01:19:47 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ethan T. Stanger * New user account
01:30:27 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92000&oldid=91958 * Ethan T. Stanger * (+325) /* Introductions */
01:31:02 <esolangs> [[Talk:Verbose]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92001&oldid=37496 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+240)
01:39:38 <esolangs> [[Talk:Suicide]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92002&oldid=40414 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+41) Display title
01:40:28 <esolangs> [[Suicide]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92003&oldid=79616 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+36)
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03:24:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * IGottic * New user account
03:28:09 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92004&oldid=92000 * IGottic * (+33) /* Introductions */
03:28:22 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92005&oldid=91439 * IGottic * (+10) Added "sus"
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03:48:06 <esolangs> [[Sus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92006 * IGottic * (+5587) Created page with "'''Sus''' is an esoteric programming language that is turing complete; it is an alternative BrainFuck. This was something iGottic made in free time originally on the Roblox pl..."
03:50:09 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92007&oldid=91878 * IGottic * (+10) /* S */
03:52:23 <esolangs> [[Sus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92008&oldid=92006 * IGottic * (+7)
03:54:38 <esolangs> [[Sus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92009&oldid=92008 * IGottic * (+18)
03:55:12 <esolangs> [[Sus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92010&oldid=92009 * IGottic * (+1)
03:56:41 <esolangs> [[Talk:Sus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92011 * IGottic * (+18) Created page with "so sus on gor "
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04:11:04 <esolangs> [[User:IGottic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92012 * IGottic * (+54) Created page with "Heya! Find more about me a https://miagobble.github.io"
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07:11:46 <Sgeo_> Turing Tumble has undefined behavior. I'd make a comment about how "it really is a computer, huh", but UB is more of a language thing and TT is more of a hardware simulation
07:12:44 <Sgeo_> (It's not allowed to have a ball drop without it being caught on the next row down)
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09:34:44 <zzo38> In a draft document I had written, I had (currently) assigned code page number 458752 for the CLC-INTERCAL EBCDIC (although this is currently a draft so it may be changed before it is final).
09:38:58 <zzo38> (Although I could not find the documentation, when I did manage to read it, I think it said it is not the same as any IBM code page, but each code matches at least one, or something like that?)
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12:42:48 <esolangs> [[Sus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92013&oldid=92010 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-41) /* How it's Written */ Add missing command to table
12:46:30 <esolangs> [[Sus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92014&oldid=92013 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+98) /* Running the code */ Add categories
13:03:28 <tromp> int-e: never mind about the 263 bit; i figured out the issue
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14:09:10 <esolangs> [[User:WriteOnly]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92015&oldid=84493 * WriteOnly * (+14)
14:11:52 <esolangs> [[User:WriteOnly]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92016&oldid=92015 * WriteOnly * (+126)
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14:32:13 <riv> I have an idea for a custom lego piece to 3d print, it looks like 2 flat 1x2 pieces joined, but it is actually a single solid piece. It cannot be split apart. Do you like this?
14:33:54 <HackEso> This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though. Nobody likes this.
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14:42:57 <FireFly> like two flat 1x2's stacked on top of each other (so like, a 2/3rd high fullsze 1x2)?
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14:48:57 <riv> https://i.ytimg.com/vi/KmP0uiCGzpA/maxresdefault.jpg this
14:51:19 <FireFly> right, kinda cursed, not sure I see the benefit vs just two flat 1x2's tbh :p
14:53:41 <fizzie> AIUI a 2/3rd high thing exists now. Not sure at which width/depth combinations, though.
14:53:56 <fizzie> Someone was complaining about the new Sonic set not using it.
14:54:37 <fizzie> (It's got like a checkerboard pattern made out of a lot of regular flat pieces as stacks of 2 of each color, since I guess that's more or less square?)
14:54:37 <riv> the idea is to hurt peoples nails
14:54:45 <riv> because they will try to get it apart but acn't
14:55:02 <riv> or even maybe cut their gums on it
14:57:52 <oerjan> . o O ( riv is xkcd's black hat guy? )
14:58:39 <oerjan> riv: i may have to kill you for this hth
14:58:41 <riv> my hobby: inventing illegal lego pieces
15:01:28 * oerjan has nail and gum issues
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15:03:31 <riv> soon, you wont be the only one
15:12:16 <riv> what timezone is used by things that travel between timezones?
15:12:21 <riv> like a fast plane or something
15:13:27 <riv> if time travel is invented, will we also need date zones?
15:19:06 <int-e> tromp: I wasn't going to be drawn into abstraction elimination territory anyway.
15:21:17 <tromp> how about minimal CL bases territory?
