> 1679098101 997218 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07InfiniTick14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107513&oldid=50781 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+172) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the InfiniTick programming language on GitHub.
> 1679098121 946749 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07InfiniTick14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107514&oldid=107513 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+88) 10Added categories to the page.
> 1679098334 27267 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07InfiniTick14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107515&oldid=107514 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+586) 10Reformatted the command table.
> 1679098641 89822 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07InfiniTick14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107516&oldid=107515 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+849) 10Added an examples section with two initial members, the first constituting a Hello, world! program, the second an ASCII character printer.
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< 1679110289 362401 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :What OSes allow shared libraries to rename functions while being binary compatible? Like, Amiga renamed OpenLibrary to OldOpenLibrary and made a new OpenLibrary, to fix a bug that couldn't be backwardly-compatibly fixed (it takes a version parameter, but the old one ignored it)
< 1679110317 376020 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wait, no, the signature changed. The old one didn't take a version number at all
< 1679110361 766748 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :...hm, actually I'm not sure. The OldOpenLibrary docs don't list a second parameter, but maybe it took and ignored it, and that's effectively equivalent
< 1679110365 236475 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :http://amigadev.elowar.com/read/ADCD_2.1/Includes_and_Autodocs_3._guide/node0220.html
< 1679110698 367260 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Import-by-ordinal is/was the standard practice of how to use DLLs on Windows, I believe, and allows for that.
< 1679110791 598029 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :And of course there's symbol versioning support on GNU/Linux.
< 1679111086 919654 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, I thought Windows typically exported and imported by name
< 1679111143 400384 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is that symbol versioning an ELF thing? I don't know much about it
< 1679111155 166706 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know it supports both. And I was under the impression that ordinals were commonly used. But that's just a rumour.
< 1679111183 108649 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Saves space and all that.
< 1679111309 135943 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Symbol versioning is... well, I think it's more or less a GNU thing.
< 1679111315 457909 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Though https://sourceware.org/binutils/docs/ld/VERSION.html suggests they got the idea from Sun.
< 1679111467 14936 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Apparently at least some BSDs have picked it up too, judging from https://wiki.freebsd.org/SymbolVersioning
< 1679112817 836379 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm still unsure why an OS would need both relocation and virtual memory. If it has virtual memory, the executable can be placed whereever it expects to be placed. If it has relocation, nothing too wrong with a flat address space (I guess that's the Amiga model. Oh, or the program can use PIC apparently)
< 1679112843 482837 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd love to read comparisons about how executables and shared libraries work between systems
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< 1679121595 811397 :b_jonas!~x@adsl-89-134-29-3.monradsl.monornet.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: the unix solution for that is to keep the names of the linked symbols but have the renaming done in the headers
< 1679121743 431786 :b_jonas!~x@adsl-89-134-29-3.monradsl.monornet.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but usually just don't rename, pick a new name (or new mangled name for languages that mangle)
< 1679121904 630544 :b_jonas!~x@adsl-89-134-29-3.monradsl.monornet.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and put a depreciation warning on the old function that points to the new incompatible one
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> 1679159867 648000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107517&oldid=107407 5* 03Tesolang 5* (+6) 10/* > */
> 1679162164 621212 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107518&oldid=107517 5* 03Tesolang 5* (+213) 10/*  */
> 1679162179 517116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107519&oldid=107518 5* 03Tesolang 5* (-2) 10/*  */
> 1679162190 927020 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107520&oldid=107519 5* 03Tesolang 5* (-19) 10/*  */
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< 1679166615 671207 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess memory protection is more to prevent accidents? Like Windows will stop pointers to other programs from being meaningful, but any program can just ask politely for memory access to other programs and be granted it. Although I guess that's changing in mobile and with Windows 10/11 "apps"
< 1679166731 415793 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Accidents and attacks. No clue what the Windows angle is here.
< 1679166736 744626 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know about Windows, but I'd be surprised if that would be allowed cross security contexts no matter how politely you ask.
< 1679166781 693120 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :For the same user (for some definition of "user"), probably, since that's how I think cheat programs tend to work? 
< 1679166791 839802 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Beyond the fact that it's an OS, so it's supposed to enforce security boundaries, and memory protection is a large part of that story.)
< 1679166886 413988 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, thinking of the same user/cheat program story
< 1679166912 257114 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :On Linux, I believe you have to go through the 'ptrace' mechanism to inspect other processes' memory, and a lot of distributions "recently" (some years back) started turning on ptrace restrictions by default, so that you can only trace your own descendants, or processes that specifically cooperate with you.
< 1679166948 571803 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/security/Yama.txt <- that thing.
< 1679166991 240060 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"ask politely" -- of course any program can expose a protocol for external access to internals.
< 1679167002 408159 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Meant ask the OS politely
> 1679167023 593394 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cammy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107521&oldid=107413 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1102) 10/* Syntax */ Document the theory of jets.
< 1679167055 218087 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think a lot of companies would prefer if most users used an OS where Cheat Engine couldn't work, and I think most users wouldn't care about being hamstrung that way.
< 1679167060 230032 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or you can load a program into your own address space and patch it and manipulate it that way. Or fully emulate it.
< 1679167104 980119 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the dream of "trusted computing"
< 1679167120 81913 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? trusted
< 1679167122 959718 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :trusted? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1679167159 932669 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? trust
< 1679167162 160252 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :trust? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1679167171 777724 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's no such thing as trust, apparently.
< 1679167173 199472 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(A trusted component is a component that can break security.)
< 1679167202 38956 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I may soon have a spare, not particularly powerful computer (my current laptop that I only use for Parsec streaming my desktop is dying. Bought a new laptop, and am going to try to have this one repaired under warranty)
< 1679167208 295934 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The thing about the word "trust" is that it doesn't specify who trusts whom or what.
< 1679167210 397241 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Half wondering if I should put Icaros Desktop on it
< 1679167234 678646 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm currently finding Amiga fascinating, but will probably lose interest at some point
< 1679167244 625624 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :In the "trusted computing" context it's largely about third parties trusting your hardware, bypassing you as the user.
< 1679168535 626886 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I like how Amiga uses logical devices, like C: being the equivalent of PATH, that can be assigned to different physical locations (or I think multiple)
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