00:07:57 <b_jonas> different topic, I'm going to do a zzo38 here. imagine the following fictional shapez.io-like video game. the playfield is a 3D cube grid, infinite to the north-south and east-west but 16 cubies tall with a ground plane under. in Factorio and shapez.io and Mindustry you build belt sections in a cubie, but here you instead build belt sections on a face of a cubie. so a section can go south from a cubie,
00:08:03 <b_jonas> from south into a cubie, to west from a cubie, from west into a cubie, to below from a cubie, or from below up to a cubie. these are directional one-way despite being shown as transparent pipes. a long straigh pipe made of many sections transports items to long distance as you'd expect. interesting things happen when a cubie has some other configuration of pipes than just one pipe in and another out the
00:11:31 <b_jonas> if a cubie has just one input, it blocks the items like you'd expect, and if just one input then it usually produces no items, but if the pipe is from a resource field tile on the ground plane then it periodically mines items. if a cubie has two or more input pipes and an output pipe opposite of one of the inputs then it's a priority merge, with the item going straight having priority and items from the
00:11:37 <b_jonas> other paths balanced if there's enough of them. two or more outputs and one input makes a priority splitter, with the other outputs having higher priority than the straight output. if you want an equal merge or split then you just leave the straight input or output resp unused.
00:12:05 <int-e> My idea regarding the byte order thing is a weak suspicion that maybe they wanted to write 64 bit constants with bit 0 first, then bit 1, etc. so UINT64_C(0x0102040810204080) would be the identity.
00:12:35 <int-e> I don't see any actual benefit here... and I rather suspect that in most cases this value will be constant anyway.
00:15:29 <b_jonas> if there are two inputs from opposite direction and one output, that's not a merge, it's a factory building that waits for inputs from both sides then acts as a stacker or mixer or painter; similarly two outputs opposite each other and one input make for a shape cutter. one input and one output not opposite each other it's a rotator. if you want to go another direction without rotation then you can do a
00:15:35 <b_jonas> priority merge with one input unused, or multiple consecutive rotations cancelling out each other (works in 3D but not in 2D)
00:16:03 <b_jonas> no wait, the latter doesn't work
00:16:07 <int-e> I don't understand "let you build sections in a cubie"
00:16:38 <b_jonas> int-e: those games are 2D so it lets you build sections in a belt
00:16:47 <int-e> but it sounds to me like you're just bumping all dimensions by one... so rather than lines as interfaces between squares you now have faces as interfaces between cubes
00:16:52 <b_jonas> those games are 2D so they let you build belt sections in a square tile
00:17:22 <b_jonas> int-e: no, the part about merges and splits still works in 2D actually, as long as you also add belt crossings when you use 2 inputs and 2 outputs
00:17:35 <b_jonas> with each input opposite an output
00:17:48 <int-e> unless you intend pipes/belts to be squeezed between cubes.
00:18:12 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, they're between the cubies, one cubie long going from the center of one cubie to the center of another cubie
00:18:40 <b_jonas> and each section is straight, it doesn't get curved based on what neighbors it has
00:20:35 <int-e> oh you /only/ have pipes, and they're supposed to determine the block's function?
00:21:10 <int-e> so basically... every face becomes a tristate thing: no pipe, pipe one way, pipe the other way, and that's all the information there is
00:21:11 <b_jonas> each face has either a one-way pipe in one direction, a one-way pipe in the other direction, or nothing (so far as I explained)
00:21:28 <b_jonas> exactly (later I'll add two more states totaling to five)
00:22:13 <int-e> and I guess one could recover user-friendliness by actually decoding this for UI purposes, and offering prebuilt cubes too.
00:22:46 <b_jonas> int-e: for 2D this would be user-friendly, for 3D it's very hard to implement in a way that you can see what you're building, which is why this is a hypothetical game
00:22:52 <int-e> did you ever play the infinifactory thing?
00:22:57 <b_jonas> I haven't explained about the items (shapes and pigments) yet
00:24:58 <int-e> (Asking because that one *is* 3D, though closer to the building/pipes story. The other twist is that you build 3D objects that often take up multiple cubes of space.)
00:24:59 <b_jonas> the items are pigments that work exactly as in shapez.io: you mine red, green or blue and mix them and paint octants; and shapes, which are made of eight octants that can be missing or one of four shapes with one of eight colors and, here's the twist form shapez.io, an orientation. the four minable shapes are cubes, spheres, cylinders, and hexagonal prisms, whose octants have progressively less
00:25:06 <b_jonas> symmetry, so a cube octant only has one orientation, a sphere octant 8, a cylinder octant 12, and a hexagon octant 24.
00:25:55 <b_jonas> (you could add a fifth shape whose octants differ in chiralty, but I think that's too evil)
00:26:23 <b_jonas> so one of the earliest goal shapes is made of two halfspheres with their round parts touching
00:26:41 <int-e> so octants can change position?
00:27:37 <int-e> sounds messy already tbh
00:27:38 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, if you stack two shapes then each has to fit half of the bounding box, cut in the direction opposite the two input pipes, and the stacker moves them so each is in the half-box on the side of the input
00:27:56 <b_jonas> a cutter outputs shapes suitable for stacking in that orientation
00:28:07 <int-e> especially when you start painting
00:29:31 <int-e> (even if you paint the whole surface... take a half cube, stack a half sphere, paint, remove the half sphere... you now have a half cube with a circular unpainted area. cut, rotate...)
00:29:32 <b_jonas> I didn't define what some other pipe configurations do, like the ones with two inputs and one output in three pairwise perpendicular directions, or two outputs and one input pairwise perpendicular, etc
00:29:55 <b_jonas> I'm not really decided about what those configurations should do yet, but the rest of the configurations are enough to do everything
00:30:43 <b_jonas> int-e: no, the paint goes deep, each octant is wholly the sme color. imagine the shapes made of sponge if you wish, or the paint flowing into the gaps between the octant
00:31:38 <int-e> I guess that's less messy... as far as game logic goes
00:31:47 <int-e> (the floor will be dripping with paint now though)
00:32:31 <b_jonas> no, the sponge absorbs the whole drop of paint no matter if the shape is just one eight-sphere or a full mined cube
00:33:09 <int-e> my experience with sponges has been different... anyway.
00:33:19 <int-e> just thought it was amusing
00:33:26 <b_jonas> and the paint replaces any other paint already on it, so it can brighten the color from blue to pink or pink to red, just as in shapez.io
00:34:04 <b_jonas> and the mined shapes are black and there's no black pigment so you can't unpaint sponge, just as in shapez.io
00:34:16 <b_jonas> (if you couldn't brighten colors then you wouldn't need mixers)
00:34:56 <b_jonas> it's an abstract video game, it doesn't have to work like real sponges and paint
00:35:27 <int-e> meh you reminded me that I still haven't finished the logic for my 6-factory shapez thing
00:36:40 <b_jonas> also there's a hub, which I imagine is a full height obelisk 4x4 tiles across somewhere near the staring area, and it accepts the requested shapes modulo rotation, mirroring (chirality) or shifting (for shapes that can come out of a cutter)
00:36:52 <b_jonas> but this pat is subject to change
00:38:06 <b_jonas> and you can unbuild pipes because not being able to do that is also evil
00:38:21 <b_jonas> also a pipe going down to the ground plane should probably be a sink (shapez.io trash)
00:38:26 <b_jonas> so you can discard cut pieces
00:40:06 <int-e> One of my favorite things I did in Infinifactory was an upward disposal, raising tower of garbage into the sky...
00:40:27 <b_jonas> I also have an extension for how circuit/signals should work
00:40:50 <int-e> 4D shapez with time travel
00:41:17 <int-e> I guess that's your extra bits you alluded to before
00:41:18 <b_jonas> to answer your question, I haven't played Infinifactory. should I? is it good?
00:43:20 <b_jonas> now besides pipe you can build two more things. the first is wires, which you build directional on a face between two cubies or below a cubie. they transmit boolean signals, fast enough that any length of wire transmits the signal in one tick between two junctions, kind of like shapez.io, but each wire section can only be in two states, 0 or 1, there's no void or conflict or shape or pigment state.
00:43:26 <b_jonas> junctions, which are cubies with multiple wires other than one input and one output perform various logic functions.
00:43:40 <b_jonas> I'm not quite decided on what these functions should be, I thought of multiple variants.
00:43:48 <b_jonas> a face can't have both a wire and a pipe.
00:44:25 <int-e> I had fun when I played it. Can't hurt to check a let's play video first, of course. It's less abstract than shapez.
