oh, maybe more seriously, so that you have *something* nonzero other than the isntruction offsets.
23:52:44 <nakilon> that it's somehow ralated
23:53:09 <nakilon> oh
23:53:11 <fizzie> Right, you can't pop from D to the register either.
23:53:13 <nakilon> indeed, no literals
23:53:54 <Asteriska> theres basically an add, a minus, a pop, a push, a switch, a modifier, and start skip and end skip
23:54:36 <nakilon> Asteriska forget about the rotate(), I guess it does not give a profit 
23:56:14 <Asteriska> nakilon i meant that with the "switch" term
23:56:15 <nakilon> line 40 will be: when ?.  then st = (st + 1) % 4
23:57:16 <nakilon> and declare some ss = [sa, sb, sc, sd] so ss[st] will be current stack
23:59:00 <Asteriska> nakilon: refresh, i think youre looking at an older version
23:59:09 <Asteriska> because as it sits, 40 is a comment
23:59:25 <nakilon> you can take a look at RASEL implementation -- it has tests; if you throw out 99% of code ..) you could reuse it to put those ./progs into test.rb and see when they'll start passing
23:59:45 <nakilon> oops

2021-10-08:

00:02:34 <Asteriska> reload and make sure that 38 there makes sense,
00:03:43 <nakilon> I still think sd should be []
00:04:56 <Asteriska> i thought it should be a list of numbers equal to the clean code, and be incremented every time the interpret loop is ran
00:06:12 <Asteriska> this is hard to work out :<
00:06:32 <nakilon> the only thing to increment in a loop is what you already do in 41
00:07:17 <nakilon> sd isn't a part of the language machine -- it's just a storage used by user
00:07:37 <Asteriska> oh
00:07:44 <Asteriska> shit one second then
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00:12:47 <nakilon> I guess specification does not say what if you goto out of bounds of the code so maybe change the "until (cp+=1) == cl" to "while (0...cl).include?(cp+=1)
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00:14:02 <nakilon> why is there a .bundle dir? is it how repl.it works?
00:15:04 <nakilon> yeah, probably
00:17:45 <fizzie> How could you goto out of bounds? The only way to get a value to the D stack is to push the address of the previous instruction, and the only way to set the IP is to either increment it or pop it off of D.
00:19:20 <Asteriska> nakilon: ive installed highline, thats how replit deals with it
00:19:24 <nakilon> oh I thought you can push arbitrary value to D
00:19:40 <nakilon> ok then
00:20:22 <nakilon> I'm bad in reading specification today I guess
00:20:45 <Asteriska> its good
00:21:54 <fizzie> : without a matching ! does look a little underspecified. Judging from the BASIC code, it's probably just an error though.
00:22:14 <fizzie> Also didn't catch that :! can be nested.
00:22:52 <fizzie> Guess the BF translation wouldn't really go if they couldn't.
00:23:07 <nakilon> I guess I saw a word "corresponding" !
00:23:30 <nakilon> so it probably means they should be properly nested
00:24:43 <nakilon> 'matching "!"'
00:25:22 <Asteriska> i think i just might move to gh with this one, shadow it from replit, and allow prs
00:25:25 <fizzie> Given the name of the language, I think it should also enforce a rule that the values on each stack must be monotonic, just to keep it challenging. ;)
00:25:45 <nakilon> and tehre is variable LVL
00:26:20 <Asteriska> fizzie: you risk losing bf compatibility that way
00:28:25 <nakilon> fizzie https://esolangs.org/wiki/Hanoiing
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00:32:42 <Asteriska> what did i miss
00:34:25 <nakilon> nothing
00:35:47 <Asteriska> cool
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00:38:17 <Asteriska> webchat problems
00:38:29 <Asteriska> here it should be https://github.com/foxsouns/HanoiL-Intp-Ruby
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00:44:22 <Asteriska> ive got to go, but if anybody has any ideas, please send an issue or pr to https://github.com/foxsouns/HanoiL-Intp-Ruby. ill set up discussions in a bit
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09:45:34 <nakilon> I just realised that has never seen a folder in bin
09:46:09 <nakilon> is there any reason why programs creates executables in, sometimes lots of executables but not joining them in a folder?
09:46:31 <nakilon> so instead of rasel-convert and rasel-ide it would be rasel/convert rasel/ide
09:47:13 <nakilon> yay, a grammar of a person who didn't yet fully wake up
09:51:41 <wib_jonas> nakilon: it's a unix convention, probably so that when the shell looks up a name the directories in PATH, it doesn't find directories too. you create folders under the lib and share and var directories instead.
09:55:05 <nakilon> I don't see a problem in looking up directories in PATH, it only has to be sure that the last path component is a file
09:55:25 <nakilon> though I'm not even sure it really does such checks if they just use only one depth level
09:57:17 <nakilon> and auto-complete should work fine as I imagine; you type "rase" press tab, get "rasel", press again, get all the binaries in bin/rasel/
11:00:50 <fizzie> Shells don't look up things with slashes in $PATH.
11:01:20 <fizzie> If you type `foo/bar`, the only executable it will run is $CWD/foo/bar, it won't look for a `foo` subdirectory in directories named in the path.
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11:02:54 <fizzie> From `man bash`: "If the command name contains no slashes, the shell attempts to locate it."
11:04:52 <fizzie> It's also the POSIXly correct behavior for `sh`: "If the command name does not contain any <slash> characters, the first successful step in the following sequence shall occur: [a whole bunch of search operations]. If the command name contains at least one <slash>, the shell shall execute the utility in a separate utility environment with actions equivalent to calling the execl() function defined
11:04:54 <fizzie> in the System Interfaces volume of POSIX.1-2017 with the path and arg0 arguments set to the command name, and the remaining execl() arguments set to the command arguments (if any) and the null terminator."
11:06:46 <fizzie> And the behavior for the `exec*p` series of functions that perform a path search: "If the file argument contains a <slash> character, the file argument shall be used as the pathname for this file. Otherwise, the path prefix for this file is obtained by a search of the directories passed as the environment variable PATH --"
11:10:22 <wib_jonas> fizzie: what's confusing is, HackEgo did use to look up executables with a slash in their name, and we used to have a $HACKENV/bin/le/rn executable that you could invoke by typing `le/rn in IRC message
11:11:23 <wib_jonas> or... maybe it didn't?
11:11:29 <wib_jonas> we have a /hackenv/le now,
11:11:36 <wib_jonas> ``` ls -aF /hackenv/le/
11:11:37 <HackEso> ​./ \ ../ \ rm@ \ rn@ \ rn_append@
11:11:48 <wib_jonas> but hg log says we used to have a /hackenv/bin/le
11:11:52 <wib_jonas> maybe that was just a mistake
11:13:25 <wib_jonas> `run hg log --removed -T "{rev}:{date|shortdate}:{desc}\n" /hackenv/bin/le | sed s/ac/aс/ # /hackenv/bin/le was deleted the same day as it was created, so it was probably just a mistake
11:13:27 <HackEso> 6838:2016-02-14:<shaсhaf> rm bin/le \ 6837:2016-02-14:<shaсhaf> mkx bin/le//echo le
11:13:45 <wib_jonas> sorry then, probably HackEgo too only looked up executable names with a slash in its wd
11:13:51 <fizzie> "echo le"? 
11:14:15 <fizzie> Yeah, though I don't think it's impossible HackEso's command execution semantics have been... unconventional.
11:14:49 <wib_jonas> that was in 2016, so HackEgo before HackEso, but sure
11:15:19 <wib_jonas> I was wondering if it would special case a starting backtick followed by a space
11:15:32 <wib_jonas> ` # but it seems it doesn't do so, that just always fails
11:15:33 <HackEso> ​? Permission denied
11:17:30 <wib_jonas> and maybe special case backtick followed by slash too
11:17:45 <wib_jonas> no wait, not that
11:17:52 <wib_jonas> just backtick followed by slash followed by space
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12:07:37 <nakilon> lol google
12:09:04 <nakilon> they uncover that the "free tier" does not work because the disk is of some another type; and still ignore everything I say about the CPU time
12:17:11 <wib_jonas> on https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2021-09.html#ley whether one of the usual representations of GF(2**8) is the same as the IOCCC representation. David Madore talks about the IOCCC representation in https://twitter.com/gro_tsen/status/1437520279136346114 . I believe the answer is no.
12:27:45 <nakilon> I mean it's just another try of that support guy to "explain" the bill -- he says that my disk is out of Free Tier, but it's just 20% of the bill
12:28:22 <nakilon> it's like I'm  in fucking court and he uses all the possible bullshit manipulations to falsely accuse me
12:29:12 <nakilon> in using >720 hours in any insane way like "we have more than 30 days in a month" and now "you was charged because of the wrong disk" -- I don't care that I was charged for disk, it's just $2, tell me about almost $10 already for the CPU
12:29:48 <nakilon> if he won't enable his brain I gotta move to Yandex Cloud
12:30:38 <nakilon> also I was billed in August because it uncovers that e2-micro were not in Free Tier in August yet and I'm not the one who was confused https://www.reddit.com/r/googlecloud/comments/oo55s1/upgraded_free_tier_f1micro_vm_to_an_e2micro/
12:31:10 <nakilon> also there are people in that thread who were charged for disk too because the default disk type was not from free tier
12:31:38 <nakilon> but it's still not a big deal compared to this CPU nonsense
12:44:44 <esolangs> [[Help.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88619 * WhyNot? * (+605) Created page with "This language is created by [[User:WhyNot?]]. Work in progress!!! Based off Assembly. == Syntax == There are infinite memory slots, which each can hold 1 byte of information...."
12:45:11 <esolangs> [[User:WhyNot?]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88620&oldid=88272 * WhyNot? * (+12) 
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13:11:51 <Guest6186> ok
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13:25:19 <nakilon> so my latest understanding now that they don't care about the CPU load at all
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13:25:30 <nakilon> and bill you for 24 hours a day
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13:25:57 <nakilon> still does not fully sum up, anyway
13:33:19 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88621&oldid=88602 * PixelatedStarfish * (+206) /* Hello World */
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13:50:27 <esolangs> [[BracketsLang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88622&oldid=88611 * PoetLuchnik * (+315) added Alphabet program
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14:28:45 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88623&oldid=88575 * WhyNot? * (+12) 
14:32:10 <esolangs> [[Help.]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88624&oldid=88619 * WhyNot? * (+56) 
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14:44:47 <Asteriska> nakilon: you active?
14:45:22 <Asteriska> decided to come here so that communications would be quicker
14:47:34 <Asteriska> to anyone else interested: im working on an interpreting an old as dirt esolang at https://github.com/foxsouns/HanoiL-Intp-Ruby with n akilon there
14:48:01 <Asteriska> esolang in question is Hanoi Love, made for quickbasic in 2001
14:48:14 <Asteriska> reimpliment is in ruby
14:51:19 <int-e> `relcome Asteriska
14:51:22 <HackEso> ​Asteriska: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
14:52:01 <Asteriska> hi int-e
14:53:23 <int-e> Just demonstrating that the channel isn't dead :P (It isn't, you can check the logs. But it's not the busiest of channels either.)
14:53:33 <Asteriska> ah, i see
14:56:33 <nakilon> Asteriska I'm partially afk
14:56:46 <Asteriska> i see
14:56:52 <int-e> Ah https://esolangs.org/wiki/Hanoi_Love exists, though it's more of a stub
14:57:56 <int-e> Oh it has an interpreter in QuickBasic... fun.
14:58:01 <Asteriska> i know
14:58:16 <Asteriska> unlegible, dos-only, sad
14:58:18 <int-e> I think that qualifies as esoteric these days.
14:58:42 <Asteriska> haha really
14:58:56 <Asteriska> although theres no js interpreter for quickbasic yet
14:59:23 <Asteriska> (well, technically theres one, but its only been put up to spec enough to run qb's snake)
14:59:48 <nakilon> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QB64
14:59:50 <int-e> That was a pretty nice game.
14:59:54 <nakilon> Stable release
14:59:54 <nakilon> 1.5 / February 28, 2021; 7 months ago
15:00:25 <Asteriska> im stuck on chromeos and linux occasionally: it's not an option for me
15:01:03 <nakilon> OSMicrosoft Windows, Linux, macOS
15:01:14 <Asteriska> ah
15:01:46 <Asteriska> made the assumption that it was win only because the wikipedia page mentioned vista :p
15:01:51 <nakilon> https://github.com/QB64Team/qb64/releases
15:02:50 <nakilon> "QB64 can also use DLL libraries for Windows and C++ headers with a DECLARE LIBRARY block. Users can also access C header files to run C functions."
15:02:56 <nakilon> time to go back to the roots
15:04:50 <Asteriska> im stuck on chromeos for the time being: my normal cpu's out of commission atm :(
15:05:43 <Asteriska> but what matters is that somebody involved can finally check the original interpreter's specs
15:06:17 <Asteriska> like what happens when you under/overflow? and how the fuck does stack d work?
15:06:21 <nakilon> have you run the bundle exec ruby test.rb? does it pass?
15:06:46 <int-e> Oh no, I have qbasic but no snake.bas
15:06:47 <nakilon> you can continue from there, implementing the rest of instructions and add corresponding tests
15:07:18 <int-e> (I could dig it up. I remember modifying it so the snakes grow longer)
15:07:30 <Asteriska> nakilon: im on it, but havent yet
15:07:49 <nakilon> d is a storage for goto addresses -- see how echo stores the position to then return to on the !
15:07:52 <nakilon> *echo example
15:11:47 <Asteriska> nakilon: works
15:12:01 <nakilon> so you do smth like: when ?' then ss[st].push cp
15:12:02 <Asteriska> had to reinstall minitest-around via replit's way
15:12:06 <wib_jonas> int-e: right, plus we didn't welcome Asteriska yesterday
15:12:45 <nakilon> when ?! then cp = ss[st].pop
15:12:50 <nakilon> smth like that
15:13:24 <nakilon> do you mean you have no ruby installed in your chrome os?
15:14:10 <Asteriska> ive been working off of replit, this isnt my device so i cant turn on crostini or use crouton
15:14:42 <Asteriska> well, not explicitly mine: it's shared
15:15:33 <Asteriska> anyways i will mirror any changes to the github, and vice versa for the replit
15:15:41 <nakilon> btw probably you can also push the cp to any of 4 stacks, you just won't be able to then pop that value in a way to assign it back to cp
15:16:53 <nakilon> the damn GCP provide free of charge shell with 0.6gb RAM and 1 core
15:17:22 <nakilon> you can ssh to it right in a browser without creating a VM instance
15:17:35 <Asteriska> wait what? no charge?
15:17:49 <Asteriska> any outstanding limits?
15:18:10 <nakilon> no charge, it's made for emergency purposes so you can do things around your cloud, using a fully functional linux right in your browser
15:18:18 <nakilon> i.e. accessing from any device
15:18:48 <Asteriska> ffffffuck
15:18:50 <nakilon> just need to authorize in GCP and create the project in the first place, attaching the credit card, etc., it just won't cost anything if you use it only for that
15:19:12 <Asteriska> i cant use it, not using my personal account so it decides to nix it
15:19:46 <nakilon> there is also something new I didn't see before https://cloud.google.com/shell
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15:20:13 <Asteriska> i might look at gearhost
15:20:21 <nakilon> looks like vs code I suppose
15:21:08 <nakilon> it's integrated with GCP's code repositories system that is analogue to github, just not for accepting public PRs and stuff; anyway it's an IDE
15:21:42 <Asteriska> replit is an ide, with integration with gh
15:22:11 <Asteriska> it seems to work fairly well, with a little bit of sandboxing to work around
15:22:18 <nakilon> and the shell I talked about initially is this I suppose https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Cloud_Shell 
15:22:40 <Asteriska> yeah, picked that up from a simple google search of gcp
15:22:42 <nakilon> it's just a machine with no ports opened except of ssh for your connection
15:23:22 <Asteriska> id love to mess with that, but my org. account blocks it
15:23:33 <nakilon> I was wrong about the RAM amount
15:24:17 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88625&oldid=88621 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Commands */
15:27:35 <Asteriska> heroku provides 25mb ram and iirc up to 64gb storage, over 20 instances
15:27:41 <Asteriska> as far as i can tell
15:28:58 <Asteriska> oh wait, not 25 haha
15:29:03 <Asteriska> read from the wrong section
15:29:09 <Asteriska> seems to be half a gig
15:29:55 <Asteriska> does seem to be a limit on hours of use per month
15:30:05 <sknebel> oracle cloud also has some free tier. but it's, you know, oracle
15:31:21 <Asteriska> thats the java os right
15:31:33 <Asteriska> or was it oracle's linux distro
15:31:39 <Asteriska> i cant remember
15:32:04 <nakilon> when I last checked heroku wasn't for the 24/7 launched servers
15:32:26 <nakilon> it just allocated resources to handle web requests
15:36:01 <Asteriska> fuck it im signing up and investigating
15:36:01 <nakilon> Yandex Cloud has only the serverless part for free for now https://cloud.yandex.ru/docs/billing/concepts/serverless-free-tier
15:36:32 <nakilon> I will probably migrate once they make free VMs
15:37:32 <nakilon> the difference from GCP is that they don't have the VMs with terabytes of RAM and petabytes of disks and I won't need them any way obviously
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15:38:27 <nakilon> and not much documentation
15:38:53 <Asteriska> heroku seems promising for simple programming stuff
15:39:32 <nakilon> we also have two other clouds -- from Mail.ru and from Sberbank but they won't have free tiers
15:40:12 <Asteriska> ive got ~three bucks on a prepaid debit card
15:40:28 <nakilon> mailru is small and sberbank is just a bank, I will never trust them
15:40:36 <Asteriska> true
15:41:14 <nakilon> they develop their cloud on a machine learning hype selling those GPU clusters
15:41:19 <Asteriska> with the yandex option, does what exactly does serverless entail
15:42:23 <nakilon> Asteriska serverless means you host your applications on the machines you don't access in a traditional way like ssh
15:42:31 <nakilon> they connect and scale stuff for you
15:42:41 <Asteriska> annoying
15:42:44 <nakilon> hehe
15:42:58 <Asteriska> seems like heroku is the same way :<
15:44:01 <nakilon> yeah it's kind of overkill for start, like instead of having a small server always on that handles your web request instantly it would launch the whole new linux machine to process that single request and then shutdown -- all in serveral minutes with a huge lag
15:44:28 <Asteriska> quite annoying
15:44:41 <nakilon> but when you are a huge consumer you allocate a ton of instances in the scaling options so this stuff is always on and ready to process and isn't lagging too much
15:45:35 <Asteriska> im about to give up and just use copy.sh/x86
15:46:17 <nakilon> velik for example starts a new machine right now to respond
15:46:21 <Asteriska> kidding, of course
15:46:29 <velik>  I was no rid only that, but it distinguishes ok functional with the style I now did around
15:46:53 <Asteriska> ?
15:47:05 <nakilon> it took him 12 seconds -- few seconds to start and few seconds to process the request, but if I configure it to have one instance on 24/7 it would be faster
15:47:13 <nakilon> it's a bot
15:47:25 <nakilon> a serverless part of it
15:47:26 <Asteriska> oh
15:47:27 <Asteriska> bot
15:47:44 <Asteriska> ah
15:48:46 <Asteriska> ah shit ive got to go for a while
15:50:36 <nakilon> actually the chat reply that velik does is a so called "Cloud Functions", not a "Cloud Run" so it's not really starting a fully new VM, it's something hybrid
15:52:20 <nakilon> it's limited to the chosen runtime, like a "ruby26" in this case, most of the file system is read-only, etc., but it responds faster than Cloud Run; still both are called "serverless"
15:52:43 <nakilon> anyway
15:58:05 <sknebel> oracle cloud is just plain linux VMs: https://docs.oracle.com/en-us/iaas/Content/FreeTier/freetier_topic-Always_Free_Resources.htm
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16:35:44 <Asteriska> oh my god i am going to choke the liberachat webclient
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16:36:45 <Asteriska> i see from the logs ive missed nothing except my abscense
16:36:51 <Asteriska> absence*
16:40:26 <esolangs> [[Help.]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88628&oldid=88627 * WhyNot? * (+144) 
16:43:29 <esolangs> [[Help.]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88629&oldid=88628 * WhyNot? * (-62) 
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17:24:20 <esolangs> [[FlipJump]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88630&oldid=88612 * Tomhe * (+46) /* The Standard Library */ more ops
17:30:19 <esolangs> [[Help.]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88631&oldid=88629 * WhyNot? * (+70) 
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17:34:03 <Asteriska> wow so many edits from whynot as of late
17:35:18 <Corbin> Unlike WP, there's no rule about batching edits and using the preview button, so some folks make lots of small edits in a row.
17:37:23 <fizzie> I have thought about adding a gentle suggestion about the preview button, mostly just because of the IRC thing. But it's unclear whether people would notice.
17:38:40 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88633&oldid=88625 * PixelatedStarfish * (-26) /* Commands */
17:39:06 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88634&oldid=88633 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* Commands */
17:39:22 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88635&oldid=88634 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* Commands */
17:40:26 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88636&oldid=88635 * PixelatedStarfish * (+57) /* Commands */
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17:59:49 <nakilon> sknebel wow "18,000 GB hours per month for free" this sounds like 20 times larger than in GCP
17:59:59 <nakilon> though idk what's the performance of their CPU
18:01:47 <nakilon> fizzie try some CSS like this one https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Not_applicable to make them notice
18:03:16 <nakilon> oh probably OCPU is something like usual CPU core
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19:02:39 <esolangs> [[Help.]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88640&oldid=88631 * WhyNot? * (+54) 
19:03:18 <esolangs> [[Help.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88641&oldid=88640 * WhyNot? * (+1) 
19:03:39 <esolangs> [[Help.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88642&oldid=88641 * WhyNot? * (-1) 
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21:20:50 <esolangs> [[Unpl]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88644 * Larryrl * (+2824) Created page with "{{lowercase}} {{infobox proglang |name=Unpl |author=[[Larryrl]] |year=[[:Category:2021|2021]] |memsys=[[:Category:Cell-based|Cell-based]] |dimensions=one-dimensional |influenc..."
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21:21:34 <esolangs> [[DetailedFuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88645&oldid=69380 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+46) Rectified the non-functional Hello, world! example by swapping each opening bracket [ with a closing bracket ] and vice versa.
21:22:30 <esolangs> [[Unpl]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88646&oldid=88644 * Larryrl * (+92) /* Instructions */
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21:22:59 <esolangs> [[Unpl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88647&oldid=88646 * Larryrl * (+1) /* Examples */
21:25:23 <esolangs> [[DetailedFuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88648&oldid=88645 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+2739) Introduced the Common Lisp code for translating DetailedFuck to brainfuck.
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22:19:31 <esolangs> [[Chainfall]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88650 * Fmbalbuena * (+221) redirect page
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22:31:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88651&oldid=88609 * Shovel * (+186) /* Introductions */
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22:32:43 <esolangs> [[DetailedFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88652&oldid=88648 * Kaveh Yousefi * (-1) Amended an orthographic error in the Common Lisp code by changing the word instructions to its singular form instruction.
22:33:08 <fizzie> Weird, the fungot computer just rebooted out of nowhere.
22:33:19 <fizzie> Heard a beep from there and all.
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22:37:02 <nakilon> it's evolving
22:37:03 <fizzie> No idea what was up with that. Nothing in the logs either; I don't have persistent systemd journal, and the more old-fashioned /var/log/messages and such just have normal log events, a few hundred bytes of '\0's, and then the boot messages.
22:37:09 <nakilon> needs to shed the skin to grow
22:37:32 <fizzie> Oh well. Maybe it was a glitchy power thing or something. I don't have any UPS or filtering on it or anything.
22:37:37 <fizzie> fungot: Can you shed any light on this? 
22:37:37 <fungot> fizzie: i think most of the picture. i still don't think it would pay off to eat
22:37:58 <nakilon> that's eat
22:38:00 <fizzie> fungot: Well, yes, definitely don't try *eating* anything.
22:38:00 <fungot> fizzie: the virtual address space is still 32-bits, though?
22:38:02 <nakilon> you don't feed him
22:38:15 <nakilon> &that's it
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23:41:49 <esolangs> [[Unpl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88653&oldid=88649 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5) user namespace
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12:13:16 <nakilon> the support guy started to quote absolutely random irrelevant pieces of docs to just "answer the email"
12:13:27 <nakilon> this is a scam
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14:38:25 <riv> who?
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15:31:35 <int-e> riv: some poor guy at Google who has to justify the decisions made by the billing system to customers
15:31:45 <riv> i am missing context
15:31:54 <int-e> riv: only a few days of it
15:32:29 <int-e> AIUI nakilon got billed for his free tier VM and doesn't understand why (nor, I think, does anybody else)
15:32:45 <int-e> I'm sure that's oversimplified
15:33:40 <int-e> With some luck we'll get a tl;dr out of this :P
15:33:59 <riv> oh shit
15:34:03 <riv> that's my worst nightmare
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15:50:34 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88657&oldid=88656 * PixelatedStarfish * (-4) /* Commands */
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15:59:13 <nakilon> --------------- Original Message ---------------
15:59:14 <nakilon> From: ?????? ?????? [nakilon@...]
15:59:38 <nakilon> their email does not support cyrillic letters in my name lol
16:00:03 <nakilon> int-e riv I guess I've found the final explanation
16:01:00 <nakilon> it's all about stupid listing the "cost" and "discount" with opposite signs and on the opposite ends of the bill list
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16:03:45 <nakilon> simply saying, the bill says: Total - $8, CPU - $4, RAM - $2, other stuff - <descending numbers>, ... 
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16:05:19 <nakilon> so it looks like CPU+RAM are the main parts of the bill, but in fact 4 pages below there is: RAM discount - -$1.9, CPU discount - -$3.9
16:06:03 <nakilon> while the "other stuff" really sum up to the same 6-8 $ if you look closely
16:09:28 <nakilon> riv but if you want a puzzle, this still remains a mistery for me https://i.imgur.com/TaIWnE2.png - what does it mean 380h = $-1.8, 96h = $+2.1
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16:13:14 <int-e> so 384h would be 16 days?
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16:27:18 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88658&oldid=88081 * Heptor * (+35) /* Brainfuck derivatives */
16:32:59 <int-e> I mean together with the graphs this reads like... 384h of a quarter vCPU, which sat idle for most of the time accumulating a discount, but not for the full 16 days because of whatever happened between September 28th and October 1st. And then there's another 96h of full vCPU time (stretched over the 16 day period, so effectively also a quarter vCPU). It is funny that those numbers don't compare.
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16:36:51 <int-e> I guess the biggest part of the puzzle is... are there actually two VMs involved?
16:39:20 <int-e> (It's also funny that it says 383.98 for what should logically be 384.)
16:39:53 <int-e> ("logically"... by the logic that this represents 384h of using a quarter of a vCPU)
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17:12:00 <fizzie> I've never looked into Cloud pricing or actually tried to take advantage of the free tier, but I've always assumed Compute Engine instances are billed based on amount of allocated CPU times instance uptime, with no effect whatsoever on whether you actually make it compute things or not (unlike Cloud Run, which does have a notion of active-but-idle).
17:12:54 <fizzie> https://cloud.google.com/compute/vm-instance-pricing "If an instance is idle, but still has a state of RUNNING, it will be charged for instance uptime."
17:14:15 <int-e> Yeah I'm sure https://i.imgur.com/TaIWnE2.png isn't the full picture (yay, pun).
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17:17:06 <fizzie> Not claiming I understand that table/chart at all. :)
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17:24:03 <fizzie> Especially the "96 hour" / "383,98 hour" thing you mentioned. The chart itself does seem to have some sort of internal consistency, in the sense that $2.09/16 ~ $0.13, which is where that daily line is, and also eyeballing the Sep 29-30 "gap" in the orange line looks like it might be worth $0.25.
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17:55:22 <esolangs> [[Help.]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88659&oldid=88654 * WhyNot? * (+0) 
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18:21:15 <esolangs> [[Unpl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88660&oldid=88653 * Larryrl * (+658) 
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19:19:52 <nakilon> fizzie that's another mystery -- there would be a gap in some 31 days long month but this discount ended on 29th
19:20:31 <nakilon> while is supposed to be 720h = 30 days long
19:21:02 <nakilon> oh, maybe in the first 2 days of September there was another instance launched while I was migrating
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19:24:06 <nakilon> and while the red/blue is supposedly proportional to 1.84/2.09, I have no idea what's the purpose of "96h" value
19:25:00 <APic> ./g 92
19:25:02 <APic> ww
19:27:42 <nakilon> and btw
19:32:41 <nakilon> real average CPU usage was 15% https://i.imgur.com/AgGKNDk.png so the fact that 96 looks like 1/4 of 384 can not mean anything else I suppose that the "reserved" that is 25% but it is irrelevant to billing anyway
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19:34:54 <nakilon> even if you suppose that that 96h value is just a misleadinly formatted "25% of 384h" it again makes no sense because Blue part is larger than Red half and the Usage values should rather be proportional to Cost values
19:35:09 <nakilon> they shouldn't be equal
19:35:24 <nakilon> they should result in that $0.25 diff
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19:43:00 <int-e> Oh is it 383.98 because it was down for about half an hour?
19:43:12 <int-e> wait
19:43:38 <int-e> that's a minute, not half an hour
19:44:53 <int-e> In any case, as suggestive as that graph is, that screenshot isn't enough to make sense of the bill.
19:45:54 <int-e> Because while it's evident that there's a gap in the discount computation it does nothing to explain that gap. Though it is suggestive that it is at the end of the month, hmm
19:46:18 <int-e> and I just realized that it should be a bar diagram rather than using straight lines to connect those data points
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19:48:52 <fizzie> Re "real average CPU usage", as I said I'm pretty sure actual CPU utilization has nothing to do with billing.
19:49:35 <fizzie> Didn't think of the 384 * 0.25 = 96 thing though, to make sense out of those two numbers.
19:50:44 <fizzie> Not that it really makes them make sense.
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19:52:11 <fizzie> Yeah, the 0.02 hour difference between 384 and 384,98 (why is that even formatted using a comma? nothing else is) hours sure doesn't explain why $2.09 and -$1.84 are so different.
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19:53:34 <fizzie> int-e: There's a pair of icons at the corner that look like a line vs. bar chart selector.
19:55:04 <fizzie> I saw the most ridiculous interpolated lines in a chart the other day, can't remember where that was.
19:55:20 <fizzie> Remember mentioning it on IRC but not which channel it was.
19:55:43 <fizzie> Oh, right, no, I do.
19:55:54 <int-e> https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/TaIWnE2.png <-- this is what I mean
19:56:17 <int-e> and suddenly it looks much more like the discount running out early September 29th and resuming on October 1st
19:56:49 <int-e> oh yeah, those icons look promising
19:57:03 <fizzie> Here, have a look at this ridiculous thing: https://snyk.io/wp-content/uploads/25b.png
19:57:34 <int-e> so smooth!
19:59:59 <int-e> But I still think we don't have sufficient information to explain that gap.
20:00:26 <int-e> The free instance's description says it's accounted monthly for the actual duration of the month, not 30 days.
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20:02:17 <fizzie> Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it'd make a lot more sense if the *discount* was a fixed daily amount, and just the actual usage it's supposed to cancel out would be the one that'd have some glitches in if (if there's been any VM reshuffling), not the other way around.
20:03:34 <fizzie> Now I'm wondering whether Cloud at Cost is still up and doing business.
20:03:49 <nakilon> int-e 1. I suppose gap is because in Sep 6 - Sep 8 there were two instance launched at the same time, when I migrated from Chromium to Ubuntu 2. there is a bar mode too nebaled by a button in upper right, yeah, it looks nicier but support guy LOVES lines
20:04:04 <int-e> fizzie: re: icons... of course it would be great if those worked in a screenshot. (and scary. oh so scary.)
20:04:46 <fizzie> Heh, first thing on the cloudatcost landing page: "virtual crypto miners".
20:05:11 <fizzie> They're still selling their one-time payment VPSes though, apparently.
20:05:28 <nakilon> int-e yeah discount starts on Oct 1 because it gets kind of renewed up to 720h
20:06:24 <nakilon> so the 720 h of discount can end up earlier during the month
20:06:27 <int-e> there's also this, if this is monthly you'd need to look at the utilization for all of september.
20:06:30 <nakilon> forming the gap
20:07:15 <int-e> September had 30 days, incidentally, so it shouldn't be a calendar issue even if they give you 720h every month.
20:07:56 <int-e> But also from the description I found I'd expect them to give you 744h for October.
20:08:11 <fizzie> Yeah, I don't think it's supposed to be a fixed 720h. ("Each month, eligible use of all of your e2-micro instance is free until you have used a number of hours equal to the total hours in the current month.")
20:08:15 <int-e> But I don't know. I haven't touched GCP at all.
20:09:46 <fizzie> Cloud used to have an employee "have $20/month free credit" thing to get us all to just basically play around / experiment on it, but they stopped that before I managed to figure out what to do with it.
20:10:19 <int-e> did the free tier exist at the time?
20:10:36 <int-e> I mean it kind of serves the same purpose
20:10:54 <int-e> just in a more democratic way
20:10:56 <fizzie> It wasn't probably exactly like the current free tier offering, at least.
20:11:02 <int-e> (and, evidently, intransparent)
20:11:02 <nakilon> int-e https://i.imgur.com/LeEbEKI.png
20:11:14 <nakilon> 23:07:15 <int-e> September had 30 days, incidentally, so it shouldn't be a calendar issue
20:11:28 <int-e> right, so september 6th-8th is your problem
20:11:37 <nakilon> ^ this is why the support guy fristarted me from the start ebcause the 30 days issue was the first thing he said
20:11:39 <int-e> 7th, actually
20:11:44 <nakilon> daying that it exaplins the issue...
20:11:47 <nakilon> *s
20:11:52 <nakilon> sorry, typos
20:11:54 <int-e> as you said
20:12:08 <fizzie> I was half-expecting the esolangs cloudatcost host to just answer SSH again, but it doesn't. :/
20:12:44 <nakilon> yes, the 6-8 is a problem but instead after the "there are more than 30 days" he then switched to "you have chosen wrong type of disk..."
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20:13:06 <int-e> It also says it's run for 766.67 (quarter-vCPU) hours in September.
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20:13:39 <int-e> nakilon: Yeah you've provided quite a bit of evidence that the support person is clueless.
20:15:08 <fizzie> I don't understand those "Usage" column numbers in this later chart either. :)
20:15:49 <fizzie> And the comma is still weirding me out. :)
20:16:00 <int-e> Arguably the discount numbers should say 720h instead of 766.67
20:16:08 <nakilon> I'll post something in /r/googlecloud later to make people realise why they have this "I've switched to new e2-micro but my bill only grows!"
20:17:16 <nakilon> yeah, idk what 766.67 mean; if I have used all the discount of the month it should be something divisable by 24 I suppose
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20:17:25 <fizzie> int-e: I mean, even ignoring the core parts, the RAM part says "766,67 gibibyte hour" for both the red and orange ones.
20:17:34 <int-e> > 766.67/4 -- at least that's reasonably close to 191.67
20:17:49 <fizzie> I guess it *might* mean just "usage that's eligible for the discount", no matter whether the discount runs out or not.
20:17:51 <int-e> @bot
20:17:57 <int-e> uh.
20:18:07 <lambdabot> :)
20:18:08 <lambdabot>  191.6675
20:18:39 <int-e> wtf happened there
20:18:54 <fizzie> Maybe just Libera being slow? 
20:19:10 <nakilon> > 766.67/24
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20:19:26 <fizzie> Interesting that the order got flipped though.
20:19:53 <int-e> nah it does spawn a Haskell thread per query
20:20:37 <nakilon> ``` ruby -e 'p 766.67/24'
20:20:40 <HackEso> 31.94458333333333
20:20:58 <nakilon> ``` ruby -e 'p 32*24'
20:21:00 <HackEso> 768
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20:21:04 <lambdabot>  31.94458333333333
20:21:12 <int-e> (and the `>` involves running an external process)
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20:21:47 <int-e> but hmm. can I see what it's doing somehow I wonder...
20:21:50 <nakilon> ``` ruby -e 'p 24*0.05541'
20:21:51 <HackEso> 1.32984
20:21:55 <int-e> > 1
20:21:57 <lambdabot>  1
20:22:00 <int-e> huh
20:22:03 <nakilon> it's 32 days minus 1.32 h of discount
20:22:05 <nakilon> _<>
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20:22:58 <nakilon> oh wait, it's not discount, it's what I've used 
20:22:58 <int-e> > 3.93/720*766.67
20:23:00 <lambdabot>  4.184740416666666
20:23:15 <nakilon> so then I paid for extra 46 hours I suppose
20:23:33 <int-e> Yeah, that's what it looks like.
20:25:05 <nakilon> still not fair as someone here noted it's more than 360 days in a year so it's like you'll have to pay for 5 days even on a "Free Tier"
20:25:43 <int-e> nakilon: I believe, from the information about the free tier, that you get d*24h for a month with d days.
20:26:22 <nakilon> ah ok
20:26:23 <int-e> And fizzie also read it that way.
20:28:16 <int-e> source is here: https://cloud.google.com/free/docs/gcp-free-tier#compute "Each month, eligible use of all of your e2-micro instance is free until you have used a number of hours equal to the total hours in the current month."
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21:12:58 <esolangs> [[Unpl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88661&oldid=88660 * Larryrl * (+7) /* Instructions */
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21:14:33 <esolangs> [[Unpl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88662&oldid=88661 * Larryrl * (+1) /* Instructions */
21:21:10 <esolangs> [[Unpl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88663&oldid=88662 * Larryrl * (+516) /* Examples */
21:21:33 <esolangs> [[Unpl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88664&oldid=88663 * Larryrl * (-1) /* Examples */
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21:24:57 <esolangs> [[Unpl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88665&oldid=88664 * Larryrl * (+160) /* History */
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21:28:05 <esolangs> [[Unpl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88666&oldid=88665 * Larryrl * (+210) /* Examples */
21:28:55 <esolangs> [[Unpl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88667&oldid=88666 * Larryrl * (+2) /* Examples */
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21:34:36 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88668&oldid=88657 * PixelatedStarfish * (+178) /* Program Examples */
21:35:09 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88669&oldid=88668 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) 
21:36:05 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88670&oldid=88669 * PixelatedStarfish * (+83) /* Truth Machine */
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22:08:38 <esolangs> [[Unpl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88671&oldid=88667 * Larryrl * (+0) /* Instructions */
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23:14:55 <nakilon> ok my graph path algorithm sucks https://i.imgur.com/3vN4ywG.png it ended up with a 3-star that can not be resolved, all they ways are blacklisted; I'm so unwilling to implemented the wikipedia algorithms...
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2021-10-10:

