< 1681344160 933659 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1681344175 181421 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1681344242 3414 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1681345995 572073 :user3456!user3456@user/user3456 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1681353037 713614 :razetime!~Thunderbi@43.254.111.18 JOIN #esolangs razetime :razetime < 1681353072 403200 :razetime!~Thunderbi@43.254.111.18 QUIT :Client Quit > 1681356327 314093 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Heptor14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108013&oldid=87503 5* 03Heptor 5* (-63) 10Blanked the page > 1681356409 849692 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Balt 5* 10New user account > 1681356548 9594 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108014&oldid=107994 5* 03Balt 5* (+176) 10 < 1681359286 406188 :slavfox!~slavfox@93.158.232.111 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in < 1681359559 653863 :slavfox!~slavfox@93.158.232.111 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox < 1681361014 243012 :user3456!user3456@user/user3456 JOIN #esolangs user3456 :user3456 < 1681361587 198625 :bgs!~bgs@212-85-160-171.dynamic.telemach.net JOIN #esolangs bgs :bgs < 1681364881 201916 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1681364940 1190 :m5zs7k!aquares@web10.mydevil.net JOIN #esolangs m5zs7k :m5zs7k < 1681365596 375100 :bgs!~bgs@212-85-160-171.dynamic.telemach.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1681366844 206827 :fowl!~fowlmouth@user/fowl QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1681367310 191437 :fowl!~fowlmouth@user/fowl JOIN #esolangs fowl :fowlmouth < 1681368222 164698 :fowl1!~fowlmouth@user/fowl JOIN #esolangs fowl :fowlmouth < 1681368320 232982 :fowl!~fowlmouth@user/fowl QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1681368320 278230 :fowl1!~fowlmouth@user/fowl NICK :fowl < 1681370157 563137 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1681375506 132437 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas < 1681380417 868082 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown < 1681381072 588546 :ddccdd!~u@154.91.165.83.dynamic.reverse-mundo-r.com JOIN #esolangs * :n < 1681388220 318723 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed > 1681388299 645638 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LogicGate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108015&oldid=107870 5* 03Taokyle 5* (-13) 10/* Runner */ > 1681393686 375224 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Peepoostpin 5* 10New user account < 1681396159 642565 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1681398177 860377 :wpa!uid568065@id-568065.helmsley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs WeepingAngel :wpa < 1681398891 130207 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas > 1681402429 353621 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IBSA14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108016&oldid=107988 5* 03Simple9371 5* (+245) 10Complete Turing-completeness proof > 1681403279 947723 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IBSA14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108017&oldid=108016 5* 03Simple9371 5* (-24) 10/* Computational class */ Comment on successful halt > 1681404009 748711 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Simple937114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108018&oldid=107946 5* 03Simple9371 5* (+31) 10Add IBSA < 1681404446 578797 :ddccdd!~u@154.91.165.83.dynamic.reverse-mundo-r.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :what is the difference between a stack-based language and a language that passes arguments in the stack? > 1681404460 474302 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IBSA14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108019&oldid=108017 5* 03Simple9371 5* (+3) 10/* A complete code */ obj0.! > obj0.01 > 1681404668 744881 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IBSA14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108020&oldid=108019 5* 03Simple9371 5* (+3) 10/* Documentation */ Oops... applied previous edit to other parts < 1681405580 454010 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1681408318 672452 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.214.205.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull < 1681410733 702379 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Can GCC be told to refuse to load files with non-ASCII characters in them (including files loaded by #include, but not by #embed)? > 1681411688 462102 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Infinite state machine14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=108021 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+2954) 10Create page < 1681412330 937799 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I don't think so, but you can ask gcc to list all the files that it's including, and then read those files to check for that condition. and yes, there's a race condition in that. > 1681412790 507397 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Stkptr14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108022&oldid=107997 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+344) 10Add proof target bookmarks < 1681416060 384188 :ddccdd!~u@154.91.165.83.dynamic.reverse-mundo-r.com QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1681416162 55524 :wpa!uid568065@id-568065.helmsley.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity > 1681416867 440116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:414]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=108023 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+2022) 10/* Proof of Turing completeness */ new section > 1681417208 387345 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:414]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108024&oldid=108023 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+3) 10Fix the general structure > 1681417297 899054 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108025&oldid=101593 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+276) 10Clarify computational class > 1681417624 308440 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108026&oldid=108024 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+0) 10/* Proof of Turing completeness */ re-sign < 1681417732 117854 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1681417758 535107 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse > 1681417762 961329 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Stkptr14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108027&oldid=108022 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+180) 10Add stuff > 1681417964 223458 