< 1681862785 746717 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1681862800 688388 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1681864385 693206 :m0ther!~utoneq@user/utoneq QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1681865933 754103 :m0ther!~utoneq@user/utoneq JOIN #esolangs zut :utoneq < 1681867552 234628 :m0ther!~utoneq@user/utoneq QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1681867597 104730 :m0ther!~utoneq@user/utoneq JOIN #esolangs zut :utoneq < 1681867858 281763 :m0ther!~utoneq@user/utoneq QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1681867879 695675 :m0ther!~utoneq@user/utoneq JOIN #esolangs zut :utoneq < 1681872039 415384 :m0ther!~utoneq@user/utoneq QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1681877070 791800 :m0ther!~utoneq@user/utoneq JOIN #esolangs zut :utoneq < 1681879424 139445 :example99!~example99@2001:9e8:e1ec:6c00:8ff8:d0e9:2ad8:d5de JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] example99 < 1681879909 379050 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Should uxn be mentioned in esolangs wiki? (There is already mention of Forth, MMIX, etc, so it might be worth, maybe?) Uxn has two stacks, and most instructions (except JCI and JSI) have a variant that operates on the other stack. Uxn also has hand signs for each instruction and for each number (I am unaware of anyone using them). There are other features too. < 1681880786 869475 :bgs!~bgs@212-85-160-171.dynamic.telemach.net JOIN #esolangs bgs :bgs < 1681883403 132851 :example99!~example99@2001:9e8:e1ec:6c00:8ff8:d0e9:2ad8:d5de QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1681883451 240130 :m0ther!~utoneq@user/utoneq QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1681883547 188371 :m0ther!~utoneq@user/utoneq JOIN #esolangs zut :utoneq < 1681884736 204954 :m0ther!~utoneq@user/utoneq QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds > 1681884950 646808 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Peter14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108208&oldid=100680 5* 03Peter 5* (-4) 10 > 1681884977 32901 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ricochet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108209&oldid=103437 5* 03Peter 5* (-18) 10 > 1681887286 253463 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nori.io14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108210&oldid=108157 5* 03Olus2000 5* (-28) 10Remove 1st header > 1681887320 271253 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nori.io14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108211&oldid=108210 5* 03Olus2000 5* (-15) 10 < 1681888523 152258 :m0ther!~utoneq@user/utoneq JOIN #esolangs zut :utoneq > 1681890019 205780 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nori.io14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108212&oldid=108211 5* 03Mkukiro 5* (+24) 10 < 1681891957 63661 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1681895897 235488 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown < 1681896637 860115 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@user/kspalaiologos JOIN #esolangs kspalaiologos :Kamila < 1681897871 855931 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@user/kspalaiologos QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1681898776 290363 :m0ther!~utoneq@user/utoneq QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1681899172 178900 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@user/kspalaiologos JOIN #esolangs kspalaiologos :Kamila < 1681900289 687423 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@user/kspalaiologos QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1681900322 559385 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :tromp: could a BLC program check proofs & encode godel 1st and we could get a nice small G? < 1681900920 91148 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, that sounds similar to what https://arxiv.org/abs/1605.04343 did but for BLC instead of TMs < 1681900989 795312 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :certainly BLC seems much better suited for that than TMs > 1681902406 575514 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nori.io14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108213&oldid=108212 5* 03Mkukiro 5* (+28) 10 < 1681902425 279819 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :i wonder what is the absolute simplest proof language to use < 1681902452 323417 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :lc gives you nice easy asts to work with, so that's nice > 1681904546 954100 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nori.io14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108214&oldid=108213 5* 03Olus2000 5* (+1912) 10Turing Completeness proof > 1681904598 886735 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nori.io14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108215&oldid=108214 5* 03Olus2000 5* (-1) 10/* Final program */ typo in expected input > 1681904616 835175 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nori.io14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108216&oldid=108215 5* 03Olus2000 5* (+1) 10/* Final program */ < 1681904757 137047 :example99!~example99@2001:9e8:e1ec:6c00:d5a4:c48a:b952:8b90 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] example99 < 1681904779 172306 :example99!~example99@2001:9e8:e1ec:6c00:d5a4:c48a:b952:8b90 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi < 1681906118 127218 :example99!~example99@2001:9e8:e1ec:6c00:d5a4:c48a:b952:8b90 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds > 1681906574 491440 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nori.io14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108217&oldid=108216 5* 03Olus2000 5* (+1) 10/* Production encoding */ gap in code block < 1681909084 152123 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in < 1681909278 801064 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron < 1681909947 516581 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3+b4 - https://znc.in < 1681909947 733938 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3+b4 - https://znc.in < 1681912272 878807 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1681912610 768850 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron < 1681914165 433551 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in < 1681914183 911988 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron < 1681914225 515104 :fowl!~fowlmouth@user/fowl PRIVMSG #esolangs :how about an esolang based on project management? perform calculations by opening and closing tickets? just talking about it I already want to off myself < 1681914292 178389 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol < 1681914295 5970 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :good idea < 1681914317 572647 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could try to develop programs with high bus factor < 1681914321 667924 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :(on that topic) < 1681914344 807155 :river!