00:10:34 <esolangs> [[Ecstatic]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88672&oldid=79668 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+4520) Supplemented a few notes regarding the encoding process, rectified incorrect tallies in the example, and added a Common Lisp implementation of the conversion routines.
00:12:09 <nakilon> heh https://i.imgur.com/jALW0h6.mp4
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01:42:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Rudolph4268 *  New user account
01:47:03 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88673&oldid=88651 * Rudolph4268 * (+296) Introduced myself. 'nuff said :)
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01:57:38 <esolangs> [[User:Rudolph4268]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88674 * Rudolph4268 * (+78) Created my user page
01:59:34 <esolangs> [[User:Rudolph4268]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88675&oldid=88674 * Rudolph4268 * (+38) edit 1
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02:18:43 <esolangs> [[Sona]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88676&oldid=88113 * 0utdacious * (+95) Noted turing completeness
02:36:22 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88677&oldid=88670 * PixelatedStarfish * (+210) 
02:37:07 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88678&oldid=88677 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Truth Machine */
02:38:06 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88679&oldid=88632 * PixelatedStarfish * (+265) /* Assembly language */
02:40:46 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88680&oldid=88678 * PixelatedStarfish * (+19) /* Program Examples */
02:41:12 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88681 * Rudolph4268 * (+1216) Initial creation
02:41:54 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88682&oldid=88680 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2) /* Hello World */
03:04:50 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88683&oldid=88681 * Rudolph4268 * (+996) /* Added and changed commands/syntax */
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03:31:46 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88684&oldid=88683 * Rudolph4268 * (+876) 
03:47:40 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88685&oldid=88684 * Rudolph4268 * (+398) Getting closer to v1.0 of this article!
03:51:50 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88686&oldid=88685 * Rudolph4268 * (+183) Almost done!
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03:57:10 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88687&oldid=88686 * Rudolph4268 * (+384) This should be good for now
03:58:26 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88688&oldid=88687 * Rudolph4268 * (+2) /* Building EXDotSF for your platform */
03:58:54 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88689&oldid=88688 * Rudolph4268 * (+2) /* Running EXDotSF programs */
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04:06:26 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88690&oldid=88689 * Rudolph4268 * (+39) /* Example programs utilizing EXDotSF's new features */
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04:11:13 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88691&oldid=88690 * Rudolph4268 * (-6) /* Building EXDotSF for your platform */
04:13:49 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88692&oldid=88691 * Rudolph4268 * (+4) 
04:16:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:EXDotSF]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88693 * Rudolph4268 * (+39) Create talk page for EXDotSF
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04:19:13 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88694&oldid=88692 * Rudolph4268 * (+31) 
04:28:29 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88695&oldid=88694 * Rudolph4268 * (+8) /* Running an EXDotSF program */
04:28:51 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88696&oldid=88695 * Rudolph4268 * (+15) /* Running an EXDotSF program */
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04:40:06 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88697&oldid=88696 * Rudolph4268 * (-5) Changed External Links back to Source code
05:07:35 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88698&oldid=88697 * Rudolph4268 * (-667) Moving the Building and Running sections to the GitHub repo's README
05:07:56 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88699&oldid=88698 * Rudolph4268 * (+1) /* Source code */
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05:30:39 <Corbin> https://i.imgur.com/ZrzCDt7.png Finally, a recognizeable Mandelbrot!
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05:58:23 <esolangs> [[User talk:Rudolph4268]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88700 * Rudolph4268 * (+9) Created page with "Dead air."
06:26:45 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88701&oldid=88699 * Rudolph4268 * (+103) Added a "Hello world!" example
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08:13:36 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88702&oldid=88701 * OliveIsAWord * (+4) added link to DotSF
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09:02:37 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88703&oldid=88087 * Keymaker * (+157) /* Hardware implementations */
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09:22:30 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88704&oldid=88702 * Rudolph4268 * (+436) Added 2 new sections about planned new features that have yet to be worked on and ones that are currently being implemented
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09:25:17 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88705&oldid=88704 * Rudolph4268 * (+119) /* Planned new features that are currently being worked on and implemented */
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09:41:20 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/juTWsxM.mp4
10:16:35 <nakilon> 25 vertices - up to 1s, 50 - 5s, 75 - 10s, 100 - 20s... so I assume with 200 vertices it will run 5 minutes, 300 - more than an hour, 400 - a day... meh, I wanted to find a run on 1000...
10:20:16 <nakilon> but as a byproduct I'm again thinking about making the intermediate file format for Vips; because here it's 10 times longer when I'm rendering the images; partly because every frame is being drawn from blank; instead of trying to optimize it by using intermediate frames one could use some intermediate file format that would describe the sequences
10:20:16 <nakilon> of vips operations and then you can optimize or even adjust them for different visualisation results
10:21:51 <nakilon> and of course to separate the steps of calculation and rendering
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11:28:39 <nakilon> is there any theorem on the pairs that will be definitely joined in the shortest path?
11:28:56 <nakilon> maybe the mutually closest vertices?
11:34:55 <nakilon> oh the vertex can have multiple closest neighbors
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13:11:07 <fizzie> If this is still about Hamiltonian paths, and mutually closest just means the lowest-distance edge in the graph, pretty sure that edge isn't always in the shortest path. For example in something like https://zem.fi/tmp/graph.png I don't think the unique edge A→B with weight 1 can possibly be on any valid Hamiltonian path.
13:11:54 <fizzie> (If you have a fully connected graph, just imagine all the other distances are > 8.)
13:20:18 <nakilon> but what if it's in metric space?
13:20:29 <nakilon> i.e. it can't have all other distances > 8
13:22:30 <nakilon> the shortest path on graph like yours will be top-A-B-side-bottom
13:25:06 <nakilon> oh wait, no, purple seems looks shorter
13:25:46 <nakilon> if you turn bottom one a bit to the left
13:27:07 <nakilon> ok
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13:59:46 <nakilon> I'll try my current solution on your test
14:04:16 <nakilon> heh https://i.imgur.com/VZSUcxB.png
14:06:51 <nakilon> hm neither of other ideas I imagine solve this case correctly
14:07:13 <nakilon> except the one that starts with not the shortest but with the longest
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14:10:30 <riv> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzohwKT6TNA
14:10:37 <riv> I wish this channel was called #esoteric
14:13:59 <nakilon> so you start not with multiple segments like you saw in my gif but with only one edge (the longest one) and then add vertices one by one into the segment by selecting the vertex with the largest minimal distance to already joined vertices
14:15:11 <nakilon> and if the current part if N long when joining another vertex you consider N+2 variants: attaching to either of ends and breaking into any existing edge
14:15:43 <nakilon> I imagine it should solve the fizzie's case correctly at least
14:15:54 <b_jonas> `? #esoteric
14:15:57 <HackEso> ​#esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperenchilada about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. Currently located in the Atlantis Exclusion Zone.
14:16:45 <riv> hahaha
14:17:19 <riv> how did it come up with such a brilliant explanation
14:23:49 <nakilon> I've spent a lot of time factorizing numbers in my head -- I believe the bruteforce isn't that bad as it looks like
14:24:33 <nakilon> every prime number has some almost round numbers if you multiply them by something
14:25:10 <nakilon> so you should be able to remember those to quickly subtract or add them from the number you try to divide
14:25:44 <nakilon> I suppose there can be found some effective list of such "subtractors"
14:27:10 <nakilon> \wp hyperenchilada
14:27:14 <velik> nothing was found
14:30:09 <nakilon> to find those the process of doing math in head should be somehow modelled to estimate it cost properly
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14:31:46 <nakilon> of course it's still limited to number of such helpful numbers you can remember
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16:21:48 <nakilon> I wonder if the path garaunteed to have no crossings on a plane
16:39:25 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/ug7PG8S.mp4
16:39:41 <fizzie> I turned on my drawing screen to draw another counterexample, but my whole computer froze up.
16:40:01 <fizzie> There's some weird nvidia driver bug. :/
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16:59:28 <b_jonas> fizzie: that used to happen with my old computer. the integrated intel video card sometimes froze up the whole computer when changing video modes. and it only started right after a debian version upgrade, so I believe it's a driver problem.
17:04:52 <fizzie> Hmm. Yeah, in my case it started after a driver version upgrade, but I *also* changed the monitor setup at the same time, so I don't know which one to blame.
17:07:38 <fizzie> (Always a bad idea to do more than one change at a time.)
17:08:42 <nakilon> you won't know when it's "tested long enough to know it's ok" though
17:08:47 <int-e> . o O ( never buy a new computer )
17:11:42 <fizzie> When it hangs, it's just the X process that goes into the D state, and consistently somewhere deep inside the nvidia driver code -- https://0x0.st/-gjD.txt -- so I do think it's most likely an issue with those drivers at least in some sense. I just don't know if it was something introduced in the new version, or always there and just triggered by my change in the way I'm using it.
17:12:15 <fizzie> Been wondering if I should give the open-source `nouveau` driver a try again.
17:12:29 <fizzie> They might have caught up to my no-longer-bleeding-edge hardware maybe.
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17:15:43 <fizzie> Actually, looks like this last hangup was slightly different, it also produced this into dmesg: https://0x0.st/-EfN.txt
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17:48:17 <nakilon> yay, so my idea to order photo shots based on similarity actually work
17:50:02 <nakilon> requests with some hundreds of unordered photos or images are welcome
17:55:10 <fizzie> ~/img$ find . -iname '*.jpg' | wc -l
17:55:12 <fizzie> 212592
17:55:14 <fizzie> (Not that I'm about to share them, and they're ordered to some degree anyway.)
17:56:12 <nakilon> is it an image hosting lol
18:01:48 <nakilon> I'll try on MNIST digits
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18:13:48 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/IVX4smi.mp4
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18:20:44 <nakilon> (image distance calculation via IDHash (c))
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18:33:56 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88706&oldid=88705 * Rudolph4268 * (-33) Update status for the multi-stack feature
18:38:07 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88707&oldid=88706 * Rudolph4268 * (+4) Altered the Cat program heading to link to the article
18:46:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Molten *  New user account
18:58:02 <riv> is there a "brainfuck derivative" that can somehow be interpreted as a derivative of brainfuck?
19:08:38 <imode> fancy seeing you here, riv. ;)
19:08:58 <riv> :)
19:39:44 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Creatable *  New user account
19:44:14 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88708&oldid=88673 * Creatable * (+118) /* Introductions */
19:44:54 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88709&oldid=88708 * Creatable * (+89) /* Introductions */
19:45:07 <esolangs> [[Hell.js]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88710 * Creatable * (+499) Created page with "'''Hell''' is an esoteric subset of the JavaScript programming language that uses JavaScript's built in <code>Proxy</code> feature to run code.  Hell code is identical to Java..."
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21:38:17 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88711&oldid=88707 * Rudolph4268 * (+671) Added a portion of the new mult-stack commands to the article
21:49:07 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88712&oldid=88711 * Rudolph4268 * (+746) Brought the article up to date with the current spec atm
21:51:42 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88713&oldid=88712 * Rudolph4268 * (+186) Added the Notes and considerations section
21:59:00 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88714&oldid=88713 * Rudolph4268 * (+122) Forgot to document the ` command
22:30:42 <esolangs> [[User:Rudolph4268]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88715&oldid=88675 * Rudolph4268 * (+819) Implemented my user page lol
22:31:01 <nakilon> didn't know that around my town there are almost 50'000 of "Urum" people and they speak "Urum language" that isn't even well researched https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urum_language
22:32:15 <nakilon> ethnicity that I've never even heard about but pretty much could saw them
22:32:27 <esolangs> [[User:Rudolph4268]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88716&oldid=88715 * Rudolph4268 * (+24) A little touch-up
22:34:15 <nakilon> descendants of ancient Greeks as I understand
22:34:33 <nakilon> it's insane how much people migrate through the history
22:35:43 <nakilon> if I was there now I would plan a travel to those villages and find some Urums to get to know them better
22:35:54 <nakilon> probably I'm just getting old
22:36:05 <nakilon> being interested in all this historical stuff
23:13:10 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88717&oldid=88714 * Rudolph4268 * (+0) Fixed an error in the documentation
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2021-10-11:

00:22:00 <esolangs> [[Hell.js]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88718&oldid=88710 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+78) cats
00:29:37 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88719&oldid=88643 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* H */ add
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02:43:00 <zzo38> I think there are a few deficiencies in RDF, so perhaps this one might be better:   http://sprunge.us/mwGxjM   Do you have a comment about this? I could make some changes   (Like RDF, lists of objects would probably be stored as linked lists)
02:56:14 <Corbin> I guess. You're keeping the underlying theory in mind, right? The key is triples, AKA spans. The primitive data seems decent. Are you imagining interoperating with Wikidata or other big stores?
02:57:39 <zzo38> Yes, it is the same kind of underlying idea, being triples.
02:58:30 <zzo38> About interoperating with Wikidata and others, I have not considered that, althought to do that first I would have to see what format Wikidata uses. I will look it up right now, I suppose.
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03:03:15 <zzo38> Wikidata will probably work OK with this format, as far as I can tell from what I read so far. (I haven't finished reading it.)
03:19:04 <Corbin> Is there space on the wiki for descriptions of bug classes or for design mistakes in languages? I think that there should be a nosology of language design, basically.
03:19:14 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88720&oldid=88717 * Rudolph4268 * (+262) Added the rest of the multi-stack commands
03:20:40 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88721&oldid=88720 * Rudolph4268 * (-28) Change status of the Multi-Stack commands
03:22:41 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88722&oldid=88721 * Rudolph4268 * (+70) Move the multi-stack feature status to a new section called "Completed new features"
03:31:06 <zzo38> Do you have some examples?
03:36:15 <oerjan> @wn nosology
03:36:16 <lambdabot> *** "nosology" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
03:36:16 <lambdabot> nosology
03:36:16 <lambdabot>     n 1: the branch of medical science dealing with the
03:36:16 <lambdabot>          classification of disease [syn: {nosology}, {diagnostics}]
03:48:16 <Corbin> zzo38: Famous bug classes include deferencing NULL pointers, use after free, and time-of-check vs. time-of-use.
03:49:54 <Corbin> Famous design mistakes include global scopes and omitting error management. I think I'm obligated to reference https://www.mcmillen.dev/language_checklist.html but it is well-known to be rude.
03:51:32 <Corbin> WP redirects "use after free" to "dangling pointer"; the design decision to allow dangling pointers causes the possibility of use-after-free bugs. In this way, design decisions lead to bug classes on a per-language basis.
04:07:37 <esolangs> [[Why Does This Towel Smell Different Each Time I Use It]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88723&oldid=87272 * LarhoCherqi * (+87) 
04:13:00 <keegan> good lang name
04:14:14 <keegan> I think having a NULL pointer or object (even if the language/runtime prevents it from causing undefined behavior) is widely seen as a design mistake
04:14:44 <keegan> Tony Hoare called it his "billion-dollar mistake"
04:14:56 <zzo38> I think that depending on the programming languages and on the uses, sometimes such things can help, to avoid the compiler having to check. However, it could help to have a compiler switch to tell it to check.
04:15:27 <keegan> it is better to have a Maybe/Option type, which can be used where and only where needed, and whose presence must always be accounted for
04:15:51 <keegan> I think another language design mistake is having too much implicit behavior, especially implicit conversions between different types
04:15:59 <keegan> C++ is the pinnacle of this
04:16:21 <keegan> even the simplest expression in C++ can invoke all kinds of implicit conversions defined in all sorts of different places
04:16:42 <keegan> the conversions can be convenient, but at what cost?
04:16:43 <Corbin> Yep, incorrect widening and narrowing only happen because of implicit conversions.
04:17:21 <zzo38> I think that C is still good, but that doesn't mean that other programming languages that work differently aren't good. I do think that C++ is too confusing though
04:19:17 <zzo38> Anyways, Free Hero Mesh does detect use of invalid pointers and will result in a "Attempt to use a nonexistent object" error if you try to use one (the only operations that will work on invalid pointers are assigning them to variables (or passing as arguments), testing for equality, and testing the Destroyed property (which is always true)).
04:20:00 <zzo38> (Testing for equality will always work correctly; two different objects (even if both have been freed) are still considered unequal.)
04:20:38 <zzo38> I have seen the checklist you linked to though, but now I can see again
04:22:53 <Corbin> Oh, thinking that C is good might be an obstacle to grokking the topic. Indeed, thinking that *any* language is good might be an obstacle.
04:24:17 <Corbin> The goal is to have an overall transition from language design in terms of features and inclusions to design in terms of misfeatures and bug classes.
04:26:46 <zzo38> O, OK. I do believe that no programming languages are perfect all of them have some problems. However, I also think that different programming languages can be good for different things.
04:27:11 <zzo38> But listing the misfeatures and bug classes is a valid way to mention them, so I agree you should make such list.
04:28:47 <Corbin> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cHSXziWOZ_44oSdyaKkJ-X0hTF_OhunIjgnrJ8oycss/edit# is a decent example of such a listing. It's not quite as big-picture as I'd like though.
04:40:19 <zzo38> I don't like Google Docs. Do you have a different format such as plain text? (I once figured out how to use the API to download the plain text file, although I lost it and cannot find it again.)
04:42:35 <Corbin> No, and indeed I'd like to cite this as a PDF or something more durable.
04:42:51 <Corbin> But this is the only link I've known the author to give out.
04:46:48 <zzo38> Do you know the API to download it as plain text? (I know there is one because I had used it before, but I do not remember what it is.) (PDF would work too)
04:47:03 <oerjan> . o O ( does the list contain "using Google Docs" )
04:47:34 <zzo38> Also, some programming languages are domain specific programming languages. (There might also be programming languages that would count as both general purpose and domain specific, such as PostScript.)
04:56:36 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * TheJonyMyster *  uploaded "[[File:Greg.png]]"
05:04:23 <esolangs> [[Greg]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88725 * CosmicMan08 * (+4) Greg
05:05:35 <esolangs> [[Greg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88726&oldid=88725 * TheJonyMyster * (+48) 
05:07:12 <zzo38> There is disagreement of which features you might consider to be bad; e.g. some people don't like GOTO but I think that GOTO is good (although with enough other flow controls, you will not need GOTO much)
05:12:48 <esolangs> [[Greg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88727&oldid=88726 * TheJonyMyster * (+1590) working on this dont mind me
05:14:47 <esolangs> [[Greg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88728&oldid=88727 * TheJonyMyster * (+29) 
05:18:15 <Corbin> I'm not saying whether features are good or bad; I'm saying which kinds of bugs predictably arise because of certain features.
05:31:24 <zzo38> O, OK. Many features of C can lead to bugs, but sometimes valgrind is helpful. However, programs with bugs can be written in any programming language; a program language tat necessarily avoids all of them will likely have its own problems.
06:06:36 <esolangs> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88729&oldid=88343 * Zzo38 * (+683) 
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06:44:23 <esolangs> [[Talk:EXDotSF]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88730&oldid=88693 * ArthroStar11 * (+255) /* Wow! */ new section
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07:21:22 <esolangs> [[DotSF]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88731&oldid=86440 * ArthroStar11 * (+95) Inserted link to EXDotSF
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13:00:03 <nakilon> "design mistakes in languages" -- it will never be there, the modern society mistakenly thinking that every human is a programmer would have butthurt of knowing that they favourite and the only lang they know - pithon -- consist purely of design mistakes
13:00:34 <nakilon> or I thought you are about the Wikipedia
13:01:19 <nakilon> *oh
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15:13:29 <keegan> python is fine
15:14:46 <keegan> it's not the most exciting thing but it's broadly useful and doesn't have too much stuff that's pants-on-head stupid (unlike, say, PHP)
15:15:41 <keegan> your attitude reeks of unjustified elitism
15:16:17 <keegan> and I think I've done enough "real programming" in other languages to have a perspective here
15:17:13 <keegan> I have mastered several difficult languages and I still like Python for what it is
15:17:42 <keegan> in fact it's one of the few languages I still use on a regular basis
15:18:13 <keegan> I think every job I ever had included some coding in Python, whatever the "main" language in use was
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15:32:46 <nakilon> by saying that other languages were difficult you just confirmed that the only case when people like is when they didn't yet try anything better
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15:34:18 <nakilon> the whole existence of the "Zen" highlights the fact that it's more into religion, a cult, and cults are saying that everything sucks that isn't within a cult
15:34:53 <nakilon> that makes adepts to keep eyes closed for decades
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15:36:06 <nakilon> not even saying about the contents of that "Zen" that is so full of lies and contradicts with actual principles that were used to build the language and its libraries
15:36:40 <nakilon> that contradiction teaches adepts being ignorant, practice lying to themselves and other negative personal traits
15:37:07 <nakilon> thankfully mostly harmful to themselves rather than to others
15:37:30 <nakilon> that makes little no interpersonal harm because mostly people don't care about health of others
15:37:37 <Corbin> Python has many faults, but most popular languages have many faults, so it's not special.
15:37:51 <Corbin> The politics around the CPython reference interpreter are quite toxic though.
15:37:51 <nakilon> but I look at sick people and wish they weren't like that
15:40:00 <nakilon> being stubborn makes people waste their time, and the more they waste the more they won't be able to realise that
15:40:07 <nakilon> or speak about it
15:41:40 <nakilon> for example, why don't PHP coders resist? why don't they say "fuck off with all these other fancy languages, we don't need it, all their features suck, we have everything we need for the next 1000 thousands of years"
15:42:47 <nakilon> people easily switch or expand their toolset, learn new languages and laugh at PHP saying "omg I've spent so much time in it, lmao"
15:47:03 <Corbin> This is just an angrier version of the Blub Paradox, which itself comes from thinking that we've discovered all of the different possible programming languages.
15:47:27 <Corbin> Let people injure themselves. Let people damage themselves with PHP. Let entire PHP shops run themselves into the ground. Do not trouble yourself so much.
15:48:16 <nakilon> that's a good advice
15:52:52 <nakilon> when new people in Russia come into IT and since there is not enough universities to make people come into it in a proper way it's became a standard and a rule that you don't have to learn things at all -- neither math not languages, just go forward with the most common keywords
15:57:46 <nakilon> it's even become a common understanding that actually education is not needed and those with a degree are retards who don't know what they are doing (that's partially why they have to emigrate) so when some new guy says "hmm I wanna learn coding, what should I learn?", he uses "the most popular keywords" that is for example "Yandex are the largest"
15:57:46 <nakilon> (and of course he does not know that it became the largest due to consisting of the "guys with math and diplomas" but who cares), and then he asks "what's the most common language in Yandex?" and of course since it's only a half of staff are coders the most used (not the most vital for the company that is C and its family but again who cares)
15:57:46 <nakilon> language the most common was Perl ~20 years ago and then they've switched to Python
15:59:12 <nakilon> while the world evolves even within the Russia: Delphi was replaced with C++, C#, Java, people are adopting Rust, Erlang; even some Rubyists are switching to Elixir
16:00:00 <nakilon> but inside the "big keyword company" it's obviously a huge inside inertia and most of the people on the outside don't understand how it works
16:01:37 <nakilon> also even within the big inertial company there is an inside research and practice that just don't get exposed
16:02:40 <nakilon> instead people doing not deep enough googling only get the surface knowledge that is so far from being modern, performant, etc.
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16:40:23 <esolangs> [[User:Willicoder]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88732&oldid=71587 * Willicoder * (-613) Redid my user page since I am older, and didnt really like how it put things about me. Its really short now though, so I should probably extend it more.
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18:12:07 <zzo38> Like many programming languages I think, Python has some good ideas and some bad ones, although I would agree that it isn't stupid like PHP.
18:13:49 <riv> I don't like python, i think it is bad
18:13:58 <riv> I tried to use it recently and I got annoyed
18:15:13 <zzo38> I don't really like Python much either, although I would think it isn't as bad as PHP (which is a programming language I used to use more often) (at least older versions of PHP; the newer versions I don't know)
18:23:41 <keegan> 08:32 < nakilon> by saying that other languages were difficult you just confirmed that the only case when people like is when they didn't yet try anything better
18:23:44 <keegan> huh?
18:23:47 <keegan> no, I have mastered those languages and I like them
18:23:51 <keegan> C, C++, Haskell, Rust
18:24:05 <keegan> that doesn't mean i need to hate Python out of some elitism
18:24:27 <keegan> I only mentioned those langs because you seem to think if someone likes Python then they're incapable of using "real" languages
18:24:28 <nakilon> you like python because other languages were more difficult
18:24:31 <keegan> no
18:24:43 <keegan> i like python because it's good for quickly getting things done in certain areas
18:24:50 <Corbin> Again, design decisions and bug classes are worth a focus. Python allows for stale stack frames, for example; a coroutine can pause mid-function. This leads to bugs caused by broken invariants, related to reentrancy safety.
18:24:52 <nakilon> that is the same
18:25:09 <nakilon> you call it "good, quick" because you didn't use anything better and quicker
18:25:23 <keegan> what would be a better choice for simple utility scripts and things like that
18:25:33 <keegan> I'm not going to write those in C++ or Haskell
18:25:44 <keegan> those languages have their place, I'm not complaining that they're "too hard"
18:26:02 <Corbin> The `ctypes` module directly leads to segfaults. If that module and also the ability to create code objects from bytestrings were removed, then Python could no longer segfault (except from implementation bugs, of course!)
18:26:49 <keegan> if I need to do some simple text data munging, file manipulation, etc. then I can accomplish that task and move on with my day much quicker if I use Python
18:26:55 <nakilon> Corbin Matz has already deprecated one similar feature from Ruby and is currently disliking the callcc and would like to deprecate it too, and there is an opinion that people don't use them much anyway
18:27:48 <Corbin> nakilon: An example bug in Ruby is the bareword handling in the parser, which creates the bug class where it's hard to tell whether an identifier is going to call a method when mentioned.
18:28:06 <Corbin> I shouldn't say "example bug", but "example design decision", since that's the point I'm trying to make.
18:28:32 <keegan> I guess I'm not a real programmer unless I code everything in assembly, right
18:28:37 <keegan> people like you just want someone to look down on
18:29:17 <nakilon> Corbin in >99% cases it's the same trivial to understand what's gonna be called as remembering the arithmetic operator precedence -- you don't dislike that we are all assuming that * is higher than + in C, right?
18:30:02 <nakilon> yes, there are some cases in Ruby of being "tricky" but you'll face them only after years and only if you don't follow the "good practices" that are adopted by most of coders (not me though)
18:30:36 <nakilon> I mean those cases are pretty rare, people don't tend to reach them
18:30:51 <Corbin> nakilon: Unary or binary? (And *that* design decision leads to a surprising bug class; in e.g. C++ the parser used to need a lot of time to figure out whether certain symbols were operators or structural boilerplate.)
18:31:02 <keegan> the fact that I've done linux kernel programming, high performance parallel systems code, embedded development etc in all these "real languages" doesn't count for anything... as soon as i touch 1 line of python it makes me a wimp
18:31:06 <keegan> lol
18:31:08 <keegan> go fuck yourself
18:31:22 <keegan> done with you shitting up this channel
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18:31:30 <Corbin> I don't believe in good practices, sorry; I mostly don't believe that there's such a thing as good code, nor people who reliably write only good code.
18:32:10 <nakilon> lol
18:34:44 <nakilon> Corbin I don't call that standard "good", it's just the most adopted, and is used in Rails because Rails projects teams are often filled with junior developers and they need something to stop them; on the other side in Google there is another standard, and they skip () a lot
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18:35:18 <nakilon> the Rails standard has own pieces that provoke bugs
18:35:29 <nakilon> people can bug anything ..D
18:37:12 <nakilon> basically any ruby code style is forcing you do discard most of the language features and stick to something
18:39:07 <nakilon> for example, AFAIK in Go there is some built-in linter, and in Ruby they made a gem "rubocop" that cries about some "bad styling" -- people add the rubocop to a project "to make code easier to maintain" but in fact start wasting a ton of time on pleasing this linter
18:40:11 <nakilon> the default rules in it are crazy so then people build a multiple pages long "config" for it to make it skip specific pieces of your code
18:42:57 <nakilon> Corbin you might say that in Ruby the ability to use "{ }" instead of "do end" is a bad idea; because it has another precedence that has some _minimal_ but yet existing probability to cause a bug
18:44:04 <nakilon> but at least itself the feature wasn't added randomly and is making the code more comprehensive in the first place
18:45:11 <nakilon> but then as coding in C you learn that * has higher precedence than +, in the same way coding in Ruby you learn that "{ }" have higher precedence than "do end" and the "problem" is gone
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18:51:07 <zzo38> I think that features are not necessarily a bad idea just because they might cause a bug.
18:55:01 <zzo38> A good design might be you have enough ropes to hang yourself and also a few more just in case.
18:55:25 <nakilon> on topic of the examples of bad features: Ruby allowed to pass both args and kwargs with just *
18:55:43 <nakilon> and in recent versions it was deprecated -- now kwargs need **
18:56:59 <nakilon> this is the biggest recent change that broke a lot of gems where authors though "oh how cool, I can pass everything with just single *, let's do golf" that is in my opinion was a bad idea in the first place
18:57:27 <nakilon> I mean that was their fault
19:02:38 <Corbin> zzo38: Not just a single bug, but an entire class of bugs. That's the key feature here; each misfeature is weighed so heavily because it creates uncountable opportunities for bugs.
19:07:11 <zzo38> I also think that different programming languages will be good for different purposes. I don't always use the same programming language for all programs, either, and some other programmers, too
19:10:58 <nakilon> I would use Mathematica more if it was free
19:12:46 <nakilon> just imagine that instead of spending two days to making own "shortest Hamilton path" I would just call one function or two...
19:12:51 <nakilon> *on making
19:15:37 <nakilon> though it's rather about the toolkit than about language features
19:35:23 <zzo38> Although features of programming languages can be used badly, that doesn't mean it can't be used in the good way too, or used not at all. Perhaps that can also be a idea: if a feature seems that it would result too many bugs when used, try to design it so that the feature is optional and shouldn't be needed much.
19:39:56 <zzo38> The example of "Ruby allowed to pass both args and kwargs with just *" seems to be another kind of problem, which is if things are changed that causes things to stop working.
20:09:57 <Corbin> nakilon: Great example of a trash-tier language with a great library. The language itself, Wolfram, is a boring term-rewriting language which TBH is comparable to Thue in terms of blandness.
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20:47:20 <nakilon> Corbin what do you find to be bad in the language?
20:47:54 <b_jonas> Corbin said bland, not bad
20:48:07 <b_jonas> it's much better than Maple's hodge-podge domain-specific nonsense
20:48:13 <nakilon> I only have problems with passing arguments, like... when I was trying to draw graphs recently when you pass those style options it appears that they stop working when I change the order
20:48:35 <b_jonas> at least Mathematica is consistent about its weak typedness
20:48:50 <nakilon> instead it would be better if it was saying "dude, you passed something wrongly" but it produces the graph image, just not properly stylized
20:49:02 <b_jonas> you can index almost any term, and accidentally do list operations on it even if it's not a list, it's a great way to shoot yourself into the foot
20:49:13 <b_jonas> in Maple there's no one way to mess up with any input, in Mathematica there is
20:49:22 <b_jonas> I have to admire that kind of consistency
20:49:33 <nakilon> but I like the syntax  -- all these abilities around wrapping and rolling out the functions, arguments
20:51:33 <nakilon> and the concept of functions to have a property to be "Listable"
20:53:01 <nakilon> that when you apply a function to something if this something is a list the function is applies to each element, repeating recursively
20:54:22 <nakilon> Listable and Orderless -- I don't remember if this is official names or I made it up when I was porting these features https://github.com/Nakilon/mll/blob/dece915f19017b4f6ddf477a5a49a5578dd5a74b/lib/mll.rb#L282-L328
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21:37:49 <esolangs> [[Greg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88733&oldid=88728 * TheJonyMyster * (+632) 
21:38:50 <esolangs> [[Greg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88734&oldid=88733 * TheJonyMyster * (+839) 
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21:55:47 <esolangs> [[Greg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88735&oldid=88734 * TheJonyMyster * (+40) 
21:56:53 <esolangs> [[DotSF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88736&oldid=88731 * ArthroStar11 * (-140) updated link to interpreter
21:57:45 <b_jonas> you know when they used to call 640x480 resolution VTA, and 1280x720 HD and 1920x1080 "full HD"? apparently whoever invents these abbreviations can't stop, and now the resolution list of an online store has these preposterous names: "1600x1200 (UXGA), 1920x1200 (WUXGA), 2560x1080 (UW-UXGA), 2560x1440 (WQHD), 2560x1600 (WQXGA), 3440x1440 (UW-QHD), 3840x1600 (WQHD+), 3840x2160 (4K UHD), 5120x1400 (DQHD), 
21:57:51 <b_jonas> 5120x2160 (WUHD)"
21:59:41 <b_jonas> it's like the animal group lists
21:59:42 <arseniiv> like wut but wuhd?
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22:01:53 <b_jonas> people are stupid, they don't understand numbers, but if we put rare letters like Q and X in the name then they'll know it's a good monitor
22:02:48 <esolangs> [[User:ArthroStar11]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88737&oldid=88488 * ArthroStar11 * (+316) Updated link to DotSF and provided description of my current project
22:03:21 <b_jonas> it's a small wonder there's no seven or eight letter one yet, to get the bonus 50 score besides the triple word Q 
22:05:28 <b_jonas> although I guess you could get the 50 if you like already have UXGA on the boadr and add a W at the beginning. but then how will you get a triple Q?
22:05:45 <b_jonas> oh, maybe if you put the Q between a W and XGA, if XGA is already a resolution
22:06:08 <b_jonas> yeah, XGA exists
22:07:16 <b_jonas> so put W and XGA with one gap on the top row, with the top middle triple word score square in between, and add a long word starting with Q downwards in between. is there a letter that goes before U and after W so the W isn't alone?
22:08:32 <nakilon> people mainly use words "full hd" and "4k" and that's it
22:08:51 <b_jonas> of course Intel manuals have invented quadruple quadwords (that's 32 bytes), in case you want more "q"s
22:08:54 <nakilon> not that they know how much is that
22:09:45 <esolangs> [[Greg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88738&oldid=88735 * TheJonyMyster * (+1522) 
22:10:05 <esolangs> [[Greg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88739&oldid=88738 * TheJonyMyster * (+1) /* search stuff */
22:10:51 <fizzie> I thought 2560x1440 was just QHD, not WQHD.
22:10:58 <fizzie> Because HD is implicitly W.
22:11:03 <nakilon> they could call them like iphones: 6, 7, 8, X
22:11:08 <esolangs> [[Greg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88740&oldid=88739 * TheJonyMyster * (+3158) i pormise ill fix it
22:11:24 <b_jonas> fizzie: there's probably more than one list with different abbreviations
22:11:56 <b_jonas> this is what one online store gives, it may or may not be the shop where I'll buy my monitor
22:12:01 <b_jonas> haven't ordered yet but will have to do so soon
22:12:04 <b_jonas> because this monitor will die
22:12:06 <nakilon> I thought Q is the same as 4k, because it means four -- when I started seeing that people don't use these words in the same way I just stopped caring
22:12:23 <b_jonas> what? no, Q means 10 points base
22:12:30 <nakilon> what?
22:12:42 <b_jonas> it's the letter that's worth the highest score, 10 points
22:12:46 <b_jonas> without modifiers
22:13:06 <fizzie> In those names, Q<x> means twice the width and height (so four times the pixels) of <x>.
22:13:26 <b_jonas> Z is also worth 10 points but is apparently not in any resolution
22:13:33 <b_jonas> ... yet
22:14:18 <nakilon> but then why WQHD not QHD
22:14:36 <b_jonas> dunno, that's just what this list gave, unless I made a typo
22:14:36 <fizzie> I think that's just from a bit of ambiguity.
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22:14:52 <fizzie> Because W = 16:9, and it's true that HD and QHD are both W. It's just a silent W.
22:15:39 <fizzie> I entirely agree the names are ridiculous though. And I don't quite see what makes QWXGA different from WQXGA with that logic, but different they are.
22:16:26 <b_jonas> fizzie: if W means 16:9 then why is 1920x1200 "WUXGA"?
22:17:04 <fizzie> Hmm. I guess maybe W then just means > 4:3? 
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22:17:08 <nakilon> heh, every time when someone asks me what's my resolution and I answer: 2560x1440... they want to interrupt me and say "wtf dude just say some letter I don't get it"
22:17:45 <nakilon> because they wanna hear "full hd" or "4k" and won't understand the WQHD anyway though
22:18:08 <fizzie> WQSXGA (Wide Quad Super Extended Graphics Array) is what you use to play Super Street Fighter II Turbo on.
22:19:24 <nakilon> when will we finally stop care? I almost not see pixels anymore
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22:20:47 <nakilon> it would still be important to know exactly to chose the proper resolution in game that would divide and not get blurry but people mostly don't care anyway
22:21:17 <b_jonas> well it's likely that my new monitor will be 2560x1400 resolution, because they're more available than 1920x1200 resolution right now, and I don't want to downgrade to 1080 vertical resolution anymore
22:21:29 <b_jonas> I'm so used to the 1200 vertical resolution of the current monitor
22:21:51 <nakilon> also today videocard drivers are also doing some stuff for scaling, blurring, sharpening...
22:22:09 <b_jonas> I used to use a 1080 pixel tall one but that was many years ago
22:22:25 <fizzie> I went from 1920x1200 to 2560x1440 too.
22:22:42 <b_jonas> though I might need to make a new font then, the 20 pixel tall will be too tiny for it
22:22:58 <fizzie> I guess 2560x1600 isn't really a thing.
22:23:26 <b_jonas> I need a 24 pixel tall one I guess
22:24:22 <nakilon> do you need pixel font?
22:24:44 <b_jonas> technically no, but bitmap font is easier for me to draw
22:24:47 <b_jonas> `? font
22:24:50 <HackEso> ​#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/
22:24:51 <b_jonas> ^ that's my current one
22:24:58 <b_jonas> it's also missing too many useful characters
22:25:46 <nakilon> omg guys you have own fonts
22:25:57 <nakilon> the geekiest thing I've seen in last months
22:26:46 <fizzie> My font isn't *really* meant for general use, I just drew it for rfk86 and then people were sharing their bitmap fonts around so I thought I'd mention mine.
22:27:09 <nakilon> back in 2007 I wanted to make some font, compact like in OpenTTD, to draw plots and stuff
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22:27:39 <FireFly> I forget how to sed a factoid, but that URL could be updated to https://firefly.nu/up/fonts/
22:27:58 <FireFly> although it seems a bit broken rn anyway... I should fix that
22:28:03 <FireFly> not tonight though
22:28:09 <fizzie> I forget all those commands too. Is it slwd? Maybe.
22:28:11 <fizzie> `? slwd
22:28:13 <HackEso> ​`slwd <wisdom name>//<sed script>
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22:28:45 <fizzie> `slwd font//s|http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/|https://firefly.nu/up/fonts/|
22:28:47 <HackEso> font//#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts https://firefly.nu/up/fonts/
22:28:59 <FireFly> kiitos
22:29:28 <nakilon> there was some program on Spectrum that allowed to type text narrower than 1 cell
22:29:52 <nakilon> like something for printing books
22:31:37 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, it started with both oren and ligthrasiir sharing these fonts with like HUGE character coverage, even if you don't count all the hangul syllables, but they're all 16 px tall which is too small for me
22:32:12 <b_jonas> and I made one for me a long time ago, but didn't add enough characters, so it's missing some important math ones plus even the most basic cyrillic ones
22:33:25 <b_jonas> admittedly lifthrasiir's has this subpixel thing where each pixel may be half-filled
22:33:36 <b_jonas> or something of that sort, I don't quite understand
22:34:18 <b_jonas> while oren's ha like thousands of kanji
22:35:10 <b_jonas> I mean I understand how you go there, you want to add just the kana and two hundred of the most basic kanji, but then get carried away and can't stop
22:35:16 <b_jonas> but still it's impressive
22:36:27 <b_jonas> just shy of 2000 kanji apparently
22:36:54 <b_jonas> but I don't really like its grahpics style, even aside from being only 16 px tall
22:37:57 <nakilon> are we able to judge hieroglyphs?
22:40:15 <nakilon> btw, I remember my IRC client supports font per channel; so I've configured Quakenet to use Quake font
22:41:04 <nakilon> didn't visit it for a while though
22:44:00 <fizzie> I used to have the Descent font in DOS. Hmm, I wonder how those DOS font things worked, actually. I guess you twiddle some VGA registers to point at some modifiable video memory where you've put the bitmaps... I just remember they were always distributed as .com files.
22:45:20 <b_jonas> fizzie: I do have a custom one written in assembly if that helps
22:45:33 <b_jonas> with assembly source code
22:46:03 <fizzie> I don't think I'm *that* curious.
22:47:39 <b_jonas> on Linux console you just call an ioctl and the kernel handles the details for you; I have the magic incantations for X11 too
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23:35:27 <nakilon> does swap on linux need fast disk?
23:36:29 <nakilon> I mean is it used for the least accessed memory or just any kind?
23:39:34 <fizzie> It's definitely *supposed* to be used for the things needed the least, I don't know how close to the ideal it gets on that.
23:39:42 <fizzie> A healthy system doesn't swap under normal circumstances.
23:55:42 <esolangs> [[Greg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88741&oldid=88740 * TheJonyMyster * (+167) 
23:56:33 <esolangs> [[Greg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88742&oldid=88741 * TheJonyMyster * (+0) 

