< 1677204900 130831 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1677205048 31147 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1677205244 911936 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord > 1677207457 561165 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:SpaceByte@Vandlen't14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107010 5* 03SpaceByte 5* (+45) 10Creating new user page. > 1677207550 247886 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03SpaceByte 5* 10moved [[02User:SpaceByte@Vandlen't10]] to [[User:Vandlen't]]: wrong user. also gonna move the bot to it's own account > 1677207632 711724 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Vandlen't 5* 10New user account > 1677208052 290559 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107013&oldid=106998 5* 03Vandlen't 5* (+266) 10 > 1677208068 870655 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Vandlen't14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107014&oldid=107011 5* 03Vandlen't 5* (+36) 10 > 1677209134 895719 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Vandlen't14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107015&oldid=107014 5* 03Vandlen't 5* (+82) 10Changed page source. > 1677209169 556302 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Vandlen't14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107016&oldid=107015 5* 03Vandlen't 5* (+82) 10Changed page source. > 1677209415 160509 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Vandlen't14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107017&oldid=107016 5* 03Vandlen't 5* (+82) 10Changed page source. > 1677209507 610945 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Vandlen't14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107018&oldid=107017 5* 03Vandlen't 5* (+82) 10Changed page source. > 1677209585 298885 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Vandlen't14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107019&oldid=107018 5* 03Vandlen't 5* (+82) 10Changed page source. < 1677209642 863265 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer > 1677209748 464712 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Vandlen't14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107020&oldid=107019 5* 03Vandlen't 5* (+82) 10Changed page source. < 1677209885 910672 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname > 1677210083 547412 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Help14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107021&oldid=24504 5* 03Vandlen't 5* (+393) 10 > 1677210093 131097 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Help14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107022&oldid=107021 5* 03Vandlen't 5* (+7) 10 < 1677210290 279892 :razetime!~Thunderbi@117.193.1.83 JOIN #esolangs razetime :razetime < 1677210980 233476 :razetime!~Thunderbi@117.193.1.83 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1677213605 19606 :razetime!~Thunderbi@117.193.1.83 JOIN #esolangs razetime :razetime < 1677215412 596214 :razetime1!~Thunderbi@117.193.5.253 JOIN #esolangs razetime :razetime < 1677215485 8642 :razetime!~Thunderbi@117.193.1.83 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1677215485 368817 :razetime1!~Thunderbi@117.193.5.253 NICK :razetime > 1677216600 285747 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Vandlen't14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107023&oldid=107020 5* 03SpaceByte 5* (-24) 10 < 1677217745 781584 :razetime1!~Thunderbi@117.254.34.231 JOIN #esolangs razetime :razetime < 1677217803 555929 :razetime!~Thunderbi@117.193.5.253 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1677217803 811218 :razetime1!~Thunderbi@117.254.34.231 NICK :razetime < 1677218007 36300 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1677218814 477139 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1677219041 786350 :bgs!~bgs@212-85-160-171.dynamic.telemach.net JOIN #esolangs bgs :bgs < 1677220086 38628 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1677221102 239134 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1677222332 329768 :bgs!~bgs@212-85-160-171.dynamic.telemach.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1677223798 810362 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1677225689 605545 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1677226071 764893 :razetime!~Thunderbi@117.254.34.231 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1677227449 332128 :razetime!~Thunderbi@117.254.34.231 JOIN #esolangs razetime :razetime < 1677227563 614963 :b_jonas!~x@adsl-89-134-28-167.monradsl.monornet.hu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1677230415 239615 :razetime1!~Thunderbi@117.193.5.234 JOIN #esolangs razetime :razetime < 1677230465 293596 :razetime!~Thunderbi@117.254.34.231 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1677230465 663162 :razetime1!~Thunderbi@117.193.5.234 NICK :razetime < 1677230640 231416 :razetime1!~Thunderbi@117.193.5.37 JOIN #esolangs razetime :razetime < 1677230755 244158 :razetime!~Thunderbi@117.193.5.234 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1677230755 903752 :razetime1!~Thunderbi@117.193.5.37 NICK :razetime < 1677230948 238778 :razetime1!~Thunderbi@117.254.34.52 JOIN #esolangs razetime :razetime < 1677231027 225011 :razetime!~Thunderbi@117.193.5.37 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1677231027 599068 :razetime1!~Thunderbi@117.254.34.52 NICK :razetime < 1677231241 236647 :razetime1!~Thunderbi@117.193.0.221 JOIN #esolangs razetime :razetime < 1677231299 299529 :razetime!~Thunderbi@117.254.34.52 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1677231299 535174 :razetime1!~Thunderbi@117.193.0.221 NICK :razetime < 1677231508 859954 :razetime1!~Thunderbi@117.254.35.225 JOIN #esolangs razetime :razetime < 1677231571 245192 :razetime!~Thunderbi@117.193.0.221 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1677231689 870977 :razetime!~Thunderbi@117.193.2.194 JOIN #esolangs razetime :razetime < 1677231758 835701 :razetime1!~Thunderbi@117.254.35.225 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1677233018 272233 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what the zork is this, https://www.gog.com/en/game/colossal_cave < 1677233500 149000 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, it's no Zork: Grand Inquisitor. < 1677233529 526716 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I played that. < 1677233540 770497 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It was weird. < 1677233549 365436 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Enjoyable, but weird. < 1677233666 522174 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have it on, hmm, CD-ROM, I think. Not boxed, just a CD case. < 1677233745 824044 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(It's always hard to be sure whether it's CD-ROM or DVD; they look the same.) < 1677234613 126476 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas < 1677234627 115661 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: (cdrskin -minfo) with libburn installed < 1677234782 912252 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: I don't have the physical media at hand, it's buried in a box nearby. < 1677234851 201711 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Otherwise I'd probably know... there's usually a logo on the disk < 1677234866 481771 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and the case too) < 1677234895 131578 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah yes, they're certainly hard to distinguish that way < 1677235000 461063 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"usually a logo on the disk" => I think the ones that you can print on with a printer and the ones that you can kind of print on with a DVD burner if you flip the disk don't have a logo. they may still have some text on the plastic just closer to the center from where the metal film ends, but I'm not sure you can interpret that text. < 1677235124 25983 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Man, the good old days when compact discs were how you transferred data. < 1677235180 18101 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is the following true? If you have a systematic n+p erasure code, and you can recover all n data shards from any subset of n shards, then you can't recover any missing data shard from a subset smaller than n shards. < 1677235223 9161 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: Yeah, I realize that the logo is kind of optional and could be a lie. But somehow, original media tend to both include a logo and not lie ;-) < 1677235245 