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15:26:21 <int-e> (I never really liked it (well, trying to optimize the result size), and BLC alleviates all need for that.)
15:30:58 <int-e> I've dabbled a bit in minimal BLC-size bases territory without success.
15:32:54 <tromp> we found a provably minimal (in blc-size) basis.
15:33:19 <riv> what is it?
15:33:53 <tromp> it's VERY close to S. just with an extra K thrown in
15:34:09 <tromp> \x\y\z.x z(y (Kz))
15:34:44 <tromp> in other words, \x\y\z.x z(y (\_.z))
15:35:19 <riv> oh that's nice! its even a single term
15:35:40 <riv> that's a really cool discovery
15:35:44 <riv> does it have a name?
15:35:51 <tromp> only 3 bits more than S, where K is 7 bits
15:36:22 <tromp> it *ought* to be called ioata. but ppl already used that name for the much bigger \x.x S K :(
15:36:46 <tromp> btw, here's a fun fact:
15:37:35 <tromp> with up to 16 of this combinator, you can form at least 2200336 different lambda normal forms
15:37:50 <tromp> guess how many you can form with up to 16 iotas?
15:38:00 <riv> I guess it is a lot more
15:38:11 <tromp> you couldn't be more wrong!
15:38:34 <riv> the exact same number
15:38:55 <Corbin> I'm hoping it's like fifteen.
15:39:36 <int-e> tromp: I see. So my naive approach could've found that in principle, it would just have required, uh, months maybe of computing power.
15:39:39 <tromp> well, it is more than 15:)
15:39:43 <int-e> (And it wouldn't prove optimality)
15:40:15 <tromp> any1 want to guess ?
15:41:02 <tromp> here's the shocker: only 244 (that we could find)
15:41:32 <tromp> in this measure, iota was the worst possible single point basis we could find
15:42:19 <esolangs> [[Quiner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92017&oldid=91950 * Umnikos * (+181) Add a link to an interpreter
15:42:20 <tromp> its only redeeming property it having short derivations for S and K
15:43:14 <tromp> let's call the other one alpha
15:43:43 <tromp> it takes 11 alphas to make K
15:44:43 <tromp> although you can make the equally useful S' = \x\y\z. y z (x z) in 15
15:45:53 <oerjan> I x = x S K, so I I = I S K = S S K K = S K (K K). i'm guessing that all those Ks make it very easy for things to get deleted so many expressions become equal
15:45:58 <int-e> S' = \x\y\z.y z (x z) is produced a bit sooner.
15:46:08 <oerjan> I may not have been the best choice of letter there :P
15:46:27 <tromp> you can make an alpha self interpreter in 249 alpha's; potentially much less
15:46:37 <oerjan> * J x = x S K, so J J = J S K = S S K K = S K (K K). i'm guessing that all those Ks make it very easy for things to get deleted so many expressions become equal
15:46:38 <esolangs> [[User:WriteOnly]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92018&oldid=92016 * WriteOnly * (+2)
15:46:48 <int-e> (S' + K are also complete)
15:47:35 <tromp> yes, that's what i meant by equally useful. you can do bracket abstraction with S' just as well
15:48:37 <Corbin> tromp: Interesting. Could we say that iota is optimized for a short basis and useful short programs, whereas alpha is optimized for a short basis and short normal forms?
15:49:02 <oerjan> J J x = S K (K K) x = K x (...) = x
15:49:08 <tromp> another size 26 basis is alpha'= \x\y\z.y z (x (Kz))
15:49:55 <tromp> it's about half as good as alpha. making 1220869 lambda terms up to size 16
15:50:14 <tromp> (not exactly, but roughly)
15:50:40 <tromp> ioata doesn't make short programs
15:50:53 <tromp> unless your program is S or K :)
15:50:58 <oerjan> are you misspelling iota?
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15:52:18 <int-e> 11 alphas to make a K?
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15:52:43 <tromp> another is \x\y\z. y (Kz) (x z) from which you can generate {T,K,B,W} which I think is abasis
15:53:09 <tromp> yes, K = A(A A)(A(A A)A A A A A)
15:53:39 <int-e> I have ``0`00``````0`0000000 :P
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15:54:54 <int-e> 4 possibilities, apparently
15:55:00 <tromp> btw, \x\y\z. x (Kz) (y z) doesn't seem to work at all as a basis
15:55:35 <tromp> we only managed to generate F and I (among target terms)
15:55:59 <tromp> where F = False = \x\y.y
15:56:40 <tromp> the REAL challenge is finding minimal expression for C = \x\y\z. x z y
15:57:01 <tromp> as it needs a HUGE intermediate lambda term
15:58:38 <oerjan> J I = I S K = S K = K I, which also would swallow up things
15:59:22 <oerjan> so i don't think it's surprising that iota gives few distinct terms
16:03:58 <tromp> oops, I meant the minimal expression for T = \x\y. y x
16:07:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * NR * New user account
16:11:00 <int-e> tromp: you can swap x and y though... which gives S' at size 11, K at size 15, but no S up to size 16
16:14:53 <int-e> (S' + K works because of S = ```S'`S'KS'`KS')
16:15:36 <tromp> you mean S' from 11 alpha' ?