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :kinda regret joking about that now < 1681914513 123832 :wpa!uid568065@id-568065.helmsley.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1681915346 862878 :fowl!~fowlmouth@user/fowl PRIVMSG #esolangs :my company has an HR tool I use to track objectives with my boss that exists completely outside of jira, I'm trying to argue that I should be able to track my work with just one of these not both < 1681915712 592385 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in < 1681915731 628968 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron < 1681915981 995818 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Gantt charts as sourcc code: discuss. < 1681916497 624572 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1681916818 241223 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in < 1681916894 139544 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron < 1681917078 51812 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Client Quit < 1681917336 456356 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron < 1681917377 376710 :wpa!uid568065@id-568065.helmsley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs WeepingAngel :wpa < 1681918668 127322 :example99!~example99@2001:9e8:e1ec:6c00:9d64:b454:2d96:2cb JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] example99 < 1681918736 767612 :example99!~example99@2001:9e8:e1ec:6c00:9d64:b454:2d96:2cb PART :#esolangs < 1681918737 263378 :example99!~example99@2001:9e8:e1ec:6c00:9d64:b454:2d96:2cb JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] example99 < 1681918849 431104 :example99!~example99@2001:9e8:e1ec:6c00:9d64:b454:2d96:2cb PRIVMSG #esolangs :n < 1681920500 712716 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in < 1681920571 826616 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.214.205.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull < 1681920578 274109 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1681921843 1653 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in < 1681921937 129696 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in < 1681922313 512544 :example99!~example99@2001:9e8:e1ec:6c00:9d64:b454:2d96:2cb QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1681922783 768989 :vyv!~vyv@bras-vprn-nrbaon0452w-lp130-22-76-65-6-194.dsl.bell.ca JOIN #esolangs vyv :vyv verver < 1681929438 833952 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have a question. Say you're given a planar map that's shown on a computer screen, and it has pointlike selectable sprites scattered on it. I'd like a UI where the user can navigate between these sprites so that they can select any one they want, using a four-way d-pad or arrow keys. But I don't want this to work like a mouse cursor that you move freely on the map, instead it should just move from a < 1681929444 852485 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sprite to a nearby sprite when you press a direction. And it should be intuitive, so the selection moves roughly in the direction that you pressed and it's easy to figure out what you have to press to select any sprite you want. Is there a solution for this? You can preprocess the map, you can display extra info on the screen, and if you want you can cheat by having hidden state, or allowing the user to < 1681929450 846203 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :select some synthetic nodes that aren't real sprites, but not so many that it just moves a mouse cursor freely on a dense grid. < 1681929537 193707 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm asking because there are games that are controlled by a game controller (not mouse) and conspiciously don't do this, but either allow free cursor movement, or just make you navigate through the nodes in a flat order. < 1681930592 197439 :vyv!~vyv@bras-vprn-nrbaon0452w-lp130-22-76-65-6-194.dsl.bell.ca QUIT :Quit: Konversation terminated! < 1681930817 665711 :decay!sid553797@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :are we talking new or old games. < 1681930842 599705 :decay!sid553797@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :old games I can see it as a design decision for lots of selectable things. < 1681930865 905317 :decay!sid553797@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you have, say, 100 things on screen, how do you know which one is the closest. < 1681930889 946074 :decay!sid553797@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :computationally it's probably not worth it. < 1681930934 678504 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: So... like DVD menu navigation? :-) < 1681931002 299825 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The main problem I experience with that when it's not visibly a grid is that very often, you can't undo a right move by doing a left move. > 1681931041 51270 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Emanator14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=108218 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+3923) 10+[[Emanator]] < 1681931050 39645 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh and I also imagine that a naive best-effort implementation can easily make some points unreachable. > 1681931060 770490 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108219&oldid=108169 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+15) 10+[[Emanator]] < 1681931072 61556 :decay!sid553797@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah. > 1681931073 393425 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hakerh40014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108220&oldid=107525 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+15) 10+[[Emanator]] < 1681931074 646826 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :On DVD you could also use numbers though, as well as selection by cursor. (However, the menu does not always make it clear what numbers to use, unfortunately) I think that numbered menus would be good for some kinds of things though. And, I think DVD menus can't have 100 things on screen at once; I think I read once they are limited to 64 items per page? < 1681931107 175912 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :But, I know what you mean that they are not all arranged neatly and you have to push the direction to move the cursor; for example, the map in Pokemon Card GB2 is like that. I would hope there would be a better way to do it. > 1681931179 848276 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Emanator14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108221&oldid=108218 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (-53) 10 < 1681931188 448313 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: So... I don't know. I think the d-pad-like-a-mouse thing is done because point-hopping is hard. < 1681931220 