←2023-04-23 2023-04-24 2023-04-25→ ↑2023 ↑all
00:07:00 <esolangs> [[Plurple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108380&oldid=93806 * Laclale * (-10) /* Commands */
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12:55:21 <example99> hi
12:56:06 <esolangs> [[BrainFn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108381&oldid=108376 * Example99 * (+1)
14:15:59 <esolangs> [[Foreach]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108382&oldid=108375 * Ashli Katt * (+199) /* Examples */
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16:33:23 <esolangs> [[Untitled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108383&oldid=108187 * Dtp09 * (+1774) Added a table for the commands and characters
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17:08:28 <river> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differentiable_neural_computer
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17:10:42 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_term
17:27:48 <Vorpal> I should probably just brand the current version of cfunge as 1.0. But I also plan to switch to decimal versioning for cfunge from 1.0 onwards (not that there is likely to be any other release than 1.0). Basically the idea is that 1.15 would be between 1.1 and 1.2
17:27:58 <Vorpal> fizzie: ^
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17:37:01 <Vorpal> Also, I'll use decimal comma, instead of decimal dot
17:38:37 <esolangs> [[Trainfck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108384&oldid=107374 * Mujk * (+77)
17:39:04 <esolangs> [[Trainfck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108385&oldid=108384 * Mujk * (+6)
17:39:24 <esolangs> [[Trainfck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=108386&oldid=108385 * Mujk * (+3)
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18:02:20 <Vorpal> fizzie: I did it, I release version 1,0 of cfunge
18:02:53 <Vorpal> https://github.com/VorpalBlade/cfunge/tree/master#version-number-scheme :D
18:03:22 <Vorpal> hm ais523 isn't here, he might get a kick out of that versioning scheme, considering what he was doing with C-INTERCAL
18:09:12 <int-e> as long as we're not reinventing BASIC line numbers
18:09:36 <Vorpal> int-e: heh, I do reserve the right to use fractions or even arbitrary real numbers in the future though
18:26:06 <fizzie> TeX and Metafont version numbers converge towards π and e, respectively.
18:26:12 <fizzie> Adding one more digit per release.
18:26:42 <fizzie> Current stable releases are 3.141592653 and 2.71828182.
18:27:15 <int-e> and there's a morbid question of when they'll switch to pi and e, respectively.
18:28:41 <fizzie> Yeah. http://www.ntg.nl/maps/05/34.pdf "At the time of my death, it is my intention that the then-current versions of TeX and METAFONT be forever left unchanged, except that the final version numbers -- should become -- `$\pi$` -- and -- `$e$` respectively."
18:29:02 <fizzie> ("From that moment on, all 'bugs' will be permanent 'features'.")
18:33:59 <Vorpal> I wonder how realistic that is. Still probably needs occasional fixes to compile on newer systems etc.
18:34:49 <Vorpal> int-e: I wonder what the version number "equivalent" of BASIC line numbers would be
18:37:23 <Vorpal> for the final version number of cfunge, I'd probably pick some uncomputable number. Like the busy beaver function.
18:37:35 <Vorpal> Like the value of*
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18:45:15 <b_jonas> fizzie: indeed, that's confirmed by https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/abcde.html in a slightly different phrasing: “My last will and testament for TeX and METAFONT is that their version numbers ultimately become $\pi$ and $e$, respectively. At that point they will be completely error-free by definition.”
18:47:25 <b_jonas> Computer Modern is not mentioned because it's already been frozen in 1992 in a by definition error-free state.
18:52:43 <b_jonas> There are actually four version numbers, and the previous statement mentions them too: “The latest and best TeX is currently version 3.141592653 (and plain.tex is version 3.1415926535); METAFONT is currently version 2.71828182 (and plain.mf is version 2.71).”, it's not clear what the last will and testament is for the plain templates.
18:54:44 <Vorpal> what about LaTeX? It is approaching 2e isn't it?
18:55:07 <b_jonas> Vorpal: no idea, but that one isn't controlled by Knuth so clearly doesn't figure into these statements
18:55:39 <Vorpal> true
18:58:12 <b_jonas> what I wonder is how TeX version pi would have to print its version number at startup. would it have to compute pi to arbitrary precision, printing digits successively, until it runs out of memory? that's possible for a program to do but would make TeX hard to use.
19:01:21 <int-e> wouldn't it just be symbolic
19:02:10 <int-e> version π, version pi, version \pi
19:02:24 <fizzie> I don't know if "fixes to compile on newer systems" would factor into the TeX version number, anyway. I think the version bumps only if the semantics change.