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Cratefuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108028&oldid=107999 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+0) 10/* Proof of Turing completeness */ Fix signature > 1681418067 130611 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Stkptr14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108029&oldid=108027 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+96) 10 < 1681419300 622306 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1681419313 82981 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: gcc can be, you want the option «-finput-charset=ascii» < 1681419369 121700 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, it seems that the errors from that don't show line numbers, because if gcc can't decode the input it can't figure out where the line endings are < 1681419375 592439 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you get some very abrupt error messages < 1681419498 567134 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: huh, good point, I haven't found that option < 1681419512 533076 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :good to know < 1681419539 774263 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it's an option to the preprocessor rather than the compiler (which makes sense if you think about it) < 1681419560 263812 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I only remembered it because I read the entire documentation for GNU cpp a few days ago (for an unrelated reason) < 1681419605 706107 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so apparently by default gcc also assumes that your source files are encoded in locale-dependent encoding? that's crazy. I knew that javac did that and have seen a java program that can't be compiled unless you set the locale correctly, but I thought gcc would just always assume utf-8 (at least for C or C++ source files) < 1681419652 353957 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: default seems to be "locale, or UTF-8 if the locale doesn't specify" < 1681419699 490380 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: is there some way to specify the encoding in the source file, short of escaping every non-ascii character? < 1681419701 880229 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and if you think about it, on a computer system where the locale isn't UTF-8, most files will be expected to be non-UTF-8 because programs will be using the locale encoding to read and write them < 1681419704 807695 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :specify utf-8 encoding that is < 1681419729 399677 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: not as far as I know < 1681419739 812513 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there doesn't seem to be an equivalent to Perl's "use utf8" < 1681419747 644999 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(which is somewhat confusingly named) < 1681419790 132696 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: maybe, but I'm not sure that argument applies to C or C++ sourrce files. you rarely have a locale-aware program write a C or C++ source file. < 1681419850 694491 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this reminds me of the difference between text and binary files – theoretically a file that states "this file is encoded in UTF-8" isn't actually a text file < 1681419850 737968 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because text files can be re-encoded into an encoding that contains all the same characters without changing their meaning < 1681419850 738028 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1681419866 752982 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1681419875 918295 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: aren't most editors locale-aware? < 1681419898 587336 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm fairly sure yacc is locale-aware (I wrote ayacc against the POSIX yacc specification and had to include locale-handling code in order to match it) < 1681419933 721949 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…and if you try to write a C program on an EBCDIC system, you'd better respect the locale or nothing will be able to read it < 1681419946 805517 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(that said, I don't think EBCDIC is at all widely used nowadays) < 1681419954 611546 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but this used to be a real issue at one point) < 1681420045 294622 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently python assumes that source files are utf-8 by default, but you can override this with a magic comment in the file if you really want; but stdout is assumed to be locale-encoded instead if it's a regular file < 1681420095 777981 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Rust ignores locale, I think intentionally < 1681420121 871927 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although it lets you get at the raw bits of things like command-line arguments, so that you can decode them yourself if you need to and don't expect them to be UTF-8 < 1681420175 697827 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what about esolangs? I've been writing a BF interpreter that reads the input in binary and assumes an ASCII-compatible encoding < 1681420183 618192 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"raw bits of things like command-line arguments" => sure, it's a general-purpose low-level language so it has to allow that sort of operating system interaction, would be silly not to < 1681420218 510274 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I'm not sure that's what most interpreters do (I think if you compile a typical BF interpreter on an EBCDIC system it'll read the program in EBCDIC) < 1681420384 15014 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :dunno, I kind of don't care enough about EBCDIC to support it as a language in which you can write source files, though of course an intercal interpreter/compiler should probably support that for flavor reasons < 1681420431 482579 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :CLC-INTERCAL uses EBCDIC "natively" in some sense, I think < 1681420436 907843 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :possibly as an internal representation? < 1681420460 770205 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I'll probably specify consumer society such that the source file needs to have an ascii-compatible encoding, as in no ebcdic or utf-16, but utf-8 or cp1252 etc are allowed < 1681420488 749753 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Perl's default encoding appears to be "unspecified ASCII-compatible 8-bit character set" < 1681420524 372913 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: it uses EBCDIC natively in that the bookworm operator is written with a character that isn't in ASCII < 1681420563 702368 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah yes < 1681420584 25203 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :intercal supports an ASCII replacement for it, but it's just a replacement for when you have an unusual system that isn't reading your program from punch cards < 1681420598 775652 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, the change operator too, not just bookworm < 1681420604 737108 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, this reminded me of how C-INTERCAL accepts input encoded in either UTF-8 or Latin-1 or even mixed together in the same file, there are no clashes of byte sequences for characters that INTERCAL uses < 1681420627 160212 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but there is one clash of *character*, ¥ that does something different in C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL, and it determines the meaning based on which encoding it's encoded with < 1681420643 610113 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* C-INTERCAL determines < 1681420656 727264 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :er what < 1681420661 788384 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how does it have a different meaning? < 1681420674 227284 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I assume one of the meanings is the bookworm operator < 1681420678 532499 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in C-INTERCAL, all international currency symbols mean mingle < 1681420688 643269 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh! < 1681420694 670790 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :¢ being generalized to $, but also things like £ < 1681420700 786330 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that makes sense < 1681420707 416609 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and yes, bookworm is the other one < 1681421018 351563 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for languages that are ascii-based like bf or unlambda or underload or consumer society, I'd just expect an ascii-compatible encoding, and the most I'd do with specific non-ascii encodings is allow some non-ascii whitespace as whitespace, such as an utf-8 byte order mark, or nul bytes for a pure-ascii file encoded as utf-16 < 1681421064 124994 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least in BF, it's probably OK to treat all high-bit-set bytes as comments – that gives correct behaviour whether the input is UTF-8 or some 8-bit character set < 1681421090 738667 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…and it also works if the input is the ASCII subset of UTF-16 (either of them), because the NULs are treated as comments < 1681421102 769495 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but not always for UTF-16 that contains non-ASCII characters) < 1681421117 87284 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and if there are characters/strings to print, as in unlambda/underload/consumer society, then I'll just copy raw bytes, which works if the output has the same encoding as the source file < 1681421207 308776 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though consumer society also has the rule that you can put any byte in a part of the code that's never evaluated, in those parts of the code only the balanced nesting of ascii bracket characters that matter > 1681421210 292893 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Stkptr14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108030&oldid=108029 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+90) 10 < 1681421218 993762 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd do the same for underload parenthesis too < 1681421268 336959 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :only when you actually try to evaluate the function with unknown bytes you get an error < 1681421300 404129 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this lets you write comments in any ascii-compatible encoding, as well as use syntactical extensions conditionally on them being supported < 1681421346 899532 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or write polyglots of course > 1681421749 92470 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Stkptr14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108031&oldid=108030 5* 03Stkptr 5* (+162) 10 < 1681421850 753515 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but there are modern esolangs like Brachylog and Jelly which do use non-ascii characters in an essential way in their syntax, so for those you must figure out what encoding the source files are in < 1681421865 364025 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Brachylog and Jelly each define their own encodings < 1681421881 504924 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, and they do that because they want to be golf languages, unlike intercal < 1681421885 601217 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and at least Jelly's isn't fully ASCII-compatible IIRC, I think it has newline in a weird place < 1681421891 25147 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's why they use non-ascii characters too < 1681421908 230649 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yep: https://github.com/DennisMitchell/jellylanguage/wiki/Code-page has newline at 0x7F < 1681421911 36978 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so that they can have more than just 128 characters to work with < 1681421920 791396 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whereas the usual 0x0A is ½ < 1681421921 432269 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: what's at 0x10? < 1681421927 532765 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :um < 1681421930 756131 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at 0x0A, yes < 1681421940 91307 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :0x10 is Ñ but i think you mixed up decimal and hexadecimal < 1681421957 340403 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, 0x10 is control-P in ascii < 1681422462 132614 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/DennisMitchell/jellylanguage/wiki/Code-page says "The character ¶ and the linefeed character can be used interchangeably, although it is advised to use a linefeed to separate links, and a pilcrow inside string literals.", where ¶ is the one encoded as 0x7F < 1681422535 263802 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, maybe not, maybe that sentence applies only when the program is utf-8 encoded < 1681422667 531311 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that many file formats should not need to care about encoding a long as it is extended ASCII, but sometimes it might matter. (And, in some cases, restricting it for security might be helpful; this is useful in C if your program does not use any non-ASCII literals/comments (you can still use non-ASCII text if you put them in separate files and load them using #embed or at runtime)) < 1681422772 468052 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I could assign code page numbers for Jelly, etc if needed; I have already assigned one for Brachylog. (These code page numbers all exceed 65535, so that the lower numbers will be those assigned by IBM) < 1681422861 420710 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Will C-INTERCAL or any other esolang have implementation of any variant of TRON code (such as TRON-8, TRON-16, or EUC-TRON)? < 1681422994 647754 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: is that the kind of code page numbers that windows uses, or the kind that the IANA tracks in https://www.iana.org/assignments/character-sets/character-sets.xhtml ? or are those two in the same namespace actually? < 1681423048 236110 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Microsoft's numbers are usually 4 digits, and IBM's normally 3 digits < 1681423055 432340 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Windows uses Microsoft code page numbers, some of which are different from IBM code page numbers. < 1681423072 761287 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder whether that's an intentional choice to avoid clashes, or whether there's some other reason < 1681423084 824165 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I think Microsoft have a 5-digit code page number for UTF-8? < 1681423088 454300 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Although some of them are the same, such as 437 for the PC character set.) < 1681423114 322466 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :437 is one of the few codepage numbers that many people have memorised even today, it's very well known < 1681423116 626236 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think there was like one number that is used as the name of two different character sets, but probably only as a name, not in one of those numbering plans < 1681423129 522483 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :UTF-8 is codepage 65001, apparently < 1681423142 401674 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes. Microsoft uses 65001 for UTF-8, and IBM uses 1209. < 1681423142 773684 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is a suspiciously-valued number, being just below 65535 and having an 001 at the end < 1681423145 478653 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, and I think they have a five-digit number for utf-16 too < 1681423170 79757 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :65000, perhaps? < 1681423203 332925 :JAA!~JAA@user/jaa PRIVMSG #esolangs :65000 is UTF-7. :-) < 1681423208 257119 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(that's a guess based on UTF-8's number) < 1681423217 922831 :JAA!~JAA@user/jaa PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/intl/code-page-identifiers < 1681423223 469451 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1681423251 674663 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_code_page looks like the windows ones aren't in the same namespace as the IANA ones, in particular 37 clashes < 1681423282 822541 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ISO-8859-1 is 28591? wow, I'd expect it to be much lower < 1681423285 390838 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_code_page#Unicode-related_code_pages < 1681423290 723634 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's, like, the best-known 8-bit character set < 1681423314 69824 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I'm surprised UTF-7 has one at all < 1681423326 546082 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that seems like a compatibility (and security) nightmare < 1681423345 676374 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I seem to remember some security bugs related to writing text that autodetected as UTF-7 in order to get around filters < 1681423348 220978 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, but these numbers are mostly for character sets used in terminal windows, where you usually use 437-like character sets such as 852 and 850, not ones like 1252 or iso-8859-1 < 1681423351 693208 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(because the filters were interpreting it as ASCII) < 1681423374 903730 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :iso-8859-1 is a common encoding for terminals, there's even a control code for it < 1681423402 946200 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: for unix terminals, sure, not for windows terminals I think < 1681423414 656856 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :IBM uses 819 for ISO-8859-1. However, Windows uses an extension of ISO-8859-1, which is 1252 in both IBM and Microsoft, I think. < 1681423441 940110 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, and the HTML standard even says something along the lines of "if a web page claims to be in ISO-8859-1, you should assume it's actually in Windows-1252" < 1681423461 431476 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :presumably because ISO-8859-1 is a subset of the printable characters of Windows-1252 and this is a common mistake in encoding declarations < 1681423485 850392 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also apparently no character set registry contains the old windows-1252, from before windows made the revised version that adds the euro sign and the romanian letters < 1681423488 368996 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Bunch of Finnish IRC channels used ISO-8859-15. < 1681423510 84249 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :old windows-1250 and old windows-1252 both, the romanian letters are in the former < 1681423510 948718 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :("The one with €.") < 1681423539 467349 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm trying to remember which letters are Romanian: ș and ț? < 1681423554 654871 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: yeah, I used to be on an irc channel that had iso-8859-2 as the standard, and then eventually switched to utf-8 < 1681423558 644840 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, those two < 1681423580 596079 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm kind-of surprised that I figured out how to type them within two tries < 1681423594 254145 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I somehow purged UTF-7 from my memory < 1681423609 230484 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is it just me that's having trouble parsing it, or is this sentence from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_8859-15 somehow weird: "This encoding is by far most used, close to half the use, by German, though this is the least used encoding for German." < 1681423646 296704 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is not normal English phrasing, and I'm not convinced it's even correct < 1681423663 154978 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…should be "used most" not "most used" < 1681423669 510816 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I'm wrong about that, neither cp1250 nor cp1252 has the disunified romanian letters < 1681423681 193029 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and even then, the grammar is ridiculously convoluted and I'm not convinced there isn't another mistake < 1681423692 974562 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think they added some character besides the euro into at least one of them, but even just the euro makes them different charsets > 1681423707 658775 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108032&oldid=108026 5* 03Stkptr 5* (-63) 10/* Proof of Turing completeness */ Fix PMMN dec logic < 1681423737 564073 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's a latin-1 variant with the euro sign in and otherwise minimal changes, isn't there? < 1681423766 636636 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's pretty much what ISO-8859-15 (Latin 9) is. < 1681423850 815027 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It replaces the generic currency symbol ¤ with €, and does six other substitutions, replacing less commonly needed symbols with, for want of a better word, more langugage-y letters. < 1681423891 659074 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, ISO-8859-15 is based on ISO-8859-1 but has the euro sign and some more letters; and ISO-8859-16 is a modified version of ISO-8859-2 but has the euro sign and some more letters including the disunified romanian letters, which explains what I was confusing the cp1252 thing with < 1681423912 704845 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when was the euro sign even invented? < 1681423955 836920 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Apparently in 1996, by being selected from a set of 30 different proposals. < 1681423960 449239 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :12 December 1996, according to Wikipedia < 1681423967 930806 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :"The other designs that were considered are not available for the public to view, nor is any information regarding the designers available for public query." < 1681423968 158433 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, wrong question, when was its invention *published* < 1681423975 403788 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :1996, ok < 1681424028 407801 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the euro sign very much postdates cp1252 and cp1250 as used in windows-16 fonts < 1681424060 914881 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Apparently there's some dude who says they had the idea for the current symbol 25 years earlier. < 1681424092 558624 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the € character may actually have been a useful driver for adoption of non-8-bit character sets, come to think of it < 1681424103 563856 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: that sounds suspicious because that would be well before the fall of the iron curtain < 1681424125 436791 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because it postdates them being invented and forces a change, and it might have encouraged a change to something more general < 1681424224 831029 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, I just noticed ASCII also has a codepage number, and it's 20127 < 1681424227 268639 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I heard that one of the 90s video cards was invented by someone who wanted to use thai letters on PC < 1681424236 629836 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :seems fairly arbitrary, although the "127" may be meaningful < 1681424325 486448 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because the existing video cards had the font burned into ROM and unchangable < 1681424338 253190 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, the ones available < 1681424387 194000 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :may be 80s instead of 90s < 1681424438 213546 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm old enough to remember text-mode VGA consoles – I'm not sure whether modern computers even emulate them, though, there are definitely text consoles but they seem to be handled by the OS rather than the firmware/hardware < 1681424458 641805 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've got one of those 20x4 character LCDs here, and it has 240 of its 256 characters in ROM, and then 40 bytes of "CGRAM", into which you can write 8 unique 5x8 bitmaps as extra characters. (The remaining 8 are just duplicate copies of those 8.) < 1681424458 856938 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :But the IBM code page number for purely ASCII is 367. < 1681424510 122297 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, I used text-mode VGA console back when my pentium CPU was too slow so updating even a fast X terminal when scrolling text quickly was noticably laggy < 1681424518 850089 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also not running X would save RAM < 1681424576 737880 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when I was brute-forcing NetHack to find an RNG seed where the character would die immediately, I was at one point using both a Linux laptop, and a Windows computer running NetHack in DOS mode, simultaneously < 1681424595 731412 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :You could do 132x50 text mode resolutions at least sometimes, as I recall. < 1681424599 289528 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the DOS terminal somehow ended up having bits get stuck across the entire screen < 1681424622 776470 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, e.g., the redness bit would be turned off for every character and so the text would display in cyan < 1681424628 963915 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have used custom text video modes (including 30x80 at 90 hertz), and custom text omde fonts (including dynamically modifying a font for smooth scrolling text) < 1681424642 714541 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it got really weird when the 1s bit of the ASCII code got turned off, though, so e.g. 