24308 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what does "systematic" mean in that? < 1677235255 850262 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's probably some trademark protection to ensure that. < 1677235333 793186 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasure_code#Near-optimal_erasure_codes suggests that without the systematic bit it's not true < 1677235378 632463 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, systematic means that some of the shards have the data split but without further transformed < 1677235383 186458 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: that's obviously false? imagine that you have one of the direct-mapped shards < 1677235412 192469 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah yes, int-e has a point\ < 1677235429 607629 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it would have to be a secret-sharing code, which is kind of the opposite of systematic, for that to be true < 1677235438 475730 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't follow. < 1677235455 113867 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: let's make this even more silly: imagine p = 0. < 1677235470 810677 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Then you certainly can't recover any missing data shard. < 1677235487 589501 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, that's what you mean by "missing". < 1677235498 554966 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right, I should have phrased that better. < 1677235514 534303 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Recover any data shard from a set of other shards that's smaller than n. < 1677235518 427917 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I, uh, missed that word when reading. < 1677235540 871998 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you want to recover a full shard? < 1677235559 167870 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's still not true in theory then, but may be true in practice < 1677235660 926799 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :because if you make each shard just one bit, and take a set of shards that differs in just one bit from an invalid combination, then you can recover the bit on the shard where it differs from that invalid combination < 1677235677 340434 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but this isn't a complete proof because maybe you can't slice to single bits in such a code < 1677235708 532807 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Slicing to single bits limits you severely for erasure codes. < 1677235747 858738 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: Yeah, it's true, by counting. If you have m+q < n shards, then you can fill that up to (n-q)+q = n shards filling in any values you like for the missing shards, and each of the resulting data has to correspond to data from some n original shards. < 1677235808 877042 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"the missing shards" -- I mean the n-q-m originally missing shards that you're adding when filling up. < 1677235974 29335 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :What are m and q here? < 1677235993 397803 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the number of original and parity shards that survived erasure, respectively. < 1677235999 897634 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :m <= n, q <= p < 1677236061 18656 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's not really necessary to distinguish those, I guess... but it helped me to think about this. < 1677236075 94427 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, got it. < 1677236155 786106 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see the argument. That's pretty good! < 1677236160 497398 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Are you aware of a standard convention for naming those numbers?) < 1677236191 252890 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Specifically, I guess, imagine you could recover a data shard using n-1 other shards. Then you'd have n shards, which lets you recover everything. < 1677236198 946329 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :But there should never be a situation where you can recover everything from n-1 shards. < 1677236262 604114 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Or should there? I guess that still needs to be proved but it seems more straightforward.) < 1677236265 135822 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Now that's just plain counting... B^(n-1) < B^n, where B = 2^b is the number of possible values per b-bit block. < 1677236284 759862 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :except for the useless case b = 0. < 1677236330 22665 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right, I was imagining maybe some encodings let you recover all the data from n-1 shards, but that would be magic pigeonhole-violating compression. < 1677236330 884088 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(You have a 0-bit block? Wait, don't tell me, I think it's this: ) < 1677236367 158573 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(What an amazing magical trick, amiright?) < 1677236398 713627 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I lost a (-∞)-bit block, can you figure out what its value was? < 1677236418 452782 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh wait! < 1677236419 937175 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have trouble making sense of that. < 1677236448 4434 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm making up a number of bits for an uninhabited type. < 1677236464 798982 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess calling log(0) -∞ or something. < 1677236469 670192 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway, thanks, this is great. < 1677236502 549236 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah. So it doesn't make sense in a very formal, uh, sense. < 1677236504 230776 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: if it's not an optimal erasure code, then it will store a little bit less net data than you can fit on the required number of shards, right? < 1677236584 790024 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/sense ...that desn't really help. < 1677236600 554948 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not very formal. Also, I was lying, I didn't ever have an inhabitant of an uninhabited type. I wish! < 1677236603 727881 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, "meaning". < 1677236629 469405 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It was a vacuous thought. < 1677236638 97282 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: That sounds reasonable. < 1677236711 270577 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :People *do* make codes where you can recover some shards from a smaller set of other shards. < 1677236738 71479 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I think they pay for that with needing extra shards in some other cases, for particular patterns of erasures. So you write out more data overall. < 1677236743 918016 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :That makes sense; some shards may be more important than others. < 1677236749 753032 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :E.g. https://errorcorrectionzoo.org/c/locally_recoverable < 1677236763 443276 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: And we've just proved that you do have to pay for that. < 1677236769 314652 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yep. < 1677236847 184249 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean one obvious thing you can do is to have an n+p and n'+p' code side by side. But in the worst case you only survive erasure of min(p, p') shards. < 1677236855 724482 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :So a simple thing you can do is something like this 4+3 encoding matrix: [[1 1 0 0] [0 0 1 1] [a b c d]] < 1677236864 587514 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I imagine that you can do better. < 1677236888 50750 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's an instance of that, isn't it? 1+1 side by side another 1+1 < 1677236894 574055 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :+with < 1677236904 375746 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe I misread < 1677236929 30911 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh there's a parity row, assuming [a b c d] is [1 1 1 1]? < 1677236942 985338 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, now