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00:15:08 <HackEso> The "Bcc:" field (where the "Bcc" means "Blind Carbon Copy") contains addresses of recipients of the message whose addresses are not to be revealed to other recipients of the message.
00:15:19 <oerjan> isn't this unnaturally accurate for wisdom
00:18:08 <imode> that's a straight up copy from a dictionary.
00:18:09 <HackEso> 10656:2017-04-13 <oerjän> ` cd wisdom; mv {\xc3\x84,\xc3\xa4}; mv \'{\xc3\x85,\xc3\xa5}\'
00:18:29 <fizzie> It's a straight up copy from RFC 2822, to be specific.
00:18:58 <imode> but is it a _blind_ copy.
00:19:03 <fizzie> And yeah, well, maybe a few of the entries can be actually accurate, just to catch people off guard.
00:19:16 <oerjan> this dowg is a bit hard to interpret
00:19:39 <oerjan> HackEso's command to show wisdom history
00:20:29 <oerjan> `` echo \xc3\x84,\xc3\xa4
00:20:52 <imode> quotes needed maybe?
00:21:05 <oerjan> `` echo "\xc3\x84,\xc3\xa4"
00:21:10 <oerjan> `` echo -e "\xc3\x84,\xc3\xa4"
00:21:52 <oerjan> `` echo -e "\xc3\x85,\xc3\xa5"
00:22:17 <oerjan> oh that was after the case folding was improved
00:22:24 <HackEso> 10656:2017-04-13 <oerjän> ` cd wisdom; mv {\xc3\x84,\xc3\xa4}; mv \'{\xc3\x85,\xc3\xa5}\' \ 10580:2017-04-03 <oerjän> learn \xc3\x84 is a Swedish geographical feature.
00:22:50 <oerjan> ok i've reached the point where i have no idea what i was thinking :P
00:23:05 <imode> so obscure even oerjan can't decode it.
00:23:11 <imode> you are your own worst enemy.
00:23:25 <fizzie> Well, you know what they say: þÿ.
00:23:33 <oerjan> i'll look it up in wiktionary and see if was deceptively accurate
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00:24:43 <oerjan> i think i was just straight up lying
00:25:05 <oerjan> ("Å" is a swedish geographic feature, namely a river)
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00:25:37 <fizzie> þÿ was out of the table of contents of the recent C23 draft (N2731), which looks like this (at least in Zathura and Evince): https://zem.fi/tmp/toc.png
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00:52:55 <b_jonas> ``` echo $'\xc3\x84,\xc3\xa4' # oerjan:
00:55:56 <b_jonas> oh yeah, I already looked at these
00:57:40 <Melvar> “why doesn't it do the A-Za-z part in the sed transliteration too?” – My question is, why doesn’t it do the specific characters in the `tr` transliteration?
00:57:59 <b_jonas> Melvar: because tr only handles single bytes
00:58:06 <b_jonas> while the names are utf-8 encoded
00:58:24 <b_jonas> and yes, we could use a small perl/python/ruby script
00:58:30 <Melvar> What seriously, tr does bytes?
00:58:37 <Melvar> Who came up with that then?
01:00:37 <b_jonas> Melvar: “Currently ‘tr’ fully supports only single-byte characters. Eventually it will support multibyte characters;” (from the coreutils info manual)
01:12:23 <zzo38> I think working with bytes makes sense, although it can also be useful to be able to work with sequences of multiple bytes (whether or not those sequences correspond to single characters), but perhaps working with sequences of multiple bytes would better be handled by something other than tr anyways, which can deal more properly with regular expressions and match/replace otherwise too.
02:34:23 <zzo38> (Other times, the sequences that you might want, might consist of neither bytes nor of characters, but perhaps blocks of multiple bytes, or lines, etc)
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03:31:26 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89394&oldid=89393 * PixelatedStarfish * (+225)
03:34:47 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89395&oldid=89394 * PixelatedStarfish * (+67) /* BrainSoup Examples */
03:36:55 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89396&oldid=89395 * PixelatedStarfish * (+26) /* BrainSoup Examples */
03:37:19 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89397&oldid=89396 * PixelatedStarfish * (-26) /* BrainSoup Examples */
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05:39:20 <zzo38> There is a 404 error when trying to access the information about thETA programming language, but I think I remember that how it works is that if a division by zero occurs, then it makes a new thread.
