00:16:30 <fizzie> Along those lines, there was also a much lower-production-values https://nandgame.com/
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00:33:54 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Minimal TC program machines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103215&oldid=103190 * Salpynx * (+2030) adding a notes section
03:30:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103216&oldid=103200 * DivergentClouds * (+184)
04:39:19 <esolangs> [[Counterfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103217&oldid=103194 * Salpynx * (+1044) /* Examples */ Duplicate and add a prime encoded virtual register
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06:37:51 <esolangs> [[Counterfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103218&oldid=103217 * Salpynx * (+1646) /* Examples */ Hello World torture test
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08:25:31 <wib_jonas> I dreamed about chatting on the same IRC channels as in a previous dream months ago. The channels themselves are probably fictional, only exist in the dream in those forms.
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08:57:12 <fizzie> fungot: Could a bot bridge a real IRC channel to a dream one?
08:57:13 <fungot> fizzie: i found orion cumbersome on a 2.2ghz athlon 64 with reduced cache size.) i also hope it's all right now.
08:57:42 <int-e> in your dreams it could
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08:58:54 <shachaf> Are there any interesting wacky esoteric memory models?
08:58:57 <wib_jonas> fizzie: as in https://xkcd.com/269/ ? the problem is that my brain doesn't simulate the channel in enough detail, so you'd get very little information out
09:00:47 <int-e> shachaf: hmm. branching tapes (you can go left, right, and back). also the weird a-bit-of-everything-is-stored-everywhere model that's enabled by quantum computers :P
09:01:07 <wib_jonas> shachaf: I was wondering if we could have a buddy-block mallocator that works using Zeckendorf numbers rather than binary, so every memory block is sized a fibonacci number (with possibly a small amount reserved for the mallocator's metadata) and can be split to two smaller fibonacci sized blocks. I'm still not sure how easy or hard this would be
09:01:08 <wib_jonas> to implement. Does this count as a memory model?
09:02:33 <wib_jonas> shachaf: I think someone (maybe ais) considered a CPU with several stacks, where, since you only have one register pointing to each stack, you don't have aliasing problems, you know which memory accesses can alias with the others, the ones that use the same stack.
09:03:13 <wib_jonas> the obvious drawback is that some operations are hard to implement efficiently, like hash tables, but you can work around most of that in practice
09:04:21 <wib_jonas> you could even try that with binary trees instead of stacks, the instructions just get more complex because now to decons you usually want to move both subtrees into a register, so two registers are necessarily involved
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09:08:07 <shachaf> Hmm, I was thinking about memory models in the multithreading sense, but I guess there are much broader interpretations.
09:09:05 <esolangs> [[User talk:Salpynx/Minimal TC program machines]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=103219 * Keymaker * (+817) Autopsy is TC...
09:09:23 <int-e> add time travel, heavily violate data dependency order
09:12:01 <int-e> I think the actual models are wild enough already anyway.
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09:37:26 <shachaf> Alpha counts as esoteric presumably.
09:38:13 <HackEso> Alpha is the numeric measurement of opaqueness, a dog with unusually high voice in the Disney-Pixar Up film, and a NATO phonetic alphabet letteral.
09:38:37 <int-e> Alpha risk, I mean RISC.
09:40:53 <int-e> But... isn't it just that its memory model was just ahead of the times? The default memory ordering (without fences and the like) is pretty weak these days.
09:41:59 <shachaf> Alpha is weak and weird in a way no other architecture isn't, as far as I know.
09:42:46 <shachaf> Because data dependencies aren't sufficient to provide load-load ordering.
09:44:38 <shachaf> So you can have this situation: Thread A does "val = 123; barrier(); ptr = &val;"
09:46:00 <shachaf> Thread B does "addr = ptr; use(*addr);"
09:46:30 <shachaf> And thread B will see the new value of ptr, but the old value of var.
09:47:22 <wib_jonas> shachaf: why is that surprising or weak? B would have to do some kind of locking too, especially since it only does reading, no writing
09:49:21 <wib_jonas> can't that happen on any modern architecture?
09:54:23 <int-e> IIRC (my memory on this is quite hazy) the weirdness of Alpha was that they could do this even without caches... because they had a store queue and threads would snoop that before accessing memory.
09:55:10 <wib_jonas> int-e: without caches? without caches is trickier, hmm.
09:55:27 <int-e> well, the store queue was effectively a cache
09:55:38 <int-e> a very weird one, but still.
09:56:03 <int-e> now, all it takes is for some cache to propagate writes out of order
09:56:37 <wib_jonas> ok, but isn't the barrier supposed to stop reordering those writes?
09:59:14 <wib_jonas> that said normally I assume that there may be caches
09:59:26 <wib_jonas> there's a good reason we use those in all semi-modern and modern cpus
10:01:19 <int-e> Well personally I'd assume that the second thread needs a barrier despite the data dependency; otherwise the core running thread B is allowed to use a stale value of *addr if it happens to have one handy.
10:02:07 <wib_jonas> a barrier or some other form of synchronization
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10:21:37 <wib_jonas> so, weird question. suppose I'm a publisher who arranges that an issue of a periodical comes with a randomized booster pack as a gift, with a few booster packs containing very rare and valuable stuff. the main prize is a one-of-a-kind live me. only I cheat, the booster packs aren't shuffled properly, I arrange that the national library gets the
10:21:38 <wib_jonas> copy that contains me. obviously I try to do the cheating stealthily and plausibly deniably, but supposing that I mess up and the cheating comes to light and is proven. is the library then still obligated to keep me immortal?
10:23:26 <int-e> Apparently x86_64 is still boring in this regard, and Alpha is still the only one to reorder dependent loads. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_ordering#In_symmetric_multiprocessing_(SMP)_microprocessor_systems
10:33:43 <int-e> (Is there any information on memory ordering on Amazon's Graviton thing? Possibly also on Apple's M1 and M2; they might offer stronger guarantees than ARM does in general, maybe?)
10:54:31 <wib_jonas> I don't know what this Graviton that you're taking about is
10:55:38 <int-e> Amazon's own ARM-based processor for cloud servers.
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11:32:24 <fizzie> Isn't that the VVVVVV thing? No, that's the Super Gravitron.
11:33:47 <int-e> is the VVVVVV thing the thing that makes you go up and down?
11:34:04 <int-e> I remember the mechanic, I don't remember names
11:34:17 <wib_jonas> int-e: it's a platformer where instead of a jump you get to switch gravity between up and down\, but only when you're standing on something rather than in the air
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11:34:40 <int-e> Oh I've played the game.
11:35:16 <wib_jonas> also there's some complicated story with a captain saving crew members of the clip, and a lot of rooms have a name that's displayed at the bottom of the screen, and low resolution graphics, and the palette of walls changing often between rooms, and moving platforms
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11:38:38 <int-e> Oh well, let me google... oh, a minigame, hmm. I don't remember that actually.
11:38:51 <int-e> It has been years though.
11:39:37 <int-e> (My Google is a Duckduckgo-wrapped Bing. What's yours?)
11:42:14 <fizzie> It had an enforced Super Gravitron bit at the "last boss", if I recall correctly, which I was just terrible at, but finally managed to muddle through.
11:42:30 <fizzie> And you could get achievements for being good at it (but I didn't).
11:42:50 <fizzie> My Google is just regular Google, because it kind of feels like I'd be unfaithful if it wasn't.
11:42:52 <wib_jonas> wait, so the "Super" part is real? I thought there was just a room called the Gravitron where you have to survive until the time runs down
11:43:28 <fizzie> There was that, but then there was a separate minigame in the endgame.
11:43:57 <fizzie> The minigame version doesn't have a specific time limit, you just have to survive as long as possible.
11:44:36 <fizzie> The regular room probably didn't have "Super" in the name, that's true.
11:45:16 <fizzie> (Apparently it's also a standalone free iOS game now.)