imagine a code that's very far from optimal so you'd never use it in practice. stores two bits net in six shards, each shard one bit. the encoding is 00=>001000, 01=>010100, 10=>100010, 11=>110001, the first two bits are the systematic ones. you can recover the data from any 4 shards, but not always from 3 shards eg. 0???00 is ambiguous. < 1677236943 484180 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but you can recover all shards from just 00???? < 1677236945 928004 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think you don't want it to be [1 1 1 1], you want it to be linearly independent. < 1677236990 71294 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I should just say, you have w,x,y,z, and your shards are w+x, y+z, and aw+bx+cy+dz < 1677236997 127663 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: I guess I'm not in the mood to think this through. < 1677237021 576283 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :So if you lose one of the shards in the first or second group, you can recover with just the two others in that group. < 1677237041 616455 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also from ????00 you can recover the first shard but not the others < 1677237059 811899 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :And if you lose one shard in each group as well as a parity shard, you can still recover. < 1677237124 110130 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :But if you lose both shards in one group, and that group's parity shard or the global one, then you're stuck. So you can't recover from all 3-failures (as we know). < 1677237148 14479 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, that's a much better example! < 1677237163 470357 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :because it works regardless the data, after choosing just which shards you haven't lost < 1677237165 762576 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe the idea here is that a bunch of failures in one group are less likely than the same number of failures spread throughout your entire system. < 1677237266 728758 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So there's a (probably hard) design problem here... given n + p devices with known failure probabilities p_i (1 <= i <= n+p), design an erasure code that maximizes the probability of full recovery. < 1677237286 287790 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(not necessarily systematic) < 1677237318 603798 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Man, in the sort of context I'm normally thinking of this in, systematic codes are all that matters. < 1677237339 516381 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Though I'm not sure whether you actually get anything from being non-systematic? < 1677237343 717742 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Though I think with linear codes we can always make them systematic if we want. < 1677237362 633218 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :With linear codes certainly. < 1677237387 273176 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: that's usually the opposite of the normal assumption, which is that failures together in the same group are more likely than other failures. unless you have just four shards that form two groups in two ways so diagonal failures are less likely, but that doesn't work well for more shards. < 1677237392 797549 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Are there any non-linear codes that people use in practice? < 1677237476 20594 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm. Maybe they're useful in contexts where errors are asymmmetric (so a 1 bit is more likely to be flipped than a 0 bit, or vice versa) < 1677237479 288035 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: Is that the normal assumption? < 1677237495 239353 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think this grouping idea is probably common even with just regular erasure codes. < 1677237499 711066 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The theory I know is all linear codes anyway. < 1677237554 339046 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Except for the Hamming bound I guess, that's generic counting. < 1677237557 912510 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Say you're just duplicating your data: You choose two disks in your data center and write a copy of your data to each one. < 1677237564 343805 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :And you have lots of little files so you do this everywhere. < 1677237580 916035 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Then if any pair of disks in your data center fails, you're pretty much guaranteed to lose some data. < 1677237628 601926 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Instead, you can say: Pre-group your disks into pairs in some arbitrary way (hopefully not correlated by manufacturing data or whatever). Then when you want to write a file, always write your two copies to the disks in one of the pairs. < 1677237644 753401 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Now the failure probability should be much lower, right? < 1677237661 742093 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :But in the case of a failure you've lost a lot more data, and maybe the EV ends up being the same. < 1677237678 648368 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh wait, I do know of some non-linear codes. Stuff like MFM, which is constrained by the frequency of bit flips. Totally different context, of course. < 1677237693 549023 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :But that's good, you probably want to shift your EV into a tiny probability of catastrophic failiure, rather than high probability of a little bit of failure. < 1677237863 528133 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, I don't know this MFM thing. < 1677237942 827954 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :This, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modified_frequency_modulation < 1677238014 662142 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Notice that in this grouping scheme I described, you can lose a full 50% of your disks without losing any data. *And* you're not writing any more data than the theoretical optimal 1+1 erasure code. < 1677238075 78655 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :You're describing RAID 1 < 1677238174 613573 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure, the 1+1 bit isn't important. < 1677238189 358041 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: I think so. the ECC on CD is designed to recover data from scratches on the metal film, that causes errors close to each other. or if you send data on a bunch of cables, then the backhoe that it summons will cut several adjacent cables. or if you send data by radio from a distant spacecraft then the noise source that masks the signal will < 1677238189 857104 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :come in a spike burst that erases several bits adjacent in time. < 1677238189 976650 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can group your disks into groups of 10 and use an 8+2 code or whatever. < 1677238240 471227 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: Right, that's fair, you do want to avoid those kinds of correlated failures. I was describing a thing where you pregroup your disks randomly to avoid that. < 1677238246 505186 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, not scratches in the plastic? < 1677238276 698863 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought the metal film was reasonably well protected... until the advent of super-cheap CD-R media. < 1677238293 211053 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: more importantly, if you have data on 300 hard disks, of which 100 are WD and 100 are Samsung and 100 are whatever the third brand is, then the 100 that's from one same model will have 50 failures and the other 200 will have 2 failures < 1677238306 526592 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I'm not sure. < 1677238328 949201 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: That sounds like an argument for constructing your groups with one of each, or something. < 1677238345 288169 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Then you can lose all your thirdbrand disks and still lose no data. < 1677238377 348121 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean this might not apply now when all the hard disks are made in one factory so the whole world's modern hard disks will fail