05:51:02 <esolangs> [[ThETA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89398&oldid=71007 * Oerjan * (+25) Wayback link
05:51:29 <oerjan> zzo38: not quite, it exits and returns a value to the parent.
05:52:12 <zzo38> O, that's how it works. I may misremembered
05:53:52 <oerjan> also, i fixed the link
05:54:39 <esolangs> [[Template:Wayback]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89399&oldid=75153 * Oerjan * (+1) Use https
05:56:33 <zzo38> Yes, I saw that, now I know how it works.
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10:06:27 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89400&oldid=89389 * Rphii * (+1433) feature enhancement and details on documenting
10:10:22 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89401&oldid=89400 * Rphii * (-5) /* Examples */ there's actually a simpler calculator program
10:10:24 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Guy Fawkes Rep * uploaded "[[File:AlphabetCrossword.png]]": See [[acrostic]]
10:50:51 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89403&oldid=89401 * Rphii * (+1) fix cat example (previous one would loop)
10:52:43 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89404&oldid=89403 * Rphii * (-1) /* cat */ accidentally added a "
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11:38:33 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89405&oldid=89404 * Rphii * (-5) /* FizzBuzz */ repair
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12:54:17 <esolangs> [[Esme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89406&oldid=87621 * PixelatedStarfish * (-22)
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13:45:18 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89407&oldid=89397 * PixelatedStarfish * (+32)
13:46:55 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89408&oldid=89407 * PixelatedStarfish * (+32)
13:47:33 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89409&oldid=89408 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1)
13:47:56 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89410&oldid=89409 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2)
13:48:30 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89411&oldid=89410 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0)
13:49:03 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89412&oldid=89411 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4)
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16:00:08 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89413&oldid=89370 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* BrainSoup */
16:30:57 <esolangs> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89414&oldid=89341 * PixelatedStarfish * (-176)
16:33:03 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89415&oldid=89413 * PixelatedStarfish * (+28) /* BrainSoup */
16:33:17 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89416&oldid=89415 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* BrainSoup */
16:33:35 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89417&oldid=89416 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* BrainSoup */
16:34:20 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89418&oldid=89417 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* BrainSoup */
16:34:33 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89419&oldid=89418 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* BrainSoup */
16:39:22 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89420&oldid=87857 * PixelatedStarfish * (+194) /* Proof of Turing Completeness */
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16:40:16 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89421&oldid=89420 * PixelatedStarfish * (+17) /* Possible Rework */
16:42:16 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89422&oldid=89307 * PixelatedStarfish * (+365)
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18:25:29 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89423&oldid=89412 * PixelatedStarfish * (-67) /* BrainSoup Examples */
18:25:46 <esolangs> [[Alphuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89424&oldid=89383 * PixelatedStarfish * (-66) /* Hello, World! program */
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20:16:54 <esolangs> [[Alphuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89425&oldid=89424 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Hello, World! program */
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20:49:24 <Kit> damn, proving a lang turing complete is a lot harder than i initially thought
20:49:32 <riv> which language?
20:49:56 <Kit> https://esolangs.org/wiki/CLE
20:50:13 <Kit> im trying to implement BCT in it
20:50:28 <Kit> but i am dumb
20:52:53 <Kit> how dare you insult me /s
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21:02:08 <Corbin> Kit: How does computation happen? Maybe as a warmup, how would we construct arbitrary colors?
21:02:43 <Kit> using `R`, `G`, `B`, `C`, etc.
21:04:23 <Kit> i did build NAND, OR, NOR, NOT, XOR, and XNOR gates for it but idk if that proves anything
21:05:01 <Corbin> That would be a great advance, yes; we could use circuit complexity classes, even.
21:13:58 <Kit> you can create any color in a 24-bit RGB space by combining colors and using the "shade" which cuts all the RGB values in half
21:15:30 <Corbin> I wonder what else is needed. Unbounded loops, I guess. Would there be a way to create unbounded recursion, were it not for the finite board?