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12:23:43 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * ALBANIAN-LAUNDROMAT * uploaded "[[File:YAME hello world.png]]"
12:24:54 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * ALBANIAN-LAUNDROMAT * uploaded a new version of "[[File:YAME hello world.png]]"
12:28:11 <esolangs> [[Yet Another Musical Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103222&oldid=103211 * ALBANIAN-LAUNDROMAT * (+75)
12:38:36 <esolangs> [[Yet Another Musical Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103223&oldid=103222 * ALBANIAN-LAUNDROMAT * (+89)
13:11:53 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * ALBANIAN-LAUNDROMAT * uploaded "[[File:YAME factorial.png]]"
13:12:57 <esolangs> [[Yet Another Musical Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103225&oldid=103223 * ALBANIAN-LAUNDROMAT * (+59) /* Examples */
13:14:00 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * ALBANIAN-LAUNDROMAT * uploaded a new version of "[[File:YAME factorial.png]]"
13:22:20 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * ALBANIAN-LAUNDROMAT * uploaded a new version of "[[File:YAME factorial.png]]"
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13:42:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * ALBANIAN-LAUNDROMAT * uploaded "[[File:Screenshot 2022-09-15 08.40.27.png]]"
13:42:40 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * ALBANIAN-LAUNDROMAT * moved [[File:Screenshot 2022-09-15 08.40.27.png]] to [[File:YAME truth machine.png]]
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13:45:44 <esolangs> [[Yet Another Musical Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103231&oldid=103225 * ALBANIAN-LAUNDROMAT * (+66)
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13:51:20 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103232&oldid=99448 * ALBANIAN-LAUNDROMAT * (+86) /* X.so */
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14:56:36 * zut slaps b_jonas around a bit with a large trout
14:56:54 <zut> `zalgo * zut slaps b_jonas around a bit with a large trout
14:56:56 <HackEso> *̶ͤ ̂̎z͗ͥu̝͐t͛͛ ̰ͧs̱̩l͉ͯȧ͖p̅̄s̼̉ ̦̾b̴̥_็̲j͂̊o̸͞n̟ͮạ̓sͩ̀ ͙͡aͯ͠ŕ̄o̬̒u͛͑n̨͢ḑͨ ̄ͤá̃ ̍͠b̃̈́ì͢t͔͗ ̄͝ẃ̳i̜ͣt̜̖h̯̬ ͑͜ă͡ ̹͐l̻̀a̺̭r͔͙gͫͭe̦̓ ̡̉t͇̉r̲̉o͊ͨu̟̯ẗ̨́
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15:24:26 <wib_jonas> ok, "at once" is a bit strong when I only reacted half an hour later. unhand my alter ego by the deadline of three years hence, zut
15:27:52 <zut> `echo 123 test
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15:42:40 <j-bot> wib_jonas, pong: 123 test
15:42:57 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {ircMsgServer = "libera", ircMsgLBName = "lambdabot", ircMsgPrefix = "wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu", ircMsgCommand = "PRIVMSG", ircMsgParams
15:42:58 <lambdabot> = ["#esolangs",":?echo 123 test"]} target:#esolangs rest:"123 test"
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16:12:23 <esolangs> [[Yet Another Musical Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103233&oldid=103231 * ALBANIAN-LAUNDROMAT * (+0) /* Notes and rhythms */
16:26:26 <shachaf> wib_jonas: In other architectures the data dependency is enough.
16:28:43 <shachaf> I think the thing that's going on with Alpha is that it has some sort of split cache thing, where dependencies in one might not help because the other can still not be up to date.
16:29:16 <wib_jonas> shachaf: as in can your earlier example fail on other architectures because the old value of val was in a cache close to the core where and when B read var?
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16:49:46 <shachaf> I don't think so, because normally cache coherence will mean you see the new value, I think.
16:51:57 <shachaf> Since the writing thread has a dependency, so it flushes the entries from its store buffer in order or something.
16:57:47 <wib_jonas> shachaf: I understand that the writes will be in order, it's the reads in thread B that I don't see why they couldn't be reordered
16:59:49 <wib_jonas> especially if thread B speculative guesses the address of the second read and thus delays the data dependency to later when it verifies the speculative read from the address and the TLB
17:00:58 <wib_jonas> or are you saying that B sees the writes in order and updates its cache in that order?
17:01:39 <wib_jonas> or at least invalidates that line in its cache when it sees the first write
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17:04:33 <wib_jonas> I don't know, I admit I don't really understand the low level details of multithread synchronization
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17:49:20 <esolangs> [[User talk:AceKiron]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103234&oldid=102533 * AceKiron * (+27)
17:49:46 <esolangs> [[User talk:AceKiron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103235&oldid=103234 * AceKiron * (-27) Undo revision 103234 by [[Special:Contributions/AceKiron|AceKiron]] ([[User talk:AceKiron|talk]])
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18:32:31 <esolangs> [[Gtltem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103236&oldid=70802 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+1447) Reformatted the gtltemASCII table and changed the enumeration following the entry for n, as the code 79 seems to have been omitted indeliberatedly.
