00:05:00 <salpynx> I think the TL:DR of my report is: I(I), where I is the identity function defined in terms of 10 alphas, results in an infinite loop if not lazily evaluated.
00:05:40 <salpynx> .... which isn't really a problem
00:22:18 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kman * New user account
00:33:16 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92077&oldid=92075 * Kman * (+287) /* Introductions */
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00:50:00 <oerjan> huh i accidentally lost the digit at the end of that diff url and learned you can actually get diffs between completely different articles
00:52:22 <zzo38> I didn't know that
00:53:52 <oerjan> might be useful to check copy/paste moves
00:56:20 <llk> Does anybody know the name of esolang that was inspired by Wookiee language from Star Wars?
00:59:00 <zzo38> llk: I don't know.
01:00:49 <oerjan> apparently the word "wookie" is nowhere on our wiki
01:01:37 <oerjan> neither are "chewbacca" or "kashyyyk"
01:02:16 <oerjan> but those would be my guesses for names
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01:21:41 <fizzie> fungot: Do you always let the wookiee win?
01:21:41 <fungot> fizzie: c-x 0? eb 1 and so on, and set
01:21:52 <fizzie> fungot: Beep boop I am a robot?
01:21:53 <fungot> fizzie: have you tried your lecture notes, there are several
01:27:24 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92078&oldid=89598 * Kman * (+702) Added algorithm to move pointer x cells right/left
01:27:31 <oerjan> fizzie: i think fungot is an expert on chewbacca defense
01:27:32 <fungot> oerjan: that's what chicken's release versions do not have to actually produce valid states. things work out though, how to use
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01:33:16 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92079&oldid=92078 * Kman * (+102) Added small description & amendment
01:34:14 <esolangs> [[User:Kman]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92080 * Kman * (+113) Created page with "Intellectual property is not property - ~~~~"
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04:23:02 <Soni> does anyone want to take over gd-irc? https://gd-irc.github.io/
04:27:22 <int-e> salpynx: neededness makes a huge difference: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/alpha-i-min.html (bottoms represent larger terms that are irrelevant)
04:28:45 <int-e> And the longest intermediate term for S becomes `````^^^``20⊥α⊥````αα⊥^^`α^α⊥``α^`α^α^````αα⊥^^`α^α⊥````αα^``α^α^````αα`αα^`α`α``αα`αα^`α^α^`````αα`αα^`α`α``αα⊥^`α^α^``α^α^````αα`αα^`α`α``αα⊥^`α^α⊥
04:29:02 <int-e> (not requiring thousands of alphas anymore)
04:50:06 <int-e> salpynx: as for terminology; there's a distinction between "weak normalization" (a term that has a normal form is weakly normalizing) and "strong normalization" (any sequence of reductions (beta-steps) produces a normal form) which is connected to this. people also study reduction strategies, which makes this far more finely grained.
04:51:05 <int-e> always reducing the leftmost outermost redex is such a strategy; it's normalizing, meaning that if a term has a normal form, leftmost outermost reduction will find it
04:51:45 <zzo38> Soni: About calling the "real name" field as "user data" instead, I think it is good, since it does not necessarily contain your real name. There they suggest genders (which a user can do if they want to do), but you can put other stuff too.
04:53:20 <zzo38> (Note that I do not have emoji in my computer, and do not intend to.)
05:32:19 <Soni> zzo38: we used to dislike emoji some many years ago. still kinda do, particularly with faces/emotions/etc
05:33:12 <Soni> but we guess we like them nowadays, at least sometimes
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05:47:43 <zzo38> Well, some people do, and some people don't (at least sometimes), I suppose.
05:50:55 <zzo38> (I also dislike Unicode in general, but that is different.)
05:50:59 <Soni> we struggle with face emoji. the usual :) / :( / ;-; / <3 / etc are nicer
05:53:45 <Soni> zzo38: tbh we just wish they acknowledged bold and italics as being part of the script
06:01:08 <Soni> (or made it turing-complete :v)
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06:12:28 <esolangs> [[Talk:!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92081&oldid=81599 * Citrons * (+109) irony eliminated.
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06:28:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dummiedummie * New user account
06:35:36 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92082&oldid=92077 * Dummiedummie * (+152) /* Introductions */
06:37:07 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92083&oldid=92082 * Dummiedummie * (+13) /* Introductions */
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07:38:26 <tromp> very artistic, int-e!