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21:15:57 <Kit> wdym by unbounded recursion
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21:16:16 <Kit> store a color for later use?
21:16:31 <Corbin> Like, recursing without being confident that it might stop. Looping would work too.
21:17:13 <Kit> you can make a loop by doing `>r<` which would output a red beam every other cycle
21:17:27 <Kit> if that is what you mean?
21:21:37 <Corbin> Kind of. We'd need to find a way to make it unpredictable whether the beam is being output.
21:22:16 <Kit> you can intercept it by adding a filter thatd block the red from crossing
21:23:31 <Corbin> Hm. I wonder if filters could be modulated to create a crude transistor.
21:24:35 <Kit> you can, yea
21:24:51 <Corbin> I guess that the halting criterion for CLE should be whether two cycles in a row have the same outputs?
21:25:31 <Kit> `>r<` outputs one red one cycle and nothing on the next
21:25:33 <HackEso> >r<`? No such file or directory
21:25:39 <Kit> oh shut up
21:25:59 <Kit> on the next cycle it does one red again and nothing again, and repeat
21:27:52 <Corbin> Right. This is a productive loop. If we simulate CLE with a Turing machine, we could imagine writing down the current color for each cycle onto an output tape.
21:31:29 <Corbin> But if we want to find Turing-complete CLE behavior, then we need to imagine that sometimes we stop outputting anything. This means that we need some way to consider the CLE machine done.
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21:34:33 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89426&oldid=89423 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* BrainSoup Examples */
21:35:00 <Kit_> you can have an output "tape"
21:35:21 <Kit_> but idk how you could store that and read any part of it back
21:35:32 <Kit_> you *could* use the tofu but
21:35:56 <Kit_> idk how youd be able to select the element you want
21:37:06 <Corbin> No worries. Right now I suppose I'm looking for ways in which a CLE interpreter would not need to be Turing-complete. Since it's legal and common for a CLE program to run forever, perhaps we should look at the complexity of simulating a single cycle in CLE.
21:38:30 <Kit_> each cell is treated in the exact same way
21:38:50 <Kit_> and it just checks each cell sequentially
21:39:11 <Kit_> every op doesnt access any data outside its cell
21:39:28 <Corbin> Okay. Then I want to quote from [[Brainfuck]]'s section on complexity classes.
21:39:41 <Corbin> "When the array is unbounded, or when the array is at least three cells long and can store unbounded values, brainfuck is Turing-complete, meaning that it is in the same computational class as universal Turing machines."
21:40:55 <Kit_> CLE has bounded integers
21:40:59 <Corbin> Let's take the De Morgan dual of that statement, for CLE. When CLE's board is bounded and the number of possible colors is also bounded, then we have a PSPACE automaton. PSPACE is "polynomial space"; Go and Chess are famous examples.
21:41:36 <Kit_> i think im following what youre saying
21:42:29 <Corbin> If we imagine that the colors are unbounded, then each channel should behave like a real number. We can then do some constructive maths; there are Turing-complete questions like, "Given a description of a real number R, is R equal to zero?"
21:43:40 <Kit_> you can do that, yes
21:44:02 <Corbin> If we imagine that the board is unbounded and that new cells can be dynamically allocated (this is the analogue of Brainfuck's one-dimensional growth to the "right") then we can chop the board into two regions, "left" and "right", and build a two-stack automaton which uses the "left" region for the main "stack" and the "right" region for the "call stack".
21:44:09 <Kit_> i made a NOT gate that outputs if the color is zero
21:45:28 <Kit_> i think i understand
21:45:54 <Corbin> Like, let's imagine that the board is a connected square in an ocean of unused cells. This is the "left" region. If we want to run a statically-known routine, we can pre-allocate space for it here.
21:46:30 <Corbin> The external ocean is the "right" region. To run an unknown routine, allocate its starting space in a *connected* region on the left/right boundary, and then transfer control up into the new region.
21:47:34 <Corbin> In order to really make this work, you might need a way to either pre-format the unknown region with a carefully-chosen arrangement of mirrors and mufflers, or some sort of self-modifying code. Both are "fun".