2021-10-12:

00:07:23 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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00:25:33 <oerjan> ^echo rev
00:25:33 <fungot> rev rev
00:25:36 <oerjan> oops
00:25:45 <oerjan> ^show rev
00:25:45 <fungot> >,[>,]<[.<]
00:27:33 <b_jonas> and even the least accessed memory might be accessed too much if you have too little RAM
00:27:42 <b_jonas> there's only so much that swap can help
00:29:58 <b_jonas> if you have different speeds of disk, I certainly recommend putting swap on the fastest one, so an SSD on M2 port if available
00:30:43 <b_jonas> (in my spiffy new machine it's on an SSD on M2 port, but I also have enough RAM that the swap is almost never used
00:30:53 <b_jonas> )
00:31:52 <b_jonas> I guess I should get back to that round integer puzzle, because I should be able to fill any amount of RAM trying to compute that
00:35:00 <oerjan> hm a spam purporting to be from a company i actually _do_ pay bills to.  fiendish.
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00:35:53 <oerjan> (but since the real mails about those bills actually come via the bank, fruitless).
00:38:15 <b_jonas> oerjan: well sure, I get spam in the name of more banks and telephone/internet providers than I've ever been in real contact with, 
00:38:36 <oerjan> yep.  this time it was a telephone provider
00:38:38 <b_jonas> plus also in the name of ebay and paypal and I think even the tax agency 
00:38:59 <oerjan> oh and it was in norwegian so i was actually fooled for a few seconds.
00:39:13 <b_jonas> it's not hard to guess in a way that some of the spam match my actual contacts
00:40:31 <oerjan> true.  but i guess nvg's spam filter catches most of them for me.
00:40:46 <b_jonas> though the largest amount that I get right now are the ones that try to claim that my email server will stop delivering emails to my inbox if I don't confirm my personal details, and/or they have already stopped delivering but I can get the emails that are on hold if I confirm my personal details, and/or the password is going to expire or I'm over the quota or whatever
00:40:57 <b_jonas> and I have a large variety of these in different formats, which is funny
00:41:15 <b_jonas> they're all "last warning" and "you have a day", for months now
00:41:23 <oerjan> oh i get those.  but since my actual email provider is a small computer club, those don't have a chance of fooling me.
00:42:17 <b_jonas> you would think sending so many last warnings about the same thing is pointless
00:42:27 <b_jonas> I mean who's going to pay attention to the tenth one?
00:42:34 <oerjan> well i suppose some of them try to claim to be from the club, but usually in english.
00:43:02 <oerjan> b_jonas: standard "it's not meant to catch smart people" reply
00:43:12 <b_jonas> yeah
00:44:04 <b_jonas> the real target for these kinds of spam is my grandmother, not me
00:44:34 <b_jonas> (not the ones sent to my email address with my name, obviously)
00:45:09 <b_jonas> (they think I'm a time-traveler and my own grandmother)
00:47:44 <nakilon> hm, "sudo mount -a" says "mount point does not exist." so I mkdir it, then I run it and then lsblk does not show the device is being mounted
00:47:50 <oerjan> are you _sure_ you're not?  strange things happen to people's gender is this channel.
00:48:01 <nakilon> and findmnt does not show the dir to be a mounted disk too
00:49:53 <nakilon> velik what's your gender?
00:50:07 <velik>  I now sat your plan
00:50:22 <nakilon> velik don't sit my plan pls
00:50:35 <velik>  yep, the christmas was some, when with nmero takes back
00:51:04 <nakilon> also umount confirms that it's not mounted
00:53:22 <b_jonas> oerjan: I'm not sure, but I very much hope that I'm not my grandmother. that would suck.
00:54:33 <b_jonas> oerjan: also I'm now old enough that I have photos of her in my age, including wedding photos
00:54:53 <nakilon> how is this even possible https://dpaste.org/9zEr/slim
00:55:04 <b_jonas> but I know that's not a very strong proof, the photos need not depict what they claim to
00:58:00 <oerjan> i guess strange things would have to happen to your age too.
01:03:52 <oerjan> lots to skip in the logs today
01:19:02 <shachaf> `smlist 532
01:19:03 <HackEso> smlist 532: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
01:21:37 <esolangs> [[TEPCS]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88743&oldid=58356 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+815) Reformulated the list of commands, formatted code portions as source code, and inserted a missing exclamation mark in the example program 99 bottles of beer.
01:23:59 <esolangs> [[TEPCS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88744&oldid=88743 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+35) Formatted some inputs (arguments), hitherto erroneously lapsed, in italic.
01:25:27 <esolangs> [[TEPCS]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88745&oldid=88744 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+25) Tagged this page with the category Output only.
01:29:11 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck self-interpreter]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88746&oldid=73130 * Oerjan * (+8) Turn empty page into redirect
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02:11:47 <nakilon> so for some reason it's impossible to mount anything to a path that was used previously for a swap disk
02:11:54 <nakilon> so I mounted it as swap2 ..D
02:18:02 <oerjan> . o O ( maybe there's still something swapped out to it )
02:33:23 <oerjan> hmph i have defined a table that isn't on OEIS, but it has it if i only use the columns at power of 2 positions https://oeis.org/A098539
02:34:31 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88747&oldid=88682 * PixelatedStarfish * (+105) 
02:34:50 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88748&oldid=88747 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2) /* External Links */
02:35:10 <oerjan> (column 3 in my table starts 1,6,42,406,5866,133910,5034218,321429270,35668066538,7000281120534 and there's only one (irrelevant) OEIS hit that contains 406 and 5866)
02:35:16 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88749&oldid=88748 * PixelatedStarfish * (+3) /* External Links */
02:36:21 <esolangs> [[Starstuff]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88750&oldid=88537 * PixelatedStarfish * (+105) /* Decimal Compiler */
02:37:13 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88751&oldid=88596 * PixelatedStarfish * (+3) 
02:38:09 <oerjan> except A098539 also contains an extra column that would be 1/2 in my table :P
02:38:29 <oerjan> well it's square doesn't, by definition.
02:38:31 <oerjan> *its
02:40:14 <oerjan> oh hm maybe there is a way to see the connection
02:41:34 <fizzie> You mount swap disks to a path? Never heard of anything like that.
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02:45:19 <nakilon> oerjan it was after swapoff and all zeroes in free and empty proc
02:46:58 <nakilon> fizzie I mount a disk like a usual disk to then define swapfile in it or use in any another way
02:47:20 <fizzie> Okay, well. I guess you can do that.
02:48:07 <fizzie> Just sounds odd to insert a useless filesystem abstraction in the way if you don't have anything else in that filesystem except a swap file.
02:48:19 <nakilon> maybe
02:48:32 <nakilon> I came up to this historically
02:49:09 <nakilon> maybe I'll use the disk for anything else at the same time in future
02:50:56 <fizzie> Swap devices are supposedly more performant than swap files. No idea if that *actually* matters in practice though.
02:50:59 <fizzie> Files are definitely more flexible, I just wasn't expecting the disk then need to be mounted for swap purposes because if it has other uses, it'd have already been mounted for that.
02:52:02 <nakilon> https://serverfault.com/q/25653/67097
02:55:38 <esolangs> [[Greg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88752&oldid=88742 * TheJonyMyster * (+26) 
02:59:35 <fizzie> I used to always set up an LVM thing because "maybe I'll need to reshuffle the way the disk is partitioned or create snapshots or something, and then it'll be convenient", and then I never ever did any of those things.
02:59:53 <nakilon> maybe there is something more to run to really-really disable swap to make the path mountable again
03:00:03 <nakilon> but guys on #linux didn't know, so I just used another path
03:01:33 <nakilon> I remember the time when I had about 10 partitions on Windows, and they were all different, the stuff was compilcated
03:02:07 <nakilon> there were so many details and combinations that limit you in the way of size and numbers of volumes/partitions
03:02:49 <nakilon> and today I just have disk C for one drive and D for a another one
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03:48:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Ferrisfox *  New user account
04:03:43 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88753&oldid=88709 * Ferrisfox * (+252) 
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04:54:01 <esolangs> [[Tarski]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88754&oldid=80437 * Ferrisfox * (+141) Added a Quine and Truth Machine to examples
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05:14:34 <esolangs> [[9f87m4atttaaaou;]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88755&oldid=87370 * CosmicMan08 * (+95) 
05:15:18 <esolangs> [[9f87m4atttaaaou;]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88756&oldid=88755 * CosmicMan08 * (-5) 
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06:42:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Sink *  New user account
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06:59:54 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88757&oldid=88753 * Sink * (+155) 
07:00:02 <esolangs> [[Hell.js]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88758&oldid=88718 * Sink * (+667) added samples, etc
07:00:59 <esolangs> [[Hell.js]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88759&oldid=88758 * Sink * (+0) i am not clever
07:23:31 <esolangs> [[Hell.js]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88760&oldid=88759 * Sink * (-116) 
07:39:14 <riv> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-97RhAZhXI game of life but kind of a fluid?
07:43:48 <b_jonas> I prefer swap partitions. Why make the kernel developers' job more difficult where they have to implement file system drivers in a way that they can be called from any weird context where you'd swap something? And why risk your undefined behavior on them doing that correctly? Swap partitions are better. The only reason not to use them is if you have something like Windows that doesn't support them.
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09:10:18 <oliv79> uwu
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09:18:23 <esolangs> [[TEPCS]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88761&oldid=88745 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+193) Supplemented a description of the second input in a loop command.
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11:29:00 <esolangs> [[Hell.js]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88762&oldid=88760 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-7) /* Sample Programs */ remove extra line
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13:28:54 <esolangs> [[Greg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88763&oldid=88752 * TheJonyMyster * (-532) 
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14:55:07 <esolangs> [[Senpai]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88764&oldid=88604 * 4gboframram * (+52) /* External Resources */
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15:52:20 <nakilon> riv cool! it now need some materia/energy preservation
15:57:10 <nakilon> anyone familiar with configuring the rrdtool?
16:03:11 <esolangs> [[Trivial brainfuck substitution]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88765&oldid=87925 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+192) Added !!Fuck to the list of examples.
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16:47:50 <int-e> Does Unicode have a (non-breaking, ideally) space with matched width for box drawing? 
16:55:19 <nakilon> does unicode define width?
16:56:21 <earendel> you mean like &nbsp; but same size as space(bar)
16:56:25 <earendel> ?
16:57:26 <fizzie> int-e: U+2588 FULL BLOCK + extra-Unicode mechanisms to invert colors? ;)
16:58:13 <int-e> eww
16:58:24 <int-e> eryes, like that
16:58:41 <fizzie> I've seen many many broken line-drawing pictures I feel like there can't be a dedicated space of the right size.
16:58:44 <int-e> earendel: yes, like that
16:59:13 <nakilon> IMHO the width is a responsibility of a font
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16:59:46 <int-e> `unidecode  
16:59:48 <HackEso> ​[U+2007 FIGURE SPACE]
16:59:58 <int-e> (I suspect that one is probably too narrow in practice)
17:00:17 <int-e> (Because it's specified as the same width as *digits* in fonts where digits have fixed width)
17:00:23 <fizzie> Hmm, "space equal to tabular width of a font", "this is equivalent to the digit width of fonts with fixed-width digits".
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17:01:14 <int-e> So that leaves the usual em-wide space stuff but the width of the box drawing characters seems to be completely unspecified so that doesn't help either
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17:05:19 <fizzie> Heh, there's a very nice alignment test at the bottom of https://www.w3.org/2001/06/utf-8-test/UTF-8-demo.html :)
17:05:58 <fizzie> (It's just using the regular space, so it breaks in many browser/font combinations, apparently.)
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17:08:58 <nakilon> seems to be one pixel off https://i.imgur.com/EoQJWMa.png
17:10:11 <int-e> ah but that's supposed to use a fixed width font (default for <pre>)
17:10:46 <nakilon> fine in safari too but all broken in firefox https://i.imgur.com/nOiSCEg.png
17:10:47 <int-e> it's mostly fine here except there are 1px gaps between lines which look ugly.
17:10:58 <int-e> but at least it's all properly aligned
17:13:01 <int-e> (hmm there is a bit of jumping around at different scales)
17:13:28 <int-e> the gaps are probably just hinting artefacts
17:14:59 <nakilon> and perfectly aligned in Sublime Text https://i.imgur.com/ueI6S5g.png where ir's probably Andale Mono
17:14:59 <fizzie> Yeah, turns out "fixed width" isn't always so fixed. :)
17:16:02 <nakilon> and with Menlo in Terminal
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17:49:34 <esolangs> [[Greg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88766&oldid=88763 * TheJonyMyster * (+45) /* search stuff */
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18:04:28 <int-e> fizzie: Sure, but at least /in theory/ any of the half-width spaces should align with the box drawing then
18:04:55 <int-e> while for proportional fonts all bets are off
18:05:39 <int-e> (I love how "full width" is twice the usual character size)
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18:07:29 <foxsouns> nakilon: ive updated the readme and comments to be more informative, and reformatted to account for the stupid broken replit thing
18:08:19 <nakilon> foxsouns you are still with no good machine?
18:08:44 <foxsouns> yeah. i wish i had a real one >:(
18:08:59 <foxsouns> but whatever ill make do till then
18:09:00 <int-e> Oh, who has ever seen a full height 5 1/4" device :) (I've seen *one*... it was a 70MB HDD)
18:09:29 <foxsouns> you might be able to run dos on that
18:09:38 <int-e> It broke
18:09:42 <foxsouns> rip
18:10:39 <int-e> But when it was alive it had MS DOS and maybe Windows 3.0? Maybe that was later...
18:10:43 <fizzie> I've seen one, but I don't think I've ever "had" one.
18:10:51 <fizzie> I think the HDD we had around that era was a half-height drive with 40MB of storage.
18:11:07 <int-e> When it broke it did that in a most ridiculous way too.
18:11:10 <foxsouns> smallest "drive" ive ever had is a 1gb standard size sd card
18:11:19 <fizzie> Still too big for one partition though. Had to split it to 32MB C: and an 8MB D: partitions.
18:11:45 <int-e> One of the (MFM) address lines broke so it had tons of aliased sectors.
18:11:54 <foxsouns> smallest hdd ive dealt with was a 30gb in a 2001 laptop
18:12:06 <int-e> To great effect on "disk repair" tools.
18:13:07 <int-e> They just don't make hardware that way anymore ;)_
18:13:10 <fizzie> Also, DoubleSpace.
18:13:30 <int-e> I think I stayed away from DoubleSpace.
18:13:42 <int-e> But I do remember the concept.
18:13:53 <fizzie> I didn't know you're not supposed to compress your Windows 3.1 system partition, so I went ahead and did it on the C: drive, and it just broke.
18:14:20 <fizzie> Windows only got as far as the start-up logo, then a chunk got eaten out of it and it just hung.
18:14:24 <foxsouns> dang
18:14:35 <nakilon> you wasn't supposed to compress it using a high pressure air chamber
18:14:45 <int-e> I have used compressed file systems... because of Knoppix :P
18:15:13 <foxsouns> im spoiled, oldest os ive used was 2000
18:15:16 <int-e> (and I guess initrd, technically)
18:15:43 <foxsouns> and i think puppy at one point
18:16:05 <int-e> let's be realistic: s/spoiled/young/
18:16:30 <foxsouns> basically
18:16:44 <int-e> (old systems did have their own charm btw... you could understand them)
18:16:52 <foxsouns> haha yeah
18:17:11 <foxsouns> hate the ambiguity of modern windows
18:18:25 <int-e> nowadays you have to look at some really small embedded device (about the size of an arduino) to get that same feeling.
18:18:30 <foxsouns> if i had a proper system for it id probably run gentoo, but ive been stuck up till now without a system, and when i did have one it only had 4gb ram and a 1.6ghz proscessor
18:18:31 <zzo38> I invented a encoding that the width is defined (as well as simple to calculate), so hopefully that is better for a purpose where you need to render fix pitch text into a grid display. Not all of the characters are defined, but once they are that only requires providing a font; width calculation and terminal emulators and other programs do not need to change (except ones that convert encodings).
18:18:50 <foxsouns> int-e: pi0, maybe
18:18:58 <int-e> yeah, maybe
18:19:17 <foxsouns> the pico, but thats not really a computer
18:19:22 <nakilon> just some 12 years ago I used hard drive that sounded differently on different volumes so when I was in another room trying to sleep and I heard a HDD noise I could realise 'that's gonna be ICQ message' before the notification sound plays
18:19:23 <foxsouns> well, not a modern one
18:19:31 <foxsouns> haha
18:19:32 <zzo38> It will not be suitable for other purposes, but I think that is acceptable since no character encoding will ever be suitable for all uses.
18:20:20 <nakilon> basically I heard every activity and knew when computer is doing something that it's not supposed to, so no background crap could waste my resources or hide itself
18:20:51 <zzo38> A code page number can be assigned, and a escape code to select by code page numbers if you need to change the selection
18:20:56 <fizzie> int-e: I don't know, I've been fiddling on an ESP32 microcontroller lately, it's running FreeRTOS and this chunky Espressif SDK with a wifi stack, I don't really have a feeling of understanding it. ;)
18:21:19 <int-e> fizzie: not small enough :)
18:21:36 <fizzie> Yeah, I think it's just that I wanted it to do wifi.
18:22:25 <nakilon> I should patent a retrodevice
18:23:17 <nakilon> a thingy with a speaker that you attach to USB and it starts intercepting SSD operations and emulate the HDD sound
18:23:24 <zzo38> (But if you want to display box drawing in a terminal emulator, the VT100 codes for box drawing can be used if they are suitable)
18:23:31 <foxsouns> i kinda want a built-for-linux laptop, support the community and shit
18:23:49 <foxsouns> nakilon: haha yeah id buy that
18:23:52 <zzo38> I think I had used disk compression on DOS before but only because the computer came with that feature already enabled
18:25:22 <foxsouns> wish linux for arm would come along quicker :<
18:26:23 <fizzie> nakilon: Can you also have it monitor the wifi/ethernet interfaces and make the modem sounds at appropriate times? 
18:26:35 <nakilon> hehe
18:26:47 <nakilon> also it can be a software probably, not need of USB plug
18:27:40 <zzo38> It depend how well the software in the computer can be trusted to not change is one thing
18:27:42 <nakilon> fizzie it can be a browser extension probably
18:28:05 <foxsouns> zzo38: linux kernel module :)
18:28:27 <zzo38> The browser will not be the only program which accesses the internet
18:28:50 <zzo38> Linux kernel module could work, yes, although it will then use up memory and CPU time
18:29:25 <zzo38> I dislike USB though, I think USB is a bad idea
18:29:32 <nakilon> it can be a service with plugins sending the signals from any kind of programs
18:29:48 <zzo38> (although maybe it could have be better designed)
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18:30:04 <foxsouns> please dont make it systemd only
18:30:14 <foxsouns> lol
18:30:57 <zzo38> I don't like systemd either, but a lot of people don't like systemd, it is full of many problems. If I would upgrade my system it would have to be to one without systemd.
18:31:06 <nakilon> "USB is a bad idea" -- but it makes a content for kickstarter video
18:31:15 <nakilon> people love physical stuff
18:31:32 <foxsouns> zzo38: devuan and artixlinux
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18:33:35 <foxsouns> zzo38: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Linux_distributions_without_systemd
18:34:12 <zzo38> No, I mean USB is badly designed, I don't mean physical hardware cannot be used. For one thing, it doesn't identify by which port it is connected to, another is needing identification by vendor codes (protocol identification would be better, although it does that too), and many other design problems. USB can be OK for providing power for some kinds of devices, though
18:34:24 <zzo38> foxsouns: OK thank you I will look
18:35:05 <foxsouns> devuan and artix are debian and arch w/ other init options, and are the main two i think of, and that page has others
18:36:29 <nakilon> what do you mean "by which port"? pretty sure I found which port I connect the speaker to just few weeks ago
18:37:05 <foxsouns> usb isnt consistent across systems, and sometimes across poweroffs
18:37:31 <nakilon> at least on Windows there is some .cpl that showed me the name of the device or something, that it's connected to "USB #5"
18:38:50 <foxsouns> then thats the 5th usb that got to the kernel, whether or not thats consistent is up to the operating system
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18:42:27 <int-e> I don't even get stable sda/sdb anymore (both are builtin devices)
18:42:32 <foxsouns> i would say a service (openrc and runit are the most popular non-systemd ones) or a kernel module would be the easiest way to do so software-wise, and on linux
18:43:00 <foxsouns> i have no idea how to do so on windows though
18:43:09 <foxsouns> software wise
18:59:07 <zzo38> I also dislike GTK. Is there alternatives of GTK which implement the same API so that the dynamic linking can be changed and then it will work?
19:00:29 <foxsouns> whats the one kde uses
19:13:32 <zzo38> I don't know
19:17:30 <foxsouns> ah, it came back to me
19:17:36 <foxsouns> zzo38: its qt
19:18:57 <foxsouns> but i dont know if it has the same api, probably not
19:21:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * TheXappy *  New user account
19:25:34 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88767&oldid=88757 * TheXappy * (+173) /* Introductions */
19:26:32 <foxsouns> hewhew, welcome another user
19:26:34 <b_jonas> int-e: I saw a 100 MB HDD that is as wide as normal hard disks or CD drives (5.25 inch) but thicker, yes, it used to be in our computer when I was a small child
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19:29:25 <b_jonas> also I'm still looking to buy a monitor, and the selection in large monitors is underwhelming
19:33:30 <b_jonas> It still seems like I'll be buying one with 2560x1440 px resolution, so I will have to make a 24 px tall font (named fecupboard24 obviously)
19:42:54 <fizzie> The "standard" height of a CD-ROM drive bay is called "half-height", which I think int-e was referring to.
19:43:09 * cd spins
19:44:46 <fizzie> "Full-height bays were found in old PCs in the early to mid-1980s. They were 3+1⁄4 inches (82.6 mm) high -- Half-height drive bays are 1+5⁄8 inches (41.3 mm) high --“
19:46:54 <fizzie> It's also a little confusing how they're called "5.25" bays" when they're actually 5.75" wide, but of course the bay needs to be a little bit wider than the 5.25" floppy that goes into it.
19:47:29 <b_jonas> fizzie: in that case I only saw a hard disk that is as thick as a CD drive, not a full height one
19:49:23 <nakilon> velik do you like USB?
19:49:37 <velik>  you doin etc.
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20:21:22 <esolangs> [[9f87m4atttaaaou;]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88768&oldid=88756 * CosmicMan08 * (+96) 
20:23:56 <nakilon> oracle cloud is different from google and yandex in many ways; the minimal disk size is 50 gb even for the boot one and you don't choose between hdd, ssd, etc. but precisely select the performance stats
20:28:03 <zzo38> I think Xaw is mostly OK, although it isn't used so much in modern programs and is only on X. Programs using SDL might have their own widget implementations, which is what I did (and also a independent implementation of X resource manager).
20:34:49 <esolangs> [[9f87m4atttaaaou;]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88769&oldid=88768 * CosmicMan08 * (+118) 
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21:05:54 <esolangs> [[Greg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88770&oldid=88766 * TheJonyMyster * (+15) /* general stuff */
21:06:10 <esolangs> [[Greg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88771&oldid=88770 * TheJonyMyster * (+13) 
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21:44:31 <esolangs> [[Senpai]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88772&oldid=88764 * 4gboframram * (+19) /* External Resources */
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23:53:23 <esolangs> [[Greg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88773&oldid=88771 * TheJonyMyster * (+11) 
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23:55:58 <nakilon> I love Apple Script
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23:56:12 <nakilon> just look at this: " tell application "Terminal" to get the history of every tab of every window"
23:58:33 <esolangs> [[9f87m4atttaaaou;]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88774&oldid=88769 * CosmicMan08 * (+515) Added computational class

