00:12:31 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 00:13:17 what is the BLC notation for this alpha / smaller iota? 00:18:40 -!- olsner has joined. 00:54:21 I'm not sure what to do with the Kz , (\_.z) at the end, I'm clearly doign at least one thing wrong to come up with length 29:  00 00 00 00 01 11110 01 110 01 1110 110 01:37:16 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 02:03:44 -!- eli_oat has joined. 02:10:01 -!- kit-ten has joined. 02:11:13 [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92027&oldid=84071 * Photon Niko * (+766) CIrcles? 02:14:00 -!- kit_ten has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 02:26:00 -!- lagash has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:30:23 -!- lagash has joined. 02:57:00 -!- eli_oat has quit (Quit: eli_oat). 02:58:30 I think it is: 00 01 10 00 00 00 01 110 01 1110 110 03:00:57 λ.1(λλλ.2(3 2)) instead of λλλλ.4 2(3 2), which was what my first attempt was (barring notation errors) 03:01:31 salpynx: alpha is 00 00 00 01 01 1110 10 01 110 00 110, alpha' is 00 00 00 01 01 110 10 01 1110 00 110 03:03:00 \x\y\z. x z (y (\_. z)) and \x\y\z. y z (x (\_. z)) 03:04:57 thanks, let me process that in terms of how I've been working to figure out where I went wrong... 03:08:22 so:  λλλ. (2 1) (3 λ.2)   in De Bruijn format? 03:09:06 yes. 03:20:39 I got the associativity direction wrong on the original lambda notion. I went wrong on the first step :( 03:35:33 why is (\_. z)  =   00 110   and not 00 00 110 ? I can't see where in a description of BLC / De Bruijn  / Lambda notation why a lambda taking one argument (00 x in BLC) can refer to the second argument 03:36:23 \_. z is not a closed term by itself; z is free there 03:36:42 but there's three more lambdas further out 03:37:24 so that's the significance of the underscore symbol? 03:37:58 it just indicates that the variable is unused 03:38:10 we could write \w.z instead 03:39:13 so 00 1110 would also be valid 03:39:36 but 00 11110 would be an error in that position? 03:39:55 no that would still be fine 03:40:45 111110 would no longer refer to any of the lambdas 03:41:31 which lambda does 11110 refer to? 03:41:48 the outermost one 03:41:53 that is, the first one 03:42:29 i.e., with names: \x\y\z. x z (y (\_. x)) 03:44:13 the unnamed _ would have index 1, z has index 2, y has index 3, x has index 4; there's nothing beyond that 03:45:00 maybe let's fully parenthesize the thing? alpha = \x\y\z. ((x z) (y (\_. z))) 03:46:42 (the convention is that lambdas extend as far as possible to the right) 03:47:13 oh, I see, it's pretty straightforward; within \_, if z is 110, y is 1110 and x is 11110, and 111110 is undefined 03:49:31 Thanks, I think I've cleared up all my confusion on this. In the past I've always had to try and understand lambda calculus in terms of combinators, which made far more sense to me. 03:53:34 There's nothing like working on a problem and making a bunch of mistakes to cement understanding... 04:15:35 -!- razetime has joined. 04:16:02 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dorcelessness * New user account 04:22:30 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92028&oldid=92004 * Dorcelessness * (+208) 04:25:24 [[User:Dorcelessness]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92029 * Dorcelessness * (+138) Created page with "I exist and do things. I'm currently making a sort of concept for an esolang that has no name, but it should be interesting. any pronouns" 04:26:39 [[User:Dorcelessness]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92030&oldid=92029 * Dorcelessness * (+100) 04:26:49 [[User:Dorcelessness]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92031&oldid=92030 * Dorcelessness * (+3) 04:59:33 [[Razetime]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92032 * Razetime * (+27) Redirected page to [[User:Razetime]] 05:25:14 [[Quiner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92033&oldid=92017 * Razetime * (+135) Add hello world, bqn interpreter 05:25:31 [[Quiner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92034&oldid=92033 * Razetime * (-1) 06:29:57 -!- SGautam has joined. 06:30:56 Is this correct?: \x\y\z\_. x z (y z) == \x\y\z. x z (y (\_. z)) 06:31:13 If so, I got my first attempt half right by getting an equivalent De Bruijn form: λλλλ. (4 2)(3 2), but messed up the BLC slightly. It would still give 29 bits this way, so not as good as 26. 06:49:49 -!- impomatic has joined. 06:49:56 -!- impomatic has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:50:12 -!- impomatic has joined. 06:53:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 06:53:42 -!- impomatic has joined. 06:57:51 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 06:58:14 -!- impomatic has joined. 07:08:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 07:08:39 -!- impomatic has joined. 07:22:51 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 07:23:13 -!- impomatic has joined. 07:33:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 07:33:41 -!- impomatic has joined. 07:37:51 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 07:38:12 -!- impomatic has joined. 07:53:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 07:53:42 -!- impomatic has joined. 07:57:12 -!- razetime has quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.). 08:07:51 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 08:08:11 -!- impomatic has joined. 08:13:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 08:13:41 -!- impomatic has joined. 08:17:54 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 08:18:15 -!- impomatic has joined. 08:22:45 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:33:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 08:33:39 -!- impomatic has joined. 08:42:51 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 08:43:13 -!- impomatic has joined. 08:53:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 08:53:42 -!- impomatic has joined. 09:07:50 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 09:08:09 -!- impomatic has joined. 09:13:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 09:13:40 -!- impomatic has joined. 09:22:51 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 09:23:11 -!- impomatic has joined. 09:33:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 09:33:39 -!- impomatic has joined. 09:37:51 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 09:38:12 -!- impomatic has joined. 09:40:33 salpynx: no, that's not correct 09:41:14 this alpha is not a regular combinator, you cannot push the last \_ to the front 09:42:35 so it doesn't correspond to a single rewrite rule like the regular combinator S x y z = x z (y z) that only has variables on the right 09:43:06 the best you can do is alpha x y z = x z (y (K z)) 09:43:29 since K z = \_.z 09:48:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 09:48:38 -!- impomatic has joined. 09:49:11 -!- SGautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 09:52:58 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 09:53:18 -!- impomatic has joined. 09:58:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 09:58:39 -!- impomatic has joined. 10:07:50 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 10:08:09 -!- impomatic has joined. 10:13:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 10:13:39 -!- impomatic has joined. 10:22:50 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 10:23:12 -!- impomatic has joined. 10:38:32 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:39:33 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 10:42:09 -!- __monty__ has joined. 10:49:35 -!- salpynx has quit (Quit: Client closed). 10:58:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 10:58:42 -!- impomatic has joined. 11:08:06 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 11:08:25 -!- impomatic has joined. 11:18:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 11:18:39 -!- impomatic has joined. 11:23:01 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 11:23:21 -!- impomatic has joined. 11:56:54 -!- jix_ has joined. 11:56:54 -!- jix has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:58:15 [[Quiner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92035&oldid=92034 * Umnikos * (+199) Order the example code snippets better 12:02:23 [[Quiner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92036&oldid=92035 * Umnikos * (+50) Further clarify "a/?" 12:03:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 12:03:39 -!- impomatic has joined. 12:04:53 [[Quiner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92037&oldid=92036 * Umnikos * (+106) Clarify what happens with a big a in "a*" 12:12:51 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 12:13:10 -!- impomatic has joined. 12:20:26 [[Quiner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92038&oldid=92037 * Umnikos * (+64) Add a truth machine example 12:31:53 [[Quiner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92039&oldid=92038 * Umnikos * (+22) Add an example of a quine 12:33:10 -!- tech_exorcist has joined. 12:33:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 12:33:39 -!- impomatic has joined. 12:37:51 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 12:38:11 -!- impomatic has joined. 12:47:46 [[Quiner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92040&oldid=92039 * Umnikos * (-3) Shorten shorter loop 12:48:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 12:48:39 -!- impomatic has joined. 12:52:50 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 12:53:11 -!- impomatic has joined. 13:08:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 13:08:39 -!- impomatic has joined. 13:12:00 `js [1,2,3] + [4,5,6] // TIL, via Twitterers 13:12:06 1,2,34,5,6 13:12:51 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 13:13:10 -!- impomatic has joined. 13:35:41 [[Init]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92041&oldid=92026 * WhyNot? 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* (+59) 14:44:43 [[User talk:SunnyMoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92045&oldid=91997 * SunnyMoon * (+216) Secret message: I am dumb 14:53:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 14:53:39 -!- impomatic has joined. 14:54:33 -!- ^[ has joined. 14:57:54 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 14:58:13 -!- impomatic has joined. 15:03:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 15:03:41 -!- impomatic has joined. 15:07:51 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 15:08:10 -!- impomatic has joined. 15:11:01 [[User:WhyNot?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92046&oldid=88620 * WhyNot? * (+11) 15:12:42 [[Impossible.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92047 * WhyNot? * (+78) Created page with "(Made by [[WhyNot?]]) This language is impossible. Therefore, there is no use." 15:13:26 [[Impossible.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92048&oldid=92047 * WhyNot? * (+5) 15:14:56 [[Impossible.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92049&oldid=92048 * WhyNot? * (+60) 15:15:51 [[User:WhyNot?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92050&oldid=92046 * WhyNot? * (+18) 15:18:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 15:18:39 -!- impomatic has joined. 15:22:51 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 15:23:11 -!- impomatic has joined. 15:28:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 15:28:20 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:28:39 -!- impomatic has joined. 15:32:52 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 15:33:14 -!- impomatic has joined. 15:53:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 15:53:41 -!- impomatic has joined. 15:57:50 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 15:58:12 -!- impomatic has joined. 16:10:06 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 16:14:32 tromp: eww that means there's still a challenge to find a "proper" complete combinator? 16:15:16 (obviously iota isn't proper in that sense either) 16:16:22 -!- b_jonas has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 16:16:23 we can say alpha is the least irregular of all single point combinators. i'm sure a regular one is impossible 16:16:38 -!- b_jonas has joined. 16:16:53 alpha only has one lambda inside an application 16:18:59 if a regular combinator erases one of its variable, then it has an application of K not to a variable but to some term, which I think prevents deriving K from it 16:21:32 -!- eli_oat has quit (Quit: eli_oat). 16:27:25 -!- eli_oat has joined. 16:43:04 -!- earendel has joined. 16:46:17 [[Init]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92051&oldid=92044 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-57) /* Language */ remove outdated categories 17:03:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 17:03:40 -!- impomatic has joined. 17:07:50 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 17:08:13 -!- impomatic has joined. 17:19:33 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 17:19:34 -!- tech_exorcist has left (Leaving). 17:22:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:36:07 [[QWOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92052&oldid=86650 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+160) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the QWOP programming language on GitHub. 17:40:47 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:43:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 17:43:19 -!- dyeplexer has joined. 17:43:38 -!- impomatic has joined. 17:47:51 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 17:48:11 -!- impomatic has joined. 17:54:30 -!- immibis_ has joined. 17:54:33 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:03:43 -!- immibis has joined. 18:06:11 -!- immibis_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:17:40 -!- dyeplexer has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:22:38 -!- eli_oat has quit (Quit: eli_oat). 18:28:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 18:28:39 -!- impomatic has joined. 18:32:51 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 18:33:10 -!- impomatic has joined. 18:47:08 -!- eli_oat has joined. 18:47:22 -!- eli_oat has quit (Client Quit). 18:48:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 18:48:38 -!- impomatic has joined. 18:52:51 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 18:53:10 -!- impomatic has joined. 18:58:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 18:58:42 -!- impomatic has joined. 19:02:50 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 19:03:09 -!- impomatic has joined. 19:18:19 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in). 19:19:34 -!- op_4 has joined. 19:33:46 -!- impomatic_ has joined. 19:34:01 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:34:02 -!- impomatic_ has changed nick to impomatic. 19:37:50 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 19:38:10 -!- impomatic has joined. 19:43:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 19:43:39 -!- impomatic has joined. 19:47:50 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 19:48:11 -!- impomatic has joined. 19:58:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 19:58:38 -!- impomatic has joined. 20:02:50 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 20:03:10 -!- impomatic has joined. 20:18:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 20:18:39 -!- impomatic has joined. 20:20:12 -!- salpynx has joined. 20:22:51 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 20:23:12 -!- impomatic has joined. 20:26:03 tromp: Right, the internal Kz can potentially be used _multiple_ times to swallow variables, depending on y. Putting it at the front, like I did, only swallows one. I tried with super simple examples (x=I, y=I. z=I) and (x=I, y=K, z=I) and got identical results. Using (x=I, y=S, z=I) shows the difference though. 20:28:07 * oerjan doesn't understand tromp's argument that no single proper combinator can be a basis, but assumes it must be true since none seems to be known 20:28:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 20:28:34 alpha looks very like the S combinator, but with that internal K, which can be utilised to do K-like things depending on the values of x, y, z 20:28:39 -!- impomatic has joined. 20:29:11 oerjan: there's a single combinator basis. I think a guy named Fokking wrote a paper on it 20:29:15 Fokker? 20:29:19 whoever 20:29:46 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF03180572 20:30:41 alpha fits that description 20:30:55 namely, it's "a single closed lambda-expression" 20:31:44 sprout_: _proper_ here means it must be of the form \v1 ... vn. P(v1, ..., vn) where P only does applications of the variables to each other 20:31:52 like S, K and I are 20:32:22 oh right. I have no idea 20:32:50 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 20:33:10 -!- impomatic has joined. 20:38:41 so that's what I was just seeing, that alpha is basically S, (S = x z (y z)), but with that second z replaced with a K z -- so y is operating on something other than one of the variables, therefore breaks the defn of 'proper' 20:49:01 hmm.. so my mistake above was proper, but I'm guessing is extremely unlikely to be a complete basis :) 20:51:33 -!- __monty__ has joined. 20:57:33 oh tromp called it "regular" rather than "proper". 20:58:06 i think the other term was used in some wikipedia discussion or article i looked at 21:03:26 that's from footnote 1 on page 12 of https://lmcs.episciences.org/6522/pdf but i recall seeing it elsewhere too 21:04:25 hm i think i understand ... 21:04:47 or wait 21:05:05 [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92053&oldid=91914 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Proof of Turing Completeness */ 21:08:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 21:08:39 -!- impomatic has joined. 21:11:56 [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92054&oldid=92053 * PixelatedStarfish * (+17) /* Interpreter Specifications */ 21:12:50 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 21:13:09 -!- impomatic has joined. 21:13:26 int-e: I tried adding a reader to your code, but keep getting no parse errors. : https://pastebin.com/1061in22 21:16:04 [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92055&oldid=92054 * PixelatedStarfish * (+5007) /* Test Cases */ 21:16:29 To what code? 21:17:18 some code he pasted earlier 21:17:36 for finding terms over some combinatory basis 21:18:42 [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92056&oldid=92055 * PixelatedStarfish * (+5680) /* Test Cases */ 21:20:50 I'm not sure what the type L is exactly, but that Read instance looks reasonable to me, except that it seems to be reading an integer, which will take all the digits it can. 21:21:12 So `11 will be read as applying 11 to nothing, rather than 1 to 1. 21:21:19 [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92057&oldid=92056 * PixelatedStarfish * (-400) /* Test Cases */ 21:21:24 But e.g. `1^1 should be parsed correctly. 21:22:45 ah, thx. now i see how to fix it 21:23:02 needed to use schar c = do skipSpaces; _ <- char c; return () 21:23:18 which let's me separate ints by spaces 21:29:22 That works. 21:52:00 -!- earendel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 21:53:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 21:53:39 -!- impomatic has joined. 21:57:50 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 21:58:13 -!- impomatic has joined. 22:03:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 22:03:39 -!- impomatic has joined. 22:07:51 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 22:08:10 -!- impomatic has joined. 22:11:09 "1 A regular combinator is a combinator in which no lambda abstraction occurs inside function application." footnote 1, p.12, On properties of B-terms. / Ikebuchi, Mirai; Nakano, Keisuke. In: Logical Methods in Computer Science, Vol. 16, No. 2, 8, 2020, p. 1-23. 22:23:37 https://olydis.medium.com/one-point-bases-for-%CE%BB-calculus-4163b1b326ad seems relevant. alpha is missing but there are some similar in spirit. 22:47:13 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 22:48:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 22:48:38 -!- impomatic has joined. 22:49:33 . o O ( ^`00 is a bit hard to read :) ) 22:57:51 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 22:58:10 -!- impomatic has joined. 22:58:48 -!- __monty__ has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:08:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 23:08:38 -!- impomatic has joined. 23:12:51 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 23:13:10 -!- impomatic has joined. 23:46:53 -!- kit_ten has joined. 23:51:02 -!- kit-ten has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:53:19 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 23:53:42 -!- impomatic has joined. 23:57:50 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 23:58:10 -!- impomatic has joined.