21:48:55 <Corbin> I think that the real-number color channels would be easier to design but harder to use, and vice versa for the infinite board. Hopefully I'm missing something and these are both much simpler than I'm making it sound!
21:49:08 <Kit_> i was thinking of adding some sort of modification but i thought that might be cheesy (in the way bf derivs are cheesy)
21:49:22 <Kit_> s/modification/self-modification
21:50:15 <Kit_> but the primary problem with having an infinite board is that
21:50:38 <Kit_> theres no way to modify a beam thats on a blank cell
21:50:40 <Corbin> Well, it's just not obvious how an empty infinite board would let you extend your computation. You could emit light out, but you really need to mix it with other light, so you need some mirrors out there to help.
21:51:27 <Kit_> so self-modification can solve the issue but idk how id implement it
21:53:19 <Corbin> The cheesiest way would be sci-fi "building from light", where specific light colors could be mixed to call constructors in a cell. Mixing two colors could require a 48-bit magic value. But this can be messy since it creates forbidden colors that can't be expressed directly.
21:54:34 <Kit_> in order to represent the entire RGB spectrum you do need to do a mixture of shades and RGBs
21:54:42 <Corbin> Another sci-fi possibility is a "Von Neumann constructor", a special cell which takes light from one direction and rebuilds the contents of the cell in another direction. This is known to be Turing-complete for careful choices of direction, even if the only possible modification is to turn any cell into another Von Neumann replicator.
21:55:19 <Corbin> Ugh, IKR? Color spaces are such a headache. Linear RGB really saved my sanity.
21:55:27 <Kit_> i can make a cell
21:55:36 <Kit_> that when is hit with a beam
21:55:40 <Kit_> it duplicates itself
21:56:20 <Kit_> the only problem is that id have to wrangle that into the interpreter somehow as then thatd require accessing cells other than its own
21:56:31 <Kit_> but thats no problem
21:56:54 <Corbin> Yes. And then I think (using folklore) that CLE would be Turing-complete under the question of whether a given program is finished calling the duplicator.
21:59:51 <Kit_> that makes sense
22:00:51 <Kit_> i dont 100% see how that can be considered turing complete but idk
22:04:16 <Corbin> Yeah, maybe not. We might need the constructor to build other types of cells. But then it should be possible to encode a Turing machine and use the constructor to write an output tape onto the board.
22:06:18 <Kit_> im trying to think how that might work
22:08:55 <Corbin> I would have cells which physically implement a write head on the tape, and intend for the tape to grow out in one single direction from the board. Because light can travel down empty corridors, I would let the head be instructed by the light: Write 0 or 1, move left or right, rebuild the entire head at the new position.
22:09:48 <Corbin> The main board would have a tofu for the current machine state, which has the same states as the Turing machine plus a waiting-for-head state. The head could send a signal when it's done building, which would trigger on that final state.
22:09:55 <Corbin> ...Huh, how do conditionals work in CLE?
22:10:38 <Kit_> i mentioned a couple times that i made logic gates work
22:10:39 <Corbin> Oh, so the path to updating the tofu could be filtered by the tofu's current state?
22:11:03 <Kit_> but filters only work on empty cells and on peropendicular beams
22:11:13 <Corbin> You did mention simple gates. Do you have something like an R/S latch?
22:11:31 <Kit_> lemme see if i can make one
22:14:09 <Kit_> yea its possible
22:20:13 <Corbin> Okay. Sorry, I'm having trouble focusing, but OTOH that covers all the moving parts. Please keep asking questions.
22:33:09 <esolangs> [[THIS IS NOT A BRAINFUCK DERIVATIVE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89427&oldid=81838 * PixelatedStarfish * (+9)
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23:55:16 <Kit> Oh, sorry, was busy for a bit
23:57:16 <Kit> as for the self-modifying thing
23:57:42 <Kit> wdym by "write 0 or 1"
23:58:41 <Kit> uh i guess i should state that CLE is a lot like wireworld, in a way? hopefully that clears up any confusion
23:59:03 <Kit> except more... "analog"?