< 1654214404 518901 :littlebo1eep!~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1654214584 350528 :littlebo1eep!~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo JOIN #esolangs alMalsamo :alMalsamo < 1654214584 535021 :littlebobeep!~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1654215583 632703 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Some instructions of RISC-V bit manipulation extension seems to be similar to MMIX but seems many don't, and RISC-V does not seems to have the MOR and MXOR instructions of MMIX, even though I think that it would be good. However, RISC-V is 32-bits and 64-bits, and MMIX is only 64-bits, so maybe that is why they did not put them in RISC-V? > 1654215893 847880 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Path14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97716&oldid=97706 5* 03Masalt 5* (+78) 10/* Instructions */ < 1654216409 858378 :monoxane4!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654216470 351982 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1654216470 795329 :monoxane4!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane > 1654217197 265995 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Xarthan 5* 10New user account < 1654217198 45673 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1654217244 123574 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1654217352 204653 :monoxane9!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654217462 87581 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1654217462 578268 :monoxane9!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane > 1654218089 149153 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97717&oldid=97688 5* 03Xarthan 5* (+270) 10 < 1654218371 771535 :monoxane8!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654218439 935267 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1654218440 128957 :monoxane8!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane > 1654218956 253577 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brain Ah Fuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=97718 5* 03Xarthan 5* (+155) 10categories i need to go to bed > 1654218997 690842 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brain Ah Fuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97719&oldid=97718 5* 03Xarthan 5* (+21) 10i need to go to bed < 1654220791 694093 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1654220912 233615 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1654221502 759033 :monoxane1!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654221597 593333 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1654221597 994542 :monoxane1!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane < 1654222072 769534 :monoxane1!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654222110 660890 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1654222110 802598 :monoxane1!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane < 1654222431 760615 :monoxane2!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654222549 597731 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1654222549 988456 :monoxane2!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane < 1654222984 333131 :monoxane5!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654223034 560319 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1654223034 818895 :monoxane5!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane > 1654223317 745015 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gino14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97720&oldid=97699 5* 03Z Ling 5* (+5) 10 > 1654223347 672171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gino14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97721&oldid=97720 5* 03Z Ling 5* (-2) 10 > 1654223364 679184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gino14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97722&oldid=97721 5* 03Z Ling 5* (-5) 10/* */ < 1654223440 965346 :monoxane1!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654223510 136856 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1654223510 830665 :monoxane1!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane > 1654223837 852635 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gino14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97723&oldid=97722 5* 03Z Ling 5* (+281) 10 < 1654225054 429448 :littlebo1eep!~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds > 1654225770 692919 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gino14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97724&oldid=97723 5* 03Z Ling 5* (-43) 10/* */ < 1654225931 770475 :monoxane8!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654226030 760375 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1654226030 959167 :monoxane8!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane < 1654226099 967720 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? password < 1654226103 661359 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The password of the month is not a password, but a special phrase-guessing operation. > 1654226652 535837 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gino14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97725&oldid=97724 5* 03Z Ling 5* (+721) 10/* */ < 1654226690 624873 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :`dowg password < 1654226693 316845 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :12452:2022-05-11 learn The password of the month is not a password, but a special phrase-guessing operation. \ 12450:2022-03-01 learn The password of the month is marching on. \ 12448:2022-02-02 learn The password of the month is decided with a non-terminating computation. \ 12445:2022-01-01 learn The password of the month is Caught-22 \ 12444:2022-01-01 learn The password of the month is Catch-22 \ 12432 < 1654226712 144657 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :There was no password of April? > 1654226741 986051 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gino14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97726&oldid=97725 5* 03Z Ling 5* (-135) 10/* */ > 1654226910 542202 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gino14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97727&oldid=97726 5* 03Z Ling 5* (+557) 10/* */ > 1654227072 388713 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gino14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97728&oldid=97727 5* 03Z Ling 5* (-491) 10/* */ > 1654227096 737176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gino14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97729&oldid=97728 5* 03Z Ling 5* (-8) 10/* */ > 1654227629 703670 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gino14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97730&oldid=97729 5* 03Z Ling 5* (+345) 10 > 1654228203 612800 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Masalt14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97731&oldid=97520 5* 03Masalt 5* (-2) 10/* Coming Soon */ < 1654228214 548463 :littlebobeep!~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo JOIN #esolangs alMalsamo :alMalsamo > 1654228243 593871 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Masalt14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97732&oldid=97731 5* 03Masalt 5* (+3) 10/* Coming Soon */ > 1654228447 897863 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=97733 5* 03Masalt 5* (+98) 10Created page with "{{stub}}{{WIP}} is an [[esoteric programming language]] made by [[User:Masalt]] in Python 3." > 1654228485 761712 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gino14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97734&oldid=97730 5* 03Z Ling 5* (+477) 10 > 1654228557 77653 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gino14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97735&oldid=97734 5* 03Z Ling 5* (+6) 10/* */ < 1654228644 271627 :monoxane6!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654228703 591914 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1654228704 157737 :monoxane6!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane > 1654228952 220210 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gino14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97736&oldid=97735 5* 03Z Ling 5* (-362) 10 > 1654229011 119331 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gino14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97737&oldid=97736 5* 03Z Ling 5* (+55) 10 < 1654229474 438355 :monoxane7!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654229594 924387 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1654229595 266769 :monoxane7!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane > 1654229608 66192 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gino14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97738&oldid=97737 5* 03Z Ling 5* (+183) 10 > 1654229706 270855 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gino14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97739&oldid=97738 5* 03Z Ling 5* (+61) 10/* */ > 1654229853 293850 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gino14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97740&oldid=97739 5* 03Z Ling 5* (+85) 10 < 1654229987 699658 :monoxane2!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654230007 320798 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1654230007 544803 :monoxane2!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane < 1654230517 769593 :monoxane2!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654230666 296503 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1654230666 488935 :monoxane2!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane < 1654231240 817329 :monoxane9!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654231355 597613 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1654231356 217232 :monoxane9!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane < 1654232770 210397 :monoxane5!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654232841 519680 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1654232841 933430 :monoxane5!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane < 1654233200 302425 :monoxane9!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654233251 930524 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1654233252 243287 :monoxane9!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane < 1654235201 94285 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1654235258 308368 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane > 1654235386 938618 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gino14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97741&oldid=97740 5* 03Z Ling 5* (-59) 10/* */ < 1654235490 249069 :monoxane0!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane > 1654235533 900520 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gino14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97742&oldid=97741 5* 03Z Ling 5* (-14) 10 < 1654235606 124793 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds > 1654235641 255055 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Z Ling14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=97743 5* 03Z Ling 5* (+0) 10Created blank page < 1654235725 240038 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654235804 930144 :monoxane0!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1654236274 463680 :littlebobeep!~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1654238053 94742 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1654238141 45797 :monoxane6!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654238238 515846 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1654238239 8127 :monoxane6!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane < 1654238525 799013 :definitelya!~hexagon@host-79-53-208-179.retail.telecomitalia.it JOIN #esolangs * :WRATH < 1654239252 14456 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :lets talk about complexity < 1654239257 333349 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :exists L, K(x) > L < 1654239263 313236 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :no < 1654239272 259142 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :exists L, ~Prf[K(x) > L] < 1654239295 396666 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :exists L, forall x, ~Prf[K(,x) > L] < 1654239300 468704 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess this is the correct statement < 1654239311 77213 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :we want to prove it by contradiction < 1654239325 648640 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :so assume that for all L, exists x, Prf[K(,x) > L] < 1654239414 741659 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :why is this contradictory? < 1654239481 500076 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :we have to make a computer program that loops through all proofs in size order < 1654239548 120011 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :so this program will get us an x and a proof of K(x) > L < 1654239584 64811 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :the size of this program is O(1) + log(L) < 1654239649 634836 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :therefor K(x) = O(1) + log(L) which will be < L at some point < 1654239652 509106 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is a contradiction < 1654239942 749920 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :this makes sense < 1654240063 391763 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait there is an error here? < 1654240075 452859 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :we fixed x and increased L < 1654240081 325409 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the order of quantifiers does not allow that? < 1654240333 699728 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think you want L to be the size of your program. < 1654240452 578751 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :L is supposed to be a number < 1654240489 723120 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes. Make it be the size of the program (which also includes L, which takes log L bits). < 1654240506 931908 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm < 1654240521 677270 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :the program isn't "closed", it takes an input x < 1654240537 672412 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought it searches for x. < 1654240541 917062 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh yes you're right < 1654240561 966394 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :it outputs a pair, (x : Nat, prf : Prf[K(,x) > L]) < 1654240596 505711 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :so we can actually calculate such an L for real < 1654240610 594551 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :(smaller L may exist) < 1654240612 878516 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :the PDF suggested that L was completely unknown < 1654240631 598023 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :No, you can upper-bound it with the size of such a program. < 1654240706 383933 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should never say "upper-bound" or "lower-bound" when I can just say "bound" and people will assume I know which one I meant. < 1654240714 29484 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's just a coin flip, especially past midnight. < 1654240722 970592 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :very good < 1654240735 301762 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :now there is an interesting point next < 1654240753 534678 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :we cannot prove any K(x) > L < 1654240767 946887 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :but there is a reasonable argument that K(x) > L is actually true for some x's < 1654240786 506704 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Of course, it's true for almost all xs. < 1654240804 665036 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is interesting, because i remember people making a big fuss about how the godel sentence was true - and i was always extremely suspicious of that < 1654240827 970805 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :it seemed a bit abstract, and the reasoning a bit vague < 1654240860 552978 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, how do you feel about the following: "river can't agree with this sentence" < 1654240974 26961 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually I don't understand why K(x) > L is true < 1654240985 46203 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :its something to do with 2^L < 1654241059 473768 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right, it's the pigeonhole argument about compression. < 1654241092 859100 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm < 1654241117 60267 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :K(x) can be read as 'the best we can compress x' < 1654241130 490060 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh okay < 1654241170 441349 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :There are only about 2^L programs shorter than L. Each one of them emits one string if it halts. That's a finite set of strings. < 1654241187 576771 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's exponentially many strings, and compression can be arbitrarily good.. but the problem is there's only so many "short" strings for someone to be compressed into < 1654241191 272667 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :So all the other strings out there require bigger programs (since certainly every string has a program that prints it). < 1654241201 172929 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :ahh nice explanation < 1654241231 197023 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :that shows us that for every L, there does exist an x such that K(x) > L < 1654241239 994621 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :but we proved that we cannot prove this for large enough L < 1654241246 286132 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :this seems like a contradiction? < 1654241256 97471 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :we proved that we can't prove something.. then we proved it < 1654241257 264750 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :We can't prove it for any specific string. < 1654241270 585588 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh interesting < 1654241274 64843 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see! < 1654241283 445717 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :is that at all similar to omega consistency? < 1654241301 69005 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you see a big random-looking string, bigger than L, you might say "you can't do much better than just print(s) to generate this string, it's basically incompressible". < 1654241309 661647 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :But then maybe you can find out that it was actually generated by a small program. < 1654241310 939696 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah < 1654241335 153409 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :if the string is really big it's literally *impossible* to prove that it was generate by a short program < 1654241343 818403 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's really surprising < 1654241362 962400 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :short program is wrong < 1654241373 700738 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :let's call a program with size > L , a big program < 1654241374 350595 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Impossible to prove that it wasn't. < 1654241388 233698 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :if the string is really big it's literally *impossible* to prove that it needs to be generated by a big program < 1654241399 407117 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's less shocking, but still surprising < 1654241420 344397 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you have a small program that generates it, the proof is just "run this program for k steps". < 1654241432 207220 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :to prove that something needs to be generated by a big program, you need to show that it cannot be generated by all ~2^n smaller programs < 1654241440 259764 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, I don't think this is omega-consistency. < 1654241444 735520 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :and 2^n is basically infinity? < 1654241477 55005 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, the issue is the halting problem. < 1654241494 517755 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can run all those programs, and some of them will halt quickly, and some will halt after a long time, and some will never halt. < 1654241503 46231 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :And you can't tell the latter two apart. < 1654241536 829117 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah < 1654241544 938070 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :so there's some scary programs in there < 1654241559 256517 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :ones that do not halt < 1654241563 818569 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :but cannot be proven to not halt < 1654241592 195111 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, the ones that don't halt may not be the ones to be scared of. < 1654241601 385796 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh! < 1654241606 511579 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :How small do you think the smallest program that can trick you is? < 1654241619 877862 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably smaller than i'd expect < 1654241641 848089 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :3 bytes of x86-64 was enough for me. < 1654241646 188453 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow! < 1654241658 157030 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :what did it do? < 1654241673 705394 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Someone here asked about 3-byte sequences to set a register to -1. < 1654241688 638862 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :So I did a brute-force search over all 256^3 sequences. < 1654241709 36754 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :And there were a bunch of surprising things, like programs cheating in various ways. < 1654241727 453886 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Managing to return success for the test even though they didn't actually set the register to -1.) < 1654241752 741007 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :There were all sorts of weird crashes, the thing forking itself in ways I was trying to prevent and failed, all sorts of things. < 1654241808 77494 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's amazing < 1654241820 635817 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :I always wanted to run a survey for termination proofs for all short programs < 1654241825 760201 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :with the aim of finding hard ones to prove < 1654241834 919782 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should write it up, it was pretty good. < 1654241842 920018 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :i would love to read about it! < 1654241858 345361 :monoxane0!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654241992 823824 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1654241993 72323 :monoxane0!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane < 1654242184 680962 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :What's this PDF? < 1654242494 713047 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :http://www.ams.org/notices/201011/rtx101101454p.pdf < 1654242505 400328 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :so far we discussed the 1st incompleteness theorem < 1654242518 998730 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :the 2nd theorem comes from an adaptation of the surprise examination paradox < 1654243355 316806 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm < 1654244075 30595 :monoxane3!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654244192 86035 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1654244192 472505 :monoxane3!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane < 1654245554 718695 :monoxane8!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654245596 829094 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1654245597 391226 :monoxane8!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane > 1654248862 167206 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gino14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97744&oldid=97742 5* 03Z Ling 5* (+72) 10 > 1654249005 306504 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gino14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97745&oldid=97744 5* 03Z Ling 5* (+42) 10 > 1654250330 857946 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07OISC:314]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97746&oldid=96056 5* 03McChuck 5* (+18) 10 > 1654250409 109978 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07OISC:2bis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97747&oldid=96062 5* 03McChuck 5* (+18) 10 > 1654250785 521287 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07OISC:2bis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97748&oldid=97747 5* 03McChuck 5* (+1) 10/* Summary */ < 1654250863 580659 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown > 1654250912 521199 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07OISC:2bis14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97749&oldid=97748 5* 03McChuck 5* (+16) 10/* Summary */ < 1654254036 624110 :monoxane7!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654254102 471667 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1654254102 798828 :monoxane7!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane < 1654255105 43720 :littlebobeep!~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo JOIN #esolangs alMalsamo :alMalsamo < 1654255327 807316 :Hoolootwo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs * :ZNC - https://znc.in < 1654255534 389880 :littlebobeep!~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1654256227 493233 :littlebobeep!~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo JOIN #esolangs alMalsamo :alMalsamo < 1654257365 770288 :monoxane4!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654257498 412245 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1654257498 606862 :monoxane4!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane > 1654257999 920736 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gino14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97750&oldid=97745 5* 03Z Ling 5* (-13) 10/* */ < 1654258334 226955 :tech_exorcist!13203@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 JOIN #esolangs tech_exorcist :he/him - IT, EN < 1654259606 785404 :Thedarkb-Desktop!~Thedarkb@92.40.169.9.threembb.co.uk JOIN #esolangs Thedarkb :Ben < 1654260709 987657 :archenoth!~archenoth@209.205.65.31 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1654260734 589685 :archenoth!~archenoth@209.205.65.31 JOIN #esolangs Archenoth :archenoth > 1654261076 998900 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Self-interpreter14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=97751 5* 03Peter 5* (+104) 10Created page with "{{stub}} A '''self-interpreter''' is an [[interpreter]] written in the same language that it interprets." < 1654263244 455317 :littlebobeep!~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1654264325 14138 :Cale!~cale@cpef48e38ee8583-cm30b7d4b3fc20.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1654264364 841706 :Cale!~cale@cpef48e38ee8583-cm30b7d4b3fc20.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN #esolangs Cale :realname > 1654266349 67844 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bundle14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97752&oldid=97598 5* 03Lanksy 5* (+112) 10/* Commands */ < 1654266695 787724 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname > 1654267260 935148 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Self-interpreter14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97753&oldid=97751 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1423) 10Category, blurb. > 1654268233 771394 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97754&oldid=97715 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (-290) 10/* Updates */ > 1654268262 842936 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97755&oldid=97754 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+21) 10/* Updates */ > 1654269618 171406 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97756&oldid=97733 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+24) 10Add category > 1654269894 886975 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brain Ah Fuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97757&oldid=97719 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-19) 10Stub, categories < 1654272048 584422 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Note that I said that an assembly programmer can generate better code than a compiler, not will generate better code. While it is true that good assembly code is better than good compiled code, it is also true that bad assembly code is often much worse than bad compiled code; since the assembly programmer has so much control over the program, he or she has virtually unlimited opportunities to waste cycles and bytes. The sword cuts both ways, and good assembly < 1654272048 808514 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :code requires more, not less, forethought and planning than good code written in a high-level language." > 1654272266 686995 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97758&oldid=97755 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+1269) 10/* Design Goals: Why Use BunnyBell? */ > 1654272335 249340 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97759&oldid=97758 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (-21) 10/* Design Goals: Why Use BunnyBell? */ > 1654272360 639974 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97760&oldid=97759 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (-11) 10/* Design Goals: Why Use BunnyBell? */ > 1654272389 407522 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97761&oldid=97760 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+10) 10/* Design Goals: Why Use BunnyBell? */ < 1654272519 248595 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: . o O ( And then the next CPU generation comes along and invalidates all the optimization choices you made. ) > 1654272575 846989 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97762&oldid=97761 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+2) 10/* Cat (Echo) */ > 1654272600 391582 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97763&oldid=97762 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (-259) 10/* Cat (Echo) */ < 1654272641 549399 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's not that the claim is false; it's hard to justify the effort for the increasingly meager gains from diving into assembly, except when the compiler actually does something stupid. (register allocation is far from perfect; manual assembly code can sometimes avoid spills, and that can actually pay off. vectorization is also a weak spot but the first step in that case is to use intrinsics) > 1654272855 772357 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97764&oldid=97763 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+0) 10/* Error Codes */ < 1654273387 888826 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :this, yes. it's worth to understand how the CPU works, especially the cache hierarchy, and all the basics before that, if you want to write good high-level code, but you very rarely have to write assembly code instead of telling the compiler the right hints. > 1654273447 989461 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97765&oldid=97701 5* 03Tux1 5* (+1859) 10 > 1654273796 49675 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97766&oldid=97765 5* 03Tux1 5* (+184) 10 < 1654273804 464213 :littlebobeep!~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo JOIN #esolangs alMalsamo :alMalsamo < 1654274854 440639 :littlebobeep!~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1654275842 507417 :littlebobeep!~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo JOIN #esolangs alMalsamo :alMalsamo < 1654276114 446094 :littlebobeep!~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds > 1654276975 617594 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97767&oldid=97764 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+2421) 10/* Proof by Translation to bf */ > 1654277366 27875 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97768&oldid=97767 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+337) 10/* Algorithm */ < 1654277380 503903 :littlebobeep!~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo JOIN #esolangs alMalsamo :alMalsamo > 1654277404 877578 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97769&oldid=97768 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+6) 10/* =Bell */ > 1654277418 240532 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Self-interpreter14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97770&oldid=97753 5* 03Peter 5* (-10) 10 > 1654277444 827263 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97771&oldid=97769 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+2) 10/* Address */ > 1654277464 87119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97772&oldid=97771 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (-1) 10/* Index */ > 1654277620 75914 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97773&oldid=97772 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+99) 10/* Bug */ > 1654277641 274916 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97774&oldid=97773 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+2) 10/* Bug */ > 1654277731 325588 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97775&oldid=97774 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (-190) 10/* Stack Overflow */ > 1654277808 435372 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97776&oldid=97775 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+186) 10/* Proof by Translation to bf */ > 1654277878 301292 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97777&oldid=97776 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+4) 10/* Bug */ > 1654277934 580337 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97778&oldid=97777 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (-1) 10/* Comment */ > 1654277988 716217 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zetta14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=97779 5* 03Masalt 5* (+145) 10Created page with "{{stub}} {{WIP}} Zetta is an awful [[brainf***]] derivative. ==[[Popular problem|Examples]]== ===[[Hello World]]=== Hello World[<]>,,,,,,,,,,," > 1654278813 936201 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97780&oldid=97778 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+414) 10/* Bell */ > 1654278838 876527 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97781&oldid=97780 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+2) 10/* Bell */ > 1654278970 455082 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97782&oldid=97781 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+108) 10/* EBNF */ > 1654279107 152153 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97783&oldid=97782 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+83) 10/* Stack Overflow */ < 1654279997 802219 :Thedarkb-Desktop!~Thedarkb@92.40.169.9.threembb.co.uk QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1654280016 581270 :Thedarkb-Desktop!~Thedarkb@92.40.169.10.threembb.co.uk JOIN #esolangs Thedarkb :Ben < 1654280164 374425 :littlebobeep!~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1654280650 449275 :littlebobeep!~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo JOIN #esolangs alMalsamo :alMalsamo > 1654280772 542376 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97784&oldid=97783 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+71) 10/* Call */ > 1654281067 359877 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97785&oldid=97784 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+286) 10/* Heap */ < 1654281167 808672 :monoxane6!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654281199 590781 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1654281200 29868 :monoxane6!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane > 1654281386 753608 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zetta14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97786&oldid=97779 5* 03Masalt 5* (+117) 10 > 1654281430 498142 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Masalt14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97787&oldid=97732 5* 03Masalt 5* (+11) 10/* Languages */ > 1654281511 797443 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97788&oldid=97785 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+184) 10/* Error */ < 1654281729 574938 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1654281753 68665 :monoxane9!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane > 1654282463 423644 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97789&oldid=97788 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+19) 10/* Error */ < 1654282735 15512 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane > 1654282738 299920 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97790&oldid=97789 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+245) 10/* Stack */ > 1654282830 470751 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97791&oldid=97790 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+57) 10/* Function */ < 1654282880 768290 :monoxane9!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds > 1654283026 31274 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zetta14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97792&oldid=97786 5* 03Masalt 5* (-8) 10 < 1654283851 955732 :vyv!~vyv@bras-vprn-nrbaon0452w-lp130-15-76-68-19-157.dsl.bell.ca JOIN #esolangs vyv :vyv verver > 1654284315 928877 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Masalt14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97793&oldid=97787 5* 03Masalt 5* (-1) 10/* Coming Soon */ < 1654285405 23835 :monoxane1!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654285450 752918 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1654285451 66298 :monoxane1!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane > 1654285665 679912 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DONT YOU LECTURE ME WITH YOUR THIRTY DOLLAR LANGUAGE14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=97794 5* 03Masalt 5* (+378) 10Created page with "DONT YOU LECTURE ME WITH YOUR THIRTY DOLLAR LANGUAGE is a language made by [[User:Masalt]] in Python 3. ==[[Popular problem|Example Programs]] ===[[Hello World]]=== DONT YOU..." > 1654285678 876983 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DONT YOU LECTURE ME WITH YOUR THIRTY DOLLAR LANGUAGE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97795&oldid=97794 5* 03Masalt 5* (+2) 10 > 1654285708 683670 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DONT YOU LECTURE ME WITH YOUR THIRTY DOLLAR LANGUAGE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97796&oldid=97795 5* 03Masalt 5* (+17) 10 > 1654285779 489482 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97797&oldid=97791 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+379) 10/* ASCII Table */ < 1654286442 230290 :vyv!~vyv@bras-vprn-nrbaon0452w-lp130-15-76-68-19-157.dsl.bell.ca QUIT :Quit: Konversation terminated! > 1654287032 183086 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97798&oldid=97797 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (-11) 10/* Syntax */ < 1654287274 384344 :littlebobeep!~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds > 1654287484 640138 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97799&oldid=97798 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+218) 10/* Stack Overflow */ > 1654287533 87422 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DONT YOU LECTURE ME WITH YOUR THIRTY DOLLAR LANGUAGE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97800&oldid=97796 5* 03Masalt 5* (+16) 10/* Example Programs */ > 1654287543 35083 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DONT YOU LECTURE ME WITH YOUR THIRTY DOLLAR LANGUAGE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97801&oldid=97800 5* 03Masalt 5* (-1) 10/* Cat Program */ > 1654287851 907275 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DONT YOU LECTURE ME WITH YOUR THIRTY DOLLAR LANGUAGE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97802&oldid=97801 5* 03Masalt 5* (-6) 10/* Example Programs */ < 1654287898 437385 :monoxane5!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654287983 528477 :littlebobeep!~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo JOIN #esolangs alMalsamo :alMalsamo < 1654288004 774253 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1654288005 261937 :monoxane5!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane < 1654288139 418359 :Thedarkb-Desktop!~Thedarkb@92.40.169.10.threembb.co.uk QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1654288230 143803 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97803&oldid=97799 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+538) 10/* Bell */ < 1654288249 666996 :tech_exorcist!13203@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 QUIT :Quit: Disconnecting > 1654288371 103040 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97804&oldid=97803 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+39) 10/* Bug */ > 1654288390 675195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97805&oldid=97804 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (-1) 10/* Bug */ < 1654288564 423797 :littlebobeep!~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds > 1654288600 412106 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97806&oldid=97805 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+247) 10/* Heap */ > 1654288634 106898 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97807&oldid=97806 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (-1) 10/* Parent */ > 1654288751 354701 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97808&oldid=97807 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+93) 10/* Heap */ > 1654288754 628895 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97809&oldid=97766 5* 03Tux1 5* (+0) 10 > 1654288905 470178 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97810&oldid=97808 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+39) 10/* Integer */ < 1654289001 431476 :littlebobeep!~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo JOIN #esolangs alMalsamo :alMalsamo > 1654289007 719229 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97811&oldid=97810 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+94) 10/* Integer */ > 1654289236 75103 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97812&oldid=97811 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+25) 10/* Long */ < 1654289802 259449 :monoxane2!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654289847 210867 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1654289847 580163 :monoxane2!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane > 1654289943 81789 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DONT YOU LECTURE ME WITH YOUR THIRTY DOLLAR LANGUAGE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97813&oldid=97802 5* 03Masalt 5* (+107) 10/* Example Programs */ > 1654290515 251220 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97814&oldid=97812 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+10) 10/* Updates */ > 1654290540 892990 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brain Ah Fuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97815&oldid=97757 5* 03Xarthan 5* (+475) 10i went to bed > 1654290566 481951 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brain Ah Fuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97816&oldid=97815 5* 03Xarthan 5* (+0) 10error fixed > 1654290607 240538 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97817&oldid=97814 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (-87) 10/* Bell */ < 1654290696 653298 :monoxane3!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654290751 984754 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1654290752 266264 :monoxane3!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane < 1654291224 771310 :monoxane8!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654291311 340540 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1654291311 536436 :monoxane8!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane > 1654291638 228869 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RunR14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97818&oldid=94826 5* 03Stasoid 5* (+0) 10make hello world print a space instead of NUL < 1654292146 610910 :monoxane5!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654292215 605864 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1654292216 282878 :monoxane5!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane > 1654292545 444335 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RunR14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97819&oldid=97818 5* 03Stasoid 5* (-68) 10fix the spec to match actual behavior of the interpreter < 1654292757 697908 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1654292818 653760 :monoxane4!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654292949 297689 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1654292949 557410 :monoxane4!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane < 1654292951 111186 :definitelya!~hexagon@host-79-53-208-179.retail.telecomitalia.it QUIT :Quit: h < 1654293373 799834 :monoxane9!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane > 1654293453 201136 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:RunR14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97820&oldid=58849 5* 03Stasoid 5* (+184) 10 < 1654293495 380371 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1654293495 729515 :monoxane9!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane < 1654294333 107556 :monoxane6!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654294371 568290 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1654294372 183112 :monoxane6!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane > 1654294431 469803 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brain Ah Fuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97821&oldid=97816 5* 03Xarthan 5* (+236) 10instructions > 1654294546 355740 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07A?b.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97822&oldid=95620 5* 03Masalt 5* (+3) 10 > 1654294697 847292 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07A?b.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97823&oldid=97822 5* 03Masalt 5* (-2) 10 < 1654294767 326501 :monoxane3!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane > 1654294808 526034 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zetta14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97824&oldid=97792 5* 03Masalt 5* (+24) 10 < 1654294810 847878 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1654294811 38461 :monoxane3!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane < 1654294862 794755 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1654294868 857323 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs : Is C-INTERCAL capable of using the PEXT instruction of x86? ← yes, it is < 1654294924 707228 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :re: humans beating compilers, one big advantage for the humans is that they can change the meaning of the code when optimising, because they know it will be equivalent < 1654295004 140590 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :register spilling is such a weird topic on modern processors – they have easily enough registers but can run out of register *names*, so you spill the register just to have some way to refer to it > 1654295031 176927 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zetta14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97825&oldid=97824 5* 03Masalt 5* (+156) 10 < 1654295036 431433 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it seems so wasteful – perhaps a subset of memory addresses should be reserved to refer to registers beyond the normal 16 > 1654295063 412084 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zetta14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97826&oldid=97825 5* 03Masalt 5* (+17) 10 < 1654295073 723801 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that could even be made forwards-compatible by mapping the addresses > 1654295134 215376 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RunR14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97827&oldid=97819 5* 03Stasoid 5* (+55) 10/* External resources */ < 1654295155 969589 :monoxane3!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654295168 131568 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1654295168 547925 :monoxane3!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane > 1654295247 865266 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Self-interpreter14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97828&oldid=97770 5* 03Ais523 5* (+187) 10/* Folklore */ why a self-interpreter doesn't prove Turing-completeness > 1654295262 398565 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Bad14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=97829 5* 03Masalt 5* (+42) 10Created page with "The category of objectively bad languages." > 1654295363 27239 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10deleted "[[02Category:Bad10]]": unapproved category < 1654295378 43320 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: I'm not convinced that homoiconicity is required for an interpreter to be metacircular; for example, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Advance_The_Wheel! has a metacircular data pointer which is completely unrelated to the syntax < 1654295400 700275 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the exclamation mark is part of the link but some clients may treat it as separate, so the link may be broken) > 1654295422 123634 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Advance The Wheel14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=97830 5* 03Ais523 5* (+32) 10punct redir < 1654295427 134611 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fixed the link :-) < 1654295522 278599 :Corbin!~Corbin@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I didn't mean to take a controversial stance. Feel free to change it. < 1654295543 558799 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: I don't think it is necessarily controversial – this is a topic that I'm not sure I fully understand myself < 1654295591 382919 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I guess the way I'm thinking about this is, in an interpreter, each element of the program being interpreted has to be represented as something in the interpreting program < 1654295627 128071 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. in the ATW! self-interpreter, the wheel position is represented as the instruction pointer, the instruction pointer and program are represented as queue 1, the data pointer is represented as the data pointer < 1654295638 593184 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the case of something being represented as itself is an interesting special case < 1654295674 616773 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :metacircularity is related to this special case, but I'm not sure that it's the same > 1654295780 193253 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brain Ah Fuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97831&oldid=97821 5* 03Xarthan 5* (+550) 10Hello, world! and some instructions clarifications and punctuations > 1654295849 297928 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brain Ah Fuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97832&oldid=97831 5* 03Xarthan 5* (-8) 10oops < 1654295855 762699 :Hoolootwo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in < 1654295933 169046 :monoxane6!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654295976 253686 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs hooloovoo :ZNC - https://znc.in < 1654295990 866654 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1654295991 170027 :monoxane6!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane < 1654296066 386150 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually I'm not convinced that anyone knows what metacircularity actually is > 1654296087 121954 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brain Ah Fuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97833&oldid=97832 5* 03Xarthan 5* (-12) 10added wip < 1654296100 341426 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are some things which are clearly metacircular, but there's a lot of grey area too and it's unclear where the boundaries of the definition are < 1654296220 92733 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, maybe ATW! actually is homoiconic? in that the interpreter operates on source code directly, it doesn't parse it at all (because the source format is so simple that it doesn't need parsing) < 1654296400 119103 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I read that GCC has some built-in functions that use PEXT and other instructions if a flag is specified; how can you detect those flags by preprocessor? < 1654296462 60436 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: Intel and AMD recommend looking for the flag in question at runtime, rather than compile time – there is a CPU instruction to return the flags > 1654296486 71126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97834&oldid=97817 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+181) 10/* Syntax */ < 1654296531 723867 :monoxane1!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654296539 235520 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there don't seem to be any predefined #defines with GNU cpp that lists them > 1654296542 523254 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97835&oldid=97834 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+77) 10/* Turing Complete */ < 1654296617 457428 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's an attribute to assume certain flags when compiling a function < 1654296640 1277 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1654296640 417001 :monoxane1!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane < 1654296651 83425 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I guess the issue is that you're supposed to tell gcc whether it's allowed to use instructions like PEXT and PDEP, rather than it telling you, as it's you rather than it that knows which processors might run the resulting executable < 1654296886 285811 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, although you might want to put in your own optimizations that use such instructions if they are enabled, especially if you want to make it compatible with older versions of the compiler, or other target computers which might not have such instructions, etc. < 1654296968 738375 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Rust has a conditional compliation attribute (similar to a preprocessor directive) to compile something only if certain instructions are enabled – it would make sense for GNU C to have one too, but I haven't been able to find it > 1654297008 900730 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97836&oldid=97690 5* 03Masalt 5* (+34) 10 < 1654297030 52531 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: aha, there's __builtin_cpu_supports < 1654297052 894240 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so in this case, it'd be __builtin_cpu_supports("bmi2") < 1654297054 781225 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :" perhaps a subset of memory addresses should be reserved to refer to registers beyond the normal 16" => how would that be different from the current situation where you use addresses relative to the stack pointer for extra temporary values, since accessing those has a compact encoding with a 1-byte offset, and better and better optimizations in the cpu for accessing them? < 1654297065 889731 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, that's a runtime detection, rather than compile-time, it returns the correct value for the actual processor < 1654297077 833084 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it needs to be used in an if statement rather than by the preprocessor < 1654297093 503695 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it wouldn't actually youch memory < 1654297096 320533 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* touch < 1654297111 411874 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that means that you aren't tying up memory read/write ports < 1654297126 219683 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :The other way, then, would be that you will have to add them by yourself (by using -D), but this isn't as good since it cannot be used e.g. if you specify to target the same computer that it is being compiled on automatically. < 1654297180 129100 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes < 1654297195 140870 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there does seem to be a use case for this, but either gcc doesn't have a way to do it, or I can't find it < 1654297204 462970 :littlebobeep!~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1654297370 359014 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :" actually I'm not convinced that anyone knows what metacircularity actually is" => Douglas Hofstadter might know; Raymond Smullyan probably did know but he passed away in 2017 < 1654297407 211572 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or maybe they knew why you can't draw a boundary < 1654297455 130445 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :something I've been thinking about recently: suppose you have a self-interpreter with extensions, i.e. it interprets the language it's written in plus a few extra custom commands < 1654297478 377184 :monoxane9!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654297491 432724 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if parts of the design are table-driven rather than hard-coded, you can add commands to change those tables < 1654297500 508278 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it's easy to add commands that change the program being interpreted > 1654297518 662337 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97837&oldid=97835 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+96) 10/* Comment */ < 1654297539 849384 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this gives you a slightly extended version of the language, and an intepreter for it < 1654297566 71292 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now, suppose you're writing a self-interpreter (or extended-self-interpreter) in that slightly extended version of the language, i.e. we're now two levels of self-interpreters deep > 1654297594 218392 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97838&oldid=97837 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+41) 10/* Error */ < 1654297603 850911 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this can be easily and efficiently implemented simply by reprogramming the running interpreter to have new commands (if necessary) and to be running a new program, and you end up with a self-interpreter with eigenratio 1 < 1654297607 496914 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1654297607 739053 :monoxane9!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane < 1654297646 715454 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the obvious question in the context of this conversation (and what prompted me to think about this again) is "is this metacircularity?" > 1654297840 885677 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Self-interpreter14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97839&oldid=97828 5* 03Ais523 5* (+0) 10/* Folklore */ typo fix < 1654297849 794885 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :" that means that you aren't tying up memory read/write ports" => I think very new CPUs can optimize it to not tie up memory read ports, if it notices while decoding that you're referencing the same offset and index register, without even knowing the address. it will tie up a memory write port, but generally only in the L1 cache because the top of the stack will be there, and that usually won't < 1654297855 850022 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cause a delay unless you do a crazy amount of writes in a short time. > 1654297868 378049 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97840&oldid=97838 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+56) 10/* Stack */ < 1654297936 743110 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it's specifically AMD Zen 2 that could do that, and that's not the newest version < 1654297949 625015 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the feature was removed for Zen 3, and IIRC Intel processors have never been able to do that > 1654297953 651797 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97841&oldid=97840 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+32) 10/* Function */ < 1654297975 826299 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also the L1 write limit is normally 1 write per cycle, which seems quite plausible to hit in some types of code < 1654298009 388099 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(AMD Zen 3 can run 6 instructions per CPU cycle, and having more than ⅙ of the instructions do memory writes doesn't seem that unlikely) > 1654298015 216670 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97842&oldid=97841 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+48) 10/* Integer */ < 1654298018 721189 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :however, if you are ok with using such a new cpu (and I presume you have to be if you're calling for a new feature) then you can also use 32 64-bit ZMM registers, though moving into them is of course much more expensive to encode than just a stack ref'ce < 1654298024 337935 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a467-ccd6-1-1c7c-a1a3-57e2-b549.fixed6.kpn.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1654298037 982346 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a467-ccd6-1-dc37-8e05-e9-82f4.fixed6.kpn.net JOIN #esolangs sprout :sprout < 1654298068 124172 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"(AMD Zen 3 can run 6 instructions per CPU cycle," => unlikely if those are referencing memory arguments < 1654298093 927558 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: indeed, there are other limits too < 1654298107 954682 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :though I guess that's exactly the problem that you're saying < 1654298108 598161 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm < 1654298128 535469 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well I don't know really < 1654298158 409155 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in practice, 16 registers (well, 15 – you normally don't want to mess with %rsp) usually seem to be enough > 1654298193 749336 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97843&oldid=97842 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+42) 10/* Long */ < 1654298195 376660 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the main exceptions are code with lots of nested function calls, but our existing ABIs force registers to be allocated inefficiently across functions anyway < 1654298224 752443 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and of course, recursive code has no option but to spill registers < 1654298242 435993 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I realised a while ago that a function call is, in effect, just a spill of %rip) > 1654298407 486533 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97844&oldid=97843 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+44) 10/* Data Type */ < 1654298490 711237 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, stupid question, if you're doing vector integer calls on AVX, and you're running low on the 16 XMM register, is there a way to temporarily store or retrieve two 16-bit XMM values in a YMM register, similarly to how you can use an XMM to temporarily store two 64-bit general register values in an XMM reg with PINSRQ/PEXTRQ, only this time your XMM and YMM regs overlap? < 1654298559 603106 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm pretty sure there's an instruction to move an XMM to the top half of a YMM, but if your program is almost entirely AVX, you shouldn't use it > 1654298564 430678 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BunnyBell Documentation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=97845&oldid=97844 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+41) 10/* Error */ < 1654298593 286203 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, * almost entirely XMM < 1654298600 429630 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: it's entirely AVX because mixing SSE2 and AVX instructions in optimized code can be a bad idea due to the SSE2 instructions having to keep the top half of YMM regs < 1654298633 893635 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :using the YMM registers switches the processor over to an alternative mode where it runs YMM-sized instructions more quickly but all other instructions more slowly < 1654298641 150702 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you just use the AVX equivalents of all the SSE2 instructions. all or almost all the instructions have an AVX encoding so this isn't a problem. < 1654298668 35968 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is independent of the alternative modes for the top half of YMM registers being dirty < 1654298683 405251 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh < 1654298697 78772 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but then how are you supposed to use YMM at all on AVX cpus? < 1654298716 10651 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :AVX has YMM-sized instructions for a lot of the basic functionality < 1654298721 281088 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and AVX2 added a lot more) < 1654298729 574324 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, AVX2 probably solves this < 1654298733 674681 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the intention is to use them for, e.g., big loops that are just doing simple additions on arrays < 1654298753 731818 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the processor switches over to a mode where it can add more numbers at once, but at the cost of performance elsewhere in the processor < 1654298765 884682 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you can't easily mix 16-bit vectors and 32-bit vectors, even if you encode everything in AVX or AVX2? why? < 1654298766 937814 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :AVX-512 is even more extreme – the processor has to reduce its clock speed to avoid overheating < 1654298769 934031 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :this sounds odd < 1654298800 706947 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's basically to do with heat dissipation, the less of the vector unit you use, the faster you can run without heating issues < 1654298813 722756 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm < 1654298825 526587 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it makes sense < 1654298840 562335 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :basically all the YMM instructions can be implemented by desugaring them into two XMM instructions (with hidden programmer-inaccessible annotations to use the top half of the XMM register) < 1654298857 808688 :monoxane9!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654298860 52378 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's what processors do if they can't use the full vector unit (either because they're too hot or because they don't have a YMM-wide vector unit) < 1654298894 92511 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1654298894 439478 :monoxane9!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane < 1654298896 310773 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but if the processor sees YMM instructions, it actively tries to cool itself down so that the whole unit is usable, that means it needs to focus more on efficiency rather than speed for the other instructions it uses < 1654298937 396174 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it makes sense that if you can use 32-byte vectors then you should use them < 1654298960 573602 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :on AVX2 cpus like this one in my new computer < 1654298964 821811 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, this is why it's usually a bad idea to mix vector sizes – the optimal processor configuration for different sizes is different < 1654298985 925804 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :makes sense, < 1654299028 169727 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but do I understand correctly that if I am mixing the sizes, and I'm really only using 16 bytes of a 32-byte vector, then it's not worse too use a 16-byte but AVX-encoded instruction than to use a 32-byte instruction but then discard half of the result, right? < 1654299058 18344 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's just that everything will run in a slower 32-byte vector core < 1654299060 503309 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, XMM instructions will run just fine when mixed with YMM instructions < 1654299097 406930 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they could be slower than XMM instructions that aren't mixed, but won't be slower than YMM instructions < 1654299111 380579 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok < 1654299138 841604 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this is assuming that you're using the zero-extending versions, to avoid false dependencies) < 1654299173 590438 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, zero-extending from XMM to YMM is what the AVX encoding as opposed to SSE2 encoding means < 1654299179 411962 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :they have a fancier name... < 1654299200 535889 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :VEX for the AVX encoding I think < 1654299209 661673 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes < 1654299216 102517 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :VEX is the name of the prefix byte < 1654299240 740664 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :AVX-512 has its own new prefix byte, EVEX, and you can also EVEX-encode SSE and AVX instructions < 1654299272 481188 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :VEX encoding is at most one byte longer than SSE encoding – normally it's the same length or even shorter < 1654299277 327066 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and EVEX is one byte longer than VEX < 1654299281 939333 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or sometimes two < 1654299352 63971 :monoxane4!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654299443 408891 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :are you sure? I thought that the VEX encoding can be one byte shorter than the SSE2 encoding in some cases, where the SSE2 encoding needs three prefix bytes (F0, a rex prefix, and an OS/REPNE/REP prefix, I don't know the correct order) whereas the VEX can need just two bytes of prefix < 1654299453 565726 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1654299454 158687 :monoxane4!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane < 1654299454 609988 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh right, that's what you said < 1654299462 756175 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"normally it's the same length or even shorter" < 1654299466 671377 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok < 1654299565 138646 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've actually pondered the merits of a compiler that generates SIMD versions of functions, so that they can be used in vectorized loops without inlining < 1654299596 520504 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably the implementation strategy is to generate SIMD by default, and then if it turns out that only a single "thread" is needed, to deSIMDify it by replacing the vector instructions with scalar instructions < 1654299616 475288 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this would require using scatter/gather instructions a *lot*, though, so it might only be efficient on Intel < 1654300020 223382 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-13.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, now I'm looking at the intel manual and somewhat confused by all these instruction encodings. which I suppose is normal, they are confusing. < 1654300435 304237 :monoxane2!~monoxane@user/monoxane JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1654300450 765756 :monoxane!~monoxane@user/monoxane QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1654300451 67000 :monoxane2!~monoxane@user/monoxane NICK :monoxane