together, but even so models might differ a bit < 1677238392 366440 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Hmm, I don't know what kind of material the writable part of CD-R media uses.) < 1677238476 67326 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Technology... it's all elves and magic dust when you go deep enough. < 1677238503 743688 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: yeah, then it kind of depends on how you form the assumption. failure across your group is less likely than failure of two randomly chosen disks, so in that sense what you say is true. but I don't think that's the best way to model failures. < 1677238604 644113 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently the big manufacturers are WD, Seagate, Toshiba. not Samsung, they make solid-state drives. < 1677238751 607260 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs : shouldn've known that, I specifically bought hard disks from all three manufacturers recently, and those three were already the brands. < 1677238773 166409 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but recently means 2020-11 so not that recent < 1677238791 978789 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname < 1677238809 602873 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1677238831 104993 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: Why not? < 1677238939 251849 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1677238996 949875 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :why do we still call them "drives" < 1677239060 734469 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Actually I don't know the etymology of that in the first place. < 1677239103 129218 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas < 1677239146 678839 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, it makes sense for FDD, it's the thing that makes the disk move. And that extends to HDD. But an SSD has nothing that has to be physically moved. < 1677239220 8691 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: you should model it as the groups being in the other direction, and errors are more frequent within a group, even if that's not the same groups how you divide the data to independent parts < 1677239261 448348 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Man, modern flash is so good. < 1677239274 622400 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, in many ways it's terrible. But still. < 1677239404 394713 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Flash! A-ah! He's a miracle! < 1677239427 401233 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the "drive" is just legacy at this point, like so much other terminology that gets inherited even if it doesn't necessarily strictly make sense anymore < 1677239450 568951 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I don't think it has to have a moving part. imagine "drive" as hardware "driver". the important part is that some of the complex non-repeating part that handles the mechanics or electronic logic is in the drive (the rest are on the motherboard or extension card), while the repeating part that stores lots of raw data in bulk isn't the drive. < 1677239451 67683 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :for traditional removable media like floppy disks or tape this was obvious: the drive is everything but the tape or disk. for an SD card it's not so, the drive is mostly on the card itself, not the reader or motherboard. but part of your HDD or SSD is the drive electronics, even if it also has the non-drive storage part. for a HDD you can even < 1677239451 567860 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :replace the drive part, because it's on a PCB that you can disconnect (loses warranty but can be worth if the data is very valuable). < 1677239460 120370 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :FireFly: We could be looking at LCD tubes. :) < 1677239461 91195 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so "drive" is a metonym for the whole drive + storage thing < 1677239484 992138 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(But I guess flat screens lack the depth that we associated with the tubes.) < 1677239485 617950 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe we should call it "controller" instead of "drive" < 1677239505 414063 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :why do we still call it "taping" to record someone when it doesn't involve a tape < 1677239510 177074 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :or something* < 1677239515 408934 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :like a RAM controller, which may still be partly on the RAM PCB but partly in a separate smaller chip than the chips that store the gigabytes < 1677239520 787049 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :why do we call movies "flicks", etc < 1677239560 949546 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :FireFly: sure, probably mostly just a legacy name < 1677239618 199192 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :FireFly: Yeah, anachronisms. When was the last time you hung up on somebody? < 1677239642 587796 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION nods
< 1677239728 260019 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION . o O ( why do we call the computers that mostly go on the desk 'laptops' )
< 1677239738 527095 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, that remind me, why are monitors called "screen"? is it called that from the magic cheese grater in color CRTs that has red/green/blue colored holes in different angles through it? < 1677239746 266678 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the computers that mostly go below the desk are 'desktop' PCs < 1677239791 891502 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :mine is on the desk < 1677239804 78230 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :FireFly: we call movies "films" actually < 1677239865 144546 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also we call shops "stores", but that makes more sense because some people call workshops "shops" so it helps to distinguish them < 1677239908 883171 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :calling movies "films" seems like an anachronism too :p < 1677239940 312122 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh hello, OOM killer, you killed the right process, how did my whole session die? < 1677239952 811546 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :can't imagine many of them are shot on film anymore < 1677240053 366226 :Riviera!~Riviera@user/riviera PRIVMSG #esolangs :FireFly: https://www.imdb.com/list/ls507645320/ < 1677240072 495849 :Riviera!~Riviera@user/riviera PRIVMSG #esolangs :surely not complete, but i found this interesting < 1677240074 462754 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, well the more you know < 1677240076 528534 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :mm < 1677240324 166110 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that reminds me? can you point me to a webpage that tells about the various audio formats that films used on film? IIRC there were like five different generations of them, the first ones analog and the alter ones digital, and they cramped them to increasingly smaller unused spaces remaining on the film so they can be combined on the same film for < 1677240324 665722 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :backwards compatibility. < 1677240334 120969 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1677240375 31837 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1677240398 994613 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the first one is like a huge wide strip next to the image, then the next ones go to narrower strips that we can use with lower tolerance mechanical equipment, then one goes to the spaces between the cog holes, and I think we haven't got to the part yet where they go in the wedge of the rounded corners around the cog holes but that would probably < 1677240399 493112 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :have to be the next one < 1677240436 967579 :Riviera!~Riviera@user/riviera PRIVMSG #esolangs :come on, google :) < 1677240568 970109 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm trying. it's hard exactly because "film" is used for newer stuff that's not celluloid film and that's most of the hits < 1677240655 760764 :Riviera!~Riviera@user/riviera PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound-on-film < 1677240688 729333 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, thank you < 1677240713 345546 :Riviera!