< 1663031431 914693 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In Computation: Finite and Infinite Machines Theorem 14.1-1 phrases the 2 reg machine as having two instructions (another, new set): inc_and_branch, dec_or_branch_if_zero < 1663031446 78142 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The next page p.258 remark incorrectly summarises that theorem's addition instruction as: $₁Iⱼ$₂ → $₁Iⱼ₊₁$₂ < 1663031453 561034 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it should be: $₁Iⱼ$₂ → $₁Iⱼ'$₂ i.e. The next instruction is j-prime (jump anywhere), not j+1 (go-to-next) < 1663031465 51580 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's subtle, but it's at literally the final summing up and tying it back to previous results remark of the 2reg machine proof, so being accurate is important. < 1663031591 345266 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I'm claiming Minsky got it wrong / oversimplified too, (at least a typographical error) in Computation: Finite and Infinite Machines on p.258. < 1663031786 60200 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Big claim, I'm interested to know if people here have access to the book and agree, or can point to something I'm missing. < 1663032054 15649 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not saying theorem 14.1-1 is wrong, that seems right with those very specific instruction. The subsequent remark tying it back to improve upon previous results on canonical systems is inaccurate though, at least in the notation used. < 1663032093 465943 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(instruction -> instructions) < 1663036353 927694 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663039325 732673 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Quit: impomatic < 1663039365 181570 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663039535 95675 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Client Quit < 1663039558 20433 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663041063 331037 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Quit: impomatic < 1663041083 358221 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663041334 774819 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Client Quit < 1663041356 667347 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663044138 184261 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Quit: impomatic < 1663044402 378891 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 QUIT :Quit: Client closed > 1663047076 11419 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!or14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103174&oldid=102849 5* 03Lon233bcc 5* (+4) 10 < 1663047823 556504 :nikcnaem!~nikcnaem@h-158-174-25-25.A147.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] nikcnaem < 1663048687 702048 :nikcnaem!~nikcnaem@h-158-174-25-25.A147.priv.bahnhof.se PART :#esolangs < 1663049169 392172 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1663050809 117532 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-17.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry what? < 1663050869 468498 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-17.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think you're misunderstanding something < 1663051382 555949 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 JOIN #esolangs salpynx :[https://web.libera.chat] salpynx < 1663051435 385503 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :TC Minsky machines with 3 or more registers have instructions: inc(r), decz(r, n) < 1663051473 936853 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :2 reg TC Minsky machines have instructions { inc(r), decz(r, n), go(n) }  OR { decz(r, n), incgo(r, n) } < 1663051537 921463 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A 2 reg Minsky machine with only the inc(r), decz(r, n) instructions is not TC, but that distinction doesn't seem to emphasised anywhere < 1663051612 253574 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, not that I've seen, and it seems to be a mistake which is frequently made. < 1663051725 62976 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-17.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: but what do those second instructions do and aren't those just assembly macro shortcuts? I don't understand what you mean by their name < 1663051860 507826 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry, there doesn't seem to be a standard notation for the instructions. I'm trying to stick to Minsky's descriptions, but he uses different notation at different points too < 1663051907 539779 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-17.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: are you sure it's not just a notation to increment a register multiple times in a single go, which you can compile to multiple instructions that increment a counter once (but you have to manage all the state labels)? < 1663051974 426859 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :inc(r) : Increase register r by one, and go to the next instruction.  decz(r, n) : if register r is 0, jump to instruction n, otherwise decrease register r by 1 , which I think is the standard way people think of MMs < 1663052000 195882 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-17.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in particular, I read the Aho, Ullman (1972) book, and I'm pretty sure that it gives a proof that two-counter Minsky machines are Turing-complete, because I'm still deliberately choosing to forget that proof, and all I'm remembering that in general it requires another level of exponential slowdown over the exponential slowdown you already have by using Minsky machines instead of machines with more than < 1663052006 171419 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-17.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :one symbol in the stack alphabets. < 1663052007 933869 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :go(n) is an unconditional jump, which lets the program go back < 1663052046 366520 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-17.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: that makes sense so far, but what about the other instructions that you mentioned then? < 1663052122 174505 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :incgo(r, n) = is Increase register r by one and then jump to instruction n unconditionally, which lets you have a advance one instruction, or jump anywhere, forwards or back. < 1663052136 996990 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Jumping back is imposible otherwise < 1663052218 476008 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Minsky makes a point of a register 'w' in the 5 register machine which is wasted because all it does in allow a go(n) instruction to be made from dec(w, n) -- a guaranteed failed test to let you jump arbitrarily < 1663052347 971242 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The thing that struck me is that there are quite a few instruction sets discussed, and they have pretty clear trade offs with the number of registers required to be certain things. You can trade a register for an instruction < 1663052420 741706 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have only been looking at Minsky, esowiki languages, and my own experiments. I'll try to locate the Aho, Ullman (1972) book < 1663052481 172045 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-17.