←2022-02-01 2022-02-02 2022-02-03→ ↑2022 ↑all
00:20:35 <b_jonas> fungot, what's the difference between a bucket and a pail?
00:20:36 <fungot> b_jonas: this is a man to treasure. the thief in the throes of an unraveling alibi. " the massacre of syrs gnelph was not as written a message you got, my brother, and we just keep the safe or tub handy or a cunning prankster than a common sort.
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00:29:30 <esolangs> [[Cmpilr]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92751 * Grom * (+2136) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Cmpilr |paradigms=not specified |author=[[User:Grom]] |year=[[:Category:2022|2022]] |class=:Category:Optionally Turing_complete|Optionally Turing co..."
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02:18:05 <esolangs> [[ASCIIORb]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92752 * Threesodas * (+4372) Created page with "[[Category:2022]][[Category:Unimplemented]][[Category:Languages]][[Category:Stack-based]] '''ASCIIORb''' is a [[stack]]-based language that follows the "syntax" of the '''@ORb..."
02:18:36 <esolangs> [[User:Threesodas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92753&oldid=92611 * Threesodas * (-42)
02:19:40 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92754&oldid=92745 * Threesodas * (+15) Add ASCIIORb
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03:04:21 <que11en> m0ther: i have deactivated the self-destruction protocol
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04:52:09 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92755&oldid=92729 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Interpreter Status */
04:52:59 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92756&oldid=92755 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1329) /* Considerations for Future Changes */
04:53:09 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92757&oldid=92756 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Considerations for Future Changes */
04:53:29 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92758&oldid=92757 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* External Links */
04:56:48 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92759&oldid=92758 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* External Links */
04:58:24 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92760&oldid=92759 * PixelatedStarfish * (-157) /* Interpreter Status */
05:01:29 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92761&oldid=92760 * PixelatedStarfish * (+367) /* Instruction Set */
05:03:15 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92762&oldid=92761 * PixelatedStarfish * (+17) /* Instruction Set */
05:04:36 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92763&oldid=92762 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Grammar in EBNF */
05:06:59 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92764&oldid=92763 * PixelatedStarfish * (+74) /* Error Codes */
05:07:51 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92765&oldid=92764 * PixelatedStarfish * (-13) /* Error Codes */
05:08:33 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92766&oldid=92765 * PixelatedStarfish * (+13) /* Error Codes */
05:09:33 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92767&oldid=92766 * PixelatedStarfish * (+19) /* False Machine */
05:09:50 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92768&oldid=92767 * PixelatedStarfish * (+10) /* False Machine */
05:10:47 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92769&oldid=92768 * PixelatedStarfish * (+46) /* Grammar in EBNF */
05:11:00 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92770&oldid=92769 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Grammar in EBNF */
05:11:45 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92771&oldid=92770 * PixelatedStarfish * (+177) /* Grammar in EBNF */
05:12:15 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92772&oldid=92582 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* MacroBeep */
05:13:15 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92773&oldid=92771 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0)
05:14:34 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92774&oldid=92773 * PixelatedStarfish * (-100) /* Considerations for Future Changes */
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05:24:12 <oerjan> <riv> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_formatting_and_storage_bugs#Year_2022 <-- a bit depressing, that page
05:25:23 <int-e> *sigh* today: no hot water
05:26:08 <int-e> Oh well. I hope they just forgot to turn off the central boiler and didn't actually break anything.
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05:53:57 <oerjan> splitty today
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06:43:47 <oerjan> now to check if zeetha reacts as i expect
06:44:18 <oerjan> yep :P
06:48:27 <oerjan> i am slightly annoyed at an inconsistency i noticed.
06:48:49 <oerjan> the brekkah stone is supposedly _older_ than luheia - lost before she was born.
06:49:14 <oerjan> but also, luheia supposedly _led_ them through the mirror to skifander.
06:49:22 <oerjan> iirc
06:49:37 <oerjan> which means the stone _shouldn't_ be from there.
06:52:08 <oerjan> also, they totally should get the stone packed away before lady before the enemy shows up.
06:52:28 <oerjan> *-lady (steelgarter)
06:52:39 <oerjan> *-before
06:56:15 <oerjan> also, keep it away from dupree, but they don't know that.
06:59:56 <int-e> oerjan: hmm *reading* the Brek'kah stone is one of a pair; what if that pair is linked regardless of where they are? :P
07:01:20 <oerjan> ah yes that might be it
07:02:27 <int-e> It's enough for a writer to wiggle out of it, I think. :)
07:02:44 <oerjan> i'll grant it
07:06:49 <int-e> oh, warm water... yay for minor miracles
07:24:30 <tromp> any guesses on simplest addition to {K,W} to make a basis for CL?
07:40:59 <Palaiologos[m]> B, C?
07:42:16 <tromp> that works, but is not the simplest
07:42:48 <tromp> in terms of size of the basis combinators
07:43:05 <Palaiologos[m]> how is the size defined?
07:43:53 <riv> binary lambda calculus
07:43:58 <tromp> Sizes in binary lambda calculus are defined by size(lambda M)=2+size(M), size(M N)=2+size(M)+size(N), and size(V)=1+i for a variable V bound by the i-th enclosing lambda.
07:44:25 <tromp> ( from https://oeis.org/A333479 )
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07:57:47 <Palaiologos[m]> i see.
07:57:56 <Palaiologos[m]> i don't have the resources to check my ideas at the moment
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08:03:22 <tromp> {K,W,S} works too, but is not a minimal size addition either
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08:08:16 <Palaiologos[m]> i've heard about Wolfram willing to pay someone for proving that just the S combinator is TC
08:08:26 <Palaiologos[m]> do you think such a proof is possible?
08:14:50 <tromp> no, i don't think so.
08:18:56 <oerjan> int-e: oh hm https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20140509
08:19:19 <oerjan> it doesn't say explicitly it was luheia who did it
08:19:53 <oerjan> (took me a while to binge to the right place :) )
08:22:23 <oerjan> Palaiologos[m]: it's probably "universal" rather than TC, which means the definition is vague and up for discussion
08:23:44 <oerjan> (specifically, it's been proved that normalizability of S-expressions is decidable, so you would need to consider non-halting computations at the very least)
08:24:10 <oerjan> (someone linked a nice table in this channel back when it was discussed)
08:24:52 <int-e> Wolfram knows this though, and explicitly asks about some TC structure in the nonterminating computations
08:25:10 <int-e> But that makes things very murky.
08:25:23 <riv> S-expressions being (SS)S(SS)(SS(S)S) type things
08:25:29 <int-e> In particular it's so ill-defined that you can't hope to *disprove* that this is TC.
08:25:49 <riv> as opposed to s-expressions which are like ((S S) S (S S) (S S (S) S))
08:25:58 <int-e> Because there'll always be ways to shift the goalpost further away.
08:26:56 <int-e> (the table was actually from one of Wolfram's posts about this)
08:27:31 <oerjan> riv: i couldn't resist punning, as usual
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09:39:56 <salpynx> tromp: is it one of the Q bird combinators? A guess, picking something that is Bish and Cish.
09:46:41 <salpynx> was going to say S, but you covered that above. My guess: λabc.a(cb) (Q1 / apparently 'Quixotic'), maybe Q, λabc.b(ac), ('Queer')?
09:47:06 <Palaiologos[m]> queer combinator
09:51:09 <esolangs> [[SRlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92775&oldid=88355 * Soyuzguy123! * (+1488) dont chuck this off as a broken page, its still under construction dw
09:52:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Soyuzguy123! * uploaded "[[File:SRlang logo-removebg-preview.png]]": Logo for a language
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09:54:37 <esolangs> [[SRlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92777&oldid=92775 * Soyuzguy123! * (+35)
09:56:04 <esolangs> [[SRlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92778&oldid=92777 * Soyuzguy123! * (+2)
10:04:56 <esolangs> [[Grammar]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92779 * Citrons * (+6030) apioform
10:15:56 <tromp> Queer it is!
10:16:26 <tromp> {K,W,Q} is a basis
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11:25:01 <esolangs> [[Grammar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92780&oldid=92779 * Citrons * (+1) typo
11:34:58 <esolangs> [[Grammar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92781&oldid=92780 * Citrons * (+58) add categories
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12:35:00 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92782&oldid=92746 * Laclale * (+170) /* Commands */
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12:38:35 <wib_jonas> we need a new password
12:42:28 <wib_jonas> int-e: I'm still sticking to my opinion that it's not a problem that we're looking only among non-terminating behavior, because old personal computers all have a power supply and RAM that can't be stopped programmatically, so all the programs on it never halt, but nobody would think that that's an obstacle to them doing universal computations. that
12:42:28 <wib_jonas> their RAM and backing storage is small can be an obstacle, but that won't be a problem with a combinator basis.
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12:43:46 <Palaiologos[m]> wib_jonas: don't old computers have a BIOS call for restarting the machine from scratch including the POST, etc..., meaning that they do theoretically halt for a short while?
12:44:14 <Palaiologos[m]> is halting even considered a subset of restarting, hm
12:47:05 <wib_jonas> Palaiologos[m]: there's a reboot routine which eg. resets the video card settigns, stops the sound from the sound chip, etc. it's useful in practice because (1) it reinitializes hardware from most of the broken states that an incorrect program could put them into, and (2) it works even after thrashing memory, because it only relies on the data in
12:47:05 <wib_jonas> the ROM. but none of that behavior is special to the BIOS, a normal program (perhaps customized for the specific hardaware) could do just the same. and in particular, it won't affect the power supply or RAM or CPU in any special way.
12:48:00 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is decided with a non-terminating computation.
12:48:02 <wib_jonas> You can say that the display on the monitor or the sound from the speaker is a nice observable output, more so than whatever is written to the memory or extension port, so it's a good alternative to halting.
12:48:05 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is decided with a non-terminating computation.
12:48:42 <wib_jonas> That shows why you can use the monitor, sound, or many other optional external hardware like disks to get a result from a program, without caring about whether the program halts.
12:49:20 <wib_jonas> You can say that the combinator calculus with just S doesn't have such nice external signs, so you need a much less clear definition of what you want to observe (rather than halting).
12:49:30 <Palaiologos[m]> isn't halting just an arbitrary state though? we could define the program in the state after executing `cli / hlt` as halted without the power going out.
12:50:12 <wib_jonas> You can't just say that you can observe whatever is apparent to an untrained user, i.e. without probing the bus with a signal generator, because combinator calculus doesn't have that distinction.
12:52:41 <wib_jonas> Palaiologos: the halt thing applies to a modern CPU like 8086, and I'm not even sure you can really observe it externally until even later CPUs add power saving features. You could try to see when the CPU does it, but it's a worse method of output than looking at the monitor or speaker or floppy drive.
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14:39:21 <esolangs> [[SRlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92783&oldid=92778 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-55) Remove nonexistent category and incorrect category (language isn't total)
14:40:20 <riv> hello :)
14:40:39 <oerjan> hi
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15:07:39 <Corbin> Palaiologos[m]: One challenge in Wolfram's framing is that it's already proven that K and I aren't derivable from S. I don't think B, C, or any other linear combinator is derivable, although I'm open to evidence. Wolfram's really askiing for a homomorphism from trees of S combinators to any TC language s.t. reductions of S terms in the original tree correspond to reductions in the TC language.
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15:09:20 <wib_jonas> Corbin: from a subset of the trees at least, yes.
15:09:30 <riv> can you make an infinite loop with S alone?
15:10:13 <wib_jonas> nah, never mind, I'm not sure that homomorphism thing is a good description. it doesn't bring you closer to what Turing-complete means
15:11:22 <Corbin> Sure; we don't usually talk about TC languages in terms of homomorphisms. I think we should, though, if for no other reason than that these homomorphisms are typically compilers.
15:14:00 <wib_jonas> Corbin: in that case I don't understand what kind of homomorphism you want
15:15:18 <Corbin> wib_jonas: It should preserve the reduction structure; if it's legal to reduce one tree of S to another tree, then similar reasoning should allow us to reduce one TC program to another. (Or else trees of S clearly aren't TC, because not all TC reductions show up inside it!)
15:18:17 <riv> Sxyz = (xz)(yz) so SSyS = SSyS I guess this is an infinite loop
15:18:42 <riv> for any y
15:18:50 <riv> can you make one that grows each time?
15:24:52 <tromp> no, SSyS = SS(yS) which is quite different
15:25:12 <riv> oh
15:25:18 <riv> thanks
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16:01:30 <oerjan> riv: istr that the decidable normalization article said reductions always halt at the top level, which would mean it's only the deeply nested subterms that can continue growing.
16:01:46 <riv> I see
16:02:50 <oerjan> mind you i only browsed a bit of it
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16:08:38 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92784&oldid=92782 * Laclale * (+43) /* Commands */
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16:21:09 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92785&oldid=92784 * Laclale * (+230) /* Sigil and Space */
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17:10:45 <int-e> oerjan: you remember correctly; Waldmann calls it top-stabilization
17:12:03 <int-e> b_jonas: it's okay to look at non-termination. but the less natural your criterion, the more you're opening up yourself to questions how much of the TC-ness you've derived can be attributed to S and how much to the criterion you're using
17:13:14 <int-e> I have the same issue with the rule 110 thing. Rule 110 + infinite repeating background is TC, but how much "control flow" or maybe "adjoined finite automaton" is encoded in that pattern?
17:14:54 <int-e> (AIUI the halting criterion is relatively sane in that case since it's emulating some cyclic tag thing.)
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17:39:27 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92786&oldid=92785 * Laclale * (+275)
17:41:52 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92787&oldid=92786 * Laclale * (-5)
17:43:24 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92788&oldid=92787 * Laclale * (-23)
17:45:15 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92789&oldid=92772 * PixelatedStarfish * (+114) /* MacroBeep */
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17:55:53 <esolangs> [[Category:Markup Languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92792&oldid=43275 * Laclale * (+23)
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18:02:00 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92793&oldid=92774 * PixelatedStarfish * (+272) /* External Links */
18:02:10 <esolangs> [[MacroBeep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92794&oldid=92793 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* =Repls for Online Use */
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18:50:33 <Palaiologos[m]> <Corbin> "Palaiologos: One challenge in..." <- i see!
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19:45:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * WaifuShork * New user account
19:48:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92799&oldid=92716 * WaifuShork * (+261) /* Introductions */
19:50:10 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92800&oldid=92799 * WaifuShork * (+6) /* Introductions */
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19:57:06 <Bertrahm> I've been playing with this concept of a joke (?) or theoretical lang that could create a turing completeness proof for any language but I dont know if thats already around
19:57:54 <Corbin> Interesting. How would you specify the object languages?
19:58:44 <Bertrahm> i think the meaning of object languages got lost in translation for me. do you mean the language to generate for?
20:00:40 <Bertrahm> I've been thinking about it, if it should be more "realistic" and get fed a set of rules of the language and its keywords or if I should make it purely theoretical where it can generate a turing proof by just the name of the language
20:01:19 <Corbin> Yeah. Like, I understand how you would represent the typical programming language. But what about something like a Wang tileset?
20:02:39 <Bertrahm> what do you mean by Wang tileset? All I can think of is the wang tile thing by hao wang
20:05:20 <Corbin> Yeah, that's what I'm thinking of.
20:06:58 <Bertrahm> how do you calculate with the wang tiles? Or am I just lacking in knowledge again '=D
20:07:26 <Palaiologos[m]> <Bertrahm> "I've been playing with this..." <- so something like what cyclic tag systems, brainfuck, minsky machines, etc...?
20:07:38 <Palaiologos[m]> these all are being used for turing completeness proofs on the way of translation or simulation.
20:07:53 <Corbin> https://grahamshawcross.com/2012/10/12/wang-tiles-and-turing-machines/ seems like a decent introduction to writing programs with Wang tiling.
20:08:03 <Bertrahm> thanks
20:08:10 <Palaiologos[m]> i don't think it gets any simpler than minsky machines or cyclic tag.
20:08:32 <Corbin> Palaiologos[m]: I think Bertrahm is thinking about the metatheory for performing Turing-completeness proofs; something like a formal-methods framework or a theorem-prover.
20:08:39 <Palaiologos[m]> maybe fractran too?
20:08:49 <Palaiologos[m]> Corbin: oh, i see.
20:09:49 <Bertrahm> Some of this is going over my head since english isnt my native language. What I mean is that it would, given a languages name (or a set of rules and instructions for the language) generate a turing-completeness proof program for that language
20:11:35 <Corbin> Aha. That makes some sense. (Your English is very good, by the way!)
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20:12:01 <Bertrahm> thanks :)
20:14:37 <Bertrahm> I think I'll write a wiki page for it laying out what Ideas I have and then share it. Im just struggling to think of a name xD
20:29:12 <salpynx> riv: Re. Loops in S: Section 3, Lemma 3.3, with proof: There are no reduction cycles in Σ [Σ = CL(S)] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0304397579900045
20:31:52 <riv> woah!! that's cool!
20:32:06 <riv> so any loop must explode
20:32:16 <riv> why isn't this stuff more widely known!
20:39:50 <esolangs> [[Turing Completer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92801 * Bertrahm * (+1306) Created page with "{{WIP}} '''Turing Completer''' is a theoretical language capable of generating a [[Turing Completeness]] Proof for any language. There are 2 variations for this language, one..."
20:41:17 <Bertrahm> wrote everything out that I had in mind. I think that there could be more to it but I can't think of anything...
20:45:01 <esolangs> [[Turing Completer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92802&oldid=92801 * Bertrahm * (+322)
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21:27:39 <esolangs> [[MathSeq]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92803 * Threesodas * (+4348) Created page with "{{lowercase}} [[Category:Unimplemented]] [[Category:Languages]] '''mathSeq''' ('''math Seq'''uences) is an esoteric programming language created by User:Threesodas|Threesoda..."
21:27:56 <esolangs> [[MathSeq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92804&oldid=92803 * Threesodas * (+3) oosp typo
21:30:44 <esolangs> [[MathSeq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92805&oldid=92804 * Bertrahm * (+6) /* Syntax */
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22:28:50 <esolangs> [[ScrubCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92806&oldid=47256 * MeowflashDaProgrammer * (+70)
22:29:19 <esolangs> [[User:MeowflashDaProgrammer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92807&oldid=47247 * MeowflashDaProgrammer * (-1349) Replaced content with "Please delete this user. I don't want to use the Esolangs wiki anymore."
22:37:12 <esolangs> [[User:Threesodas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92808&oldid=92753 * Threesodas * (+16)
22:50:13 <esolangs> [[MathSeq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92809&oldid=92805 * Threesodas * (+70)
22:56:57 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92810&oldid=92788 * Laclale * (+55) /* Commands */
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23:09:08 <esolangs> [[January 25, 4092]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92811 * Threesodas * (+243) Created page with "[[Category:Joke_languages]] '''January 25, 5092''' is a joke esoteric language that can only be compiled on the specific date ''January 25, 4092''.<br> This is the only valid..."
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23:09:31 <esolangs> [[January 25, 4092]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92812&oldid=92811 * Threesodas * (+0) Change 5 to 4
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