2021-10-13:

00:02:19 <nakilon> it is the closest thing to human language I've seen
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00:03:17 <fizzie> Sounds like something a person from the Osmosian Order of Plain English Programmers would write.
00:03:19 <nakilon> used it in 2013 to adapt GUI testing suite to macOS
00:03:28 <imode> I wonder what their parser is for that.
00:03:33 <fizzie> https://osmosianplainenglishprogramming.blog/
00:04:27 <imode> I actually don't disagree with this.
00:07:34 <nakilon> cool
00:08:06 <esolangs> [[Greg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88775&oldid=88773 * TheJonyMyster * (+224) /* general stuff */
00:08:40 <esolangs> [[Greg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88776&oldid=88775 * TheJonyMyster * (+36) /* gregex */
00:08:56 <nakilon> is there no indentation or it's a bad formatting?
00:09:09 <nakilon> it should better have blocks
00:14:46 <nakilon> I need a thing to control the Terminal in the similar way the Selenium controls a browser
00:15:32 <nakilon> to test apps with interactive dialogs no matter what they use to implement them like ncurses or anything else
00:16:26 <nakilon> I want some interface that would allow to send keystrokes and to read the actual visual state of the window as a two-dimensional array of chars
00:18:01 <nakilon> pretty sure Apple Script makes it possible; also there is some "inspecting" feature in the Terminal application that probably has some interface (maybe the same it gives to the Apple Script, idk) but it's weird that I've never heard of making an analogue of Selenium for the terminal
00:18:21 <nakilon> and google tells nothing
00:35:26 <nakilon> hmmmm what if there is some browser-based terminal
00:35:34 <fizzie> Heh, sounds a little like good old Expect, except with something that'd interpret control sequences and maintain a notion of the screen state.
00:35:43 <nakilon> that would hopefully be supported by my dialogs tool
00:36:34 <fizzie> Also heh, looks like someone has done that *in* Expect. https://opensource.apple.com/source/gccfast/gccfast-1622/expect/example/virterm.auto.html
00:37:33 <fizzie> https://wiki.tcl-lang.org/page/tkterm
00:40:15 <fizzie> Context for the above: http://linux.math.tifr.res.in/manuals/html/expect-FAQ.html#q22
00:45:35 <nakilon> not sure I understand this: "# 0) make sure Expect is linked into your Tk-based program (or vice versa)"
00:46:06 <fizzie> Expect and Tcl and Tk are a lifestyle, not a tool. ;)
00:46:28 <fizzie> Looks like a bunch of people have been making things like that though.
00:47:56 <fizzie> See also https://github.com/JulienPalard/vt100-emulator and a lot of JS spinoffs on top of tty.js code.
00:49:27 <fizzie> Also since you mentioned a browser-based terminal, https://chromium.googlesource.com/apps/libapps/+/HEAD/hterm is what we always use on ChromeOS systems for SSH-in-a-Chrome-tab.
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01:01:29 <nakilon> fizzie do I understand right that you embed it into a page https://github.com/chromium/hterm/blob/main/doc/embed.md and then open it in a browser and you'll have an interface that will behave as the one from where you've launched ... oh wait, if you open it in a browser then where are you?..
01:01:55 <nakilon> or it's not connected to the actual host OS?
01:04:08 <fizzie> Most often we use it with nassh to provide a terminal to something running elsewhere. I think ChromeOS native terminal is also hterm-based, and then it's showing a pty from the host, but I've no idea how that exactly works.
01:05:59 <nakilon> sounds working, heh, that would such a crazy way to test an app
01:07:14 <nakilon> I suppose I've heard about hterm but didn't realise the applicability of it
01:13:24 <nakilon> hm, that Embedding doc tells how to write via HS but not how to read
01:16:08 <fizzie> Yeah, normally you'd read by implementing the callbacks. I imagine there must be an API to read from the buffer as well.
01:17:25 <fizzie> There's at least a `getRowsText` method on the hterm.Terminal, though that seems to be designed more for clipboard purposes.
01:26:55 <nakilon> maybe that's it, I see it here https://chromium.googlesource.com/apps/libapps/+/HEAD/hterm/js/hterm_vt_tests.js
01:27:35 <fizzie> There's also the hterm.Screen class that seems to represent a single screen independent of the scrollback buffer, but I can't see a way to get the Screen out of the Terminal without assuming it's the `screen_` property.
01:29:11 <nakilon> oh I see https://github.com/chromium/hterm/blob/0264cd340ccc21f0321c3a2d70fccadbf0bc377f/js/hterm_terminal.js#L1951
01:29:18 <nakilon> the clipboard
01:30:35 <nakilon> but why not though
01:35:41 <esolangs> [[9f87m4atttaaaou;]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88777&oldid=88774 * CosmicMan08 * (+32) 
01:49:55 <esolangs> [[Greg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88778&oldid=88776 * TheJonyMyster * (+17) 
02:17:44 <esolangs> [[Greg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88779&oldid=88778 * TheJonyMyster * (+571) tc proof
02:18:12 <esolangs> [[Greg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88780&oldid=88779 * TheJonyMyster * (+8) 
02:27:45 <esolangs> [[Greg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88781&oldid=88780 * TheJonyMyster * (+59) /* Computational class */
02:45:29 <esolangs> [[Greg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88782&oldid=88781 * TheJonyMyster * (+12) /* Computational class */
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02:57:43 <nakilon> woah
02:58:11 <nakilon> In 2019, Microsoft announced plans to rebuild the browser as Chromium-based[10][11] with Blink and V8 engines. Microsoft stopped releasing security patches for Edge Legacy from March 9, 2021, and released a security update on April 13, 2021, which replaced Edge Legacy with Chromium-based Edge.
02:58:16 <nakilon> I totally missed it
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06:45:58 <zzo38> What do you expect should be the suggested file name extension for Free Hero Mesh composite puzzle sets?
06:47:56 <nakilon> what are other extensions you already defined?
06:53:58 <zzo38> The file with pictures/sounds is .xclass, the file with class definitions is .class, the file with levels (and the level index) is .level, the file with solutions and test cases is .solution. (However, a composite puzzle set combines all of these into one file, but a composite puzzle set cannot be edited unless you split it apart into separate files.)
07:05:31 <nakilon> .fhm
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08:29:32 <nakilon> ok so you launch the chromium with these two flags https://pptr.dev/#?product=Puppeteer&version=v3.1.0&show=api-working-with-chrome-extensions passing the Secure Shell extension
08:30:11 <nakilon> then for some reason there is no chrome flag to enable an extension in incognito mode so you have to navigate to its page and click the checkbox
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08:30:59 <nakilon> then you visit the actual page of the extension with #nakilon@localhost, then to accept the fingerprint you do: br.frames[1].at_css("input").type "yes\n"
08:31:59 <nakilon> then I launched ruby, used the library to initiate the fancy menu like this: br.keyboard.type "prompt.select(\"Choose your destiny?\", %w(Scorpion Kano Jax))\n"
08:33:04 <nakilon> br.keyboard.type :down  -- to select the 2nd of 3 options, and then    br.evaluate("term_.getRowsText(0,48)").split("\n").last 3   # => ["  Scorpion", "‣ Kano", "  Jax"]
08:33:17 <nakilon> i.e. everything works _^^
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08:36:53 <nakilon> then I'll wrap it in a gem and write some stupid header "Selenium for Terminal" in README.md so the empty google results will lead to it
08:39:46 <nakilon> just need to come up with some handy assertions to add them to testing frameworks Minitest that I use and RSpec that people use the most
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13:38:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * CuboidRaptor *  New user account
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13:42:10 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88783&oldid=88767 * CuboidRaptor * (+210) introducing myself
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13:48:12 <esolangs> [[PP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88784 * CuboidRaptor * (+272) Created page with "pP is an esolang created by [[User:CuboidRaptor|CuboidRaptor]] and is intended as a joke language that honestly barely even counts as a programming language.  In pP, the only..."
13:51:43 <esolangs> [[User:CuboidRaptor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88785 * CuboidRaptor * (+271) Created page with "Hello there, I'm CuboidRaptor, a youtuber and programmer that likes doing dumb weird things that are not useful at all. Check out my youtube channel [https://www.youtube.com/c..."
13:55:09 <esolangs> [[UPE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88786 * CuboidRaptor * (+495) Created page with "UPE, or Unary Python Esolang, is a language/extension of python that just makes your life impossible, to use UPE, write your program in Python3, then replace every character i..."
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15:20:50 <esolangs> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88787&oldid=88719 * CuboidRaptor * (+19) 
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17:00:13 <esolangs> [[PP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88788&oldid=88784 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+80) fix title, cats
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19:13:56 <esolangs> [[!@$%^&*()+/Algorithms]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88789&oldid=82532 * Fmbalbuena * (+115) Not Algorithm added.
19:18:57 <esolangs> [[!@$%^&*()+/Algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88790&oldid=88789 * Fmbalbuena * (-115) Undo revision 88789 by [[Special:Contributions/Fmbalbuena|Fmbalbuena]] ([[User talk:Fmbalbuena|talk]])
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22:40:34 <esolangs> [[Pancakes]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88791&oldid=88441 * CatCatDeluxe * (+2333) Add function declaration part
22:41:20 <esolangs> [[UPE]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88792&oldid=88786 * CuboidRaptor * (+329) 
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22:52:44 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * CowMan9999 *  New user account
22:56:09 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88793&oldid=88783 * CowMan9999 * (+220) /* Introductions */
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2021-10-14:

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03:46:43 <esolangs> [[Awib]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88794&oldid=75300 * Clive * (+210) Updated awib description to include newer capabilities.
03:53:30 <esolangs> [[Awib]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88795&oldid=88794 * Clive * (+52) Added link to latest version (?) on github
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04:42:12 <esolangs> [[On/Off]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88796 * TheJonyMyster * (+480) i dont plan on making any more joke langs so plz dont delete this one im gonna get a lot of mileage out of it
04:43:25 <esolangs> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88797&oldid=88787 * TheJonyMyster * (+13) added on/off
04:45:06 <esolangs> [[On/Off]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88798&oldid=88796 * TheJonyMyster * (+19) added no i/o tag
04:50:22 <nakilon> might be interesting for local northern europe language enthusiasts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MRfVHU9fr0
04:52:25 <zzo38> If you play any role playing system (whether it is D&D or GURPS or something else), do you consider historical things such as leper windows, and the old way they played dice (which is the same as they do now, except that there is a "main number"; if 7 then it is the same as the modern game, and also main number 7 gives the best chance of winning), and the mass/denominations of money, etc?
05:35:04 <zzo38> Do you like Just Solve The File Format Problem wiki?
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09:23:07 <ccx_> Playing tabletop with history nerds could certainly be fun. When it comes to tabletops I've mostly enjoyed contemporary horror (Delta Green, Kult: Divinity Lost) and quite a few other systems that don't tie themselves to the stereotypical faux-historical fantasy.
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13:40:35 <esolangs> [[ScriptJava]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88799&oldid=77765 * Bulkasmakom * (-4) 
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14:29:43 <Sgeo> `olist 1246
14:29:45 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1246.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
14:50:27 <esolangs> [[User:CuboidRaptor]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88800&oldid=88785 * CuboidRaptor * (+32) 
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15:42:06 <esolangs> [[PRNGP2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88801 * CuboidRaptor * (+467) Created page with "PRNGP2, or Psuedo-Random Number Generator Python v2, is a PRNG based Python3 extension that is made to be painful. To write in PRNGP2, use input whole numbers seperated by ";"..."
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16:57:49 <esolangs> [[User:CuboidRaptor]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88802&oldid=88800 * CuboidRaptor * (+12) 
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17:02:25 <esolangs> [[PRNGP2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88803&oldid=88801 * CuboidRaptor * (+70) 
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17:05:13 <esolangs> [[Hell.js]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88804&oldid=88762 * Sink * (-15) /* External Resources */
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17:06:25 <esolangs> [[PP]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88805&oldid=88788 * CuboidRaptor * (+104) 
17:10:20 <esolangs> [[UPE]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88806&oldid=88792 * CuboidRaptor * (+524) 
17:12:58 <esolangs> [[PRNGP2]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88807&oldid=88803 * CuboidRaptor * (+109) 
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18:03:59 <int-e> `unidecode 🥺
18:04:02 <HackEso> ​[U+1F97A FACE WITH PLEADING EYES]
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19:36:05 <nakilon> why is there a word "OSINT" if there is already a word "Googling"?
19:36:12 <nakilon> new SEO buzzword?
19:37:34 <nakilon> I've heard it once from a guy here few months ago who was talking like fungot and now multiple times from local telegram sources
19:37:35 <fungot> nakilon: lots of great instrumental stuff, too.... i got it. :)
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19:56:56 <nakilon> https://www.quora.com/What-is-a-coders-worst-nightmare/answer/Mick-Stute
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20:51:14 <zzo38> ccx_: So far, I was one player who was knowing some of the historical things, the GM didn't but it nevertheless was helpful. I have rwitten the story recorded the game I was playing in case someone is interested in such thing (and also tried to write about it in All The Tropes wiki, but may have done some things wrong)
21:09:52 <b_jonas> I just ordered my new monitor
21:09:58 <b_jonas> it's rather expensive
21:10:36 <b_jonas> my current monitor is 1920x1200 resolution with 25.5 inch diagonal display size, which was already a rare combination when I bought it and is nonexistent (new or used) right now, so 
21:11:45 <b_jonas> if I don't want to make the new monitor feel like a downgrade, I must by one that's a significant upgrade, at 2560x1440 px resolution and 27 inch diagonal display size.
21:12:34 <b_jonas> add to that that I want one from a good brand so there's less chance that what I get isn't what they promise, and some other stupid exclusion criteria, and I had to end up with something pretty expensive
21:19:39 <ccx_> zzo38: It's fun when people can nerd out together. I guess for me it's that the heroic character archetypes and storylines don't do it for me, so I've been staying off systems that center around that.
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21:25:44 <zzo38> Well, many thing is involved, including characters, storylines, tactics, strategies, being unexpected, etc.
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21:26:27 <zzo38> I usually play as monstrous characters
21:26:48 <zzo38> You can read what I wrote if you want to do (and then see if there is any mistake in it, or if there is not enough footnotes, etc).
21:52:28 <zzo38> If you wanted to read, it is:  http://zzo38computer.org/gurpsgame/1.ui  (you can also download a Hamster archive of it, in case you will prefer to download and then read the local files)
21:54:30 <zzo38> In category theory, some categories may have some morphisms which will be the same when composed with endomorphisms on one or both sides. In the category of matrix multiplication, I think this would be a matrix with all elements being zero. In the category of skill defaulting in SciRPS, it can correspond to defaults with conditions that are impossible to meet.
22:00:02 <zzo38> The Kleisli category of IO monad can have unconditional termination of the program in which case this is applied only one way and not both ways. How would these things be called?
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22:30:52 <esolangs> [[On/Off]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88808&oldid=88798 * TheJonyMyster * (+26) 
22:50:45 <esolangs> [[Awib]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88809&oldid=88795 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+86) Changed the hyperlink pointing to the missing file The Design and Implementation of awib to an extant source, amended an orthographic mistake, and formatted source code as such.
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23:06:59 <esolangs> [[INCJ]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88810 * Pyautogui * (+186) Created page with "The INCJ (pronounced INC-JAY) programming language is an OISC. The pseudo-C definition for it goes thusly    int main()          [[Category:OISC]]Category:Unknown_computatio..."
23:13:45 <arseniiv_> zzo38: in a monoid, elements o with the property o x = x is called left or right absorbing (I’m confused each time if it’s left or right for those things), so one could more or less safely extend that terminology to morphisms
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23:14:05 <arseniiv> s/is called/are called
23:14:32 <arseniiv> s/in a monoid/in a semigroup
23:15:27 <arseniiv> though a category analog will be indeed a monoid, why do I generalize
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23:45:17 <esolangs> [[INCJ]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88811&oldid=88810 * Pyautogui * (+321) 
23:46:21 <esolangs> [[INCJ]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88812&oldid=88811 * Pyautogui * (+49) 
23:47:30 <esolangs> [[INCJ]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88813&oldid=88812 * Pyautogui * (+5) 
23:49:59 <esolangs> [[INCJ]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88814&oldid=88813 * Pyautogui * (+16) 
23:50:56 <esolangs> [[INCJ]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88815&oldid=88814 * Pyautogui * (-19) 
23:52:45 <esolangs> [[INCJ]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88816&oldid=88815 * Pyautogui * (+0) 
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2021-10-15:

01:48:04 <esolangs> [[Slam]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88817&oldid=87617 * ArthroStar11 * (-46) updated link to interpreter
01:49:19 <esolangs> [[User:ArthroStar11]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88818&oldid=88737 * ArthroStar11 * (-46) updated link to Slam
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02:36:55 <Corbin> Hm, ais523 isn't here. I'm reading about Turing categories, and TIL that there's a requirement for encoding Turing-ish machines categorically which should extend to The Waterfall Model, and thus to matrices.
02:38:09 <Corbin> There should be some way to take two matrices and encode them into a pair matrix, so that we can extract one or the other original matrix later on. The analogue is Morton encoding for natural numbers.
02:38:33 <Corbin> I *want* to guess that it's just direct sum, but I'm not sure. Was wondering if anybody else had already worked this out.
02:39:24 <zzo38> What dimensions do the original matrix and the new matrix should have, and what type of the elements?
02:44:31 <Corbin> I'm not sure about dimensions. The matrix elements are just natural numbers, but we could do Booleans first if that's easier.
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03:24:11 <photon_niko> hmmm
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03:30:06 <esolangs> [[Starstuff]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88819&oldid=88750 * PixelatedStarfish * (+65) 
03:30:28 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * PixelatedStarfish *  uploaded "[[File:DAvidBowie.png]]"
03:32:02 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88821&oldid=88749 * PixelatedStarfish * (+66) 
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13:44:17 <arseniiv> @messages?
13:44:17 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
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14:01:41 <iamn00b> hello
14:01:43 <iamn00b> test
14:01:52 <iamn00b> apparently there's an irc to discord thing
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14:18:14 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Www620 *  New user account
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14:57:19 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88822&oldid=88821 * PixelatedStarfish * (+399) 
14:57:57 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88823&oldid=88822 * PixelatedStarfish * (+20) /* External Links */
14:58:11 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88824&oldid=88823 * PixelatedStarfish * (+9) /* External Links */
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16:08:19 <esolangs> [[Hardfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88825&oldid=86609 * Kaveh Yousefi * (-18) Rectified the two Hello World examples in order to operate correctly.
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16:18:33 <esolangs> [[ErrorFree]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88826 * PixelatedStarfish * (+85) Created page with "See [https://blog.slaks.net/2014-04-01/programming-without-errors-errorfree/ Website]"
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16:42:27 <esolangs> [[Hardfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88827&oldid=88825 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+4060) Provided an implementation of Hardfuck in Common Lisp together with a hyperlink to a more throughoutly documented version on my GitHub account.
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17:00:24 <esolangs> [[INCJ]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88828&oldid=88816 * Pyautogui * (-9) 
17:02:18 <esolangs> [[INCJ]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88829&oldid=88828 * Pyautogui * (-56) 
17:07:12 <esolangs> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88830&oldid=88797 * Pyautogui * (+11) 
17:07:51 <esolangs> [[INCJ]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88831&oldid=88829 * Pyautogui * (+30) 
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17:32:35 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88832&oldid=88751 * PixelatedStarfish * (+91) 
17:32:56 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88833&oldid=88832 * PixelatedStarfish * (+6) 
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21:36:03 <esolangs> [[ACHEQUEUENINETHOUSANDPLUS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88834 * TheJonyMyster * (+1051) Created page with "'''ACHEQUEUENINETHOUSANDPLUS''' (aka '''HQ9000+''') is a derivative of [[HQ9+]] that is more '''powerful''' than HQ9+:  * '''H''': Print [[Hello, world!|"HELLO MORTAL"]] * '''..."
21:36:23 <esolangs> [[ACHEQUEUENINETHOUSANDPLUS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88835&oldid=88834 * TheJonyMyster * (-1) 
21:38:13 <esolangs> [[HQ9+]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88836&oldid=84849 * TheJonyMyster * (+67) added derivative
21:40:52 <esolangs> [[ACHEQUEUENINETHOUSANDPLUS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88837&oldid=88835 * TheJonyMyster * (+17) 
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2021-10-16:

00:13:55 -!- dutch has joined.
00:34:06 <esolangs> [[User:IFcoltransG/HQ9+ derivatives]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88838&oldid=68913 * TheJonyMyster * (+31) added hq9000+
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00:47:19 <esolangs> [[Senpai]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88839&oldid=88772 * 4gboframram * (+30) /* Basic Info */
00:49:11 <esolangs> [[Senpai]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88840&oldid=88839 * 4gboframram * (-1) /* Basic Info */
00:50:05 <esolangs> [[Senpai]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88841&oldid=88840 * 4gboframram * (+6) /* Stack Operations */
00:52:44 <esolangs> [[Senpai]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88842&oldid=88841 * 4gboframram * (-145) /* Features */
00:53:22 <esolangs> [[Senpai]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88843&oldid=88842 * 4gboframram * (+9) /* Variables */
00:53:43 <esolangs> [[Senpai]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88844&oldid=88843 * 4gboframram * (-14) /* Expressions */
00:54:48 <esolangs> [[Senpai]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88845&oldid=88844 * 4gboframram * (+33) /* Expressions */
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02:44:24 <esolangs> [[Forget]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88846&oldid=64968 * PixelatedStarfish * (+25) /* Resources */
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04:14:01 <zzo38> How does the most finite damage of Magic: the Gathering changed if all state-based actions are suppressed? Will this increase or decrease?
04:18:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: hard to tell. maybe the order of magnitude doesn't change; maybe it increases because you can pull off some combo that creates a lot of tokens in your hand or library or graveyard and use those as fuel for something
04:22:15 <b_jonas> it might even decrease if the best combos become infinite because your opponent won't automatically lose the game after you do the combo
04:23:10 <b_jonas> I haven't really followed how the current best known decks work, which is also why I can't guess
04:27:04 <b_jonas> although wait, wasn't it suspected that the best deck involves a busy beaver so large (by setting up some turing-complete computation with lots of fuel) that it goes to undecidable territory to tell how much damage it deals? 
04:27:45 <zzo38> Those are the reasons I thought it might increase or decrease, and was therefore unsure
04:27:46 <b_jonas> Iirc that wasn't proven, but it was a reasonable conjecture based on not quite working decks
04:36:02 <b_jonas> while we're there, has anyone figured out what the infinity rules of M:tG could actually mean if you tried to formalize them, and whether they're uncomputable and how much?
04:39:11 <b_jonas> because it sounds like you might get something that climbs the arithmetic hierarchy all the way up or something
04:39:25 <b_jonas> or maybe there's just no reasonable way to formalize them
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05:06:00 <Pyautogui> Noob here: What is the smallest BF derivative, in instruction number?
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05:17:03 <Corbin> Pyautogui: There is an automatic technique for making one-instruction and zero-instruction flavors of any language, including Brainfuck.
05:17:21 <imode> do tell!
05:22:47 <Corbin> Take the programs of any language. Equip them with a partial order; f precedes g when f's text can be partially evaluated to produce g. Form a categorical logic in the standard way; the objects are equivalence classes of programs and the arrows are partial evaluations.
05:23:34 <Corbin> The type theory corresponding to the category is a zero-instruction abstract machine. It might not have a confluent reduction; it could be non-deterministic.
05:28:37 <Corbin> Intuitively, in many-instruction Brainfuck, there is a decoding of an instruction and then an action which is dependent on the decoded instruction. The zero-instruction category forgets that decoding is separate; the action that will be taken is hardcoded into each arrow.
05:37:44 <nakilon> Corbin he left before you started answering
05:38:04 <nakilon> truly noob there
05:39:40 <Corbin> Happens. I'm slow.
05:47:56 <oerjan> never mind, he wouldn't have understood anything anyway :P
05:49:11 <oerjan> *they
05:49:50 <oerjan> (hopefully imode did)
05:51:10 * oerjan certainly didn't
05:51:39 <oerjan> anyway, i was going to have some caffeine ->
06:00:12 <nakilon> take this ☕
06:00:24 <nakilon> \wa ☕
06:00:31 <velik>  Name: hot beverage | Similar characters: ⌚ (watch) | ⌛ (hourglass) |   | Unicode block: Miscellaneous Symbols (9728 through 9983) (256 characters)
06:00:55 <nakilon> very similar...
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06:42:21 <zzo38> The rules should be formalized in order to clarify them.
06:42:53 * oerjan was actually going for the iced variety, also he somehow got rerouted to eating
06:43:49 * oerjan is reminded of the saying "The beatings will continue until morale improves"
06:54:25 <zzo38> (If the way that it is supposed to be working formally is known, I could add them to the Codex, in case it becomes important in a puzzle.)
07:03:52 <zzo38> (I also included many rules for determining the timestamps of objects in the given position; in some cases it results in the puzzle being split into multiple puzzles, and in some cases it results in a solution that seems to be valid but actually isn't, or vice-versa.)
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09:37:57 <nakilon> is there a reason why no bot here prints titles of links posted?
09:38:10 <river> www.test.com
09:38:12 <river> hmm
09:38:24 <river> maybe it isn't needed, i never like these bots really
09:39:03 <nakilon> ok then I'll enable it only for other channels
09:40:46 <nakilon> test.com does not open anyway )
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09:43:46 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Hyeon72 *  New user account
09:52:18 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88847&oldid=88793 * Hyeon72 * (+134) /* Introductions */
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09:56:31 <esolangs> [[User:Hyeon72]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88848 * Hyeon72 * (+41) Created page with "Nothing yet and trying to make a esolang."
10:06:53 <esolangs> [[User:Hyeon72]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88849&oldid=88848 * Hyeon72 * (+52) 
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10:46:52 <esolangs> [[Mbfi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88850 * Oerjan * (+10367) Time to publish something
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12:27:54 <esolangs> [[Kolmogorov]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88851&oldid=88505 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+5) Updated the hyperlink for the interpreter to my renamed GitHub account.
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12:38:44 <esolangs> [[Hardfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88852&oldid=88827 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+18) Updated the hyperlink for the interpreter to my renamed GitHub account.
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13:25:21 <esolangs> [[Jaune]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88853&oldid=82922 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+1) Redirected the hyperlink to the interpreter in order to recognize the modified hierarchy of my GitHub account.
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14:33:40 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88854&oldid=88703 * Keymaker * (+84) Added Mbfi.
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15:25:21 <esolangs> [[Forget Me Not]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88855 * PixelatedStarfish * (+353) Created page with "Forget Me Not is a programming language by [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] and influenced by INTERCAL. The instruction pointer will forget what it was trying to do and start over (..."
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17:24:24 <esolangs> [[TheEnd]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88856 * Pyautogui * (+1037) Created page with "TheEnd is an esoteric programming language inspired by Malbolge. It's intention is to be very, very, close to unusable, without actually being there.  == Specification ==  ===..."
17:25:12 <esolangs> [[TheEnd]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88857&oldid=88856 * Pyautogui * (-2) 
17:29:37 <esolangs> [[TheEnd]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88858&oldid=88857 * Pyautogui * (+330) 
17:30:17 <esolangs> [[TheEnd]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88859&oldid=88858 * Pyautogui * (+9) 
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19:16:16 <esolangs> [[Snake Script]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88860&oldid=77444 * VilgotanL * (+49) fix title and add categories
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19:27:57 <esolangs> [[Forget Me Not]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88861&oldid=88855 * PixelatedStarfish * (+506) 
19:41:11 <b_jonas> I agree, I also don't like bots that prints the title of URLs posted
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19:54:32 <Franciman> hello esofriends
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20:09:23 <nakilon> hello
20:25:25 <esolangs> [[Forget Me Not]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88862&oldid=88861 * PixelatedStarfish * (+553) 
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20:31:40 <nakilon> Pyautogui https://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_instruction_minimalization
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20:32:23 <Pyautogui> Thanks! Exactly what I was looking for.
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20:49:15 <esolangs> [[Forget Me Not]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88863&oldid=88862 * PixelatedStarfish * (+246) /* Instructions */
20:49:46 <esolangs> [[Forget Me Not]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88864&oldid=88863 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Instructions */
20:50:48 <esolangs> [[Forget Me Not]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88865&oldid=88864 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Instructions */
20:52:42 <esolangs> [[Forget Me Not]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88866&oldid=88865 * PixelatedStarfish * (+101) /* Instructions */
21:16:36 <esolangs> [[Forget Me Not]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88867&oldid=88866 * PixelatedStarfish * (+65) 
21:17:13 <esolangs> [[Forget Me Not]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88868&oldid=88867 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Instructions */
21:17:17 <esolangs> [[Newton's Third Nightmare]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88869 * RocketRace * (+18933) Newton's Third Nightmare
21:17:58 <esolangs> [[Newton's Third Nightmare]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88870&oldid=88869 * RocketRace * (+1) Alignment
21:23:48 <esolangs> [[Newton's Third Nightmare]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88871&oldid=88870 * RocketRace * (+81) Categorization
21:25:09 <esolangs> [[Forget Me Not]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88872&oldid=88868 * PixelatedStarfish * (+52) /* Instructions */
21:27:36 <esolangs> [[Forget Me Not]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88873&oldid=88872 * PixelatedStarfish * (+9) 
21:28:05 <esolangs> [[User:RocketRace]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88874&oldid=87355 * RocketRace * (+75) NTK
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21:39:47 <esolangs> [[Newton's Third Nightmare]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88875&oldid=88871 * RocketRace * (+34) Line width smoothing
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22:10:08 <esolangs> [[Greg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88876&oldid=88782 * TheJonyMyster * (+5142) formatting overhaul
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22:48:34 <nakilon> TIL that shadow DOM can have <style> and there is a thing <style scope>
22:48:54 <nakilon> though I don't understand why Chrome uses both at the same time on its preferences page
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2021-10-17:

