←2023-03-17 2023-03-18 2023-03-19→ ↑2023 ↑all
00:08:21 <esolangs> [[InfiniTick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107513&oldid=50781 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+172) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the InfiniTick programming language on GitHub.
00:08:41 <esolangs> [[InfiniTick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107514&oldid=107513 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+88) Added categories to the page.
00:12:14 <esolangs> [[InfiniTick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107515&oldid=107514 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+586) Reformatted the command table.
00:17:21 <esolangs> [[InfiniTick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107516&oldid=107515 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+849) Added an examples section with two initial members, the first constituting a Hello, world! program, the second an ASCII character printer.
01:48:15 -!- simcop2387 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:48:48 -!- perlbot has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3+b4 - https://znc.in).
02:01:00 -!- simcop2387 has joined.
02:02:54 -!- perlbot has joined.
02:30:03 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
02:30:21 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
02:31:23 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
03:31:29 <Sgeo> What OSes allow shared libraries to rename functions while being binary compatible? Like, Amiga renamed OpenLibrary to OldOpenLibrary and made a new OpenLibrary, to fix a bug that couldn't be backwardly-compatibly fixed (it takes a version parameter, but the old one ignored it)
03:31:57 <Sgeo> Wait, no, the signature changed. The old one didn't take a version number at all
03:32:41 <Sgeo> ...hm, actually I'm not sure. The OldOpenLibrary docs don't list a second parameter, but maybe it took and ignored it, and that's effectively equivalent
03:32:45 <Sgeo> http://amigadev.elowar.com/read/ADCD_2.1/Includes_and_Autodocs_3._guide/node0220.html
03:38:18 <fizzie> Import-by-ordinal is/was the standard practice of how to use DLLs on Windows, I believe, and allows for that.
03:39:51 <fizzie> And of course there's symbol versioning support on GNU/Linux.
03:44:46 <Sgeo> Hmm, I thought Windows typically exported and imported by name
03:45:43 <Sgeo> Is that symbol versioning an ELF thing? I don't know much about it
03:45:55 <fizzie> I know it supports both. And I was under the impression that ordinals were commonly used. But that's just a rumour.
03:46:23 <fizzie> Saves space and all that.
03:48:29 <fizzie> Symbol versioning is... well, I think it's more or less a GNU thing.
03:48:35 <fizzie> Though https://sourceware.org/binutils/docs/ld/VERSION.html suggests they got the idea from Sun.
03:51:07 <fizzie> Apparently at least some BSDs have picked it up too, judging from https://wiki.freebsd.org/SymbolVersioning
04:13:37 <Sgeo> I'm still unsure why an OS would need both relocation and virtual memory. If it has virtual memory, the executable can be placed whereever it expects to be placed. If it has relocation, nothing too wrong with a flat address space (I guess that's the Amiga model. Oh, or the program can use PIC apparently)
04:14:03 <Sgeo> I'd love to read comparisons about how executables and shared libraries work between systems
05:45:15 -!- craigo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
05:55:12 -!- slavfox has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in).
05:59:18 -!- slavfox has joined.
06:39:55 <b_jonas> Sgeo: the unix solution for that is to keep the names of the linked symbols but have the renaming done in the headers
06:42:23 <b_jonas> but usually just don't rename, pick a new name (or new mangled name for languages that mangle)
06:45:04 <b_jonas> and put a depreciation warning on the old function that points to the new incompatible one
07:20:19 -!- tromp has joined.
09:17:36 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
09:57:18 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
10:18:02 -!- genpaku has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
10:18:51 -!- genpaku has joined.
10:21:36 -!- sprout_ has changed nick to sprout.
10:32:42 -!- tromp has joined.
11:59:25 -!- craigo has joined.
12:07:14 -!- craigo has quit (Quit: Leaving).
13:31:12 -!- craigo has joined.
13:49:54 -!- op_4 has quit (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in).
13:50:36 -!- op_4 has joined.
13:56:34 -!- Noisytoot has changed nick to [.
14:22:53 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
14:44:44 -!- craigo has quit (Quit: Leaving).
15:13:35 -!- [ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:15:47 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
16:33:51 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:17:47 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107517&oldid=107407 * Tesolang * (+6) /* > */
17:56:04 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107518&oldid=107517 * Tesolang * (+213) /* */
17:56:19 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107519&oldid=107518 * Tesolang * (-2) /* */
17:56:30 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107520&oldid=107519 * Tesolang * (-19) /* */
18:10:02 -!- simcop2387 has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3+b4 - https://znc.in).
18:10:26 -!- perlbot has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3+b4 - https://znc.in).
18:11:08 -!- perlbot has joined.
18:11:49 -!- simcop2387 has joined.
18:14:51 -!- simcop2387 has quit (Client Quit).
18:15:11 -!- simcop2387 has joined.
18:16:09 -!- perlbot has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3+b4 - https://znc.in).
18:17:17 -!- perlbot has joined.
18:39:31 -!- perlbot has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3+b4 - https://znc.in).