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18:33:40 <esolangs> [[Gtltem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103237&oldid=103236 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+1089) Added an implementation in Common Lisp.
18:34:12 <esolangs> [[Gtltem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103238&oldid=103237 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+172) Added categories to the page.
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18:35:40 <esolangs> [[Gtltem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103239&oldid=103238 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+415) Introduced an examples section, containing the Hello, World! program as its incipient member.
18:38:28 <esolangs> [[Gtltem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103240&oldid=103239 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+118) Formatted the command tokens as code.
18:40:32 <esolangs> [[BitQueue]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=103241 * DivergentClouds * (+1671) Created page with "'''BitQueue''' is a language created by DivergentClouds. == Overview == In BitQueue data is operated on in the form of a queue of individual bits. Any operation that looks at..."
18:43:59 <esolangs> [[BitQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103242&oldid=103241 * DivergentClouds * (+123)
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19:48:06 <esolangs> [[Yet Another Musical Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103243&oldid=103233 * ALBANIAN-LAUNDROMAT * (+68)
19:51:23 <esolangs> [[User:Nick-1666/vector.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103244&oldid=102994 * Nick-1666 * (-19026) Blanked the page
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19:53:05 <Nick17> can we please add any sort of darkmode to esolangs.org?
19:53:34 <int-e> . o O ( reduce the brightness of your monitor )
19:54:11 <Nick17> theres no reason for darkvector to not be a theme
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19:56:50 <Nick17> the link is https://github.com/dolfinus/DarkVector if anyone has time
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19:58:11 <int-e> Yeah I don't know how Wikimedia handles themes. Apparently esolangs has four of them.
19:58:25 <int-e> fizzie: this one might be for you...
19:59:01 <esolangs> [[BitQueue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103245&oldid=103242 * DivergentClouds * (+1) fixed typo
20:00:57 <Nick94> there's an install guide and yall have included some already, if you have and extra 221Kb on the server it would be really useful
20:03:16 <Nick94> or you could mayhaps let us edit pages with large amounts of css at once and just paste it in for preference pages although that would be more complex with plugins and such
20:03:27 <Nick94> like large pastes at once
20:06:46 <int-e> Well, there's just a couple of people with admin access in the wiki (I'm not one of them). Give it some time please.
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20:13:43 <fizzie> I've been sticking to extensions published under https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/plugins/gitiles/mediawiki/extensions/+/refs/heads/master (and .../skins/...) for some sense of "officialness".
20:16:47 <fizzie> Mostly in the hopes that they wouldn't become a problem when upgrading. They've got the same branches and things.
20:18:36 <fizzie> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:DarkMode is one of those extensions, but from the looks of it, it's one of those fake dark modes, it just adds a CSS filter to invert everything and then add a few tweaks.
20:19:08 <fizzie> "In future we hope to offer dark mode the Vector and Minerva skins through changes in the underlying code architecture for all skins that will support better maintainability."
20:19:13 <fizzie> That'd be the sensible choice.
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20:34:45 <fizzie> Admittedly it's also past time for a MediaWiki upgrade, so maybe what I'll do is, I'll try adding it but with the implied understanding that if it ever breaks during an upgrade, it just gets disabled.
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21:36:59 <esolangs> [[User talk:Salpynx/Minimal TC program machines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103246&oldid=103219 * Salpynx * (+2677) /* Autopsy is TC */ Yup, I agree, and see where I went wrong now, thx!
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21:55:00 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Minimal TC program machines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103247&oldid=103215 * Salpynx * (+535) /* Table of minimal TC program / counter machines */ Correct my Autopsy mistakes, and add jzdec(r, z<sub>TRUE</sub>, z<sub>FALSE</sub>) form
21:57:36 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Minimal TC program machines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103248&oldid=103247 * Salpynx * (-71) /* Table of minimal TC program / counter machines */ fix paste error
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22:48:39 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Minimal TC program machines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103249&oldid=103248 * Salpynx * (+307) /* Table of minimal TC program / counter machines */ Found Minsky's version of two branch target jzdec() in the 1961 paper, not hidden at all.
23:00:44 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DeathByHMX * New user account
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