~Riviera@user/riviera PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably a good starting point, many pointers in sections "Sound-on-film formats" and "See also" < 1677240730 713060 :Riviera!~Riviera@user/riviera PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah adn the categories < 1677240776 731016 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in < 1677240867 513030 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in < 1677241374 891185 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, so there are only four areas for different sound formats apparently: one just has time code to synchronize with audio stored externally, one is the traditional backwards compatible analog one that has all sorts of variants to represent multiple sound channels, and two digital ones < 1677241402 32858 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :all this is on 35 mm film < 1677241436 541361 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and there are lots of experimental minor sound formats, some of which might use other areas or something < 1677241446 326004 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sounds like a Technology Connections YouTube video. < 1677241498 866919 :Riviera!~Riviera@user/riviera PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: haha, i just wanted to say exactly the same :DD < 1677242314 880278 :AnotherGuest67!~AnotherGu@host-79-30-66-52.retail.telecomitalia.it JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] AnotherGuest67 < 1677242692 92126 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1677243510 43999 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I wonder if there were film cameras and projectors that used a synchronized pair of films with the frames alternating on them so that the time when one film is advanced between the frames can be covered by the frame from the other film < 1677244880 544633 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, imagine that backwards. instead of digital audio encoded in unused parts of the film, the audio is analog on a vinyl disk, since all moviegoers know that vinyl disks have better audio quality than any other technology, while the video is on a tiny MicroSD card glued in a careful position of the back of the vinyl disk, and the player just < 1677244881 51613 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :aligns that and copies the gigabytes of video data to its internal memory before it spins up the disk to play the audio. < 1677245796 585216 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"film" -- at least "movie" is rather timeless :) < 1677245931 161242 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"camera" though... < 1677246115 131928 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, you were right, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg--L9TKL0I is the Technology Connections YouTube video < 1677246209 190325 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, light and sound, the marvels of electricity < 1677246279 937589 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"camera" is timeless too, that just means your photosensor is in a box where the only light can come in through the lens < 1677246298 486727 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I already know about sound on film. < 1677246347 157667 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:35mm_film_audio_macro.jpg < 1677246366 890046 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Note the backward compatibility layers. < 1677246409 134650 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yep, Riviera linked to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound-on-film which links there < 1677246630 822668 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I didn't know about the 72 Hz trick (around 5:20 in the video). < 1677247052 598934 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :pfft < 1677247065 947635 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :video gets out of sync when he mentions sound synchronization < 1677247122 287459 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: that's deliberate < 1677247128 862273 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: he specifically says afterwards < 1677247149 968868 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course < 1677247166 213485 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I laughed. < 1677247272 812438 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is a good technology connections video on that, yeah < 1677247274 94340 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Especially since this is a real life issue we sometimes have in this digital age. Which is kind of embarrassing. (Yeah, I know, separate data streams. Also, frequently, separate processing pipelines on the production side.) < 1677247279 330372 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah it was linked < 1677247314 68268 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs : "camera" though... <- they don't even have much of a chamber in them anymore... < 1677247323 126701 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :FireFly: exactly < 1677247323 344153 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :or any < 1677247363 271503 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yeah, I know. it sometimes seems to happen with capture cards. I don't understand why. < 1677247421 119839 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also I never made the connection between sound on film and the "track" in "sound track". Though magnetic tapes also have tracks. < 1677247421 354285 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :FireFly: they do have a chamber. the sensor that detects the light is inside an opaque box that ensures that light only comes in through the lens. that's still a constant in all our cameras, I believe. < 1677247451 249642 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I think "track" is from vinyl disks mainly, since the sound track is etched in it < 1677247468 925540 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least that's what I always assumed, but maybe I'm too young < 1677247493 288338 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :isn't that called a groove < 1677247500 239859 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :both < 1677247503 386235 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :a groove and a track < 1677247518 774246 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so two anachronystic English words < 1677247528 964880 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess technically there still is a chamber, it's just so small especially on modern smartphone cameras < 1677247531 156169 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the like < 1677247831 164350 :AnotherGuest67!~AnotherGu@host-79-30-66-52.retail.telecomitalia.it QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1677247857 894386 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :on modern smartphones it's small because the camera is a separately manufactured kind-of self-contained box that you may be able to replace, especially if it's not an Apple phone. I think on some photo cameras the whole chassis serves as the chamber, though I'm not sure about this < 1677247879 881635 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll have to look at a teardown video to make sure < 1677247958 432790 :razetime!