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07:58:19 <tromp> speaking of artistic, here's some nice Postscript code: /t{dup 1 sub gsave dup 0 gt{[.4 .2 -.2 .4 .4 .2]concat t currentgray .8 mul .2 add setgray -1 1 scale t -1 2 translate t 1 -1 scale t[0 1 1 0 0 2]concat t pop}{0 moveto 1 0 lineto 0 2 lineto closepath clip fill}ifelse grestore}def 10 10 translate 600 600 scale 5 t showpage
08:00:31 <tromp> almost qualifies as esoteric:-)
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08:08:39 <zzo38> It look like it does not fit on the page (unless you use a bigger page)? Not bad, though
08:34:50 <tromp> don't worry, the part above the page is identical to some part on the page:)
08:35:38 <tromp> it's Conway's pinwheel tiling
08:36:23 <tromp> you can also find it as a signature on the bottom of my home page, with a link to its output
08:41:03 <esolangs> [[Return()zero]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92084 * Dummiedummie * (+6026) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=return()->0}} return()->0 is a language that returns a value for everything you do. ==Data types== Strings: <code>"Hello!", "", "1234", etc.</code> Any non-..."
08:41:47 <esolangs> [[Return()zero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92085&oldid=92084 * Dummiedummie * (+25)
08:44:30 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92086&oldid=92021 * Dummiedummie * (+19) /* R */
08:44:34 <zzo38> O, that is what it is. OK
08:46:55 <zzo38> (It is also possible to add code to specify a larger page by the setpagedevice command, though)
08:56:21 <esolangs> [[Return()zero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92087&oldid=92085 * Dummiedummie * (+45)
08:59:48 <esolangs> [[Dirac]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92088&oldid=92067 * Palaiologos * (+991) barebones documentation
09:03:07 <esolangs> [[Dirac]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92089&oldid=92088 * Palaiologos * (+133) hex constants
09:17:24 <esolangs> [[Dirac]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92090&oldid=92089 * Palaiologos * (+162)
09:35:39 <esolangs> [[Dirac]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92091&oldid=92090 * Palaiologos * (+1019) a better table of instructions
09:38:09 <esolangs> [[Dirac]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92092&oldid=92091 * Palaiologos * (+542) comparison operations, bitops
09:41:23 <esolangs> [[Dirac]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92093&oldid=92092 * Palaiologos * (+471) lambda, more stackops
09:44:30 <esolangs> [[Dirac]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92094&oldid=92093 * Palaiologos * (+499) variables primer
09:50:27 <esolangs> [[User:Dummiedummie/vector.css]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92095 * Dummiedummie * (+49) Created page with "textarea { color: #fff; background-color: #555; }"
09:52:13 <esolangs> [[User:Dummiedummie/vector.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92096&oldid=92095 * Dummiedummie * (+45)
09:54:24 <esolangs> [[User:Dummiedummie/vector.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92097&oldid=92096 * Dummiedummie * (+61)
09:55:12 <esolangs> [[User:Dummiedummie]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92098 * Dummiedummie * (+32) Created page with "===Languages=== [[Return()zero]]"
10:01:49 <esolangs> [[Return()zero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92099&oldid=92087 * Dummiedummie * (+62)
10:02:53 <esolangs> [[Dirac]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92100&oldid=92094 * Palaiologos * (+904) functional stuff
10:02:53 <esolangs> [[Return()zero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92101&oldid=92099 * Dummiedummie * (+0)
10:03:53 <esolangs> [[Return()zero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92102&oldid=92101 * Dummiedummie * (-1)
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10:11:32 <esolangs> [[User:Dummiedummie/vector.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92103&oldid=92097 * Dummiedummie * (-28)
10:22:49 <esolangs> [[Return()zero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92104&oldid=92102 * Dummiedummie * (+142)
10:24:13 <esolangs> [[Return()zero]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92105&oldid=92104 * Dummiedummie * (+25)
10:27:49 <esolangs> [[Return()zero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92106&oldid=92105 * Dummiedummie * (+18)
10:31:02 <esolangs> [[Return()zero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92107&oldid=92106 * Dummiedummie * (+0)
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10:41:19 <esolangs> [[Return()zero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92108&oldid=92107 * Dummiedummie * (+2) I need to make an interpreter for this so I can catch example code errors more easily...
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10:54:12 <esolangs> [[Return()zero]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92109&oldid=92108 * Dummiedummie * (+70)
11:09:43 <esolangs> [[Return()zero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92110&oldid=92109 * Dummiedummie * (+669)
11:11:50 <esolangs> [[Talk:2 Bits, 1 Byte]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92111 * Peter * (+43) Created page with "==User:Peter== Very interesting language :)"
11:18:03 <esolangs> [[Talk:2 Bits, 1 Byte]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92112&oldid=92111 * Peter * (+401) /* User:Peter */
11:18:28 <esolangs> [[User talk:Peter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92113&oldid=91993 * Peter * (-19) Blanked the page
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11:41:44 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92114&oldid=92079 * Kman * (-12) Updated formatting
11:42:57 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92115&oldid=92114 * Kman * (+14) Tiny edit to align with precedent set by 'find empty cell'
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15:40:51 <esolangs> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92116&oldid=92027 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+317) /* Circles? */ Reply
15:42:39 <esolangs> [[Return()zero]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92117&oldid=92110 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-200) /* Example programs */ Improve formatting (use pre tags instead of code tags)
15:42:57 <esolangs> [[Return()zero]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92118&oldid=92117 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) Lowercase title
16:02:17 <esolangs> [[Talk:Dirac]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92119 * TwilightSparkle * (+198) Created page with "Nice language, especially nice creator! I will insert this to my language-learning queue Xd ~~~~"
16:04:02 <Soni> zzo38: you should look at our userdata tho :p
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17:13:04 <fizzie> "Nocturnal (in Daedric script, [something that's not in Unicode]) is the Daedric Prince whose sphere is the night and darkness. She is also known as the Night Mistress[1] and Lady Luck."
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17:47:33 <int-e> Ah, `abs` is a well-known math function. That's why it highlights differently from app...
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18:08:31 <zzo38> What character set(s) does include Daedric scripts?
18:15:19 <fizzie> Hmm. It does not seem to be part of the ConScript Unicode Registry, either. I don't know if any does. It has a 1:1 mapping to the English alphabet characters A through Z and 0 through 9, so I think mostly in computer use those are just used with a font that has the corresponding runes in the place of those characters.
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18:23:37 <zzo38> I suppose style selection can be another way, although assigning a code page number might be helpful. I have a list of 23-bit code page numbers, although it doesn't have that one.
18:24:25 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/codepage/codepage
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18:46:52 <esolangs> [[Return()zero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92120&oldid=92118 * Dummiedummie * (+200) Undo revision 92117 by [[Special:Contributions/PythonshellDebugwindow|PythonshellDebugwindow]] ([[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow|talk]]) (The program lines can tend to be long, and the code blocks are meant to wrap the lines when the screen is too small.)
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19:18:11 <tromp> int-e: you have a case whnf ... of Abs l -> in your code. but whnf can never result in in Abs, right?
19:19:48 <tromp> only in a Ctx, Var, or App
19:20:21 <tromp> code seems to run fine without that case...
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19:22:29 <int-e> hmm. right, after fixing all the bugs that case became impossible
19:22:39 <tromp> i'm trying to mix our two approaches,by computing unique normal forms up to some size around 15, and then using pure search over larger terms like your program does (but gen2 on smaller size will iterate over precomputed unique normal forms)
19:23:09 <tromp> that should hopefully speed up the search by a lot
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19:23:51 <tromp> the tricky part is comparing two whnfs for equality:)
19:24:25 <int-e> tromp: I'll add the colorized alpha thing to the repo if you don't mind (it's actually usable without editing the source code for once)
19:25:30 <tromp> i made some changes to my copy of that Colored.hs (got colored reduction)
19:25:55 <tromp> adding a usage and allowing choice of S1-S5 and K1-K4 on command line
19:26:33 <int-e> Yeah I also added the capability to pick those (and arbitrary terms)
19:27:36 <int-e> (well, not arbitrary... just applications of alpha; this can be improved)
19:28:12 <int-e> I found that tracing needed subterms is ridiculously subtle.
19:28:33 <tromp> i just computed the smallest diverging alpha term
19:28:35 <int-e> despite working on the complete reduction to normal form
19:29:20 <int-e> yeah, don't feed that to the HTML thing :P
19:29:42 <tromp> i ordered the 5 Ss by output size:)
19:30:02 <tromp> the one you showed before is not the worst
19:32:10 <int-e> Hmm, still no salpynx (I guess it's still too early). https://paste.debian.net/1227233/ ...poor person's laziness (\_ -> ...) makes I work in Python.