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01:18:14 <esolangs> [[Greg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88877&oldid=88876 * TheJonyMyster * (+1238) 
01:20:49 <esolangs> [[OREO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88878&oldid=88356 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+6) Updated the hyperlink for the interpreter to my renamed GitHub account.
01:49:06 <esolangs> [[Greg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88879&oldid=88877 * TheJonyMyster * (+96) 
01:50:38 <esolangs> [[Greg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88880&oldid=88879 * TheJonyMyster * (-41) 
01:56:38 <esolangs> [[Greg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88881&oldid=88880 * TheJonyMyster * (-2) /* Official documentation */
01:58:44 <esolangs> [[Greg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88882&oldid=88881 * TheJonyMyster * (+66) 
01:58:58 <esolangs> [[Greg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88883&oldid=88882 * TheJonyMyster * (+0) 
02:05:50 <esolangs> [[Greg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88884&oldid=88883 * TheJonyMyster * (+69) 
02:08:45 <esolangs> [[Greg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88885&oldid=88884 * TheJonyMyster * (-53) 
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02:31:18 <esolangs> [[Greg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88886&oldid=88885 * TheJonyMyster * (+206) defined rotation
02:35:34 <esolangs> [[Greg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88887&oldid=88886 * TheJonyMyster * (+0) 
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02:53:11 <esolangs> [[Forget Me Not]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88888&oldid=88873 * PixelatedStarfish * (+106) /* Instructions */
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03:00:39 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88889&oldid=88833 * PixelatedStarfish * (+19) /* In Chronological Order */
03:02:27 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88890&oldid=88889 * PixelatedStarfish * (+77) /* Unimplemented Languages */
03:02:52 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88891&oldid=88890 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Starstuff */
03:10:17 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88892&oldid=88639 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1094) /* Assembly language */
03:11:08 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88893&oldid=88892 * PixelatedStarfish * (+5) /* Astridec */
03:17:33 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88894&oldid=88893 * PixelatedStarfish * (+329) /* Black */
03:19:39 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88895&oldid=88894 * PixelatedStarfish * (+111) /* Brian & Chuck */
03:20:07 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88896&oldid=88895 * PixelatedStarfish * (+5) /* Broken Calculator */
03:23:30 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88897&oldid=88896 * PixelatedStarfish * (+136) /* Hanoi Love */
03:25:23 <esolangs> [[Greg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88898&oldid=88887 * TheJonyMyster * (+121) 
03:27:06 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-Z)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88899&oldid=87575 * PixelatedStarfish * (+228) /* Sortle */
03:27:17 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-Z)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88900&oldid=88899 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Something */
03:31:11 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-Z)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88901&oldid=88900 * PixelatedStarfish * (+51) /* Wheat */
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04:00:51 <esolangs> [[Forget Me Not]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88902&oldid=88888 * PixelatedStarfish * (+112) 
04:01:34 <esolangs> [[Forget Me Not]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88903&oldid=88902 * PixelatedStarfish * (+10) /* Instructions */
04:36:44 <nakilon> heh, the basic tests via Secure Shell https://github.com/Nakilon/paster/blob/5499a7735369dea057a8c8c3acf042df19c8e265/test.rb#L83-L102
04:36:52 <nakilon> one presses ^C, another one presses Enter
04:37:23 <nakilon> and I now imagine it can be used to make bots for games
04:37:29 <nakilon> nethack-like
05:18:16 <esolangs> [[Hanoi Love]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88904&oldid=65415 * Asteriska * (+3341) Add instructions, overview, my link, a program, and translation table.
05:54:49 <nakilon> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9nr0r/what_are_some_good_terminal_games_like_nethack/
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06:12:57 <zzo38> Can you make up any levels of Hero Hearts of other puzzle game?
06:25:28 <zzo38> s/of other/or other/
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07:54:11 <nakilon> this looks like XOR http://www.level7.org.uk/chroma/
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08:25:27 <esolangs> [[Newton's Third Nightmare]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88905&oldid=88875 * RocketRace * (+270) Clarifications
08:49:03 <esolangs> [[Newton's Third Nightmare]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88906&oldid=88905 * Iamn00b * (+31) 
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09:13:24 <esolangs> [[FISH WALKING ]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88907 * MathR * (+3182) FISH WALKING
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09:19:17 <esolangs> [[FISH WALKING ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88908&oldid=88907 * MathR * (-1) an joke esolang => a joke esolang
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10:52:35 <esolangs> [[Mbfi]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88909&oldid=88850 * Oerjan * (+0) More accurate testing with instruction counting is a bit more pessimistic
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14:42:03 <esolangs> [[Newton's Third Nightmare]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88910&oldid=88906 * RocketRace * (-31) Undo revision 88906 by [[Special:Contributions/Iamn00b|Iamn00b]] ([[User talk:Iamn00b|talk]])
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17:01:21 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88911&oldid=88349 * Maikeru51 * (+269) /* Proposed Category:Big Five */
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17:48:34 <esolangs> [[Greg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88912&oldid=88898 * TheJonyMyster * (-11) 
18:06:51 <zzo38> I have seen XOR and Chroma. It might be possible converting these levels to Free Hero Mesh, if they are no bigger than 64x64, and ensure rules are implemented properly (if it has the features needed to implement these rules). If it comes with solutions, then the solutions can be tested. (Maybe later perhaps should be possibility to test sequences that expect losing instead of winning)
18:08:48 <zzo38> (They say you can replay solutions, but I haven't checked whether or not it comes with solutions.)
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19:11:10 <esolangs> [[Spellcaster]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88913&oldid=88582 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Turing Complete */ fix cats
19:11:20 <esolangs> [[Spellcaster]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88914&oldid=88913 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) /* Turing Complete */ ditto
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20:18:09 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Ataberk *  New user account
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20:38:05 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88915&oldid=88847 * Ataberk * (+350) Ataberk introduction
20:41:03 <esolangs> [[User:LarhoCherqi]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88916&oldid=86515 * LarhoCherqi * (+61) Added one more esolang to my list of esolangs
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21:03:40 <zzo38> Can OpenSSL use ALPN?
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21:50:45 <b_jonas> `? al gore
21:50:48 <HackEso> Al Gore invented the algorithm.
21:53:21 <int-e> is that one of those inconvenient truths
22:04:34 <esolangs> [[Senpai]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88917&oldid=88845 * 4gboframram * (+100) /* External Resources */
22:04:53 <esolangs> [[Senpai]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88918&oldid=88917 * 4gboframram * (-12) /* External Resources */
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22:23:10 <nakilon> either https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Window/innerHeight is outdated or idk
22:23:52 <nakilon> my innerHeight is bugger than outerHeight, and so stuff on page does not fit the window
22:24:44 <nakilon> and I see no way to know the real inner window height that I need to know how much I need to resize the whole window to fit all the content
22:25:01 <nakilon> so TIL: developer.mozilla.org isn't always right
22:25:23 <nakilon> (especially on pages with screenshot made in Win XP)
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22:34:49 <nakilon> ok maybe it's not their fault but Chrome's that when I launch it via CDP it equals innerheight to outerheight and freezes it forever, that's what it looks like
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23:10:32 <esolangs> [[Greg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88919&oldid=88912 * TheJonyMyster * (+0) 
23:32:29 <esolangs> [[Coeus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88920&oldid=84485 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+2) Updated my interpreter's hyperlink to point to my renamed GitHub account.
23:35:07 <nakilon> ok maybe not even Chrome's but a fault of one weird line in the "initial commit" of the library I use
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23:38:43 <esolangs> [[Blood32]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88921&oldid=87859 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1852) /* The Goblins Operation */
23:38:58 <esolangs> [[Blood32]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88922&oldid=88921 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1899) /* Pointer Behaviors */
23:43:21 <esolangs> [[Forget Me Not]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88923&oldid=88903 * PixelatedStarfish * (+72) /* Instructions */
23:43:42 <esolangs> [[Forget Me Not]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88924&oldid=88923 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2) /* Instructions */
23:48:19 <esolangs> [[Forget Me Not]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88925&oldid=88924 * PixelatedStarfish * (+156) /* Instructions */
23:50:44 <esolangs> [[Forget Me Not]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88926&oldid=88925 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Instructions */
23:52:03 <esolangs> [[Forget Me Not]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88927&oldid=88926 * PixelatedStarfish * (+35) 
23:54:21 <esolangs> [[Forget Me Not]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88928&oldid=88927 * PixelatedStarfish * (+147) /* Instructions */

2021-10-18:

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09:17:50 <int-e> pfft... ever download the source code of a program to figure out that you missed a menu item...
09:18:13 <int-e> s/ever/did you ever/
09:19:50 <int-e> (I was annoyed that chroma (which was mentioned this weekend) kept starting in full screen mode... there's a "save options" action in the display menu...)
09:24:40 <int-e> I'm finding it hard btw... maybe it's the sheer size of the levels and the fact that you have to plan pretty far ahead, even in the first "for beginners" level.
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09:26:10 <int-e> (it's *mostly* small independent parts, but there's a bit of interaction and you have to decide on a good order for solving the parts)
09:33:44 <int-e> (The UI is quite idiosyncratic... bailing out is a mix of ESC, Q, A...)
09:47:26 <oerjan> ah int-e is here. time for my wild theory about the current girl genius short story.
09:48:10 <oerjan> it was said that the guild hall was bigger on the outside than the inside.  and with that key... i think the inside is still _there_, waiting to be found.
09:51:03 <int-e> I'm not up-to-date on GG
09:51:58 <int-e> how long has it been... a week, according to the bookmark
09:52:22 <oerjan> ic
09:52:44 <int-e> (I did see the "the outside is bigger than the inside"... let me catch up. But the obvious question at the time was "how much bigger" ;-) )
09:55:25 <oerjan> hm now that i'm reading today's properly i think it may be hinting at my theory too
09:57:40 <int-e> yeah it does sound like you just have to find the lock... oh and solve the logistics problem which may be a bit tricky
09:58:23 <oerjan> logistics?
10:03:00 <int-e> getting the key to the lock without it disappearing
10:03:17 <int-e> "tricky" reminds me of this btw: https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20080528
10:04:39 <int-e> (which is helpfully linked here, https://girlgenius.fandom.com/wiki/Rudolf_Selnikov#cite_note-4 )
10:07:22 <oerjan> might be easier getting the lock to the key, if it's not nearby
10:07:56 <oerjan> `yafgclist
10:07:58 <HackEso> yafgclist? No such file or directory
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14:48:22 <esolangs> [[Human Resource Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88929&oldid=73408 * Monochromeninja * (+983) added python interpreter tio
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16:12:20 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88930&oldid=88891 * PixelatedStarfish * (+12) /* Unimplemented Languages */
16:12:59 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88931&oldid=88930 * PixelatedStarfish * (-11) /* Logos */
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16:14:10 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88932&oldid=88931 * PixelatedStarfish * (+65) /* In Chronological Order */
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16:14:38 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88933&oldid=88932 * PixelatedStarfish * (+69) /* In Chronological Order */
16:16:16 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88934&oldid=88933 * PixelatedStarfish * (-10) /* In Chronological Order */
16:17:41 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88935&oldid=88934 * PixelatedStarfish * (+13) /* In Chronological Order */
16:20:24 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88936&oldid=88935 * PixelatedStarfish * (+125) /* In Chronological Order */
16:22:03 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88937&oldid=88936 * PixelatedStarfish * (+64) /* In Chronological Order */
16:23:19 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88938&oldid=88937 * PixelatedStarfish * (-16) /* In Chronological Order */
16:24:32 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88939&oldid=88938 * PixelatedStarfish * (+41) /* Logos */
16:26:08 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88940&oldid=88939 * PixelatedStarfish * (-30) /* Logos */
16:26:24 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88941&oldid=88940 * PixelatedStarfish * (-8) /* Logos */
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16:27:50 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88942&oldid=88941 * PixelatedStarfish * (+66) /* Logos */
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16:28:08 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88943&oldid=88942 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* Logos */
16:28:52 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88944&oldid=88943 * PixelatedStarfish * (+56) /* Logos */
16:29:59 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88945&oldid=88944 * PixelatedStarfish * (-433) /* Logos */
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16:57:44 <zzo38> I don't like it to automatically start full screen mode by default
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17:08:41 <Corbin> Do weird machines count as esoteric languages?
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17:13:16 <fizzie> Probably they're at least close enough? 
17:17:06 <Corbin> Yeah, that's how I feel about it too.
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20:28:16 <nakilon> int-e there were multiple implementations of chroma on that website and one of them is emulating some oldschool computer and it shows only a local region of the map
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20:47:38 <int-e> nakilon: that's... ouch
20:48:44 <int-e> for the levels I've seen having a complete view seems quite essential
20:49:54 <int-e> (I have not come far in this game... I finished the first 2 levels)
20:50:18 <int-e> Which in a more traditional game design would probably be about 20 levels.
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21:03:03 <esolangs> [[Talk:Hanoi Love]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88946&oldid=88613 * Asteriska * (+315) add to talk page
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21:56:18 <zzo38> I agree I want to see the entire level grid at once
21:56:59 <zzo38> It might not work on small displays unless you have small icons, though, if the level grid is too big to fit.
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22:09:52 <nakilon> in XOR it was by design to not see the full map
22:10:19 <nakilon> you had to collect 4 pieces of the less informative minimap explicitely
22:10:44 <zzo38> Yes, I know that.
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22:19:32 <zzo38> Although I like the puzzles you can see the entire game at once and then try try to figure it out from there. (This includes chess problems, Magic: the Gathering puzzles (although there may be hidden information in the game state, the puzzle is effectively exposed, like opponent choices), Hero Hearts (although Shemitz and some others seems to like to hide objects), non-dark ZZT games, etc)
22:21:39 <zzo38> One game for Game Boy Advance called "Brain and Bells" the entire game does not fit on the screen at once so scrolling is necessary, although you can push the shoulder buttons to scroll it so that you can still see the entire game.
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22:46:42 <esolangs> [[BOOMOP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88947 * Rphii * (+10498) Created BOOMOP, the superior, most future proof programming language ever
22:47:37 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88948&oldid=88830 * Rphii * (+13) /* B */ added BOOMOP
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22:54:26 <esolangs> [[User:Rphii]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88949&oldid=88191 * Rphii * (+65) add BOOMOP
22:59:30 <esolangs> [[BOOMOP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88950&oldid=88947 * Rphii * (-2) /* Flow */ wording
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23:09:36 <nakilon> there is a mode in modern online chess where you see only the fields your pieces can reach
23:10:36 <zzo38> Yes, that is one variant
23:11:25 <zzo38> Another variant is that you cannot see any opponent's pieces at all, but you will know when it is check and if you try a illegal move will be able to try again something else instead.
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2021-10-19:

00:09:30 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
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00:26:44 <esolangs> [[BOOMOP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88951&oldid=88950 * Rphii * (-59) /* Commands */ remove unnecessary instruction (I have to think of a better one...)
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00:49:06 <nakilon> I loved the old Skype game that was mixing chess and rock scissors paper
00:49:32 <nakilon> you don't see which of three value your opponent pieces belong to until they engage
00:49:36 <nakilon> and where is the "king"
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01:58:03 <esolangs> [[Starstuff]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88952&oldid=88819 * PixelatedStarfish * (+84) /* External Links */
01:58:17 <esolangs> [[Starstuff]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88953&oldid=88952 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* External Links */
01:59:42 <esolangs> [[Astridec]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88954&oldid=88824 * PixelatedStarfish * (+86) /* External Links */
03:15:43 <esolangs> [[Wheel]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88955&oldid=87861 * PixelatedStarfish * (+73) /* External Links */
03:15:53 <esolangs> [[Wheel]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88956&oldid=88955 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2) /* External Links */
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04:29:52 <zzo38> Do you have a copy of the rules?
04:32:31 <zzo38> What is it called in a puzzle (including chess, or Magic: the Gathering, or whatever it may be) that there will be a set of minor variations of the same thing that would have their own solutions? (In Magic: the Gathering, this is sometimes done by one of your cards being any one in the given list of cards)
04:32:57 <nakilon> oh it was ICQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2sDtTbzHiI
04:33:31 <zzo38> Do you have a copy of the rules in a text?
04:33:55 <nakilon> nope, I don't remember more than you can see here
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04:35:08 <nakilon> pawns move in 4 directions and IIRC you chose two kings, if any of them die you lose
04:35:19 <nakilon> and probably it can't attack, I'm not sure
04:35:43 <nakilon> it was ~14 years ago
04:36:42 <nakilon> the concept of not seeing what your opponent did was like in the Battleships but more fun
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08:08:22 * nakilon started making a bot for the umoria roguelike via this terminal thing
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10:42:22 <esolangs> [[BOOMOP]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88957&oldid=88951 * Rphii * (+1262) add new command, flow, change entry point, wording and expanding on some explanations
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11:13:16 <esolangs> [[BOOMOP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88958&oldid=88957 * Rphii * (+104) /* n-sided polygon */ clarification
11:18:44 <esolangs> [[BOOMOP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88959&oldid=88958 * Rphii * (+173) /* n-sided polygon */ adding errors
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15:55:53 <esolangs> [[Something]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88960&oldid=87860 * PixelatedStarfish * (+54) /* External Resources */
15:56:43 <esolangs> [[Something]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88961&oldid=88960 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* External Resources */
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17:20:09 <esolangs> [[User:Nanobot567/common.css]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88962 * Nanobot567 * (+38) dark mode first attempt
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22:59:12 <esolangs> [[TEPCS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88963&oldid=88761 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+1) Rectified the 99 Bottles of Beer example by appending a terminating exclamation mark (!) to the end of the penultimate code line.
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23:56:35 <nakilon> would you recommend ttyrec fornat?
23:56:41 <nakilon> *format
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23:58:49 <nakilon> hm, looks like it's just a stream; need to figure out how to emulate the change on specific coordinates ..(
23:59:18 <nakilon> want to record the session from hterm

2021-10-20:

00:03:14 <nakilon> oh I see https://stackoverflow.com/a/33509850/322020
00:06:56 <fizzie> I've always assumed ttyrec is literally just all the output (including control characters) + timing metadata.
00:10:08 <nakilon> yep
00:11:05 <nakilon> but I don't want to get in the way of secure shell job
00:12:21 <nakilon> I'm thinking of just flooding the chrome with js commands to read the Screen and then convert these frames to a fake ttyrec session recording
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00:14:07 <nakilon> I can also obtain the main thread current source code line number to then append at the bottom of the screen -- it will change quickly but should look fun
00:14:46 <fizzie> I wouldn't want to be in the business of figuring out the optimal sequence of codes to send to make one screen-grab look like another.
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00:15:26 <nakilon> it looks trivial though https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Ttyrec
00:15:32 <nakilon> at least as I understood
00:15:54 <fizzie> The format is trivial, but those "frames" aren't frames of screen, they're just chunks of control codes.
00:15:57 <nakilon> I'll just position to (0,0) every time and print the whole screen with \n between lines
00:16:01 <fizzie> Ugh.
00:16:26 <nakilon> but I won't record the control codes -- I get the chars from DOM
00:16:40 <nakilon> and the only control code I'm going to use is to go back to (0,0)
00:16:55 <nakilon> at least I imagine it's the only one I need
00:16:59 <fizzie> Yes, that's what I mean, the process of converting two screen-grabs of characters to *sensible* control codes that change one to the other isn't trivial.
00:17:06 <fizzie> If you're not going to bother, then sure.
00:17:06 <nakilon> and then there are some converters from ttyrec to gif
00:18:29 <nakilon> it's gonna use much less resources than ffmpeg screengrab
00:19:08 <fizzie> I used to have a serial terminal as an under-the-table "computer" for web browsing and suchlike, and you could see that *something* in the stack (screen? lynx?) had actually thought about the problem, because when you paged down, if there was a big chunk repeated in a different position, it would actually scroll that into the right orientation using the sub-rectangle scroll things, and then
00:19:10 <fizzie> redraw the surroudings.
00:22:33 <fizzie> Isn't this all JS? Surely you can just monkey-patch in a hook somewhere in hterm to give you a copy of the input stream it's interpreting? Like, just a hterm.Terminal.IO wrapper that delegates all calls but also writes to a ttyrec.
00:24:04 <fizzie> Or replace the hterm.Terminal.interpret function of the live object.
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00:24:15 <nakilon> maybe
00:24:43 <nakilon> but I would also like to have recording in some text editor comprehensible format
00:24:55 <nakilon> so I could cut the things out
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00:25:42 <fizzie> Well, okay, that's different, if you intend to do "video editing" on it.
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00:29:06 <nakilon> somehow the umoria game sometimes corrupts the save file when I drop the session; already implemented the handling of the file corruption dialog to :escape, rm game.sav\n, :up, :up, :enter, lol
00:29:58 <nakilon> it's a bit scary to issue the commands in the shell session; maybe I should create a separate user
00:38:24 <esolangs> [[Blood32]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88964&oldid=88922 * PixelatedStarfish * (+57) /* External resources */
00:47:34 <esolangs> [[Suscript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88965&oldid=87980 * Not applicable * (-25) update github url
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01:15:09 <nakilon> hm, that wiki page does not explain what is len
01:15:22 <nakilon> is it byte size or
01:15:58 <nakilon> ok, I'll suppose it's a byte size just for file format purpose
01:19:00 <fizzie> The C example does pretty much deobfuscate it.
01:19:25 <fizzie> (`fread(data, 1, len, stdin)` → len is in bytes.)
01:28:01 <nakilon> funny how you try to google terminal recording in a straight forward way you find nothing except two or three python tools that don't work in the end
01:28:20 <nakilon> and totally miss the whole list of tools to try from this wiki page
01:57:15 <nakilon> hm, ipbt does not play my ttyrec properly; shows only the first 4 lines of screen are filled with some pieces of my framers
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01:57:29 <nakilon> *frames
02:02:31 <nakilon> oh, what is ^M? should I use it instead of \n?
02:04:23 <nakilon> ok it's 13
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02:09:37 <nakilon> looks like in someone's nethack session every line ends with \r even if the next line is positioned with control code
02:10:44 <nakilon> https://dpaste.org/6YkN/slim you can see it's 0d before the 1d control code, hm
02:11:01 <nakilon> (the 5th line of the second dump)
02:13:21 <nakilon> I'll suppose I have to position every line
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02:52:31 <nakilon> ok so: 1. ipbt can't utf-8 2. jettyplay does not run on modern java 3. ttyplay needs clean screen at start and does not clean after itself on ^C
02:52:59 <nakilon> ^ summary on ttyrec players
03:00:56 <zzo38> Which features do you need? (The other alternative might be writing your own one?)
03:02:10 <nakilon> 4. termrec cleans after itself but not before, so "clear && termplay rec.ttyrec" seems to work! but I guess my ttyrec is still not fully valid, need to clean the lines from previous frame somehow -- I wonder if there is any command to clean the whole screen or should I rewrite with spaces explicitely
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03:03:10 <nakilon> zzo38 the goal is to have a handy ttyrec preview in terminal, then I'll convert it to gif with some other tools, didn't start yet, need to giure out to generate proper ttyrec files
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03:08:09 <nakilon> ipbt is handy in the way that I can move forward and backward with < >, but it can't utf-8; not that I need it much but the first frame of my recording includes it because my it's in my ssh motd
03:17:30 <nakilon> I now wonder how this works https://dpaste.org/E04v/slim between "--More--" and "------" there is stuff that should clean the whole screen, but I have no idea what is it starting with bf 18...
03:18:33 <nakilon> oh wait, it's just the next header
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03:23:53 <nakilon> so 1b 5b 48 1b 5b 4b 1b  5b 48 1b 5b 32 4a 1b 5b 48 must clean the screen, I wonder where it's documented
03:24:36 <imode> terminal escape codes?
03:25:34 <nakilon> maybe this https://www.csie.ntu.edu.tw/~r92094/c++/VT100.html
03:26:13 <imode> yup.
03:26:15 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI_escape_code
03:26:20 <imode> here's the documentation for that.
03:26:47 <nakilon> but what's the purpose of  [K before [2J
03:28:02 <imode> good question, I dunno.
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03:36:36 <nakilon> wow, this recording thing running in separate thread appeared to be useful immediately to debug the errors; for example, if I press Esc and then immediately "rm game.sav\n", the "r" is lost because the game didn't yet exit -- it was too fast so I could not see it until I replay it with ipbt
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04:39:56 <nakilon> https://unsteadyhoneydewrelationalmodel.nakilon.repl.co/
04:40:20 <nakilon> I want some easier to use html pastebin ( and with shorter urls
04:40:57 <nakilon> oh probably I could override that subdomain, still repl.it is kind of overkill
04:41:48 <nakilon> so you can see here it created a character and ran into someone, ending with
04:42:07 <nakilon> "The Mean-Looking Mercenary hits you." (RuntimeError)
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05:10:25 <nakilon> btw the termrec author has a font if anyone is interested http://angband.pl/font/tinyfont.html
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09:22:03 <wib_jonas> nakilon: unix terminals have this feature where in the output they insert a \r before a \n by default, unless you opt out of that using tcsetattr. this happens even in virtual terminals, but only at the deepest erminal layer, eg. if you forward terminal output with ssh, then the translation is done in the virtual terminal on the server, and the ssh
09:22:03 <wib_jonas> client disables these transformations on the terminal on the client and no longer knows about most of the underlying terminal modes on the server.
09:22:40 <wib_jonas> nakilon: in the other direction, in terminal input (eg. from keyboard), \r is transformed to a \n by default, unless you disable that with tcsetattr. 
09:24:05 <wib_jonas> if there is any command to clean the whole screen => on vt-102-like terminals, "\e[H\e[J", otherwise ask terminfo how to do it
09:27:30 <wib_jonas> if you want an overview of escape sequences on vt-102-like modern terminals, see the manuals urxvt(7) http://pod.tst.eu/http://cvs.schmorp.de/rxvt-unicode/doc/rxvt.7.pod#Escape_Sequences , console_codes(4) https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man4/console_codes.4.html , screen(1) https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man1/screen.1.html#THE_VIRTUAL_TERMINAL
09:27:31 <wib_jonas> ; 
09:31:55 <wib_jonas> for historical reasons, programs generally don't hard-code these escape sequences, but abstract over them using the terminfo library and its terminfo description files. these and docs for them and the terminfo description source files for each terminals (compiled before loaded to programs) are installed from the ncurses package
09:31:55 <wib_jonas> https://invisible-island.net/ncurses/announce.html , manuals include terminfo(5) https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man5/terminfo.5.html describing the format of the terminfo source descriptions, https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man3/curs_terminfo.3x.html for the C API of the library that reads the compiled descriptions and emits the escapes, 
09:32:50 <wib_jonas> https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man1/tput.1.html for a command-line program doing that. 
09:33:30 <wib_jonas> the ncurses library proper is a more optional heaviweight abstraction, you need not use it to use terminfo, even if they're installed together.
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11:02:44 <esolangs> [[User:ArthroStar11]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88966&oldid=88818 * ArthroStar11 * (+206) 
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13:47:25 <esolangs> [[FROM HERE TO THERE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88967&oldid=87456 * Monochromeninja * (+1041) added python interpreter tio
13:48:29 <esolangs> [[Talk:FROM HERE TO THERE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88968&oldid=78834 * Monochromeninja * (+240) added my 2 cents
13:48:59 <esolangs> [[FROM HERE TO THERE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88969&oldid=88967 * Monochromeninja * (-2) implemented!
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16:22:42 <esolangs> [[Talk:FROM HERE TO THERE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88970&oldid=88968 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+159) /* Implementation */ looks good
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18:49:47 <esolangs> [[Lenta]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88971&oldid=34683 * Monochromeninja * (+1237) added python interpreter tio
18:50:33 <esolangs> [[Talk:Lenta]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88972&oldid=77446 * Monochromeninja * (+263) /* Interpreter */ new section
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21:13:57 <esolangs> [[Heck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88973&oldid=87858 * PixelatedStarfish * (+105) /* External Links */
21:14:26 <esolangs> [[Heck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88974&oldid=88973 * PixelatedStarfish * (-35) /* External Links */
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23:17:23 <Kit> holy shit daggy is here? hi daggy
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23:50:19 <Kit> hi
23:50:25 <Kit> im developing a 2D esolang
23:50:30 <Kit> based on "beams" of color
23:51:03 <Kit> i wont go into too much detail bc i dont want anybody to steal my idea
23:51:04 <Kit> but
23:51:24 <Kit> i was curious what should happen on the event of two beams "merging"
23:51:46 <Kit> should i get the sum of each of the RGB values? or the average?
23:51:57 <Kit> should i just error?
23:52:07 <Kit> like
23:52:24 <Kit> if i do the sum, then chances are that itll just get capped at 255
23:52:34 <Kit> for each RGB value
23:52:35 <Kit> WAIT
23:52:36 <Kit> idea
23:52:54 <esolangs> [[User:Challenger5]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88975&oldid=77025 * Challenger5 * (+23) add reference to 9f8 interpreter
23:57:40 <Kit> should i include alpha in RGB values or is that too weird

2021-10-21:

00:06:33 <esolangs> [[9f87m4atttaaaou;]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88976&oldid=88777 * Challenger5 * (+61) add my implementation
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00:11:29 <msmith12[m]> imode you're here too ?
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00:12:16 <Kit> wait
00:12:24 <Kit> how many people do i know that i can count
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00:15:39 <imode> msmith12[m]: yup.
00:16:35 <Kit> c itrons, c orbin, d aggy1234, and thats it i think
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01:53:13 <Corbin> Kit: Both the additive and subtractive models of color form monoids; there's a "zero" and an "addition" and everything associates correctly. The real question is whether you want to use light (additive) or paint colors (subtractive) for this.
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03:13:12 <nakilon> 02:51:03 <Kit> i wont go into too much detail bc i dont want anybody to steal my idea
03:13:15 <nakilon> lol
03:13:29 <nakilon> people can't find time even for implementing own ones
03:27:45 <nakilon> interesting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impossible_color
03:28:08 <nakilon> now I want high hertz monitor for that spinning thing
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05:18:42 <citrons> esolangs
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06:54:11 <zzo38> I had idea inventing dice rolling programming language
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11:48:37 <oerjan> no matter how many times i look it up, my memory keeps forgetting again whether "trigger" has a hard g (yes) or a soft one.
11:48:51 <oerjan> `? oerjan
11:48:54 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arkup-nemesis is mediawiki's default diff. He twice punned without noticing it.
11:49:19 <oerjan> `slwd orjan//s,for convenience,as a hard trigger,
11:49:20 <HackEso> Roswbud!
11:49:23 <oerjan> oops
11:49:29 <oerjan> `slwd oerjan//s,for convenience,as a hard trigger,
11:49:31 <fizzie> Once punned, twice shy.
11:49:31 <HackEso> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here as a hard trigger. His arkup-nemesis is mediawiki's default diff. He twice punned without noticing it.
11:50:01 <oerjan> the evidence of shyness is inconclusive hth
12:32:53 <esolangs> [[M?!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88977&oldid=70838 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+192) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the M?! programming language on GitHub.
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13:34:34 <esolangs> [[M?!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88978&oldid=88977 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+341) Introduced an Examples section with a Hello World! program as its initial member.
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15:43:16 <nakilon> do you like the "elsif" keyword?
15:43:41 <nakilon> I don't see why languages have this thing at all
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16:10:27 <oerjan> nakilon: it reduces deep nesting of syntax without reintroducing the "dangling else" problem
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16:12:12 <oerjan> well, depending on the rest of the syntax.
16:14:14 <oerjan> it makes little sense if the general syntax still has the dangling else problem
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16:17:53 <oerjan> for an intendation-based language, you could instead make a rule like "if following else does not need its own indentation block"
16:18:14 <oerjan> hm does python already do that?
16:18:45 <oerjan> (haskell doesn't, but it also doesn't have dangling else because you cannot leave out the else)
16:21:22 <oerjan> doesn't look like it
16:22:53 <oerjan> hm looking at python's actual syntax, there's no real reason it couldn't use "else if" instead of "elif".
16:23:46 <oerjan> hm except that's not the same as "else: if" which _would_ go against the indentation rules
16:24:44 <oerjan> but anyway, a keyword is still avoiding an extra syntax level
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17:28:03 <esolangs> [[User:Rphii]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88979&oldid=88949 * Rphii * (+444) cool table go brr
17:29:15 <esolangs> [[User:Rphii]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88980&oldid=88979 * Rphii * (+4) /* My Languages */
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18:56:44 <esolangs> [[Hoverfly]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88981 * Kemuri * (+1892) Created page with "==Hoverfly== <code>hoverfly</code> was intended to be a 'normal' language, however, since I am new to parsing, I downgraded the syntax to the lowest and it became an interesti..."
19:13:42 <esolangs> [[Hoverfly]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88982&oldid=88981 * Kemuri * (+272) 
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19:53:36 <Melvar> oerjan: My impression is that long if-else chains don’t come up much in Haskell, because part of what those do in other langs is instead expressed as pattern matching (and then you can just use guards). On the other hand, presumably there was a reason that the MultiWayIf extension got added.
20:32:30 <oerjan> Melvar: ah yes.  well, writing case () of _ | ... just to simulate if-else chains does look a bit silly
20:34:10 <nakilon> https://store.steampowered.com/app/1444480/Turing_Complete/
20:34:25 <nakilon> https://store.steampowered.com/app/1276070/Manufactoria_2022/
20:37:39 <nakilon> https://store.steampowered.com/app/1720850/AB/
20:44:17 <fizzie> What, has someone turned /// into a game? 
20:44:40 <riv> yes
20:44:52 <riv> i dont think they were aware of //
20:51:08 <fizzie> From https://store.steampowered.com/tags/en/Programming/ I see there's also a regex puzzle game.
20:51:47 <imode> wish I could do that and get money for it.
20:52:27 <fizzie> I think I saw https://store.steampowered.com/app/619150/while_True_learn/ before too.
20:52:55 <fizzie> Both cats and machine learning are relevant to my interests, but OTOH it seemed a little bit too educational maybe.
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22:47:47 <esolangs> [[BOOMOP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88983&oldid=88959 * Rphii * (+12) wording: "side" becomes "edge"
22:51:48 <esolangs> [[User:Rphii]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88984&oldid=88980 * Rphii * (+0) 
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22:54:38 <esolangs> [[BOOMOP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88985&oldid=88983 * Rphii * (+0) 
22:58:03 <esolangs> [[BOOMOP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88986&oldid=88985 * Rphii * (+0) r
23:05:36 <esolangs> [[BOOMOP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88987&oldid=88986 * Rphii * (+27) /* Flow */ fix what didn't come out of my head
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23:57:00 <zzo38> Why does the computer make a lot of noise for several minutes after it is turned on but then it isn't quite so loud after that?

