00:22:19 <esolangs> [[Mini-Flak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95425&oldid=84921 * Ais523 * (+9) /* Specification */ clarification
00:34:19 <esolangs> [[WUUI]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95426&oldid=44002 * Ais523 * (+6) /* Control flow */ fix some dubious grammar
00:37:27 <esolangs> [[WUUI]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95427&oldid=95426 * Ais523 * (+0) /* Programming in WUUI */ typo fix
00:39:32 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Heav * New user account
00:40:02 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95428&oldid=95348 * Heav * (+117)
00:40:37 <esolangs> [[Spiral Rise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95429&oldid=70343 * Ais523 * (+0) /* Computational class */ typo fix
00:45:49 <esolangs> [[The best esolang ever]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=95430 * Heav * (+690) Created page with "{{lowercase}} {{infobox proglang |name=The best esolang ever |paradigms=The best ones |author=[[User:Heav]] |year=[[:Category:2022|2022]] |memsys=A really good system |dimensi..."
00:57:03 <esolangs> [[BlueBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95431&oldid=95332 * PixelatedStarfish * (+29) /* An Indirect Proof */
00:58:18 <esolangs> [[BlueBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95432&oldid=95431 * PixelatedStarfish * (+23) /* An Indirect Proof */
01:00:20 <esolangs> [[BlueBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95433&oldid=95432 * PixelatedStarfish * (+57) /* Program Examples */
01:01:15 <esolangs> [[BlueBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95434&oldid=95433 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Hello World */
01:02:58 <esolangs> [[Talk:The best esolang ever]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=95435 * Emerald * (+411) Created page with "== you are going to end esolangs == Heav what have you done, this esoteric programming language is far too powerful for the esolanging community<br> You have made an esolang s..."
01:05:05 <esolangs> [[The best esolang ever]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95436&oldid=95430 * Razetime * (+56)
01:05:17 <esolangs> [[User:Heav]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=95437 * Razetime * (+4) Created page with "heav"
01:19:23 <esolangs> [[BlueBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95438&oldid=95434 * PixelatedStarfish * (+549) /* An Indirect Proof */
01:20:05 <esolangs> [[BlueBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95439&oldid=95438 * PixelatedStarfish * (-7) /* Proof by Translation to bf */
01:28:18 <esolangs> [[BlueBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95440&oldid=95439 * PixelatedStarfish * (+156) /* Proof by Translation to bf */
01:30:54 <esolangs> [[BlueBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95441&oldid=95440 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Proof by Translation to bf */
01:33:07 <esolangs> [[The best esolang ever]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95442&oldid=95436 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) category
01:33:18 <esolangs> [[BlueBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95443&oldid=95441 * PixelatedStarfish * (+43) /* Proof by Translation to bf */
01:39:23 <esolangs> [[BlueBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95444&oldid=95443 * PixelatedStarfish * (+181) /* Arguments */
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01:54:40 <esolangs> [[BlueBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95445&oldid=95444 * PixelatedStarfish * (+114) /* A Detailed Explanation of the Refer Operator (&) */
01:56:49 <esolangs> [[BlueBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95446&oldid=95445 * PixelatedStarfish * (+12) /* Proof by Translation to bf */
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02:05:39 <esolangs> [[A?b.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95447&oldid=95398 * Masalt * (+1) /* Hello World */
02:06:10 <esolangs> [[A?b.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95448&oldid=95447 * Masalt * (+2) /* Hello World */
02:06:30 <esolangs> [[A?b.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95449&oldid=95448 * Masalt * (-93) /* Truth machine */
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02:48:37 <esolangs> [[User:Heav]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95450&oldid=95437 * Heav * (+132)
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05:46:41 <esolangs> [[The Maze]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95451&oldid=95313 * LEOMOK * (+9)
05:46:56 <esolangs> [[The Maze]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95452&oldid=95451 * LEOMOK * (+4)
05:47:11 <esolangs> [[The Maze]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95453&oldid=95452 * LEOMOK * (-5)
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05:47:48 <esolangs> [[The Maze]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95454&oldid=95453 * LEOMOK * (-27)
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05:49:02 <esolangs> [[The Maze]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95455&oldid=95454 * LEOMOK * (+41)
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07:12:02 <esolangs> [[The Maze]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95456&oldid=95455 * LEOMOK * (-1)
07:12:25 <esolangs> [[The Maze]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95457&oldid=95456 * LEOMOK * (+0)
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08:33:39 <int-e> fizzie... hmm, fizzie knows I think
08:34:21 <esolangs> [[A?b.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95458&oldid=95449 * Masalt * (+7)
08:34:42 <esolangs> [[A?b.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95459&oldid=95458 * Masalt * (+0)
08:34:47 <int-e> https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2022-04-26.html#l8
08:38:30 <esolangs> [[A?b.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95460&oldid=95459 * Masalt * (+0)
08:38:51 <b_jonas> in the meantime we only have perlbot, j-bot, lambdabot, fungot on the channel. kind of less than we're used to but still can be used for programming.