19:02:26 <fizzie> The version of TeX I have installed prints "This is TeX, Version 3.141592653 (TeX Live 2022/Debian)" and that last part may presumably change as needed even if the first part remains $\pi$.
19:03:04 <int-e> Oh yes, I really should've put $ signs around that
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19:23:42 <b_jonas> hmm, maybe the TeX version number would be pi, but at startup it just wouldn't print any version number, it would just say "This is TeX" as a badass boast that it's the definitive bugfree final version that has transcended the need for version numbers
19:40:20 <Vorpal> huh, someone packaged cfunge (for Arch AUR), and couldn't update it successfully (didn't build correctly without libbsd). So I have now released 1,001. And taken over maintaining the AUR package (since I use Arch anyway).
19:40:38 <Vorpal> (not that I will ever install it system wide)
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23:19:16 <ais523> oh, I missed Vorpal
23:19:58 <ais523> my first thought about that 1,0 was that there was a previous 1.0 and the comma had been incremented (but that doesn't work, comma is two spaces before period, not one afterwards)
23:20:02 <ais523> but having it as a decimal point makes sense
23:20:14 <ais523> the dot in the usual 1.0 acts like a thousands separator, after all
23:21:46 <ais523> maybe you would want to count backwards from period, you reach digits very quickly going forwards and that would be confusing
23:21:59 <ais523> 1.0 1-0 1,0 1+0 1*0 and so on
23:22:50 <fizzie> Vorpal's native country uses , as the decimal point, I believe.
23:22:53 <fizzie> Mine does, too.
23:23:43 <fizzie> I forget if we use a . for a thousands separator, though. Don't see it all that much.
23:23:44 <ais523> fizzie: yes, lots of countries do; my observation is that this is the interpretation that's consistent with the "." in "version 1.0" *not* being a decimal point
23:24:09 <ais523> I believe the standard is something along the lines of "comma or period for decimal point, thin space as a thousands separator" but I forget which standards body was responsible
23:24:18 <ais523> …and probably nobody listens to them anyway
23:24:59 <fizzie> Somebody's handly glibc locale explorer says we do use some kind of a space as a thousands separator.
23:24:59 <ais523> IPv4 addresses use periods in a similar fashion to thousands separators
23:25:13 <ais523> I've seen apostrophe as a thousands separator
23:25:31 <ais523> one commonly encountered brand of calculator did that, I think
23:25:55 <ais523> and I think maybe some programming language allows it? but most of the languages which allow thousands separators in source code use underscores
23:26:02 <fizzie> C++ allows ' (since C23) as a separator in numeric constants, though you can stick them in any place you like.
23:26:10 <fizzie> And there's a C23 proposal to follow C++ in this.
23:26:15 <fizzie> I agree underscores are more popular.
23:26:48 <fizzie> I'm sure there's any number of C and C++ syntax highlighters that get confused by a `1'000`.
23:31:52 <ais523> I wonder how many programming languages would parse ambiguously if space were added as a thousands separator?
23:32:15 <ais523> languages with C-like syntax might be able to handle it, I can't immediately think of a place where it's legal to write two numbers in a row
23:32:26 <ais523> obviously it's hopeless in languages with Haskell/OCaml-like syntax
23:34:12 <fizzie> Adjacent string literals get concatenated in C and C-like languages, so it would only make sense for adjacent number literals to be too.
23:34:43 <zzo38> Yes, I had just thought of that when you mentioned, too
23:34:51 <ais523> oh, there's linemarkers, which can have a form like «#1 "file.c" 1 2»
23:35:08 <ais523> but those aren't officially part of the language, just an implementation detail of the vast majority of C compilers in existence + many things that aren't even C compilers
23:35:20 <ais523> the polyglot starts with one
23:35:58 <zzo38> In syntaxes like Forth it will not work to use spaces in this way, but, in uxntal it will work as long as it does not have # at front (I think the same is true in C but for a very different reason)
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23:59:25 <b_jonas> ais523: the line markers that don't start with #line are ones that only appear in _preprocessed_ C source code, they're invalid before the preprocessor. the preprocessor emits them as it processes #include and #line and #if directives and expands multi-line macros etc
23:59:48 <b_jonas> ais523: so that wouldn't be a conflict if it was the preprocessor that concatenated the numbers
23:59:49 <ais523> b_jonas: nonetheless, lots and lots of programming languages accept them in input, even ones that have nothing to do with C
23:59:57 <ais523> (and even ones that don't use # as a comment marker)
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