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00:13:44 <oerjan> discord requires giving telephone number? excellent, then i can just put my nagging idea of whether i should visit the other esochannels there in the wastebin.
00:17:19 <Corbin> Yeah. It's unfortunate that they don't yet have a "takeout" way to remove all of your user data, but at least now you know.
00:19:31 <esolangs> [[PRNGP2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90899&oldid=90898 * Salpynx * (+1) /* Self intypo */
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00:31:20 <b_jonas> oerjan: no, it gives the option for forums to require a telephone number from users before they can write, but most discord forums don't actually enable that feature, or only do so temporarily
00:31:49 <b_jonas> oerjan: twitch chat works about the same: you can "verify" your user with a telephone number, and some chat rooms require that, but most streams' chat rooms don't
00:33:07 <b_jonas> oerjan: and it doesn't seem like the esolangs discord enables the telephone number requirement
00:33:31 <b_jonas> oerjan: I don't visit the esolangs discord, but telephone number doesn't figure in it, and I do visit other discord forums
00:36:27 * oerjan picks idea up from wastebin and puts it back on his procrastination stack
00:41:34 <Melvar> I have a vague thought that I had to do the phone number verification to get mod powers on one guild? But it might have been something else that required it.
00:43:04 <fizzie> But does Discord support Befunge-based ways of authenticating your user account? That's where it's at.
00:46:01 <fizzie> I had a really bad time of day 15 in Burlesque. Cobbled together something shortest-path-first for day 1 -- ps)XXS0L[-.s1{}s2{0 0 0}{J[-g2j+]s2J{[-?-)ab++1==}j+]g1rzJcpjf[{g2j~[n!}f[{Jg0jd!0.++]}x/-]0jr~m[p^CL([-)sc{[-j[-==}gb{-][-j)-]<]+]}[m><p^}{[-g1J_+!=}w!it-] -- but while it works for the 10x10 example, it's impractically slow for the 100x100 input.
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00:48:49 <fizzie> Suspect some of that is probably from using CL([-)sc{[-j[-==}gb{-][-j)-]<]+]}[m><p^ -- collect the stack, sort it by X/Y coordinate, group it by X/Y coordinate, keep lowest distance, sort by distance, push back on stack -- as a priority "queue".
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00:50:05 <fizzie> Well, maybe using {[-?-)ab++1==}j+]g1rzJcpjf -- generate all 10000 coordinate pairs, filter it to those at distance 1 from a given point -- to generate the 4-neighborhood gets some credit as well.
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00:55:57 <fizzie> Maybe I'll try 2292 3dg?dj[-cy{.+}Z]2co since it's actually shorter and only generates the four elements.
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00:57:51 <fizzie> Oh, right, except then it'll include out-of-bounds values, that was why I went with the other thing in the first place.
01:00:12 <b_jonas> I should find time somehow to create esolangs. There are like three or four different ones that I should create. One is Consumer society; one is a normal language with just gimmicky syntax but for some reason I haven't seen that gimmick anywhere; and the rest is more toy language where I experiment with weird but not very esoteric ideas, but this may need two languages because of incompatibilities.
01:02:00 <b_jonas> Oh, and there's also an added feature to an existing non-eso language that I should implement and document.
01:02:55 <b_jonas> So yeah, those are on my procrastination list.
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01:09:01 <oerjan> b_jonas: your list isn't a stack? i'm pretty sure mine has the property that the chance of an item being selected is a diminishing function of age.
01:09:50 <oerjan> i suppose it may be a reverse priority list
01:10:08 <b_jonas> oerjan: it's not quite a stack, but yes, old items usually get removed
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01:10:15 <b_jonas> but it's not strictly a stack
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01:12:16 <oerjan> your system sounds way too non-dysfunctional for my taste
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01:30:48 <int-e> oh I broke mroman's online shell link
01:31:13 <int-e> (many months ago I suppose)
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02:07:23 <b_jonas> fungot, are there a lot of owl species, or are you en entomologist?
02:07:23 <fungot> b_jonas: from the very first time, included the resolution.,
02:32:33 <HackEso> While some might think butterflies are descended from flies, that is a false entomology.
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03:53:12 <sprout> https://github.com/egel-lang/aoc-2021/blob/main/day15/task2.eg <- Advent of Code, day 15, task 2 - egel code
03:53:15 <sprout> https://pasteboard.co/EN3DVD0kUahm.png <- with colors
05:40:36 <shachaf> https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2021/12/a-deep-dive-into-nso-zero-click.html seems relevant here.
06:08:26 <HackEso> A device is a browser session. Please verify your device.
06:14:41 <int-e> I saw that googleprojectzero post. I wonder how they made their ALU iterate.
06:16:06 <int-e> (Mainly, is that something that's already in the compression format, or do they need to tweak pointers for that?)
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06:21:15 <int-e> > zip (map intToDigit [0..]) (replicateM 4 [0,1])
06:21:17 <lambdabot> [('0',[0,0,0,0]),('1',[0,0,0,1]),('2',[0,0,1,0]),('3',[0,0,1,1]),('4',[0,1,0...
06:22:14 <int-e> :t fromJust . flip lookup (zip (map intToDigit [0..]) (replicateM 4 [0,1]))
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06:26:26 <int-e> :t fromJust . flip lookup (zip [0..] (replicateM 4 [0,1])) . digitToInt
06:26:41 <int-e> still the same silliness but it works for upper case hex digits
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06:44:29 <zzo38> b_jonas: Do you have any short description of the ideas?
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08:01:55 <b_jonas> zzo38: for Consumer Society no, that one is secret. the rest I can try to describe. for the gimmicky language, first imagine an 80s style imperative language where each statement calls a single function or builtin with each of the input and output operands being variables (or registers if you prefer to call them), so no parenthisized function call syntax. but instead of names for the variables, each
08:02:01 <b_jonas> variable name is represented by a column in the source code text file, and you put a tick mark before or after the opcode name to mark that column as an argument. have four different tick marks depending on whether the opcode is before or after the tick, and for how multiple arguments are ordered, plus two extra for using an input twice. also the column of the opcode is always the first output argument,
08:02:07 <b_jonas> and is also the first input argument if one input argument is missing.
08:02:41 <b_jonas> the hard part is to determine the best syntax for defining user-defined functions. I have some ideas but haven't really decided what's the best.
08:09:07 <b_jonas> for the toy languages, I'm not sure I have a coherent idea, just lots of different ideas that I may want to combine together, and some of them are incompatible so this may need multiple language. one thing that I'd like is an APL-like array language, optimized for the style of low-level loops used in image processing, where the language is lower level than APL in that I give more specific optimization
08:09:13 <b_jonas> hints. axis are named by an ordinal instead of numbered and implicitly renumbered when you remove an axis. the innermost few axis names have special semantics and the next few special optimization hints. the first five axis names are limited to small sizes: namely one axis for the real parts of complex numbers (or quaternions or octonions), two axis for tiny fixed-size matrices to represent lots of
08:09:19 <b_jonas> coordinates in a low-dimensional space, two axis for the color channels or other channels of an image when they're stored together for a pixel. the next one axis is for the columns of a bitmap image, and since each value in this one is small, loops over this have to be optimized carefully. it helps if you can specify expected and minimum and maximum size for any runtime dynamic sized axis.
08:11:03 <b_jonas> besides ordinary functional code with array operations, I'd like to add a lower level mode where you are restricted in what operations you can use, but you can describe more complex loops where the array may need to be looped in a particular order because each output can depend on the previously computed outputs (neighboring pixels) in tricky ways, and there may be multiple outputs or intermediate
08:13:36 <b_jonas> other ideas that I vaguely want to try but are likely even more work for how much they worth include rust with a different syntax but compatible runtime, as well as just writing a somewhat optimizing compiler for C or a similar language to learn how the heck optimizing compilers work, because as far as I understand right now register allocation and inlining are black magic that you can't possibly
08:13:42 <b_jonas> implement in any sane way.
08:15:27 <b_jonas> the more serious modification is a syntax addition to python where instead of just newlines and indenting, you can alternately write compound statements inline with braces. I have a specific syntax picked, and implementing it shouldn't be hard provided that compiling Cpython from source is not hard. the hard part is documenting it and writing a proposal for mainline python that argues for its usefulness
08:15:33 <b_jonas> in such a way that it doesn't immediately get rejected as unpythonlike.
08:19:47 <b_jonas> basically I want to argume that 1. in some contexts, like IRC or a printed book of mostly natural language text, the requirement that you can only write loops and conditionals and function definitions in multiple lines is a hassle. it often gives the choice of either ugly text broken up by newlines where you shouldn't use one, or stupid workarounds where people try to implement something "in one line"
08:19:53 <b_jonas> even though python really doesn't want that. it's kind of similar to when mathematicians insist on using only divison bars for every divison and only superscript for every exponentiation, and then try to stick to that when they mention the pdf of the normal distribution as e**(-((x**2)/2))/sqrt(2*pi)
08:22:14 <b_jonas> 2. even in a real program, where you do use newlines and indentation, sometimes there are parts of the code that are unimportant and obvious, yet currently require too much vertical screen estate to write nicely. screen estate is expensive, it takes up mind space to have to scroll through a program and find the relevant parts, even more so for those of us with vision problems who use a large font (or,
08:22:20 <b_jonas> heaven forbid, a braille terminal).
08:23:52 <b_jonas> reason 3. which I don't want to emphasize too much over the first two but may be the most important to me is that I want to use python interactively, either from the command-line or from the interactive interpreter, quickly editing each part of the short program until it works, and then throw away the whole program, but this is almost impossible when multi-line code is involved, and so sometimes makes
08:23:58 <b_jonas> me use perl even when python would be more suitable were it not for this one stupid synatx restriction.
08:25:00 <b_jonas> I want to emphasize this less, because you can argue that using one-liners from the shell is un-python-like and that you should save even all your short scripts to a proper program source code file that you edit with a text editor. I'm not sure if this is true, but I probably can't convince anyone otherwise because it's somewhat subjective.
08:26:15 <b_jonas> whereas 1. is easier to argue for, because you can find a LOT of python snipets everywhere that try to work the syntax around and write obscure code using eg. list comprehensions and list indexing redundantly.
08:27:50 <b_jonas> obviously I also have to argue why my specific syntax is good, but that matters less because I don't care if a different good syntax gets added instead.
08:28:30 <b_jonas> and yes, HackEso might be a nice testing ground for this.
08:32:23 <zzo38> I don't like the syntax of Python either and those are some of the reasons (although there are others).
08:35:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: well sure, you might also want perl-like variable declarations and a lot of other stuff, but those definitely are un-python-like, and would be much harder to argue to put int he default interpreter or at least the default syntax. this is the one where I can argue that you can put it in the interpreter and programmers will be able to instantly read code that uses it even if they've not heard of
08:36:59 <b_jonas> you could do something more radical like an entirely different syntax with the same runtime behind it so you can call normal python programs, but this one would be a simple easy incremental modification that would reasonably be able to mix within the same program.
08:37:32 <b_jonas> also if you don't like it, you could use pyfmt or whatever their code reindenting tool is called to make it go away, because it's always a trivial syntax rewrite with no temporary variables or other changes needed.
08:38:12 <b_jonas> I may have to implement the formatter modification even though I never use those formatter tools.
08:40:42 <b_jonas> the rust syntax is a harder problem. it doesn't have to be all thrown away, but it can't be just a simple addition to the existing syntax, you'd need one of those syntax modes like the three "editions" right now, and such a thing is hard to even implement and maintain because (1) the syntaxes can be mixed within a source file using macros, and (2) rustc provides really good diagnostics and you don't
08:41:39 <b_jonas> so what I could do there is to experiment with an alternate syntax not in rustc, but in a toy interpreter or compiler if I ever want to write one anyway.
08:43:24 <b_jonas> there are some reasons why I may want to experiment with a toy interpreter even if I don't write a proper (optimizing to native code) compiler.
08:44:37 <b_jonas> and in fact if I do want to write an optimizing compiler, I should try it first on the low-level array language, which is an easier task in some ways because it's not a full general-purpose programming language, but a domain-specific lang that you might embed into bigger code written in a normal language;
08:45:22 <b_jonas> though a custom compiler is not actually a requirement, for actual efficiency it would be better to implement this as using an existing C compiler or LLVM, so the compiler would just be for my own education.
08:47:17 <b_jonas> probably more important than the language stuff is that I'd like to write a text editor, one optimized for using it myself over anyone else using it. the two problems here are that (1) I'm always afraid about this, because if my text editor is buggy and corrupts my files that could be really bad, and (2) I would almost certainly overengineer it, making the backend way more complex than it needs to be
08:47:23 <b_jonas> for its own good and for the actual use cases.
08:47:52 <b_jonas> and of course (2) implies that there will be hard to debug bugs to cause (1)
08:49:24 <b_jonas> the problem for this one is practical, I hate all the existing editors because either I can't make them do what I want (for vim), or they're overengineered in different ways than I want and require me to commit to a religion rather than just an editor tool (stereotype of emacs)
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08:54:03 <zzo38> I also wanted to make some other programming languages and variations of existing ones, such as: something like LLVM with macros to make it more portable, a dice-rolling programming language, a variant of JavaScript (with goto, macros, and no automatic semicolon insertion), and some others.
08:54:24 <zzo38> About the text editor, what things do you need to make it to do?
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08:56:19 <zzo38> I have been able to make vim to display extra spaces the way I wanted it to do by using the syntax highlighting function, instead of using the function for showing spaces, since it is insufficient but the syntax highlighting function works for doing that. (I do not use the syntax highlighting function for the syntax of programming languages, etc)
09:15:35 <int-e> Sigh I found another French game with hard-wired keyboard bindings.
09:16:41 <int-e> d = right, s = down, q = left, z = up. (it recommends a controller. it was also free, so little harm done, except that it looks cute)
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10:01:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: the problem with vim is kind of the opposite of that with emacs. vim is configurable, but it has a lot of historical baggage, and most of the configuration options seem to be kludge layers over the defaults rather than intergrated properly. I really don't like the defaults, and while there are kludges that take vim closer to what I want, they won't make the editor behave consistently like I want
10:02:23 <b_jonas> so I'd either rather have a clean design that does what I want, or take parts of an editor that doesn't have a full religion but is more easily adapted to what I want.
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11:03:45 <esolangs> [[Fairytale]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90900&oldid=90378 * Doubi * (+1265) Added variable definition paragraph
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11:30:45 <sprout> https://pasteboard.co/TJarPW9Gt0Zz.png
11:31:05 <sprout> ˆ AoC, day 16, task 2. egel
11:31:08 <Franciman> sprout: what editor is it? And yay
11:31:37 <Franciman> that's a nice programming lanaguage
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11:51:17 <b_jonas> Franciman: the programming language is probably https://esolangs.org/wiki/Egel
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12:28:07 <fizzie> I've got zz'1+]b6b2{'1==}m[[-{J3.+2ugPp3.-J3.-j3.+2ug4=={{5.-}{-]}w!5.-}j{J[-j-]{J11.-j11.+2ug#ajE!}j{J15.-sax/15.+2ug.-{j!aj}{jL[!=}w!vv}jie}jie}hd!ap\CL++ as a first draft of part 1 in Burlesque. Kind of bulky already, and I've not even evaluated anything.
12:35:35 <fizzie> It would be convenient if Burlesque had a builtin for taking N first elements of a block but also leaving the remainder of the block on the stack, that's what all those J3.-j3.+ and J11.-j11.+ sequences are doing.
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13:25:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh, I forgot one more. only I'm not sure if this one is even possible in theory satisfying all the properties that I want from it. I'd like a djinn language, which is a high-level typed functional language where the source code is made of data type definitions and function prototypes, with no function definitions. the function definitions would be derived from the data types involved and the set
13:25:42 <b_jonas> of function prototypes available, according to some rules, so the body is always composed from a few other functions applied to the arguments.
13:26:21 <b_jonas> but I want the rules to be stable in the sense that if you add more prototypes to an existing program, that may cause an error but it may not result in a valid program with a different meaning.
13:27:13 <b_jonas> and I also want it to be expressive enough that you can translate any reasonable functional program to it.
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13:57:53 <esolangs> [[BWTFN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90901&oldid=74148 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+159) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the BWTFN programming language on GitHub and changed the category tag Unimplemented to Implemented.
14:01:05 <esolangs> [[BWTFN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90902&oldid=90901 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+632) Added an Extended Backus-Naur Form (EBNF) description of the syntax.
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14:02:57 <esolangs> [[User:King Ethan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90903&oldid=55204 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+175) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the King Ethan programming language on GitHub.
14:03:50 <esolangs> [[User:King Ethan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90904&oldid=90903 * Kaveh Yousefi * (-175) Undo revision 90903 by [[Special:Contributions/Kaveh Yousefi|Kaveh Yousefi]] ([[User talk:Kaveh Yousefi|talk]])
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17:54:46 <esolangs> [[User:DigitalDetective47/WIP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90905&oldid=90882 * DigitalDetective47 * (+516)
17:57:21 <esolangs> [[APOL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90906&oldid=90891 * GingerIndustries * (+134) /* Instruction table */
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19:23:16 <esolangs> [[APOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90907&oldid=90906 * GingerIndustries * (+1617) Added code table
19:23:57 <esolangs> [[APOL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90908&oldid=90907 * GingerIndustries * (-22) /* Codepage */
19:25:16 <esolangs> [[APOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90909&oldid=90908 * GingerIndustries * (+32) /* Codepage */
19:26:43 <esolangs> [[APOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90910&oldid=90909 * GingerIndustries * (+6) /* Codepage */
19:29:37 <esolangs> [[APOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90911&oldid=90910 * GingerIndustries * (+1) /* Codepage */
19:58:29 <esolangs> [[APOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90912&oldid=90911 * GingerIndustries * (+66) /* Codepage */
19:58:53 <esolangs> [[APOL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90913&oldid=90912 * GingerIndustries * (-5) /* Codepage */
19:59:09 <esolangs> [[APOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90914&oldid=90913 * GingerIndustries * (+0) /* Codepage */
20:09:54 <esolangs> [[APOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90915&oldid=90914 * GingerIndustries * (+2) /* Codepage */
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20:16:18 <esolangs> [[APOL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90916&oldid=90915 * GingerIndustries * (+39)
20:31:03 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90917&oldid=90871 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* A */ add
20:32:12 <esolangs> [[AlgorE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90918&oldid=59078 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) cats
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