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00:54:28 <esolangs> [[Two Four]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97120&oldid=96351 * 00Her0 * (-8) Remove WIP
01:24:30 <esolangs> [[Z Sharp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=97121 * PixelatedStarfish * (+95) Created page with "{Stubs} A language by AstroSam... ==External Links== [itch.io https://astrosam.itch.io/z-sharp]"
01:24:48 <esolangs> [[Z Sharp]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97122&oldid=97121 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) 
01:25:00 <esolangs> [[Z Sharp]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97123&oldid=97122 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) 
01:25:33 <esolangs> [[Z Sharp]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97124&oldid=97123 * PixelatedStarfish * (-3) 
01:27:14 <esolangs> [[Z Sharp]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97125&oldid=97124 * PixelatedStarfish * (+60) /* External Links */
01:27:28 <esolangs> [[Z Sharp]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97126&oldid=97125 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* External Links */
01:28:11 <esolangs> [[Z Sharp]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97127&oldid=97126 * PixelatedStarfish * (+61) /* External Links */
01:38:37 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97128&oldid=96594 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Considerations */
02:06:14 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97129&oldid=97128 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* Considerations */
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04:31:26 <zzo38> Now I think I have a backup of all of the files on a USB flash drive. Tomorrow I will try to record them onto DVDs, I suppose. If the hard disk still works by the time I replace it (although perhaps first I should check if there is a problem with the power, that can be fixed? I don't know if it is the problem or if it can be fixed), I may instead clone the disk to a new one instead of restoring backups, though.
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05:28:11 <esolangs> [[User:Yujh]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97130&oldid=94787 * Yujh * (-511) 
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07:33:25 <esolangs> [[Literally every golflang ever]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97131&oldid=95032 * Otesunki * (-35) clarification
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08:11:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Scriptoline *  New user account
08:16:13 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97132&oldid=97086 * Scriptoline * (+300) Added my introduction at the bottom
08:17:57 <esolangs> [[User:Scriptoline]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=97133 * Scriptoline * (+179) Create user page
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09:38:53 <esolangs> [[MalbolgeLisp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97134&oldid=86503 * Palaiologos * (+0) 
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09:47:28 <shachaf> Taneb: Fancy, are you doing computable reals?
09:47:57 <shachaf> Do you know whether it's possible to define computable integration in Agda, or whether it's not possible to show that it halts?
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10:19:08 <wib_jonas> shachaf: is this again for the easy case of integrating a continuous function on compact support?
10:19:21 <wib_jonas> if not, can you be more specific on how general you want?
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11:47:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Chartuch *  New user account
11:51:52 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97135&oldid=97132 * Chartuch * (+216) /* Introductions */
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13:23:23 <Taneb> shachaf: ask me again in a week! Right now I'm not 100% it's possible to define computable multiplication
13:23:29 <Taneb> (it is, I just haven't figured out how)
13:23:51 <Taneb> I believe the anwer is yes, though
13:24:46 <Taneb> Hmm, why do I believe that?
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16:10:03 <int-e> @where yafgc
16:10:03 <lambdabot> I know nothing about yafgc.
16:10:10 <int-e> `"
16:10:13 <HackEso> 1/1:1316) <wob_jonas> and at least don't put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that's insulting Hofstadter \ 638) <Phantom_Hoover> Just because you can't design a reliable Monopoly machine out of chocolate doesn't mean nobody else can.
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16:56:09 <shachaf> @tell wib_jonas Integrating an arbitrary computable function on computable reals, on some interval.
16:56:10 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
16:56:55 <shachaf> This is computable, but the only way I know to do it uses trickery.
17:01:30 <fizzie> int-e: That sounds like one of those NetHack acronyms, YAFAP and YASD and YAFMC and so.
17:01:57 <Sgeo> "A computer science professor once told us that Control Data chose the inferior 1's complement approach because 2's complement was patented, and this web page seems to confirm that."
17:02:41 <int-e> fizzie: It's "yet another fantasy gamer comic" and the site is currently absent (replaced by a hoster's placeholder page) and I don't know what happened :P
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17:03:24 <int-e> and it was in the middle of unraveling a murder mystery too
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17:09:05 <Sgeo> I seem to be currently obsessed with PLATO and CDC 6600, although I still don't know how to use DtCyber and NOS, except that the shutdown procedure is more complicated than the start procedure
17:09:28 <b_jonas> ok
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17:33:00 <Sgeo> http://60bits.net/msu/mycomp/cdc6000/65inst.htm I'm amused at listing "cycles" for Program Stop as infinite
17:35:40 <int-e> Hmm, what's the clock frequency here... 10MHz, says Wikipedia.