192527 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially if the targets aren't fixed. < 1681931236 755732 :decay!sid553797@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh hell yeah. < 1681931238 930605 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't really like the "d-pad-like-a-mouse" much either though < 1681931243 513669 :decay!sid553797@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you're selecting units in a game. < 1681931247 659999 :decay!sid553797@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :and you have 100 units. < 1681931260 80681 :decay!sid553797@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :to pick the shortest distance, you need some overlay structure that you update/can query. < 1681931275 977602 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :This vaguely reminds me of the challenges / navigation strategies of XMonad directional navigation. < 1681931277 799580 :decay!sid553797@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :quadtree or something to limit your reach. < 1681931281 462198 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://hackage.haskell.org/package/xmonad-contrib-0.17.1/docs/XMonad-Actions-Navigation2D.html for details. < 1681931316 652921 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :decay: you probably need to provision some extra dummy target points... so overlay a kind of grid... < 1681931330 476392 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :quadtree... is probably not very intuitive < 1681931344 187043 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or maybe I should address b_jonas for this? < 1681931351 83456 :decay!sid553797@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :not intuitive for the user but necessary for fast lookups. < 1681931369 237030 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It doesn't consider performance (generally not an issue with windows), but it does have bunch of detail -- including in https://web.cs.dal.ca/~nzeh/xmonad/Navigation2D.pdf -- about reachability and such. < 1681931373 278335 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, as an internal data structure, sure. < 1681931375 373111 :decay!sid553797@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah. < 1681931377 973836 :decay!sid553797@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :not user-facing. < 1681931412 267375 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the user-facing aspects of this seem to be the harder ones > 1681931438 879391 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Emanator14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108222&oldid=108221 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+36) 10 < 1681931445 23121 :decay!sid553797@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could do with some kind of dynamic directional display. < 1681931448 742088 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can't really tell you what is or isn't "intuitive" here. All I really have is bad user experiences. < 1681931474 453789 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you have to select between 100 units, then I might prefer prefer to make it you can type a 2-digit number, although that won't do for a game pad without numbers. For computer with mouse, you could use the mouse, but that also won't do if you don't have that. For Nintendo DS, the touch screen could be used, with the pencil (it is not as bad as touching it by hand; still I prefer keyboard than touch screen generally) < 1681931479 344944 :decay!sid553797@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you're controlling it via a D-pad, you have four possible buttons. < 1681931483 458633 :decay!sid553797@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :which means 4 possible jumps. < 1681931494 631042 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's easy to end up in a navigation strategy that makes it impossible to reach a particular point. For example, the line navigation of Navigation2D isn't 'complete' for arbitrary set of rectangles tiling the screen. < 1681931498 319817 :decay!sid553797@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, draw a few colored lines from your selected unit to the one you'd jump to. < 1681931521 561879 :decay!sid553797@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :one per D-pad direction. < 1681931543 855853 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, that would be much better and less confusing than not showing you. < 1681931569 289669 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the d-pad-as-mouse approach does solve the "intuitive" portion of the problem convincingly < 1681931577 384621 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's just a PITA to actually use < 1681931581 465376 :decay!sid553797@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah lol. < 1681931590 622028 :decay!sid553797@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, d-pads in general suck. < 1681931773 323685 :A_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon QUIT :Killed (A_Dragon (She told me to do it)) < 1681931796 461529 :A_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon JOIN #esolangs ad :Roy Mustang, The Flame Alchemist < 1681931822 538052 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The Navigation2D paper claims its center navigation "is one of the most natural navigation strategies that can easibly be shown to be complete", though with no particular evidence for it. < 1681931830 334196 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think d-pads in general can be OK in cases where it is sensible, but that is not always the case; sometimes they have to be used even though something else would be much better < 1681931880 762391 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Drawing lines from the cursor to the other objects that you can move adjacent to, seem like it would help a bit in the circumstance where it is necssary to fit it with these controls because you do not have any better controls < 1681933077 23450 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Can the hyperreals be projectively extended with a point at infinity? So then there's omega which is infinite and a bunch of stuff, yet another infinity "greater" than it (might not make sense to compare, I don't know if ordering works when there's an unsigned infinity) < 1681933126 650401 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Huh. < 1681933127 758872 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://u.math.biu.ac.il/~katzmik/88-132.html < 1681933139 338474 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Question 1. Does infinity belong to the hyperreals? < 1681933139 458496 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Answer. The infinity symbol ∞ is often added to the reals in calculus and analysis courses. The resulting number system is sometimes called the extended reals. This extended number system is of course not a field, and is not related to the hyperreals. The hyperreals form a field that contains many infinite elements, but the infinity symbol is not one of them. One can also adjoin the infinity symbol to the hyperreal line, resulting in an extended hyperrea < 1681933139 483011 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :l line. I am not sure we will need this in the course but if we do it will be signaled appropriately. < 1681933398 820131 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: projective extensions aren't ordered even if you start with an ordered field... the infinity glues the positive numbers to the negative numbers. < 1681934068 200328 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1681934268 637331 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron < 1681936445 950046 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"can't undo a right move by doing a left move" => yes, that's why you need hidden state, just like many text editors have when you keep pressing the down arrow button from a long line to a short line to a long line < 1681936503 948598 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: here I'm assuming that the sprite locations are fixed < 1681936631 655420 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: thanks for the link < 1681936664 450830 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: but with hidden state it becomes less predictable < 1681936709 755667 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(which is kind of almost synonymous to "intuitive") < 1681936844 204089 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the text editor that remembers the visual column when you go through a short line (or a line that has a multi-cell character) is intuitive. < 1681936867 548101 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I don't think it is necessarily less intuitive < 1681936881 242936 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it might turn out to be not necessary < 1681936981 210342 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Hmm, I guess you have a point there... I guess state that is forgotton once you change from vertical to horizontal movement is okay. < 1681937009 299623 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that xmonad article is kind of a different though related task, I am asking about point-like (small) sprites < 1681937021 314134 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the article is about windows that needn't be small < 1681937646 436074 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :windows also tend to be relatively low in numbers < 1681937837 924174 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: How would you tackle https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/nav5.png :-/ < 1681937880 646446 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(so sprites in a 5 pattern from a die) < 1681937902 996006 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's adversarial, of course. < 1681937995 716142 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it /might/ just be best to add extra navigation points in that case, https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/nav5h.png < 1681938044 952855 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But maybe I'm pushing that particular idea too hard... there needs to be a visual indicator of those extra point's existence at least. < 1681938513 186240 :wpa!uid568065@id-568065.helmsley.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1681939499 584269 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: my idea was that in general I cluster the points to a hierarchical tree structure where the depths are alternatingly horizontal and vertical (the depth isn't uniform). I'm not sure this would allow an intuitive enough navigation of course. so those five points would probably either be broken to three rows so you can only go to/from the center point with the up/down buttons, or to three columns so < 1681939505 592836 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can go to/from the center point only with left/right, but this is right on the boundary of which one of the two they're separated in. < 1681939531 485345 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :some navigation overlays could probably help this, showing with little arrowheads how far the left/right/up/down keys go < 1681939705 43447 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also there'd be hidden state, so if this is three rows then if you press down twice from the top left point you go the bottom left, but if you press down twice from the top right point then you go to bottom right, even though they both go through the center point < 1681939750 567563 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a tree structure would guarantee that every point is reachable, the question is how intuitive it is to the user how to go to a point < 1681939902 127597 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the hidden state also helps in that if you press down then either the selection doesn't move or you can press up to return to your previous point < 1681939930 546772 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if it's not quite intuitive how to navigate then it's important that you can undo mistakes easily, at least in the short term < 1681939942 292732 :b_jonas!~x@89.134.29.3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(longer sequences of keypress aren't always invertible) > 1681940307 244668 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Omicron14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108223&oldid=107801 5* 03DrKilobyte 5* (+13) 10/* Instructions */ > 1681940331 49966 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Omicron14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108224&oldid=108223 5* 03DrKilobyte 5* (-5) 10/* Instructions */ > 1681940388 496375 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Omicron14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108225&oldid=108224 5* 03DrKilobyte 5* (+7) 10/* Truth machine */ > 1681940666 337686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Omicron14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108226&oldid=108225 5* 03DrKilobyte 5* (+146) 10/* Examples */ > 1681940682 295912 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Omicron14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108227&oldid=108226 5* 03DrKilobyte 5* (+18) 10/* Fibonacci sequence */ > 1681941011 258800 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Omicron14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108228&oldid=108227 5* 03DrKilobyte 5* (+1) 10/* Examples */ < 1681943596 313877 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1681947188 43040 :FreeFull!~freefull@46.205.214.205.nat.ftth.dynamic.t-mobile.pl QUIT : < 1681947432 58548 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in < 1681947644 779601 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron