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09:55:07 <esolangs> [[!Tautologos]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103977&oldid=69368 * Rdococ * (+77) Make sane
09:55:18 <esolangs> [[!Tautologos]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103978&oldid=103977 * Rdococ * (-33) 
09:56:25 <esolangs> [[!Tautologos]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103979&oldid=103978 * Rdococ * (+2) /* Semantics */
09:58:46 <esolangs> [[Colang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103980&oldid=103947 * Rdococ * (+146) Improve control construct example
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10:24:23 <esolangs> [[Colang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103981&oldid=103980 * Rdococ * (-2) /* Implementations */
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12:46:52 <int-e> `` for i in <(echo 1) <(echo 2); do cat $i; done
12:46:55 <HackEso> cat: /dev/fd/62: No such file or directory \ 1
12:49:07 <b_jonas> hehe
12:50:33 <fizzie> Huh, what's up with that? Locally it works in an interactive shell command line, but not in `bash -c '...'`.
12:50:57 <int-e> `` for i in <(echo 1) <(echo 2); do cat $i; done 2>&1
12:50:58 <HackEso> 1 \ cat: /dev/fd/62: No such file or directory
12:51:19 <int-e> Ah, that "fixes" the order. *that* makes some sense.
12:51:34 <fizzie> Yeah, you often get stderr first for HackEso commands.
12:51:44 <fizzie> But I'm not sure how https://0x0.st/owiE.txt happens.
12:52:02 <int-e> Hmm, so what is your shell?
12:52:06 <fizzie> Bash.
12:52:19 <int-e> odd. My interactive shell does the same thing as your bash -c
12:52:37 <int-e> Is there some shopt in play maybe?
12:53:10 <fizzie> Just checking: `readlink /proc/$$/exe` => /usr/bin/bash
12:53:16 <fizzie> Maybe it's an option of some sort.
12:54:21 <fizzie> Diffing `shopt` vs. `bash -c shopt`, the differences are: expand_aliases, extglob and histappend are all on instead of off, and hostcomplete is off instead of on.
12:55:55 <fizzie> `` bash -c 'shopt -s expand_aliases extglob histappend; shopt -u hostcomplete; for i in <(echo 1) <(echo 2); do cat $i; done'
12:55:56 <HackEso> 1 \ 2
12:56:02 <fizzie> I guess one of those does make a difference
12:56:25 <fizzie> Seems to be expand_aliases.
12:56:46 <int-e> `` echo 0; for i in <(echo 1) <(echo 2); do cat $i; done
12:56:47 <HackEso> 0 \ 1 \ 2
12:56:53 <int-e> `` true; for i in <(echo 1) <(echo 2); do cat $i; done
12:56:54 <HackEso> 1 \ 2
12:56:56 <int-e> ODD!
12:56:56 <fizzie> Oh, okay.
12:57:10 <fizzie> So it's just the act of there being a command (like my shopt) before it.
12:57:36 <fizzie> That's just plain weird.
12:57:59 <int-e> `` true | for i in <(echo 1) <(echo 2); do cat $i; done
12:58:01 <HackEso> cat: /dev/fd/62: No such file or directory \ 1
12:58:25 <int-e> `` true; ( for i in <(echo 1) <(echo 2); do cat $i; done )
12:58:26 <HackEso> 1 \ 2
12:58:28 <int-e> I don't get it.
12:58:38 <fizzie> Uh. I opened a new shell in my screen, and in it it again fails to work.
12:58:46 <fizzie> Like, from the interactive command line.
12:58:52 <fizzie> Even if I run some other commands before.
12:58:58 <fizzie> But in a different screen window, it works.
12:59:51 <fizzie> Of course in the non-working window, if I prefix `true;` on the same input line, it works.
12:59:55 <int-e> is it the same host and the same (version of) the executable?
12:59:59 <fizzie> Yes.
13:00:30 <int-e> Anyway... I can't even decide whether this is a bug.
13:00:34 <fizzie> Well, as much as $BASH_VERSION can tell.