16:16:05 <tromp> i thought it took 13
16:18:51 <tromp> have you found T from lpha?
16:19:13 <int-e> I haven't tried either :-P
16:19:30 <tromp> try. i'm curious what you find
16:20:09 <tromp> is there a size limit on your intermediate lambda terms?
16:23:23 <tromp> oh, then it won't be a challenge for you
16:23:24 <int-e> but there is a cost limit which is connected to size
16:24:29 <int-e> ````0````0`0`000`00``00000`0`00
16:24:30 <HackEso> ```0````0`0`000`00``00000`0`00? No such file or directory
16:26:24 <int-e> tromp: hah, I was checking for S
16:29:27 <int-e> tromp: I have really horrible code which makes me do this: https://paste.debian.net/1226868/
16:30:04 <tromp> , did you see the size of the lambda term from the middle size 9 part?
16:30:25 <int-e> I don't see any intermediate sizes
16:31:16 <tromp> i mean this expression A(A A)A(A(A A)A)A
16:31:46 <tromp> which is A(A A)A applied to itself
16:31:49 <int-e> Hmm, alpha' doesn't make T any more concise at all
16:32:45 <tromp> no;alpha' makes for more concise S' only it seems
16:33:16 <tromp> in some cases much longer
16:33:29 <tromp> like for \x\y. x y x
16:34:14 <tromp> that's one I hadn't found myself yet
16:35:00 <tromp> I found V = \x\y\z. z x y the hardest of simple combinators to find
16:37:04 <int-e> Oh, ```0`0`0`00`0```0```00`00000`00 is \x y z. y x z, not \x y. y x.
16:37:39 <int-e> (where 0 = alpha')
16:39:15 <int-e> So no, there's no size 16 T within my resource constraints (1000 reduction steps, whatever that is precisely in that virtual machine))
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16:41:24 <tromp> i don't limit reduction steps; i only limit expanding steps where the term grows in size
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16:42:43 <tromp> and then i limit it linearly in substitution occurances
16:43:17 <tromp> well, that one is eta equivalent
16:44:33 <int-e> I have my "usual" context-capturing implementation (which could be understood as doing delayed substitutions I think), https://paste.debian.net/1226872/
16:45:19 <int-e> So whatever exponential blowup is there is hidden by sharing.
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16:54:00 <tromp> that looks pretty efficient. but with whnf's you cannot eliminate duplicates?
16:55:16 <tromp> if exponentially many terms all evaluate to the same nf, you'd keep track of them all ?
16:56:32 <int-e> Well, I don't tabulate at all.
16:59:31 <int-e> basically, all other parts are horribly inefficient
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17:14:26 <int-e> even the enumeration of terms... I should've known
17:15:03 <int-e> (ghc floated out a humongous list)
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17:16:14 <int-e> resulting in the program growing to 10G for size 18 terms, tsk.
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17:24:20 <int-e> Anyway I'll let it burn CPU for S and T in terms of alpha' for a bit longer... I will not look for other combinators.
17:27:21 <tromp> yes, my searches barely reach size 17 before running out of memory at 19G
17:27:57 <Corbin> Could a more directed or type-driven search be done? Or maybe you've got a more clever pruning scheme already.
17:28:11 <tromp> but that's still keeping all unique lambda normal forms from alpba terms up to size 15
17:30:26 <tromp> well, this is all in untyped calculus, so i don't see how types could help
17:31:48 <tromp> int-e:could you please add your program to the repo? i'd like to search for some specific terms myself
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17:36:38 <int-e> So this should be a proper T: `````00`0``00`0`0``00000`0`0``0``0000
17:42:38 <int-e> tromp: https://gist.github.com/int-e/2f4b39727cc51dfe07b3b50d0d6c6f0e ...I don't want it in the repo in that shape
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17:47:27 <int-e> but I did fix the tree generation (`gen2`) to not explode in memory usage... though the proper fix would be to use difference lists.