08:38:51 <fungot> b_jonas: i think he does. who wouldn't?.
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08:49:59 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: ( my-list 1 2 3) ' (
08:50:04 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: what i mean, c++?), fnord well), paths are records with three fields: a list of threads!
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08:52:53 <esolangs> [[Cantonese]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95461&oldid=95351 * Indigo * (+9)
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08:55:13 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95462&oldid=95368 * Indigo * (+16) Added Cantonese
09:02:31 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: fungot is the least programmable among them, because it has way too strict limits on runtime and program length
09:02:31 <fungot> b_jonas: you can only use the very lowest bit is 0 for a dirty way to segfault without the section attribute.), the other just uses the html title... but why not
09:03:28 <hppavilion[1]> I always make the mistake of trying to parse things fungot says.
09:03:29 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: but no, not exactly the same version around any longer. now there's a real camera version of creative's pc cam.
09:04:03 <b_jonas> also in unrelated news, SGDQ 2022 list of accepted runs is public now
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09:21:44 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * E3w034q53 * New user account
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10:14:14 <esolangs> [[HeacunQ9+]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=95463 * AmNow * (+984) Created page with "HeacunQ9+ is an esoteric programming language derived from [[HQ9+]], and was made by [[User:AmNow|AmNow]]. == Commands == # H - Print [[Hello, World!]]. # E - Execut..."
10:14:28 <esolangs> [[User:AmNow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95464&oldid=95141 * AmNow * (+18)
10:16:07 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95465&oldid=95462 * AmNow * (+18) /* H */ lang
10:16:33 <esolangs> [[User:AmNow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95466&oldid=95464 * AmNow * (-2)
10:29:32 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RedGoldBelt * New user account
10:32:51 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95467&oldid=95428 * RedGoldBelt * (+174) /* Introductions */
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11:12:15 <esolangs> [[Brainfoctal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95468&oldid=75553 * Jan Gamecuber * (+73)
11:15:03 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95469&oldid=95467 * E3w034q53 * (+176) E3w034q53
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11:24:22 <esolangs> [[ight]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95470&oldid=87928 * Jan Gamecuber * (+1449) Adding rectwrap and more length to the output.
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11:50:49 <Guest98> Can a truth-machine use anything other than 1 or 0? I made one in Homespring that outputs either False or an infinite series of True. It only considers True, true, 1, and "In Homespring, the null program is not a quine." without quotes as True. Everything else returns False. I could make it only use 1 and 0, but it would be boring and way too easy,
11:50:49 <Guest98> since Homespring is such a useful and programming practical language.
11:51:25 <Guest98> *Practical programming language
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11:58:02 <fizzie> Oh, right, HackEso. I've been on a trip to Canterbury, forgot about that.
11:59:19 <fizzie> Hmm, kind of looks like it's failing to connect. Odd.
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12:00:51 <fizzie> Due to: socat[61] E getaddrinfo("irc.libera.chat", "NULL", {1,0,1,6}, {}): Temporary failure
12:01:11 <fizzie> Think the container's resolv.conf still has the previous platform's DNS servers.
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12:06:50 <fungot> Guest98: so i've been panicking abotu this lately...)