2021-10-22:

00:09:06 <user3456> I believe it's because the computer reads from disk a lot during bootup
00:09:10 <user3456> But I might be wrong
00:09:59 <Corbin> Depending on the machine, the fans might be configured to run at full speed on boot, and it's not until later that the OS turns them down to a reasonable speed.
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00:41:22 <Kit> okay for my 2d esolang i mentioned earlier
00:41:23 <Kit> uh
00:41:38 <Kit> do you think this would be an adaquate control flow thing
00:41:40 <Kit> so
00:41:41 <Kit> uh
00:42:22 <Kit> `#` allows any beam to pass through ONLY IF the amount of non-zero beams on that cell is greater than 2
00:42:24 <HackEso> ​#`? No such file or directory
00:42:29 <Kit> oh shut up
00:42:51 <zzo38> What things can cause the mouse to not move properly in some directions? Touching the thing inside works properly, and I tried to clean the ball and the mouse pad, but it is not much better than it was before
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02:09:28 <zzo38> Sometimes GitHub has a message like "Sorry, we had to truncate this directory to 1,000 files. 651 entries were omitted from the list." Is there a way to access the next page?
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07:12:28 <nakilon> Corbin AFAIK it's not just the fans fault
07:12:50 <nakilon> they are like this because BIOS uses 100% of videocard power
07:13:16 <nakilon> at least that fancy red GUI thingy with mouse
07:14:03 <nakilon> or the step before it, I don't remember, but it was melting the card
07:14:58 <nakilon> zzo38 do you use ball mouse? _Oo
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08:01:35 <riv> > the snowflake emoji, which is the traditional snowflake glyph with the V16 modifier
08:01:37 <lambdabot>  <hint>:1:20: error: parse error on input ‘,’
08:01:37 <riv> didn't realize that
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11:43:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Jaipack17 *  New user account
11:48:21 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88988&oldid=88915 * Jaipack17 * (+297) 
11:49:00 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88989&oldid=88988 * Jaipack17 * (+67) 
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13:01:03 <esolangs> [[Trow]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88990 * Jaipack17 * (+2202) Created page with "= Trow =  Trow is an output-only esoteric language designed to generate randomized sentences using different kinds of sentence structures and lists. Multiple lists with differ..."
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13:01:42 <esolangs> [[Trow]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88991&oldid=88990 * Jaipack17 * (-39) 
13:02:26 <esolangs> [[Trow]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88992&oldid=88991 * Jaipack17 * (-36) 
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15:28:00 <Kit> would you say lines 19-40 and 75-83 are clear on what they do or should i add comments? https://penis.observer/DDwtD.bas
15:29:14 <Kit> or well
15:29:25 <Kit> i guess this can extend to the rest of the code
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16:56:54 <esolangs> [[Trow]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88993&oldid=88992 * Jaipack17 * (+0) 
17:57:48 <Corbin> Are tombstone diagrams available on the wiki? Or would I have to make an image for each diagram and upload it individually?
17:58:00 <Corbin> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tombstone_diagram
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18:20:46 <zzo38> As far as I know, esolang wiki does not have any tombstone diagrams yet.
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19:21:40 <fizzie> I imagine you could also somewhat emulate them with with tables and cell borders, using the feature where the top/right/bottom/left borders can be set separately.
19:21:42 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88994&oldid=88306 * Fizzie * (+843) Tombstone diagram test
19:21:48 <fizzie> Like ^ in that thing.
19:22:04 <fizzie> (Leaving a gap left as an exercise for the reader.)
19:27:37 <riv> puckipedia?
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21:10:55 <nakilon> what a domain name https://penis.observer/DDwtD.bas
21:11:05 <Kit> lol
21:11:07 <Kit> yea
21:11:19 <Kit> its like 0x0.st but funny
21:11:23 <nakilon> it lacks line number for better observation
21:11:46 <Kit> h
21:11:50 <fizzie> `curl -s ... | nl -ba` is my go-to line number tool for "plain" paste sites.
21:11:53 <HackEso> Traceback (most recent call last): \   File "<string>", line 1, in <module> \ NameError: name 'access' is not defined
21:12:00 <fizzie> HackEso: Don't you start with me.
21:12:10 <Kit> lol
21:13:52 <fizzie> `cbt curl
21:13:53 <HackEso> ​#!/bin/bash \ exec $HACKENV/bin/lynx
21:13:56 <fizzie> `cbt lynx
21:13:57 <HackEso> ​#!/bin/bash \ ? 'web access' >&2 \ exit 1
21:14:09 <nakilon> I'm on windows, what's the nl? 
21:14:12 <nakilon> I thought there is cat -n
21:14:20 <fizzie> `` echo ?
21:14:21 <HackEso> ​🌱
21:14:32 <fizzie> The dangers of an unescaped ?, I guess.
21:14:35 <Kit> `` ls
21:14:39 <HackEso> ​:#,_@ \ 🌱 \ a.o \ a.out \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bef2 \ bfi \ bin \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ egel-master \ egel-scripts \ egel.zip \ eGtbSgN68aHU \ just \ karma \ le \ olist.new \ output.b \ paste \ pd \ pd.c \ pikhqbow_tst \ program \ -.s \ spline \ spout \ stall \ test \ test.sh \ this.py \ tmp \ wisdomls.txt \ xaa
21:14:50 <Kit> wait is my thing still there
21:14:51 <Kit> uh
21:15:01 <Kit> `` who
21:15:02 <HackEso> No output.
21:15:05 <Kit> what was it called
21:15:06 <Kit> uh
21:15:09 <Kit> hold on
21:15:38 <Kit> ah
21:15:42 <Kit> `` whatwg
21:15:42 <fizzie> `sled /hackenv/bin/lynx//s|?|\\?|
21:15:45 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/lynx//#!/bin/bash \ \? 'web access' >&2 \ exit 1
21:15:47 <HackEso> whatwg HTML specification -- 6172131 bytes strong! (as of 2021-02-07 22:47:46.000000000 +0000)
21:15:51 <Kit> YES
21:15:56 <fizzie> `curl just checking
21:15:57 <Kit> AHA its still there
21:15:57 <HackEso> Sorry, HackEgo's sandbox currently has no web access. However, see `? `fetch
21:16:39 <Kit> i cant believe it
21:16:42 <Kit> like
21:16:52 <Kit> i havent touched #esolangs in like
21:16:59 <Kit> well
21:17:09 <Kit> before the freenode thing
21:18:14 <nakilon> ``` ls -lt | rev | head -1
21:18:15 <HackEso> rev: stdin: Invalid or incomplete multibyte or wide character \ 863 latot
21:18:17 <Kit> wait lemme update it
21:18:46 <Kit> `` cat `which whatwg`
21:18:47 <HackEso> ​#!/bin/bash \ FILENAME="tmp/whatwg" \ if ! [ -e "$FILENAME" ]; then \  echo 'what?' \  exit -1 \ fi \ FILESIZE=$(stat -c%s "$FILENAME") \ FILEDATE=$(stat -c%y "$FILENAME") \ echo -e "whatwg HTML specification -- $FILESIZE bytes strong! (as of $FILEDATE)" \ exit 0
21:19:04 <Kit> `fetch --help
21:19:05 <HackEso> wget: unable to resolve host address ‘--help’
21:19:17 <fizzie> `? fetch
21:19:18 <HackEso> ​`fetch [<output-file>] <URL> downloads files, and is the only web access currently available in HackEso. It is a special builtin that cannot be called from other commands. See also `edit.
21:19:51 <nakilon> ``` ls -lt | tail -1
21:19:52 <HackEso> ​-rw-r--r--  1 1000 1000     55 Oct 23  2019 test.sh
21:20:18 <Kit> `fetch tmp/whatwg https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/
21:20:20 <HackEso> 2021-10-22 22:20:19 URL:https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/ [137682/137682] -> "/hackenv/tmp/tmp/whatwg" [1]
21:20:35 <Kit> `` whatwg
21:20:36 <HackEso> whatwg HTML specification -- 137682 bytes strong! (as of 2021-10-22 05:58:30.000000000 +0000)
21:20:46 <Kit> wait
21:20:49 <Kit> thats lower?
21:20:57 <Kit> oh wait im stupid
21:21:29 <Kit> `fetch tmp/whatwg https://html.spec.whatwg.org
21:21:32 <HackEso> Cannot write to ‘/hackenv/tmp/tmp/whatwg’ (File too large).
21:21:42 <Kit> haha
21:21:50 <Kit> its grown too big
21:22:04 <Kit> imma move to privmsg so i dont spam too much
21:24:34 <nakilon> what is whatwg? I thought those who standardize these things are called w3c or something
21:24:43 <fizzie> Aw. I think the file size limit's still 10 megs.
21:24:53 <Kit> yea
21:24:54 <Kit> uh
21:25:54 <Kit> i fixed it by using the PDF version as a reference instead
21:26:21 <Kit> i could prob do something with pandoc going to plain text for a more accurate (and hopefully smaller) representation of it
21:26:26 <Kit> but im LAZY
21:26:28 <Kit> and STUPID
21:27:00 <fizzie> I don't know what to compare the whole WHATWG-to-W3C situation to, but they basically got started as an "independent" group from W3C when W3C went all XHTML/XML, and came up with HTML5, which everyone started to use, so eventually W3C had to just adopt it anyway.
21:27:33 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML5#W3C_and_WHATWG_conflict -- or something along those lines, anyway.
21:28:26 <Kit> i just use the whatwg thing bc a. what and b. it has the single-page version which is comically large
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21:31:43 <Kit> uh
21:31:51 <Kit> that doesnt look too good
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21:33:56 <nakilon> hm, what did it say in my quit line?
21:34:24 <Kit> `* nakilon has quit (*.net *.split)`
21:34:25 <HackEso> ​*? No such file or directory
21:34:43 <Kit> but many people left at the same time
21:34:50 <Kit> which was what alarmed me
21:35:09 <nakilon> weird that split made the client just disconnect
21:35:15 <nakilon> had to press the "Conenct"
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21:35:27 <nakilon> happened once already
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01:25:17 <fizzie> What's the consensus on Markdown files, are you supposed to hard-wrap them at 80 columns or not? 
01:27:41 <zzo38> I don't know, but it might be good to do so in order that they may be displayed even without a Markdown viewer program without its own wrapping
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05:25:22 <nakilon> never heard about 80 in md
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05:30:43 <int-e> fizzie: *checks* Last time I wrote MD I used semantic breaks (a line per sentence, or possibly per clause if it gets long
05:31:00 <int-e> fizzie: with the idea of having meaningful diffs
05:32:30 <int-e> And as usual it's unlikely that there's any consensus :P
05:34:04 <int-e> We couldn't even agree on which side of a byte to crack when disassembling it into bits.
05:45:35 <zzo38> I have used semantic breaks like that in man pages, since that is what it recommends to do.
05:47:24 <zzo38> Formats with bit streams will specify whether the low bit or high bit is first, is what I would think.
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06:34:08 <zzo38> There are some functions of Xsok that Free Hero Mesh does not yet implement, such as the ability to record macros, and the ability to automatically skip to the next unsolved level. (I am not really that sure that the ability to record macros will be useful, though. Do you know?)
06:57:44 <tromp> int-e: am i right in thinking you came up with the church numeral divide term in div.lam ?
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11:06:22 <oerjan> `botsnack
11:06:24 <HackEso> ​>:-D
11:07:01 <riv> :O
11:07:17 <riv> `welcØme
11:07:17 <HackEso> welcØme? No such file or directory
11:07:55 <Taneb> I remember seeing something that was like "It has been proven that if this constant exists, it must be equal to 1". Anyone know what it was?
11:09:12 <imode> Taneb: which field.
11:10:11 <riv> omg, that rings a bell
11:10:30 <imode> cosmology or something?
11:10:54 <imode> my brain keeps going to chaitin's constant.
11:11:10 <imode> but that's not even close.
11:11:48 <Franciman> is forth an esolang?
11:12:07 <imode> depends on your definition of forth and esolang.
11:12:39 <Franciman> i thought there be a forth standard
11:12:51 <Franciman> neat there is not
11:13:02 <imode> there's the ANS forth standard.
11:13:13 <imode> wouldn't call it an esolang.
11:14:48 <oerjan> <nakilon> weird that split made the client just disconnect <-- maybe you were on the actual server that went down
11:14:59 <Franciman> I see, thanks imode ^^
11:15:25 <imode> np!
11:16:08 <oerjan> for your stack-based esolang needs, try underload, emmental or FALSE hth
11:16:39 <oerjan> well also befunge but it has lots of other stuff
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12:18:17 <b_jonas> Franciman: also IOCCC 1992/buzzard.2 is an esolang Forth variant
13:17:21 <Franciman> noted, thanks 
13:17:31 <Franciman> both
14:09:39 <msmith12[m]> How many of you use llvm for experimenting with esolangs? I do
14:11:12 <Corbin> I've considered it. It's so heavy though.
14:11:29 <Corbin> Have you seen QBE? https://c9x.me/compile/
14:16:50 <riv> someone used llvm with brainfuck
14:18:38 <APic> Epic
14:18:49 <APic> Used to have this on my .plan Years ago
14:19:04 <APic> But unfortunately i wasted my Time otherwise ☺
14:19:08 <riv> https://github.com/shinh/elvm
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14:27:20 <msmith12[m]> <Corbin> "Have you seen QBE? https://c9x...." <- yes
14:34:29 <int-e> tromp: pretty sure I did though I don't remember anything about the process (but if I had taken it from somewhere else I'm sure I'd have cited it in the git log at the very least)
14:38:12 <int-e> tromp: hmm, well, I recall a tiny bit... namely the realization that one can use Church numerals as an approximation of the fixed point combinator, provided the number is large enough.
14:42:31 <int-e> (and you don't care what happens when you divide by 0)
14:51:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Iloverust *  New user account
14:51:46 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88995&oldid=88989 * Iloverust * (+177) /* Introductions */
14:52:47 <esolangs> [[Alisj]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88996&oldid=66114 * Iloverust * (+1) upgade http -> https 1st edit test
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15:04:24 <Corbin> Ooh, TIL that pandoc supports Mediawiki syntax.
15:38:33 <esolangs> [[Alisj]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88997&oldid=88996 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) C2 wiki isn't secure
15:39:30 <esolangs> [[Alisj]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88998&oldid=88997 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) use secure version
15:42:38 <esolangs> [[User:Matthilde]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88999&oldid=85357 * Matthilde * (+47) added bogus
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15:50:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * DylanMiddendorf *  New user account
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16:08:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89000&oldid=88995 * DylanMiddendorf * (+286) 
16:09:24 <esolangs> [[!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89001&oldid=75402 * DylanMiddendorf * (+207) Added first unofficial implementation of "!".
16:18:50 <tromp> yes, but the most interesting aspect is taking iterated 1-tuples
16:19:41 <esolangs> [[Bogus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89002 * Matthilde * (+4557) Made Bogus
16:21:32 <tromp> anyway, you won't mind if I attribute it to you?
16:25:47 <esolangs> [[Bogus]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89003&oldid=89002 * Matthilde * (+4) 
16:33:04 <esolangs> [[Mbfi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89004&oldid=88909 * Oerjan * (+8) /* Code */ Small comment correction
16:42:05 <esolangs> [[Clive Gifford]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89005 * Oerjan * (+373) Creating page
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17:51:38 <esolangs> [[Eigenratio]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89006 * Oerjan * (+1527) Start a page for this
17:56:22 <oerjan> now with 100% fewer red links
18:16:57 <Corbin> Yessss.
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19:17:02 <Kit> hmm... what ASCII character (excluding extended ASCII) would make the most sense to be representing a deffuser
19:17:07 <Kit> diffuser*
19:21:31 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89007&oldid=88311 * PixelatedStarfish * (+64) /* External Links */
19:21:44 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89008&oldid=89007 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* External Links */
19:21:55 <Kit> (diffuser as in light diffuser)
19:23:27 <Kit> i was thinking `#` but that seems odd to me
19:25:52 <Kit> i guess its a comparison between `#` and `@` (and maybe `*`)
19:26:13 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89009&oldid=88945 * PixelatedStarfish * (+72) /* Astridec */
19:26:31 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89010&oldid=89009 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Implemented Languages */
19:27:55 <Kit> also i wanted to reserve `#` for something else potentially but im not sure on what yet
19:28:57 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89011&oldid=89010 * PixelatedStarfish * (+195) 
19:29:26 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89012&oldid=89011 * PixelatedStarfish * (+73) /* Starstuff */
19:30:12 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89013&oldid=89012 * PixelatedStarfish * (+65) /* Something */
19:31:31 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89014&oldid=89013 * PixelatedStarfish * (+61) /* Wheel */
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19:53:38 <esolangs> [[User:Hakerh400/How to solve Slitherlink using SAT solver]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89015 * Hakerh400 * (+6881) Created page with "== Slitherlink ==  [[wikipedia:Slitherlink|Slitherlink]] (also known as Fences, Takegaki, Loop the Loop, Loopy, Ouroboros, Suriza and Dotty Dilemma) is a logic puzzle which is..."
19:54:21 <esolangs> [[User:Hakerh400]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89016&oldid=88576 * Hakerh400 * (+105) /* Articles */
19:59:01 <Kit> ill just go with `@`
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22:51:42 <fizzie> Hmm, a 404 page that says "Not Found 404.0" in the response body (with a bit of HTML around it).
22:51:44 <fizzie> Wondering if that means there's a floating-point HTTP status code involved.
22:59:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * DivergentClouds *  New user account
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23:22:38 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89017&oldid=89000 * DivergentClouds * (+186) introduced myself
23:32:38 <esolangs> [[Bogus]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89018&oldid=89003 * DivergentClouds * (+0) a few grammar and spelling fixes
23:37:43 <esolangs> [[Bogus]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89019&oldid=89018 * DivergentClouds * (+4) False is a random non-positive number not a random negative number

2021-10-24:

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06:30:39 <nakilon> just realised that ttyrec is similar to gif in the way that it encodes timestamped regions
06:30:45 <nakilon> there should be ttyrec compressors
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08:37:17 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89020&oldid=89008 * Iamn00b * (+3) minor change
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12:27:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * Dominicentek *  uploaded "[[File:ImagePath - Hello World.png]]"
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13:21:12 <APic> Hi
13:36:47 <Taneb> I've been trying to construct the real numbers in Agda
13:54:36 <shachaf> Taneb: With what sort of construction?
13:55:31 <Taneb> Cauchy sequences with explicit moduli of conversion
13:56:05 <Franciman> dedekind kuts seem easier
13:56:13 <Franciman> maybe less computational?
13:56:43 <Taneb> I went with Cauchy sequences mostly because it's what I was in the mood for
13:56:54 <Franciman> sure
13:56:56 <Franciman> they vibe
13:59:23 <b_jonas> I believe Dedekind cuts are a trap, don't use them. They sound like they're easier because the definition of the set of reals itself is simpler. But once you actually try to define arithmetic and prove all its nice properties, Cauchy sequences behave nicer.
14:01:27 <Taneb> b_jonas: are you speaking from experience?
14:03:20 <riv> im no fan of dedekind cuts either
14:03:42 <riv> i read some interesting discussion about how dedekind cuts vs cauchy sequences are actually different in some way, in constructive logic
14:04:14 <Taneb> Yeah, you can turn a Cauchy sequence into a dedekind cut but not the other way around, I think
14:04:37 <Taneb> (constructively, at least. They're classically equivalent)
14:05:20 <Franciman> as  presumed
14:05:27 <Franciman> thanks folks
14:06:57 <Taneb> I couldn't immediately see how to prove that multiplication converges, so I'm taking a little break. I'm normally best at this sort of thing just after I wake up, I think
14:12:53 <Franciman> that's uhm
14:12:59 <Franciman> a mathematical analysis theorem
14:13:05 <Franciman> you go like uhm
14:13:12 <sprout_> uh,  my intution would be that reals just aren't pat of constructive mathematics,  period?
14:13:19 <sprout_> *part
14:13:37 <Franciman> |a_n * b_n - a*b| = |a_n * b_n - a * b_n + a * b_n - a * b|
14:13:42 <Taneb> sprout_: why do you think that?
14:13:43 <Franciman> then argue by triangular inequality
14:14:11 <Franciman> |a_n * b_n - a * b_n| + |a * b_n - a * b|
14:14:16 <Franciman> second member converges
14:14:23 <Franciman> first member must be argued about twice
14:14:40 <Franciman> ah no ok, you use that convergent series are limited
14:14:42 <Franciman> b_n is limited
14:14:44 <Franciman> you got the moves
14:14:54 <sprout_> Taneb: no idea.  because? infinite approximations and all that.  probably not well founded when you observe it mathematically
14:15:26 <Taneb> sprout_: in practice, you can define pretty much all of it, but you can't compute whether two arbitrary reals are equal
14:15:28 <Franciman> sprout_: constructively reals are indeed on demand fractional numbers
14:15:31 <sprout_> any approximation is wf,  but the thing itself isn't
14:15:37 <Franciman> the more you want precision
14:15:43 <Franciman> the more fractional numbers you can get
14:15:51 <Franciman> that's why cauchy sequences is a good model
14:15:58 <shachaf> In fact no nontrivial property of the reals is decidable.
14:16:12 <Franciman> you can get as far as you want in the sequence for getting a better approximation of reals
14:21:08 <Taneb> Franciman: ah, I've not yet proven that convergent series are limited
14:21:24 <Franciman> that's eaz
14:21:32 <Franciman> how do you define convergent?
14:22:05 <Franciman> epsilon-delta yadda yadda?
14:23:04 <Taneb> seq is convergent iff forall positive rational epsilon, there exists an N such that for all m, n > N, |seq[m]-seq[n]| < epsilon
14:25:29 <Taneb> Oh, I think I see how to do it
14:25:52 <Taneb> I can ask how far I need to go before it's all within epsilon = 1 (say), then take the max up to then and add 1
14:26:07 <Franciman> exactly!
14:26:17 <Franciman> ggwp
14:36:22 <esolangs> [[User:Hakerh400/How to solve Slitherlink using SAT solver]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89022&oldid=89015 * Hakerh400 * (+4) 
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15:37:05 <Corbin> "Real Analysis in Reverse" https://arxiv.org/abs/1204.4483 is a fun paper which compares different ways of constructing reals.
16:11:10 <nakilon> got suspended on reddit for saying that they suspend for reasons not stated in their rules
16:13:00 <nakilon> (of course there is no rule against saying what I said)
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16:27:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * Dominicentek *  uploaded "[[File:ImagePath - Truth Machine.png]]"
16:28:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * Dominicentek *  uploaded "[[File:ImagePath - Cat Program.png]]"
16:29:45 <esolangs> [[ImagePath]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89025 * Dominicentek * (+2595) Created page with "ImagePath is an esoteric programming language created by Dominicentek for Truttle1's Visuals Esojam. It has a pointer that executes pixels in an image as instructions. Path is..."
16:30:55 <esolangs> [[User:Dominicentek]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89026&oldid=87955 * Dominicentek * (+26) 
16:32:00 <esolangs> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89027&oldid=88948 * Dominicentek * (+16) /* I */
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17:22:48 <esolangs> [[User:Hakerh400/Ideal programming language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89028 * Hakerh400 * (+9570) Created page with "== Requirements ==  The more requirements from this list a language satisfies, the better language it is (more useful). Below is my opinion about some popular programming lang..."
17:23:53 <esolangs> [[User:Hakerh400]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89029&oldid=89016 * Hakerh400 * (+89) 
17:27:47 <esolangs> [[Composite]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89030&oldid=88486 * ArthroStar11 * (-43) fixed typo and updated interpreter link
17:28:48 <esolangs> [[User:ArthroStar11]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89031&oldid=88966 * ArthroStar11 * (-41) updated link to Composite
17:36:32 <esolangs> [[User:Hakerh400/Ideal programming language]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89032&oldid=89028 * Hakerh400 * (+163) Add Java
17:37:33 <esolangs> [[User:Hakerh400/Ideal programming language]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89033&oldid=89032 * Hakerh400 * (+21) 
17:55:40 <b_jonas> Taneb: not from experience, in that I never tried to formalize reals in Agda or other proof systems. 
17:57:28 <b_jonas> (also not from experience in that I didn't invent real numbers, you did)
18:00:54 <b_jonas> "ah, I've not yet proven that convergent series are limitedah, I've not yet proven that convergent series are limited" => no, what you need is that Cauchy sequences are bounded. you don't need to even define convergent sequences until later, when you have real numbers.
18:01:10 <Corbin> One can get pretty far with functions N -> 2 or N -> N depending on what one wants. To get good convergence, use something like continued logarithms (for N -> 2) or continued fractions (for N -> N).
18:01:16 <b_jonas> "seq is convergent iff forall positive rational epsilon, there exists an N such that"for all m, n > N, |seq[m]-seq[n]| < epsilon" => yeah, that's a Cauchy sequence
18:01:41 <Corbin> Actually *writing* a formal library that proves facts and is correct is hard, but the conceptual part is straightforward enough.
18:01:57 <b_jonas> "continued logarithms" => what?
18:03:19 <Corbin> Like continued fractions, but with multiplication and division. They were described by Gosper in the same memo as their algorithms for continued fractions.
18:03:41 <Corbin> https://carma.newcastle.edu.au/resources/jon/clogs.pdf is an example fun paper about them.
18:04:39 <Corbin> Actually, this paper's great because it shows one way to build a correspondence between the N -> 2 and N -> N spaces by using the latter as run-length-encoding of the former.
18:08:17 <Taneb> b_jonas: I was keeping the same vocabulary as Franciman there
18:12:52 <Corbin> sprout_: It can be taken as an axiom (the "Turing axiom" IIRC?) that the reals are computable. IIUC the resulting real numbers are sufficiently smooth for typical work, but I'm not sure; looking for references.
18:14:49 <Corbin> Ah, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church%27s_thesis_(constructive_mathematics) is the axiom. We must give up LEM, but that's fine constructively.
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19:02:15 <myname> today i learned about the rado graph. surely, there is an esolang just hiding in there
19:19:55 <nakilon> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y_nmpv-9lI
19:20:56 <nakilon> I'm not sure how the sqrt method works but I see another method that has no rejection and has only two random() calls, not three, like the rest of the methods he showed
19:28:17 <nakilon> a = rand(); b = rand(); if (a < b) then { r = b; angle = a / b } else { r = 1 - b; angle = (1 - a) / b }
19:34:14 <riv> wow
19:34:43 <nakilon> oh, angle *= 2*pi after that 
19:34:48 <riv> never seen this way
19:38:16 <nakilon> and  / (1 - b), not / b , in the second branch
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21:12:45 <imode> can you do an if/else if/else if/.../else structure in brainfuck?
21:13:11 <imode> I feel like I've had this answered before..
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21:16:09 <imode> I know you can do if/else pairs and by extension if/else chains.
21:16:31 <oerjan> imode: hm i did a case match when i wrote mbfi the other day, that's pretty close.
21:16:32 <imode> but I feel like you can't just arbitrarily insert new conditions without having continual nesting.
21:16:41 <imode> oerjan: mbfi?
21:16:50 <oerjan> ^wiki mbfi
21:16:57 <oerjan> hum
21:17:03 <oerjan> `wiki mbfi
21:17:04 <HackEso> https://esolangs.org/wiki/mbfi
21:17:11 <oerjan> fungot!!!!!!
21:17:35 <oerjan> although i borrowed the method from cgbfi
21:18:03 <oerjan> basically you set a flag first, and the first condition to match clears it.
21:18:25 <imode> how is that phrased generally? it looks like nested if/else chains to me.
21:18:36 <oerjan> yes.
21:18:47 <imode> ah. yeah.. I was hoping something like...
21:19:24 <oerjan> you want to avoid increasing nesting level?
21:19:26 <imode> <condition> if <b1> else <condition> if <b2> else if ... else <false> end
21:19:28 <imode> yeah.
21:19:33 <imode> just straight linear.
21:19:59 <oerjan> well you can do that with flags too, i should think
21:20:00 <imode> you can do it if you add an additional conditional "break" instruction but that's cheating.
21:20:16 <imode> I don't think you can, because there always has to be some check, and checking induces nesting.
21:20:37 <imode> i.e "if this didn't run, run that".
21:20:44 <imode> "and if _that_ didn't run, run that."
21:21:00 <oerjan> no, you still need just a flag
21:21:11 <imode> fwiw I'm working in a different language but the structural syntax is the same (looping).
21:21:27 <oerjan> "if the flag wasn't cleared, run that." "if it's _still_ not cleared, run that."
21:22:14 <imode> so in FV3 this looks like (condition) 1[<[0<] (true) 00<]<[ (false) 0<]
21:23:28 <oerjan> dbfi the super golfed one doesn't nest. although it uses a loop to get started.
21:23:29 <imode> we enqueue the flag as a 1 for later, we check the condition, if it's true, recall the flag, drop it (that's [0<]), do the body, then push a 0.
21:23:48 <imode> then the latter loop recalls the flag and then does the normal conditional check.
21:23:59 <imode> i.e if it's 1 then enter the loop otherwise it's don't.
21:24:18 <imode> I guess you could have a double-loop inside of every else-if case..
21:24:18 <oerjan> yeah
21:24:47 <oerjan> well you need _some_ nesting, just not an arbitrary amount.
21:27:12 <imode> (cond_1) 1[<[0<] (true_1) 00<]<[ (cond_2) 1[<[0<] (true_2) 00<]]<[ (cond_3) 1[<[0<] (true_3) 00<]]<[ ...
21:27:22 <imode> that makes sense.
21:27:23 <oerjan> you may have some additional inefficiency if i understand that you need to go around the queue to recheck the flag
21:27:47 <imode> think of the queue as a tape. < and > move it left and right, you just insert to the left of the head when you do 0 and 1.
21:27:53 <imode> to recall it, just move the tape to the left.
21:27:57 <oerjan> ok
21:28:07 <imode> hmm.
21:28:12 <imode> so you need two levels of nesting.
21:28:22 <imode> that's better than arbitrary.
21:28:49 <imode> ehhhhhhh that won't work.
21:29:00 <imode> you still need if/else because what happens if the first branch is 0.
21:29:14 <imode> you'll consume the flag and end up with a 'tape underflow'.
21:29:29 <imode> lame.
21:31:04 <imode> what if you used two flags at the start and swapped between them. that could work.
21:31:34 <imode> ehh no it wouldn't.. you need some kind of `dup-bit` between everything.
21:32:19 <imode> which is easy. it's just 1[<[0<]1<1<00<]<[0<0<0<]
21:33:33 <oerjan> mhm
21:33:36 <imode> 1[<[0<]11<00<]<[00<0<] would be better as it leaves the bit under the tape head and the copy to the left of it.
21:34:36 <imode> so you'd compute the condition, the initial branch would either fire or not, and if it did, it'd leave a 0, which signals the rest of the branches to not fire.
21:35:19 <oerjan> well you should leave a 0 or a 1, always, until you're through the branches
21:35:23 <imode> right.
21:35:54 <imode> and from there you could do else-if chaining by duping the bit, doing a [ (condition) [... 0<] 0<]
21:36:38 <imode> ehhh I need to think about that a little more.
21:37:21 <imode> first branch sends "yes I fired", rest of the branches should get and propagate a 0 until the terminal branch chomps it.
21:38:14 <imode> first branch sends "I failed to fire", next branch gets a "1", computes the condition, if the condition is true, rest of the branches get a "0", otherwise it passes a "1" flag onto the next branch.
21:42:29 <imode> https://hastebin.com/raw/zejamacaxa
21:42:31 <imode> somethin' like this.
21:43:12 <imode> need to add the point where you drop the bit, but.
21:46:20 <oerjan> this is in some sense the opposite of something i noticed when writing mbfi
21:46:59 <imode> oh?
21:47:20 <oerjan> that often in brainfuck it is more efficient to encode your status by your position relative to a flag than by changing the flag itself.
21:47:42 <imode> that makes sense, because you have a fixed background of cells.
21:48:15 <imode> you can litter the background with 1s and then move there.
21:48:25 <oerjan> (i noticed that cgbfi spent a lot of time calculating flags, while i could avoid that because i had better spacing of temporary cells)
21:49:20 <imode> yeah. this is a deque automata though, so the background is "variable". I don't have fixed positions unless I make them.
21:49:26 <oerjan> right
21:50:31 <imode> https://hastebin.com/raw/piyozagako
21:50:33 <imode> this should be it.
21:50:41 <oerjan> ok maybe "i noticed" is the wrong word, because the parser of dbfi also used that method heavily.
21:50:56 <oerjan> *pair of words
21:51:48 <oerjan> if you say so.  i cannot really read it :P
21:52:01 <imode> sorry I'm in matrix-mode. "I don't even see the code".
21:52:32 <imode>  "<1[<[0<]1<1<0<]<[0<0<0<]" <-- this bit recalls the flag and leaves two copies of it at top of the queue.
21:53:26 <imode> the [ ... 0<] around each of the conditions and branches checks that. if it's a 1, we drop the copy of the flag, compute whatever condition fired..
21:53:49 <imode> ...and if that condition was _true_, then we do the branch associated with that condition and then set the flag to 0, _otherwise_ we do nothing and we set the flag to 1.
21:54:03 <imode> then it moves to the next branch and we dup the flag... etc. etc. until else.
21:54:14 <imode> which is branch_false.
21:56:13 <oerjan> right
22:06:18 <imode> though I'll say that this is far more code to do the same thing...
22:11:51 <imode> tbf I'd probably just do the nesting. if it's a switch/case I imagine you could work out a far more general form from that.
22:12:39 <imode> like just do the equality check for every branch ahead of time and then just compute boom boom boom boom boom.
22:14:31 <imode> like the general form would be (value) (dup-value) (const_1) (equal) (right) (dup-value) (const_2) (equal) (right) ... (dup-value) (const_N) (equal) (right) <[ (branch_1) 0<] <[ (branch_2) 0<] ... <[ (branch_N) 0<]
22:14:45 <imode> so you'd generate something like 0000001000000 and each branch would grab a bit.
22:14:58 <imode> and which ever branch got the 1 gets to execute.
22:15:21 <imode> you can generate that because the switch/case form is always constant equality.
22:15:37 <imode> so you could even replace (equal) with a piece of code to recognize the value bit-for-bit.
22:16:54 <oerjan> this is in some sense closer to what dbfi did, although without nesting.
22:17:07 <imode> precomputing conditions?
22:18:14 <oerjan> it makes the length of a field of padding longer by the value tested
22:18:53 <oerjan> then goes to the end, and goes left one step with each branch
22:18:59 <imode> aha.
22:19:06 <imode> yeah, that sounds closer to the above.
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22:44:53 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Squidmanescape *  New user account
22:52:23 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89034&oldid=89017 * Squidmanescape * (+544) /* Introductions */
22:53:28 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89035 * Squidmanescape * (+108) Created page with "Hello! I am Squidmanescape, and I like Gray Snail!  ==Accounts== *[https://github.com/Ramanuj-Sarkar Github]"
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23:10:55 <esolangs> [[JSMeth]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89036&oldid=78899 * CoffeeHax17 * (-69) 
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23:34:45 <esolangs> [[ImagePath]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89037&oldid=89025 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) /* Examples */ make images clearer
23:52:39 <esolangs> [[Greg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89038&oldid=88919 * TheJonyMyster * (-8) 
23:58:05 <esolangs> [[Gray Snail]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89039&oldid=75313 * Squidmanescape * (+2725) I wrote some stuff. I hope to write more.