17:37:36 <Sgeo> That table is for 6500 BTW, I've been reading more about 6600. Think the opcodes are the same, cycles might not be
17:38:05 <int-e> the 10MHz is for 6400 and 6600, so it /may/ apply to the 6500 as well.
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19:36:29 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck constants]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97136&oldid=66802 * Stefvanschie * (+38) Add (14, 2) version of 14
19:37:34 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck constants]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97137&oldid=97136 * Stefvanschie * (-38) Undo revision 97136 by [[Special:Contributions/Stefvanschie|Stefvanschie]] ([[User talk:Stefvanschie|talk]])
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22:04:36 <ais523> 1s complement is actually pretty easy to implement in hardware – the primary difference is that instead of setting the carry-in of the least significant bit to 0, you set it to the carry-out of the most significant bit
22:04:52 <ais523> (in this representation, 0 is represented as all-bits-1)
22:05:38 <ais523> this has a few disadvantages from the software point of view, though, e.g. it's much harder to create working bignum arithmetic
22:06:04 <ais523> (also the hardware now has a circular dependency, which makes it hard to get high clock speeds)
22:06:37 <ais523> one nice thing about 1s complement is that the number of possible values for an in is of the form (2**n)-1, so you can make it a prime number by picking n appropriately
22:06:55 <ais523> and lots of algorithms work more neatly if your numbers wrap modulo a prime
22:12:45 <b_jonas> so was two's complement actually patented? because that might explain why some of the PDPs have two's complement thinly disguised as ones' complement
22:14:06 <b_jonas> but it would be weird if there was a patent because surely TAOCP would mention that
22:14:19 <b_jonas> I know it's not legal advice but even so
22:16:56 <ais523> now I'm trying to remember how the sign bit of floating-point numbers is encoded
22:17:47 <b_jonas> ais523: the sign is encoded sign-magnitude, unless you mean the sign of the exponent
22:18:02 <b_jonas> at least for modern floats
22:18:10 <ais523> was thinking about sign of the mantissa
22:18:40 <ais523> 2s-complement mantissas would be viable, I think?
22:19:17 <ais523> or, hmm
22:19:21 <b_jonas> http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/cp0201.htm tells about historic formats
22:19:25 <ais523> the top bit of the mantissa is omitted because it's always the same
22:19:36 <ais523> but that'd make 2s-complement really confusing
22:20:13 <ais523> ah, that page suggests 2s-complement mantissa as a possible option
22:20:28 <b_jonas> with or without hidden bits?
22:20:54 <FireFly> for ieee754 floats the mantissa is unsigned, isn't it? and there's just a separate sign bit
22:21:02 <b_jonas> FireFly: yes
22:21:09 <b_jonas> the exponent is between the mantissa and the sign
22:21:38 <b_jonas> so it's the whole float together that's encoded sign-magnitude
22:22:11 <ais523> it looks like usually the second bit is hidden
22:22:25 <ais523> but historically it was quite common to put flag bits into the gap
22:22:30 <ais523> err, second-most-significant
22:22:38 <b_jonas> and you could alternately encode the whole float as ones' complement, which has the advantage that you can compare floats and integers the same way (except for NaNs)
22:24:07 <ais523> on the subject of flag bits, I still think that it's correct for processors to implement 65- or 66-bit integers
22:24:12 <ais523> for registers, not for memory storage
22:25:04 <ais523> and, rather than using a flag register, have their conditional jumps be based on the value of a register, either on zeroness of the register as a whole, or on the top few bits
22:25:13 <b_jonas> ais523: as just output operands (which means each register carries its own carry bit), or as both input and output operands (which is what Apollo Guidance Computer does)
22:25:34 <ais523> b_jonas: I was thinking both on input and on output, but both of those possibilities are reasonable
22:25:50 <b_jonas> ais523: the main difficulty with 65-bit registers is that it makes it hard for a function to save a register
22:26:06 <ais523> you could have a 65-bit stack?
22:26:32 <ais523> having the stack in "normal" memory eventually turned out to be a mistake
22:26:56 <ais523> you need to spill it occasionally, but modern processors pretty much have to keep a second copy of the stack internally and sync it against the in-memory version anyway
22:28:08 <ais523> my current belief about the correct stack arrangement is to have two or three stacks: one for return addresses, one for register spills when the size of the spill is statically known (this can be combined with the return addresses), and one for local variables and for function arguments that don't fit in registers, together with anything of varying size
22:29:09 <b_jonas> so? the CPU also keeps a second copy cache of all the normal memory and spills it whenever you access more than 8 pages. it also keeps a copy of code that it's executing, and of page tables. that doesn't mean that those shouldn't be in normal memory.
22:30:44 <b_jonas> admittedly the code is irrelevant, the CPU effectively decides to give up optimizing when you modify it.
22:30:46 <ais523> keeping them synced constantly to normal memory has performance issues, though
22:31:20 <ais523> you want to do it only on occasion, or when an appropriate memory barrier is given explicitly
22:31:41 <b_jonas> dunno
22:32:03 <ais523> but modern processors pretty much have to keep the return address buffer stacked with the part of L1 cache that backs the top of the stack, which is just extra complexity that benefits only backwards compatibility
22:32:11 <ais523> s/stacked/synced/
22:32:18 <b_jonas> I mean MMIX does the thing where the register stack isn't in the main memory but is synced only when it overflows
22:32:23 <b_jonas> so it could certainly work
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22:33:05 <b_jonas> but that stack is of course less capable than a main memory stack, so a general compiler would need to use a second stack besides it for eg. storing array locals
22:33:09 <ais523> processor manufacturers are looking at ways to prevent the return address stack being modified by direct writes to memory, to help prevent exploits hijacking the control flow
22:33:34 <ais523> I think the current arrangement involves two copies of the stack in main memory, with different access protections
22:34:05 <ais523> one copy can only be written by call instructions, and only have its stack pointer changed by call/ret, and any ret instruction checks both stacks and throws a processor trap if they don't match
22:34:36 <b_jonas> yeah, that sounds like they don't want it in main memory
22:35:24 <zzo38> Storing return address stack in a separate address space could also help, although I do not know what will be happening if you are using setjmp?
22:36:17 <ais523> I don't know whether or how this works with setjmp
22:36:34 <ais523> it might be possible to make it work by having a machine instruction to discard return stack entries
22:37:30 <b_jonas> that would be one more Intercal invention used for serious purposes
22:38:21 <zzo38> My design of "VM3" does not allow code addresses to ever be stored in main memory nor in general purpose registers, and it does have instruction to discard return stack entries, as well as a special kind of frame for setjmp
22:38:50 <esolangs> [[Bird]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97138&oldid=95690 * Masalt * (+106) 
22:39:56 <zzo38> (Although I have a different reason for doing this instead of to avoid hijacking; my reason is to allow multiple kinds of implementations, so that both interpreters and JIT are possible)
22:40:54 <zzo38> (Although it does avoid hijacking too)
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22:46:35 <esolangs> [[Bird]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97139&oldid=97138 * Masalt * (+23) 
23:14:37 <esolangs> [[List of quines]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97140&oldid=96419 * Masalt * (+20) 
23:17:55 <esolangs> [[List of quines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97141&oldid=97140 * Ais523 * (+2) /* bird */ fix heading formatting
23:21:53 <esolangs> [[User:CNK]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97142&oldid=96573 * CNK * (+44) 
23:23:37 <esolangs> [[User:CNK]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97143&oldid=97142 * CNK * (+10) 
23:29:34 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97144&oldid=97129 * PixelatedStarfish * (+100) /* The Debugger */
23:29:58 <esolangs> [[User:Masalt]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97145&oldid=96123 * Masalt * (-10) /* Coming Soon */
23:31:05 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97146&oldid=97144 * PixelatedStarfish * (+14) /* The Debugger */
23:33:33 <esolangs> [[Tablebase]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97147&oldid=96507 * Lemonz * (+3) /* Table of conte- I mean commands */
23:33:43 <esolangs> [[Tablebase]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97148&oldid=97147 * Lemonz * (-113) /* Table of conte- I mean commands */
23:33:48 <esolangs> [[Bird]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97149&oldid=97139 * Masalt * (+7) 
23:34:15 <esolangs> [[Path]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=97150 * Masalt * (+106) Created page with "Path is a two-dimensional [[esoteric programming language] invented by [[User:Masalt|masalt]] in Python 3."
23:34:24 <esolangs> [[Path]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97151&oldid=97150 * Masalt * (+1) 
23:36:46 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97152&oldid=97146 * PixelatedStarfish * (+13) /* Example */
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23:38:56 <esolangs> [[Path]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97153&oldid=97151 * Masalt * (+103) 
23:39:28 <Sgeo> https://people.cs.clemson.edu/~mark/subroutines.html this looks interesting
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