'e' would display as 'd' < 1681424649 969827 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have no idea what caused that sort of failure mode < 1681424665 899699 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :after that I stopped brute-forcing on the Windows computer and just used the laptop < 1681424680 167018 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: that sounds odd < 1681424692 827291 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it was very odd < 1681424699 369136 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I didn't put much effort into trying to reproduce < 1681424727 204772 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've seen funny text mode visual glitches when I tried to determine what was the highest refresh rate that my video card could handle without such glitches < 1681424744 278510 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I didn't see the event that caused the issue to start, just came to the computer after a few hours and saw that all the characters with odd ASCII codes were displaying as the character before < 1681424745 66627 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I used to have a DEC serial terminal under the table for guests to IRC on, and it could do 132-column modes too. It also had a built-in calculator, and copy-paste functionality, and a few other tricks. < 1681424745 520755 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've seen occasionally glitches at 100 Hz but not at 95 Hz, so I went with 90 Hz to be safe < 1681424753 273574 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Then it caught on fire, but that wasn't really a feature. < 1681424797 668134 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :After the smoke came out of it, it no longer worked, as is often the case. < 1681424806 39919 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but what you report doesn't sound similar to the glitches that you've seen, plus I don't think you used a higher than normal clock speed for this < 1681424853 301222 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: did it come with a paper tape reader attached? < 1681424865 929360 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I considered that it might be some sort of rowhammerish hardware memory corruption, but I'd expect that to be fixed as the memory was being continuously written to < 1681424868 55266 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :There were also definitely DOS .com executables that reprogrammed the VGA text mode font, because I had the Descent font as one of those. < 1681424904 759057 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I'm expecting to be some sort of software feature that was intended to mask memory, and somehow got activated accidentally or erroneously to do something weird < 1681424913 298607 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* expecting it to be < 1681424930 326126 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think it had a tape reader. It was a... VT420, maybe. < 1681424979 514197 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :An actual "hard" status line, though. < 1681424985 571765 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if it was just some characters showing up in incorrect color then I'd assume it's a bug in nethack, but with the low bit of the character stuck on the whole screen that sounds unlikely < 1681424986 337544 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :You could make `screen` use that. < 1681425846 526162 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: the windows computer running nethack, was that 16-bit windows in 386 mode, or 32-bit windows? < 1681425878 581195 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also is nethack on DOS a real mode program or does it use a 32-bit dos extender? < 1681425932 850442 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm just curious unrelated to the screen glitch < 1681426044 105027 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it was either Windows 95 or 98 I think < 1681426063 712129 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it uses a DOS extender nowadays, and I think it did even at the time < 1681426069 914519 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(that I was brute-forcing) < 1681426149 25266 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :What happens in Magic: the Gathering if a battle has multiple subtypes? (This is not possible with current rules but might be relevant with unofficial cards) < 1681426228 952403 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also totally unrelated: libcurl question. if you reuse a CURL handle for multiple HTTP queries, does it default to saving cookies from previous queries and sending them in subsequent queries (if the domain matches), or does it default to sending no cookies? and if the former, what's the proper way to ask it to not send remembered cookies, and is it calling curl_easy_setopt(curl, CURLOPT_COOKIELIST, < 1681426234 960818 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"ALL") each time between queries? < 1681426244 382045 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd probably better TIAS than ask here, mind you < 1681426270 413099 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I see < 1681426443 985647 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, there's a HTTP-COOKIES.md.gz file in the documentation that I missed, that might asnwer this < 1681426570 479130 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait... "Cookies are set to the client with the Set-Cookie: header and are sent to servers with the Cookie: header." -- what? I thought they were sent to the server with the Cookie2 header. HTTP is getting too opaquely magical for me. < 1681426590 503582 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's just so much web tech stuff that I can't follow anymore < 1681426674 371480 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :WWW is really messy now anyways, regardless of which header < 1681426778 117338 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, I just looked up my very old cbriver script, and it sends the Cookie header, not the Cookie2 header < 1681426834 720477 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Cookie2 does exist, but is an old field that's not used anymore apparently < 1681426897 117858 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that document doesn't answer my question < 1681429434 395480 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.214.205.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl QUIT : < 1681429560 790869 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Quit: brb < 1681429844 878340 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.32.126 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1681429893 109578 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her)