2021-10-25:

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00:33:39 <esolangs> [[Pig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89040&oldid=81197 * Squidmanescape * (+316) I think this interpreter also works.
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06:37:43 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89041&oldid=88897 * Squidmanescape * (+43) /* Gravity */
07:10:35 <esolangs> [[Bogus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89042&oldid=89019 * DivergentClouds * (-1) fixed typo from substract to subtract
07:14:45 <zzo38> Does the IRC log format deal with leap seconds?
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07:27:41 <riv> why did you ask about leap seconds?
07:27:55 <riv> i think the irc log format is separate, whatever time the system thinks it is will be used
07:38:17 <esolangs> [[Gray Snail]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89043&oldid=89039 * Squidmanescape * (+137) 
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08:58:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: you can decide whether you consider it to deal with leap seconds or not, because all the delays make the timestamps not accurate enough to really know that
08:58:33 <b_jonas> that's if you mean fizzie's raw logs
09:15:07 <riv> yes a good way to solve this problem is not to have seconds at all
09:23:46 <fizzie> Well FWIW the format I'm using doesn't really "deal" with them, in the sense that what I'm storing is based on `std::chrono::system_clock::now().time_since_epoch()`, which on the system follows the usual Unix convention of either repeating or skipping leap seconds.
09:23:55 <fizzie> (I've kind of been considering using leap second smearing too, but I don't think it'd really make a practical difference in anything I'm doing.)
09:25:47 <riv> did you hear about this gpsd bug that just got fixed in time https://gitlab.com/gpsd/gpsd/-/issues/144
09:33:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Kmakes *  New user account
09:39:26 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89044&oldid=89034 * Kmakes * (+477) My introduction
09:39:49 <esolangs> [[Cthulhu]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89045&oldid=70596 * Kmakes * (+76) Introducing a new C# interpreter for the Cthulhu language.
09:40:45 <esolangs> [[Cthulhu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89046&oldid=89045 * Kmakes * (+1) Fixing newline
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10:26:00 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89047&oldid=89027 * Kemuri * (+16) /* H */
10:26:46 <esolangs> [[Hoverfly]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89048&oldid=88982 * Kemuri * (+0) /* defining object */
10:35:01 <riv> leap second smearing was a new concept to me
11:20:30 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * MattiDragon *  New user account
11:26:09 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89049&oldid=89044 * MattiDragon * (+209) /* Introductions */
11:38:07 <riv> btw, ive been hearing about TAI a lot
11:38:12 <riv> international atomic time
11:38:14 <riv> but in french
11:38:29 <riv> it basically is just UTC without any leap seconds, so it always increases at 1 second per second
11:44:16 <fizzie> Unrelated, but it's kind of fun how the letters of UTC were deliberately chosen to match neither /coordinated universal time/ nor /temps universel coordonné/.
12:02:09 <nakilon> wtf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Typing_Championship
12:02:23 <nakilon> "163-110 wpm, setting an unofficial world record"
12:02:47 <nakilon> it's just like 900 chars per minute
12:04:19 <nakilon> I mean... okay, it's close enough to real but so far from real records
12:05:16 <nakilon> I just expected something better because top participants of klavogonki.ru usuallt go for 1100-1300
12:06:49 <fizzie> It'd be 975 characters/minute on their test text, and I think a lot depends on how those things get measured.
12:08:25 <fizzie> Apparently they picked the competitors from https://www.typrx.com/ leaderboards.
12:08:50 <nakilon> ok maybe those were lies, the klavogonki wiki only mention the records of 1070
12:09:48 <fizzie> (Which goes up to 258.8 wpm in the "hall of fame" section, but I imagine that's just individual "races", not their average speeds.)
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12:48:19 <esolangs> [[TEPCS]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89050&oldid=88963 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+25) Amended the description of comments by supplying an omitted ecphoneme (!).
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13:16:29 <esolangs> [[Tiltedc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89051&oldid=85558 * Rphii * (+91) add implementation link
13:17:02 <esolangs> [[User:Rphii]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89052&oldid=88984 * Rphii * (+4) /* My languages */
13:24:18 <esolangs> [[SRL++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89053 * MattiDragon * (+4675) Create page
13:27:57 <nakilon> I wonder what would be the most simple converter of markdown files with crosslinks to html pages; resulting in something looking like wiki but read only for its internet viewer; something like this https://github.com/adam-p/markdown-here hmmm looks abandoned
13:30:58 <esolangs> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89054&oldid=89047 * MattiDragon * (+12) Added SRL++
13:33:22 <nakilon> looks like pandoc can do that
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14:17:32 <esolangs> [[Tiltedc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89055&oldid=89051 * Rphii * (-4) /* Implementation */ I didn't make an interpreter
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17:34:21 <zzo38> I think the way to deal with leap seconds (if any message is sent during a leap second) is for the UNIX timestamp to repeat the previous second and for the number of the smaller part of seconds to add one second to that number instead.
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18:35:33 <esolangs> [[Talk:Not a brainfuck derivative]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89056&oldid=51004 * Matthilde * (+129) /* wtf is this? */
19:10:13 <esolangs> [[Talk:Not a brainfuck derivative]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89057&oldid=89056 * Corbin * (+183) /* wtf is this? */ The obvious answer.
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20:06:58 <riv> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-EBCDIC
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21:09:45 <esolangs> [[Talk:Emojifunge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89058 * Maikeru51 * (+378) Created page with "== New Commands ==  I would like to add the command  to pop a value of the top of the stack and print it's corresponding ascii character. However, I don't know the correct..."
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22:36:17 <esolangs> [[Cammy]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89059&oldid=88512 * Corbin * (-404) /* Implementation */ Update for rewritten toolchain.
22:43:16 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * Corbin *  uploaded "[[File:Pngout.png]]": An example of the Burning Ship fractal, drawn with Cammy.  $ cammy-simplify hive/ <hive/demo/burning-ship.cammy >test.cammy $ cammy-draw test.cammy '-1.8 -0.08 -1.7 0.02' 1920 1080 test.png $ pngcrush test.png
22:45:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move  * Corbin *  moved [[File:Pngout.png]] to [[File:Cammy-ship.png]]: For some reason, the uploaded name didn't correctly apply. Let's try a move.
22:46:55 <esolangs> [[File:Cammy-ship.png]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89063&oldid=89061 * Corbin * (+17) /* Summary */ Fix formatting.
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22:53:59 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89064&oldid=89059 * Corbin * (+469) /* cammy-draw */ Add the output of the cammy-draw example as an image.
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23:46:14 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89065&oldid=88466 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) /* Array Manipulation */ fix cats
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2021-10-26:

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01:11:39 <int-e> Hmm, maybe chroma isn't quite as impossible as it seemed at first...
01:15:29 <b_jonas> int-e: it's good when a puzzle feels that way
01:15:53 <int-e> I still wish the levels were smaller though
01:16:45 <int-e> Simply because I prefer solving ten small levels in two hours than solving one big one.
01:16:54 <zzo38> What size do you want?
01:16:54 <int-e> s/than/to/
01:17:53 <int-e> something where solutions are 50-200 moves rather than 500-2000 :P
01:18:28 <int-e> Anyway, progress: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/chroma.png
01:22:35 <zzo38> I prefer Hero Hearts myself (some levels do need 2000 moves or more, but many need many less moves). I also like to make up my own levels and classes of objects
01:25:44 <zzo38> You can also try to make up your own smaller levels in Chroma too I suppose, if you want to do
01:26:44 <zzo38> These are of a class of puzzle games involving grid based turn based level based puzzle games with deterministic rules
01:26:55 <zzo38> Which others are there? Probably there are many
01:37:50 <int-e> there are a ton of sokoban derivatives
01:40:04 <zzo38> Yes, there are many games like that, but do you have a list? There is also some game where there isn't pushing other objects around but still meets the other criteria
01:43:28 <zzo38> (Also have you made up your own?)
01:46:53 <int-e> No, I don't have a list. A Monster's Expedition, Fish Fillets, XSok, small ones like Vertebrae, 5 Step Steve... there are many more that I forgot. And many games have (easy) Sokoban puzzles as minigames.
01:48:19 <int-e> and "grid-based" is too broad to even consider an enumeration... it includes stuff like Rush Hour which has moving pieces but no agent. Even the 15 puzzle is grid-based.
01:48:35 <zzo38> Another game I have played is Sokoball, which is similar to Sokoban in some ways, but once a box is placed on a target, the box disappears so that you can now walk over it and put another box there too; there are also some new pieces such as arrows to walk only one way, and tiles that cause all other tiles in a line with it ti slide toward you, etc.
01:48:52 <int-e> Though I guess in that case you can think of the empty space as the agent.
01:49:12 <int-e> (With the power to swap places with an adjacent piece)
01:49:25 <int-e> And no, I have not tried to make my own puzzles.
01:49:35 <zzo38> Xsok is more general in that you can define your own kind of pieces, although it is rather limited.
01:52:43 <zzo38> There is a Game Boy Advance game called "Brain N Bells"; I have the source code too. That game has no pushable objects (although since the source code is available, such objects could be added).
01:53:26 <oerjan> int-e: it seems we will very soon see whether my guild hall theory is correct
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01:55:23 <int-e> no logistics problem, sadly... those replicas are too good
01:56:22 <zzo38> I want to port Chroma, Brain N Bells, and other games to Free Hero Mesh too. A converter could also be made Xsok -> Free Hero Mesh, maybe (as long as the pictures are square and can be changed to the required palette, if necessary; I haven't checked the palettes). (Maybe better graphics can also be made for Xsok since I think the included ones aren't very good)
01:57:44 <int-e> I guess Baba is You would also make the list. But Recursed wouldn't because it has platforming elements.
01:58:39 <zzo38> Platform elements are accepiable if it still uses a rectangular grid and is turn based rather than time based
02:00:00 <int-e> hmm
02:00:32 <esolangs> [[SRL++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89066&oldid=89053 * TheJonyMyster * (+0) bear => beer
02:00:51 <int-e> so if all coordinates are exact pixels...
02:00:52 <int-e> :P
02:03:10 <int-e> Anyway, no, Recursed has grid-based level layouts but boxes can be pushed horizontally by pixels, and jumping is smooth and there's a timing element to jumps (mainly because you can throw stuff mid jump)
02:04:07 <zzo38> OK.
02:06:20 <int-e> err, s/pushed/placed/
02:07:08 <int-e> (you move boxes by picking them up, carrying them to another place, then putting them down; it's not sokoban-like at all, really)
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02:22:14 <ais523> I finished writing the world's fastest FizzBuzz: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/236630
02:22:32 <ais523> it has reminded me to complain about the x86(-64) CPUID instruction
02:22:51 <ais523> I'm not sure how it's possible to design an API like that
02:23:22 <ais523> specifically, there are a number of possible CPUID commands, some of which will and some of which won't be implemented on any given CPU
02:24:04 <ais523> they're divided into two sets, "normal" and "extended" (the former have small numbers, the larger have small numbers except with 0x8000000 added)
02:24:41 <ais523> if you try to use a command that isn't implemented, but its number is lower than another command in the same set, it returns all-zeroes
02:25:01 <ais523> if you try to use a command that isn't implemented and its number is *higher* than any other implemented command in the same set, it returns garbage, rather than all-zeroes
02:25:40 <ais523> so you have to use a special CPUID command, CPUID command 0 or 0x80000000, to ask for the highest implemented command, before you can safely call any of the others
02:26:46 <ais523> the CPUs clearly know what their maximum implemented command is – why not make all the unimplemented ones return zeroes, rather than only the commands whose number is less than a particular number that you have to always have to ask for
02:27:29 <ais523> oh, also all these commands have four return values, which they return in eax, ebx, ecx, edx, even though you probably only wanted one of those values (and ebx is a call-preserved register and gets clobbered anyway)
02:28:26 <ais523> the other weird thing is that CPUID does a pipeline flush as a side effect, which is just strange (there are less side-effecty ways to get the same effect, and no particular reason you'd want to do a pipeline flush and CPUID at the same time)
02:29:19 <ais523> maybe it's the oldest way to do a pipeline flush, and the more sensible ways only exist on newer processors
02:30:40 <ais523> …actually, maybe it really is the only way, the other instructions only seem to flush subsets of the pipeline, rather than *everything*
02:30:46 <ais523> still makes no sense though
02:55:25 <ais523> (now I'm wondering why you'd ever want to flush the entire CPU pipeline, rather than just the bits of it you cared about)
03:06:27 <zzo38> Some games include solutions; that is helpful if reimplementing it in Free Hero Mesh since then the autotest mode can be used, to verify that the implementation is correct.
03:06:45 <zzo38> I think that the modern x86 is too complicated designed
03:08:38 <ais523> I don't like how prefix-heavy the instruction set is
03:08:43 <ais523> it isn't Huffman-coded very well
03:09:14 <ais523> also I don't know how to feel about `lea` in particular
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03:09:49 <zzo38> (I think the old x86 (8088) isn't quite too bad, though)
03:13:14 <ais523> it is obviously possible to do a lot better, but backwards compatibility is an important selling point
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03:26:28 <ais523> …out of all the "move with sign-extension" opcodes, why is 32-bit to 32-bit the one with the shortest encoding? that one isn't even useful
03:26:46 <ais523> and there's a note in the manual saying that you should just use a regular move instead
03:28:21 <ais523> the instruction seems to have been newly added on x86-64, and they picked one of the few one-byte opcodes for *that*
03:29:06 <ais523> (you can prefix it into a 32-bit to 64-bit sign-extend, but it's completely useless without the prefix)
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08:03:11 <nakilon> 04:16:45 <int-e> Simply because I prefer solving ten small levels in two hours than solving one big one. -- but the thing is that you sometimes need to drag some item from one room to another one
08:03:16 <nakilon> at least in XOR
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08:05:59 <riv> nice fizzbuzz
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08:46:00 <nakilon> the most stupid thing in reddit ban is that I'm unable to add new mods to my cats subreddit -- later they'll just remove it "because being unmoderated"
08:49:50 <nakilon> together with inability to even report content the ban is obviously isn't something to protect the website from something bad but rather opposite -- it's a tool for admins to express their hate and to ruin the community that users build
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09:30:45 <riv> that's a shame
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12:55:01 <nakilon> thanks to someone on this channel who mentioned Oracle Cloud -- I've just migrated to there from Yandex Cloud since that doesn't have server Free Tier
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16:53:10 <esolangs> [[EPL Main]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89067&oldid=88452 * Aboba228 * (+18) /* Hello, world Program for Windows */
16:53:50 <esolangs> [[Sleep]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89068 * PixelatedStarfish * (+34) Created page with "[http://sleep.dashnine.org/ Sleep]"
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17:11:38 <esolangs> [[EPL Main]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89069&oldid=89067 * Timofeyka * (-18) Undo revision 89067 by [[Special:Contributions/Aboba228|Aboba228]] ([[User talk:Aboba228|talk]])
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17:31:56 <esolangs> [[Jaune]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89070&oldid=88853 * CoffeeHax17 * (+115) /* Interpreters */
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17:47:28 <esolangs> [[User:CoffeeHax17]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89071&oldid=78797 * CoffeeHax17 * (+55) /* Hi there! */
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18:07:14 <esolangs> [[JSMeth]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89072&oldid=89036 * CoffeeHax17 * (+886) Added Tape JavaScript constructor
18:13:09 <esolangs> [[JSMeth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89073&oldid=89072 * CoffeeHax17 * (-27) Removed category
18:13:38 <esolangs> [[JSMeth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89074&oldid=89073 * CoffeeHax17 * (-2) 
18:14:25 <riv> hmm
18:14:36 <riv> you can make a compiler frmo an interpreter and vice versa
18:15:29 <riv> if our platform is the language B, and the host language is L. let c : B -> L be a compiler, and i : B -> () be an interpreter (not a pure function)
18:16:53 <riv> correction c : L -> 
18:16:55 <riv> correction c : L -> B
18:17:34 <riv> given a self interpreter for self : B -> (), then you can do: i'(program) = self(c(program))
18:18:56 <riv> other way, let "i" : L be the source code for the interpreter i, then c(program) = "i"(program)
18:19:15 <riv> so the fake interpreter compiles the program and runs a self interpreter
18:19:26 <riv> the fake compiler just sticks the interpreter and input program together
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18:25:04 <riv> i guess you can iterate this
18:25:13 <olsner> are you rediscovering the futamura projection?
18:25:30 <riv> take an interpreter and make it worse/slower by adding a level of compilation and self-interpretation
18:28:55 <riv> this is much simpler and easier to implement than futamura
18:29:12 <riv> bbut it makes things worse instead of better
18:31:30 <Corbin> Futamura's reasoning shouldn't require a good specializer. Like, you should be able to make a slow compiler-compiler in the same fashion.
18:32:31 <riv> fair enough
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18:38:18 * sprout mumbles something about theory and practice
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18:40:32 <riv> say that again clearer?
18:45:08 <sprout> the requirements usually differ for interpreters and compilers.  the biggest difference is that for interpreters you usually want zero overhead to start interpreting,  compilers it's the opposite
18:45:52 <sprout> right? for a compiler you usually don't care that much that it takes minutes to compile something,  with interpreters it's the exact opposite
18:46:08 <esolangs> [[Tiltedc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89075&oldid=89055 * Rphii * (+144) /* Disadvantages */ con: file size
18:46:57 <riv> yes that's a nice view
18:47:13 <sprout> though I have to admit something like Haskell seems to be very good at marrying both requirements
18:47:19 <sprout> *ghc
18:47:21 <riv> if you measure the overhead of the setup and the execution
18:47:32 <riv> that tells you whether something is an interpreter or compiler
18:47:46 <riv> more overhead in execution means interpreter, more overhead in setup means compiler
18:48:00 <sprout> something like that yah
18:48:05 <riv> never thought about it this way before
18:50:23 <esolangs> [[Tiltedc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89076&oldid=89075 * Rphii * (+245) /* Advantages */ pro: looks (and more)
18:50:58 <esolangs> [[Jaune]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89077&oldid=89070 * CoffeeHax17 * (+2) /* Multiplier */  Replaced code. Previous jaune programme would loop indefinitely for value 1 of 1st cell.
19:01:17 <esolangs> [[Jaune]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89078&oldid=89077 * CoffeeHax17 * (-6610) Removed common lisp implementation code. The source is very long and takes the focus away from the language itself. Please add a link with the source code instead if necessary.
19:18:00 <esolangs> [[JSMeth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89079&oldid=89074 * CoffeeHax17 * (+1) /* Real JavaScript implementation */
19:30:20 <b_jonas> sprout: I don't think that's true. you could have a high-level language that is interpreted but also requires significant preprocessing of the whole program. 
19:33:40 <b_jonas> riv: just imagine a Haskell interpreter: not only does it have to read the whole program because names can be defined in any order and referenced earlier, but also may have to typecheck the whole program to figure out what instance to use in any one place, 
19:33:53 <b_jonas> and if you use enough extensions for Haskell, that typechecking could take a lot of time
19:55:14 <sprout> b_jonas: but then it would fail to meet a simple requirement for an interpreter.  which is "start running the program as fast as possible"
19:55:36 <sprout> which is,  of course,  a requirement I invented.  but feels plausible
19:58:14 <b_jonas> you can request that, but not all interpreters can do that, and there can be languages (like Haskell) where it's not possible, probably even esolangs where it's not possible even for a typical program (as opposed to only evil programs in Haskell)
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20:07:16 <sprout> sure,  but then I would argue those aren't interpreters in the conventional/pragmatic sense
20:07:26 <sprout> let's agree to disagree
20:10:53 <b_jonas> sprout: you can certainly say that, I just don't understand the framing where that's the distinction between a compiler and an interpreter
20:12:12 <Corbin> sprout: A fast GLSL interpreter typically compiles to GPU-specific native code before execution, as a counterexample.
20:12:28 <sprout> emphasis on 'fast'
20:12:51 <Corbin> Well, your requirement is where "fast" comes from. It's not a theoretical requirement, but one borne from software engineering.
20:13:23 <sprout> it's just an observation.  you do care that Python doesn't spend minutes compiling scripts before you run them,  for C++ not so much
20:14:31 <Corbin> I suppose that this is one reason why Futamura's projections are nice. They cut through this problem by showing that compilers are specialized interpreters, creating an interpreter-compiler relationship which doesn't care about relative speeds.
20:14:52 <tm512> I wouldn't say that an interpreter has to begin execution as fast as possible. there might be cases where you don't want that, like maybe to achieve improved performance when the code is actually running
20:15:55 <tm512> like it'd be faster to just start interpreting source code directly rather than compiling to bytecode first, but a bytecode intepreter generally achieves better performance after the initial compile overhead
20:16:19 <sprout> I am going to hold my ground on this!
20:16:55 <tm512> for something very simple that's executed often, you might want to skip bytecode compilation, but if it's something that only starts up infrequently and runs for a long while, the extra startup time could be worth the tradeoff
20:17:27 <Corbin> sprout: I agree that, as an engineering principle, an interactive environment ought to be low-latency. But there's just too many counterexamples if we try to make it formal.
20:17:54 <tm512> but with a lot of stuff you can precompile the bytecode, so like a source code or AST interpreter is never really necessary afaict
20:18:14 <Corbin> Suppose that an interpreter sorts its input program somehow before executing (e.g. as in BASIC); would you say that an interpreter is not a real interpreter if it uses a suboptimal sorting algorithm?
20:18:19 <sprout> Corbin: apart from some general observation that there's some trade-off there possibly
20:19:27 <sprout> something about all abstractions go wrong
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02:59:16 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89080 * PixelatedStarfish * (+602) Created page with "'''Bedtime''' is a language by [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] that is influenced by languages that use English words to describe a program, like [[Beatnik]], [[Shakespeare]], A...."
02:59:42 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89081&oldid=89080 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) 
03:02:51 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89082&oldid=89081 * PixelatedStarfish * (+423) 
03:03:32 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89083&oldid=89082 * PixelatedStarfish * (+7) /* Syntax */
03:03:46 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89084&oldid=89083 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Syntax */
03:05:07 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89085&oldid=89084 * PixelatedStarfish * (+355) /* Syntax */
03:06:06 <zzo38> Why don't you like Hero Hearts? I don't really like Chroma that much either; I like Hero Hearts.
03:06:15 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89086&oldid=89085 * PixelatedStarfish * (+534) /* Operation Codes */
03:07:46 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89087&oldid=89086 * PixelatedStarfish * (+102) 
03:08:57 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89088&oldid=89087 * PixelatedStarfish * (+22) 
03:09:07 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89089&oldid=89088 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Error Messages */
03:10:11 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89090&oldid=89089 * PixelatedStarfish * (+70) /* Error Messages */
03:10:48 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89091&oldid=89090 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Error Messages */
03:13:19 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89092&oldid=89014 * PixelatedStarfish * (+94) /* Unimplemented Languages */
03:13:42 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89093&oldid=89092 * PixelatedStarfish * (+13) /* In Chronological Order */
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05:22:44 <zzo38> About interpreters/compilers, different programming languages work differently. For example, some will compile into internal P-codes in memory and then interpret them, some use native codes, and some are things in between.
05:22:59 <zzo38> But some programs will instead parse and execute commands as they are reached.
05:25:08 <zzo38> Although a program could combine the interpreter with the program, that isn't real compiling and is not going to be as fast as a native code.
05:25:30 <zzo38> Hybrid systems are also possible, e.g. to compile into native code but also include the interpreter in order that eval etc will work
05:26:56 <Corbin> Different languages, or different implementations?
05:28:27 <zzo38> It could be either
05:30:32 <zzo38> Some might do the compiling into P-codes as a part of the execution, and an implementation might also support JIT compilation. For example, in PostScript, each token is then convert to a object and then executed as it is encounted; objects can also be executed in other ways. It would be possible for the "executeonly" operator to optimize a procedure if there are no aliases to it, although I don't know if any implementation actually does
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12:11:14 <riv> what was that unicode number? 1115111 or something
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12:51:20 <oerjan> > maxBound :: Char -- riv
12:51:21 <lambdabot>  '\1114111'
12:51:40 <riv> thanks!
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13:26:03 <fizzie> Oh, are Haskell character literal escapes in decimal? 
13:27:07 <fizzie> I sort of always assume if there's a leading backslash and no x or u or whatnot, it must be in octal.
13:28:02 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89094&oldid=89091 * PixelatedStarfish * (-5) /* Operation Codes */
13:29:36 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89095&oldid=89094 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Operation Codes */
13:38:38 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89096&oldid=89095 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Operation Codes */
13:38:56 <nakilon> gemified the terminal thingy https://github.com/Nakilon/shelenium
13:40:04 <nakilon> in Ruby octal just start with 0
13:40:39 <nakilon> ``` ruby -e "p 011"
13:40:45 <HackEso> 9
13:41:41 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89097&oldid=89096 * PixelatedStarfish * (+16) 
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13:52:58 <oerjan> > '\x10ffff' -- fizzie 
13:52:59 <lambdabot>  '\1114111'
13:54:20 <oerjan> > '\o4177777'
13:54:21 <lambdabot>  '\1114111'
13:58:49 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89098&oldid=89097 * PixelatedStarfish * (-6) /* Syntax */
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13:59:21 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89099&oldid=89098 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Operation Codes */
14:01:03 <fizzie> Well, yes, for *integer* literals you assume decimal unless it starts with a zero.
14:01:12 <fizzie> But numeric character escapes are a different thing.
14:01:40 <oerjan> > 011
14:01:42 <lambdabot>  11
14:01:51 <oerjan> > 0x11
14:01:52 <lambdabot>  17
14:02:05 <wib_jonas> `ruby -ep "\162", 0162.chr, 114.chr # nakilon: in ruby, backslash followed by number in a string is octal escape, just as in C
14:02:07 <HackEso> ​"r" \ "r" \ "r"
14:03:34 <nakilon> oh didn't realise you don't have to put all the code in brackets
14:03:53 <wib_jonas> octal was much more popular back when C was invented than it is now, which is why the simple notations 0162 and "\162" default to octal in it. we're sort of trying to get rid of the 0162 thing now, but it's not easy. what should 0162 mean? should it be decimal, in which case if you copy octal literals from a C program they cause a mistake? octal,
14:03:53 <wib_jonas> in which case you can't pad your numbers with zeroes? one of those but with a warning? an error? different languages chose different paths.
14:04:49 <nakilon> yeah I didn't notice that \ was inside ''
14:17:20 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89100&oldid=89099 * PixelatedStarfish * (+19) /* Syntax */
14:18:25 <nakilon> velik do you prefer decimal or octal?
14:18:35 <velik>  their run was by there is gold out like my files are trained to control
14:19:36 <nakilon> I have an idea how make his talking algorithm several times simpler but hopefully more grammatically correct
14:20:17 <nakilon> but it needs a specific ocaml version and it does not compile on my macos, and I'm lazy to do it via docker
14:21:42 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89101&oldid=89100 * PixelatedStarfish * (+70) /* Syntax */
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14:22:20 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89102&oldid=89101 * PixelatedStarfish * (+35) /* Syntax */
14:22:39 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89103&oldid=89102 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Syntax */
14:23:13 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89104&oldid=89103 * PixelatedStarfish * (+30) /* Syntax */
14:27:15 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89105&oldid=89104 * PixelatedStarfish * (+88) /* Error Messages */
14:36:06 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89106&oldid=89105 * PixelatedStarfish * (+21) 
14:39:07 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89107&oldid=89106 * PixelatedStarfish * (+49) /* Error Messages */
14:56:23 <esolangs> [[Bedtime Story]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89108 * PixelatedStarfish * (+20) Created page with "REDIRECT [[Bedtime]]"
14:56:42 <esolangs> [[Loli]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89109 * Huanying04 * (+7592) Created page with "'''Loli''' is an esolang made by [[User:Huanying04]], that makes the code looks like a little girl's daily or something.  ==Specification== ===School Bag=== Declaring a value..."
14:57:03 <esolangs> [[Bedtime Story]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89110&oldid=89108 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) Redirected page to [[Bedtime]]
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15:00:58 <esolangs> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89111&oldid=89054 * Huanying04 * (+11) /* L */
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16:14:21 <nakilon> cool thing https://github.com/dtinth/ttycast looks a bit abandoned though
16:35:07 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89112&oldid=89107 * PixelatedStarfish * (+72) /* Syntax */
16:45:48 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89113&oldid=85517 * Rphii * (-196) /* Commands */ remove _ command (to resolve conflicts)
16:47:55 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89114&oldid=89113 * Rphii * (+10) /* Examples */ remove _ command as well
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17:01:00 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89115&oldid=89112 * PixelatedStarfish * (+69) /* Grammar */
17:01:34 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89116&oldid=89115 * PixelatedStarfish * (-10) /* Syntax */
17:01:43 <esolangs> [[EPL Main]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89117&oldid=89069 * Aboba228 * (+27) /* Hello, world Program for Windows */
17:26:13 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89118&oldid=89116 * PixelatedStarfish * (+269) /* Grammar */
17:27:46 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89119&oldid=89118 * PixelatedStarfish * (+13) /* Syntax */
17:29:35 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89120&oldid=89119 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Grammar */
17:30:22 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89121&oldid=89120 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Operation Codes */
17:36:55 <esolangs> [[EPL Main]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89122&oldid=89117 * Timofeyka * (-27) Undo revision 89117 by [[Special:Contributions/Aboba228|Aboba228]] ([[User talk:Aboba228|talk]])
17:38:50 <esolangs> [[EPL Main]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89123&oldid=89122 * Aboba228 * (-2) /* Hello, world Program for Windows */
17:40:48 <esolangs> [[EPL Main]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89124&oldid=89123 * Timofeyka * (+2) Undo revision 89123 by [[Special:Contributions/Aboba228|Aboba228]] ([[User talk:Aboba228|talk]])
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19:57:42 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89125 * PixelatedStarfish * (+738) Created page with "'''Nondescript''' is a programming language by [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]. It is a genericized, stack-based, language designed such that it has a simple interpreter. It suppor..."
19:59:52 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89126&oldid=89093 * PixelatedStarfish * (+68) /* Unimplemented Languages */
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20:00:42 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89127&oldid=89126 * PixelatedStarfish * (+17) /* In Chronological Order */
20:00:42 <Kit> lol
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20:02:06 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89128&oldid=89125 * PixelatedStarfish * (+61) 
20:02:26 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89129&oldid=89128 * PixelatedStarfish * (+6) /* Commands */
20:03:26 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89130&oldid=89129 * PixelatedStarfish * (+10) /* Commands */
20:04:48 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89131&oldid=89130 * PixelatedStarfish * (-10) /* Commands */
20:06:31 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89132&oldid=89114 * Rphii * (+7) /* Timers */ detail
20:08:05 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89133&oldid=89131 * PixelatedStarfish * (+83) /* Commands */
20:10:27 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89134&oldid=89121 * PixelatedStarfish * (-11) /* Operation Codes */
20:11:29 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89135&oldid=89134 * PixelatedStarfish * (+21) /* Operation Codes */
20:36:10 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89136&oldid=89133 * PixelatedStarfish * (+60) 
20:36:26 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89137&oldid=89136 * PixelatedStarfish * (-4) 
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22:19:18 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89138&oldid=89135 * PixelatedStarfish * (+38) 
22:31:08 <esolangs> [[Forget Me Not]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89139&oldid=88928 * PixelatedStarfish * (-28) 
22:32:02 <esolangs> [[Aboba]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89140&oldid=86922 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* External links */
22:32:20 <esolangs> [[Aboba]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89141&oldid=89140 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* External links */
22:32:33 <esolangs> [[Aboba]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89142&oldid=89141 * PixelatedStarfish * (-34) /* External links */
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23:24:36 <esolangs> [[Talk:Chicken]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89143 * PixelatedStarfish * (+88) Created page with "Marvelous, got me laughing in the middle of the linux lab...  [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]"
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2021-10-28:

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00:31:57 <fizzie> . o O (Whose idea it was that sqlite3_column_* numbers are from 0, but sqlite3_bind_* numbers are from 1?)
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01:07:28 <zzo38> I would guess Hipp, but I don't really know. Also, column numbers in ORDER BY are starting from 1 even though the column numbers in the C API are from 0, so I don't know why is that either
01:11:12 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89144&oldid=89137 * PixelatedStarfish * (+63) 
01:12:18 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * PixelatedStarfish *  uploaded "[[File:Nadada.png]]"
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03:42:20 <esolangs> [[Toddler]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89146 * PixelatedStarfish * (+992) Created page with "'''Toddler''' is a self modifying language by [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] that takes an command in source and replaces it with a randomly chosen valid command. It has a random..."
03:43:56 <esolangs> [[Toddler]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89147&oldid=89146 * PixelatedStarfish * (+124) 
03:44:42 <esolangs> [[Toddler]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89148&oldid=89147 * PixelatedStarfish * (+27) 
03:46:25 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89149&oldid=89127 * PixelatedStarfish * (+48) /* Unimplemented Languages */
03:47:59 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89150&oldid=89149 * PixelatedStarfish * (+13) /* In Chronological Order */
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08:34:47 <b_jonas> fizzie: sqlite_bind_* numbers need not be sequential though, if you use numeric placeholders like ?2
08:35:23 <b_jonas> but I also don't know why they're numbered from 1
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09:59:29 <fizzie> Is there a reason why a phishing spam might intentionally mistype the name of the company it's allegedly from, but only for some of the mentions? Just got two e-banking related ones, and one's from "Nordlea" (Nordea) while the other's from "Dankse Bank" / "Danke Bank" (Danske Bank). Both do spell it correctly on occasion, too.
09:59:40 <fizzie> Maybe they're just sloppy. "Danke Bank" is a bit funny though.
10:34:20 <int-e> bypassing spam filters that look for keywords and frequency?
10:39:50 <int-e> `thanks bank
10:39:52 <HackEso> Thanks, bank. Thank.
10:44:15 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Photon Niko *  New user account
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12:27:42 <esolangs> [[Toddler]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89151&oldid=89148 * PixelatedStarfish * (+98) 
12:39:31 <esolangs> [[Toddler]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89152&oldid=89151 * PixelatedStarfish * (+401) 
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13:17:54 <wib_jonas> "Is there a reason why a phishing spam might intentionally mistype" => usually that's to avoid spam filters that know those are bad keywords likely to occur in spam. that can happen even for proper names like a company.
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13:24:34 <fizzie> Well, right, but then I'd expect them to be misspelled throughout. The Danke Bank one for example contains "Danske Bank" (the correct spelling) three times, plus one "Dankse Bank" and one "Danke Bank".
13:25:28 <int-e> but that would feel less organic ;)
13:47:12 <fizzie> Been seeing a bit of a spike in Finnish banking phishing emails, and also most of the recent ones have been using URL shorteners (t.co, some other) to make the "click here" links a little less obviously fraudulent, which I feel like wasn't quite as common earlier.
13:51:52 <int-e> next they'll be using one of those dedicated email link statistics gatherers and it'll be impossible to tell the things apart from a real email
13:53:59 <int-e> (I think I have only seen this kind of third party analytics in "newsletters" but training people to click totally opaque links is a terrible idea.)
13:54:44 <int-e> But it's all good if the URL bar shows a closed lock, right?
13:59:30 <wib_jonas> fizzie: ah yes, that makes it look like that infamous recipe: put secret information to google docs, set it to be shared with everyone who knows the link, protected only by the long random string in an URL parameter, give URL to an URL shortener. 
14:01:04 <fizzie> int-e: There was one of those third-party analytics in an official government email, though I can't remember if it was the Finnish or UK government.
14:03:06 <wib_jonas> int-e: yeah, the "green lock symbol so it's safe" trope is so old it is used in two Jules Verne novels. In La Jangada, the only thing that proves the protagonist's inocence is an encrypted testimony by a dead person. It's encrypted, so it's real, not written by the protagonist. It is handwritten and the dead person is an office clerk so they can at
14:03:07 <wib_jonas> least compare handwriting samples, but good luck for that when the encrypted document is a sequence of random letters while the samples have real words in some language.
14:06:11 <int-e> I think I only know Jules Verne second hand (and third hand etc... it has spawned many levels of derivatives)
14:06:19 <int-e> it = his stories
14:06:51 <wib_jonas> The other is "Voyage au centre de la Terre", where, when Axel asks if the encrypted message could be a forgery, Professor Lindenbrock responds indignantly on how you could ever suppose that such an excellent scientist as Arne Saknussem would commit forgery, ignoring the possibility that it wasn't Saknussem who wrote the encrypted message.
14:08:18 <int-e> Why does this remind me of the Dream Minecraft cheating scandal...
14:14:57 <wib_jonas> The latter is at least mostly cleared up by the rest of the novel. But for La Jangada, I can imagine a twist where the whole novel turns out to be told from the point of an unreliable narrator who forwards Joam's lies, and in reality the document is forged by Joam in Ortega's name and faking his handwriting. Torrès recognized Joam and blackmailed
14:14:57 <wib_jonas> him, knowing correctly that Joam was guilty, so Joam had him killed and then told the story where Torrès is more evil and blackmails him with the encrypted document knowing that he's innocent. 
14:15:12 <wib_jonas> int-e: I don't know what that scandal is.
14:16:10 <wib_jonas> There are two more Jules Verne novels with encrypted messages by the way, for a total of four.
14:17:10 <int-e> wib_jonas: hmm, not sure which bubble that is from... https://www.ginx.tv/en/minecraft/dream-finally-admits-to-cheating-in-minecraft-speedrun was the conclusion, but there are dozens of videos about it on youtube
14:18:09 <fizzie> That reminds me of a TV comedy quiz show (a popular genre here) gag where one of the guest comedians has brought in toenail clippings of a famous person they bought off eBay, and when challenged on how they know they're genuine reply with "well I paid tens of thousands for them, those can't be just any old toenail clippings".
14:18:19 <int-e> anyway the thing that I was reminded of was that the argument "Dream is such a great minecraft speedrunner, he'd never cheat" was put forth quite a lot early on.
14:20:36 <int-e> (The problem is really the game... luck is a *huge* factor in speedruns.)
14:20:57 <wib_jonas> int-e: I see
14:21:38 <wib_jonas> usually that argument is brought up about speedrunners who have invented new strats or shown hard work in speedrunning in other ways
14:21:49 <wib_jonas> displayed detailed knowledge about the agme
14:21:56 <Corbin> The irony is that the well-practiced athletes are the ones most likely to cheat, since they have the most to gain and also are often experts in how to cheat.
14:23:09 <wib_jonas> but yes, Minecraft is somewhat bad in this respect because the speedrun has too many luck elements that could be cheated and hard to control
14:23:45 <Corbin> https://lobste.rs/s/nusmxk/did_dream_fake_his_speedruns has lots of good thoughts on this.
14:24:56 <int-e> I really enjoyed that paper.
14:26:10 <int-e> (And then there's the story with the rebuttal... ah good times.)
14:26:59 <wib_jonas> admittedly there's an out-of-universe argument for why Joam is innocent: that's how typical Jules Verne novels work, with black and white characters, perfectly innocent and noble heroes and perfectly evil criminals opposing them
14:27:47 <wib_jonas> if Joam were guilty, then who remained the hero of the book? his children for trusting their father and trying to support him in every way to clear his name? kind of, but I don't buy it
14:28:28 <wib_jonas> is there even any other Jules Verne book that shows sympathic family of the villains? I don't recall any
14:30:19 <wib_jonas> the straightforward reading where Joam is innocent is more in line with Jules Verne's other books
14:30:57 <wib_jonas> but couldn't you suppose that Verne himself was deceived by (the fictional) Joam and wrote the novel based on his lies?
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15:34:15 <fizzie> int-e: I heard of that Minecraft controversy from the Stand-up Maths channel video.
15:34:27 <sprout> Egel news: a small theory of calculations modulo a state and an example. (https://github.com/egel-lang/egel/blob/master/include/calculate.eg ;  https://github.com/egel-lang/egel/blob/master/examples/stategame.eg ) - basically, chaining actions.
15:34:49 * sprout mumbles monads or something
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15:52:16 <esolangs> [[Toddler]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89153&oldid=89152 * PixelatedStarfish * (+473) 
15:55:07 <esolangs> [[Toddler]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89154&oldid=89153 * PixelatedStarfish * (-51) /* Commands */
16:00:38 <esolangs> [[Toddler]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89155&oldid=89154 * PixelatedStarfish * (+78) /* Commands */
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17:26:57 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89156&oldid=89144 * PixelatedStarfish * (+23) 
17:32:06 <esolangs> [[Toddler]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89157&oldid=89155 * PixelatedStarfish * (+113) /* Commands */
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17:42:25 <esolangs> [[Toddler]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89158&oldid=89157 * PixelatedStarfish * (+53) /* Commands */
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17:45:52 <esolangs> [[Toddler]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89159&oldid=89158 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Commands */
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18:04:01 <fizzie> Oh, we're missing fungot and I didn't even notice.
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18:05:31 <fizzie> fungot: Just remember, a chatbot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being come to harm.
18:05:31 <fungot> fizzie: prose can be poetry too. i just rarely if ever happy. except for free samples.
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18:17:19 <sprout> https://twitter.com/egel_language/ thought maybe I'ld do some outreach.  any follow appreciated
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18:36:05 <olsner> hi fungot
18:36:05 <fungot> olsner: can't really remember) to trim it after. the example it made it much easier to do
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19:42:01 <b_jonas> I have the new mointor (27 inch diagonal screen, 2560x1440 resolution) installed. I'll definitely have to make a 24 (or 25) pixel tall console font now.
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21:01:05 <esolangs> [[Toddler]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89160&oldid=89159 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2) 
21:07:16 <sprout> https://twitter.com/egel_language/ <- give me a follow and name your bribe?
21:13:27 <esolangs> [[Toddler]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89161&oldid=89160 * PixelatedStarfish * (+100) 
21:17:57 <esolangs> [[Toddler]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89162&oldid=89161 * PixelatedStarfish * (+313) 
21:19:13 <esolangs> [[Toddler]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89163&oldid=89162 * PixelatedStarfish * (+39) /* A Note on Interpretation */
21:19:35 <esolangs> [[Toddler]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89164&oldid=89163 * PixelatedStarfish * (-72) /* A Note on Interpretation */
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21:45:35 <esolangs> [[Backrooms]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89165&oldid=87373 * Ch44d * (-64) Fix Spelling replace hope with hop and remove whitespace
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22:03:09 <zzo38> I have many different email addresses since I use a different one for each correspondent, but have no spam filter set up. Still, I hardly receive any spam email messages, in this way.
22:34:37 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89166&oldid=89150 * PixelatedStarfish * (+48) /* Toddler */
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2021-10-29:

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01:01:24 <zzo38> In some stories, they are "with black and white characters, perfectly innocent and noble heroes and perfectly evil criminals opposing them", but others aren't like that. The third way would be to have both kind of situation within the same story, perhaps.
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02:38:09 <esolangs> [[Dual tape]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89167&oldid=87401 * Ch44d * (+4820) Work on Docs
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02:43:29 <fizzie> Bye, fungot. (Lost interwebs at home due to a "localised power outage", and since it's a "third party issue" my ISP is "unable to confirm at this time when the service will be restored", which probably means I shouldn't expect it to be soon.)
03:53:32 <esolangs> [[Pig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89168&oldid=89040 * Squidmanescape * (+3) 
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06:20:47 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89169&oldid=89156 * PixelatedStarfish * (+108) /* Commands */
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08:06:37 <nakilon> I hate ISPs
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08:07:11 <nakilon> why don't their responsibilities grow proportionally to computerizing the world
08:08:06 <nakilon> why doesn't their price lower proportionally to technological progress
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10:50:11 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Positron *  New user account
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11:00:56 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89170&oldid=89049 * Positron * (+364) 
11:01:22 <esolangs> [[User:Positron]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89171 * Positron * (+173) Created page with "Hello, I'm Positron (a.k.a Lime), I'm French and I love esolangs and I'm trying to make some ! <small>[If you're reading this, I hope you will have a great day ! :D]</small>"
11:30:44 <esolangs> [[Backrooms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89172&oldid=89165 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* turing */ fix name
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13:34:44 <esolangs> [[FU]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89173 * Positron * (+9230) Created page with "'''FU''' (Or FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU) is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:Positron]]. It is designed to be minimalistic and hard to understand.  == Instruct..."
13:35:07 <esolangs> [[FU]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89174&oldid=89173 * Positron * (+3) 
13:36:10 <esolangs> [[FU]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89175&oldid=89174 * Positron * (-1) 
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13:38:56 <esolangs> [[FU]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89176&oldid=89175 * Positron * (-162) 
13:39:48 <esolangs> [[FU]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89177&oldid=89176 * Positron * (+12) 
13:40:10 <esolangs> [[FU]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89178&oldid=89177 * Positron * (-1) /* Compiler/Interpreter */
13:41:44 <esolangs> [[FU]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89179&oldid=89178 * Positron * (+65) 
13:44:24 <esolangs> [[FU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89180&oldid=89179 * Positron * (+1) 
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14:31:38 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89181&oldid=89169 * PixelatedStarfish * (+10) /* Commands */
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14:35:52 <fizzie> Yay, an internet.
14:36:35 <wib_jonas> fungot, was your ISP's DNS broken and you couldn't connect to libera without?
14:36:36 <fungot> wib_jonas: but i haven't got any info about threading :( english, i would be suspicious of it.
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14:50:19 <fizzie> It was more broken than just DNS.
14:56:23 <riv> BGP
14:56:32 <riv> fungot: BGP error
14:56:33 <fungot> riv: i don't like role-playing games.
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15:50:08 <nakilon> velik maybe you like role playing games?
15:50:30 <velik>  who... Debugging. Though having ; i'd don't place very... By I need or they'll write does not jump a funky bulk
15:51:26 <nakilon> I wonder if I can post process this to fix grammar
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16:14:28 <esolangs> [[CLE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89182 * Not applicable * (+2196) partially written -- note to self: continue this later
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16:31:08 <imode> fungot: beep boop.
16:31:08 <fungot> imode: in this chatzilla theme thing, it's quite simply that he's a sophmore in hs.
16:31:17 <imode> damn, cold.
16:31:23 <imode> fungot: how are you feeling today?
16:31:23 <fungot> imode: i love it and use it as an excercise in pure statistics, as it has a weird name for pretty-printing.
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16:47:23 <sprout> fungot: what's your opinion on hedgehogs?
16:47:23 <fungot> sprout: extracted the original c was basically just a shortcut to get around that limit, or add one to every argument and subtract it from 15.
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16:59:30 <nakilon> meh, there are only 1) tools that use terabytes of ram 2) those free apis that only correct punctuation (I can do it myself with regexes, ffs) 3) writer.com has no api 4) google has 5 services to analyze text but not to correct it
17:00:01 <nakilon> there is also some spell checker by bing but it immediately wants me to register to just try it
17:00:26 <nakilon> (because azure)
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17:12:59 <nakilon> oh, I didn't realise I really could use GCP NLP service instead of ragging with hunpos, tree-tagger, ark-tagger, etc.; the free monthly quota is 5 mln unicode chars, and for example, two months on this channel logs that I used are just 500k so you can process almost the whole year every month
17:13:08 <nakilon> *tagging
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17:18:42 <esolangs> [[FU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89183&oldid=89180 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+118) /* Personal Note */ Cats
17:24:33 <esolangs> [[CLE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89184&oldid=89182 * Not applicable * (+151) add sample programs
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20:34:05 <esolangs> [[TEPCS]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89185&oldid=89050 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+169) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the TEPCS programming language on GitHub.
20:38:34 <esolangs> [[TEPCS]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89186&oldid=89185 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+293) Created a separate section for the example programs and extended it by the computation of the factorial.
20:52:44 <nakilon> just found that my ex wife sold Knuth's Art of Programming and bought Converse sneakers, lol
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21:38:17 <leah2> til there are pdf versions of taocp now
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21:48:43 <esolangs> [[Cle]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89187 * Not applicable * (+17) Redirected page to [[CLE]]
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22:15:42 <zzo38> Does any implementation of printf have a code to specify that the next argument is a second format string to apply to the remaining arguments but to use the first format string to determine the types of those arguments? (This can allow to do such things as: skip unused arguments, avoid security issues with wrong types, allow external format strings to continue to work even if it is later changed to longer types, etc)
22:42:30 <sprout> https://github.com/egel-lang/egel/blob/master/examples/parser.eg <- a parser for a simple expression language in Egel
22:42:33 <sprout> searching is calculation,  parsing is searching
22:42:40 <sprout> pretty happy with it
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00:26:42 <nakilon> in an Austrian company we were importing data from the company called Igel
00:26:55 <nakilon> that meant a hedgehog in german I guess
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00:30:50 <keegan> imode: prick. recognize me now?
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00:35:57 <fizzie> It's 'igelkott' in Swedish, so that sounds plausible.
00:36:57 <oerjan> i too have learned that fact before (about Swedish and German)
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00:43:34 <keegan> kronk: eat shit
00:43:50 <keegan> you're the reason people don't get the shot
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00:50:08 <Corbin> Curious.
00:50:25 <kronk> They're mad because I banned them.
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01:16:37 <keegan> kronk: I'm mad because you banned me for disagreeing with you, and smeared me as "anti-vax" when i'm nothing of the sort
01:16:49 <keegan> and furthermore insinuated that i'm some kind of russian troll plant
01:16:58 <keegan> when in fact I've been in channels like this one for the better part of a decade
01:17:15 <keegan> you clearly just can't handle people disagreeing with you
01:17:22 <keegan> and you're on a power trip
01:19:06 <keegan> anyway i shouldn't bring drama from other channels in here
01:19:19 <keegan> i'm just here because we were both regulars here (until i quit a couple weeks ago)
01:19:33 <keegan> so maybe you don't think i'm some astroturf account now
01:19:45 <keegan> you can check the logs if you want
01:19:47 <keegan> (I was kmc on freenode)
01:19:48 <keegan> anyway
01:19:53 <keegan> that is all
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01:32:05 * oerjan is confused by the nakilon/imode/keegan mutual hate triangle
01:32:22 <oerjan> . o O ( go get a room or something )
01:33:09 <nakilon> what is "russian troll plant"?
01:33:58 <oerjan> nakilon: a person presumably paid by the russian government to ruin America by fomenting discontent on social media.
01:34:18 <oerjan> afaiu
01:34:43 <oerjan> *afaiui
01:35:45 <oerjan> there presumably are some russian trolls, whether they get paid i dunno.
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01:35:57 <nakilon> damn, no one told me I could be paid for that
01:36:05 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure keegan isn't one, though.
01:37:06 <oerjan> nakilon: that's just what you _want_ us to think
01:37:50 <oerjan> (frankly you bitch too much about people in russia to be one, too. but some of your other opinions come close.)
01:38:20 <nakilon> all people suck in different ways
01:38:52 <nakilon> velik are you russian troll plant?
01:39:07 <velik>  used even you are russian
01:41:22 <oerjan> velik: typical whataboutism
01:41:32 <velik>  and this for does remainder tank
01:43:14 <nakilon> velik is more russian than me -- he never spoke ukrainian
01:43:24 <velik>  surprisingly, its conjunction octopuss does not to somewhere be around.
01:44:09 <oerjan> his grammar is more stereotypically broken, too
01:47:59 <imode> well, I came back to that.
01:48:35 <imode> somehow it's missing from my logs, but not kronk's.
01:48:56 <imode> someone needs a life.
01:49:08 <imode> anyway, sorry for the disruption, it probably won't happen again.
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01:53:45 <nakilon> oh remember I said that russians do a lot of spelling errors? today I saw this quote https://i.imgur.com/i9nh5UA.png it says: "Moscow State University Journalist Faculty: this year entrants did very badly in the dictation test, among 228 of them only 18% did <=9 errors per page of text while the rest (including 15 who got 100 points in school final
01:53:45 <nakilon> exams) did 24-25 error in average"
01:55:59 <nakilon> I don't communicate with pupils nowadays but people say that the computerization sucks and it caused rewriting all the tasks and more importantly the way how pupil is taught to solve problems
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02:03:08 <fizzie> I got a very stereotypically bad-english spam email today.
02:03:25 <fizzie> Had a look at it because the subject line of "Re: Artificial lawn gold supplier agent" sounded intriguing.
02:03:45 <fizzie> Are they supplying both artificial lawns *and* precious metals, or is it some sort of a golden lawn scenario? 
02:04:12 <fizzie> Unfortunately I think it was just "gold supplier" as in a good supplier.
02:06:02 -!- shikhin has changed hostmask to ~shikhin@offtopia/offtopian.
02:07:49 <fizzie> The earlier "Re: API valves" was in the same category of subject lines. Is it about software, or about plumbing? Turns out it's just about plumbing, and the API is the American Petroleum Institute, a standards body in the field.
02:08:32 <nakilon> why do they include Re:?
02:08:59 <fizzie> I don't know. Maybe it is to make it look like a response to an inquiry you might have sent out? 
02:16:13 <nakilon> there is a weird "1986 Soviet sci-fi dystopian tragicomedy cult film" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kin-dza-dza! -- there people used "Koo!" as a greeting; so sometimes we used "Ку" in chats, and in english layout it's "Re"
02:18:01 <nakilon> so then transliterating it back to cyrillic it became "ре", but it's not used by youth; it's the same forgotten as /me
02:20:19 <nakilon> funny that modern youth does not inherit most of internet knowledge and local traditions because their parents are too old for internet and didn't know it to teach them
02:21:37 <nakilon> for example in US there are families who play Quake in 3 generations already but here youth is kind of detached from those who older yet
02:49:44 <esolangs> [[Dual tape]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89188&oldid=89167 * Ch44d * (+2225) finish core docs
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03:00:30 <esolangs> [[Dual tape]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89189&oldid=89188 * Ch44d * (-8) fix bad git link
03:04:19 <esolangs> [[User:Ch44d]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89190&oldid=87410 * Ch44d * (-4) remove wip
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03:46:19 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89191&oldid=89181 * PixelatedStarfish * (+61) /* Hello World */
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04:22:45 <Corbin> nakilon: Russians (and Ukranians, etc.) who experienced the USSR directly tend to have a very distinct political behavior; they're critical of collectivism and democracy. This tends to clash with USA society, creating the impression that Russians are somehow anti-USA or anti-democratic. It's purely because of their life experiences, though.
04:23:53 <Corbin> The famous examples that come to mind for me are the dude who popularized Tetris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexey_Pajitnov and a very bitter philosopher https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand
04:26:18 <Corbin> But also a bunch of people I've known on IRC. Had a former StarCraft team member (don't play anymore) who is Ukranian; he's nice, but has several neuroses from his childhood.
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05:32:47 <esolangs> [[Dual tape]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89192&oldid=89189 * Ch44d * (-10) fix spelling
05:40:42 <esolangs> [[Dual tape]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89193&oldid=89192 * Ch44d * (+0) remove underscore
05:54:22 <esolangs> [[Dual tape]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89194&oldid=89193 * Ch44d * (+0) fix birthday
07:20:56 <zzo38> Games to be converted to Free Hero Mesh:  Windows Hero Hearts [DONE]; DOS Vampiric Tower [DONE]; DOS Hero Hearts; Berusky; PC Wanderer; Escape; Brain N Bells; Chroma; Xsok; PuzzleScript (with limited functionality).   What might I have missed?
07:29:14 <esolangs> [[Dual tape ez]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89195&oldid=87402 * Ch44d * (+4503) work on docs
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08:36:44 <nakilon> Corbin the thing about Ukraine is that banker Yushenko married US neonazi and got financed his faked 2004 president election victory -- since then Ukraine became separated in half on those who just want to live in peace like they were doing since USSR and those who live by Goebbels propaganda
08:41:06 <Franciman> sorry for ukraine :<
08:41:44 <Franciman> I think US society can be criticized by others too :P
08:42:47 <Franciman> and it is well established that americans are anti-democratic too, for example in the Ustica case
08:42:51 <Franciman> they hid everything
08:42:55 <nakilon> Nazi Germany collaborationists were printing propaganda newspapers, writing the same nonsense on every page that "you are oppressed, we are coming to save you" but then end it with ethnic cleanings anyway, and they hired Galician Ukrainians to do those cleanings, to mass kill own Ukrainians and Jews -- Yushenko declared these collaborationists
08:42:55 <nakilon> official heroes
08:43:04 <Franciman> and closed everything
08:43:10 <Franciman> it is a still ongoing mistery
08:43:30 <nakilon> started building monuments to them, now renaming streets, stadiums, etc.
08:43:34 <Franciman> that's oscurantism worth move
08:44:04 <Franciman> nakilon: is the situation now better?
08:44:06 <nakilon> and the longer you do it the more people really believe it and now Ukraine is just half plain fascist society
08:44:13 <Franciman> oh shit
08:46:57 <Franciman> another anti-democratic move of US, is the interference in the so called strategy of tension in the 80s effectively making italy lose all its cultural heat
08:47:18 <Franciman> not to speak about other middle east moves that were based on lies
08:47:59 <Franciman> but the US is not bad, really (no sarcasm). It gets MUCH WORSE as nakilon showed
08:49:08 <nakilon> Franciman they are the power since February 2014, the neonazis are privileged class, backed by government, police, doing journalist assassinations and not jailing even if the whole country knows who is the assassin; or for example, in May 2 2014 they burned 50 random people alive in a building Odessa and refuse to investigate, guess why
08:50:38 <Franciman> nakilon: are you safe speaking about this?
08:50:40 <Franciman> please take care
08:50:45 <Franciman> and #resist
08:50:59 <nakilon> it was an act of terrorism made by the government, same as the ethnic cleaning they've started in mid April after spending March gathering the military forces and arming the nazi battalions, that resulted in people of Donbass to unite and arm themselves to defend from the ethnic cleaning, but world mass media just hides the chronology and cuts out
08:50:59 <nakilon> the March
08:51:18 <nakilon> to fake the "Russian invasion"
08:52:04 <nakilon> Franciman I'm safe as long as I'm in Russia
08:52:09 <Franciman> :D
08:52:10 <Franciman> awesome
08:52:24 <Franciman> be careful about the russian _singularities_ too
08:53:09 <nakilon> and since I don't post it in social networks, otherwise I would get listed in the Mirotvorec registry -- a website made by government to collect and publish private information such as bio and address for head hunters
08:53:31 <nakilon> when journalists get listed there they are often assassinated in few days
08:56:02 <riv> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvkUo05xtFM exurba video on language
08:59:44 <nakilon> "I'll show where there crayfish hibernate" -- ahah, yeah
09:00:30 <nakilon> it's synonym to "show them Kuzkina Mother!" said by Hruschev
09:02:11 <nakilon> that means "to stand for yourself" in a non-cursing way
09:02:35 <riv> :D
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11:35:08 <esolangs> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89196&oldid=89111 * Positron * (+9) 
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11:54:18 <esolangs> [[Calligulan Assembly]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89197&oldid=86410 * ArthroStar11 * (-34) updated link to interpreter
11:55:17 <esolangs> [[User:ArthroStar11]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89198&oldid=89031 * ArthroStar11 * (-34) updated link to Calligulan Assembly
12:13:15 <nakilon> wow is it true? https://old.reddit.com/r/HistoryPorn/comments/qi9s39/babies_left_to_sleep_outside_enforcing_immune/hiifk0r/?context=10 didn't know it is a thing
12:13:35 <nakilon> all the comment thread
12:14:20 <nakilon> more specifically about sleeping outside at night or in the cold
12:15:09 <nakilon> also Iceland, Poland in other threads under this post
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12:46:12 <esolangs> [[BrainfisHQ9+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89199&oldid=86232 * ArthroStar11 * (-15) updated link to my interpreter
12:47:25 <esolangs> [[User:ArthroStar11]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89200&oldid=89198 * ArthroStar11 * (-219) updated link to BrainFisHQ9+
12:48:24 <esolangs> [[XSVL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89201&oldid=87643 * ArthroStar11 * (-182) removed link to my unofficial interpreter as it is redundant
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14:32:56 <nakilon> looks like the only genders Google Cloud NLP defines are { GENDER_UNKNOWN NEUTER MASCULINE }
14:33:27 <nakilon> that makes no sense
14:36:26 <esolangs> [[Asparagus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89202&oldid=78656 * Not applicable * (-50) update links to point to new gh acc
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15:23:54 <nakilon> so this channel Dec 2020 log after sanitizing weird chars, removing lines with code, removing nicknames (IIRC), passed through google's nlp, compacted and stored as JSONLas: [sentence, (array of)[strpos within sentence, word, lemma, parent word index, label, tag, morphology]] -- (4mb) https://paste.the-compiler.org/view/raw/4ffbee0f
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15:31:18 <esolangs> [[User:Palaiologos]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89203&oldid=81568 * Palaiologos * (+242) A mention of MalbolgeLISP
15:31:42 <kspalaiologos> hi hi, would someone be willing to help me out a little with a wiki article
15:39:43 <nakilon> kspalaiologos what's the problem
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15:44:08 <kspalaiologos> nakilon, the current MalbolgeLISP article is outdated and i don't really know if i should scrap it off and write it from scratch, or somehow rewrite it
15:44:33 <kspalaiologos> i.. actually wrote a book about malbolgelisp, so i don't think i have to describe malbolgelisp in my article
15:44:56 <kspalaiologos> i can provide some examples, i guess, but i don't know how to expand the article beyond a stub, or whether i should
15:47:14 <nakilon> if you are author I suppose you are free to edit it as you wish
15:47:35 <nakilon> as I can see the only other edit there was just copypasta of README that as you say is outdated
15:49:17 <nakilon> personally in my language I drew a border between wiki and github readme as github has as view text as possible, working as a reference documentation, while wiki can have more text, examples, edits by others, etc.
15:49:32 <Corbin> kspalaiologos: There's not yet any sort of editorial standards on the wiki. The two main things I would note (1) monospaced layouts are not preferable for prose, and so most of the sections should be converted to basic wiki markup; (2) categories should be added.
15:50:15 <Corbin> Feel free to reference your book, although if it's not freely available online then make sure to give exerpts and not just citations.
15:52:16 <kspalaiologos> oh it's just a PDF in my github repository
15:53:03 <kspalaiologos> the current Esolangs wiki article is somewhat bad and i want to improve it soon, i'll probably just supply an outline, give some examples and link the book
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16:07:32 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Xeon127 *  New user account
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17:04:00 <riv> https://justine.lol/sectorlisp/
17:04:02 <riv> wow
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18:53:07 <esolangs> [[Dual tape ez]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89204&oldid=89195 * Ch44d * (+1851) work on docs
18:54:19 <esolangs> [[Hello]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89205&oldid=82675 * Squidmanescape * (+161) 
18:56:56 <esolangs> [[Hello]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89206&oldid=89205 * Squidmanescape * (+210) 
18:57:44 <esolangs> [[Dual tape]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89207&oldid=89194 * Ch44d * (+33) add more detail to write dynamic instruction
19:00:30 <esolangs> [[Hello++]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89208&oldid=86132 * Squidmanescape * (+414) 
19:01:02 <esolangs> [[Hello++]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89209&oldid=89208 * Squidmanescape * (+4) 
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19:29:47 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * DigitalDetective47 *  New user account
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19:59:09 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89210&oldid=89170 * DigitalDetective47 * (+274) /* Introductions */
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21:27:32 <esolangs> [[Dual tape ez]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89211&oldid=89204 * Ch44d * (+267) add_examples
21:28:12 <esolangs> [[User:Ch44d]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89212&oldid=89190 * Ch44d * (-4) remove dual tape ez wip
21:32:29 <esolangs> [[Dual tape]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89213&oldid=89207 * Ch44d * (+3) reword write
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22:55:23 <oerjan> nakilon: ok that's enough. i'm going to look up yushenko's wife on wikipedia and if i find no believable mention that's she's very right-wing i'm going to ban you. hth
22:58:06 <esolangs> [[User:DigitalDetective47]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89214 * DigitalDetective47 * (+48) Created page with "this page has text now so that links appear blue"
23:06:30 <oerjan> nothing as i expected, in fact much of her family was _killed_ by nazis.
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23:11:45 <oerjan> oh my mistake it was the holodomor, not the nazis. (although the nazis didn't treat them nicely either.)
23:23:37 <oerjan> also we forbade politics on this channel after one of his previous rampages.
23:44:13 <oerjan> which is a better reason for the banning, since i really cannot stomach the idea of trying to read enough crap to get a truly _balanced_ view of the ukraine situation.
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2021-10-31:

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00:02:40 <oerjan> let me officially revise the ban reason to "being a generally annoying troll".
00:03:06 <oerjan> because that's so much harder to try to argue your wait out of in privmsg hth
00:03:10 <oerjan> *way
00:07:01 <oerjan> (and frankly it's the real reason, anything else is just an attempt to be "fair".)
00:10:06 <oerjan> in other news, less than an hour until the scheduled european time travel event hth
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00:22:50 <esolangs> [[HelloWorld]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89215&oldid=82984 * DigitalDetective47 * (-24) /* Compiler */ Replaced external link to user page with internal link.
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00:39:36 <VMGuy23> i feel like making some weird sh-like thing that does thing inefficiently, using loops.
00:47:26 <oerjan> . o O ( isn't that just an ordinary shell )
00:54:09 <VMGuy23> like, to do 2*3 is to start with 0, and add 1 (2) times and repeat that (3) times
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04:53:13 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89216&oldid=89191 * PixelatedStarfish * (+50) /* Commands */
04:54:47 <b_jonas> oerjan: that should be a quiet rather than a ban though, just on principle
04:58:12 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89217&oldid=89216 * PixelatedStarfish * (+7) /* Commands */
05:02:30 <b_jonas> oerjan: also you could have the time travel event twice: once for Israel and once for most of Europe
05:04:15 <esolangs> [[Helios]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89218 * ArthroStar11 * (+2362) created page and provided link to my interpreter
05:05:49 <esolangs> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89219&oldid=89196 * ArthroStar11 * (+13) Added my language "Helios"
05:07:27 <esolangs> [[User:ArthroStar11]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89220&oldid=89200 * ArthroStar11 * (+85) 
05:11:37 <esolangs> [[Helios]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89221&oldid=89218 * ArthroStar11 * (+1) fixed typo
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07:43:19 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89222&oldid=89035 * Squidmanescape * (+167) 
07:43:39 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89223&oldid=89222 * Squidmanescape * (-10) 
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08:09:20 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89224&oldid=88679 * Squidmanescape * (+146) /* Grawlix */
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08:12:38 <esolangs> [[Gray Snail]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89225&oldid=89043 * Squidmanescape * (+282) 
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09:44:31 <riv> https://justine.lol/sectorlisp/sectorlisp.lst there's no way this is an entire lisp interpreter
09:45:51 <riv> (it is)
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10:02:33 <esolangs> [[Revaver16]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89226&oldid=8169 * Squidmanescape * (+12) I hope this is still worked on.
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11:01:30 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89227&oldid=87461 * Positron * (+532) 
11:02:46 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89228&oldid=89227 * Positron * (+33) 
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12:34:24 <esolangs> [[FP trivia]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89229&oldid=82898 * Fpstefan * (-9) 
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14:13:22 <esolangs> [[Left-Right March]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89230 * DigitalDetective47 * (+3394) Created page with "'''LeftRight March''' is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:DigitalDetective47]]. It works by having a pointer moving across the program, executing ins..."
14:14:05 <esolangs> [[User:DigitalDetective47]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89231&oldid=89214 * DigitalDetective47 * (-2) 
14:14:52 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89232&oldid=89219 * DigitalDetective47 * (+23) /* L */ Add Left-Right March
14:18:17 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89233&oldid=89041 * DigitalDetective47 * (+103) Add Left-Right March
14:20:36 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89234&oldid=89224 * DigitalDetective47 * (+58) /* Implementations */ Add Left-Right March
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14:27:28 <esolangs> [[Left-Right March]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89235&oldid=89230 * DigitalDetective47 * (+197) /* Commands */ Added behavior for e command indexed out of bounds, and added note about invalid commands.
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14:43:43 <esolangs> [[Left-Right March]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89236&oldid=89235 * DigitalDetective47 * (+62) Added more categories
14:50:43 <esolangs> [[Left-Right March/Gallery]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89237 * DigitalDetective47 * (+311) Created page with "This page is an expanded collection of programs written in [[Left-Right March]]. == [[Cat program]] ==  j03ri00a01b05j14s01p18j02l00 == [[Hello, world!]] ==  c09p00c32p00c39p0..."
14:56:26 <esolangs> [[Left-Right March]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89238&oldid=89236 * DigitalDetective47 * (+158) /* Examples */ Added a link to the gallery page.
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17:16:47 <esolangs> [[Left-Right March/Gallery]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89239&oldid=89237 * DigitalDetective47 * (+446) Add text dump program generator
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18:48:56 <esolangs> [[Left-Right March/Gallery]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89240&oldid=89239 * DigitalDetective47 * (+27) Add back arrow
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23:53:43 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89241&oldid=89132 * Rphii * (-2) /* Calculator */ fix (previous wouldn't work)
23:55:28 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89242&oldid=89241 * Rphii * (-2) /* Commands */ simplify command