17:48:18 <int-e> Ah, S and T of size 18 respectively: ````000`0`0``00`00`0```0``000``0000 and `````0`0000````0``00`0`00`0``000000
17:48:19 <riv> [1,2,3]+[4,5,6] in javascript, is '1,2,34,5,6'
17:48:31 <imode> what is the alpha combinator.
17:48:44 <int-e> (found with 1000 fuel; 100 fuel wasn't enough)
17:50:11 <tromp> alpha = \x\y\z. x z (y (Kz))
17:51:13 <int-e> and alpha' swaps the inner x and y (or the outer ones; same thing modulo alpha)
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18:04:27 <int-e> tromp: So in what sense is this provably minimal? Does that depend on limiting intermediate term sizes too or is everything smaller ruled out by various syntactic criteria?
18:05:48 <tromp> i'm assuming that in addition to K, a basis needs a 3 argument function
18:06:55 <tromp> this one adds only 3 bits to S. adding 2 bits only allows KS which is not a basis
18:08:47 <tromp> there must be one lambda whose arg is dropped, one whose argument is duplicated, and i assume two that are preserved
18:10:11 <int-e> Hmm. Okay, that doesn't wholly convince me. I mean, BCKW is larger, but the individual combionators have size 19, 19, 7, 15, all of which are smaller than S.
18:10:43 <tromp> yes, S and K are smaller than alpha.but their sumsize is more
18:11:16 <tromp> i claim alpha has minimal sumsize
18:11:17 <int-e> W (which duplicates) and any 10 sized combinator that erases, hmm
18:11:28 <int-e> (would be smaller)
18:12:04 <tromp> K plus all 2 argument preserving/duplicating combs are not universal, right?
18:12:48 <tromp> that's why you have B and C in addition
18:13:15 <int-e> Well, I don't know.
18:13:18 <tromp> i agree that needs more proof:)
18:14:19 <int-e> "probably minimal" I can agree with anyway, and that's just a plausible typo away.
18:15:27 <int-e> and at least it's more organic that iota, that's something
18:16:47 <tromp> the Greek letter iota is the smallest letter of its alphabet
18:17:12 <tromp> so this is more deserving of the name iota...
18:18:01 <tromp> i'd have to convince chris barker though:)
18:19:40 <tromp> well iota' should be the name for alpha' :)
18:19:41 <int-e> . o O ( or just prime, which is smaller than iota )
18:20:11 <tromp> ` for app and ' for alpha?
18:20:31 <tromp> oh boy,that's obfuscation at it's best:(
18:20:41 <int-e> T = `````''`'``''`'`'``'''''`'`'``'``''''
18:20:58 <int-e> (sorry, that's wrong of course)
18:21:01 <tromp> looks like some double quotes ni there...
18:21:08 <int-e> because *that* ' would be alpha'
18:21:32 <int-e> So more like T = `````""`"``""`"`"``"""""`"`"``"``""""
18:21:33 <tromp> i wished ' looked like the mirror image of `
18:22:24 <tromp> wait; you are using double quotes, not single ones
18:22:33 <int-e> because it's alpha'
18:22:57 <int-e> T = ```''````'`'''``'`''''`''
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18:31:03 <int-e> Or maybe the magnified version: T = ╲╲╲╱╱╲╲╲╲╱╲╱╱╱╲╲╱╲╱╱╱╱╲╱╱
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18:36:11 <fungot> fizzie: so i'm in dos promp. in reality i just pick one.
18:36:33 <fizzie> fungot: Retrocomputing again, are you?
18:36:34 <fungot> fizzie: would require me to go ahead with gpl2+ program, it was easier
18:36:53 <int-e> `no hackeso though
18:37:24 <fizzie> Hmm, does the command character prefix suppress the default nickname recognition?
18:38:10 <esolangs> [[Init]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92019 * WhyNot? * (+503) Started
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18:43:38 <esolangs> [[Init]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92020&oldid=92019 * WhyNot? * (+207)
18:44:43 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92021&oldid=92007 * WhyNot? * (+11)
18:45:15 <HackEso> 568) <Phantom_Hoover> I think the worst part of growing up is that it isn't retroactive.
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18:46:12 <int-e> Weird one, I can't even picture that.
18:47:37 <int-e> Because that whole arduous and slow process of growing up is such an integral part of what it means to be human.
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18:51:38 <oerjan> i vaguely think it may refer to the horror of realizing all the stupid stuff you did before growing up hth
18:52:52 <int-e> Sure, I can follow along that far. But imagine it /actually/ being retroactive...
18:53:07 <int-e> Also, there's this great filter called forgetting things.
18:53:26 <esolangs> [[Init]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92022&oldid=92020 * WhyNot? * (+505)
18:53:38 <int-e> Which may be alien to Millenials I guess.