12:07:12 <fungot> Guest98: fnord. ( to everybody). the gamma function: http://upload.wikimedia.org/ wikipedia/ commons/ thumb/ fnord/ fun/ fnord/ fnord
12:07:16 <fizzie> There's an explanation in https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/README.md
12:07:17 <fungot> fizzie: qt is written in fnord. i did a little.) have lower precedence than *shrugs*. mind you, but i think it's pretty simple
12:07:46 <fizzie> I guess there's also an explanation in https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fungot for that matter.
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12:09:43 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
12:12:27 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2 8ball rreree rerere botsnack bf
12:12:56 <fizzie> ^rainbow needs some input maybe
12:12:56 <fungot> needs some input maybe
12:13:05 <fungot> +3>4+6[->+8<],[<4.>[->+>+<2]>2-[-[-[-[-[-[-[<[-]>[-]]]]]]]]<[-<+>2+<]<+>4.[-<2+>3+<]<2+2.[-]>.>2[-<+>]<2,]
12:13:59 <Guest98> Can you add a way to see only user-defined commands?
12:14:49 <fizzie> Anything in ^show *is* user-defined. People have just added user-defined commands for ^ul and ^bf for documentation purposes.
12:14:51 <fungot> (^ul -- evaluates Underload)S
12:14:54 <fungot> ^ul -- evaluates Underload
12:15:04 <fizzie> ^ul (this triggers the built-in instead)S
12:15:04 <fungot> this triggers the built-in instead
12:15:29 <fizzie> (That's because the built-in is triggered by a leading "^ul " prefix, including the space.)
12:15:36 <fungot> (^bf -- evaluates brainfuck)S
12:16:03 <fizzie> Arguably that one should've been written in brainfuck just for consistency. But then it'd be substantially longer.
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12:26:15 <int-e> (But I have no clue to what extent that is automagic, and to what extend it's something you have to configure. I've only touched Linux' namespaces at their lowest level.)
12:27:10 <fizzie> (I don't know what was up with _that_ bot, maybe it was just a coincidentally well-timed usual fluke. Or maybe reloading the nftables rules removed the stateful firewall state.)
12:27:18 <fizzie> The container is using systemd-nspawn for some magic, but the networking's pretty manual.
12:27:48 <fizzie> Annoyingly the container is also missing convenience features like `dig`, `host` and `ping`, so I have to test with socat, which I never remember how to use.
12:29:00 <fizzie> `ip link` says <NO-CARRIER,BROADCAST,MULTICAST,UP> and I don't remember if it used to have that NO-CARRIER in it before.
12:29:08 <int-e> Hmm, oh in addition to connection tracking, the host also has to has forwarding for IP enabled
12:29:29 <fizzie> On the host side it says <BROADCAST,MULTICAST> ... state DOWN ... which doesn't sound right either.
12:30:05 <fizzie> Oh, I get it: they had regenerated an /etc/network/interfaces file as part of the migration, and that was missing the rules for the container's interface.
12:30:19 <fizzie> (As an aside, they had generated a pretty weird one.)
12:30:44 <int-e> the former makes sense... the latter sounds weird :)
12:31:33 <int-e> Oh, *that* migration. So that happened, good to know.
12:32:05 <fizzie> The one they made had only an IPv4 address on `eth0`, and then it had a separate `eth0:1` address with the IPv6 address on it, and 127.0.0.2/32 configured as the IPv4 address of that other interface. I don't really know what's up with that.
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12:33:14 <HackEso> HackEso: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
12:33:20 <fizzie> Restoring the old /etc/network/interfaces on the host and restarting the container seems to have worked.
12:34:13 <int-e> Thanks fizzie! (I imagine I helped a little)
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12:35:53 <fizzie> Now that it's back up, I should probably break it again by finally upgrading from Debian oldstable to stable. ;)
12:35:56 <fizzie> Well, maybe a little later.
12:37:02 <int-e> (I have had surprisingly good experience with upgrading debian stable... but it's always nerve-wrecking)
12:37:33 <fizzie> Yeah, I don't think it usually breaks, was being a little facetious there.
12:37:40 <fizzie> I think officially Debian 10's security support ends in July 2022.
12:38:28 <int-e> Anyway, the 127.0.0.2/32 makes absolutely no sense to me either.
12:38:43 <int-e> nor the split between eth0 and eth0:1
12:39:47 <fizzie> It still had the usual 127.0.0.1/8 on `lo`. The only hypothesis I have is, some automation of theirs used 127.0.0.2/32 as a placeholder/"dummy" IPv4 address so that eth0:1 would not have only an IPv6 address.
12:41:24 <fizzie> It also said "# Automatically generated by OnApp" on top, which appears to be some sort a "cloud platform" you can brand and resell.
12:46:25 <int-e> a cursory google search suggests it's not OnApp's fault (I'd expect hits for the combination of "127.0.0.1" and "onapp" then)
12:47:23 <fizzie> Bytemark had an in-house thing (initially called "BigV", then renamed "Bytemark Cloud") but I guess their new overlords have bought the infrastructure from elsewhere.
12:58:54 <int-e> Uh, I meant 127.0.0.*2*
13:17:55 <esolangs> [[YABFD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95471&oldid=95370 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+53) Add categories
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14:07:20 <esolangs> [[A?b.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95472&oldid=95460 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+59) Categorise, header levels
14:08:18 <esolangs> [[A?b.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95473&oldid=95472 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) Add category
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15:20:21 <Ginger> fizzie: Could you make https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:GingerBot part of the bot group?
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15:28:09 -!- Ginger has set topic: Welcome to the definitive cult of esoteric programming language design, dry-cleaning, and DNA modification! |qq https://esolangs.org | logs: https://logs.esolangs.org/.
15:28:24 -!- Ginger has set topic: Welcome to the definitive cult of esoteric programming language design, dry-cleaning, and DNA modification! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://logs.esolangs.org/.
15:28:34 <Ginger> I... should probably _not_ be able to do that
15:28:51 <razetime> hm yes, that looks like it should be operator-only.
15:29:17 -!- Ginger has set topic: Welcome to the definitive cult of esoteric programming language design, wet-cleaning, and DNA modification! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://logs.esolangs.org/.
15:29:23 <Ginger> I wonder if anyone will notice
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15:29:49 <razetime> i assume many have already noticed.
15:29:58 <Corbin> Hail Eris, full of mischief.
15:30:15 <razetime> just asking, are you GingerIndustries from Code Golf StackExchange?
15:30:36 <Ginger> Well, I'm just Ginger now
15:30:44 <Ginger> the one and only [citation needed]
15:31:20 <Ginger> okay, lemme just google how to do that
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15:39:20 -!- river has set topic: ..
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16:24:27 -!- ais523 has set topic: Welcome to the definitive cult of esoteric programming language design, dry-cleaning, and DNA modification! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://logs.esolangs.org/.
16:24:44 <ais523> some amount of topic drift is expected here, we reset it back to the original when it gets too offtopic
16:25:08 <ais523> but you shouldn't blank the topic, there's some information that's supposed to always stay there
16:25:27 <ais523> (part of it was required to comply with Freenode rules, but now that we're on Libera, I'm not sure whether the rules have changed)
16:26:09 <ais523> err, I should probably have turned my op powers on for that announcement, but it's too late now, just assume that came with a little op marker next to it
16:27:00 <Corbin> Channels with public logs definitely should still have an indicator, yes.
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16:27:21 <int-e> https://libera.chat/policies/#public-logging
16:27:29 <ais523> re: bot flags, they shouldn't be given to users just because they're bots
16:28:03 <ais523> a bot flag gives a user extra powers: it removes some rate limits, lets the user hide edits from Recent Changes, and lets the user edit user talk pages without triggering the Orange Bar Of Doom
16:28:35 <ais523> all those powers are abusable, so it only makes sense to give them to an account which has an active need for at least one of them, and can explain why it needs it
16:28:51 <ais523> also admins have a hair trigger for blocking bots, because they can do a lot of damage in a very short space of time
16:31:04 <ais523> I used to be very active in bot approval discussions on Wikipedia – some bots don't need a flag to act, generally the only ones that do are the ones that make a huge number of very boring changes
16:34:32 <Corbin> ais523: This all sounds in line with what I remember about WP. Certainly there were times when my manual edit rate on WP exceeded the bot edit rate that Ginger proposes.
16:34:46 <int-e> I believe Ginger wants to automate something around the (joke) language lists (for which we have both categories and separate pages). I'm not sure whether we've discussed any details of that here.
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16:36:10 <ais523> I'm actually wondering whether the language list acts as something of a filter – many of the boring languages that nobody cares about never get added there
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16:37:00 <ais523> it would be nice if we could make Esolang work for its original purpose, as an archive of programming languages no matter how non-notable or pointless
16:37:11 <ais523> but also have some way of discovering the more interesting/nontrivial languages
16:37:13 <Corbin> I personally think it's rude to list my languages on the language lists; I don't presume that anybody particularly would want to find them by scrolling through a list of names.
16:37:43 <int-e> I'm somewhat worried that such a bot might end up fighting manual edits. I'd like to have some details on how it's supposed to work before it starts editing stuff...
16:37:53 <Corbin> But I also appreciate PythonshellDebugwindow's hard work, and they're clearly motivated to maintain the list and categories somewhat.
16:38:06 <ais523> my general policy about this sort of thing is "you don't have to add your page to the language list, but it's recommended because it helps people to find it"
16:38:24 <ais523> I don't think I have a policy about adding someone else's page
16:40:03 <ais523> in theory, there's no ownership of language pages on Esolang – anyone can update any page with additional details about the language, examples, etc.
16:40:34 <ais523> in practice, though, the language creator is usually the best or only source for knowing how it functions, and some of the languages are under active development, so it can be hard to write about someone else's language and even harder to overrule the author about it
16:41:15 <int-e> Hmm. Maybe I'll add something to https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_portal#Suggestion:_Bot_to_auto-update_the_language_list tomorrow.
16:44:23 <ais523> I think it's generally agreed to be preferable to have all languages in Category:Languages, but not necessarily to have them all on the language list?
16:45:43 <Corbin> Yeah. Not to be a deletionist, but I personally wouldn't maintain something like the language list, not when the categories already suffice.
16:45:50 <int-e> Sounds reasonable to me. I have no strong opinion either way... I basically don't use the language list at all.
16:46:37 <int-e> And I have been wondering why we have both that page and the category... the latter is easier to get right...
16:47:07 <river> I have a strong opinion on it
16:48:58 <int-e> the subcategories are far more valuable
16:52:36 <Corbin> Yeah. I wish that I had the headspace and time to keep hacking on the hierarchies for languages by computational complexity, or other subcategorizations.
16:53:09 <Corbin> I guess I could answer specific questions, or fulfill specific requests to hack on a page.
16:54:32 <ais523> river: in that case, letting us know what the strong opinion is could be helpful, we might agree with it!
16:55:03 <ais523> the computational class categories have been working surprisingly well – it might be worth adding an "other", but they cover the vast majority of esolangs between them
16:55:35 <ais523> generally speaking, the only esolangs that have a known compuational class that isn't FSM/PDA/LBA/TC/uncomputable were explicitly constructed to be that way
16:55:52 <ais523> (and "uncomputable" is a big range of classes, but lumping them all together makes sense)
16:57:45 <Corbin> For sure. And that's not a bad thing, either; some complexity classes are only identified *because* we have real-world systems or automata which address problems in the class.
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16:59:56 <ais523> there is some ambiguity in the categorisation, e.g. is the LBA category for languages that can be implemented by an LBA but not an FSM, or is it for LBA-complete languages?
17:00:17 <ais523> but I think sorting out the ambiguity might be a bad thing because many people who categorise languages don't know the distinction
17:01:45 <ais523> even as it is, languages with finite storage frequently get incorrectly marked as TC…
17:02:18 <b_jonas> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/README.md "Requires: a Funge-98 interpreter with support for the STRN, FILE, FING, SOCK, SCKE, REXP, TOYS and SUBR fingerprints." => hehe, documented just in case someone wants to port it to a different befunge interpreter.
17:02:18 <fungot> b_jonas: ( scheme48 was already seven years old at that point
17:03:02 <ais523> b_jonas: befunge interpreters were a Big Deal in this channel at one point
17:03:49 <ais523> I remember the big drive to get all the major interprets to obey the spec, I think it lasted for weeks
17:05:09 <b_jonas> "esolangs quit / <fizzie> At least the wiki's still up." => https://xkcd.com/349/
17:06:39 <ais523> oh, that bot's down too?
17:06:49 <ais523> I'll need to remember to check the recent pages page on the wiki explicitly then
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17:06:57 <ais523> sometimes I just rely on the bot feed in IRC
17:07:03 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> Annoyingly the container is also missing convenience features like `dig`, `host`" => the third one is nslookup by the way
17:08:38 <b_jonas> "and then it had a separate `eth0:1` address with the IPv6 address on it, and 127.0.0.2/32 configured as the IPv4 address of that other interface." => maybe it doesn't have native ipv6 internet access, and that's either a local network ipv6 address or a transparent ipv6 through ipv4 address or something
17:09:11 <ais523> 127.0.0.2 is a weird way to write the loopback address
17:09:34 <ais523> I'm not sure whether or not a computer can distinguish between different loopback addresses, normally there isn't much of a need for more than one of htem
17:09:38 <b_jonas> "I should probably break it again by finally upgrading from Debian oldstable to stable." => yeah, I've been meaning to do that for a while, upgrading from debian 10 to 11. at least now I have a recent full backup for it.
17:10:20 <b_jonas> some things always break when I upgrade debian version, but it often unbreaks more than it breaks
17:12:28 <b_jonas> "a cursory google search suggests it's not OnApp's fault" => on my work machine I occasionally used a certain VPN client software to connect to a remote network where we installed/maintained our product on that remote network, and that client software always adds a nonexistant ip address as DNS server, so while the VPN is connected you have to wait for a timeout for any DNS request to resolve.
17:13:53 <b_jonas> Ginger: I did notice the topic change. we deliberately let everyone to change the topic, at least as long as they don't abuse that privilage much. because of freenode policy we were required ot have the url for the channel logs there, and presumably that still applies on libera.
17:14:20 <ais523> fwiw, it'd surprise me if Ginger logreads
17:14:33 <ais523> but maybe next time Ginger is here we can link to the logs
17:14:50 <b_jonas> in theory ChanServ can enforce a topic suffix that users can't change
17:16:06 <b_jonas> "some bots don't need a flag to act" => yes, but I think Ginger wasn't asking for a bot flag either, just approval
17:16:38 <ais523> <Ginger> fizzie: Could you make https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:GingerBot part of the bot group?
17:16:44 <b_jonas> "it'd surprise me if Ginger logreads" => they were trying to automatedly fix stuff on the wiki. that's precisely the kind of user who might logread
17:16:47 <ais523> was a specific ask for a flag, prior to approval
17:16:58 <b_jonas> ah, I missed that request then, ok
17:17:32 <b_jonas> "I'm actually wondering whether the language list acts as something of a filter – many of the boring languages that nobody cares about never get added there" => hmm
17:17:38 <Corbin> Normally I'd be wary, but it seems like they're well-known in a sister community, and if the Stack Exchange sites can share reputation then so can we.
17:18:58 <ais523> well, Code Golf Stack Exchange has had to put very sharp restrictions on bots, at least in chat, because its userbase's enthusiasm for them often exceeds the bots' actual utility
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17:19:05 <b_jonas> "the language creator is usually the best or only source" => most of the pages I add are stub link-only or short pages about languages that such other people who aren't on the wiki create
17:19:22 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, but that's unusual
17:19:27 <b_jonas> "preferable to have all languages in Category:Languages, but not necessarily to have them all on the language list?" => that can be ok, yes
17:19:36 <ais523> I do that sometimes as well, but I've added more of my own languages
17:19:42 <b_jonas> then I might add more pages to the category when I see them
17:19:48 <b_jonas> that can be partly automated too probably
17:20:15 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:UncategorizedPages exists
17:20:25 <ais523> but, I don't think you can automate knowing how those pages are supposed to be categorized
17:21:06 <ais523> some of them are there because they're hard to categorize
17:21:57 <esolangs> [[Minceraft]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95474&oldid=90406 * Ais523 * (+20) cat
17:22:02 <ais523> there, I categorized one of htem
17:22:27 <b_jonas> "ambiguity ... is the LBA category for" => the category page specifically says "computational complexity equivalent to a Linear bounded automaton" hmm wait, you're right, the "a" is ambiguous there.
17:23:23 <esolangs> [[Binary ///]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95475&oldid=90791 * Jan Gamecuber * (+30)
17:23:40 <b_jonas> I had a weak suspicion that Amycus with a certain set of rules dropped was of an intermediate complexity class, but I never really had a proof
17:25:05 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, that's half of the partly automation; the other half would be to find pages that have one of the subcategories but not Languages
17:25:40 <b_jonas> esolangs was down for a short time only, but yes, check RecentChanges
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18:02:37 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Littleb2009 * New user account
18:05:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95476&oldid=95469 * Littleb2009 * (+234) /* Introductions */ +me
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19:23:48 <Guest98> How common is it to turn joke languages into usable languages? Currently pondering whether I should even make the original joke language a subset or not, since I'm turning an output-only joke language into a high-level OOP usable joke language.
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19:32:06 <zzo38> Do any cards in Magic: the Gathering cause objects to enter the battlefield initially phased out?
19:32:30 <Guest98> Are you making an MtG esolang?
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22:17:29 <esolangs> [[Uzumaki]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95477&oldid=95337 * Zero player rodent * (+95)
22:22:55 <kee> MtG is already an esolang. https://arxiv.org/abs/1904.09828
22:27:13 <esolangs> [[Bird]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=95478 * Masalt * (+68) Created page with "{{stub}} Fish is a language invented by User:Masalt, using Python 3"
22:27:31 <zzo38> Can a different kind of esolang be made with a custom set of Magic: the Gathering cards, that uses a significantly different construction for computation but is also suitable for puzzles and for playing a game, too?
22:27:51 <esolangs> [[User:Masalt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95479&oldid=95364 * Masalt * (+9) /* Languages */
22:28:08 <esolangs> [[User:Masalt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95480&oldid=95479 * Masalt * (+1) /* Languages */
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22:28:54 <esolangs> [[Bird]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95482&oldid=95481 * Masalt * (+4)
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22:31:22 <esolangs> [[Pattern]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95486&oldid=68155 * Jan Gamecuber * (+17) adding rectangle wrap
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22:33:41 <esolangs> [[Bird]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95488&oldid=95487 * Masalt * (+0)
22:34:55 <esolangs> [[Bird]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95489&oldid=95488 * Masalt * (+38) /* Examples */
22:37:18 <kee> zzo38: If you pick a subset of cards such that a different set of constraints can force the players to execute a computation, yes.
22:37:43 <kee> You have to remove their ability to exit the states where computation can occur.
22:39:42 <sknebel> I guess maybe a variant could be where optimal play continues the computation
22:41:33 <zzo38> I mean making up custom cards, although it could lead to simpler situations where every valid choice works, but still is suitable puzzles/games that different choices are significant, too.
22:42:01 <kee> sknebel: That kind of thing is tricky, unless the player who defects has trivially lost.
22:42:17 <kee> "Optimal play" has a habit of not being what us squishy humans think it is.
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22:46:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Crow Person Justin * New user account
22:56:53 <esolangs> [[Bird]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95490&oldid=95489 * Masalt * (+8)
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23:02:35 <b_jonas> fungot, tell us the story of how you became enlightened
23:02:35 <fungot> b_jonas: i'm on no time schedule, just want to know
23:03:57 <esolangs> [[Nndstojmp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=95491 * Jan Gamecuber * (+729) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=nndstojmp |paradigms=imperative |author=[[User:jan Gamecuber]] |year=2022 |memsys=bytes that have indexes |class=:Category:Unknown computational cla..."
23:05:51 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95492&oldid=95465 * Jan Gamecuber * (+16)
23:25:35 <esolangs> [[Nndstojmp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95493&oldid=95491 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) Lowercase
23:53:08 <esolangs> [[BlueBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=95494&oldid=95446 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1)