13:00:53 <int-e> `` sha1sum /proc/$$/exe
13:00:54 <HackEso> 0533efae0065e72c1d833b9f7a678a20995bd5a6  /proc/49/exe
13:01:17 <int-e> ...of course it could be a shared library difference, at which point things become tricky :P
13:01:52 <b_jonas> "often get stderr first for HackEso commands." => that's because there's a stupid rnoooooooodl in between
13:02:03 <b_jonas> but only in between stdout, not between stderr
13:03:48 <fizzie> It's the same according to `sha1sum /proc/$$/exe` as well. How does that work if the binary changes, incidentally? And would it make a difference if the binary gets deleted and recreated (in which case I assume the `exe` symlink would go to that special "(deleted)" mode) vs. just rewritten in-place (which might keep it as-is)?
13:04:43 <fizzie> I think it's just something in the shell's state, but the other shell's been alive since Oct 2, so I can't exactly tell what I might have done in it that would make it work.
13:05:05 <fizzie> Giving up and going for breakfast instead.
13:06:10 <b_jonas> `run echo one|(echo two|(cat /dev/fd/$u /dev/fd/$v){v}<&0){u}<&0
13:06:11 <HackEso> one \ two
13:06:37 <int-e> Ah, found a host with zsh; zsh seems to keep the fds open for the duration of the loop.
13:07:28 <b_jonas> "rewritten in-place" => IIRC Linux usually doesn't allow you to do that with a binary that you are running. it's mmapping in a special super-locked way. you can unlink and replace with a different executable, or write the new executable to a build directory and then move it in which would be the normal way
13:08:22 <b_jonas> this is one of the very few things that Linux doesn't allow even root to do, even when they specifically ask to yes really do it
13:08:29 <b_jonas> the other is writing into a file that's used as a kernel module
13:08:41 <b_jonas> but don't trust any of this, I'm saying it only from memory
13:08:53 <b_jonas> in any case it's a "don't do that" thing
13:09:10 <b_jonas> replacing the link with a new file is fine of course
13:09:18 <int-e> > for i in <(true) <(true); do echo $i <(true); done
13:09:19 <lambdabot>  <hint>:1:7: error: parse error on input ‘in’
13:09:23 <int-e> err
13:09:24 <int-e> `` for i in <(true) <(true); do echo $i <(true); done
13:09:25 <HackEso> ​/dev/fd/63 /dev/fd/61 \ /dev/fd/62 /dev/fd/63
13:09:48 <int-e> note that /dev/fd/63 is getting reused after the first command completed... so weird.
13:10:06 <int-e> but not if you prefix the loop by an extra command.
13:10:35 <b_jonas> int-e: maybe it's like nondeterministic depending on when the processes finish? try to add a sleep
13:10:45 <b_jonas> `run for i in <(true) <(true); do echo $i <(true); done
13:10:46 <HackEso> ​/dev/fd/63 /dev/fd/61 \ /dev/fd/62 /dev/fd/63
13:10:55 <b_jonas> `run for i in <(sleep 1; true) <(sleep 1; true); do echo $i <(sleep 1; true); done
13:10:57 <HackEso> ​/dev/fd/63 /dev/fd/61 \ /dev/fd/62 /dev/fd/63
13:11:03 <fizzie> b_jonas: I know that happens with daemons I've started from systemd (I occasionally try to replace them with `cat ~/thing > /usr/loca/bin/thing` as a way of not having the permissions change) but I kind of thought it depended on how the executable was started. But maybe it's true for everything.
13:11:09 <b_jonas> except we know sleep behaves silly on HAckEso for some reason
13:11:47 <int-e> b_jonas: nah, adding `sleep 10` doesn't make a difference
13:12:44 <int-e> b_jonas: I'm testing locally, not on HackEso
13:12:55 <b_jonas> fizzie: in that case thing is usually a shebang executable, not a true native executable, so you can replace it just fine
13:13:15 <b_jonas> `` zsh -c 'echo hi'
13:13:16 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 5: zsh: command not found
13:14:55 <b_jonas> you probably don't need to know this, but I would only do this for eso purposes; for normal stuff I'd give up trying to understand bash before this point and use something else to spawn the programs
13:17:15 <int-e> fungot: which is worse, watching milk boil or watching SAT solver progress?
13:17:16 <fungot> int-e: ( assigning) or ( define ( sum-of-squares-two-largest x y z...)
13:18:00 <b_jonas> the latter
13:18:09 <esolangs> [[Colang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103982&oldid=103981 * Rdococ * (+12) Rename language to Tinytalk
13:18:29 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move  * Rdococ *  moved [[Colang]] to [[Tinytalk]]: Renamed programming language
13:18:50 <esolangs> [[User:Rdococ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103985&oldid=103895 * Rdococ * (+2) Rename Colang to Tinytalk
13:19:02 <esolangs> [[User:Rdococ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103986&oldid=103985 * Rdococ * (+0) 
13:19:17 <esolangs> [[Tinytalk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103987&oldid=103983 * Rdococ * (+0) 
13:19:54 <esolangs> [[Tinytalk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103988&oldid=103987 * Rdococ * (+0) Adjust capitalization
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13:28:16 <int-e> b_jonas: you're probably right.
13:29:26 <int-e> (I'm (still) playing around with the Ponder This! challenge, to see whether I can narrow the gap between upper and lower bounds that I have...)
13:30:05 <int-e> And the problem is so messy that SAT solving is the best approach I have for upper bounds at least.
13:32:12 <esolangs> [[User:Rdococ]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103989&oldid=103986 * Rdococ * (+451) Add refurbished languages
13:40:30 <b_jonas> can you give a link?
13:40:32 <b_jonas> `? ponder this
13:40:34 <HackEso> ponder this? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:40:39 <b_jonas> I don't usually look at it
13:46:16 <int-e> https://research.ibm.com/haifa/ponderthis/challenges/October2022.html
13:47:08 <int-e> Funnily enough it originally asked for ab optimal solution... I guess nobody managed that.
13:52:15 <esolangs> [[Tinytalk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103990&oldid=103988 * Rdococ * (+2) 
13:57:21 <b_jonas> thanks
13:57:26 <b_jonas> `? ponderthis
13:57:28 <HackEso> ponderthis? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:57:33 <b_jonas> do we have a link to ponderthis from the wisdome?
13:57:41 <b_jonas> `? aoc
13:57:42 <HackEso> aoc Advent of Code (AoC) is a series of programming puzzles that some regulars enjoy, found at "https://adventofcode.com/about"
13:57:45 <int-e> `grwp ponderthis
13:57:47 <HackEso> No output.
14:01:49 <int-e> I guess https://research.ibm.com/haifa/ponderthis/index.shtml would be the canonical link
14:03:23 <int-e> 100M conflicts and still going strong... such resilience
14:21:45 <b_jonas> what would be the canonical wisdom name? ponderthis or ponder this ? I wish we just had synonyms in wisdom and didn't have such problems.
14:22:32 <int-e> I don't know.
14:22:34 <int-e> @where ponder
14:22:34 <lambdabot> I know nothing about ponder.
14:22:44 <int-e> @where+ ponder https://research.ibm.com/haifa/ponderthis/index.shtml
14:22:44 <lambdabot> Done.
14:23:10 <int-e> @where aoc
14:23:10 <lambdabot> I know nothing about aoc.
14:23:13 <int-e> @where advent
14:23:13 <lambdabot> I know nothing about advent.
14:23:17 <int-e> interesting
14:23:41 <int-e> b_jonas: whichever one you pick we'll get it wrong 50% of the time anyway :P
14:24:18 <int-e> (or more, "ponder" is a serious contender in my brain)
14:25:15 <b_jonas> well, we can also teach stuff like this to perlbot or even to fungоt, and perlbot at least doesn't have a taboo against synonyms, so then you'd have even more chance of being wrong by asking the wrong bot
14:26:39 <b_jonas> plus HackEso has tomfoolery and whatis too
14:30:45 <int-e> `whatis tomfoolery
14:30:47 <HackEso> tomfoolery(1hackeso) - no description
14:35:30 <b_jonas> fungot, who is Tom?
14:35:30 <fungot> b_jonas: you might be interested." " hey, you're fnord the car cdr procedures access the components of pairs.
14:36:54 <b_jonas> `run \? tom; \? tm; \? ™
14:36:57 <HackEso> tom? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ \ tm? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ \ ™? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
15:13:47 <int-e> tomfoolery can often be found at http://radar.spacebar.org/
15:19:55 <b_jonas> ...
15:22:03 <int-e> look if you give me dots I'm going to connect them
15:22:30 <int-e> ./\./\.
16:13:32 <earend1> fungot, what's your opinion on chauvinism?
16:13:32 <fungot> earend1: " load"
16:14:00 <earend1> fungot, load?
16:14:00 <fungot> earend1: i see. i thought all packages were installed automatically and which ones to fnord' redirect works only when i can't? damn... well... whatever...
16:14:56 <earend1> fungot, kennedy was murdered by mutants.
16:14:56 <fungot> earend1: course. :) ( even if you say that is the condition system. the second book, soo......
16:17:26 <earend1> in times you're easier to conduct with, than the folks having taken over freenode. wahre kommunikation ist nur unter gleichen moeglich.
16:18:06 <earend1> fungot: pfeiff nicht wenn du pisst!
16:18:06 <fungot> earend1: christi i like you, so we can stop and you start with the assumption that you are not used because they're heavy. still continuations are not explicit?
16:18:08 <int-e> `welcome
16:18:10 <HackEso> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
16:18:30 <earend1> `relcome int-e
16:18:33 <HackEso> ​int-e: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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17:23:32 <zzo38> Can you visit an Attraction that is a non-Astrotorium card copying a Astrotorium card (or an Astrotorium card copying another one), or if it somehow loses its subtypes? Lights are not mentioned as the object's characteristics, and it is unclear if it is supposed to count as part of its initial text.
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18:35:07 <earend1> int-e: true | for i in <(echo 1) <(echo 2); do cat $i;  // it fails because cat starts its own process?
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18:35:45 <earend1> `cat <(true) <(true) 
18:35:46 <HackEso> cat: '<(true) <(true) ': No such file or directory
18:36:50 <earend1> `true | for i in <(echo 1) <(echo 2); do printf '[%s]' "$i";  done  
18:36:51 <HackEso> No output.
18:37:51 <earend1> `cat < <(echo 1)
18:37:52 <HackEso> cat: '< <(echo 1)': No such file or directory
18:38:35 <earend1> `type cat
18:38:36 <HackEso> type? No such file or directory
18:38:44 <earend1> `which cat
18:38:45 <HackEso> ​/bin/cat
18:40:00 <earend1> `bash --version
18:40:01 <HackEso> GNU bash, version 5.0.3(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) \ Copyright (C) 2019 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <http://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html> \  \ This is free software; you are free to change and redistribute it. \ There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law.
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18:57:20 <esolangs> [[Tinytalk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103991&oldid=103990 * Rdococ * (-25) 
19:04:58 <esolangs> [[User:Rdococ/Old]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103992&oldid=103894 * Rdococ * (-343) 
19:44:33 <fizzie> Plain '`foo' doesn't run in a shell.
19:44:56 <fizzie> So you want '`run ...` or '`` ...` (which just invokes /hackenv/bin/`) to do anything that involves shell stuff.
19:59:54 <esolangs> [[Tinytalk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103993&oldid=103991 * Rdococ * (+505) /* Lists */
20:00:17 <esolangs> [[Tinytalk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103994&oldid=103993 * Rdococ * (+2) /* Lists */
20:00:59 <esolangs> [[Tinytalk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103995&oldid=103994 * Rdococ * (-132) /* Lists */
20:12:34 <esolangs> [[Tinytalk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103996&oldid=103995 * Rdococ * (+117) /* Lists */ Explain example better
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21:53:55 <int-e> `` for i in <(echo 1) <(echo 2); do read j < $i; echo $j; done
21:53:56 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 5: /dev/fd/62: No such file or directory \ 1 \ 1
21:55:54 <int-e> (Only two subprocesses (for `<(...)`) here, I think? I don't know. It's usually enough that it "just works".
22:21:47 <int-e> Anyway, this seems to come down to the shell deciding to close FDs 62 and 63 at different times: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/iKkI5h7a [Also why does Debian's paste hate this one?]
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23:03:28 <b_jonas> have anyone else here bought TAOCP vol 4B yet? just curious
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