~Thunderbi@117.193.2.194 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1677248028 630414 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"code unto others as you would have others code unto you"... how old is that clip? < 1677248222 210035 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I'd guess 80s < 1677248357 287262 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1677248419 608310 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"clip < 1677248436 572752 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"clip" - and another word that's been divorced from its original meaning < 1677248499 658967 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(When's the last time you've literally cut film? I don't remember ever doing that.) < 1677248514 127176 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas < 1677248548 837193 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was wrong, there's an inner dark chamber in at least the compact camera in (warning: destructive disassembly so may be painful to watch) https://youtu.be/gScwGhRSQFI?t=708 . it's more complicated for DSLRs where the light has to get into the separate viewfinder < 1677248633 798639 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah you'll typically need some distance between optics and the film or sensor. But it's so tiny these days compared to the original huge boxes. < 1677248665 632342 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh now I'm just reminded of the videogame sense of 'clipping' and I guess gamedev/speedrun terminology is another whole can of worms :p < 1677248670 488905 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :when it comes to that < 1677248677 63686 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yeah language just changes over time < 1677248686 513335 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, lots of technology got tiny. compare the first huge hard disks to current ones for example. < 1677248698 448004 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :FireFly: Hah. Well, that's a different meaning of "clip" entirely. < 1677248700 791026 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially current notebook hard disks < 1677248727 128173 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well. Hmm. I guess it still has to do with cutting things off. < 1677248728 683903 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: kinda, but I think somewhat related? < 1677248747 37822 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And then evolved from there. < 1677248747 733804 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :comes from the computer graphics sense of clipping, which descends from the film sense I'd imagine < 1677248770 444203 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :More the graphics sense than the film sense. < 1677248811 877477 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, I'm not actually sure but I figured the graphics sense comes from doing effects on film by physically cutting it < 1677248823 420913 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually, speaking of that.. burn, dodge, screen :p < 1677248837 725073 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I suppose the entire concept of 'frame' < 1677248858 548415 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The film sense cuts pieces of film to be reassembled... you'll cut between frames but it's not really about the image being displayed; the graphics sense is about picking out a subimage for a frame or possiblyu clip-art as part of another image.) < 1677248870 482398 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah right < 1677248880 461070 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or maybe both the graphics and film sense come from the ordinary gardening meaning < 1677248887 985805 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :I didn't know clip was used in that sense for film, I thought that was just a cut < 1677248894 137988 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :(between frames) < 1677248914 481716 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :(which hey, is another term in that vein too) < 1677248916 500398 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :FireFly: well twitch uses it in the film sense of cutting a part of a longer film in the time direction < 1677248934 267436 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh right, yes < 1677248937 760697 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but cutting, clipping, or pruning are basically the same < 1677248941 171502 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :FireFly: it's perfectly analogous except it works in the time dimension < 1677248951 842441 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :which graphics doesn't even have < 1677248976 568589 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION nods
< 1677248984 553571 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :even if you cut a corner with a racecar, or make a crazy clip in Mario Kart to shorten the lap to less than half, or clip out of bounds in a platformer < 1677249026 139681 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then you transfer the graphics meaning... which becomes clipping planes when doing 3D projection to collision detection, which is also about plane intersections... < 1677249067 449015 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and you end up with a quite different phenomenon that's still called "clipping" (and is actually a failure of clipping if you follow the etymology) < 1677249114 402136 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah yes, there's also clipping in the signal dimension, which means your audio or video signal goes beyond the range of what you can represent < 1677249137 315033 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :well the "cutting corners" sense comes more directly/obviously from like, cutting corners off with a scissor < 1677249144 945338 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :(in my head at least) < 1677249164 840303 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what? no! < 1677249170 91606 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :who'd cut the corners from a film? < 1677249179 298093 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wouldn't < 1677249179 663112 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cutting corners comes from driving a car or motorbike < 1677249196 243528 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :why does the car "cut"? < 1677249209 58735 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it lets you make a shortcut but means you're going off your designated part of the road which might be dangerous < 1677249221 267446 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :FireFly: Oh "clipping" has at least two meanings in that context. < 1677249232 421427 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :One where you barely touch an edge or something. < 1677249245 88029 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :isn't that what cutting a corner means? < 1677249254 777836 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And the other where you have a clipping *bug* that lets you through walls and the like. < 1677249279 772490 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: ok, and what do you call the video game bug zipping instead of clipping? < 1677249283 670708 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/what/when/ < 1677249305 90489 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't call anything zipping? < 1677249317 761767 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: yes, but in my head at least that sense of cutting a corner could come from cutting corners off of a piece of paper, replacing a 90° bend with a 45° cut that is shorter < 1677249318 532726 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Except the zip mode in Myst. < 1677249321 131779 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :but maybe that's all wrong :p < 1677249341 691753 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: it was that sense of cutting a corner that I was thinking of the etymology of (taking a shortcut) < 1677249342 558131 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess zipping is when you're out of bounds and the video game has code that is meant to put you back from slightly out of bounds to in bounds and so you move really fast out of bounds < 1677249350 42408 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And using the zip file compressor, and, well, zipping zippers on clothes. < 1677249357 878323 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think clipping can lead to zipping < 1677249376 822979 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh it's the zip line kind of zipping. < 1677249397 69411 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cut_off_a_corner < 1677249397 762851 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :FireFly: hmm, maybe the car meaning comes from the traditional meaning, but I don't often cut off a *corner* from a piece of paper so I'm not sure < 1677249408 15923 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :fair < 1677249428 136886 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :FireFly: or https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cut_corners#Verb < 1677249429 396610 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :(linking that because it's interesting it has a longer form than just "cut corner") < 1677249438 405154 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah < 1677249550 870794 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :are we verbally cutting corners? < 1677249579 498381 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ouch, no, that would cause bleeding < 1677249613 214920 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and if it's inside your mouth it can't even be bandaged properly so it's harder to heal < 1677249628 359937 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs : Oh it's the zip line kind of zipping. <- I think in games that originated with megaman, which had a bug where if you approach a wall at the right place you get quickly moved across the screen as the collision code tries to displace you < 1677249636 55257 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :...but it's possibly from ziplines < 1677249654 742998 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, there's also the meaning of just going fast < 1677249658 459186 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know. < 1677249676 70135 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :etymology is more fun when you make up half the connections yourself :) < 1677249741 123107 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs ::p < 1677249756 473481 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh... anachronisms: https://xkcd.com/890/ < 1677249767 766046 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :I found a random website of someone speculating/guessing that "cutting corners" could be from tailoring to save material < 1677249780 318298 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that's no more backed up :p < 1677249801 480135 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :but basically along the lines I was thinking, that the "cutting" of corners might be backed by physical cutting < 1677249814 883865 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and translated to shortcuts by analogy) < 1677249837 313217 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :(... I suppose even the word "shortcut" ...) < 1677249926 604978 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think that makes too much sense. how would corners help in that? < 1677249994 901217 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, I'm not sure either < 1677250007 730374 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The racing story (you have a track to follow; it's shorter if you cut a corner) is so damn plausible. < 1677250027 664871 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: sure, but why is that called "cut"? < 1677250048 739888 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :because it looks like you're cutting off a corner? < 1677250104 54485 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also... shortcut. Which may be circular. < 1677250129 639680 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's things like "cutting through the woods" < 1677250130 503081 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :conveniently a shortcut is the shortest cut you can make, like, mathematically :p < 1677250139 709813 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which might be related? < 1677250150 545848 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :true, I wonder what order those came in though < 1677250156 140132 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :I could see "cutting" as short for "shortcutting" < 1677250164 588798 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :clipping (heh) the word < 1677250165 542151 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that one might be from cutting down trees to make a path < 1677250176 83241 :craigo_!~craigo@180-150-37-12.b49625.bne.nbn.aussiebb.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname < 1677250179 51911 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and now we're truly going in circles) < 1677250180 982329 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or brush, at least < 1677250202 125000 :craigo_!~craigo@180-150-37-12.b49625.bne.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1677250202 402432 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is something you might even do with a sword rather than axes or saws < 1677250209 387496 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :FireFly: "cutting" for "shortcutting" is not an explanation, you still have to explain why "shortcutting" is called that instead of "shortgoing" or somethi8ng < 1677250232 382941 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, I just mean that the "cutting through the woods" might be more recent < 1677250243 222126 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway, I'm firmly back at "I don't know". But it's still fun to speculate. < 1677250245 198704 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I'm just pseculating < 1677250248 617522 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :speculating* < 1677250251 493783 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :yep < 1677250262 885643 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :what's the german word for a shortcut? < 1677250288 213033 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I saw a discussion recently on what meaning of "wing" came from which other meaning < 1677250309 810208 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :right-wing party? < 1677250328 580131 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry, I mean as a verb < 1677250358 921112 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :what other sense than to "wing it" as in improvise? < 1677250372 341905 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(clearly that's people gathering and having fun in the right part of a building, while the left part complains about the noise and vouches to have a left-wing party some day) < 1677250392 26671 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1677250439 973618 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"winging it" is a good one... I have no theory for that one < 1677250468 823564 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't remember, something about almost crashing or crashing with a vehicle (presumably originally an airplane that has a wing) or missing or almost missing the vehicle with a missile < 1677250481 719620 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :something something world war I air fights something < 1677250519 108522 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I typed that before I read wib_jonas's message) < 1677250544 747866 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://english.stackexchange.com/a/353390 oh fun < 1677250556 330008 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :[ORIGIN: from theatrical slang, originally meaning [to play a role without properly knowing the text] (either by relying on a prompter in the wings or by studying the part in the wings between scenes).] < 1677250578 469771 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :so truly from a "fuck it, we'll do it live" sense :p < 1677250595 232481 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"prompter in the wings" < 1677250610 405954 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that works < 1677250923 480089 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I was recently looking up and talking about elsewhere something about chess. so there's this semi-mythical story where the ancestor of chess the game comes from India, and the pieces represent the four "branches of military": pawns for infantry, knights for cavalry, bishops for elephantry, and rooks for chariotry (represented by a camel). < 1677250923 979064 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :except that some websites say, equally confidently, that the rooks come from elephantry and the bishops from chariotry. I only found one website that mentions both and confronts the ambiguity of what the elephant represents. < 1677251073 194648 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's evidence for both. the modern name of the bishop comes from words from elephants in french and russian and more languages. but there are also claims that in some indian languages it's the name of the rook that's comes from the elephant. there are old chess sets that use an elephant to represent one of the rook or bishop, and in at least one < 1677251073 693578 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the elephant clearly represents the rook (usually I can't tell from looking at the figures which represents which). and it gets muddled because sometimes the king and queen (or just one) are represented by elephants, or that plus the bishop or knight. < 1677251131 581411 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it gets especially funny when they claim that the elephant originally represented a piece that's the precursor of the bishop that moves exactly two squares diagonally and, according