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00:24:19 <oerjan> int-e: fizzie: i really don't agree with the idea of putting anything in /hackenv/tmp/ that cannot be deleted without breaking commands
00:24:45 <oerjan> in fact, we used to have a tradition of regularly wiping the thing
00:28:49 <fizzie> Fair, but I don't really like the idea of multi-megabyte files in the hg repository either. It's already a little unwieldy (~800M).
00:30:57 <fizzie> Then again, it wouldn't be the worst offender, and if it rarely gets updated maybe it's not so bad.
00:31:10 <fizzie> `` ls -l /hackenv/src/factor* # there's things like this already
00:31:12 <HackEso> -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000 33944136 Jul 8 2017 /hackenv/src/factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz
00:31:48 <oerjan> `culprits /hackenv/src/factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz
00:33:13 <fizzie> That's the second-biggest single file there; the biggest I think was powershell__6.0.0-alpha.10-1ubuntu1.16.04.1__amd64.deb (40M) which has been deleted since then, but of course nothing ever actually gets deleted.
00:33:13 <oerjan> `doag /hackenv/src/factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz
00:33:16 <HackEso> 2140:2013-02-15 <oerjän> mv factor-* src
00:33:36 <oerjan> `doag /hackenv/factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz
00:33:39 <HackEso> 2140:2013-02-15 <oerjän> mv factor-* src \ 1175:2012-12-17 <sgëo> fetch http://downloads.factorcode.org/releases/0.95/factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz
00:33:53 <oerjan> this may have been pre-tmp
00:34:35 <fizzie> `` ls -l /hackenv/factor/factor.image # also biggish
00:34:36 <HackEso> -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000 10485760 Jul 8 2017 /hackenv/factor/factor.image
00:35:27 <fizzie> And 50M in five removed-since-then ten-megabyte files in paste/.
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00:44:22 * oerjan swats FireFly out of purée malice -----###
00:45:04 <fizzie> Yes, but the paste function no longer commits to version control.
00:45:06 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.19105
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01:15:56 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91076&oldid=91067 * PixelatedStarfish * (+176)
01:18:11 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91077&oldid=91076 * PixelatedStarfish * (+81)
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01:21:52 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91078&oldid=91077 * PixelatedStarfish * (+214)
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01:44:07 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91079&oldid=91078 * PixelatedStarfish * (+95) /* Instruction Set */
01:44:35 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91080&oldid=91079 * PixelatedStarfish * (+3) /* Instruction Set */
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02:05:51 <int-e> oerjan: yeah it's not nice... we should have another non-tracked but writeable directory somewhere (assuming we don't want 3MB executables in hg, which I think is sensible)
02:07:06 <int-e> (have only checked the nick highlight so far, will check out discussion)
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02:13:09 <int-e> . o O ( /volatile with a /volatile/interps subdirectory, in the interest of having something non-standard :P )
02:20:46 <fizzie> In unrelated news, I just replaced the entirety of S2~-L[J-.rzJcp{J2.+r@jJ2.+r@cp{g2jd!}m[2ugg0j!!}m^jco with just 3CO{{3CO}m[tp{FL2ugg0j!!}m[}m[ which in retrospect was real obvious.
02:23:31 <fizzie> (I was thinking "why isn't there the 2D equivalent of 3CO", but with a little bit of map and transpose it can serve.)
02:29:00 <fizzie> `` Burlesque/blsq --no-stdin '25ro5co'
02:29:01 <HackEso> {{1 2 3 4 5} {6 7 8 9 10} {11 12 13 14 15} {16 17 18 19 20} {21 22 23 24 25}}
02:29:05 <fizzie> `` Burlesque/blsq --no-stdin '25ro5co 3CO{{3CO}m[tp}m['
02:29:06 <HackEso> {{{{1 2 3} {6 7 8} {11 12 13}} {{2 3 4} {7 8 9} {12 13 14}} {{3 4 5} {8 9 10} {13 14 15}}} {{{6 7 8} {11 12 13} {16 17 18}} {{7 8 9} {12 13 14} {17 18 19}} {{8 9 10} {13 14 15} {18 19 20}}} {{{11 12 13} {16 17 18} {21 22 23}} {{12 13 14} {17 18 19} {22 23 24}} {{13 14 15} {18 19 20} {23 24 25}}}}
02:34:44 <esolangs> [[DirectBrainFUCK]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91081&oldid=76875 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+2105) Reformatted and extended the specification, added two example programs, and introduced an implementation in Common Lisp.
02:37:32 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91082&oldid=91080 * PixelatedStarfish * (+16) /* Instruction Set */
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02:43:04 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91083&oldid=91082 * PixelatedStarfish * (+18) /* Instruction Set */
02:44:19 <oerjan> int-e: another non-tracked directory sounds like it would not solve the essential problem, which is that a single command could irretrievable lose information other commands need to function.
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02:46:14 <oerjan> mind you, since you've already mentioned upgrading debian is likely to break this Burlesque binary, even putting it _in_ the repository isn't really sufficient.
02:49:30 <fizzie> I could probably just put the Burlesque binaries in /usr/bin, but that doesn't exactly scale or crowdsource.
02:49:31 <oerjan> which was one reason to put things in src/
02:52:17 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91084&oldid=91083 * PixelatedStarfish * (-42) /* Instruction Set */
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03:38:29 <int-e> oerjan: the update /probably/ won't break it; glibcs tend to be downward compatible for some versions
03:39:33 <int-e> (It works on a non-UML Debian stable (11).)
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05:24:02 <int-e> `relcome disfrutar-conchi
05:24:07 <HackEso> disfrutar-conchi: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
05:52:38 <int-e> fizzie: finally, an effective twist
06:40:03 <BarryNL> disfrutar-conchi: hey Nederlands
06:57:05 <BarryNL> Are there more people from the Netherlands active on esolangs.org?
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07:58:17 <esolangs> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91085&oldid=90657 * Zzo38 * (+159)
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08:34:02 <riv> https://justine.lol/sectorlisp2/
08:35:34 <riv> Dirac Dice..
08:35:46 <riv> doesn't even have input?
08:36:00 <riv> nvm im not logged in
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13:01:24 <sprout> https://ibb.co/KxsFb2Z <- AoC, day 21, task 2 - egel code with impure memoization. spend most time figuring out generators
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14:11:04 <fizzie> I did WD5enri{10rocyj-..-}m[100rocy3co{0 0}{3jx/g_++4MVp^x/.-Jx/bxj[+j-]3MVp^x/.+_+x/j}{>]999<=}w!/v/v<]Cll_++.* for part 1, but now I'm kind of regretting the choice of keeping track of everything on the stack.
14:12:35 <fizzie> 100rocy3co is a nice way of doing that 100-sided deterministic die though, then doing a roll is just a single g_++.
14:23:53 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ginger Industries * New user account
14:25:01 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91086&oldid=91022 * Ginger Industries * (+174)
14:27:29 <esolangs> [[APOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91087&oldid=90925 * Ginger Industries * (+146) Added @
14:37:36 <fizzie> WD5enri{10rocyj-..-}MPjPp0Pp0S0100rocy3coPp{g03.+s0p\g_++jPpx/.-J-]x/.+}{999<=}w!p\jitg0.* if I keep the two different players' states on the two different stacks. Extra code in setup and having to use a map variable for counting rolls (`g03.+s0`) was more than compensated by a much improved score update.
14:45:50 <fizzie> Three characters less if I add a roll counter to the die (100rocy3co → 100rocyzi3co); extracting the current roll gets harder (g_++ → g_)[~++), but it gets rid of the g03.+s0 entirely.
14:52:48 <esolangs> [[APOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91088&oldid=91087 * Ginger Industries * (+116)
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15:40:11 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91089&oldid=91084 * PixelatedStarfish * (+27) /* Grammar */
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15:40:29 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91090&oldid=91089 * PixelatedStarfish * (+13) /* Grammar */
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16:09:23 <esolangs> [[Vyxaaaallalllalalallala]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=91091 * Ginger Industries * (+19) Redirected page to [[Vyxal]]
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17:08:06 <esolangs> [[APOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91092&oldid=91088 * Ginger Industries * (+556) /* Instruction table */
17:09:08 <esolangs> [[APOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91093&oldid=91092 * Ginger Industries * (+4) /* Codepage */
17:16:15 <riv> @tel arseniiv hello h appy christmas
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17:19:29 <arseniiv> don’t like this time of year, dark dark awful. You’d think 45° N should be pretty sunny in winter but noo. Though probably climate matters a lot: at the start of the winter, we have almost only overcast days, and only towards spring anticyclones happen with more sun, though then daytime is way more enough than right now
17:20:16 <arseniiv> btw dear guys how are esolang ideas these times?
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17:30:53 <fizzie> Hmph. I got part 2 done with explicit memoization -- {}{22.*}4E!s0%DD={Jg0jd!J{vvJbc3ro3CB{++jg_x/.+10.%J#r+]l_#rj+..-J#r[+j{<-2co<-\[DD<-}j{vv1rz<-}j0.>ie}Z]tp)++g0#rJ#rD!s0}j{/v}jnuie}WD5enri?d21J_+_+DD>] -- but since Burlesque's allegedly a lazy language, I really wanted to avoid doing that.
17:33:44 <fizzie> Just couldn't quite figure it out. AFAICT, if you bind an infinite list to one of the map variables with `s0` (so that you could refer to it as part of that list's definition), it tries to fully evaluate it. Or something. And of course the list itself isn't on the stack for its definition.
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17:50:04 <b_jonas> I have a question, guys. Suppose you have a finite set of bounded convex shapes in the 2-D plane, pairwise distinct from each other. You say that an object is above the other if any point of one is directly above any point of the other. For some reason, there can't be a cycle among objects, each above the previous one. Note that this would not be true in 3D. How can I prove this? Is there a constructive
17:50:10 <b_jonas> proof that tells me how to sort the objects so neither is above any previous one? What you can't do is to sort them by a key that's derived from just the object, because there is a cycle of four potential objects each above the previous one, only two of those four intersect so you can't have all four in your set.
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18:20:43 <arseniiv> I think I see how a 3d counterexample may look like…
18:20:57 <arseniiv> hm does it say anything to me about 2d
18:24:03 <arseniiv> let axes x, y be horizontal and z vertical. Now we can rotate in xy in 3d and make a loop ≅ S¹ but we can’t do that in 2d, each time we’d get a segment which we retrace when we try to go from a point to itself only horizontally; might it be relevant?
18:25:19 <arseniiv> that one “can’t not retrace” which is true for 2d but not 3d, doesn’t look constructive at all
18:26:57 <arseniiv> trying to reformulate, in 3d there are nonintersecting horizontal paths between two points on the same horizontal plane but in 2d there is the only path between them—this looks constructive
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18:29:57 <arseniiv> so if we go p: A=B then if we need to go q: B=A, we must go backwards, q ≡ p⁻¹; how to frame it constructively… and how to prove that constructively too…
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19:12:41 <arseniiv> b_jonas: why not define for each shape S an above-set A(S) = {P' is above P | P ∈ S, P' ∈ plane} and then for all S1, S2 if A(S1) ∩ S2 is nonempty, have an edge S1 → S2, then topological-sort the resulting graph?
19:15:04 <arseniiv> and while sorting, somehow use that fact that we can’t make a non-self-intersecting horizontal loop
19:17:48 <esolangs> [[APOL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91094&oldid=91093 * Ginger Industries * (+108) /* Instruction table */
19:18:07 <esolangs> [[APOL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91095&oldid=91094 * Ginger Industries * (+3) /* Codepage */
19:20:42 <arseniiv> though I don’t see what form do you want the proof of no cycles be. If “a cycle exists ⇒ shapes intersect” then probably it shouldn’t be complicated?
19:21:01 <arseniiv> ah wait they are pairwise distinct, not pairwise non-intersecting…
19:21:20 <arseniiv> then how does it work at all given that intersecting / and \ make a loop
19:29:59 <b_jonas> they are pairwise non-intersecting aka pairwise disjoint. if I wrote "distinct" that was a typo
19:30:19 <b_jonas> yes, I wrote "distinct". sorry.
19:38:18 <esolangs> [[APOL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91096&oldid=91095 * Ginger Industries * (-13) /* */
19:39:33 <esolangs> [[APOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91097&oldid=91096 * Ginger Industries * (+51) /* Instruction table */
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20:22:20 <esolangs> [[Moaiscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91098&oldid=91017 * Dtp09 * (+23)
20:22:41 <esolangs> [[Moaiscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91099&oldid=91098 * Dtp09 * (+0)
20:31:14 <arseniiv> ah, we probably should define above-sets more strictly, not as A_old(S) = {P' is above P | P ∈ S, P' ∈ plane} but as A(S) = A_old(S) \ S. Now S doesn’t precede itself and we probably can intersect various above-sets to show there can’t be a cycle as “(shape) is above (shape)” is transitive but irreflexive
20:36:37 <arseniiv> then the hard part is to show its transitive closure is still irreflexive when we consider just convex shapes
20:38:08 <arseniiv> ah wait we just need to show antisymmetry. It seems if a shape intersects the above-set A(S) then it can’t intersect the below-set B(S) defined accordingly
20:38:27 <arseniiv> yes, as the shape is convex and it will then intersect S itself
20:39:19 <arseniiv> so we have antisymmetry which IIRC tells us the transitive closure can’t add reflexivity?
20:39:42 <arseniiv> then that’s all, as any cycles prior to it will give us reflexivity
20:41:18 <arseniiv> sorry I’m a bit intrusive I missed this channel though I don’t think I can start to write something useful regularly so I clutched an interesting question
20:46:58 <arseniiv> and it will then intersect S itself => at the second glance, this is not all that obvious. We have a point PS ∈ S below PX ∈ X in our other shape X, and a point QS ∈ S above QX ∈ X, now just because [PS; QS] ⊂ S doesn’t mean by itself that [PX; QX] intersects S but it should after some argument I don’t see immediately
20:51:10 <arseniiv> I think [PX; QX] always intersects [PS; QS], but then why is that?—but this one should be easier to show
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21:23:58 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91100&oldid=91090 * PixelatedStarfish * (+43)
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21:30:57 <esolangs> [[Macron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91101&oldid=81952 * PixelatedStarfish * (+21)
21:32:15 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91102&oldid=91100 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1)
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21:38:05 <esolangs> [[Whopper]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91103&oldid=83344 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) Add categories
21:44:47 <esolangs> [[Unilot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91104&oldid=79049 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) Fix user link
21:46:33 <esolangs> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91105&oldid=68141 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) /* External resources */ Add categories
21:48:36 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91106&oldid=91102 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) Add categories and use wikilinks
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22:00:25 <esolangs> [[Varigen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91107&oldid=90766 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+83) Graphical output
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22:34:49 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91108&oldid=91106 * PixelatedStarfish * (+207) /* Grammar */
22:39:53 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91109&oldid=91108 * PixelatedStarfish * (+58) /* Grammar */
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22:41:48 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91110&oldid=91109 * PixelatedStarfish * (+49) /* Grammar */
22:42:12 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91111&oldid=91110 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Grammar */
22:43:42 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91112&oldid=91111 * PixelatedStarfish * (+66) /* Grammar */
22:44:21 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91113&oldid=91112 * PixelatedStarfish * (+6)
22:45:16 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91114&oldid=91113 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Grammar */
22:46:00 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91115&oldid=91114 * PixelatedStarfish * (+70) /* Grammar */
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22:46:38 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91116&oldid=90941 * PixelatedStarfish * (+14) /* In Chronological Order */
22:48:12 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91117&oldid=91116 * PixelatedStarfish * (+108) /* Unimplemented Languages */
22:48:29 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91118&oldid=91117 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* MacroBeep */
22:52:58 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91119&oldid=91115 * PixelatedStarfish * (-66) /* Instruction Set */
22:53:19 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91120&oldid=91119 * PixelatedStarfish * (+3) /* Instruction Set */
22:57:33 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91121&oldid=91120 * PixelatedStarfish * (+3) /* Grammar in EBNF */
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23:06:54 <esolangs> [[Snak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91122&oldid=90971 * Quintopia * (+9863) actual content
23:07:19 <esolangs> [[Snak]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91123&oldid=91122 * Quintopia * (+1) should've caught that
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23:32:00 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=91124&oldid=91071 * Quintopia * (+11) /* S */
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