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: wait, so all you're saying is a three-register Minsky machine is still TC if you don't use arbitrary finite state control, but only restricted types of programs that can only jump after trying to pop an empty stack? < 1663052548 783682 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-17.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that might be true but I don't think it's very illuminating. the normal Minsky machine that I think of is the one that has arbitrary finite control so it can jump any time, or alternately the increment instruction has one goto target and the decrement instruction has two, or alternately the increment instruction has one goto target and the decrement has two but they're adjacent lines < 1663052607 215510 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, if I understand what you mean, that's what Minsky is saying ; 3 regs,  inc(n), and decz(r, n) , is TC , and I agree and can see how that works, but removing one register breaks it < 1663052607 921838 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-17.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I don't see why that would break any proofs that reduce something *to* Minsky machines, rather than the other direction < 1663052667 789280 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The Autopsy TC proof is the most sensible / best one that might be affected http://yiap.nfshost.com/esoteric/autopsy/autopsy.html  -- I'm still trying to figure it out < 1663052707 425500 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but taking Keymaker's statement at face value "any Minsky Machine program using no more than 2 registers and only INC and DEC instructions (which is, of course, a Turing-complete system)." < 1663052732 163589 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it seems like it falls short < 1663052919 651582 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Any language that tries to be clever by using minimal (2) unbounded registers , and reduced instruction sets could fall for this -- Minsky Swap seems the prime example. < 1663052928 745181 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-17.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, sorry, ignore my last line < 1663052930 15600 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-17.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that was stupid < 1663052990 397567 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The proof stuff on the Minsky Swap page is written by me, and I now think it's wrong, because I messed up the instruction set. < 1663053031 449756 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-17.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, so if you happened to want to prove a language turing-complete by compiling Minksy machines to it, but this reduction is so limited that it can only jump after a failed decrement, then yes, you could have a problem. so are there really any such attempts to proof that aren't trivial to fix, by allowing jumps anywhere, or by allowing more than one symbol on the stacks, or allowing more than two < 1663053037 455273 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-17.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :counters? < 1663053132 464495 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: your Minsky machine conception seems sensible -- jumping at any time is helpful. The problem seems to be there is no clear definitions, and it's not generally a problem unless < 1663053150 961721 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :someone is trying to be minimal as possible. < 1663053182 181554 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-17.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: ok, I didn't know you'd call the classes with no full finite control Minsky machines < 1663053237 438314 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I first ran into problems with PMMN, which, while it makes working with general Minsky machines nice, it can't simulate a TC 2 reg machine (with only internal registers) < 1663053311 910178 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm just going by what's written in the book Computation: Finite and Infinite Machines, which I thought was the best treatment of it. < 1663053430 357361 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the root of my frustration + surprise is you can look up the 'fact': How many registers does a Minsky machine require to be TC < 1663053456 833745 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and combine it with the 'fact': What instructions does a Minsky machine support? < 1663053501 189924 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :... and come to a wrong conclusion that a 2 register machine can be TC with two simple instructions. < 1663053690 30783 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also surprised that there's a lot of work of minimal bf command sets to get to 3 cell bf, but there's less on the Minsky machine version < 1663053738 659485 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Minsky tends to call his machine 'program machines', if that helps terminology. < 1663053968 969180 :razetime!~quassel@117.254.34.77 JOIN #esolangs razetime :razetime < 1663054031 346390 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-17.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I understand now why you mentioned 3-cell Brainfuck: Brainfuck is what popularizes this kind of silly restricted control flow, and while the restriction usually doesn't matter, for variants like BF on a fixed short length tape or Bfjoust it does < 1663054155 419317 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-17.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Minsky tends to call his machine 'program machines'," => I call them counter machines, or 2-counter machines for the case of two counters. I only started to hear "Minsky" here from ais523. < 1663054237 791909 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-17.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well ok, not just those. regular expressions are the other thing that popularizes them. < 1663054477 62306 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-17.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but even so, brainfuck, regular expressions, and pascal without goto (with only if and while) are restrictions that also limit your branches to properly nest; the one you're talking about only restricts where you can place a jump but allows arbitrary targets there. I guess that's not too weird either, that kind of restriction could arise semi-naturally, but it's not one I'm thinking of often < 1663054494 547599 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-17.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :dunno < 1663054668 171611 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-17.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I just haven't met these kinds of restrictions recently < 1663054677 909303 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-17.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the ones I've seen all allow arbitrary finite control with conditional gotos < 1663054692 896277 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-17.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or if-goto-else-gotos or whatnot < 1663055097 755495 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1663056751 946413 :razetime!~quassel@117.254.34.77 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1663057907 587670 :razetime!~quassel@117.254.34.77 JOIN #esolangs razetime :razetime < 1663057960 352448 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1663058553 606741 :underpantsgnome[!~tinybronc@2001:470:69fc:105::2:1af6 QUIT :Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM < 1663058824 349953 :underpantsgnome[!~tinybronc@2001:470:69fc:105::2:1af6 JOIN #esolangs * :@tinybronca:sibnsk.net < 1663059555 310090 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown < 1663060240 777167 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1663060289 480872 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter_machine describes a Minsky machine as having 2 instructions: { INC ( r, z ), JZDEC ( r, ztrue, zfalse) } < 1663060438 984305 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think instruction sets { { INC ( r ) , JZDEC ( r, ztrue, zfalse) } or { INC ( r, z ), JZDEC ( r, ztrue ) } would give the same ability, trading arbitrary jumps for sequential ones in two different locations. < 1663060654 32269 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :These would be TC with 2 registers. Being able to branch to a non-sequential next instruction is crucial for only 2 registers. Adding another register allows arbitrary jumps to be simulated while retaining data storage and a working / testing reg < 1663060830 527862 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll try and read some of the other literature on Counter machines. It feels like there should be a table of trade-offs for minimal basis machines like this, in terms of branch instructions, allowed values, and number of registers etc < 1663061018 123856 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: "without goto (with only if and while) " ... Portable Minsky Machine notation has that limitation, and that's what struck me as a problem first, it's quite different from a goto, but if you have an extra register, you can simulate the gotos < 1663061080 440516 :salpynx!~salpynx@151.210.163.158 QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1663063473 161823 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas < 1663064109 534600 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: there's kind of a distinction though: programming only if and while is somewhat worse than programming with if, while, and calling named functions. but then even just if and while doesn't really restrict control flow if you can set and clear named flag variables anywhere and the if can test any named flag variable. it can just get ugly < 1663064109 988417 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :with a big while{if{}if{}...if{}} state machine loop in the worst case. < 1663064191 732363 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have a kind of dual feeling about the control flow thing: I write almost all my programs with just ifs (or if-elses) and whiles and function calls, but despite that I prefer if the language gives me the ability to write gotos, gotos that I then almost never use. < 1663064263 314469 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( 99% of my program terminates ) < 1663064324 620848 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: mine don't because for theoretical reasons I have to consider some kinds of diagnosed fatal errors as non-termination < 1663064358 884470 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it makes proofs simpler\ < 1663064369 562209 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :bottoms are lies < 1663064459 671395 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, what's a fatal error in Turing machines or lambda calculus ;) < 1663064483 186057 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :they may be lies but they make the language composable, and that's what makes the theory and proofs simpler < 1663064529 288525 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: you may be ";)"ing now but it'll make sense when I reveal how Consumer Society works and why it necessarily has fatal errors < 1663064562 369707 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(obviously it also has non-termination, just like turing-machines or lambda-calculus) < 1663065146 761637 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot, who invented electrons? J. J. Thomson or Taneb? < 1663065147 31569 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: ( the least amount of processing, even if their stupidity causes a bunch of < 1663065172 990503 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? electron < 1663065175 314567 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :electron? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1663065218 243267 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: what's the name of the industry concerned by manufacturing electrons? electrics industry or electronics industry? < 1663065218 422927 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: why doesn't define-macro work in mzscheme < 1663065282 593065 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`learn Electrons are a blatant violation of the axiom of foundation: Electron contains chrome, and chrome contains electrons. < 1663065285 857816 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Learned 'electron': Electrons are a blatant violation of the axiom of foundation: Electron contains chrome, and chrome contains electrons. < 1663065341 841891 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, nice < 1663065364 505682 :genpaku!~gen@107.191.100.185 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1663065378 371726 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should remove some of my more stupid older wisdoms and use the freed up quota to modify /wisdom/catamorphism < 1663065402 453736 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I just don't dare to edit it because it already exists and its body is unrelated to the cat fitting through hole joke < 1663065404 966386 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? catamorphism < 1663065406 885918 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :A catamorphism is when you recurse too greedily and too deep. < 1663065553 311861 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nah, even if I free up quota I wouldn't be able to edit this < 1663065641 538906 :genpaku!~gen@107.191.100.185 JOIN #esolangs genpaku :paku < 1663067066 765877 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1663067440 729360 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed > 1663071842 418981 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Befunge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103175&oldid=102034 5* 03Quintopia 5* (+194) 10/* Befunge-93 and Befunge-98 */ < 1663073964 144830 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas < 1663074371 44977 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`run /bin/cat /hackenv/bin/$'\x0F' # so this is an invisible command that ... does what exactly?\ < 1663074372 157710 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​#!/bin/bash \ cmd="${@-quote}" \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$cmd" | rnooodl < 1663074407 239176 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it's just like the double and triple backtick? < 1663074412 968674 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`run /bin/cat /hackenv/bin/\` < 1663074413 976305 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​#!/bin/bash \ cmd="${@-quote}" \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$cmd" | rnooodl < 1663074415 240701 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`run /bin/cat /hackenv/bin/\`\` < 1663074416 197885 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​#!/bin/sh \ export LANG=C; exec bash -O extglob -c "$@" | rnooodl < 1663074550 477249 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and more backticks overwrites the locale, but differs slightly in other ways. heck. < 1663075354 45813 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine < 1663075886 995948 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1663076598 388877 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf > 1663076711 821402 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Main Page14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103176&oldid=102452 5* 03Seemingly Unrelated 5* (+0) 10 < 1663077684 588699 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Quit: impomatic < 1663077980 422579 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663079035 950557 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1663080987 465643 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Quit: impomatic < 1663081008 439189 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663081259 338112 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Client Quit < 1663081281 461112 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663081587 437084 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Quit: impomatic < 1663081607 494899 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663081861 448919 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Client Quit < 1663081881 452027 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663082928 940720 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1663082985 448237 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Quit: impomatic < 1663083229 328768 :impomatic!~impomatic@host86-177-14-229.range86-177.btcentralplus.com JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663083584 329558 :impomatic!~impomatic@host86-177-14-229.range86-177.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Quit: impomatic < 1663083604 267424 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663083675 164919 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Excess Flood < 1663083855 640811 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Client Quit < 1663083875 281887 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663084484 213422 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Quit: impomatic < 1663084504 332853 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663084755 853136 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Client Quit < 1663084767 639514 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron < 1663084776 266374 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663085084 216715 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Quit: impomatic < 1663085104 280684 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663085355 574858 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Client Quit < 1663085376 1491 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663085485 362950 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1663085684 150047 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Quit: impomatic < 1663085706 148041 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663085955 844984 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Client Quit < 1663085976 133156 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf > 1663089237 497310 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Main Page14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103177&oldid=103176 5* 03Seemingly Unrelated 5* (+20) 10Rounded corners < 1663090007 562497 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1663090184 155335 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Quit: impomatic < 1663090204 128013 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663090374 288687 :razetime!~quassel@117.254.34.77 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1663090455 499698 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Client Quit < 1663090476 137247 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663091646 205783 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1663092284 149584 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Quit: impomatic < 1663092304 189863 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663092555 643946 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Client Quit < 1663092576 129976 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663092870 178486 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1663092997 544394 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1663093943 932655 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Excess Flood < 1663094001 690569 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron > 1663094703 891374 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UglyBF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103178&oldid=25413 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+2148) 10Reformatted and extended the documentation. < 1663094765 898602 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord > 1663094818 133161 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UglyBF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103179&oldid=103178 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+164) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the UglyBF programming language on GitHub. < 1663094829 43639 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1663094929 953510 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life > 1663094950 554898 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UglyBF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103180&oldid=103179 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+206) 10Added categories to the page. > 1663095054 782691 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UglyBF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103181&oldid=103180 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+103) 10Added an infinite cat program as a further example. < 1663095359 803194 :immibis_!~hexchat@i689751E6.versanet.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1663095377 458248 :immibis_!~hexchat@i689751E6.versanet.de JOIN #esolangs * :realname < 1663095584 225385 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Quit: impomatic < 1663095604 185716 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663095855 997051 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Client Quit < 1663095876 131956 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663096670 457543 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1663097084 108054 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Quit: impomatic < 1663097104 149369 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663097355 437513 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Client Quit < 1663097375 69706 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663097638 951426 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1663097700 953315 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1663098363 71854 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1663098964 282043 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Colang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103182&oldid=103008 5* 03Rdococ 5* (+973) 10Update for new syntax < 1663099184 217052 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Quit: impomatic > 1663099192 932121 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Colang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103183&oldid=103182 5* 03Rdococ 5* (+72) 10Fix inconsistent indentation < 1663099204 77866 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663099455 852956 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Client Quit < 1663099476 43623 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663099476 647805 :FreeFull!~freefull@user-5-173-29-229.play-internet.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull > 1663100153 484195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Colang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103184&oldid=103183 5* 03Rdococ 5* (+66) 10 > 1663100200 738875 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Colang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103185&oldid=103184 5* 03Rdococ 5* (+22) 10/* Sets */ > 1663100248 161736 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Colang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103186&oldid=103185 5* 03Rdococ 5* (+44) 10Fix code tags > 1663100821 250102 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UglyBF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103187&oldid=103181 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+0) 10Rectified an erroneous instance of < instead of > in the command list. < 1663102484 35001 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Quit: impomatic < 1663102506 100055 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663102755 471623 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Client Quit < 1663102776 131829 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663103084 49332 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Quit: impomatic < 1663103104 72218 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663103355 677737 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Client Quit < 1663103376 48744 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663104038 510444 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1663104884 140309 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Quit: impomatic < 1663104904 108771 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663105155 370909 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Client Quit < 1663105175 128415 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663105441 452899 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1663105541 1175 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in < 1663105601 405796 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in < 1663105784 360795 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Quit: impomatic < 1663105804 69814 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663106055 302770 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Client Quit < 1663106075 67209 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663107284 125581 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Quit: impomatic < 1663107304 198241 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663107555 552411 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Client Quit < 1663107576 117958 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 JOIN #esolangs impomatic :John Metcalf < 1663111415 210033 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fac:e001:6808:b3d0:aff7:7983 QUIT :Quit: impomatic > 1663112516 406031 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Optimism14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103188&oldid=37322 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+21) 10Add link and category > 1663112702 27132 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Salpynx/Minimal TC program machines14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=103189 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+5248) 10Starting a table of minimal TC counter machines for comparison > 1663113184 415870 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Salpynx/Minimal TC program machines14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103190&oldid=103189 5* 03Salpynx 5* (-3) 10typo: reducinging the inging