18:42:22 -!- perlbot has joined.
19:08:21 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:10:15 <Sgeo> I guess memory protection is more to prevent accidents? Like Windows will stop pointers to other programs from being meaningful, but any program can just ask politely for memory access to other programs and be granted it. Although I guess that's changing in mobile and with Windows 10/11 "apps"
19:12:11 <int-e> Accidents and attacks. No clue what the Windows angle is here.
19:12:16 <fizzie> I don't know about Windows, but I'd be surprised if that would be allowed cross security contexts no matter how politely you ask.
19:13:01 <fizzie> For the same user (for some definition of "user"), probably, since that's how I think cheat programs tend to work?
19:13:11 <int-e> (Beyond the fact that it's an OS, so it's supposed to enforce security boundaries, and memory protection is a large part of that story.)
19:14:46 <Sgeo> Yeah, thinking of the same user/cheat program story
19:15:12 <fizzie> On Linux, I believe you have to go through the 'ptrace' mechanism to inspect other processes' memory, and a lot of distributions "recently" (some years back) started turning on ptrace restrictions by default, so that you can only trace your own descendants, or processes that specifically cooperate with you.
19:15:48 <fizzie> https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/security/Yama.txt <- that thing.
19:16:31 <int-e> "ask politely" -- of course any program can expose a protocol for external access to internals.
19:16:42 <Sgeo> Meant ask the OS politely
19:17:03 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107521&oldid=107413 * Corbin * (+1102) /* Syntax */ Document the theory of jets.
19:17:35 <Sgeo> I think a lot of companies would prefer if most users used an OS where Cheat Engine couldn't work, and I think most users wouldn't care about being hamstrung that way.
19:17:40 <int-e> Or you can load a program into your own address space and patch it and manipulate it that way. Or fully emulate it.
19:18:24 <int-e> the dream of "trusted computing"
19:18:40 <int-e> `? trusted
19:18:42 <HackEso> trusted? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
19:19:19 <int-e> `? trust
19:19:22 <HackEso> trust? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
19:19:31 <fizzie> There's no such thing as trust, apparently.
19:19:33 <int-e> (A trusted component is a component that can break security.)
19:20:02 <Sgeo> I may soon have a spare, not particularly powerful computer (my current laptop that I only use for Parsec streaming my desktop is dying. Bought a new laptop, and am going to try to have this one repaired under warranty)
19:20:08 <int-e> The thing about the word "trust" is that it doesn't specify who trusts whom or what.
19:20:10 <Sgeo> Half wondering if I should put Icaros Desktop on it
19:20:34 <Sgeo> I'm currently finding Amiga fascinating, but will probably lose interest at some point
19:20:44 <int-e> In the "trusted computing" context it's largely about third parties trusting your hardware, bypassing you as the user.
19:42:15 <Sgeo> I like how Amiga uses logical devices, like C: being the equivalent of PATH, that can be assigned to different physical locations (or I think multiple)
19:52:10 -!- perlbot has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3+b4 - https://znc.in).
19:52:45 -!- simcop2387 has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3+b4 - https://znc.in).
19:53:08 -!- simcop2387 has joined.
19:53:36 -!- perlbot has joined.
19:57:12 -!- simcop2387 has quit (Client Quit).
19:58:28 -!- perlbot_ has joined.
19:58:31 -!- perlbot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:58:48 -!- simcop2387 has joined.
19:59:21 -!- perlbot_ has changed nick to perlbot.
20:04:07 -!- perlbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:04:07 -!- simcop2387 has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3+b4 - https://znc.in).
20:09:37 -!- perlbot has joined.
20:14:17 -!- simcop2387 has joined.
20:14:42 -!- perlbot has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:16:58 -!- perlbot has joined.
20:20:47 -!- simcop2387 has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3+b4 - https://znc.in).
20:21:11 -!- simcop2387 has joined.
20:32:10 -!- perlbot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:32:46 -!- simcop2387 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:42:20 -!- perlbot has joined.
20:45:26 -!- simcop2387 has joined.
20:50:11 -!- perlbot has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3+b4 - https://znc.in).
20:50:59 -!- perlbot has joined.
21:10:03 -!- simcop2387 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:10:46 -!- perlbot has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:12:55 -!- simcop2387 has joined.
21:14:24 -!- perlbot has joined.
21:33:07 -!- simcop2387 has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3+b4 - https://znc.in).
21:34:27 -!- perlbot has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3+b4 - https://znc.in).
21:38:40 -!- perlbot has joined.
21:42:03 -!- simcop2387 has joined.
22:26:17 -!- perlbot has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3+b4 - https://znc.in).
22:29:18 -!- simcop2387 has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3+b4 - https://znc.in).
22:39:14 -!- perlbot has joined.
22:50:23 -!- simcop2387 has joined.
22:51:52 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:24:47 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Excess Flood).
23:26:00 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
23:46:49 -!- razetime has joined.
←2023-03-17 2023-03-18 2023-03-19→ ↑2023 ↑all