←2022-02-03 2022-02-04 2022-02-05→ ↑2022 ↑all
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01:34:22 <b_jonas> ok, I think I was wrong here
01:35:55 <b_jonas> You have one of these evaluation rules like combinator calculus with S or Xigxag or those one-dimensional cellular automata, and you apply it repeatedly, and the loop grows the state unbounded in most cases.
01:36:08 <b_jonas> You want to know whether the repeated transformation is Turing-complete.
01:36:52 <b_jonas> The problem is indeed what kind of checks you allow to get the information out from the state, call it halting condition if you wish,
01:37:32 <b_jonas> because it's either too easy to inject Turing-completeness into even a trivial transformation, or restrict the checks too much, and I don't know what the right middle ground is
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01:39:32 <b_jonas> Consider for example a trivial transformation that just appends a zero at the end of the string in each step. For the halting condition, you read the program at the beginning of the state and then run it for as many steps as there are zeroes. This is a linear time language, surely linear time is not powerful enough to be Turing-complete, right? But you do get turing-completeness if you apply it to each
01:39:38 <b_jonas> state in this silly way.
01:51:48 <Corbin> tromp: Interesting lemma. It seems like B and C provide some sort of essential service; just like how K deletes and how S and W can duplicate, B and C provide composition, and so does Q.
01:53:01 <Corbin> What makes S so impressive, then, is that S also provides composition, allowing SK to be complete.
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04:02:44 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92859&oldid=92834 * Laclale * (+828) /* Commands */
04:04:23 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92860&oldid=92859 * Laclale * (-96) /* Commands */
04:04:52 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92861&oldid=92860 * Laclale * (-8) /* Examples */
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05:04:40 <u0_a549> so i just discovered about esolangs today, and i
05:04:53 <u0_a549> want to build my own
05:04:56 <u0_a549> esolangs
05:05:05 <u0_a549> could anybody help me
05:06:14 <Corbin> Have you made a programming language before?
05:06:21 <u0_a549> no
05:06:31 <u0_a549> which is why i am asking for help
05:07:09 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AJJLyman * New user account
05:08:06 <Corbin> What kinds of ideas do you want to express with your language?
05:09:02 <u0_a549> simplicity and low level programming
05:10:22 <Corbin> How do you feel about assembly or machine-level instructions?
05:10:28 <u0_a549> my goal was to create a low level language for the creation of an exokernel of my own and and an os with it
05:11:08 <u0_a549> assembly is scary for me
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05:12:04 <u0_a549> i know it is too ambitious
05:12:04 <Corbin> Maybe a design goal could be to find a syntax that doesn't scare you, but that still can express unsafe machine instructions.
05:12:23 <u0_a549> hmm, ok
05:13:01 <Corbin> It's not ambitious to want to customize one's own computer. The ambition is only in wanting other people to run certain software.
05:13:12 <u0_a549> and i was wondering are there better ways for memory managagement than the way c and rust handles it
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05:16:11 <u0_a549> are there any new and experimental methods that have been discovered by esolangers like you in memory management
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05:20:05 <Corbin> The easy way is to just not have memory.
05:46:37 <int-e> ah, finally, a hot shower in the morning
05:54:24 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92862&oldid=92861 * Laclale * (+103) /* Commands */
05:58:39 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92863&oldid=92862 * Laclale * (+6) /* XKCD fish */
06:20:25 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92864&oldid=92863 * Laclale * (+330) /* Commands */
06:45:58 <zzo38> I should think better way of making a web browser that all protocols and file formats are extensions; only the data: and file: schemes, and some uses of the about: scheme, are built-in. The model of HTTP is built-in, but the protocol isn't. All extensions can be written in C, and can be dynamic linking.
06:52:31 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92865&oldid=92846 * Laclale * (+1)
07:07:59 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92866&oldid=92864 * Laclale * (+73) /* Commands */
07:11:25 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92867&oldid=92866 * Laclale * (+150) /* Syntax */
08:02:07 <citrons> esolang
08:03:30 <zzo38> Can you be more specific?
08:04:02 <citrons> let me think
08:04:24 <citrons> FALSE
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08:29:09 <tromp> Corbin: indeed.and alpha = \x\y\z.x z (y (\_.z) provides all of deletion, duplication, and composition.
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08:31:03 <tromp> and is provably minimal
08:32:09 <tromp> btwm turns out my theorem was alrd proven in 1987 by Remi Legrand: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-symbolic-logic/article/abs/basis-result-in-combinatory-logic/306DF60857C5A842C9793FBBAA4A2970
08:39:53 <oerjan> not surprising
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10:47:21 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92868&oldid=92867 * Laclale * (-57) /* XKCD fish */
10:54:35 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92869&oldid=92868 * Laclale * (-10) /* XKCD fish */
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10:57:18 <riv> https://www.homestuck.com/story/294 huh i dont remember when he got arms
10:57:45 <riv> btw I took my vechicle to the quantum mechanic, about the issue where the GPS and speedometer don't both work at the same time. but they were uncertain if they could fix it
11:00:45 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92870&oldid=92869 * Laclale * (+32) /* XKCD fish */
11:13:48 <riv> https://www.homestuck.com/story/321 ah this captchalogue is based on hashing
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13:00:35 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92871&oldid=92747 * Laclale * (+25) /* Game */
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13:08:15 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92872&oldid=92870 * Laclale * (+22) /* Implementations */
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14:57:35 <riv> https://rtpg.co/2022/01/10/adversarial-wordle-limiting-conjecture.html
15:21:21 <riv> I have a question about design of dice
15:21:31 <riv> for equal probability we use platonic solids(?)
15:21:37 <riv> but that is related to having a flat table
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15:21:52 <riv> what if we can build an arbitrary shape of table, does it allow new dice?
15:32:05 <riv> https://trick-dice.com/ clever, gallium loadded dice. it's fair, you heat it up and let it cool, and now it's biased
15:32:44 <fizzie> Even for a flat table, there's the (boring) "long, thin rod with N flat sides" shape, which allows any N >= 2.
15:33:45 <fizzie> Also, I think there's more fair dice than just the platonic solids. Like the disdyakis triacontahedron from https://www.tor.com/2016/04/29/the-dice-lab-creates-a-one-hundred-and-twenty-sided-die/
15:33:46 <riv> ah that is a nice idea :)
15:35:17 <riv> oh Henry Segerman is involved
15:35:20 <riv> I like his youtube channel
15:35:30 <fizzie> « “It’s not one of the most beautiful polyhedra,” he told me. “It’s just a little lumpy. It doesn’t have personality.” » Wow, a polyhedral snob.
15:36:22 <riv> not to be confused with snub
15:38:37 <riv> it is a fun combinatorial problem to design which number goes on which side
15:39:57 <riv> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_solid so do all of thes woerk
15:40:32 <riv> I suppose not, some have multiple different faces
15:41:50 <riv> although they could be 'reroll' sides..
15:42:19 <riv> https://mathworld.wolfram.com/Isohedron.html
15:42:24 <riv> I think this is all fair dice
15:42:45 <riv> The isohedra make fair dice, and there are 30 of them
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15:45:24 <fizzie> Well, 30 kinds. Some like https://mathworld.wolfram.com/Dipyramid.html are apparently a family.
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17:50:16 <esolangs> [[Syncin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92873 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+1949) Created page with "{{lowercase}} '''syncin''' is a joke esoteric programming language. Every single instruction must be written in reverse order. It has support for multiple lines.<br> == Instr..."
17:51:33 <esolangs> [[Syncin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92874&oldid=92873 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+54) Forgot to add creator (me)
17:55:34 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92875&oldid=92489 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+155)
17:57:24 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92876&oldid=92005 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+74)
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18:05:37 <riv> but my question was if you could consider something like a corrigated surface
18:05:41 <riv> would that enable new types of dice
18:07:15 <int-e> I'd start by worrying about adding more dependencies on how the die is cast, then discard the question :P
18:07:20 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92877&oldid=92490 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+75)
18:07:55 <riv> 3d printing
18:08:35 <int-e> I mean... how you cast a die does affect the odds already, but with a non-flat surface it's not even horizontally translation invariant anymore.
18:17:15 <esolangs> [[Syncin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92878&oldid=92874 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+46) adding other necessary stuff
18:27:33 <riv> the idea is it will always fall into specific grooves
18:31:25 <int-e> Anyway, the reason dice are fair (if you cast them properly... probably involving a cup on a plate and a round of thorough shakes by everybody involved) comes down to symmetry. If you break that symmetry the problem becomes much harder... you need to worry about materials (beyond the point that it's uniform), and probably velocities and a ton of other things.
18:31:57 <int-e> And that's before we even get to the extra oddities from the non-planar surface.
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18:39:04 <int-e> Playing Superliminal made me realize how brilliant Portal was... it didn't just have a story, it had adversity. Superliminal lacks that, and it makes it kind of bland. The puzzles are still cute though (not hard, though actually I was stumped for a while in two of them, so maybe not totally easy either).
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18:48:33 <esolangs> [[User:BowlingPizzaBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92879&oldid=92858 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+23)
18:48:48 <zzo38> What is the classification of fair dice? Although the ten sided dice is not Platonic solid, I had been told (on the IRC, I think) that it is a fair dice.
18:58:28 <riv> im not worried about the probability too much
18:58:36 <riv> I think the probability will be extrremely close to even
18:59:04 <riv> https://www.exploratorium.edu/sites/default/files/snacks/SquareWheels_DSC_6112_P960.jpg
18:59:08 <riv> i was thinking along these lines
19:00:12 <zzo38> Maybe it is close, but I would want to know what is the classification of fair dice mathematically
19:15:16 <riv> in my opinion a dice is fair if it has equal probability for every symbol that can be rolled by it
19:15:47 <riv> I guess that is not really mathematica
19:15:48 <riv> l
19:16:00 <riv> its more just "roll it a lot of times and count, and if the counts are very close it is fair"
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19:35:21 <ais523> zzo38: in practice, most fair dice are the dual of an Archimedean solid (because an Archimidean solid is symmetrical in the sense that you can rotate/reflect any vertex onto any other, its dual is symmetrical in the sense that you can rotate/reflect any face onto any other, meaning that it must necessarily be fair as a dice)
19:35:51 <ais523> the usual d10 is the dual of a pentagonal antiprism (an Archimidean solid), thus is symmetrical with respect to its 10 sides and thus equally likely to land on any of htem
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19:37:12 <ais523> oh, apparently prisms and antiprisms (and Platonic solids) aren't "officially" Archimidean, but they have the same property (of all vertexes being identical)
19:37:26 <ais523> <Wikipedia> Prisms and antiprisms, whose symmetry groups are the dihedral groups, are generally not considered to be Archimedean solids, even though their faces are regular polygons and their symmetry groups act transitively on their vertices.
19:37:31 <ais523> what a weird special case
19:39:11 <esolangs> [[Syncin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92880&oldid=92878 * BowlingPizzaBall * (+32)
19:42:10 <ais523> one problem with using duals of Archimidean solids for dice is that they tend to have the same number of faces as each other
19:42:42 <ais523> 12, 24, 48, 30, 60, or 120
19:44:39 <ais523> so not many of them are actually useful (the main purpose is for if you want a d24 or d30)
19:47:13 <ais523> ah, I found the name for them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_solid (there's a list of the ones that don't belong to infinite families there – the infinite families are bipyramids and trapezohedra, and the d10 is a pentagonal trapezohedron)
19:47:27 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92881&oldid=92836 * Hakerh400 * (+15) +[[CSP Spec]]
19:47:31 <esolangs> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=92882&oldid=92393 * Hakerh400 * (+15) +[[CSP Spec]]
19:48:01 <riv> yes
19:48:15 <esolangs> [[CSP Spec]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=92883 * Hakerh400 * (+6934) +[[CSP Spec]]
19:48:15 <riv> it is a little ugly but you can e.g. make a 9 sided dice from a 10 sided dice
19:48:22 <riv> just having one face be a re-reroll indicator
19:48:54 <riv> and you can combine that with having each number appear twice, or 3x
19:49:22 <riv> when you roll a dice it lands with the bottom face flat
19:49:31 <riv> but there must be a top face opposite this, for you to read the value off
19:49:49 <riv> are any shapes excluded as dice, because they actually have a vertex opposite each face?
19:52:01 <int-e> riv: D4 are a thing though
19:53:49 <ais523> d4 are normally tetrahedra, as opposed to octahedra with duplicated numbers
19:54:33 <ais523> the octahedron is much easier to roll fairly, though, tetrahedra don't roll very well (the main advantage of a tetrahedron is that it looks so different from an octahedron that you're unlikely to pick the wrong die by mistake)
19:54:37 <int-e> the point was that they have labeled corners, sort of.
19:55:00 <ais523> in practice we normally rolled d4s via bouncing them off a table, with a lot of spin (the d4s we had available tended to bounce quite well on tables)
19:55:25 <ais523> but yes, the vertices are labeled via placing the same label on the corner of each face incident to the vertex
19:55:29 <int-e> There are two obvious ways to make a D10, one of which would have an edge on top when you roll it.
19:55:55 <int-e> (well, once it lands)
19:56:09 <ais523> this is a good reason for using a trapezohedron rather than a bipyramid
19:56:47 <ais523> (the other good reason is that they look more distinct from octahedra – a pentagonal bipyramid looks quite similar to an octahedron, which is a tetragonal bipyramid)
20:01:34 <riv> you can have nested dice
20:01:41 <riv> glass outer dice with another thing inside it
20:02:04 <riv> hm how does the tetrahedral dice work?
20:02:18 <riv> perhaps you need a table with pointed depressions in it
20:02:30 <riv> and then it should always fall into one of these grooves and show a face upwards
20:13:54 <int-e> typically like this, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-sided_die
20:14:50 <int-e> (oh, right, they label the bottom face, not the corners. that's less cramped...)
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20:20:52 <fizzie> A d4, of course, is the one you step on.
20:24:50 <FireFly> ah yes, RPG caltrops
20:30:51 <riv> ouch!
20:36:10 <b_jonas> I don't have much comment about the dice, except that apart from the regular solids and Catalan solids and dual prisms and dual antiprisms, there's one more infinite class of fair dice. these are the ones that have just two vertexes with a loop of two-edged faces around them. you can't make them from flat faces, but you can curve the faces of the dice and still have it be symmetric, so that can work.
20:49:01 <shachaf> `? member
20:49:05 <HackEso> I'm sorry, #esoteric has regulars, not members. Who told you about members? There are definitely no members here, and you wouldn't be allowed to know about them, anyway.
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20:56:39 <riv> but there may also be random shapes which happen to be fair?
20:57:37 <b_jonas> riv: not really. the problem is that the probabilities depend on how you throw the dice, like how fast.
20:58:05 <riv> hmmm
20:58:17 <riv> so you could make a dice which has different probabilities depending on the throw speed
20:58:21 <riv> that is a very interesting concept
20:58:25 <b_jonas> however, you can have modified variants of the dice mentioned that have the same number of faces but with fewer symmetries
21:02:01 <b_jonas> in particular you could have a d10 in kind of the normal topology of a dual 5-antiprism, but modify it so that it has no symmetry plane because it looks kind of like a bicycle tire that rolls differently forwards and backwards
21:03:03 <b_jonas> but since it still has enough symmetries for face-transitivity of the symmetries, so it's a fair dice
21:04:06 <b_jonas> riv: you can imagine an ordinary coin. if you throw it hard it's much less likely to land on an edge than if you drop it gently.
21:04:34 <b_jonas> that's why you can't just make a 3-prism to get a d5 that's a fair dice
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21:05:54 <riv> I see!
21:06:43 <ais523> b_jonas: you can construct many other sorts of fair dice by allowing for them to have some faces that aren't stable and thus will never be landed on
21:08:10 <b_jonas> ais523: does that actually allow any fair dice that's really different from the ones listed above, if you count the degenerate cases of d1 and d2 among them?
21:08:12 <ais523> imagine a pyramid with a hemisphere glued to the unique face, such that the hemisphere's circular face is the incircle of the unique face
21:09:04 <ais523> the pyramid won't balance on the hemisphere and (if sufficiently tall) won't balance on the edge of the unique face, so it'll tip over to one of the non-unique faces, and those are all equally likely
21:09:06 <b_jonas> ais523: right, that's kind of like the one with two nodes, but with less symmetries. but I guess I didn't specified well what you count the same
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21:10:02 <ais523> when all the faces are curved, it's harder to prove that the dice will in fact land on a face
21:10:07 <ais523> rather than balanced between two faces somehow
21:11:04 <b_jonas> it could be for some dice, yes
21:13:21 <b_jonas> anyway, you can get that prism thing with flat faces too, if you just make it a dual prism and put the center of gravity to one of the ends so it's only stable on half its faces
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21:36:09 <b_jonas> `? time cube
21:36:11 <HackEso> EARTH HAS 4 CORNER SIMULTANEOUS 4-DAY TIME CUBE IN ONLY 24 HOUR ROTATION. 4 CORNER DAYS, CUBES 4 QUAD EARTH. Bible A Lie & Word Is Lies. Navel Connects 4 Corner 4s. God Is Born Of A Mother - She Left Belly B. Signature. Your dirty lying teachers use only the midnight to midnight 1 day (ignoring 3 other days) Time to not foul (already wrong) bible time. Lie that corrupts earth you educated stupid fools.
21:36:19 <b_jonas> `? wisest human on earth
21:36:21 <HackEso> wisest human on earth? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:36:23 <b_jonas> `? gene ray
21:36:25 <HackEso> Dr Gene Ray is the Greatest Philosopher, and is the Greatest Mathematician. Cubic Harmonics. Only Cubic Harmonics can save humanity. Cubic Harmonics will pacify all religions. 96-hour Cubic Day debunks 1-day unnatural god. 96-hour day willdisprove disunity god. Academians are teaching - pseudocience. Worshipping a Word God will destroy the USA.
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