to some sources and/or in some variants, it can leap over a chess piece doing that. < 1677251208 384071 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :http://history.chess.free.fr/india.htm is the one website that mentions the ambiguity of which piece the elephant represents < 1677251303 653211 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, and it gets hard to search because "elephant chess" usually takes you to some opening called the "elephant gambit". the name of that may be related to the piece, whichever it is, but that doesn't help. < 1677252777 585141 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :question. how do I clone a remote git repository, but filter out some subdirectories that have too much data, to conserve disk space, because the maintainer put large files that I don't need into a git repository together with small files that are useful for me < 1677252784 714975 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1677253068 140111 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm https://git-scm.com/docs/git-sparse-checkout has positive and negative patterns in its cone mode < 1677253138 659643 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But does that only work with checkouts or does it also prune the store? Idon'tknow. < 1677253139 218348 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: isn't that only for workspaces as opposed to the objects stored in my repo? < 1677253142 530991 :sknebel!~quassel@v22016013254630973.happysrv.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :git clone --filter can do it, and e.. filter files over a certain sizes < 1677253236 402707 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sknebel: I'll look at that, thank you. < 1677253282 82987 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, --filter doesn't seem to support path names? < 1677253330 987743 :bgs!~bgs@212-85-160-171.dynamic.telemach.net JOIN #esolangs bgs :bgs < 1677253634 412120 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, probably because it filters individual objects, and those don't have path information in them < 1677253651 222861 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, not quite < 1677253653 161188 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Mercurial can do narrow clones with path-based inclusion/exclusion. < 1677253663 949251 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Doesn't help much with a Git repo, of course. < 1677253668 562207 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently it does do some recursive thingy < 1677253685 150690 :sknebel!~quassel@v22016013254630973.happysrv.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah right. afaik you need to combine filter and sparse-checkout < 1677253702 486979 :sknebel!~quassel@v22016013254630973.happysrv.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :using filter to prevent the blobs being downloaded in the initial clone < 1677253719 697630 :sknebel!~quassel@v22016013254630973.happysrv.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then sparse checkout to only checkout (and thus force to be downloaded) what you need < 1677253736 286030 :sknebel!~quassel@v22016013254630973.happysrv.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :and no, none of this is particularly user-friendly ... < 1677253796 533055 :sknebel!~quassel@v22016013254630973.happysrv.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/topics/git/partial_clone.html#filter-by-file-path < 1677253796 934551 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1677253799 847230 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: well that depends on how much git compatibility Mercurial has. git has an open format so multiple vc software read it, but usually they read it just enough to say you can convert your existing git repo to their repo once. < 1677253801 486097 :sknebel!~quassel@v22016013254630973.happysrv.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :something like that < 1677253829 685244 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sknebel: ah, also looks useful < 1677254216 700969 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1677254686 202558 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks for the hints < 1677254688 570368 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed > 1677256507 767585 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bruhfunk14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107024&oldid=105541 5* 03Nurdle 5* (+0) 10/* External Resources */ < 1677257298 596677 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, --filter reads a specification from a blob. So you have to dump a file into the repo (not necessarily in the master branch) that contains a spec like '/*\n!/excluded-directory', then refer to it when cloning like `git clone file://src dst --filter=sparse:oid=sparse:sparse --sparse, and then populate .git/info/sparse (say, git cat-file sparse:sparse-checkout > .git/info/sparse-checkout , and... < 1677257304 594150 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :...then checkout. Oh and this only works if the source repo enables uploadpack.allowFilter) < 1677257307 586588 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So complicated! < 1677257420 914125 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe even --global if it's remote? Unclear; my test seems to have worked with a local setting, but I only used file://. < 1677257796 6143 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also works for ssh protocol; I guess the global option remark is for serving via https, where repo configurations may be untrusted. < 1677259042 4797 :b_jonas!~x@adsl-89-134-28-167.monradsl.monornet.hu JOIN #esolangs * :b_jonas < 1677259387 242229 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown < 1677261451 26568 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1677269418 678618 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1677269496 838527 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a JOIN #esolangs fungot :fungot-0.1 < 1677270236 689912 :b_jonas!~x@adsl-89-134-28-167.monradsl.monornet.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :can you turn any file into a zip file containing it by just reading it and appending to it, i.e. in place and writing nowhere but past its original end? < 1677270386 487235 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think there's a mandatory "local" per-file header in front of each file entry. < 1677270399 406322 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(In addition to the central directory at the back.) < 1677270445 371773 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZIP_(file_format)#Local_file_header "-- is immediately followed by the compressed data." < 1677270452 603762 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :So I suspect the answer is no, sad as it is. < 1677270517 156475 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Unless you count writing a (potentially compressed) redundant copy of the original file past its original end, but that seems like it shouldn't count. > 1677270855 33303 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07OISC14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107025&oldid=106556 5* 03Joaozin003 5* (+1) 10/* List of OISCs */ < 1677271959 32461 :b_jonas!~x@adsl-89-134-28-167.monradsl.monornet.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see < 1677271996 180747 :b_jonas!~x@adsl-89-134-28-167.monradsl.monornet.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :pity with the global header being at the end < 1677273645 753800 :b_jonas!~x@adsl-89-134-28-167.monradsl.monornet.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1677275450 526191 :bgs!~bgs@212-85-160-171.dynamic.telemach.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1677276622 978007 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :One of these days I'll actually get a rsync command correct the first time around. I keep forgetting how it interprets a trailing slash in the source/destination specification. < 1677279764 543003 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1677280538 549125 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a JOIN #esolangs fungot :fungot-0.1 < 1677280912 166097 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :you and me both < 1677280947 514148 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least GNU tar(1) is easier these days, you can just tar xf and have it handle compression automagically < 1677281412 33870 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname < 1677281420 682634 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer