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00:06:19 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101112&oldid=101098 * PixelatedStarfish * (+386) /* Structs: Defining a Data Type */
00:06:53 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101113&oldid=101112 * PixelatedStarfish * (-53) /* Structs: Defining a Data Type */
00:18:04 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101114&oldid=101113 * PixelatedStarfish * (+392) /* Structs: Defining a Data Type */
00:20:57 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101115&oldid=101114 * PixelatedStarfish * (+71) /* Structs: Defining a Data Type */
00:22:23 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101116&oldid=101115 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2) /* Structs: Defining a Data Type */
00:23:34 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101117&oldid=101116 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Structs: Defining a Data Type */
00:52:36 <esolangs> [[DDDD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101118&oldid=85634 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+131) Link to Underload, categorise
00:52:47 <esolangs> [[DDDD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101119&oldid=101118 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* Computational class */ fix
00:54:05 <esolangs> [[PokeType]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101120&oldid=89467 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-27) /* Compile */ Remove nonexistent category
00:54:50 <esolangs> [[PokeType]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101121&oldid=101120 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+57) /* Compile */ Categories
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01:30:26 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101122&oldid=101117 * PixelatedStarfish * (+50) /* Structs: Defining a Data Type */
01:34:51 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101123&oldid=101122 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Structs: Defining a Data Type */
01:36:00 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101124&oldid=101123 * PixelatedStarfish * (-76) /* Structs: Defining a Data Type */
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01:48:25 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101125&oldid=101124 * PixelatedStarfish * (+187) /* Structs: Defining a Data Type */
01:49:07 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101126&oldid=101125 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Structs: Defining a Data Type */
01:54:57 <esolangs> [[Tome]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101127&oldid=53946 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+56) Stub, update link, categories
01:58:13 <esolangs> [[Protogen]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=101128 * Joseppi1 * (+6276) Made the page
02:00:15 <esolangs> [[Protogen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101129&oldid=101128 * Joseppi1 * (-13) Removed the duplicate title
02:11:33 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101130&oldid=101016 * Joseppi1 * (+15) Added Protogen
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04:38:13 <esolangs> [[Talk:Ook!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101131&oldid=54484 * LEOMOK * (+77) /* extra instruction idea */ new section
04:46:24 <esolangs> [[Multeq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101132&oldid=100655 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-1)
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08:12:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Chriso345 * New user account
08:17:51 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101133&oldid=101110 * Chriso345 * (+162) my introduction
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11:12:02 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101134&oldid=99516 * MathigonDec * (+1282) Pixel pattern
11:51:24 <esolangs> [[8BallScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101135&oldid=101102 * Gears * (+51)
11:55:02 <b_jonas> hehe, nice article title about a production hardware that makes it sound like esoteric "http://www.righto.com/2020/09/inside-hp-nanoprocessor-high-speed.html" "Inside the HP Nanoprocessor: a high-speed processor that can't even add"
12:03:06 <b_jonas> hehe "Inconveniently, the digital watch chip wasn't designed for computer control: it generated 7-segment signals to drive an LED, and it was set through three buttons. To read the time, the Nanoprocessor had to convert the 7-segment display outputs back into digits. And to set the time, the Nanoprocessor had to simulate the right sequence of button presses to advance through the digits."
12:03:42 <b_jonas> that is about the internals of a real time clock extension card to a desktop calculator
12:05:39 <b_jonas> it only reads time that way once after power on by the way, the clock chip is used to keep time while powered down using a battery, but afterwards the processor of the card keeps the time in itself and increments it to keep the time
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12:17:05 <b_jonas> the processor apparently has an 8-bit accumulator plus carry flag, but 16 8-bit registers built in. it indeed has no add or subtract instructions, but this is to be taken with the caveat that it has add 1, subtract 1, various comparisons (which compare either the accumulator with register 0 or with constant 0), and unsigned left and right shifts (accumulator only, without carry)
12:18:30 <b_jonas> also it is built to not interface with memory, just compute everything in registers with the program in a ROM
12:19:10 <b_jonas> but at least can use lookup tables or jump tables in ROM
12:19:39 <b_jonas> so it's clearly made to control peripherials rather than to be used as a central processor in a computer
12:20:24 <int-e> hmmm 1974.
12:25:40 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, that's part of why they needed a cheap processor chip, the 6502 didn't exist yet
12:26:12 <b_jonas> though the domain doesn't really match with the 6502, since this is a single chip design usable without RAM and DRAM refresh logic
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12:57:38 <fizzie> Something I learned the other day: there are microcontrollers (TMS1000?) that use a LFSR for "incrementing" their program counter, because it's cheaper than adding 1.
12:57:44 <fizzie> A suitably chosen N-bit LFSR has a period of 2**N - 1, after all. Of course it means that the sequence "looks random", but the assembler just uses the same order when it's putting the instructions in the ROM, so it all works out.
12:58:55 <int-e> fizzie: if you like that you'll also like the addressing logic in oerjan's Unlambda interpreter in Intercal
12:59:03 <int-e> (that uses the same trick)
14:24:56 <esolangs> [[Protogen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101136&oldid=101129 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+92) Use pre tags, categories
14:30:27 <esolangs> [[8BallScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101137&oldid=101135 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) Remove redlink, add categories
14:31:13 <esolangs> [[8BallScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101138&oldid=101137 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) Link
14:31:54 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101139&oldid=101130 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* Non-alphabetic */ add
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14:44:09 <esolangs> [[Smalllang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101140&oldid=96924 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) Category
14:53:35 <esolangs> [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101141&oldid=99137 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-12) /* Self BCT */ Update link
14:54:42 <esolangs> [[Refract]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101142&oldid=43915 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+89) /* External resources */ Categories
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15:35:12 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101143&oldid=101126 * PixelatedStarfish * (+38) /* Truth Machine */
15:46:30 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101144&oldid=101143 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* General Palettes */
15:47:35 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101145&oldid=101144 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Adapted Palettes */
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15:49:10 <Guest8369> What is this?
15:49:34 <Guest8369> 'guess nobody is here.
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15:50:13 <int-e> Zoom!
15:53:03 <esolangs> [[User:Nmcassa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101146&oldid=101035 * Nmcassa * (+16)
15:59:38 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101147&oldid=101145 * PixelatedStarfish * (+29) /* Colors */
16:01:59 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101148&oldid=101147 * PixelatedStarfish * (+27) /* Colors */
16:03:48 <esolangs> [[Brainspin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=101149 * Nmcassa * (+1233) Created page with "Brainspin is a variant of [[brainfuck]] where there are only three spaces of memory and they are constantly being cycled through, designed by [[User:Nmcassa]] in [[2022]]. ==..."
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16:58:18 <esolangs> [[Protogen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101150&oldid=101136 * Joseppi1 * (+87) Credit
16:58:39 <esolangs> [[Protogen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101151&oldid=101150 * Joseppi1 * (-56)
17:17:11 <esolangs> [[User:Joseppi1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=101152 * Joseppi1 * (+172) Created page with "Hi, I'm Joseppi1. I'm not sure I'm doing this right, but I have some languages I made. Also, [https://github.com/Joseppi007 here]'s my GitHub. ==My Languages== [[Protogen]]"
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17:42:47 <esolangs> [[Alphabet letters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101153&oldid=100888 * Nmcassa * (+71)
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18:20:42 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101154&oldid=100177 * Gears * (+52)
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20:20:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * PhilipNaveen * New user account
21:09:15 <esolangs> [[Brainspin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101155&oldid=101149 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+113) Stub, fix link, add categories
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22:00:33 <zzo38> Is there file system with transactions involving multiple files and that file data can contain out-of-band links to other files?
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22:09:14 <b_jonas> [ 0.028*6
22:09:14 <j-bot> b_jonas: 0.168
22:10:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think Windows has support for making transactions involving multiple files, but I'm not sure
22:13:20 <sknebel> It has, but Microsoft has already deprecated that again (they recommend to avoid using it if possible and have stated it might be removed in future versions)
22:14:31 <zzo38> Is there the possibility in Linux, though?
22:17:16 <zzo38> Also, is there anything in the /proc filesystem which you can guarantee if it is the same process or not (e.g. by monotonic timestamps), by use of plain data (so that you do not need to have a file descriptor or anything like that)?
22:21:40 <sknebel> Not sure what you mean by the second question
22:22:50 <esolangs> [[Minimalbf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101156&oldid=101111 * Yes * (+43)
22:24:00 <esolangs> [[Minimalbf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=101157&oldid=101156 * Yes * (+58)
22:24:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know, I suspect that if the functionality for multi-file transactions exists on Linux then it would be specific to zfs or btrfs, so you should look there
22:25:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: for same process, yes, there was a 64-bit fork/clone counter in /proc, let me look up what its name was
22:28:09 <b_jonas> although your question is unclear so I think you aren't asking what I thought
22:30:04 <b_jonas> apparently the line starting with "processes " in /proc/stat , though I seem to remember it wasn't that
22:31:42 <zzo38> I mean for a specific process
22:32:22 <zzo38> That you can store the data elsewhere in the computer (even in a temporary file that will be deleted when the system is restarted) and be able to identify it
22:33:08 <sknebel> Ah, something you can check with "was I the process that wrote this data"?
22:33:18 <zzo38> Also, ZFS has a few problems one of which is that only Unicode file names are possible; ext4 does not require file names to be Unicode
22:34:23 <zzo38> sknebel: Yes, although not only that, but also to allow other processes to identify that the process that wrote that data is still currently running and what its process ID is (the last part is easy because you can just store the process ID, but process ID numbers can be reused)
22:36:06 <sknebel> Ah. Hm.
22:42:04 <b_jonas> zzo38: what I said helps doing that in a weak sense. save the fork count, get information about processes by using their pid, kill or do other similar actions with them, then read the fork count again. if the process count didn't change since you saved it then you can be sure that any pid that you've seen still refers to the same process, not some other process that happened to get the same pid
22:42:29 <b_jonas> if the fork count changed then you have to retry the transaction, and you may have killed the wrong process
22:44:40 <b_jonas> I think for a process, /proc also tells its start time, which lets you tell if it changed to another process with the same pid, but you can't really use that without a race condition
22:45:34 <zzo38> What if the current date/time setting of the system is changed, though? Then you should need monotonic timestamps in order to avoid that problem
22:48:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, the start time is stored as one of the monotonic timestamps
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22:50:40 <zzo38> Is the start time already monotonic? Is the time of the directory, or some file inside of the directory for the specific process, monotonic?
23:03:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: the mtime of directories, I don't think so
23:04:44 <zzo38> Does any data of a file within the directories do?
23:07:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think there is some data in the process directories, yes, but I'm not certain.
23:14:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think /proc/pid/auxv has a monotonic start timer, but only to precision of 1 seconds and possibly non-portable
23:14:58 <b_jonas> but there's probably some better one
23:15:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: ah, /proc/sys has a starttime field
23:24:03 <zzo38> But /proc/sys is not one of the files specific to each process like /proc/42/xyz or whatever
23:33:27 <zzo38> If you open a process directory by the open function, what effect will that have (if any) on the rest of the system (e.g. will it prevent the process ID number from being reused, or otherwise avoid any kind of race conditions; if so, does it depend what version of Linux you are using)? What if it is the current directory? (My attempt finds that if it is the current directory and the process terminates, then trying to use it is an error)
23:35:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: sorry, I'm stupid, I mean /proc/$pid/stat
23:36:06 <b_jonas> and I don't know the answer to those things about the /proc filesystem
23:40:01 <zzo38> OK
23:41:53 <zzo38> Some older programs such as vi (and also vim) and Heirloom-mailx have commands to use pipes with other programs (specified by the user), but most modern programs lack such features; why is that? I try to include such things in programs I write if it seems useful, though.
←2022-07-23 2022-07-24 2022-07-25→ ↑2022 ↑all