18:53:50 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Filter
18:53:58 <int-e> Hate that typo, know why it's bad, still make it all the time...
18:56:26 <int-e> That whole do-aliens-exist thing is so speculative though. We have no idea what the odds really are; all we really have to go on is P(we exist | we exist) = 1, and a bunch of negatives that put an upper bound on the probability of other civilizations existing.
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21:05:07 <esolangs> [[User:A casual user]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92023&oldid=91887 * A casual user * (-1)
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21:05:30 <esolangs> [[User:A casual user]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92024&oldid=92023 * A casual user * (+19)
21:06:44 <esolangs> [[Hello, golf!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92025&oldid=91669 * A casual user * (+24)
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21:56:21 <esolangs> [[Init]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92026&oldid=92022 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+112) Add categories; fix link to userpage
21:58:29 <tromp> int-e: is gen2 more of a time or more of a memory savings over gen?
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22:03:38 <tromp> how is f x | y <- x:[] = ... different from f x = let y = x:[] in .... ?
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22:08:52 <shachaf> I think in this case where y is an irrefutable pattern it should come out to the same thing.
22:09:30 <shachaf> Unless you're being sneaky with the ..., I suppose (e.g. if it contains a where).
22:10:05 <tromp> no, nothing sneaky, just reading some int-e code
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22:10:39 <tromp> he's repeating the variable
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22:11:00 <tromp> so like f x | x <- x:[] = ....
22:11:16 <tromp> so let would just loop
22:11:29 <tromp> or give type error in this case
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22:39:34 <int-e> tromp: gen2 enumerates trees (applications of the given leafs), gen enumerates arbitrary terms
22:40:45 <int-e> and f x | y <- x:[] = ... mostly is equivalent to f x = let y = x:[] ... but the <- isn't recursive
22:41:06 <int-e> which I consider to be a feature
22:41:17 <int-e> I am overusing that style though, i think
22:43:31 <int-e> tromp: I used `gen` when I was trying to find bases, but it was too much (i.e., the search space was too big when multiplied by the time taken by `gen` and evaluation)
22:43:45 <int-e> err the second `gen` should be `gen2`
22:44:12 <int-e> oh sorry, you figured out the non-recursive bit yourself...
22:44:35 <tromp> not for the first time, i now remember seeing this years ago
22:44:57 <tromp> i look forward to figuring it out again some years from now:)
22:46:25 <tromp> ok, i should rephrase my question
22:46:46 <tromp> is the use of k <- [1..s`div`2] and mirroring more of a time or memory savings?
22:47:11 <tromp> ok, that makes sense.
22:47:52 <int-e> I mean, it's still floating out the second generated list but now it's of a much more manageable size
22:48:00 <tromp> it's very modest indeed now. using just 3MB while searching depth 19
22:48:42 <int-e> and I was too lazy to change it to difference lists (you lose a lot of the convenience of list comprehension on the way)
22:53:45 <int-e> Oh, changing the type to (L -> L) -> Int -> [L] would've been an option.
22:54:30 <int-e> (incorporating a `map`, which would fix the floating out issue by incurring an actual data dependency)
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23:29:09 <oerjan> > let f x | let y = x:[] = y in f "whistles innocently"
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23:31:46 <HackEso> ``ͺͺ````ͺ`ͺͺͺ``ͺ`ͺͺͺͺ`ͺͺ? No such file or directory
23:32:02 <salpynx> or ˎˎˎͺͺˎˎˎˎͺˎͺͺͺˎˎͺˎͺͺͺͺˎͺͺ if you want them aligned
23:37:25 <HackEso> U+037A GREEK YPOGEGRAMMENI \ UTF-8: cd ba UTF-16BE: 037a Decimal: ͺ \ ͺ \ Category: Lm (Letter, Modifier) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ Decomposition: <compat> 0020 0345
23:37:56 * oerjan was at that wikipedia page earlier
23:38:17 <salpynx> yeah, I was trying to remember the hackeso command to display that
23:38:41 <HackEso> [U+037A GREEK YPOGEGRAMMENI]
23:38:55 <oerjan> (that's short for unidecode hth)
23:40:18 <salpynx> The other possibility I thought of was using Hebrew Yod for an alternate derivation of that letter, but that gives RTL display issues
23:40:57 <HackEso> [U+05D9 HEBREW LETTER YOD]
23:42:25 <fizzie> But is 'decode' just 'de'? Whoa.
23:46:59 <salpynx> I had to look up the Unicode for the iota-subscript, but knew it existed... now very oddly it turns out, the author of ref #1 on the wikipedia iota page is one of the people who taught me ancient Greek.