19:39:23 <int-e> (I also got rid of two CSS classes by using <s> and <u> in addition to <b>, so HTML files are a tad smaller)
19:41:05 <int-e> Mysteries of HTML: <a> is somehow different from an ordinary span when it comes to children; the x ~ y selector doesn't seem to work inside <a>...
19:43:21 <int-e> Hmm. But I can't reproduce that in a toy example?
19:43:33 <int-e> Maybe I messed up something else... always a possibility.
19:51:15 <int-e> Ah, no, I wasn't imagining things. https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/a.html reproduces the issue for me.
19:52:16 <int-e> Ah, because <a> can't be nested.
19:53:08 <int-e> b_jonas: ^^ <a> is too special
19:55:29 <int-e> (NEW and SHINY: claim now supported by a technical justification!!!!1)
19:56:13 <int-e> b_jonas: it matters because I'm encoding a term structure in spans. I could still use <a> for the leafs though, I guess.
19:59:08 <b_jonas> I didn't mean to actually recommend that hack
19:59:49 <b_jonas> also most HTTP clients these days accept compressed data, so you can get your webserver to send compressed images of your HTML file, so the length of your tag and class names should barely matter
19:59:53 <int-e> b_jonas: well you did mention it on #esoteric, I mean #esolangs... what did you expect to happen? :-P
20:01:36 <int-e> b_jonas: anyway, it's unlikely to find its way into production... if you've clicked on any of my recent links like https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/alpha-w-min.html
20:02:23 <int-e> I stayed away from <q> because it's not obvious what that does if expressed as CSS... most likely some ::before and ::after stuff to insert quotes?
20:03:03 <int-e> It's also kind of funny how things look without CSS... but perfectly fine for the esoteric context./
20:03:25 <esolangs> [[Byte-based Instruction Jumping]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92121&oldid=91983 * Peter * (+0)
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20:03:55 <b_jonas> int-e: if a tag works by just CSS (and I don't know how much they do) then you can find out what CSS it is because there's a sat of example CSS files explaining that somewhere on W3C (not normative as in browsers needn't format H1 exactly the same as specified there, but explanatory); also I think there's a set of such CSS available installed with your modern browser
20:04:59 <b_jonas> int-e: \https://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/sample.html#q22.0
20:05:53 <int-e> that doesn't have q :-P
20:05:56 <b_jonas> int-e: also it's complicated because what's inserted is language-dependent and I'm not sure how that works
20:06:11 <b_jonas> the quotation marks for Q are language-dependent that is
20:06:53 <int-e> while the ones I used, namely b, s, u, are all there.
20:07:24 <riv> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2IAyXc0LuE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrDbD90HXyo
20:10:04 <int-e> b_jonas: tbh this (encoding term structure in a bare bones HTML without text context) may be the only acceptable use for this kind of trickery... abusing text markup like this is a bit insane :)
20:10:30 <int-e> text context -> text contents
20:10:58 <int-e> and then there's the general joy of learning more about technology by abusing it
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20:16:04 <esolangs> [[Return()zero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92122&oldid=92120 * Dummiedummie * (+2)
20:21:15 <esolangs> [[Return()zero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92123&oldid=92122 * Dummiedummie * (+142)
20:24:48 <tromp> int-e: wow; your html even shows the whole subterm when you hover over the leading `. impressed!
20:26:28 <esolangs> [[Return()zero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92124&oldid=92123 * Dummiedummie * (+0)
20:32:15 <esolangs> [[Return()zero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92125&oldid=92124 * Dummiedummie * (+167)
20:32:58 <esolangs> [[Return()zero]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92126&oldid=92125 * Dummiedummie * (-4)
20:33:15 <esolangs> [[Return()zero]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92127&oldid=92126 * Dummiedummie * (-2)
20:34:59 <esolangs> [[Return()zero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92128&oldid=92127 * Dummiedummie * (+21)
20:44:45 <int-e> . o O ( AAP = Acceptable Abuse Policy )
20:58:16 <int-e> tromp: picking out subterms is *hard* (also true for matching parentheses, though I've got a bit more practice with that)
21:00:10 <int-e> this way, I can actually pick out redexes and follow reduction steps for the smaller combinators.
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22:00:03 <riv> in minecraft the fluids are measured in K mB (Kilo millibuckets)
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