00:44:54 <b_jonas> a junction with an input pipe, two output pipes one of which is opposite the input, and a wire input, makes for a shapez.io-like gate. there can also be other interactions of gates and wires.
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00:46:32 <int-e> I should also say that I never finished the final part (which I think is post-story) because as happens in several Zachtronics games, the tasks just get too big.
00:46:41 <int-e> (for my taste, ymmv)
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00:48:35 <shachaf> i,i is a ymmv register the VEX encoding version of a ymm register?
00:50:42 <b_jonas> and finally, you can build a shape detector, which you build not on a face but on a huge cube made of 11x11x11 cubies, not overlapping with other shape detectors. a shape detector has 97 special cubie location, the other cubies are normal. each 5x5x5 corner has 12 magic wire output cubies, 6 on the faces and 6 between the face and the center. each corner of 12 outputs information about the shape of one
00:50:48 <b_jonas> octant of a shape item. there's a special shape input cubie in the center which lets the shape detector reads the shape that goes through the pipe in the center, like shapez.io speed meters, or the current freeplay shapes, or the next freeplay shape, depending on its configuration of wires/pipes.
00:50:58 <b_jonas> I haven't figured out how you should read color information yet, this only gives the shape.
00:51:35 <b_jonas> so in the special magic cubes of a shape detector, different rules apply than in other cubies.
00:52:00 <int-e> this... sounds too difficult to play casually
00:52:24 <b_jonas> int-e: is building a MAM in shapez.io too difficult to play casually?
00:53:46 <int-e> but I know how to break it down into reasonably self-contained parts. and it's 2D so navigating the things and debugging them is ultimately not too taxing.
00:53:47 <b_jonas> but I presume you don't need the logic at first, until you want to automate freeplay levels
00:54:14 <int-e> sure, I think the logic is *meant* for people who venture into MAM territory.
00:54:47 <b_jonas> the way I imagine it, the hub always requires a very low amount of each shape, like only 10 of each shape, so you don't need too many copies of things, though there's still a range copy/paste and range delete function so you can copy blocks
00:54:57 <int-e> It's the obvious thing to do with it, since that's basically the only in-game objective.
00:55:54 <b_jonas> and I'm assuming there are no upgrade goal shapes, only level goal shapes, and the pipes have a fixed speed, and most levels don't unlock any reward other than the next level, though some early levels unlock certain mine fields so you can only mine cubes at the start
00:56:08 <b_jonas> the first shape is a full uncolored cube
00:57:00 <b_jonas> but there are also multiple level shapes accepted at a time so you can pick what you do first
00:57:37 <b_jonas> so it's more like an achievement digraph than a sequence of levels
00:58:09 <int-e> oh also note that the fact that shapez.io signals operate on items like pigments and shapes makes the logic design relatively intuitive.
00:59:04 <b_jonas> int-e: you could probably have a signal system like that here too, with two input wires and an output wire making a virtual stacker/painter/mixer, while an input wire and two output wires make a virtual cutter
00:59:14 <b_jonas> that's just not what sprang into my mind for some reason
00:59:45 <b_jonas> you need a bit more than those obviously, I'm not fully specifying the gates
01:02:01 <b_jonas> you may be right that that's a better idea
01:02:18 <b_jonas> I do know that the wire routing and logic gets very annoying and hard to debug with the shape detector that I proposed
01:03:17 <b_jonas> I did make sure that there's enough space to lead wires out of each magic cubie in a detector with some to spare, but still
01:05:23 <int-e> do you have anything like filters?
01:05:32 <b_jonas> you'd probably get hopelessly lost trying to debug your logic unless you're like one of the gods that created 6502
01:06:27 <b_jonas> though you could have boolean shape gates with two inputs and one output, picking one of two choies
01:06:47 <b_jonas> rather than just the boolean shape gates with one pipe input and two output that I mentioned before
01:06:55 <int-e> b_jonas: yeah I'd worry that the only way to manage thay would be ICFP style (write a compiler, router, etc. to do most of the work)
01:07:43 <int-e> I mean the contest, of course, not the conference
01:08:34 <b_jonas> maybe I should ditch all the pigments and color and just consider shapes
01:09:46 <b_jonas> because that's still like (1+8+12+24)^8-1 different shapes
01:10:09 <b_jonas> (one more if you allow the empty shape, whether you want that isn't obvious)
01:10:59 <b_jonas> (1+1+8+12+24)^8-1 different shapes
01:11:43 <b_jonas> less than how many shapes shapez.io has admittedly
01:12:23 <b_jonas> it would be (1+(1+8+12+24)*8)^8 with colors
01:13:17 <b_jonas> oh by the way, there are no concentric layers, the shape is just eight octant with up to one shape-octant in each, not four nested shells of this
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01:13:55 <b_jonas> the stacker only glues shapes, it doesn't put one shape inside another, and if one of the input shapes is too big then it just clogs the stacker
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01:15:06 <int-e> Hmm. I'll say this... if shapez.io didn't have the shape/pigment signals, I'd probably not have bothered with building an MAM
01:15:47 <int-e> But if you do have those, then the huge number of possible shapes becomes far less of an issue
01:16:20 <b_jonas> by the way, if you just want a Factorio/Mindustry-like game with 2D and belts working this way, with priority merges and splits and crossings working how I described (split has side output at high prio, merge has straight output with higher prio) then you'd build filter splitters (as in Factorio filter splitters or Mindustry sorters) on a cubie
01:17:07 <b_jonas> int-e: sure, but the hypothetical shapez 3D that I'm describing has orientation of the octants, which shapez.io doesn't have
01:17:42 <int-e> oh sure, I got that. I guess you're saying that that's a bit like colors
01:18:05 <b_jonas> it adds difficulty at least. I'm not sure how much it's like colors or not.
01:18:08 <int-e> in the sense that it's extra processing that has to be managed
01:18:16 <int-e> on top of just selecting the right shape
01:19:29 <b_jonas> imagine the earliest goal shapes are a full cube (teaches mining and piping), a half cube (teaches cutting), sphere, then two half-spheres touching at their round tip (teaching that stacking cares about the direction of the inputs), then you get into less and less symmetric goal shapes
01:20:32 <int-e> Produce a supply of each? Eh it's really impossible to plan without knowing what the logic layer will look like... or what kind of devices you have for rotating things etc.
01:21:17 <b_jonas> int-e: just deliver 10 of it to the hub
01:21:38 <b_jonas> I did define rotating, or try to
01:22:17 <int-e> So... when playing this, is there a reason to use the 3rd dimension for more than routing and compact standard building blocks?
01:23:08 <b_jonas> if you have a corner in a pipe, with one input pipe and one output pipe to a cubie, then it rotates the shape; while splitters, mergers, joiners, cutters, painters don't change the orientation of the octants (absolute to the playfield)
01:23:18 <int-e> (by "standard building block" I mean higher level blocks you design and copy around)
01:23:31 <b_jonas> there is a reason to use the 3rd dimension, yes:
01:23:53 <b_jonas> joiners, cutters, and rotators care about the orientation of their input pipes,
01:24:06 <int-e> Which btw is something that Infinifactory does *not* have. It's not really about throughput and replicating machinery.
01:24:52 <b_jonas> so if you have an input pipe and two output pipes, one north and one south, then it cuts the shape north-south, but if the two output pipes are west and east then it cuts east-west, and if the two output pipes are up and down then it cuts to up and down halves
01:24:59 <int-e> Hmm, there was a selection mechanism though, which I remeber using quite a bit for *moving* things. Maybe you can copy stuff too. I forgot!
01:25:41 <b_jonas> and you need to use a merge with the straight input unused to rotate your shape in a way that doesn't keep the direction facing the way the shape moves in the pipe
01:25:48 <b_jonas> that combined with a rotator
01:27:08 <b_jonas> and, while you don't necessarily need to rotate (cube or) sphere octants because you can mine all (one or) eight orientations, you do have to rotate cylinder and hexagon octants
01:27:09 <int-e> I guess the fact that the z dimension has "only" 16 layers is already the answer... at large scale this will be mostly 2D
01:27:33 <int-e> with 3D used locally
01:27:49 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, that's the big problem, it's hard to make a video game UI that displays this well, and even harder to make one that controls well
01:28:03 <int-e> it's probably hard already with 16 layers
01:28:43 <b_jonas> at least until computers get holographic displays and a bat (3D mouse that you move in 3 to 6 degrees of freedom)
01:29:06 <int-e> Even with holographic displays our perception is still largely 2D
01:29:41 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, and your muscles are 2D and you walk on 1D roads and stairs/elevators, but you can still move around a 3D building
01:29:58 <int-e> Sure, using stairs and elevators.
01:30:00 <b_jonas> but we can't build arbitrarily high yet
01:30:17 <b_jonas> so you only need to navigate like twenty-something layers at most
01:30:31 <b_jonas> more if you live in a city with skyscrapers probably
01:32:15 <b_jonas> (NET, which is among the highest buildings in Budapest, has 21 layers above ground AFAIR, perhaps some basement levels, and there's two layers of underground very close to it on the street for the metro station
01:33:15 <b_jonas> (the parliament is taller but has fewer layers, and the cathedral may or may not be taller)
01:34:43 <b_jonas> apparently like 24 or 25 layers? I'm not sure
01:35:22 <int-e> I think they're conventionally called floors
01:35:36 <int-e> though that excludes the rooftop
01:36:10 <b_jonas> so at least 26 layers on Nagyvárad tér
01:38:46 <b_jonas> I don't insist on exactly 16 layers of cubies by the way
01:40:29 <b_jonas> 11 layers is enoguh in theory, but I want to leave a bit more for convenience
01:43:04 <b_jonas> and it's likely that you would have to change much more of this to get a usable video game, or that the whole 3D shapes idea just doesn't work out, though I'm pretty sure just the belts on edges in 2D would work
01:43:40 <b_jonas> by the way in the 2D factorio-like version of this, you'd build factory buildings on a rectangle of cube tiles, and instead of inserters you lead a belt directly into or out the boundary
01:44:10 <b_jonas> so part of the belt is visible, disappearing in a gate of the building
01:45:06 <int-e> Sorry, I'll sleep now.
01:45:10 <b_jonas> in TTD/OpenTTD you build roads on edges just like this, only it's not just two but four different orientations of road on an edge, and you build a lot more things other than roads
01:45:33 <b_jonas> yeah, I should too. but we have a channel log. g'nite.
02:19:35 <b_jonas> thank you for mentioning Infinifactory. definitely worth knowing about at least.
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15:33:27 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104192&oldid=104191 * Andor ch * (+230)
15:37:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Andor ch * uploaded "[[File:Animated Cat.png]]"
15:37:47 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104194&oldid=104192 * Andor ch * (+33)
15:42:56 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104195&oldid=104194 * Andor ch * (+544)
15:43:41 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104196&oldid=104195 * Andor ch * (-8)
15:44:44 <esolangs> [[lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104197&oldid=102067 * Yes * (+171)
15:45:59 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104198&oldid=104196 * Andor ch * (+173)
15:46:19 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104199&oldid=104198 * Andor ch * (+1)
15:47:42 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104200&oldid=104199 * Andor ch * (-63)
15:48:27 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104201&oldid=104200 * Andor ch * (+1)
15:50:01 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104202&oldid=104201 * Andor ch * (+58)
15:52:27 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104203&oldid=104202 * Andor ch * (+196)
15:54:44 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104204&oldid=104203 * Andor ch * (+298)
16:06:03 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck implementations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104205&oldid=101603 * Maxdefolsch * (-23) /* Optimizing implementations */
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16:16:30 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104206&oldid=104204 * Andor ch * (+9)
16:18:02 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104207&oldid=104206 * Andor ch * (+30)
16:19:04 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104208&oldid=95115 * Andor ch * (+14) /* Input/output capabilities */
16:19:27 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104209&oldid=104207 * Andor ch * (+25)
16:21:00 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104210&oldid=104209 * Andor ch * (+31)
16:22:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104211&oldid=104208 * Andor ch * (-8)
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16:51:44 <esolangs> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104212&oldid=102066 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-202) /* Commands */
17:00:04 <esolangs> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104213&oldid=104212 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-155) /* Program structure */
17:12:44 <esolangs> [[XENBLN/Commands]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104214&oldid=102068 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-259) Update header, scroll, remove smart quotes
17:24:57 <esolangs> [[Apple3.14]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104215&oldid=79338 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Implementation */ Category
17:28:00 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckconsole74]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104216&oldid=104210 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-37) /* Metagame */ Remove nonexistent categories, fix category
17:28:08 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckconsole74]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104217&oldid=104216 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-25) /* Metagame */ .
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21:52:33 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * OrrinPants * New user account
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